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What's the incentive to PVP?

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Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 81	Posted - 2016.01.07 14:50:54 - [1] - Quote TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. But I've always put Eve (and a couple other games) up on a pedestal because I thought their PVP meant something more than a scoreboard at the end of a round, because I thought the PVP had a purpose beyond being entertaining in and of itself, because I thought the PVP was more than just a cyclic point/gear treadmill. Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line, and not just because a handful of interceptors and cruisers came into their space looking to pop some inattentive ratters/miners or looking to goad the opponent into fighting back (but not with too many ships or the wrong kinds of ships!)? Does it still have a bunch of that and I just don't realize it? Does PVP here mean more than it does in any other game's PVP? Or am I just remembering Eve's past through rose-colored glasses in comparison to the WoW I played back in 2006 when I first started playing Eve? Long version: In FPS games you just play match after match, killing the other team and trying not to die so that you can win the round and/or pad your k:d ratio... then when the match is over, you repeat. Ad nauseum. PVP in most other MMOs is basically the same. You queue up for a controlled deathmatch situation in a tiny environment so that you get more winpoints, or you queue up for a controlled deathmatch situation in a bigger environment so that you get more winpoints... then when the match is over, you repeat. Ad nauseum. Usually there's some sort of level-up mechanism where you unlock new weapons or better gear or whatever, all to assist you in not falling behind everyone else who is also doing the same thing in the struggle for more winpoints. It's basically the same thing as themepark PVE, really, where you kill your way through encounters for new gear drops so that you are able to repeat the process in the next cycle of content. The people who do this stuff do it because it's fun for them. A few MMOs seemed to stray quite a ways from this formula for PVP though. EQ's PVP servers, DAOC, Shadowbane, some others. Eve. PVP could very easily mean more than just winpoints. People often did it for more than the fun of the PVP itself. Sure, people roamed around the countryside in DAOC and SB just for good fights, but the real PVP was when someone's home was on the line... when the place where a player parked his characters and their assets, leveled up alts, did PVE... when that place was either going to get taken over by the neighbors or just plain burned to the ground... that's when PVP was great. When people were fighting over something that was hard/impossible to find elsewhere, instead of just for the hell of it. And yeah, Eve was like that too. It still is sometimes, I guess? I don't really know, because the only PVP I've seen in the last few months of nullsec is random interceptors or cruisers coming through in groups of 1-8 trying to kill the one miner/ratter who doesn't warp to the POS when NEAR warns them that an enemy is 3 jumps out. Was it always like that? I feel like it wasn't.... but maybe it's just me viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses? I feel like it used to be more common that people fought for something more than the hell of it. I assume I'll just get people posting here to tell me that since this is a sandbox, it's up to me to make my own meaning behind what I do in it... or that CCP isn't here to cater to my individual desires... or whatever. And I guess those things might be true, which would be unfortunate for my whole "viewing Eve as a game of meaningful PVP, hovering up above all the other MMOs with a halo of light around it because it's just plain better when there's more to PVP than the PVP itself" thing. Oh well.
Mister Ripley Ministry of War Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:02:26 - [2] - Quote Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc...
Rykker Bow The Scope 208	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:02:57 - [3] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. But I've always put Eve (and a couple other games) up on a pedestal because I thought their PVP meant something more than a scoreboard at the end of a round, because I thought the PVP had a purpose beyond being entertaining in and of itself, because I thought the PVP was more than just a cyclic point/gear treadmill. Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line, and not just because a handful of interceptors and cruisers came into their space looking to pop some inattentive ratters/miners or looking to goad the opponent into fighting back (but not with too many ships or the wrong kinds of ships!)?. Look into faction warfare. In a nutshell, we fight to occupy strategic systems then defend those systems from the other militia which produces an ever changing and dynamic battlefront where fleet comps are both continually created and countered. There was an article in crossing zebras called the battle of kehjari where we defended our home for roughly 3 days against a focused attempt to take over our home system. These types of fights make fw areas some of the most active pvp areas in the entire game, sometimes making single systems more active than multiple regions. The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Acedia State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:03:06 - [4] - Quote Eve was never designed with those big battles of more than 50 people in a system in mind, that's why TiDi was added at a later date after players complained about disconnects during fleet fights, fast forward to the recent updates and nerfs to jump fatigue and the like it's obious that CCP is trying to completely kill anything that isn't small gang PvP. Groups like Pandemic Legion are so obsessed with killboard stats that they killboard pad cheap frigates to make themselves look more 'elite pvp' as well.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 30733	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:03:19 - [5] - Quote Nowadays, for too many people, it's only anymore about their own fun and entertainment. People remove meaning from everything nowadays, changing it all into something shallow. Is this thread really about PvP, or actually about people? RoAnnon wrote: O Bob, wonGÇÖt you buy a new Svipul for me I just scanned for sites and I found a C3 The fleet is now forming, FC wants T3s O Bob, wonGÇÖt you buy a new Svipul for me
Memphis Baas 896	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:06:48 - [6] - Quote "Meaningful" PVP can mean a lot of things, typically depending on what the poster wants it to mean. Typically you see "meaningful" used to differentiate between FPS style PVP where you don't have to put effort into gearing up, and MMO-style PVP where you have to get gear first, and you lose the gear if you die. But in this case, what we do in-game IS affected by CCP's decisions, much like market prices affect what the traders actually do at any moment in time. So, with the changes to sovereignty and the entosis link modules, and with the changes to capital ships not even being on the test servers yet, everyone is waiting to see what CCP will implement, before committing to lengthy wars over volumes of space that may or may not be impossible to hold or defend after all. They've embarked on a project to "revamp" nullsec, and it's been a year already and looking like it's probably going to be another 1.5 years before it's all implemented. So that's had an effect on the playerbase numbers, and on the number of wars, and on the alliances.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2005	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:07:33 - [7] - Quote I defend my home against evil bot-aspirants who try to pollute the environment with their unlicensed and unregulated mining. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:12:48 - [8] - Quote Mister Ripley wrote: Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc... http://www.eveonline.com/ "Eve Online. Real Life Science Fiction." When was the last time you read scifi where people fought each other just for ***** and giggles? I'm not saying that fun for fun's sake isn't enough. But CCP doesn't try to sell this game as a "come PVP in Eve because PVP in Eve is fun" ... it tries to sell this game as "come struggle in the vast universe of Eve, where your every move is PVP and you are always doing something meaningful in the biggest sandbox ever!"
