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Change in the wind for virtual property sales?

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HatePeace LoveWar Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.30 11:28:00 - [61] Gah please don't get rid of GTC, or in the very least fix the paypall issue before you decide to drop them.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.01.30 12:06:00 - [62] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Nero Scuro the only way to buy ISK with cash is off CCP through GTCs. This will soon change. Unfortunately, I cannot go further into the forthcoming changes at this time. God, forum panics ftw. Now calm down, and read again what Kieron said, and what he responded to. So what's going to change? The fact that right now the only way to buy ISK with cash is through GTC sales. He's not saying how that's going to change. I'll bet CCP are going to introduce a service where you can buy ISK with cash directly from them. And they'll keep the GTC for ISK business too. Unfortunately.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.30 12:50:00 - [63] Good stuff! RMT s a topic fervently discussed time and again on various occasions and forums, and it is indeed relevant in modern online gaming. I am going to briefly explain why I object it. Games are restricted, virtual environments for competition. We are given different tools and are required to complete different tasks to advance. Games, like life in general and it's different facets more specifically, favour certain skills and attributes. In this way, those attributes and skills are measured, and rewards designated accordingly. Take for example market brokering in EVE. The skills and attributes required (or encouraged) may be, for example wit, patience, perseverance, willingness to take risks and understanding of mathematics and economy. These may or may not be accurate, but the point is that certain player dependent skills or attributes are favoured, and that way measured. Players thrive to excel in brokering and in other facets of EVE, many of which require different skill sets and attributes. The competition, therefore, is built around these requirements as much as a running competition is built around being fast and/or having stamina. To introduce a new, unrelated way of competing and reaching the rewards previously only accessible through certain traits and skills such as the possibility of converting out of game assets into game assets is to fundamentally alter the nature of that competition. The effect such change has on players' motivation is undoubtedly great. Players who were motivated to develop, learn and work for goals will be betrayed by the alternative route to success. Their achievements are undermined by an unjustifiable factor. Competition is what makes games fun. A game of chess challenges players to think strategically -- winning and losing are of course inevitably inherent to the game, but the challenge and the joy of improving are also essential. If you introduce an unrelated factor like how well someone can sing, how much money they have or how many plastic ducks they own, it beats the purpose of that game. Of course you can argue that the money and the plastic ducks are well earned, but that is completely irrelevant. The point of the game is to test strategic thinking, not measure plastic duck collections. They have their own games and competitions for that. So, in conclusion, just because someone is an olympic swimmer does not mean they deserve to automatically win a cycling contest. That is the gist of unjustifiable manipulation of measured skills, attributes and resources. It is often argued that time is the basic unit that should be convertable to games. Following the same logic people who spend time practicing tennis should be equally good in scuba diving. Or, in fact, everyone should be good in everything because everyone spends their time on something and it's just brutally unfair that they have to choose. ---
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2007.01.30 13:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 27/01/2007 18:28:11 Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 26/01/2007 21:38:07 Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 26/01/2007 21:37:52 Not sure how many read Slashdot on here but just saw this VERY interesting story: The Summary of the Story Basically eBay has decided to take the policy of de-listing all virtual goods sales (gold, isk, items etc) since the legality of selling other's IPO is very nebulous. Pretty interesting stuff if they actually follow through with the promised bans of repeat offenders. This perhaps doesn't have quite as much relevance here since the sanctioned way of getting isk is to buy a GTC and then sell it on the Sell forums (that discussion is best left to existing threads). Just thought i'd start a discussion about eBay's new policy and how it might positively/negatively impact EVE. I think this does fall as EVE related though as if you have ever looked there are hundreds of ISK auctions and Character sales for EVE on eBay. Cerwyn Edit: made it a link and gave reasoning for why its eve related Edit2: updated topic to refer to eBay having worked in a department almost solely dedicated to trawling e-bay and removing auctions of this nature for a games company, i think it's about time that this happened. real world traders are scum, and they tie up resources and man power that could be better spent making improvements that the real players would like to see. ========================================== Iy
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.30 16:54:00 - [65] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 30/01/2007 16:50:54 Ultimately, the game runs on the backs of the people who pay, not the people who play. Right now, we have people who seem to love playing EVE, and love maintaining accounts, but not enough to pay for those accounts. Accounts that are using up research slots in the stations, memory on the nodes, memory in the database, and bandwith in places like Jita. These are finite resources that subscribers who pay each month must share alongside those that refuse to pay for the service. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected])
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.01.30 17:03:00 - [66] Well I don't really like the GTC for isk issue, but the people doing it ARE paying for their subscription because somewhere, somehow, along the line of sales, CCP is getting paid for the Gametime card by whoever is reselling it for isk here, so it really doesnt matter WHO uses it as long as the GTC was bought and not stolen somehow.
