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Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
81
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Posted - 2016.01.07 14:50:54 -
[1] - Quote
TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. But I've always put Eve (and a couple other games) up on a pedestal because I thought their PVP meant something more than a scoreboard at the end of a round, because I thought the PVP had a purpose beyond being entertaining in and of itself, because I thought the PVP was more than just a cyclic point/gear treadmill.
Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line, and not just because a handful of interceptors and cruisers came into their space looking to pop some inattentive ratters/miners or looking to goad the opponent into fighting back (but not with too many ships or the wrong kinds of ships!)? Does it still have a bunch of that and I just don't realize it? Does PVP here mean more than it does in any other game's PVP? Or am I just remembering Eve's past through rose-colored glasses in comparison to the WoW I played back in 2006 when I first started playing Eve?
Long version: In FPS games you just play match after match, killing the other team and trying not to die so that you can win the round and/or pad your k:d ratio... then when the match is over, you repeat. Ad nauseum. PVP in most other MMOs is basically the same. You queue up for a controlled deathmatch situation in a tiny environment so that you get more winpoints, or you queue up for a controlled deathmatch situation in a bigger environment so that you get more winpoints... then when the match is over, you repeat. Ad nauseum. Usually there's some sort of level-up mechanism where you unlock new weapons or better gear or whatever, all to assist you in not falling behind everyone else who is also doing the same thing in the struggle for more winpoints.
It's basically the same thing as themepark PVE, really, where you kill your way through encounters for new gear drops so that you are able to repeat the process in the next cycle of content.
The people who do this stuff do it because it's fun for them.
A few MMOs seemed to stray quite a ways from this formula for PVP though. EQ's PVP servers, DAOC, Shadowbane, some others. Eve. PVP could very easily mean more than just winpoints. People often did it for more than the fun of the PVP itself. Sure, people roamed around the countryside in DAOC and SB just for good fights, but the real PVP was when someone's home was on the line... when the place where a player parked his characters and their assets, leveled up alts, did PVE... when that place was either going to get taken over by the neighbors or just plain burned to the ground... that's when PVP was great. When people were fighting over something that was hard/impossible to find elsewhere, instead of just for the hell of it.
And yeah, Eve was like that too. It still is sometimes, I guess? I don't really know, because the only PVP I've seen in the last few months of nullsec is random interceptors or cruisers coming through in groups of 1-8 trying to kill the one miner/ratter who doesn't warp to the POS when NEAR warns them that an enemy is 3 jumps out. Was it always like that? I feel like it wasn't.... but maybe it's just me viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses? I feel like it used to be more common that people fought for something more than the hell of it.
I assume I'll just get people posting here to tell me that since this is a sandbox, it's up to me to make my own meaning behind what I do in it... or that CCP isn't here to cater to my individual desires... or whatever. And I guess those things might be true, which would be unfortunate for my whole "viewing Eve as a game of meaningful PVP, hovering up above all the other MMOs with a halo of light around it because it's just plain better when there's more to PVP than the PVP itself" thing. Oh well. |
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
125
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:02:26 -
[2] - Quote
Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc... |
Rykker Bow
The Scope
208
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:02:57 -
[3] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. But I've always put Eve (and a couple other games) up on a pedestal because I thought their PVP meant something more than a scoreboard at the end of a round, because I thought the PVP had a purpose beyond being entertaining in and of itself, because I thought the PVP was more than just a cyclic point/gear treadmill.
Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line, and not just because a handful of interceptors and cruisers came into their space looking to pop some inattentive ratters/miners or looking to goad the opponent into fighting back (but not with too many ships or the wrong kinds of ships!)?.
Look into faction warfare. In a nutshell, we fight to occupy strategic systems then defend those systems from the other militia which produces an ever changing and dynamic battlefront where fleet comps are both continually created and countered.
There was an article in crossing zebras called the battle of kehjari where we defended our home for roughly 3 days against a focused attempt to take over our home system. These types of fights make fw areas some of the most active pvp areas in the entire game, sometimes making single systems more active than multiple regions.
The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated -
The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
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Acedia
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:03:06 -
[4] - Quote
Eve was never designed with those big battles of more than 50 people in a system in mind, that's why TiDi was added at a later date after players complained about disconnects during fleet fights, fast forward to the recent updates and nerfs to jump fatigue and the like it's obious that CCP is trying to completely kill anything that isn't small gang PvP.
