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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
43
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Posted - 2016.02.01 19:12:18 -
[541] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Are you comparing RL with Eve
Actually, I'm mocking those who do so incorrectly. The rest of your little rant only makes your position weaker, since Concord magically comes without being called, something that really shouldn't be the case.
It was not a rant. You Specify a "real world" example, and then now that I expand on YOUR real world example in a light that you don't like, so you start to back track.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16119
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Posted - 2016.02.01 19:13:50 -
[542] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
It was not a rant.
It very much was, and you made yourself look foolish.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
43
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Posted - 2016.02.01 19:21:31 -
[543] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:Are you comparing RL with Eve... Tist tist, but ok.. lets play,...
Must admit, I really can't see the benefit in this sort of thing when suggesting change. At the end of all the discussion, the only people that can implement mechanics changes are CCP and in order to do it, they'll need to be pursuaded by the quality of the arguments. What's going to be more convincing: A well structured argument, supported by evidence, where the suggestions are supported by the data? Or A thread full of mud slinging and personal attacks?
the problem is that this is very heavy with opinions. This post has grown with people adding more evidence. CCP has access to logs that can confirm or deny what is being said. I don't have access to those logs.
As far as personal attacks, I'm not sure what you mean. I saw one person's post removed because of it. Mug slinging, it apparently is heated topic, with differences of opinion. Which is ok. you don't need to buy a permit to state your opinion. ;).
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44135
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Posted - 2016.02.01 19:59:37 -
[544] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence.
What evidence?
None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2548
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 20:42:59 -
[545] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all.
The "issue" is that albeit the horse is long gone, we still made a 27 pages thread about it... |
KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
44
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:44:12 -
[546] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all.
You my friend need to start trolling somewhere else with a comment at this point of the discussion. This problem exists and have been perceived by many people. Again CCP can validate our claims. Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16120
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:52:40 -
[547] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:This problem exists and have been perceived by many people.
The only problem here is with your perception.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1765
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Posted - 2016.02.01 20:57:33 -
[548] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all. You my friend need to start trolling somewhere else with a comment at this point of the discussion. This problem exists and have been perceived by many people. Again CCP can validate our claims. Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen.
I am pretty sure that freighters being bumped and then subsequently exploding is less accurately described as a "problem" and more accurately as "******* awesome".
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44139
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:05:49 -
[549] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all. You my friend need to start trolling somewhere else with a comment at this point of the discussion. This problem exists and have been perceived by many people. Again CCP can validate our claims. Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen.
I'm not a troll and have posted evidence in this thread and asked for evidence many times over, only for those requests to be ignored.
If you somehow had an emotional response to a request for evidence, then sorry for that. Not my intent.
I just want to see the evidence. Where is it? You've claimed its been posted, yet I haven't seen any. Can you link it as I must have missed it, which is my bad if so?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
21115
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:15:29 -
[550] - Quote
I have also asked questions left unanswered. I have even asked Kick a question, in order to gain information. But it was seemingly ignored.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
44
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:25:58 -
[551] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This problem exists and have been perceived by many people.
The only problem here is with your perception.
Wrong my friend. I do have a long boring video that I will be happy to share with CCP. But nice try.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16127
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:27:39 -
[552] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This problem exists and have been perceived by many people.
The only problem here is with your perception. Wrong my friend. I do have a long boring video that I will be happy to share with CCP. But nice try.
Go right ahead. If you aren't ignored or laughed at, I suspect their answer will be something along the lines of:
"What was he doing the whole time, his nails? Why didn't he try to get away?"
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4565
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:28:38 -
[553] - Quote
Seems to me there is a simple solution to being bumped for hours and hours. If you have screwed up and you are getting bumped (and if you are getting bumped, spare meGǪyou really screwed up) the solution has been in the game all along. Log off. The logic here should be obvious:
Prob(Getting Agressed by a Noob Ship|Going to be bumped for hours) << 1.
