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Jump In Point fix on Chaos - Jump Changes MUST READ

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TomB	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:00:00 - [1] Currently when you jump via stargate on Chaos you now arrive at the end of the stargate that leads back to the system you came from. Incoming player appears cloaked until he makes an action, tries to warp, activates module, logs out - the maximum cloaking period is currently set to 1 minute timer. Related to this: * Players warping to stargate arrive ~20km from stargate * Players jumping via stargate arrive ~15-20km from stargate * Jump range is now set at ~8km from stargate This needs well tested, please post about any bugs and comment on how this affects camping and blockades. Please keep flames and bad language out of this thread. "Where is my hat?"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:09:00 - [2] Question before I go get my brains bashed out on Chaos: How does Autopilot affect the jumpin cloaking? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:11:00 - [3] could you add a couple of seconds to the de-cloak, before modules start working? As it seems, this will give a huge advantage to the jumping in party, as they can select a target, and only decloak when they start the targetting cycle. the person already at the gate will get no warning whatsoever of hostilities, until it's too late. Naturally, I haven't had a chance to try this on chaos yet, so I'll hold my tongue for now. .
Ganja	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Ganja on 02/12/2003 21:22:57 Quote: * Players warping to stargate appear ~20km from stargate Are you saying that players will constantly warp in at 20km? Or will they warp in cloaked, and automatically decloak once they reach 20km? And if they warp in cloaked, will it apply like jumping in, whereas you stay cloaked until you make an action? Edit: Also, I realize this is a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong, I love this.. because it gives someone like myself with a crap computer to escape JIP camping. But, with the stargate changes, it will make afk autopilot a sinch..? I don't think you should come out of warp so close, if anything, I say it be around 40km. I realize this of course would come from me being a pirate, but well.. be open minded about the thought.. 20km is too close, I could care less if it prevented camping, but it allows AFK Traveling.
Drachir	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Drachir on 02/12/2003 21:31:32 Autopilot doesnt jump through gate or warp to next gate in route. edit: the "warp drive active" message doesnt seem to go away either.
Lola	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:32:00 - [6] Thanks, this sounds exactly like how gate to gate jumping should work. One thing though, with the jump distance set to 8k and the warp in distance set to 20k that is going to increase travel time. Would it be possible to speed up the time the warp tube animation is running so we can get the same overall travel times? Do was actually fly 2AU? Maybe the ships could accelerate up to 2AU faster? ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Gcuz	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:34:00 - [7] How about allowing a "setting" kinda like the setting for the auto-target back where we could preset how far in KM's we come out of warp to our intended target. Example: By default a ship would warp in to about 25km from a target (gate, roid, whatever) But, i could manualy override this and comeout of warp 50, 100, 150 KM's out to give myself a "buffer" to check out a area and decide weather or not to stay or run. I think that would give a element of supprise and chance that is lacking now plus would give BOTH sides some tactial room to manuver. I like to change to jump in "cloak" idea, as it will even the playing field a bit for people jumping in... but for same sector warping, allowing players to choose where they come out of warp, (WITHIN REASON) would be a nice feature.
Ganja	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:35:00 - [8] Also, with this new addition, if it does make it to TQ, will the sentry guns from .4 be removed again?