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.30 17:39:00 - [67] Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Well I don't really like the GTC for isk issue, but the people doing it ARE paying for their subscription because somewhere, somehow, along the line of sales, CCP is getting paid for the Gametime card by whoever is reselling it for isk here, so it really doesnt matter WHO uses it as long as the GTC was bought and not stolen somehow. The only ones who are paying for their subscriptions are people like me, and we pay for it in terms of a compromised game. The guy who bought the GTCs some time ago doesn't pay for it, because he never took up any service resources today. Nor does the person who buys the GTCs for ISK pay for it, because they never paid revenue to maintain and expand the finite service resources today. The ones who pay for it are the ones who are running around looking for a research slot, fighting lag, and trying to get petitions answered. Because not only are they paying this month, for service this month, they have to put up with people running four and five extra accounts demanding equal service for each at the level of someone who paid this month, but pay nothing this month for the privilege. Whatever was sold or not sold from CCP's store over the last three years shouldn't impact my experience this month, but it is. Because I pay for a month of service this month, and if the reason I'm experiencing late petitions, or full research slots, or memory leaks this month is because the ones who aren't paying this month are demanding monthly service in excess, then I'm not getting the service I should expect this month. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected])
FingerThief Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.30 19:43:00 - [68] Originally by: Tarkan Kador Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Well I don't really like the GTC for isk issue, but the people doing it ARE paying for their subscription because somewhere, somehow, along the line of sales, CCP is getting paid for the Gametime card by whoever is reselling it for isk here, so it really doesnt matter WHO uses it as long as the GTC was bought and not stolen somehow. The only ones who are paying for their subscriptions are people like me, and we pay for it in terms of a compromised game. The guy who bought the GTCs some time ago doesn't pay for it, because he never took up any service resources today. Nor does the person who buys the GTCs for ISK pay for it, because they never paid revenue to maintain and expand the finite service resources today. The ones who pay for it are the ones who are running around looking for a research slot, fighting lag, and trying to get petitions answered. Because not only are they paying this month, for service this month, they have to put up with people running four and five extra accounts demanding equal service for each at the level of someone who paid this month, but pay nothing this month for the privilege. Whatever was sold or not sold from CCP's store over the last three years shouldn't impact my experience this month, but it is. Because I pay for a month of service this month, and if the reason I'm experiencing late petitions, or full research slots, or memory leaks this month is because the ones who aren't paying this month are demanding monthly service in excess, then I'm not getting the service I should expect this month. What ?