Or more intuitively, if the gankers are so ill prepared as to be bumping a freighter for hours on end, then it is highly unlikely they have a noob ship on standby to aggress the hapless freighter. Even if they did, and they are going to bump for 5 hours, theyGÇÖd better have 20 or so noob ships ready to go and probably more than one character to do it given the 15 minute criminal timer which is as long as the PvP timer.
Oh, and just out of curiosityGǪhas anyone ever seen a Red Frog pilot in one of these threads? Of course, maybe Red Frog likes ganking as it gives them more of a viable market.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
44
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:28:40 -
[554] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I have also asked questions that are left unanswered. I have even asked Kick a question, in order to gain information. But it was seemingly ignored.
I apologize if I missed your comment. There are many here. I'll take a look more fully later tonight. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3050
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:33:15 -
[555] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Your examples.. are great! like you said.. Bubbled in Null, or trapped in a WH. Both of those environments are very hostile. If you want to go extort people, head there. There, you should have a fleet of people to escort a Freighter. Makes 100%. In HS, neither of those things apply. So the mechanics of being held hostage by someone in highsec should not happen.
Where does it say it shouldn't apply in hisec? Where does it say you shouldn't have a fleet escort you in hi sec?
Hi sec is safer, but not completely safe. And thats why its more difficult, but not impossible to do it in hi-sec. This is eve 101 ffs.
And I can still hold someone hostage with a point with a wardec or in a duel.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
21116
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:34:24 -
[556] - Quote
I seem to recall a thread in GD, that was about a bumping that took place over quite some time. Wasn't the result 'working as intended'?
Wasn't there also a video involved?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
21118
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:36:22 -
[557] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Mag's wrote:I have also asked questions that are left unanswered. I have even asked Kick a question, in order to gain information. But it was seemingly ignored. I apologize if I missed your comment. There are many here. I'll take a look more fully later tonight. No worries.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1770
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:38:08 -
[558] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Your examples.. are great! like you said.. Bubbled in Null, or trapped in a WH. Both of those environments are very hostile. If you want to go extort people, head there. There, you should have a fleet of people to escort a Freighter. Makes 100%. In HS, neither of those things apply. So the mechanics of being held hostage by someone in highsec should not happen.
Where does it say it shouldn't apply in hisec?
Look, that's not really important, and frankly, making an F&I post that isn't predominantly supported by wholly made up assertions is an onerous chore and you can't really expect anyone to do that.
Facts are nice when they're available, and in agreement with the person complaining, but when that's not the case, they have to be ignored in favor of the OP's feelings.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Iain Cariaba
2477
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 21:46:55 -
[559] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:...it gives them more of a viable market.
As a freighter pilot who uses every single tool available to keep myself from getting ganked, that's one of the reasons I like ganking.
When I was mining in highsec, many years ago, I enjoyed warping out of a belt when gankers showed up and finding free ore in the wreck of the AFKers when the gankers left.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
45
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:48:48 -
[560] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Your examples.. are great! like you said.. Bubbled in Null, or trapped in a WH. Both of those environments are very hostile. If you want to go extort people, head there. There, you should have a fleet of people to escort a Freighter. Makes 100%. In HS, neither of those things apply. So the mechanics of being held hostage by someone in highsec should not happen.
Where does it say it shouldn't apply in hisec? Where does it say you shouldn't have a fleet escort you in hi sec? Hi sec is safer, but not completely safe. And thats why its more difficult, but not impossible to do it in hi-sec. This is eve 101 ffs. And I can still hold someone hostage with a point with a wardec or in a duel.
Yes you can with a war dec., that is a war, that's ok.
Like I said before, it should not be 100% safe. I completely agree. Someone that has a Webber that does not get bumped should have less risk then someone flying solo. The solo pilot if bumped, could be ganked but should not be held in limbo. Gank him in 10-15 minutes, or move on. Maybe the person who gets "saved" By the safety net of bumping has to pay a fee, go through a freighter hauling guide tutorial. And every day the safety net is used the cost keeps going up. Till it no longer in place??? Maybe it is used as a temporary safety net?