Cien Banchiere Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution 7	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:14:16 - [9] - Quote Since the entire game is one giant PvP game and those of us who log in PvP in some way, shape, or form.... yes. Yes, there is incentive. Null-sec might be a little stagnate if that's the kind of PvPing you want, but you can go and make your own fights. You can make someone else fight for their home. I know we lost our home after a 3-4 month war. We're renter peons right now, but we still defend what little land we have. You don't have to always be boring.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13272	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:16:09 - [10] - Quote Yes, EVE has 'meaningful' pvp (ie pvp for taking space/securing resources to be used to do other things as opposed to "just shooting stuff because you can). But It is way more rare than it used to be. Some of this is the natural evolution that happens in any setting that involves people (ie people get wealthy, get protective of that wealth, and design innovative ways to not only preserve that wealth, but make having to fight over it less likely). you could see it in the past with groups like BoB, Northern Coalition (the original, not NCdot) and Drone Russian Federation. You see it now with Imperium/CFC. But that's just some of the reason. The bigger part of the reason has been design decisions by CCP over the course of the years. This consists of two main aspects IMO. -Rewards is a big one. Back when i started it was harder to make isk. No Incursions, no FW (which has rewards for just pvping now), no "re-spawning in one place" anomalies from upgraded systems. Exploration was harder, as was scanning down things to explore. No Marauders or Tengus and the other things that have made combat PVE trivial to survive etc etc. Because Wealth was harder to generate, it made the space you fight over (null space) more worthwhile. Back then, owning a system so you could chain rat in it's asteroid belts was damn good isk. Now Belts in null as those things you see in your right click menu but never bother warping too. Hell, you don't even had to do the anomaly farming thing, you can just stay in high sec and run incursions (which very few people do relatively speaking while still generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game) or get some ships and skill up and do this. TL;DR, CCP has (inadvertently) systematically killed the profit motive at the heart of 'meaningful pvp'. Why fight for space just so you can make less than you can in npc space (high sec, FW low sec, etc)? It's just too easy to make isk now. And CCP is going to make it worse with this 'tribute system' they want to add. Wormhole space is like the last Bastion of true 'meaningful pvp'. The other thing is the fact that the current DEV culture is 'small gang conflicts'. "AegisSov" had 'spreading people out and making fights smaller' as a goal. It worked, and it's a super turn off to those of us who like "Fleet Action" style pvp. The DEVs seem to have a 'small gang/solo pvp' mentality that isn't conducive to "meaningful pvp' at all. So now there is no real profit in taking space, and the 'fighting' you have to do to take space is annoying as hell. My alliance has been involved in taking some space recently and after dealing with "nodes" and "entosising" it's getting harder and harder to get the enthusiasm to fleet up when jabber pings. Grinding POSes for SOV in 2008 while waiting for a Titan to appear to AOE DD you off the field was more fun than AegisSov.

Mister Ripley Ministry of War Amarr Empire 125	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:39:31 - [11] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Mister Ripley wrote: Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc... http://www.eveonline.com/ "Eve Online. Real Life Science Fiction." When was the last time you read scifi where people fought each other just for ***** and giggles? If I would be immortal IRL, I would do as I like. And if I get kicks out of fighting and dying again and again, I would do it. Just like the aforementioned examples...
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 32	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:49:39 - [12] - Quote [quote=Amarrchecko]Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line...[/qoute] Isn't this what null and sovereignty is all about? And wormholes?
Angel T Hunter Vagrant Skies 35	Posted - 2016.01.07 15:55:11 - [13] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. No.. Best reason is that something explodes on your screen
Annemariela Antonela Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 61	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:03:26 - [14] - Quote Why do anything? Meaning is not something that exists outside of brains, and those brains are temporary, unable to store or transmit in any substantial way their qualitative experiences beyond their own biological arcs. Why do anything at all? GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥ GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 7946	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:03:47 - [15] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: What's the incentive to PVP? Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Ginnie School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 65	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:05:13 - [16] - Quote When was the last time an Alliance took over another Alliance's SOV? Does that happen often? I've read about what it takes to destroy a POS and then take over a SOV, it sounds really involved and time consuming...I can't imagine it happens often... May be Alliances that aren't very active could be taken out in null with pretty limited risk to capitals, but I can't imagine the larger well established and active Alliances would just allow another equally established and active Alliance lay siege their SOV and pound on some of their POS...but, may be I'm wrong... All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
Linna Excel Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:11:36 - [17] - Quote If you don't have X+1 ships before the fight, there's no motive at all. I can has blogging skills!
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 32	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:29:14 - [18] - Quote Ginnie wrote: When was the last time an Alliance took over another Alliance's SOV? Does that happen often? What time scale were you expecting? Daily exchange of dozens of systems? Hourly? Think in terms of months or years.
Josef Djugashvilis 3100	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:36:00 - [19] - Quote Ego. This is not a signature.
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 32	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:39:29 - [20] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: "come struggle in the vast universe of Eve, where your every move is PVP and you are always doing something meaningful to carve out your own niche in the biggest sandbox ever!" I do PVP all the time. I'm fairly good at it. You can check my killboard. ... Yup. Not one kill. Ever. Never shot another player. Hardly even tried. But it's all PVP to me. I go out. I explore. I dive wormholes, null, run combat sites in FW lowsec, haul my billions around. And I watch the scanner. Fit for tank and escape. Study. Learn. Practice. I don't moan about losses. I take risks. I consider my play very meaningful and fun to me. I measure that success in terms of roams without loss, new experiences, jackpots, wealth. It's my niche. I'm using others for content, they're using me. I'm the rabbit in a world of foxes.

Leila Meurtrier Why Am I Not Surprised 76	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:40:38 - [21] - Quote There is no strict "Incentive" to pvp. It's about player mentality. Just think about it: Gathering with strange people you can't trust knowing that at least 3 of them are spies, then sit for eternity on some gate expecting a trap listening on comms, starring: Vomiting dude, dude that think that he is master of singing, dude telling how he went shopping and grabbing 3 T-shirts with some animu girlies on them just for $19.99, dude arguing with his wife on periods, random noob and that-one-guy-that-always-asks-about-silence-on-comm-if-you-ever-shut-up-for-a-split-second. Really? If it was just about profit, it would be the worst job you could sign on. Someone loves to build castles. Someone loves to destroy castles. Someone loves to manipulate people into building/destroying castles. Someone loves to manipulate people into building castles to monopolize them later. Someone loves to pay few dollars to buy services of destroying castles. "Cuz I'm rich and the world is my bGÖÑtch!" Someone loves to build castles that's number one among castles. Someone loves to build castles that's number one among castles, but can't really do it. So he builds Gäû2 castle to destroy Gäû1 later. Someone loves to just produce sand panettons.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 996	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:41:36 - [22] - Quote Wait... We need a reason to PvP other than to defend the right to make pot noodles in the sacred teapot?
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 33	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:56:24 - [23] - Quote One of the mysteries of PVP is to me this. You fit a ship for fighting other ships. You have skill. Yet, if you run into a larger group, it'll be a loss. So, you need mates. But your erstwhile opponents will get some too, lest they lose. Eventually, someone runs out of patience and sets out. And a scout sees them, reporting back their numbers and composition, setting up their side to outmatch the other. Not enough numbers? Perhaps a good plan will swing it in your favor. Flanking. Ambush. Bait. Divide. Composition might alone be enough. But then, they're doing that too. To you. Can you be sure? Safe? No. So you stake your ship on your best effort. For good or ill... It's complex. Real time. With stakes. Yet people often come by and ask about how is it "meaningful". How could it be more so?