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.01.30 19:56:00 - [69] Originally by: FingerThief What ? In short: I pay good money each month to be here, and have to put up with problems caused by those who don't pay. Simple enough? Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil ([email protected])
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.30 20:08:00 - [70] Originally by: FingerThief Originally by: Tarkan Kador Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Well I don't really like the GTC for isk issue, but the people doing it ARE paying for their subscription because somewhere, somehow, along the line of sales, CCP is getting paid for the Gametime card by whoever is reselling it for isk here, so it really doesnt matter WHO uses it as long as the GTC was bought and not stolen somehow. The only ones who are paying for their subscriptions are people like me, and we pay for it in terms of a compromised game. The guy who bought the GTCs some time ago doesn't pay for it, because he never took up any service resources today. Nor does the person who buys the GTCs for ISK pay for it, because they never paid revenue to maintain and expand the finite service resources today. The ones who pay for it are the ones who are running around looking for a research slot, fighting lag, and trying to get petitions answered. Because not only are they paying this month, for service this month, they have to put up with people running four and five extra accounts demanding equal service for each at the level of someone who paid this month, but pay nothing this month for the privilege. Whatever was sold or not sold from CCP's store over the last three years shouldn't impact my experience this month, but it is. Because I pay for a month of service this month, and if the reason I'm experiencing late petitions, or full research slots, or memory leaks this month is because the ones who aren't paying this month are demanding monthly service in excess, then I'm not getting the service I should expect this month. What ? I can afford a 15 year subscribtion to eve in GTC/isk terms. Happy? Signature removed as it fails to comply with the rules. Also, please think of the epileptics :) -Ivan K

Darnish Montrey	Posted - 2007.01.30 20:14:00 - [71] It seems funny that a game like EVE even thinks they can stop isk for cash. No matter how you try there will never be a way to stop those that want to get stuff from the game for cash. Bring in Vivox and you will see what I mean.
WhiskeyDP The Druids	Posted - 2007.01.30 21:58:00 - [72] i got a question i been wondering for a while. what happens if i buy gtc's for lets say 3-400b and extend my account(s) that would be equal to 300+ years gaming. what happens if they close down eve in lets say 10years. can i get a refund in rlm? ================== === eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game
QwaarJet Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.30 22:08:00 - [73] Quote: This will soon change. Unfortunately, I cannot go further into the forthcoming changes at this time. Please don't ditch GTC. I have health issues which prevent from earning much ISK without selling Game Time Cards. I know there a lot of whiners, but there are also loads of people who rely on them, not just me. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Agama Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.01.30 22:44:00 - [74] Edited by: Agama on 30/01/2007 22:42:36 Personally I cannot wait till the day they ban the whole Isk<->GTC's issue. The whole system is borked and is open to abuse. ie Alliances letting isk farmers run 0.0 complexes as long as the isk farming team gives the alliance a cut of the isk, knowing that the isk farmers are selling isk->GTC->cash. Its wrong wrong wrong. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Apollo Kreed Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:59:00 - [75] I think a lot of the anti-GTCers are missing a few key points. CCP is a business, the level of service they provide to us is related in proportion to the amount of profits they receive. If profits fall below a certain line service begins to fall. If profits stop all together Eve either gets sold to another company or simply goes off line. CCP has a decent player base, but hardly one I would call large. The player base is large enough to allow the game designers to keep the game growing and most likely to turn a reasonable profit. But it's certainly not large enough that losing 1% or even 2% of it's paying customers each month wouldn't be felt. GTC sales offer something to the people buying those GTCs that you can't get in most MMOs, a way to play an online game without having to have a CREDIT CARD or a BANK ACCOUNT. Face it, some people have terrible credit, debts, etc. Whatever the reason there are a number of people that simply don't have access to a way to purchase things online. GTC sales let those people play. This is still profit CCP sees each month because people with a way to purchase things online are the ones buying the codes. If GTC sales for isk becomes a thing of the past it will take a lot of players with it that have no means other then in game currency to play. As far as the morality behind it I couldn't care less when faced with the fact that CCP is a business, as well as a game I enjoy playing. If the
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:20:00 - [76] Edited by: KHEN on 31/01/2007 02:17:30 Well I'll never maintain as many active accounts than now if I can't pay the subscription fees with isks. I'm pretty sure that thousands of accounts will be immediately cancelled if ccp bans GTC sales. So I'll probably switch and try another MMO, and no, nobody will get my stuff (around 200 Bil isks worth) because that would be cheating, griefing, harming all these clever people who whined since so long about GTC sales. not so biggie at all regards
shakatak	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:48:00 - [77] Edited by: shakatak on 31/01/2007 02:49:25 u have 348563489563489 units of money and u need to spend 1 unit to get a navy raven . what's your call ? OFC NO !!!!! plan B. play eve for 5 month then u get a navy raven and die in a lag. it's insta quit the game. -1
Nezz Jaran	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:44:00 - [78] Edited by: Nezz Jaran on 31/01/2007 03:40:49 Originally by: Tarkan Kador I pay good money each month to be here, and have to put up with problems caused by those who don't pay. I pay good money each month to be here, and I also paid good money so that two other people can be here for three months. Also have a corp member who is ONLY rejoining Eve because he got a GTC for a present, since he can't afford to pay a the monthly fee. So, where EXACTLY is the harm in that? Edited to change goo money to good money. I didn't realize that I had change in my pod.