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
45
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:54:58 -
[561] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I seem to recall a thread in GD, that was about a bumping that took place over quite some time. Wasn't the result 'working as intended'?
Wasn't there also a video involved?
I am not sure, if you find it post it here. I would like to see it. |
KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
45
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 22:12:44 -
[562] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all. You my friend need to start trolling somewhere else with a comment at this point of the discussion. This problem exists and have been perceived by many people. Again CCP can validate our claims. Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen. I'm not a troll and have posted evidence in this thread and asked for evidence many times over, only for those requests to be ignored. If you somehow had an emotional response to a request for evidence, then sorry for that. Not my intent. I just want to see the evidence. Where is it? You've claimed its been posted, yet I haven't seen any. Can you link it as I must have missed it, which is my bad if so?
First. Not emotional. It was just funny that at page 30ish, you then want to see evidence. You never disagreed that it happens up to now, but now all of a sudden you want it. If you saw the posts, you would have seen other people mentioned similar aspects. As for direct proof. I again do have a video that I will be happy to share with CCP. I bet CCP could come up with more direct stats. I have not recorded the mass bumps before because certain mechanics were not as abused as of more lately, but might have to record more. That is a great idea! |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1771
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 22:19:48 -
[563] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
You never disagreed that it happens up to now, but now all of a sudden you want it.
He didn't ask for evidence that something happens. He asked for evidence of a problem.
Not actually the same thing, generally speaking. As previously stated, that it happens is, in fact, ******* awesome, and not a problem.
Now, you could suggest that that's just my opinion, and I'll wholeheartedly agree! But that is a little bit problematic when your entire position is contingent on your opinions being accepted as if they were facts.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3052
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 23:40:00 -
[564] - Quote
The point of my post was not that I expect him to dig up what we all know doesn't exist but actually realise that, outside of noob systems, there is no behaviour that is ok in one area of space but not others. There are a specific list of modules, ships etc but not player behaviour/tactics.
@kickass
Why is holding someone indefinitely with a point in a wardec ok, but bumping them is bad?
They both do the same thing in the same area of space, with similar options for the one being held.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16128
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 23:46:25 -
[565] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Why is holding someone indefinitely with a point in a wardec ok, but bumping them is bad?
They both do the same thing in the same area of space, with similar options for the one being held.
Oh, oh! I know the answer!
It's because both are fine, and in both situations if you ask the GMs about it, they will tell you to just self destruct and get on with your life.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Mag's
Rabble Inc.
Rabble Alliance
21119
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Posted - 2016.02.01 23:57:42 -
[566] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Mag's wrote:I seem to recall a thread in GD, that was about a bumping that took place over quite some time. Wasn't the result 'working as intended'?
Wasn't there also a video involved? I am not sure, if you find it post it here. I would like to see it. Here
The eve-search.com version will fill in the gaps. On my phone atm so it's a bit of a mare.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44150
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 00:21:27 -
[567] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:This post has grown with people adding more evidence. What evidence? None has been posted showing that an issue exists at all. You my friend need to start trolling somewhere else with a comment at this point of the discussion. This problem exists and have been perceived by many people. Again CCP can validate our claims. Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen. I'm not a troll and have posted evidence in this thread and asked for evidence many times over, only for those requests to be ignored. If you somehow had an emotional response to a request for evidence, then sorry for that. Not my intent. I just want to see the evidence. Where is it? You've claimed its been posted, yet I haven't seen any. Can you link it as I must have missed it, which is my bad if so? First. Not emotional. It was just funny that at page 30ish, you then want to see evidence. You never disagreed that it happens up to now, but now all of a sudden you want it. If you saw the posts, you would have seen other people mentioned similar aspects. As for direct proof. I again do have a video that I will be happy to share with CCP. I bet CCP could come up with more direct stats. I have not recorded the mass bumps before because certain mechanics were not as abused as of more lately, but might have to record more. That is a great idea!