Groups like Pandemic Legion are so obsessed with killboard stats that they killboard pad cheap frigates to make themselves look more 'elite pvp' as well. |
Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
30733
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:03:19 -
[5] - Quote
Nowadays, for too many people, it's only anymore about their own fun and entertainment.
People remove meaning from everything nowadays, changing it all into something shallow.
Is this thread really about PvP, or actually about people?
RoAnnon wrote:
O Bob, wonGÇÖt you buy a new Svipul for me
I just scanned for sites and I found a C3
The fleet is now forming, FC wants T3s
O Bob, wonGÇÖt you buy a new Svipul for me
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Memphis Baas
896
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:06:48 -
[6] - Quote
"Meaningful" PVP can mean a lot of things, typically depending on what the poster wants it to mean.
Typically you see "meaningful" used to differentiate between FPS style PVP where you don't have to put effort into gearing up, and MMO-style PVP where you have to get gear first, and you lose the gear if you die.
But in this case, what we do in-game IS affected by CCP's decisions, much like market prices affect what the traders actually do at any moment in time. So, with the changes to sovereignty and the entosis link modules, and with the changes to capital ships not even being on the test servers yet, everyone is waiting to see what CCP will implement, before committing to lengthy wars over volumes of space that may or may not be impossible to hold or defend after all. They've embarked on a project to "revamp" nullsec, and it's been a year already and looking like it's probably going to be another 1.5 years before it's all implemented. So that's had an effect on the playerbase numbers, and on the number of wars, and on the alliances.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2005
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:07:33 -
[7] - Quote
I defend my home against evil bot-aspirants who try to pollute the environment with their unlicensed and unregulated mining.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:12:48 -
[8] - Quote
Mister Ripley wrote:Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc...
http://www.eveonline.com/
"Eve Online. Real Life Science Fiction."
When was the last time you read scifi where people fought each other just for ***** and giggles?
I'm not saying that fun for fun's sake isn't enough. But CCP doesn't try to sell this game as a "come PVP in Eve because PVP in Eve is fun" ... it tries to sell this game as "come struggle in the vast universe of Eve, where your every move is PVP and you are always doing something meaningful in the biggest sandbox ever!" |
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
7
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:14:16 -
[9] - Quote
Since the entire game is one giant PvP game and those of us who log in PvP in some way, shape, or form.... yes. Yes, there is incentive. Null-sec might be a little stagnate if that's the kind of PvPing you want, but you can go and make your own fights. You can make someone else fight for their home. I know we lost our home after a 3-4 month war. We're renter peons right now, but we still defend what little land we have. You don't have to always be boring. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13272
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:16:09 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, EVE has 'meaningful' pvp (ie pvp for taking space/securing resources to be used to do other things as opposed to "just shooting stuff because you can). But It is way more rare than it used to be.
Some of this is the natural evolution that happens in any setting that involves people (ie people get wealthy, get protective of that wealth, and design innovative ways to not only preserve that wealth, but make having to fight over it less likely). you could see it in the past with groups like BoB, Northern Coalition (the original, not NCdot) and Drone Russian Federation. You see it now with Imperium/CFC.
But that's just some of the reason. The bigger part of the reason has been design decisions by CCP over the course of the years. This consists of two main aspects IMO.
-Rewards is a big one. Back when i started it was harder to make isk. No Incursions, no FW (which has rewards for just pvping now), no "re-spawning in one place" anomalies from upgraded systems. Exploration was harder, as was scanning down things to explore. No Marauders or Tengus and the other things that have made combat PVE trivial to survive etc etc.
Because Wealth was harder to generate, it made the space you fight over (null space) more worthwhile. Back then, owning a system so you could chain rat in it's asteroid belts was damn good isk. Now Belts in null as those things you see in your right click menu but never bother warping too. Hell, you don't even had to do the anomaly farming thing, you can just stay in high sec and run incursions (which very few people do relatively speaking while still generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game) or get some ships and skill up and do this.
TL;DR, CCP has (inadvertently) systematically killed the profit motive at the heart of 'meaningful pvp'. Why fight for space just so you can make less than you can in npc space (high sec, FW low sec, etc)? It's just too easy to make isk now. And CCP is going to make it worse with this 'tribute system' they want to add. Wormhole space is like the last Bastion of true 'meaningful pvp'.