FuzzBuzz Caldari Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:56:00 - [79] im sure you can add more than 1 gtc a time :) may as well buy 4 3 monthers if you have the cash, you wont loose much, depending on the prices in a year if they are still allowed
Curzon Dax Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 05:37:00 - [80] Kieron mentioned change; here's an idea: Remember Sony-bay? Where Sony started two servers where you could sell / buy virtual goods? What's to say that we don't end up with an EVEbay that does the same? Players are GOING to find a way to buy virtual goods, regardless of its violation of EULAs. Capitalizing on it, and draining the profits that illegal third parties are making, by hosting that ability yourself isn't a bad idea. :) --------------------------------- Deadly Swarm Gah! Sig nerfed. Stay tuned!

Trotski II Rasta Tropical Club	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:08:00 - [81] I really hope they don¦t simply ban GTC for ISK. The moment i get tired, have little time, too much interference with real life with playing EVE instead of keep my two accounts running i will just liquidade all my assets and i won¦t let my hard earned billions vanish. At the moment people get more ISK buy selling GTC then by buying directly from sellers on ebay or e-game stores. That will just generate more macro and profissional farmers online. And i can see also massive amounts of isk being selled to them by people quiting the game. Now if you have some isk in your wallet you have no incentive to quit game even if you just log to change long time skills. If you are a tech2 tychoon with hundreads of billions and don¦t want/no time to play/can¦t keep paying subscription would you just give all your stuff away or let it vanish instead of converting it to real $$$? I WOULDN¦T. I ain¦t rich and i have a family to feed. These are my thoughts on the subject.
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:24:00 - [82] Edited by: KHEN on 31/01/2007 09:22:55 Originally by: Trotski II If you are a tech2 tychoon with hundreads of billions and don¦t want/no time to play/can¦t keep paying subscription would you just give all your stuff away or let it vanish instead of converting it to real $$$? I WOULDN¦T. I ain¦t rich and i have a family to feed. These are my thoughts on the subject. Your thoughts are against EULA. In game assets remain CCP property, you have no right on these. Isks worth peanuts. Even if you are not rich, you can be an honest man, and if you have a family that needs you so much, then passing your time in computer games and entertaining yourself might not be the best thing to do.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:17:00 - [83] All "chess" analogies are void because chess gameplay does not in any way compare with EVE gameplay. In chess, there is no equivalent to economy in eve, and there are no goods created within chess game, only destroyed. Maybe you can compare an EVE space battle with chess party, but the process of acquiring resources for such battle is not represented in chess game.