LeKjart	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:42:00 - [9] To clarify: When you warp towards a gate you now come up at about 20 km from the gate When you enter the solarsystem from a stargate you will end up on a random position in the range 15-20 km from the gate If you want to jump through the gate you must be around 8 km from it. Now, for those coming in the system, they will end up cloaked for a minute (except if they move). This allows them to look at their surroundings, but nothing else. If they want to jump right back, they have to sail (and thus vulnerable) to 8 km from the gate. If they want to warp, they will still have to align themselves to warp destination, which might take some time (especially for heavier ships). All of this should make it possible to have a fighting chance against campers, as well as forcing blockades. LeKjart LeadDesigner
Sirrah	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:44:00 - [10] Quote: * Players warping to stargate arrive ~20km from stargate Does this also apply to those that are using Instajumps BMs? If so, I would be greatly disappointed due to the amount of hauling that is currently needed to mine for megacyte or zydrine. In order to make this type of mining reasonable, you will need to: 1)Bring higher ores closer to stations for shorter hauls 2)Respawn the belts 3) Bring back Spod and Ark or 4) Leave Instajump BMs alone (this will kill PvP as it currently does) http://www.oberon-inc.com/

h4x0	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:45:00 - [11] Edited by: h4x0 on 02/12/2003 21:47:53 Why dont they just go ahead and take all the NPC's out of the game. Remove every single weapon while they are at it, so we can all have one big * mining party. This is stupid. Your going to eliminate pirating at all in this game. After that, no one will play, because what the hell is the point? I mean, you PUT sentry's in all of of the .4 - .1's, what the hell do you want us to do. That is basically the start of jump in camping anyway. If they wouldnt have done that, there wouldnt have been that many people doing it anyway. So now you are fixing jump in camping by making it even harder to catch anyone? You also said you would take off the microwarp driving before you come out of warp, well the way it is now it doesnt make a difference. Anyone can run a blockade if they arent just dumb, and are paying attention. 10 second invulnerability time, they can still use MWD, by the time we are actually able to lock on they are already jumping. Now you are telling me that you are gonna put them closer to the damned gate, and give us longer locking times so they can just laugh at us as they jump through. Thanks a lot for making the galaxy a safer piece of care bear **. ----------------------------------------------------------- Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass. Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
Artean	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Artean on 02/12/2003 21:55:57 Quote: Edited by: h4x0 on 02/12/2003 21:47:53 Why dont they just go ahead and take all the NPC's out of the game. Remove every single weapon while they are at it, so we can all have one big * mining party. This is stupid. Your going to eliminate pirating at all in this game. After that, no one will play, because what the hell is the point? I mean, you PUT sentry's in all of of the .4 - .1's, what the hell do you want us to do. That is basically the start of jump in camping anyway. If they wouldnt have done that, there wouldnt have been that many people doing it anyway. So now you are fixing jump in camping by making it even harder to catch anyone? You also said you would take off the microwarp driving before you come out of warp, well the way it is now it doesnt make a difference. Anyone can run a blockade if they arent just dumb, and are paying attention. 10 second invulnerability time, they can still use MWD, by the time we are actually able to lock on they are already jumping. Now you are telling me that you are gonna put them closer to the damned gate, and give us longer locking times so they can just laugh at us as they jump through. Thanks a lot for making the galaxy a safer piece of care bear **. Dont we get rid of the inv. timer with these new changes?
Shock	Posted - 2003.12.02 21:59:00 - [13] Sounds VEEEEERY nice!!! Only will the bookmarks still work? And perhaps the warpspeed or indycargohold (biggest issue with travelling times) should be increased to balance the increase of time. IMHO the accelerating/decelerating is quite OK. --- soonÖ
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Jash Illian on 02/12/2003 22:01:47 Quote: To clarify: When you warp towards a gate you now come up at about 20 km from the gate When you enter the solarsystem from a stargate you will end up on a random position in the range 15-20 km from the gate If you want to jump through the gate you must be around 8 km from it. Now, for those coming in the system, they will end up cloaked for a minute (except if they move). This allows them to look at their surroundings, but nothing else. If they want to jump right back, they have to sail (and thus vulnerable) to 8 km from the gate. If they want to warp, they will still have to align themselves to warp destination, which might take some time (especially for heavier ships). All of this should make it possible to have a fighting chance against campers, as well as forcing blockades. LeKjart LeadDesigner LeKjart, there's a problem if Sentry Guns remain as they are: Isk in Eve travels from Station to Station. That's a pirate's income. There aren't any significant revenue streams outside Empire space for pirates to intercept there (and there's a huge amount of space to cover as well). And belt piracy, pirating people in roid belts, is about as profitable as agent missions. And will become even less so with the limited range on webifiers/warp scramblers + lock timer changes. The ships most likely to warp into a belt, lock a target and webify/warp scramble to hold that ship hostage would be a frigate. But they still have to cross the distance from the warp entry point to the range of the webifier/warp scrambler. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:01:00 - [15] 20 km isn't really enough range to be able to effectively stop anything. 25-30 would be more realistic. If the invul is removed/reduced to <2secs, then it might not be a problem. As for the haulers who think this will suck - try rigging for speed, rather than greed ;) My bestower can break 1km/s... .