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 2678	Posted - 2016.01.07 16:58:19 - [24] - Quote Lemme paint a picture for you.... etch-a-sketch like. My favorite pvp moment was when I was flipping a t1 battlecruiser with a t1 frigate. I hadn't noticed that he had corpmates in system at the time, so the arrival of the second t1 battlecruiser was something of a surprise, but not an unwelcome one. Then the t1 logistics cruiser dropped on field to help. It was a VERY long fight, which they eventually won. I went up in flames under the guns of a three week old newbie. Afterwards I thanked them all for the excitement, as I had LOVED every moment of it. The response I got back was 'Yeah, that was pretty awesome!' The best fun you can have sometimes is making the game more fun for someone else. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, sometimes the real victory is rattling someone else's cage enough to show them that there are other ways to enjoy the game than to mindlessly shoot at NPC's day in and day out. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Paranoid Loyd 8088	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:00:20 - [25] - Quote The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Cidanel Afuran Static-Noise Upholders 557	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:08:04 - [26] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line Come on out to WH space. Speaking as someone who in the past set up a pos with just me and my alts in a WH, I guarantee you will be in this situation sooner or later
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 7948	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:08:58 - [27] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. Linkified for the younglings. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13272	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:30:34 - [28] - Quote There's nothing wrong with liking pvp for the sake of pvp. But that's not what the OP is talking about, he;s asking if there is any "pvp for greater purposes" going on, and the answer is "not as much as before". I remember being a member of a corp in Atlas when we took Omist from the Russians. It was poor space, but it was space. Because it was poor space we (with the help of our friends Red.Overlord, BoB and others) took Insmother, then Detorid to give us access to more resources. And we held them (by the skin of our teech sometimes) while we used to wealth to build up. It culminated with us kicking Red Alliance out of C-J6, their 'ancestral home' as far as the game was concerned. THAT was meaningful pvp. By winning battles, we ended up with better space to rat, explore and mine in, meaning we could then do MORE stuff than we did before we took that space... Now? Now there is no need to do that. Just get an alt and run some incusions/FW missions/highsec lvl 4s whatever and use that isk to buy ships you don't care about to throw at other people with ships they don't care about and try to smile while you're doing it. Great if you are into pvp for the shear pleasure of watching someone else lose something, but not so great if you want your gameplay to actually have an impact on your individual status and enjoyment of the game later on. For me there is still some 'meaningful pvp' when I get into a defense fleet and kill the raiders who are trying to kill my mates who are mining. Killing those neutrals lets me get back to PVEing as well. But it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. Fortunately for me I'm mainly in it for the PVE, but the decline of actually meaningful pvp in EVE is a real loss for this game.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:37:21 - [29] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. Why are you guys in THIS game instead of one that gives you more PVP for less overhead if you PVP just for the sake of PVP and/or for the thrill of victory and agony of defeat?
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:40:24 - [30] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: greater purposes Heh. I have a reply halfway typed up to someone else in the thread that used these exact words. I know that a lot of preparation and effort can go into Eve PVP. But it just doesn't carry much weight, in my opinion, when the only thing that's on the line is the time you put into preparing for and performing the PVP. When there's no purpose beyond the PVP itself... why aren't we all just playing a FPS instead of a game where we need to plex or otherwise worry about isk in order to do any PVP that's more than rookie ships and civilian modules?

Leila Meurtrier Why Am I Not Surprised 76	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:43:36 - [31] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. Why are you guys in THIS game instead of one that gives you more PVP for less overhead if you PVP just for the sake of PVP and/or for the thrill of victory and agony of defeat? Because in your "pvp" games mentioned there are nothing at stake. It's like "loser washes the cars" type of race, really.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:50:50 - [32] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. Why are you guys in THIS game instead of one that gives you more PVP for less overhead if you PVP just for the sake of PVP and/or for the thrill of victory and agony of defeat? Building on this: Good fights over nothing vs. fighting tooth and nail to avoid being evicted from space you call home. Which one of those are you more likely to fondly look back on 5 years from now? If you answer the former, then hats off to you for having a photographic memory (or perhaps keeping a journal of all your GFs?). If you answer the latter, you're damn right fights that have more on the line than zkillboard stats are more memorable. I wish there was more incentive to have the latter in Eve, short of purposely goading someone into hating you enough that they try to wipe you off the map or trying to wipe someone else off the map just to spawn a war out of it. Regional scarcity of select resources would be great, I figure, in creating more conflict with "greater pupose" ... but that's never going to happen since CCP seems to want the opposite.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:56:21 - [33] - Quote Leila Meurtrier wrote: Amarrchecko wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. Why are you guys in THIS game instead of one that gives you more PVP for less overhead if you PVP just for the sake of PVP and/or for the thrill of victory and agony of defeat? Because in your "pvp" games mentioned there are nothing at stake. It's like "loser washes the cars" type of race, really. Match of CS:GO Alterac Valley Battleground T1 cruiser roam Catalyst ganks I don't see much difference in what is "at stake" in any of these. Maybe I need to move into wormholes.
Ginnie School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 66	Posted - 2016.01.07 18:22:55 - [34] - Quote Personally, I think a lot of MMORPGs struggle to "find a point" to PVP...beyond the "fun of it." That's reason we have FW at all. Anyone remember Dark Age of Camelot? That had some awesome PVP... All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
Paranoid Loyd 8089	Posted - 2016.01.07 18:26:32 - [35] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: The thrill of victory and agony of defeat. I guess I just don't feel that much thrill in victory or agony in defeat unless there's more on the line. It's pretty simple, if you want to put more on the line then fly more expensive ships. I however don't see it that way at all, for me it's about the experience. The good ones admittedly come few and far between, but that makes them that much sweeter. I recently had a great fight where I lost a VNI to a Gila, we were both deep in structure and it came down the fact I made a few errors that if I didn't make I would have won. I thought I had him but in the end he prevailed. It's a rush I have never experienced anywhere else, even though it was an agonizing loss, it was still a great experience. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 1460	Posted - 2016.01.07 18:36:04 - [36] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460651 OP is a serial troll, kids. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13274	Posted - 2016.01.07 19:20:29 - [37] - Quote SurrenderMonkey wrote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460651 OP is a serial troll, kids. He may be, I've never read another post of his (and may not want to lol). But he's right to question how things are right now. And as I said it has to do with a lot of things, but I think how this game does rewards is at the heart of it. It's not just old guy nostalgia either. When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... When I 1st went to Omist, it was a race to any anomaly that spawned (this was pre-Dominion/system upgrade features). And if you got one to escalate, you won the damn lottery. I had 3 escalations from anoms yesterday. I did one, made 500 mil (big whoop) and let the other 2 die (or they will die today, one in an hour and one in 3 hours from now) because I can't be arsed even though i got plenty of time being on vacation. Even 1.1 bil plex isn't incentive enough to do them. If I and my alliance lost everything today including my 5 bil worth of ships in our home system, no big deal, I haven an incursion alt and an FW alt. CCP (hopefully inadvertently) created a situation where loss doesn't hurt like it should. That hurt spurs a who lot of good things in a game like EVE (when people get vengeful and/or desperate, epic content gets created), CCP has given us too many cushions and we're all suffering because of it (myself especially, since back in the day I , in my ignorance, was one advocating for more rewards for stuff).
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 996	Posted - 2016.01.07 19:34:25 - [38] - Quote I will say this, eve is one of the few pvp games that really gets my heart beating. For example, Call of Duty is fun. I play it and enjoy it. Still, I've never had to take a breather after a match like I have in EVE. In one fight, I was in a cloaked bomber scouting. The enemy fleet landed on gate with a blackbird at range. I had the task of sneaking close to the blackbird so I could try to drive him for the field while my fleet jumped I to engage. The whole rush of the hunt and trying to get close to do my job was awesome. I can only think of one other fps that had close to that feeling and that game is long gone.
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 33	Posted - 2016.01.07 19:50:03 - [39] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... The wealthy, veteran player helping you earn that first Navy Raven by running his Maelstrom for you must have really sucked.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9777	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:17:02 - [40] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Is this thread really about PvP, or actually about people? It's not about people. It's about a person. Me. It's always all about me. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!

Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13274	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:20:44 - [41] - Quote Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... The wealthy, veteran player helping you earn that first Navy Raven by running his Maelstrom for you must have really sucked. Erm? what?
Deck Cadelanne CAStabouts 271	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:23:21 - [42] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: TL/DR = Why PVP? It's a game, thus it is about having fun. PVP is fun for me. In EVE it's also interesting, unlike in FPS or other types of games, because there are *persistent effects and genuine consequences* - losing ships, losing ISK, a huge range of tools and tactics and variables to contend with and an effectively infinite battlefield. If it wasn't fun it would not be worth spending time doing. There are lots of things in EVE that are no fun at all to me. Hence I don't do trading, mining, hauling, manufacturing...I have a job, I don't need to have a second job "playing" a game. Perfectly happy for other people to do so if that floats their boat. *"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."* - Hunter S. Thompson
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 33	Posted - 2016.01.07 21:33:31 - [43] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... The wealthy, veteran player helping you earn that first Navy Raven by running his Maelstrom for you must have really sucked. Erm? what? You say you had to work to get something. Then you lament how easy it was for another person. Could it be easy because you provided a lot of guidance and help? Who helped you get the Raven? No one? So is it a surprise it was harder then?
