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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16032
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:03:08 -
[361] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
So now you're a liar again.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:04:34 -
[362] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Mag's wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Seems there's still no clear reason why my Freighter pilot deserves special treatment via protection from bumping. Seeing as my freighter pilot has been in far less risk than Mag's ever has, I tend to agree. Many trips, never a loss. So going by the risk table used by the AG crowd, shouldn't webbing and hauling get nerfed? Wasn't hauling nerfed when freighters got low slots (choice - tank vs capacity)? As for webbing, since it is not a 100% counter to bumping in reality I'd have nothing against its removal (just do make a viable proposal for that). That nerf was requested by your side and it was in fact the gankers that warned pilots that it would result in a nerf. Hardly something that can be laid at our feet now is it? What they wanted was fittings to be safer, plus the same ship. What they got was a ship that didn't perform as well as before. Since nothing should be 100%, I don't see your point. But webbing does remove the chance of being bumped to almost as near to that, as not worth arguing over. Plus I'm not the one wanting change here. I'm merely pointing out the irony, of using the risk argument. Just as it's use regarding bumping. If it's so risk free, then create risk or use that so called risk free mechanic yourself.
And all I'm trying to discuss is how silly bumping as an aggression free warp disruption can be in hisec + the rather un-intuitive nature of DST looting. Nothing more, nothing less. |
Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21061
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:05:58 -
[363] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: What exactly has Kaarous made up?
He made up that I publicly supported RL threats. He claimed that I made up recycled alts thingy. He stated quite clearly that he doesn't believe anything someone from other groups claims. What else you need drawn? Wut? LInks por favor? Here's the death threats part https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6306176#post6306176 (EDIT: link doesn't work properly, go to the end of the page and you'll see the post). The rest is in past two-three pages (and not as serious as this crap is) so find it yourself. You need to fix your link. That's one of a quote from Black Pedro.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44062
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Posted - 2016.01.31 02:07:34 -
[364] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Wasn't hauling nerfed when freighters got low slots (choice - tank vs capacity)? How is choice a nerf?
The base EHP was increased and with full cargo expanders the cargo capacity greater than before (21-25% larger for freighters and 1-2% for Jump Freighters)?
How is more EHP and ability to fit tank or gain greater cargo in anyway a nerf?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345280&_ga=1.16959609.1743750090.1442478155
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Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21061
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:10:08 -
[365] - Quote
Well because many wanted the same original stats, but with fittings. They were quite amazed and upset when this didn't happen, therefore think of it as a nerf. But anyone with Eve knowledge will know that's not how it works.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:12:18 -
[366] - Quote
And indeed I've confused Kaarous and Black Pedro in terms of rl threat thing quote, my aplogize for that part (the rest stands). It's quite late here |
Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21061
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:12:31 -
[367] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And all I'm trying to discuss is how silly bumping as an aggression free warp disruption can be in hisec + the rather un-intuitive nature of DST looting. Nothing more, nothing less. And if there were no options to avoid and counter it, I would agree. But seeing as it's been shown in this thread and in game options do exist, I don't see your point.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16034
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:18:50 -
[368] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And indeed I've confused Kaarous and Black Pedro in terms of rl threat thing quote, my aplogize for that part (the rest stands). It's quite late here
"the rest stands"?
What rest?
The part where you claimed that alts were being recycled for ganking, then abjectly failed to prove anything of the sort?
Or the part where you claim that I'm some kind of xenophobe, when in fact I've already repeatedly told you that I specifically have a problem with you and your little group?
So please, tell me. What "rest" are you referring to? Or are you too tired to think that one through either?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:19:36 -
[369] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And all I'm trying to discuss is how silly bumping as an aggression free warp disruption can be in hisec + the rather un-intuitive nature of DST looting. Nothing more, nothing less. And if there were no options to avoid and counter it, I would agree. But seeing as it's been shown in this thread and in game options do exist, I don't see your point.
Well, it's not just my point. In terms of options - there really are few and some of them are problematic to say at least (ganking the bumper for example), however I think and I bet you'd find quite a few people agreeing that while bumping an afk pilot might be ok in a cosmic-justice sense, ability to permabump an active freighter pilot is a bit too much. Providing an option for the freighter pilot to (through active game-play by that player) get away would make sense. The problem is the fact that once first bump lands (and, as we've established so far - that can happen regardless of having a webber alt) when faced with a good bumper you can't get out legally and the bumper has no consequences. I don't understand how that fact is so logical or acceptable. |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:28:11 -
[370] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And indeed I've confused Kaarous and Black Pedro in terms of rl threat thing quote, my aplogize for that part (the rest stands). It's quite late here "the rest stands"? What rest? The part where you claimed that alts were being recycled for ganking, then abjectly failed to prove anything of the sort? Or the part where you claim that I'm some kind of xenophobe, when in fact I've already repeatedly told you that I specifically have a problem with you and your little group? So please, tell me. What "rest" are you referring to? Or are you too tired to think that one through either?
