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UndergrounD
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Posted - 2003.12.08 16:59:00 -
[271]
Edited by: UndergrounD on 08/12/2003 17:10:32
Edited by: UndergrounD on 08/12/2003 17:08:05
The direction this argument has taken is pure conjecture.
Until CCP lay all their Tech level II cards on the table none of us will really know how gameplay will be affected.
The thing is that CCP can ask our opinion, but at the end of the day they can do what they please.
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Uuldahan
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Posted - 2003.12.08 17:06:00 -
[272]
Yes perhaps there will be some good modules to avoid blockades...
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ReForMatt
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Posted - 2003.12.08 17:26:00 -
[273]
Here is a concept fix the game so we can play before you try to complicate it even more what the crap. Who cares about jip camping or blockades I think that is part of the game and makes it fun but only when you can load up on entry. Cloaking is cool and all yea whoo does a dumb dance but whats the point if its all a big azz white screen for more than that min your still screwed. TY ccp for such a great game and charging us all a fee for you all to figure out how to make it stable before you market something. Three chears for ccp
GODS NUFF SAID!! |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.08 17:34:00 -
[274]
I'm looking forward to this. Sure, it's gonna cost me my left ass in ships, but it looks like fun.
.
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LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.08 17:55:00 -
[275]
It would be nice if we could keep this thread down to the business of bouncing comments about what is currently running on Chaos. Have a go at it, see if your conjectures are true, and then come back and make your case, with reference to the actual running code.
Tomb made tests last night with a few bughunters regarding blockades and running through them. The outcome are very promising and fun. Most ships have a fair chance of going through, but depending on the camping force, you have to make the right decisions (warp out, jump back, use ab, wmd, warp stabilizers, etc..).
Secondly, the camping force is much more vulnerable to a counter-attack. The definitely need to use lighter ship if they have to have any chance of gaining a lock, but at the same time they must stay within the disruption field, making them more vulnerable.
All in all, we think that the new system makes the game more strategic and fun. It doesn't allow lone campers to blockade a whole system with absolutely no risk, nor does it allow lone players to fly around without any risk through 0.0 space, but it does offer strategic play in true team based PVP (not mindless PK).
It also brings new value to smaller (and cheaper and faster) ships, which have been largely neglected.
Most of these changes won't affect systems higher than 0.3, so the transition is not as harsh. And finally, our intention is obviously not to alienate us from our playerbase: we will tune this until people really have fun with it, and that goes for all sides.
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5Rings
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:31:00 -
[276]
Edited by: 5Rings on 08/12/2003 18:33:41
Keep in mind if the point of these changes is for blockade, that means preventing ships from passing through, not necessarily killing them.
If I'm in and Indy and I warp to a gate, and see that it's blockaded, shouldn't I have the chance to move off and not attempt to run the blockade or get killed just because I warped in?
Don't make it hard to make an honest living in this game! If the developers want to push us into 0.0 space, then let us get there. |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:35:00 -
[277]
 Quote:
Quote:
I don't expect a normal industrial to be able to get through without some help. They are not designed for that.
LeKjart
...do you think you will:
1. Gain subscribers?
2. Lose subscribers?
3. Neither of the above?
I put my money on 1.
Your milage may vary, but quite frankly it looks to me like the pirates will have a field day.
IMNSHO the big problem is that *pirates* gain nothing, while gankers get more sitting ducks. Correct me if i'm wrong, but won't this antiwarp field prevent the activation of all MWD???
This means not only trying to get the hell away from the ganker *who is safely outside the antiwarp field and can vanish as soon as an attacking force comes in,* but doing it at your ship's BASE SPEED. I guess CCP feels there are too many indies in the game or something.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:38:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 08/12/2003 18:42:40
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't expect a normal industrial to be able to get through without some help. They are not designed for that.
LeKjart
Fair enough, but battleships were not designed to be solo ships either, and they are. You've 'fixed' one and not the other, meaning if you move this to TQ as-is, you will have a lot of confused and upset solo players in industrials wondering why the gatecamper can play solo and he can't.
I'm just sayin'.
2 cruisers with competent pilots could take a battleship before the lock timer changes. The lock timer changes exaggerates that vulnerability further.
It's up to the players to exploit that vulnerability or not.