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13274	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:20:38 - [44] - Quote Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... The wealthy, veteran player helping you earn that first Navy Raven by running his Maelstrom for you must have really sucked. Erm? what? You say you had to work to get something. Then you lament how easy it was for another person. Could it be easy because you provided a lot of guidance and help? Who helped you get the Raven? No one? So is it a surprise it was harder then? Nonsense. I had help for my 1st Raven from the guy that introduced me to the game (in the same way I helped this other guy by loaning him a t1 battleship). I had to earn my 1st Navy Raven the same way the new guy earned his 1st Machariel, via PVE. You telling me you don't understand what I'm saying? If so, let me put it this way: The guy I helped spent 2 days in 2013 doing what it took me about 90 days to do in 2007. An 88 day difference. Part of why it took so long is that I whelped 3 Ravens as a noob (when losing a t1 BS meant something), unlike my new bro, I didn't have an entire logistics squad to broadcast to. Nowadays people are starting to roam in carriers out of boredom. It's easier to get a carrier hull today via pve than it was to get a t1 BS back in 2009/10. Under the right circumstances a FW mission blitzer can earn a carriers worth of LP in 4-7 hours using nothing more than 1 character in a disposable Stealth Bomber. The point here is that CCP has made it too easy to make isk (both personally and as an organization) in this game ,even right out of the gate, we train noobs to use Navy Vexors now to make as much with a couple weeks training as pro mission blitzers with deep game knowledge did in 2009. This makes many experiences less valuable than they once were. There is no reason beyond boredom or the need to stoke thine epeen to fight over anything if everything is provided so easily.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:37:56 - [45] - Quote SurrenderMonkey wrote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460651 OP is a serial troll, kids. Now now. I ADMITTED that was a fairly ridiculous idea right in the OP, and one or two trolls does not a serial make, and I'm not even sure you can call that a troll since in the end you guys sunk it into my thick skull why PVP and PVE activities are pretty balanced against each other.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 82	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:44:02 - [46] - Quote Ah well. I guess maybe I'm just located in the wrong area of the game if I want to find more meaning in my PVP. I also think I'm in love with Jenna
Leeluvv Polarized 64	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:52:11 - [47] - Quote Ginnie wrote: Personally, I think a lot of MMORPGs struggle to "find a point" to PVP...beyond the "fun of it." That's reason we have FW at all. Anyone remember Dark Age of Camelot? That had some awesome PVP... http://camelotunchained.com
Trudeaux Margaret Imperial Guardians 202	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:27:17 - [48] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Ah well. I guess maybe I'm just located in the wrong area of the game if I want to find more meaning in my PVP. You're in sov null, right? Much of what goes on out there is, IMO, psychological as well as physical, on the spot PvP. Sov alliances have their dedicated pvp'rs and then they have their miners and people who prefer to rat more, and for the enemy to get in there and wear down those PvE players repeatedly can be a win over the long run. So for the people doing it, it serves two goals, kills for the killboard and (hopefully) slowly weakening the enemy from within. [ 2016.01.05 23:16:53 ] Antabor Aldent > anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course? [ 2016.01.05 23:17:39 ] Anoron Secheh > grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 2145	Posted - 2016.01.08 00:12:44 - [49] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: SurrenderMonkey wrote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460651 OP is a serial troll, kids. Now now. I ADMITTED that was a fairly ridiculous idea right in the OP, and one or two trolls does not a serial make, and I'm not even sure you can call that a troll since in the end you guys sunk it into my thick skull why PVP and PVE activities are pretty balanced against each other. Choices > consequences. If you don't like being called on whatever it is you do (or have done) then you shouldn't have done it.
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7327	Posted - 2016.01.08 00:27:45 - [50] - Quote Meaning is a fluid concept. PVP will have different meaning for everyone that plays the game. For me, it's about enjoying EVE to its fullest. For a while there, last year, it was about defending R64s from NCdot. Let me tell you why those two are different. Structure warfare sucks. I can't stand it. I'd much rather be out looking for fights for no other reason than the fight itself, even solo, than conforming to someone else's idea of meaning. That being said, what sets this game apart is that it's basically a PVP arena, where everything you do is in competition with someone else. Wanted to fit up a bunch of Kestrels yesterday, I'd bought everything I needed except the rigs. I opened the market to get them, and found there just weren't enough for the fit I was throwing together. People need to supply them, and then I compete with the demand against other people who want to purchase them. Or, I can try to look after my ships better and not lose them so I don't have to buy new rigs... Which, again, brings us back to meaning. I'll tell you what makes EVE 'real'. I was an SWTOR player for a while, but I've been playing EVE for longer. One thing that always amused me on SWTOR was that when I died, I'd respawn with ALL the gear I had on a moment ago. It'd be damaged, but a quick trip to an NPC vendor took care of that. No need for resources, no need to find a player to help with repairs, and no need to replace my gear. In EVE, when you lose it, it's gone. There's your meaning, a meaning that we all share. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7327	Posted - 2016.01.08 00:30:57 - [51] - Quote Also, as everyone else has made clear, PVP is just fun. No other game can provide the heart-racing adrenalin rush this one can give you, knowing that permanent shiploss is one tiny mistake away. In no other game can one experience the sheer thrill of surviving a battle at ~10% structure and getting away after heavy combat. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ibutho Inkosi Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2016.01.08 01:16:44 - [52] - Quote Tiny pleasures for tiny minds. It's been with us since the dawning of people-kind. Like sitting through two hours of a George Lucas film, then spending the next year arguing about it. There's no sense in telling anyone George Lucas sucks as a writer, and his movies are marginal at best. NooOOOOoooOOOOooooo. They're vicariously rising and falling through blind repetition. That's why we're looking at using chimps to actually become the culture. As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Chopper Rollins Lantean Empire 1193	Posted - 2016.01.08 01:25:37 - [53] - Quote You built a pos tower to mine this moon. You gathered newbros and taught them to mine and rat in safety in the surrounding systems. You set upon roaming explorers and hostile travellers, made friends with locals. Then i arrived, with my gang of spider tanking Domis, reinforcing your tower. You called upon your friends to defend the tower, but i had friends too who dropped dreads. You scattered across the map, after filling local with abuse. We replied with .jpgs from popular entertainment showing women crying, or being pelted with hotdogs. The day your precious tower was destroyed was the most momentous event in the year for you.... ...for me, it was a Tuesday. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Amarrchecko Hedion University Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2016.01.08 01:30:08 - [54] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Amarrchecko wrote: SurrenderMonkey wrote: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=460651 OP is a serial troll, kids. Now now. I ADMITTED that was a fairly ridiculous idea right in the OP, and one or two trolls does not a serial make, and I'm not even sure you can call that a troll since in the end you guys sunk it into my thick skull why PVP and PVE activities are pretty balanced against each other. Choices > consequences. If you don't like being called on whatever it is you do (or have done) then you shouldn't have done it. I expect you'll deliver another 4-5 troll threads to substantiate your serial troll accusation then. It's not like you said "OP has posted a less-than-super-serious thread once or twice, kids."