Look, I mixed you up with Pedro on threats thing and apologized for it.
In order to illustrate my point, I've linked you one example of a char being used for freighter ganks which has been recycled. There have been more, I will certainly not look for them now and if you chose not to believe, that's fine by me.
If you automatically reject any argument by individuals solely due to them belonging to a certain group (even if it is anti-gankers) then yes, you are biased (don't think what you do qualifies as xenophobia though). |
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17222
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Posted - 2016.01.31 02:32:11 -
[371] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And all I'm trying to discuss is how silly bumping as an aggression free warp disruption can be in hisec + the rather un-intuitive nature of DST looting. Nothing more, nothing less. And if there were no options to avoid and counter it, I would agree. But seeing as it's been shown in this thread and in game options do exist, I don't see your point. Well, it's not just my point. In terms of options - there really are few and some of them are problematic to say at least (ganking the bumper for example), however I think and I bet you'd find quite a few people agreeing that while bumping an afk pilot might be ok in a cosmic-justice sense, ability to permabump an active freighter pilot is a bit too much. Providing an option for the freighter pilot to (through active game-play by that player) get away would make sense. The problem is the fact that once first bump lands (and, as we've established so far - that can happen regardless of having a webber alt) when faced with a good bumper you can't get out legally and the bumper has no consequences. I don't understand how that fact is so logical or acceptable.
Because even when bumped you can get out of it very easily either by warping to a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter or by counter bumping the bumpers.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16034
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:35:49 -
[372] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Look, I mixed you up with Pedro on threats thing and apologized for it.
From my perspective, you lied, got caught on it, and are backpedaling.
Anyone else care to weigh in?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Mag's
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
21066
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:36:11 -
[373] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Mag's wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:And all I'm trying to discuss is how silly bumping as an aggression free warp disruption can be in hisec + the rather un-intuitive nature of DST looting. Nothing more, nothing less. And if there were no options to avoid and counter it, I would agree. But seeing as it's been shown in this thread and in game options do exist, I don't see your point. Well, it's not just my point. In terms of options - there really are few and some of them are problematic to say at least (ganking the bumper for example), however I think and I bet you'd find quite a few people agreeing that while bumping an afk pilot might be ok in a cosmic-justice sense, ability to permabump an active freighter pilot is a bit too much. Providing an option for the freighter pilot to (through active game-play by that player) get away would make sense. The problem is the fact that once first bump lands (and, as we've established so far - that can happen regardless of having a webber alt) when faced with a good bumper you can't get out legally and the bumper has no consequences. I don't understand how that fact is so logical or acceptable. I still don't see your point. Not because I'm being awkward, but because it relies upon such a narrow set of circumstances. All in an attempt to justify a change.
Let me explain. You say we've established one can still be bumped, even when webbed. I say so what? Nothing should be 100%, nothing. But just how often does this happen? Truthfully now, I would say extremely rarely. So avoidance with webbs is an rather good option to have. Whether it's too good, is by the by.
So then we arrive at someone being bumped. So seeing how webbing is very good at avoiding this, when a pilots ends up being bumped, just how easy should it be to escape? You see we've already had the easy part, now it's the hard part. But they can escape, as bumping is again not 100%. You can bump the bumper, kill the bumper, always use a jump freighter, or have a friend in a fast small ship try and position himself in the direction of the bump. Easy? No, it requires effort. Doable? Yes, with effort.
I would also say balanced. Whether you like it or not, to change something that's easily avoidable and also escapable after, (even if that escape takes some effort and isn't guaranteed) isn't justifiable. Especially when those changes may impact the game, in so many other negative ways.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44064
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:41:23 -
[374] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:The problem is the fact that once first bump lands (and, as we've established so far - that can happen regardless of having a webber alt) when faced with a good bumper you can't get out legally and the bumper has no consequences. I don't understand how that fact is so logical or acceptable. It's difficult to accept for the simple reason that no where has this been shown to be a problem.
Freighter and even more JF pilots have options to avoid being bumped in the first place. That alone reduces the risk of being bumped to a level much lower than other risks in the game.
So if someone is bumped, either because they failed to protect themselves (their fault), or had something occour out of their control (eg. disconnect), then bad luck to them in both cases.
Disconnects and lag happen to everyone, so it's just an unfortunate and no different for a freighter than anyone else. Just bad luck that doesn't favour one over the other (since a bumping Mach could also disconnect).
Failure to protect your own assets is no one's fault except for the Freighter/JF pilot and why should they gain special treatment for being dumb?