The other thing is the fact that the current DEV culture is 'small gang conflicts'. "AegisSov" had 'spreading people out and making fights smaller' as a goal. It worked, and it's a super turn off to those of us who like "Fleet Action" style pvp. The DEVs seem to have a 'small gang/solo pvp' mentality that isn't conducive to "meaningful pvp' at all.
So now there is no real profit in taking space, and the 'fighting' you have to do to take space is annoying as hell. My alliance has been involved in taking some space recently and after dealing with "nodes" and "entosising" it's getting harder and harder to get the enthusiasm to fleet up when jabber pings. Grinding POSes for SOV in 2008 while waiting for a Titan to appear to AOE DD you off the field was more fun than AegisSov. |
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Mister Ripley
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
125
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:39:31 -
[11] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:Mister Ripley wrote:Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc... http://www.eveonline.com/ "Eve Online. Real Life Science Fiction." When was the last time you read scifi where people fought each other just for ***** and giggles? If I would be immortal IRL, I would do as I like. And if I get kicks out of fighting and dying again and again, I would do it. Just like the aforementioned examples... |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
32
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:49:39 -
[12] - Quote
[quote=Amarrchecko]Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line...[/qoute]
Isn't this what null and sovereignty is all about? And wormholes? |
Angel T Hunter
Vagrant Skies
35
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Posted - 2016.01.07 15:55:11 -
[13] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP.
No.. Best reason is that something explodes on your screen
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Annemariela Antonela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:03:26 -
[14] - Quote
Why do anything? Meaning is not something that exists outside of brains, and those brains are temporary, unable to store or transmit in any substantial way their qualitative experiences beyond their own biological arcs.
Why do anything at all?
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
7946
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:03:47 -
[15] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:What's the incentive to PVP?
Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
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Ginnie
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
65
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:05:13 -
[16] - Quote
When was the last time an Alliance took over another Alliance's SOV? Does that happen often?
I've read about what it takes to destroy a POS and then take over a SOV, it sounds really involved and time consuming...I can't imagine it happens often...
May be Alliances that aren't very active could be taken out in null with pretty limited risk to capitals, but I can't imagine the larger well established and active Alliances would just allow another equally established and active Alliance lay siege their SOV and pound on some of their POS...but, may be I'm wrong...
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
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Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
249
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:11:36 -
[17] - Quote
If you don't have X+1 ships before the fight, there's no motive at all.
I can has blogging skills!
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
32
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:29:14 -
[18] - Quote
Ginnie wrote:When was the last time an Alliance took over another Alliance's SOV? Does that happen often?
What time scale were you expecting? Daily exchange of dozens of systems? Hourly?
Think in terms of months or years. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3100
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ego.
This is not a signature.
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
32
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:39:29 -
[20] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote: "come struggle in the vast universe of Eve, where your every move is PVP and you are always doing something meaningful to carve out your own niche in the biggest sandbox ever!"
I do PVP all the time. I'm fairly good at it. You can check my killboard.
...
Yup. Not one kill. Ever. Never shot another player. Hardly even tried.
But it's all PVP to me.
I go out. I explore. I dive wormholes, null, run combat sites in FW lowsec, haul my billions around. And I watch the scanner. Fit for tank and escape. Study. Learn. Practice. I don't moan about losses. I take risks. I consider my play very meaningful and fun to me. I measure that success in terms of roams without loss, new experiences, jackpots, wealth. It's my niche. I'm using others for content, they're using me.
I'm the rabbit in a world of foxes. |
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Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
76
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:40:38 -
[21] - Quote
There is no strict "Incentive" to pvp. It's about player mentality. Just think about it: Gathering with strange people you can't trust knowing that at least 3 of them are spies, then sit for eternity on some gate expecting a trap listening on comms, starring: Vomiting dude, dude that think that he is master of singing, dude telling how he went shopping and grabbing 3 T-shirts with some animu girlies on them just for $19.99, dude arguing with his wife on periods, random noob and that-one-guy-that-always-asks-about-silence-on-comm-if-you-ever-shut-up-for-a-split-second. Really? If it was just about profit, it would be the worst job you could sign on.
Someone loves to build castles. Someone loves to destroy castles. Someone loves to manipulate people into building/destroying castles. Someone loves to manipulate people into building castles to monopolize them later. Someone loves to pay few dollars to buy services of destroying castles. "Cuz I'm rich and the world is my bGÖÑtch!" Someone loves to build castles that's number one among castles. Someone loves to build castles that's number one among castles, but can't really do it. So he builds Gäû2 castle to destroy Gäû1 later. Someone loves to just produce sand panettons. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
996
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:41:36 -
[22] - Quote
Wait... We need a reason to PvP other than to defend the right to make pot noodles in the sacred teapot? |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
33
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:56:24 -
[23] - Quote
One of the mysteries of PVP is to me this.