Ganja	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:02:00 - [16] Also, why not apply the cloaking effect to people who undock, just make it so their ship has stopped outside the station (atm you fly out). Some people get killed in JIP Camping not because they can't get away, but because they aren't given the chance to. Their computers nullify their chances to even run off, so why not the same effect for undocking ships? Just a suggestion..
Nightfang	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:03:00 - [17] Might be a bad change, might be a good change. It's a change, though - and that's taking a step forward. Glad things are finally beginning to develop! /Nightfang
Shock	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:07:00 - [18] Edited by: Shock on 02/12/2003 22:09:45 OK I smell the first exploit here. Imagine when a group of ships want to free a JIP (I don't know if this is still an issue with the sentry guns at the gates though). Normally they will first send in one or two 'shieldtanks' to do recon and draw fire and targetjams, after which the rest of the group jump in. Ofcourse this is not that different except now they can all jump in all at once, see what's happening, who's there, have almost a mminute to discuss who'll be locking who, let the shieldtanks break their cloak, wait till the defenders attack them and then completely roll over them in an organized fashion. Normally the defenders had the (huge) advantage, but this will, instead of making it even, completely flip the scale to the attackers IMHO. --- soonÖ
Dark Razer	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:14:00 - [19] TomB has already said that the 10 sec Invun was a temp. solution (as I recall), so that should be going. I like the new changes, should make it more interesting (and I'm a PvPer). I like the idea of the JIP being the jumpgate. One question I do have is, can the "jump in cloak" be broken by moving close to the cloaked ship, as per "normal" cloaking? It could lead to some interesting ambushes, where you lead an enemy force close to the gate, only to have some budys sitting in "jump cloak". shrugs Ether way, i think its going to be interesting. D_R **Curse Alliance Member
Shock	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:14:00 - [20] Edited by: Shock on 02/12/2003 22:15:32 Quote: 20 km isn't really enough range to be able to effectively stop anything. 25-30 would be more realistic. If the invul is removed/reduced to <2secs, then it might not be a problem. As for the haulers who think this will suck - try rigging for speed, rather than greed ;) My bestower can break 1km/s... Indeed. If that masked time would also be used in an adapted fashion (ships is travelling at normal speed or something) then there would no longer be need for the nvul timer at gates and fields so we could rid of that monster as well. In this case it's even bad, because the second someone breaks his cloak after having jumped in, the campers will have to be extremely quick to catch him before he goes into warp or MWD. --- soonÖ

NeoMorph	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:17:00 - [21] I just hope they test it for a decent period before they put it onto TQ... The only downside I can see now is it's just making long journeys significantly larger... TBH I think that there isn't anyway to make everyone happy and it's starting to go the way of the "System Analyst's Swing" with A being patched with B but that aint right so more and more patches get added until it's nothing BUT patches... then you go back to A again. Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic here but up to now poor old TomB has improved it for pirates only to be moaned at by traders.. so he improves it for traders only to be moaned at by pirates again. You cant win here. I still think they should have made modules to have this effect and not reprogram the way the game behaves at present. shrugs. I just dont like to have to relearn how to play the damn game after every patch... (I still have nightmares about when they changed the security ratings and had been a convoy hunter keeping just inside the legal faction limits... then patch comes and all of a sudden Im a wanted crim with the navy and cops after my ass - and we got no warning at the time) ------------------------------------------- <Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode <Stavros> was a honda gold wing <Ak-Gara> hah <Stavros>
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:19:00 - [22] Oh yes: What about instant jump bookmarks? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:20:00 - [23] Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/12/2003 22:39:59 Quote: Edited by: Shock on 02/12/2003 22:09:45 OK I smell the first exploit here. Imagine when a group of ships want to free a JIP (I don't know if this is still an issue with the sentry guns at the gates though). Normally they will first send in one or two 'shieldtanks' to do recon and draw fire and targetjams, after which the rest of the group jump in. Ofcourse this is not that different except now they can all jump in all at once, see what's happening, who's there, have almost a mminute to discuss who'll be locking who, let the shieldtanks break their cloak, wait till the defenders attack them and then completely roll over them in an organized fashion. Normally the defenders had the (huge) advantage, but this will, instead of making it even, completely flip the scale to the attackers IMHO. The pirate hunters will certainly not get 1 minute to dicuss their attack,they still have to be quite fast to catch their prey. Pirate corp x is camping a gate, suddenly the numbers of players in the system is increasing by a good amount of players, almost all know hunters. I would be surprised if they won't allign their ships to their safe bookmarks at once. free speech not allowed here
Namtar	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:26:00 - [24] Would be nice to see your ship half transparent so you know the cloak is still working when you appear after jumping.