Yeah, this only makes sense even on paper because of the timing changes. This still screws small corps who must now always escort everything everywhere all the time, whereas a mildly competent Scorp will solo just fine with little or no fear from any threat; remember that the camper can camp *outside* the warp inhibitor field, meaning he will not have to engage if he doesn't want to. The 2 cruisers you mentioned don't have a hope in hell of catching that 100km - distant battleship.
edit: is anyone on Chaos who can teleport / give stuff, during say 6:00 PM - midnite EST time? ANYWHERE in there? I haven't even tried connecting to Chaos in quite some time because i was there's never anyone on when I am, much less someone who can get me where everyone else is :D
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
LeKjart
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:45:00 -
[279]
campers outside the disruption field will have a much harder time warp scrambling someone. Furthermore, battleships take much more time acquiring target. Combine this, and you as a camper want to be on a smaller ship right in the middle of the disruption zone.
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Rutherford
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:46:00 -
[280]
Quote:
Quote:
You have just increased the number of people mining in empire space ten fold!
no, he has not.
He has made room for team play.
Think, Corp / alliance / mobile ref. / player stations.
A lone industrial in 0.0 space is a dead pilot and rightly so.
soon(tm) I suggest that the deep space mining operation gets the deep belts mined out by battleships and the ore transported to the nearby moon/safe spot by industrials where the mobile refinery get busy. The presures minerals then get transported onto one or two indrustials who get full battleship excort back to the base etc etc.
Come on guys... there is more to EVE than an instant bookmark 
If you do not believe this will remove the non-alliance corps from 0.0 space, then you have 1) never mined in dangerous 0.0 space or 2) you are a member of a large alliance.
Either way you are wrong wrong wrong.
If warp-inhibitors are deployable at stargates, anyone who does not belong to an aliance that is controlling its space will be forced to stay in Empire space.
You do not have to believe this, just wait, time will tell, and I know I am right!
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Rutherford
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:48:00 -
[281]
Quote:
campers outside the disruption field will have a much harder time warp scrambling someone. Furthermore, battleships take much more time acquiring target. Combine this, and you as a camper want to be on a smaller ship right in the middle of the disruption zone.
LOL... Chandra. I have a character with a 0.87 second lock time with a scorpion battleship. That lock time excuse holds no water, it is like a bucket with more holes than wood.
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Crownan
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:52:00 -
[282]
I am more in favor of a Collision Avoidance System or Traffic Control System (call it what you want) that prevents a ship from exiting warp closer than 20km-30km (tune THIS, not all that other junk) of a station or gate.
Couple this with the invulnerability turning off as soon as player makes an action, and I believe we have a viable system.
Dropping players right in the middle of a disruptor field that can only be countered by not going anywhere is a bad idea.
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Rutherford
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:53:00 -
[283]
Warp inhibitors at a gate will provide 5 to 7 alliances in this game to mine rarer ores, and prevent everyone else from leaving empire space.
I do not know what the percentage of players not in official aliances are, however, I expect it will mean the distribution of wealth in the universe is about to get extremely skewed.
You thought the miner II distribution had a lot of negative press for the creators, wait until people see the affects of warp inhibitors.
I know this first hand since my corp relies on cunning and advance preparation to operate in an area with rare ores and extremely aggressice players.
We will not be able to stay in 0.0 space if warp inhibitors are allowed to be deployed around gates.
Darn shame. I really do not want to go back to mining in Empire space, but I see no other alternatives.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.08 18:58:00 -
[284]
Quote:
LOL... Chandra. I have a character with a 0.87 second lock time with a scorpion battleship. That lock time excuse holds no water, it is like a bucket with more holes than wood.
0.87 lock time against what?
You are talking about chaos, yes?
.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:01:00 -
[285]
Quote:
campers outside the disruption field will have a much harder time warp scrambling someone. Furthermore, battleships take much more time acquiring target. Combine this, and you as a camper want to be on a smaller ship right in the middle of the disruption zone.
Which kinda brings us back to the fate of sentry guns. Without profitable trade from outside empire space, there's not a large amount of traffic for pirates to prey on. Mobile refineries would have an effect but they also might be Shiva and not Castor from last information. Increasing reciporacal trade between Empire/Non-Empire space would have an effect, but not a large one due to the lack of stations outside Empire space.
There's more wealth travelling between stations inside empire space than outside it, so pirates will naturally want to prey on that traffic. The alliances outside empire space are also an incentive to prey inside empire space. If a Tempest or an Apocalypse can target an industrial and fire off 1 volley with 1400mm/Tachyons before it can jump from outside sentry gun range, then the breakpoint is the number of Tempests/Apocalyspes needed to make that 1 volley lethal to the industrial.