Alaric Faelen Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes 343	Posted - 2016.01.08 01:50:25 - [55] - Quote Since I came to Eve specifically to PvP, I don't really need an incentive. The idea of being a space pirate appealed to me so I began playing with that goal in mind. Like so many others, I got sidetracked just trying to make isk enough to watch a Rifter explode 20 seconds into any fight. Took me too long to get out and PvP. Eventually I broke away and went to low sec and typed YAAARRRR into local. Because I play this one character, and only this one acct- my actions had real consequences. My sec status dropped and pretty soon it was hard to do 'safe' PvE in high sec and pirate in low sec. That drove me to make friends that could keep me supplied (more interesting than just rolling an alt to dodge sec status). Eventually it drove me to -10 with everyone open to shoot me. So for me, part of the incentive was to drive the 'story' for my character. Because I didn't dodge the consequences of being an outlaw, my game was altered dynamically, which was just fun to play. When I got tired of being shoot-on-sight for all of New Eden I moved to Sov Null- if anyone can kill you on sight, might as well go where sec status doesn't matter. The real reason I went to Sov was to take part in the really big fights. I spent a year in low sec maxing out core skills instead of chasing larger and larger PvE ships. So when I moved to null, I had solid skills and just needed to train for the shiny hulls. The best part of sov life is the SRP. Given that, there is no good reason NOT to PvP. I don't care if I lose a bil isk Blops- I will be reimbursed for it. I only need to PvE to initially buy a doctrine ship- after that it is basically insured at 100% by my alliance. Eve's PvP is amazing. It's PvE is pretty bad. Guess which one I am incentivized to do...... (credit where it's do- CCP has been working on the AI)
Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 502	Posted - 2016.01.08 09:54:44 - [56] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Nowadays, for too many people, it's only anymore about their own fun and entertainment. People remove meaning from everything nowadays, changing it all into something shallow. Is this thread really about PvP, or actually about people? Players are people, therefore.... yes?
Arya Ikahrus 21	Posted - 2016.01.08 11:05:30 - [57] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: What's the incentive to PVP? If you're old and rich, not much I guess? Me, I'm relatively young and definitely poor. If I'm shooting you it's because I want or need something and if I lose I'll feel it. If I made it to a trillion isk with a hangar full of pimp fit bling and nothing to do but shoot people I'd probably stop logging in, PvP is fun in Eve, but a large part of it for me is the risk of loss.
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 256	Posted - 2016.01.08 13:12:45 - [58] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Mister Ripley wrote: Fun for fun's sake is not enough? Like.. you know... sex, food, drugs, music, sports, etc... http://www.eveonline.com/ "Eve Online. Real Life Science Fiction." When was the last time you read scifi where people fought each other just for ***** and giggles? I'm not saying that fun for fun's sake isn't enough. But CCP doesn't try to sell this game as a "come PVP in Eve because PVP in Eve is fun" ... it tries to sell this game as "come struggle in the vast universe of Eve, where your every move is PVP and you are always doing something meaningful to carve out your own niche in the biggest sandbox ever!" Technically... every major war ever. Reasonings behind wars typically devolve into "x leader(s) wanted to kill y leader(s) or take their stuff" Yes yes opinions blah blah blah.. its still technically true for most wars. But on to serious matters.. Eve is a sandbox. Ergo PVP is also a sandbox. In sandboxes you dont get tiered rewards for doing something. You craft and choose your own rewards. What you want is a tiered PVP system ala wow, wildstar, etc. IE: I kill X noobs and get better gear so i can kill a new class of noobs!". This is not how eve works. Just go blow sh*t up and use the brainpan.
Daerrol Death By Design Did he say Jump 286	Posted - 2016.01.08 17:14:41 - [59] - Quote Lots of PVP is over control of solar systems and regions. For instance, JUMP-N, my alliance, is currently involved in a war against Dead Terrorists. It's more complex than that of course, with plenty of other entities being involved but from our POV that's how it's going. You want meaningful PVP? Find some Khanid or Genesis solar systems with both good moons and agents (maybe a whole constellation) then oust everyone who lives there and you have a home that makes tons of ISK. Now fight off people who come to claim said home
Daerrol Death By Design Did he say Jump 286	Posted - 2016.01.08 17:18:20 - [60] - Quote Arya Ikahrus wrote: Amarrchecko wrote: What's the incentive to PVP? If you're old and rich, not much I guess? Me, I'm relatively young and definitely poor. If I'm shooting you it's because I want or need something and if I lose I'll feel it. If I made it to a trillion isk with a hangar full of pimp fit bling and nothing to do but shoot people I'd probably stop logging in, PvP is fun in Eve, but a large part of it for me is the risk of loss. At a trillion ISK you start doing titan Drive-bys, and there's still very real risk. Or small gang in AT ships worth up to 200 billion each :)

Action Nerd Petulant Luddite GmbH 3	Posted - 2016.01.08 18:08:02 - [61] - Quote OP, you mentioned WoW How many times did you LFG or LFR and want to kill the asshat hunter who would constantly lose you tanks by pulling too fast, or was just needing on every single thing in the dungeon? How many times did you want to kill the annoying spambots and trolls? Here, you can kill the whiners, the mostly afk miner bots, and the rude. This is not my only reason for PvP, but it is certainly my favorite. Kevin: Yes, why does there have to be evil? Supreme Being: I think it has something to do with free will.
Johan Civire Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1044	Posted - 2016.01.08 20:53:26 - [62] - Quote TBH i do not pvp, i do not like you got better stats so win. Sorry. But i enjoy other stuff in eve.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2199	Posted - 2016.01.08 20:56:37 - [63] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Fa Xian wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: When is tarted playing it took me 3 months of logging in every night to earn the isk to pay for my 1st Navy Raven. A couple years ago I help out a dude who was new to the game (a friend of one of my corp mates) with a Maelstrom I wasn't using. 2 Days of high sec incursions and he was in a Machariel... The wealthy, veteran player helping you earn that first Navy Raven by running his Maelstrom for you must have really sucked. Erm? what? You say you had to work to get something. Then you lament how easy it was for another person. Could it be easy because you provided a lot of guidance and help? Who helped you get the Raven? No one? So is it a surprise it was harder then? Nonsense. I had help for my 1st Raven from the guy that introduced me to the game (in the same way I helped this other guy by loaning him a t1 battleship). I had to earn my 1st Navy Raven the same way the new guy earned his 1st Machariel, via PVE. You telling me you don't understand what I'm saying? If so, let me put it this way: The guy I helped spent 2 days in 2013 doing what it took me about 90 days to do in 2007. An 88 day difference. Part of why it took so long is that I whelped 3 Ravens as a noob (when losing a t1 BS meant something), unlike my new bro, I didn't have an entire logistics squad to broadcast to. Nowadays people are starting to roam in carriers out of boredom. It's easier to get a carrier hull today via pve than it was to get a t1 BS back in 2009/10. Under the right circumstances a FW mission blitzer can earn a carriers worth of LP in 4-7 hours using nothing more than 1 character in a disposable Stealth Bomber. The point here is that CCP has made it too easy to make isk (both personally and as an organization) in this game ,even right out of the gate, we train noobs to use Navy Vexors now to make as much with a couple weeks training as pro mission blitzers with deep game knowledge did in 2009. This makes many experiences less valuable than they once were. There is no reason beyond boredom or the need to stoke thine epeen to fight over anything if everything is provided so easily. While I agree with a lot of this, there is another side to the coin as well. Making it easier to make ISK also theoretically gives people more time to PVP. In reality, people seem to spend the extra time grinding for PLEX or further pimping their PVE ships. When I first came to 0.0 it took a lot of time and energy to earn enough ISK for PVP ships. This made losses more meaningful - each lost ship represented many hours of work destroyed. Destroying a ratting Battleship was a big deal - potentially you could really cripple a player for quite a while. Today, destroying a ratting Ishtar or Gila is nothing. Yet I am still happy when I catch one. For me, Eve PVP has always been a lot like real hunting (one of my other hobbies). The hard part of hunting is not usually killing a deer - rifles and other modern weapons greatly simplify that and make it more humane - it's finding, tracking, and putting yourself in a position to take the shot. I enjoy Eve PVP because it is generally so easy to avoid a fight, so the real struggle is in surprising, baiting, or tricking your opponent into an fight. I rarely catch something I cannot kill, but I find a lot of things I cannot catch. Not all good PVP sessions end in a kill mail. The mental game of keeping track of the relative positions of friends and enemies in time and space, while hiding your strengths, and the maneuvering and fighting your own space ship, is the best PVP in any game I have played. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2199	Posted - 2016.01.08 21:01:39 - [64] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: TBH i do not pvp, i do not like you got better stats so win. Sorry. But i enjoy other stuff in eve. There is far more to PVP than stats. Almost the only time stats really matter is in an arranged 1v1 (which I don't do because I don't like consensual PVP, it is a pointless waste of time, not a true contest of opposing wills). Even in an arranged 1v1, player tactics and maneuvers play a huge part (unless both players suck and it truly is a brawl between two mindless morons). CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 305	Posted - 2016.01.08 21:25:40 - [65] - Quote PvP in Eve, for me, is a mix of being hunter and fisherman at the same time, knowing that there is always a bigger fish than you. It is the thrill of the hunt and the patience required to do a successful catch that does it for me. Check Zosius blog if you want an example of the kind of thrill I am talking about. Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XI "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. Freedom fighters, unite with Chao3
Arya Ikahrus 28	Posted - 2016.01.08 21:31:41 - [66] - Quote Daerrol wrote: At a trillion ISK you start doing titan Drive-bys, and there's still very real risk. Or small gang in AT ships worth up to 200 billion each :) I'll bear it in mind for if I ever reach those lofty heights .