You fit a ship for fighting other ships. You have skill. Yet, if you run into a larger group, it'll be a loss.
So, you need mates. But your erstwhile opponents will get some too, lest they lose.
Eventually, someone runs out of patience and sets out. And a scout sees them, reporting back their numbers and composition, setting up their side to outmatch the other. Not enough numbers? Perhaps a good plan will swing it in your favor. Flanking. Ambush. Bait. Divide. Composition might alone be enough.
But then, they're doing that too. To you. Can you be sure? Safe? No. So you stake your ship on your best effort. For good or ill...
It's complex. Real time. With stakes.
Yet people often come by and ask about how is it "meaningful". How could it be more so? |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2678
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Posted - 2016.01.07 16:58:19 -
[24] - Quote
Lemme paint a picture for you.... etch-a-sketch like. My favorite pvp moment was when I was flipping a t1 battlecruiser with a t1 frigate. I hadn't noticed that he had corpmates in system at the time, so the arrival of the second t1 battlecruiser was something of a surprise, but not an unwelcome one. Then the t1 logistics cruiser dropped on field to help. It was a VERY long fight, which they eventually won. I went up in flames under the guns of a three week old newbie. Afterwards I thanked them all for the excitement, as I had LOVED every moment of it. The response I got back was 'Yeah, that was pretty awesome!'
The best fun you can have sometimes is making the game more fun for someone else. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, sometimes the real victory is rattling someone else's cage enough to show them that there are other ways to enjoy the game than to mindlessly shoot at NPC's day in and day out.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Paranoid Loyd
8088
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:00:20 -
[25] - Quote
The thrill of victory and agony of defeat.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
557
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:08:04 -
[26] - Quote
Amarrchecko wrote:Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line
Come on out to WH space.
Speaking as someone who in the past set up a pos with just me and my alts in a WH, I guarantee you will be in this situation sooner or later |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
7948
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:08:58 -
[27] - Quote
Linkified for the younglings.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13272
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:30:34 -
[28] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with liking pvp for the sake of pvp. But that's not what the OP is talking about, he;s asking if there is any "pvp for greater purposes" going on, and the answer is "not as much as before".
I remember being a member of a corp in Atlas when we took Omist from the Russians. It was poor space, but it was space. Because it was poor space we (with the help of our friends Red.Overlord, BoB and others) took Insmother, then Detorid to give us access to more resources. And we held them (by the skin of our teech sometimes) while we used to wealth to build up. It culminated with us kicking Red Alliance out of C-J6, their 'ancestral home' as far as the game was concerned.
THAT was meaningful pvp. By winning battles, we ended up with better space to rat, explore and mine in, meaning we could then do MORE stuff than we did before we took that space...
Now?
Now there is no need to do that. Just get an alt and run some incusions/FW missions/highsec lvl 4s whatever and use that isk to buy ships you don't care about to throw at other people with ships they don't care about and try to smile while you're doing it. Great if you are into pvp for the shear pleasure of watching someone else lose something, but not so great if you want your gameplay to actually have an impact on your individual status and enjoyment of the game later on.
For me there is still some 'meaningful pvp' when I get into a defense fleet and kill the raiders who are trying to kill my mates who are mining. Killing those neutrals lets me get back to PVEing as well. But it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. Fortunately for me I'm mainly in it for the PVE, but the decline of actually meaningful pvp in EVE is a real loss for this game. |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:37:21 -
[29] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:The thrill of victory and agony of defeat.
I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. Why are you guys in THIS game instead of one that gives you more PVP for less overhead if you PVP just for the sake of PVP and/or for the thrill of victory and agony of defeat? |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.01.07 17:40:24 -
[30] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:greater purposes
Heh. I have a reply halfway typed up to someone else in the thread that used these exact words.
I know that a lot of preparation and effort can go into Eve PVP. But it just doesn't carry much weight, in my opinion, when the only thing that's on the line is the time you put into preparing for and performing the PVP. When there's no purpose beyond the PVP itself... why aren't we all just playing a FPS instead of a game where we need to plex or otherwise worry about isk in order to do any PVP that's more than rookie ships and civilian modules? |
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