And anyone interested in running off the bship fleet will have to bring enough ships to run them off.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ralimenua
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:06:00 -
[286]
Quote:
LekJart:I put in warp disruptor fields around stations and gates, that will prevent warping within a certain perimeter around them. This goes both ways, so instajump bookmarks will not work.
I'm looking forward to trying this out tonight. It will make those six-jump L1 agent missions so much more rewarding, I'm sure.
Could you at least consider fixing the warp-to and dock-at points of station models so that bu default we consistenly warp to a point in front of the dock, and then fly into the dock, rather than halfway through the station? |
Rutherford
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:08:00 -
[287]
Quote:
Quote:
LOL... Chandra. I have a character with a 0.87 second lock time with a scorpion battleship. That lock time excuse holds no water, it is like a bucket with more holes than wood.
0.87 lock time against what?
You are talking about chaos, yes?
No TQ.
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Wulfnor
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:31:00 -
[288]
I think perhaps trying out your Scorpion setup on Chaos would convince people or perhaps posting the setup here. I am sure there are some who would would try it out and see if it is possible.
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Xian
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:31:00 -
[289]
Trading is far to hard without support...but who wants to fly with his battleship (¦s) behind a Indy... nobody really..just think about trading missions.. i have to fly 20 jumps to make a plus from 500k isk in an indy..do u really think that somebody would play your bodyguard for so less money?! (NO!!).. do u think someone pays 3-6 million too fly with an indy with electronic part in his cargo ,8-20 jumps ...with battleship or fregatte support just to land in the next blockade?! (nope) .. the Map doesnt work proper ..the lags are to often ..and now you are changing the hole stuff? for what..thats the only way too travel safe in an indy ... what i find stupid is that everyone is just thinking about the Fighting problems, but who thinks about the guys who fly to make money?! the only way to make money at moment is chain killing and bounty hunting...wow...thats getting boring guys... make things better for all not just for fighters
Roving Guns |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:49:00 -
[290]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
LOL... Chandra. I have a character with a 0.87 second lock time with a scorpion battleship. That lock time excuse holds no water, it is like a bucket with more holes than wood.
0.87 lock time against what?
You are talking about chaos, yes?
No TQ.
Targetting has changed. Check the thread.
.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.12.08 19:49:00 -
[291]
Quote:
It would be nice if we could keep this thread down to the business of bouncing comments about what is currently running on Chaos. Have a go at it, see if your conjectures are true, and then come back and make your case, with reference to the actual running code.
Tomb made tests last night with a few bughunters regarding blockades and running through them. The outcome are very promising and fun. Most ships have a fair chance of going through, but depending on the camping force, you have to make the right decisions (warp out, jump back, use ab, wmd, warp stabilizers, etc..).
Secondly, the camping force is much more vulnerable to a counter-attack. The definitely need to use lighter ship if they have to have any chance of gaining a lock, but at the same time they must stay within the disruption field, making them more vulnerable.
All in all, we think that the new system makes the game more strategic and fun. It doesn't allow lone campers to blockade a whole system with absolutely no risk, nor does it allow lone players to fly around without any risk through 0.0 space, but it does offer strategic play in true team based PVP (not mindless PK).
It also brings new value to smaller (and cheaper and faster) ships, which have been largely neglected.
Most of these changes won't affect systems higher than 0.3, so the transition is not as harsh. And finally, our intention is obviously not to alienate us from our playerbase: we will tune this until people really have fun with it, and that goes for all sides.
i like the ideas, but am still worried about the final implementation.
1. most ships having a fair chance to slip through means most ships will slip through, as this is what (clever) ppl maximise their set-up for.
2. in no way was it possible to blockade a system before these changes (apart from the big JIP lag thing). one battleship could never have done it.
3. the big change JIP --> GATE will have a big influence on 0.4 systems (sentryguns)
4. i ll hold you to that final promise. think pirate!
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SithEwok
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Posted - 2003.12.08 22:42:00 -
[292]
Edited by: SithEwok on 08/12/2003 23:06:29
In a huge corp, but ocasionally I like to do things myself. I do not want to bother another corp member to follow me to protect my ship incase Im attacked. Its dumb. Sometimes I play when no one else is on. I can handle myself. Try not giving TOO much power to griefers, that sit around all day waiting for a chance like this. These guys soley train battle skills. The best thing we have to combat that is speed/instajump.
Its gonna make mining/hauling NEAR impossible. (gate guards) On a 7 to 8 jump haul trying to squeeze droplets of high end minerals... Give us an indy with 4 high slots so we can defend vrs gate guards. This way we have 4 high slots, for 150mm rails, 5 med slots for abs, and an extra low slot to install an engine to get these indy's up to speed. Before you institute this into the game you should atleast have player made bases or titans that way we dont have to travel that far and make it an hour journey one way.