Why, if someone takes the right precautions is any change necessary at all. The risk of loss is extremely low that the idea it is a problem seems strange.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:52:28 -
[375] - Quote
Because even when bumped you can get out of it very easily either by warping to a fast ship out in front of the bumped freighter or by counter bumping the bumpers.[/quote]
Well, I've actually done these things so:
- warping to a fast ship only works if the bumper pays no attention to what's going on and does not change his bump vector. We've had fleets with 3-4 people in fast ships trying to provide warpins and more often then not it would not work. - bumping the bumper is very hard and unreliable. you might land one hit but he recovers from it quickly and then gets another bump on freighter.
Other things I've participated in: - suicide webbing the bumper in order to provide window for the freighter - repper fleets - bumping the freighter into warp (using machariel) - bumping the freighter as the gank fleet lands - alphaing gankers using arty loki, cane and/or tornado - haven't participated in the gank but have assisted with ganking a bumper - popping the loot - ganking the scanner alts - stealing loot
maybe some other stuff I can't think of right now.
After all I can tell that atm the game is skewed towards gankers by a large margin precisely thanks to bumping which provides choice of timing, ability for lazy ping-based reactions and the ability to avoid any opposition. I can see why big ganking groups are opposing the potential chages of bumping but in reality it would not make ganking impossible just more pro-active for both sides. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16035
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 02:55:59 -
[376] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: After all I can tell that atm the game is skewed towards gankers by a large margin precisely thanks to bumping which provides choice of timing, ability for lazy ping-based reactions and the ability to avoid any opposition. I can see why big ganking groups are opposing the potential chages of bumping but in reality it would not make ganking impossible just more pro-active for both sides.
Nevermind the "if anti ganking failed, then it must be broken" fallacy.
Contrast this little rant to the "It would not nerf ganking" emphatic that he's been peddling in the thread for page after page.
Carebears always lie.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:02:02 -
[377] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I would also say balanced. Whether you like it or not, to change something that's easily avoidable and also escapable after, (even if that escape takes some effort and isn't guaranteed) isn't justifiable. Especially when those changes may impact the game, in so many other negative ways. Well, I would have said that it was balanced before I joined AG and participated in their efforts to prevent ganks. Then you see the other side and the fact that it really is far from it (I've tried providing short explanation why above, long ones can be found in other threads where we discussed this topic). I don't think that bumping should be removed from the game or radically changed (due to the potential impact you mention yourself) but providing some options for active gameplay counter to bumping by the freighter pilot would make sense imho. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44065
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:09:16 -
[378] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Well, I've actually done these things so:
- warping to a fast ship only works if the bumper pays no attention to what's going on and does not change his bump vector. We've had fleets with 3-4 people in fast ships trying to provide warpins and more often then not it would not work. - bumping the bumper is very hard and unreliable. you might land one hit but he recovers from it quickly and then gets another bump on freighter.
Other things I've participated in: - suicide webbing the bumper in order to provide window for the freighter - repper fleets - bumping the freighter into warp (using machariel) - bumping the freighter as the gank fleet lands - alphaing gankers using arty loki, cane and/or tornado - haven't participated in the gank but have assisted with ganking a bumper - popping the loot - ganking the scanner alts - stealing loot
maybe some other stuff I can't think of right now.
After all I can tell that atm the game is skewed towards gankers by a large margin precisely thanks to bumping which provides choice of timing, ability for lazy ping-based reactions and the ability to avoid any opposition. I can see why big ganking groups are opposing the potential chages of bumping but in reality it would not make ganking impossible just more pro-active for both sides. On my Freighter/JF/other hauling alt, I've never had to do any of them.
Even with my crappy ping from Australia, I've never been bumped, despite jumping into systems with Machs sitting on gate. That's all due to the simple use of one webbing alt.
So having made thousands of jumps in highsec in a Freighter and JF (plus other hauling ships), the risk of being bumped in the first place seems extremely low if you are paying attention.
Of course, my experience is only the experience of one person, so it could be argued that my experience is not the normal. So as always, I've looked for evidence to validate the claims and the best data comes from RFF that I posted earlier in the thread.
60-80 pilots on continuously, 100-150 different pilots online during a week, 7500 jumps in highsec every single day on average (2014 figures) for a total of 2.8 million jumps in highsec in the year. For 233,221 completed contracts at an average of 12 jumps in highsec per contract, there was only 245 failed contracts (taking in not only ganks, but also time failures where the customer then failed the contract and kept the collateral as well as thefts).
Evidence that bumping is a problem when people actually manage their risk just seems totally missing.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16036
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:13:33 -
[379] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Well, I would have said that it was balanced before I joined AG and participated in their efforts to prevent ganks.
I dunno if you've noticed this yet, but considering you still willingly call yourself one of them I'm imagining you haven't...