Commander Spurty Moosearmy I N G L O R I O U S 1609	Posted - 2016.01.08 21:51:00 - [67] - Quote Incentives to PVP: - to take someone else's stuff - to defend your stuff - to purge non-blues from your space - to protect and defend the miners (without whom, you would have to get all your stuff from two people. They hate you!) Reasons to PVP are completely different set of answers: - because that's fun for you - to make money from looting their wrecks - huge ego, need to waggle it around on killboards (knobs reason) - to stop others from making money you wanted Other than that, you should be making money because if you don't have 5 trillion ISK, you're not keeping up. There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Spurty Moosearmy I N G L O R I O U S 1609	Posted - 2016.01.08 21:51:00 - [68] - Quote Incentives to PVP: - to take someone else's stuff - to defend your stuff - to purge non-blues from your space - to protect and defend the miners (without whom, you would have to get all your stuff from two people. They hate you!) Reasons to PVP are completely different set of answers: - because that's fun for you - to make money from looting their wrecks - huge ego, need to waggle it around on killboards (knobs reason) - to stop others from making money you wanted Other than that, you should be making money because if you don't have 5 trillion ISK, you're not keeping up. There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Mercury Madullier Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.01.08 22:36:16 - [69] - Quote Angel T Hunter wrote: Amarrchecko wrote: TLDR version: I know that the best reason to PVP is because you like to PVP. No.. Best reason is that something explodes on your screen You beat me to it. This is exactly if for me. When I PvP I am usually guaranteed at least one su-splosion. AND as I get better at it I may get 2 or more at a time (cuz who is going to let something like the cost of a ship get in the way of one more splosion?).
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 86	Posted - 2016.01.08 22:56:13 - [70] - Quote PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers.

FT Diomedes The Graduates 2200	Posted - 2016.01.09 00:20:53 - [71] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Players have always been risk averse. E-war and Logistics do not make people risk averse - you are confusing the cure for risk adversity with the underlying condition. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Doc J Assisted Homicide 18	Posted - 2016.01.09 00:27:10 - [72] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Players have always been risk averse. E-war and Logistics do not make people risk averse - you are confusing the cure for risk adversity with the underlying condition. Dude - I remember the days when people would engage because it was the need of the gamer to have fun. We would go toe to toe and it would be a battle of who more skill and awareness. Now these days as soon as logi and ewar are in intel the call is to stand down unless the opposing fleet can match them. Thats risk aversion right there caused by logi and ewar.
Ria Nieyli 38113	Posted - 2016.01.09 00:34:32 - [73] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Players have always been risk averse. E-war and Logistics do not make people risk averse - you are confusing the cure for risk adversity with the underlying condition. Making correct gameplay decisions is now "risk averse". Really?
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2016.01.09 01:23:59 - [74] - Quote It says a lot for the state of PVP when the most fun i've had in eve for a long time involved no logi, limited EWAR, and was an organised good old battleship fight.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 269	Posted - 2016.01.09 02:45:09 - [75] - Quote Fa Xian wrote: But it's all PVP to me. Not to me, PvP always used to be combat PvP. If market trading for instance was PvP then that would mean all MMOs and all their different servers, PvE, RP, RPPvP and PvP would all be either RPPvP or PvP, there would be no PvE or RP servers.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 269	Posted - 2016.01.09 02:58:23 - [76] - Quote I think PvP changed when killmails were introduced. Ended up with players looking for easy kills just to increase the amount of kills they had, bragging rights. So KMs kind of killed any meaningful reason in MMOs (except for arena style PvP), beyond collecting points and for the fun. Although you soon get bored if kills are too easy all the time, well I know I would.
Ria Nieyli 38123	Posted - 2016.01.09 03:00:47 - [77] - Quote Implying that some people won't be looking for easy kill regardless of whether killmails exist or not.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 269	Posted - 2016.01.09 03:41:55 - [78] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Implying that some people won't be looking for easy kill regardless of whether killmails exist or not. There's always going to be those that want a decent fight regardless of kilmails. But as it's an MMO and a lot opted for easy kills because of killmails, it did have an impact on open world PvP.
Kaivar Lancer Placid Peace Corps 708	Posted - 2016.01.09 11:45:18 - [79] - Quote When I PVP, I do it for the epic killmails. You know how serial killers like to keep mementos of their victims? Well, I do that with KMs, and wave my victorious T1 vs T3 KMs like a big swinging e-peen.
Pookoko Sigma Sagittarii Inc. 137	Posted - 2016.01.09 12:11:19 - [80] - Quote ISK is definitely an issue. For me I make no isk from space. Well I do sometimes but it's totally insignificant compared to what I make through my station characters doing trading. I have no need for a 'better system' with better anoms or better ores or better signatures, because I don't make isk from those resources. And when you lose billions and it actually makes you lol instead of sad or angry or depressed or heart pounding like it used to when losing a ship was a big deal financially, then it certainly loses its meaning somewhat. I often engage with less than 50% chance of me winning, knowing full well that it's more likely I lose the ship than I survive, knowing full well that if I lost my ship it would be heavier loss than if I killed the other guy (this usually happens when you are flying T2/T3 vs. multiple T1 ships). I don't care about KB efficiency at all and isk flows well enough from market activities that I don't need to go back to any activity I don't enjoy in order to cover for loss. So it's all about pure hedonistic pleasure. Always fly what I feel like flying, always try new fits, even if it's stupid or whacky, engage against the odds at the end of the night because seriously, I just want to at least shoot something before I log off for the night. :p So yeah, it's all for fun.