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quote: I just hope they test it for a decent period before they put it onto TQ... The only downside I can see now is it's just making long journeys significantly larger.
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Having a family, studying, full time employment makes me wish travel was much faster. How about highly guarded Secure Mega Highways in some civ regions that you had to enter a passcode, so that you would be hurled a few jumps from your main station that you normally work out of? Your alliance would control the passcodes. This is on the other end of the spectrum. Miners, suppliers.
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.12.09 00:44:00 -
[293]
I'm not happy about this new change.
The CCP devs need to take a leason from Anarchy Online to heart. AO tried to FORCE people to work in groups for the good stuf, and lost 25% of their customer base. Thats a whopping amount of mula to loose.
Alot of people do not play these games to be in groups, myself included. I also do not appreciate illogical devs trying to FORCE pvp.
Get this point; if I wanted to work in teams and pvp, I'd play Wolfenstein, BF1942, Quake, Unreal, or some such.
CCP needs to change their game's description to include 'Soloing not encouraged', because thats where its headed.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Morin
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Posted - 2003.12.09 01:18:00 -
[294]
Could you guys make it so that if you are in a warp scambing field and click a warpto/dock on a (celestial object)/station, you're ship moves out of that range first, like it does in autopilot-flight?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.09 01:26:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 09/12/2003 01:26:33
Quote:
The CCP devs need to take a leason from Anarchy Online to heart. AO tried to FORCE people to work in groups for the good stuf, and lost 25% of their customer base. Thats a whopping amount of mula to loose.
AO lost 25% of their customer base because of
- Instability
- Major loss of progress to bugs (time warps and IP loss)
- Lack of content (was long after they lost the majority of their playerbase before any content that required team work was introduced)
- Imbalances in the professions (Nanotechnician, for example)
And other issues. I know cause my AO account is still active from Day 1.
On the other hand with their recent expansion they introduced Perks, supplemental skills and abilities, which are impossible to use without another player using one of their abilities. Shadowlands has gotten excellent reviews.
These changes promote teamwork to achieve a goal. That promotes interactivity, which is one of the core reasons for making a Massively Multiplayer game. My concern with the changes is to keep the number of required people on that team as low as possible. Right now it seems like around 3-5 people to properly cover a gate, which means 3-5 people to kick them off the gate. That's not overly burdensome to find, imo.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.12.09 02:00:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 09/12/2003 02:01:29
ignoring the broken autopilot for a moment (because TomB said its known and will be fixed soon)
Not sure which dev this really applys to but here goes
I'm currently on chaos trying to help test research agents .. now to begin with this is involving some standard missions for the corp to get my factions up .. unfortunately pretty much this entire research corp's (Boundless Creation) agents are in the low sec part of metropolis (not connected to the outside 0.0 that I know of .. its just 0.2 to 0.4) .. the slow gates are making it kinda painfull :( (and if the gate guns are removed .... *shudders*)
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.12.09 02:44:00 -
[297]
just had an interesting experience also
autopilot warped to an minmater stargate .. hit the spike and bounced 5k backwards .. flew at it again, hit the large round coil and bounced 2k backwards .. then it tried to ram the coil again and this time managed to jump at the last second
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Golgrath
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Posted - 2003.12.09 08:44:00 -
[298]
Chandra,
Has the following scenario been considered by CCP:
4 or more campers blockading a gate. They are placed at the edges of the warp disruption bubble (20,001m from gate, in all directions).
They can warp scramble for almost sure and have a fair chance of webifying ships jumping in (jumpin distance from gate 15-20km). This seems to me like an unfair advantage for they can warp out anytime if a force big enough should jump in.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.09 13:49:00 -
[299]
Chandra:
Was getting 'Target is invulnerable' when a person warped in last night. So the immunity timer on warp in is still active?
Also, a visual representation of being unable to warp would be appreciated if possible. A status light or something on the HUD. Repeated messages of being unable to warp just make the cursing on my side of the screen more original.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Sylia Masters
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Posted - 2003.12.09 14:18:00 -
[300]
I see a tiny little problem though, in regard to the one ship that cannot equip any sort of module, let alone an AB/MWD; our friendly neighborhood Shuttle. Granted they can go 625 m/s with nav 5, however it's still going to take a long time with the new distances. And just to tack onto that, pods will probly take a good 30 mins to get anywhere in a single system, perchance they could get a tiny little speed increase?
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