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:23:00 - [84] Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 31/01/2007 13:20:54 Originally by: Tarkan Kador Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Well I don't really like the GTC for isk issue, but the people doing it ARE paying for their subscription because somewhere, somehow, along the line of sales, CCP is getting paid for the Gametime card by whoever is reselling it for isk here, so it really doesnt matter WHO uses it as long as the GTC was bought and not stolen somehow. The only ones who are paying for their subscriptions are people like me, and we pay for it in terms of a compromised game. The guy who bought the GTCs some time ago doesn't pay for it, because he never took up any service resources today. Nor does the person who buys the GTCs for ISK pay for it, because they never paid revenue to maintain and expand the finite service resources today. The ones who pay for it are the ones who are running around looking for a research slot, fighting lag, and trying to get petitions answered. Because not only are they paying this month, for service this month, they have to put up with people running four and five extra accounts demanding equal service for each at the level of someone who paid this month, but pay nothing this month for the privilege. Whatever was sold or not sold from CCP's store over the last three years shouldn't impact my experience this month, but it is. Because I pay for a month of service this month, and if the reason I'm experiencing late petitions, or full research slots, or memory leaks this month is because the ones who aren't paying this month are demanding monthly service in excess, then I'm not getting the service I should expect this month. I think you missed my point. Let's say for example I pre-pay for EVE in 6-month increments. I pay like $12 USD / month instead of $15/month if I pay month-to-month. Now, I have "deprived" CCP of $6 * $3 = $18 so now i'm negatively affecting your gameplay somehow? I also don't pay them but 1x every 6 months, so because I paid them 5 months ago, I still play this month for no apparent charge. Yet, they still are required to provide me the same service. Do you really think all the GTC's were bought months and months ago? I suspect a ton of them are being bought every day to sell for this purpose. The point is, regardless of WHEN CCP got the money, at some point they DID get real MONEY in exchange for a time code. Now, just like a Gift Certificate, the value should not decrease until some expiration date usually years later. Just because you paid for something and don't use it immediately doesn't mean your right to service is any less valid. I'm playing devil's advocate here but I at least will not accuse GTC users of being owed less service from CCP then me, especially since they are paying MORE per month when you do the calculations than those of us who prepay in large chunks!
Removal Tool Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:52:00 - [85] The Chess analogy, or any other game without RMT, IS valid. It is a simple way to try to reach people that are too stupid or bereft of a sense of fair play. But then I never did understand why people would buy games and then use cheats to win it, thus cheating themselves
ChironV Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [86] Originally by: Removal Tool The Chess analogy, or any other game without RMT, IS valid. It is a simple way to try to reach people that are too stupid or bereft of a sense of fair play. But then I never did understand why people would buy games and then use cheats to win it, thus cheating themselves Bull. Lets say you're good at chess. I want to be good at it. You spend 10 hours a day to study and practice. I spend some money to have a chess master tutor me and help me improve for 4 hours a day. With your reasoning I have cheated because I didnt have to spend the exact same amount of time to become better at chess. Think of a better analogy. GTC for ISK serves a need. I would much prefer they kept it or improved it so the money goes wholly to CCP. I dont want to see the 3rd party ISK sellers rob more money from CCP's coffers. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
FuzzBuzz Caldari Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Tarkan Kador Originally by: FingerThief What ? In short: I pay good money each month to be here, and have to put up with problems caused by those who don't pay. Simple enough? foolish words did someone buy the gtc with real money?
Vladikov Orrico	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:14:00 - [88] An end to gtc sales would be a godsend. Best thing to happen to the game in a long time IMHO. Frankly I'd like to have people who buy/sell virtual goods shot on site and the cost of the bullet mailed to their families....but that's just me.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:31:00 - [89] Originally by: kieron It will be interesting to see the effect this policy enforcement (not change, it has been Ebay's policy for a very long time) will have on RMT vendors. Will it put all the RMT vendors out of business, or will this get rid of the 'Mom & Pop' RMT shops and push the buyers into doing business with the big sites? Probably somewhere in between. We can only do so much though. For RMT to completely stop, it will take the gaming community as a whole to stop purchasing items and currency for real cash. We will continue to do our part, enforce the EULA and deal with buyers and sellers as we find them. The MMOG community needs to do their part by not buying or selling in-game items, boycotting sites that sell items or RMT advertising, or link to those sites and simply take a stand. What the boss has said....Just think where did that 93.5 million trit come from? Dont buy from contracts or blind buy off the market. Instead hire a mining corp to get this for you, Probably save a couple of million in price.... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Live Eye	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:16:00 - [90] Edited by: Live Eye on 31/01/2007 17:25:35 First off, virtual goods is yet another moronic term. It's nothing but the selling of access to encoded flags. Second of all, how the hell could they tax this? You can advertize these however you want and when it comes to the sale you list it as "Barney Face Sticker, comes with a free 40m SP EVE character". There are no laws being broken here, only game policies so let the games deal with it and keep the law the f*ck out of it... Live Eye



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