FT Diomedes The Graduates 2202	Posted - 2016.01.09 13:40:26 - [81] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Players have always been risk averse. E-war and Logistics do not make people risk averse - you are confusing the cure for risk adversity with the underlying condition. Making correct gameplay decisions is now "risk averse". Really? Yes, I do not view being risk averse as a bad thing. It just makes sense. In many ways, Eve is a game about managing risk. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1308	Posted - 2016.01.09 14:10:03 - [82] - Quote I think you have hit the nail on the head on one of the issues with Eve. In 2011 the alliance I was in found a niche and took 4 poor systems and renting them from Atlas at a cheap price in Querious, we had a great time pretending to be renters next to other renter types and killed a lot of stuff. Then the alliance that took over Atlas space came all greedy on us and we left to do something else. At that point it was only possible to do such things under the cover of the major entities and the fun was kicking people who roamed into what was our prime time late AU TZ. In 2009 say what you want about the POS sov system it created some epic fights such as the IRC / ED fight against RA. The fun part about that period was that the Goons were the first to start camping us, but we made it too tough for them so they went after Krysis instead, they did send two Au TZ alliances to go after our sov space and we managed to win by getting help from the dying remnents of Morsus Mihi, great times and the most fun I have had in Eve, defending rubbish space that we wanted, the two Goon aligned alliances even begged us for an organised fight which I refused, our fight was to defend our space and not some bull honour fight. However it also became apparant to me that with the ease of infiltration that a small entity was pretty much in an impossible situation, add to that cloaking camping and the total dominance of capital swarms there was no way that we could hold or take space, most of us just played at it around the periphery or joined groups that held space and walked when they got the attention of the more predatory groups who could just take the space without breaking sweat. It became too difficult that you would be the turkey in the turkey shoot. So why bother? My last period in Eve was fun in that I was killing mission runners in Stain of the Soviet Union, but it was hollow, not fun and got samey. If I could get back to what I saw in 2011 then I would however there are predatory alliances that will just come in with their spy accounts then hell camp you, I guess I am waiting for them to die, and while I see signs that the Goons are dying, PL is not sadly. CCP have not given enough tools for small alliances to keep a toehold against those entities, while that is the case expect us not to bother, and I repeat myself from another thread, a structure that can be cloaked that enables a player to stay in his own space regardless of his enemy destroying his main structures, CCP nerfed logistics so much for us little guys that the thought of moving around blocks me before I even start, so the idea to safeguard assets does not quite get there either... Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
Deck Cadelanne CAStabouts 272	Posted - 2016.01.09 16:23:02 - [83] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Clearly, EWAR and logi make combat more complicated than you would prefer it to be. Groups that effectively employ EWAR and/or logi can be harder to defeat than those that do not especially if you don't understand how EWAR and logi work or refuse to adapt your tactics accordingly. EWAR and logi require different tactics and countermeasures, that's all. In fact, EWAR and logi offer another aspect to PVP that encourages players who (either through lack of "skill" or lack of ISK) might feel they are unable to get into PVP to make a real contribution to fights. I'd argue that EWAR and logi add to the motivation to and options for PVP. *"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."* - Hunter S. Thompson
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 307	Posted - 2016.01.09 20:23:07 - [84] - Quote Commander Spurty wrote: Reasons to PVP are completely different set of answers: ... - huge ego, need to waggle it around on killboards (knobs reason) ... You do not do PvP when you are motivated that way. You simply go into fleets with a decent FC, and boost up your killmails without much risks, and whore on kill mails whenever your PvPer wingmates catch something and call in for whoring. In fact those with 95%+ killboards stats will 99,9% of the time only be whorers and fleet lemmings, not PvPers PS : I forgot the KM doctors, i.e. characters that will set up the stage for a succesful PvP interactions with different alts, and bring in their shiny "PvPer" on the kill once the victory is sure. They are not very different than whorers, just a bit more sophisticated int he way they do it. Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XI "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. Freedom fighters, unite with Chao3
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2016.01.10 02:16:08 - [85] - Quote Deck Cadelanne wrote: Clearly, EWAR and logi make combat more complicated than you would prefer it to be. Groups that effectively employ EWAR and/or logi can be harder to defeat than those that do not especially if you don't understand how EWAR and logi work or refuse to adapt your tactics accordingly. Adaption basically means "bring more logi and ewar" YAWN. Deck Cadelanne wrote: EWAR and logi require different tactics and countermeasures, that's all. In fact, EWAR and logi offer another aspect to PVP that encourages players who (either through lack of "skill" or lack of ISK) might feel they are unable to get into PVP to make a real contribution to fights. I'd argue that EWAR and logi add to the motivation to and options for PVP. I think you might be 1 in a 100 who thinks that.
Mithandra Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 398	Posted - 2016.01.10 02:49:33 - [86] - Quote For me Pvp is not my first love in eve. However i pvp. Why? 1. You are in my region, messing with my stuff. 2. I like your region and would like to mess with your stuff Its all about stuff, defending my stuff or purloining yours. Stuff. Mmmmmmmmm Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
ll Kuray ll The Scope Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2016.01.10 13:03:15 - [87] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: PVP in Eve iss being ruined by EWAR and Logi. These two things along with inflation have made players risk averse. If the devs did any research into gamification they would realise they have made decision that go against all of the well documented and well researched theory papers. Players have always been risk averse. E-war and Logistics do not make people risk averse - you are confusing the cure for risk adversity with the underlying condition. Making correct gameplay decisions is now "risk averse". Really? Yes, I do not view being risk averse as a bad thing. It just makes sense. In many ways, Eve is a game about managing risk. Yeah you're right. So much risk in a important internet spaceship game.
Ria Nieyli 38195	Posted - 2016.01.10 13:18:11 - [88] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Yes, I do not view being risk averse as a bad thing. It just makes sense. In many ways, Eve is a game about managing risk. I guess researching fits for your spaceship and trying to optimise it before you go out and fight is risk aversion too?
Thorian Baalnorn Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.01.11 06:42:23 - [89] - Quote I dont know what drives everyone else to pvp but my reason is simple: AI scripts are predictable. Even complex ones are predictable. Even ones that "learn" are predictable. Humans by their very nature are unpredictable. * What ship are they using? Hows mine match up? How did they fit it? Are they using T1? T2? Faction? Deadspace? * Do they have neuts? Tackle? * Shield armor or hull tanked? * Short or long range weaps? * Active or passive tank? * Whats their skill set? Can they barely fit in the ship or they all L5s for the whole fit? * They have allies nearby? * What might drop if i kill them?Maybe they have faction/deadspace? * Can i beat them in my ship? Should i try? * Are they going to run? Fly close in? Try to stay outside my range? PVE is much like working in a factory, you do a certain task in a certain order and you get a certain reward. PVP is like a hobby, Its fun and unpredictable and sometimes you make( or kill in this case) something really awesome, but sometimes it just doesnt work out. But it doesnt matter because you still had fun doing it. There will never be an NPC that is more challenging than a player because at the end of of the day the NPC can only do what it is told to do while a player may do anything and ive seen them do some pretty unpredictable things. And thats the fun of pvp. Its like chess...on megasteroids
Bad Messenger Rehabilitation Clinic 863	Posted - 2016.01.11 06:55:04 - [90] - Quote I am guy ho never kills just for fun. I need reason to fight. Lately it has been really hard to find real reason to fight, 0.0 has no reason, FW is dead, highsec wars pretty useless (suicide ganking more effective and that is not my style). so 500+ days from last pvp encounter for me.