Crownan	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:27:00 - [25] Per Eve fiction, gates are connected. You are really supposed to exit from the gate in your destination system. In my opinion, CCP should just implement the gates as described in the fiction. You exit the gate just as you exit a station. Forget about the cloaking. And if you are that concerned about a fleet jumping through a gate you are CAMPING, post a look-out (bait?) on the other side.
NeoMorph	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:28:00 - [26] I just had another thought... what about the poor new players who are flying noob ships... they will get either:- Bored Ganked Totally Bored Fall Asleep on keyboard Cancel Subs as EVE is too slow! I think we all forget how slow noob ships really are without navigation and MWD skills ------------------------------------------- <Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode <Stavros> was a honda gold wing <Ak-Gara> hah <Stavros>
Rich Ryobi	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:29:00 - [27] Ana has a good point, I got jacked up last Friday by some campers, this might give me a chance to get through the gates, this is a step in the right direction I beleive.
LeKjart	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Chandra on 02/12/2003 22:37:55 More clarifications: There is now no invulnerability period in jump-in. Once you come out of cloak you are immediately vulnerable. There is an invulnerability while cloaked though. One of the rationale with this change (besides bringing jumps to the gate as they were supposed to) is to counter tactics that effectively exploit long loading time for incoming ships, without giving them a needlessly long invulnerability period. We might want to tune the various distances, as well as the time of the cloak, as well as to nerf the ability to go right out of cloak into warp. There are many tunables here. The goal should of course be that you can camp a gate, but without exploiting weaknesses in the opponents hardware/bandwidth. It is also the idea that given enough firepower and surprise, you can break a blockade. Finally: I believe the warp to bookmark work as before. Please report if they don't. LeKjart
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:38:00 - [29] Quote: Per Eve fiction, gates are connected. You are really supposed to exit from the gate in your destination system. In my opinion, CCP should just implement the gates as described in the fiction. You exit the gate just as you exit a station. Forget about the cloaking. And if you are that concerned about a fleet jumping through a gate you are CAMPING, post a look-out (bait?) on the other side. Congratulations for missing the point. Where have you been the last months? Living behind the moon? ..er.. forget the last sentence Guess what big fleets were doing all the time? Of cource they send scouts. Problem is that the jumping fleet will be lagged out. So, when their client finally stopped loading after 30-45 secs most, if not all of them would find themselfes in their clone station. So, force A would camp the jumpin in this system, force B would cap jumpin in the next system, neither force would move to the other, since that would have meant the guaranteed destruction. If CCP made it as it is "supposed to be" it wouldn't change a bit there. free speech not allowed here
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.02 22:41:00 - [30] Quote: ... Finally: I believe the warp to bookmark work as before. Please report if they don't. LeKjart That's what I mean, LeKjart. Currently people have bookmarks which allow them to warp directly to within jump distance from the gate. Unfortunately I can't check an existing bookmark of that type as I've never used bookmarks that way. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante



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