What?
I've asked for evidence that it's an issue all through this thread.
If you weren't emotional, then how was my post a troll? Just asking for the evidence that this is an issue that needs to be changed.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
44153
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 01:04:55 -
[568] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen.
Ok, so since evidence that this problem exists to the extent that it needs bumping mechanics changed and looting mechanics changed as a result, I swang by Uedama (with my hauling alt) as you suggested.
This is just the start of a study and I'll continue it to collect as much data as needed to determine one way or the other whether bumping is a problem. The only evidence I have been able to find (which is posted in this thread) suggests it isn't a problem.
I'll upload the raw screen capture video and post a link, but in the meantime here's a screenshot to support the following data (but anyone will be able to verify it by watching the video back if they want):
http://puu.sh/mSumM/1e5bbf1d66.jpg
So I sat on the Sivala gate in Uedama for 2 hours and simply recorded the movement of hauling ships (including industrials, freighters, jump freighters, Orca and Bowhead) through the gate.
Total hauler movement: 221 jumps
No. of bumps: 0
Total ships AFK on the gate for between 1 min - 12 min: 3
Total ships on autopilot: 16
Total number of times webs were used to web into warp: 0
Breakdown by ship:
Charon: 10 (1 AFK for 12 minutes on the gate, 1 autopiloting0
Bowhead: 4
Obelisk: 6 (I autopiloting)
Orca: 6
Providence: 3 (1 autopiloting)
Fenrir: 4
T2 and T1 industrials: the remainer
In the video, I'll include the full breakdown at the end.
A very limited set of data and I'll increase the dataset significantly before making any conclusions.
I'll do another 2 hours later today.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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KickAss Tivianne
Galactic Special Operations Division
Silent Infinity
45
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Posted - 2016.02.02 01:12:54 -
[569] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:Or just swing by Uedama and watch, it really would not be hard to see it happen. Ok, so since evidence that this problem exists to the extent that it needs bumping mechanics changed and looting mechanics changed as a result, I swang by Uedama (with my hauling alt) as you suggested. This is just the start of a study and I'll continue it to collect as much data as needed to determine one way or the other whether bumping is a problem. The only evidence I have been able to find (which is posted in this thread) suggests it isn't a problem. I'll upload the raw screen capture video and post a link, but in the meantime here's a screenshot to support the following data (but anyone will be able to verify it by watching the video back if they want): http://puu.sh/mSumM/1e5bbf1d66.jpg
So I sat on the Sivala gate in Uedama for 2 hours and simply recorded the movement of hauling ships (including industrials, freighters, jump freighters, Orca and Bowhead) through the gate. Total movement: 221 jumps No. of bumps: 0 Total ships AFK on the gate for between 1 min - 12 min: 3 Total ships on autopilot: 16 Total number of times webs were used to web into warp: 0 Breakdown by ship: Charon: 10 (1 AFK for 12 minutes on the gate, 1 autopiloting0 Bowhead: 4 Obelisk: 6 (I autopiloting) Orca: 6 Providence: 3 (1 autopiloting) Fenrir: 4 T2 and T1 industrials: the remainer In the video, I'll include the full breakdown at the end. A very limited set of data and I'll increase the dataset significantly before making any conclusions. I'll do another 2 hours later today.
I appreciate the attempt. This is what makes it a Ganker's game. They control the speed of the game.. target, and when to do it. You can spend a day there, and unless you are fed intel you might not see anything. Even if you are fed intel it could be a slow day, or week. People who have been doing this for a year or so know. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16130
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 01:22:44 -
[570] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
I appreciate the attempt. This is what makes it a Ganker's game. They control the speed of the game.. target, and when to do it. You can spend a day there, and unless you are fed intel you might not see anything. Even if you are fed intel it could be a slow day, or week. People who have been doing this for a year or so know.
So now you basically just hate player freedom.
Because you're crying that the people who decide to take the initiative... get the initiative.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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