LordInvisible Nova Ardour Mafia Horde 21	Posted - 2016.01.11 08:12:38 - [91] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: There's nothing wrong with liking pvp for the sake of pvp. But that's not what the OP is talking about, he;s asking if there is any "pvp for greater purposes" going on, and the answer is "not as much as before". I remember being a member of a corp in Atlas when we took Omist from the Russians. It was poor space, but it was space. Because it was poor space we (with the help of our friends Red.Overlord, BoB and others) took Insmother, then Detorid to give us access to more resources. And we held them (by the skin of our teech sometimes) while we used to wealth to build up. It culminated with us kicking Red Alliance out of C-J6, their 'ancestral home' as far as the game was concerned. THAT was meaningful pvp. By winning battles, we ended up with better space to rat, explore and mine in, meaning we could then do MORE stuff than we did before we took that space... Now? Now there is no need to do that. Just get an alt and run some incusions/FW missions/highsec lvl 4s whatever and use that isk to buy ships you don't care about to throw at other people with ships they don't care about and try to smile while you're doing it. Great if you are into pvp for the shear pleasure of watching someone else lose something, but not so great if you want your gameplay to actually have an impact on your individual status and enjoyment of the game later on. For me there is still some 'meaningful pvp' when I get into a defense fleet and kill the raiders who are trying to kill my mates who are mining. Killing those neutrals lets me get back to PVEing as well. But it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. Fortunately for me I'm mainly in it for the PVE, but the decline of actually meaningful pvp in EVE is a real loss for this game. Very nicely written, since I'm also from that era..
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 1094	Posted - 2016.01.11 09:27:15 - [92] - Quote yes its been always like that. aside of the fact that noone wants to fight bunch of interceptors in Interceptors Online like it is now.
LordInvisible Nova Ardour Mafia Horde 21	Posted - 2016.01.11 09:40:07 - [93] - Quote Interceptors supported by frig logis and ECM..
Thorian Baalnorn Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.01.11 14:44:37 - [94] - Quote LordInvisible wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: There's nothing wrong with liking pvp for the sake of pvp. But that's not what the OP is talking about, he;s asking if there is any "pvp for greater purposes" going on, and the answer is "not as much as before". I remember being a member of a corp in Atlas when we took Omist from the Russians. It was poor space, but it was space. Because it was poor space we (with the help of our friends Red.Overlord, BoB and others) took Insmother, then Detorid to give us access to more resources. And we held them (by the skin of our teech sometimes) while we used to wealth to build up. It culminated with us kicking Red Alliance out of C-J6, their 'ancestral home' as far as the game was concerned. THAT was meaningful pvp. By winning battles, we ended up with better space to rat, explore and mine in, meaning we could then do MORE stuff than we did before we took that space... Now? Now there is no need to do that. Just get an alt and run some incusions/FW missions/highsec lvl 4s whatever and use that isk to buy ships you don't care about to throw at other people with ships they don't care about and try to smile while you're doing it. Great if you are into pvp for the shear pleasure of watching someone else lose something, but not so great if you want your gameplay to actually have an impact on your individual status and enjoyment of the game later on. For me there is still some 'meaningful pvp' when I get into a defense fleet and kill the raiders who are trying to kill my mates who are mining. Killing those neutrals lets me get back to PVEing as well. But it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. Fortunately for me I'm mainly in it for the PVE, but the decline of actually meaningful pvp in EVE is a real loss for this game. Very nicely written, since I'm also from that era.. I too am from that era and i was in atlas during the fall. I feel like that was the end of an era in eve. Not the fall of atlas but that time period in general. CCP was trying to combat major alliances holding several regions. Trying to get us to take only what we need rather than own half the map. Atlas at the time had pretty close to 5 regions. its a ridiculous amount of space for an alliance. Then the game changed, CCP tried to get alliances to confine their empires to what they needed rather than own 20 meh systems to get 5 really good systems. Renters started to become pretty common and now it seems like everyone is renting. A lot of people blame the change on alliances like PL,NC, Goons. They take space just because they can and then rent it out and use the money to fund their campaign. The way things use to be is you would have an alliance that was both indy and pvp/combat. Some corps were combat mostly and others were mostly indy. The indy corps supported the combat corps and the combat corps provided a local market for the indy corps. But then something changed. PVP corps got tired of indy corps " not contributing" in battle and indy corps got tired of constantly trying to be forced to defend their space. So they spilt. Alliances are now almost either exclusively pvp or exclusively PVE. The PVPers dont really do much but rat and run sites in their space. And the indy peeps have no desire to defend their space or get a CTA together. They rather just wait it out in the dock until the aggressors get bored and go home. I am old school when it comes to null. I feel like everyone should earn a right to be there and not just be able to pay their way in. I remember when i was young and running around high sec with my corp. We had a desire to hold null space some day. We would recruit people with the same desire, participated in wars for practice and did roams in low sec to practice gang and fleet ops. Even our indy guys would fly in the gangs. They werent very good at combat and had marginal combat skills so we would put them in medium to long range fits and tell them to just point and shoot and run from enemy ships. We did the tackle and ewar, they just did support. Those days are gone. Its been replaced with this borefest of pvp alliances taking space all the time and then renting it out to carebears. No one earns their space anymore they just rent it. And those who take space, dont take it cause they need it, they take it just for lols. They dont use the space they take. CCP tries to keep their interference in the game minimal letting the players dictate much of what goes on inside of eve. They give us nudges sometimes in the direction they would like things to go. But we are stubborn and we often find a way around it... like when they introduced TCUs and such and made systems upgradable . But really what we need is the heavy hand of the EVE gods to smack us around a bit. We need something heavy handed to put things back the way they use to be. Where alliances used the space the took and defended the space they owned. Where you earn your place in null not buy your way in. Null is suppose to be a reward for higher risk and more work. Now its a carebear fest managed by a few dictators on power trips. Everyone stopped playing Eve and started playing " Overlord: Renter's Edition"
Mithandra Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn 404	Posted - 2016.01.11 15:52:48 - [95] - Quote While I do agree with the sentiments voiced in the above post, I have to say that the current situation with EVE was inevitable once people worked out how to make real money from the game. Yes, CCP ban RMT'rs however it's still going on. We know it, and CCP knows it. Further; as a species we are actually risk averse. Note I say , as a species. Individuals vary in their tolerance for risk, but once grouped together we fort up. So how do we make money and stay safe? we group together in ever larger groupings, assimilating the small fry, NAPping or Nipping the ones we cant swallow up, and Invading where we sense weakness. This works for most of the eve population, however the barbarians amongst us lament their confinement in guilded cages, wishing for the halcyon days of carnage and mayhem spreading across all of known space. Civilisation. Its creeping influence has reached EVE. Short of some form of mutually assured destruction being embraced by the big boys, oh and RMT becoming impossible, the current slide into bland and risk free gameplay will continue. Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 3291	Posted - 2016.01.21 10:11:45 - [96] - Quote Boredom, profit, revenge? To show them who's the boss? You people think too much. We need more emotion driven narrative. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17136	Posted - 2016.01.21 12:24:19 - [97] - Quote Deck Cadelanne wrote: Clearly, EWAR and logi make combat more complicated than you would prefer it to be. In terms of logi they make killing the enemy impossible past a point. These days you wither can break the logi or you dont undock Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17136	Posted - 2016.01.21 12:32:22 - [98] - Quote welp Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7485	Posted - 2016.01.21 13:10:30 - [99] - Quote Logging on is my incentive to PVP. Because PVP is why I'm playing this PVP game. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7485	Posted - 2016.01.21 13:11:27 - [100] - Quote baltec1 wrote: welp That's what she said. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Seraph Essael eXceed Inc. 1169	Posted - 2016.01.21 13:11:49 - [101] - Quote Amarrchecko wrote: Did Eve ever have a bunch of PVP where people fought because their home was on the line Come to wormhole space. Evictions don't happen all that often any more, but they still happen. Some people roll over and just give up and move **** out. Others actually fight for their home. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."


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