But they suck. Really, really hard. Few suck harder. Using them as your example only proves that "mad cause bad" is in full effect here.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:14:14 -
[380] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Contrast this little rant to the "It would not nerf ganking" emphatic that he's been peddling in the thread for page after page.
It would not nerf ganking.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17224
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Posted - 2016.01.31 03:16:47 -
[381] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Well, I've actually done these things so:
- warping to a fast ship only works if the bumper pays no attention to what's going on and does not change his bump vector. We've had fleets with 3-4 people in fast ships trying to provide warpins and more often then not it would not work. - bumping the bumper is very hard and unreliable. you might land one hit but he recovers from it quickly and then gets another bump on freighter.
You have done none of these things. How can I tell?
Because as a battleship pilot I know full well how easy it is for a single cruiser to utterly mess up bumping. Toss 5 cruisers at a battleship and it will never get anywhere near the freighter. Equally you have never tried to get a frigate out in front of a bumped ship, you likely never even knew of this tactic until it was pointed out to you in this thread. You simply won't notice a ship pulling this move on a very busy gate such as Uedama before its done.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16036
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:18:05 -
[382] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Contrast this little rant to the "It would not nerf ganking" emphatic that he's been peddling in the thread for page after page.
It would not nerf ganking.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:After all I can tell that atm the game is skewed towards gankers by a large margin precisely thanks to bumping
Lie again, I mean try again.
Your intent is crystal clear, no matter how much you try to smokescreen.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44066
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:19:53 -
[383] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Contrast this little rant to the "It would not nerf ganking" emphatic that he's been peddling in the thread for page after page.
It would not nerf ganking. Really?
Would ganking be easier, harder or no effect afterwards?
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Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:24:29 -
[384] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You have done none of these things. How can I tell?
... you have never tried to get a frigate out in front of a bumped ship, you likely never even knew of this tactic until it was pointed out to you in this thread...
You simply won't notice a ship pulling this move on a very busy gate such as Uedama before its done.
Ok, I give up. |
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bunnyhopping days
141
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:26:53 -
[385] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Contrast this little rant to the "It would not nerf ganking" emphatic that he's been peddling in the thread for page after page.
It would not nerf ganking. Really? Would ganking be easier, harder or no effect afterwards?
Depends on your definition of a gank. I'd say that keeping target in place would be harder but ganking it would pretty much stay the same. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16036
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Posted - 2016.01.31 03:28:36 -
[386] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Depends on your definition of a gank.
It's like we're talking to ******* Bill Clinton here.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44068
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:31:45 -
[387] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Depends on your definition of a gank. I'd say that keeping target in place would be harder but ganking it would pretty much stay the same. So the addition of sentry guns into the equation of how many gank ships are required doesn't mean a change in the requirements to achieve a gank?
More ships to achieve a gank wouldn't be a nerf, but freighters were nerfed when they were given more base EHP and the ability to choose even more tank or up to 25% more capacity?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17225
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:33:07 -
[388] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:baltec1 wrote: You have done none of these things. How can I tell?
... you have never tried to get a frigate out in front of a bumped ship, you likely never even knew of this tactic until it was pointed out to you in this thread...
You simply won't notice a ship pulling this move on a very busy gate such as Uedama before its done.
Ok, I give up.
A raptor will cover that distance in 21 seconds, In order to stop it you have to first notice a frigate is working with the freighter turn around the MWDing battleships, manover them into a new position and then have them pull off a run. You cannot reposition MWDing Battleships in 21 seconds.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4514
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 03:37:34 -
[389] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: What exactly has Kaarous made up?
He made up that I publicly supported RL threats. He claimed that I made up recycled alts thingy. He stated quite clearly that he doesn't believe anything someone from other groups claims. What else you need drawn? Wut? LInks por favor? Here's the death threats part https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6306176#post6306176 (EDIT2: Ok, link works now) The rest is in past two-three pages (and not as serious as this crap is) so find it yourself.
Sooo...you link a post by you quoting Black Pedro, who is usually a careful and temperate poster....and that is your evidence.
How about you STFU, STFD and failing that GTFO?
I know you'll come back with something snarky because that is just the type of POS poster you are. Whatever. Block whomever you want, I wont block you as I like seeing how the completely intellectually bankrupt post.
BTW, WTF is the death threat there? I mean a death threat! That is some serious ****, and you point to a post by you quoting Black Pedro...were you making a death threat? Should we report you and petition you? Or what?
Please clarify? Were you drunk when you posted that?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4514
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Posted - 2016.01.31 03:42:39 -
[390] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote: Depends on your definition of a gank.
It's like we're talking to ******* Bill Clinton here.
Yes, but what exactly is 'is' in this context. Is ganking, 'is' gankimg or 'is' ganking? There is a world of difference you know?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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