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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
13591
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Posted - 2016.02.12 13:52:47 -
[91] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Archangel Raphael wrote:i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs.
tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer,
when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase.
for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve.
the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing.
Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great.
The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion.
having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve,
you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve.
True, when I was a noob I remember being in awe everytime I saw a Battleship and was completely flabbergasted at the sight of a Marauder. These experiences is what kept me motivated with vigilant training so that I too can fly those space wonders and now that experience is lost. The new crop of players that are buying their way into Eve won't ever experience that feeling of wanting to catch up and won't be as dedicated to Eve as the players who made the journey the old traditional Eve way.
Exactly so. As CCP makes EVE 'easier and more accessible' (and SP trading is an example, it streamlines something that was a more difficult process in the Character Bazaar) they have inadvertently killed many of the things that made the eve experience a valuable way to pass time.
Like all the pop ups and warnings and the in-game mission guiding system that keep players from making mistakes. Those mistakes taught us something, like "ok, don't jump into a low sec system with a hauler full of mission objectives", the minor amount of pain from those mistakes made us stronger players.
In this case, CCP is killing the value of spending time. Sure, we occasionally got a 'whale' type who would come in, brave the Char Bazaar and buy character and a bunch of isk and end up being an 'ALOD' on some website. But very few people did that, where as now many many more people have access to that functionality.
The most likely outcome is that it will accelerate the rate in which new players leave as they find the game they spent a couple hundred bucks on to 'catch up' has nothing to catch up to and is basically devoid of content (in the sense they, as regular mmo players expect it to). |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
187
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Posted - 2016.02.12 13:58:23 -
[92] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Archangel Raphael wrote:i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs.
tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer,
when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase.
for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve.
the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing.
Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great.
The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion.
having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve,
you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve.
True, when I was a noob I remember being in awe everytime I saw a Battleship and was completely flabbergasted at the sight of a Marauder. These experiences is what kept me motivated with vigilant training so that I too can fly those space wonders and now that experience is lost. The new crop of players that are buying their way into Eve won't ever experience that feeling of wanting to catch up and won't be as dedicated to Eve as the players who made the journey the old traditional Eve way. Exactly so. As CCP makes EVE 'easier and more accessible' (and SP trading is an example, it streamlines something that was a more difficult process in the Character Bazaar) they have inadvertently killed many of the things that made the eve experience a valuable way to pass time. Like all the pop ups and warnings and the in-game mission guiding system that keep players from making mistakes. Those mistakes taught us something, like "ok, don't jump into a low sec system with a hauler full of mission objectives", the minor amount of pain from those mistakes made us stronger players. In this case, CCP is killing the value of spending time. Sure, we occasionally got a 'whale' type who would come in, brave the Char Bazaar and buy character and a bunch of isk and end up being an 'ALOD' on some website. But very few people did that, where as now many many more people have access to that functionality. The most likely outcome is that it will accelerate the rate in which new players leave as they find the game they spent a couple hundred bucks on to 'catch up' has nothing to catch up to and is basically devoid of content (in the sense they, as regular mmo players expect it to). They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game".
CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone.
This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it.
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
13593
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:00:18 -
[93] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote:You know, I keep reading people saying that anyone brought into the game via Skill Injectors is some kind of degenerate that we don't want.
Having done the grind myself, and actually enjoyed the grind, I also don't begrudge people the ability to escape the grind and quickly enable themselves to fly alongside the friends who invited them to the game.
Think about it this way: You're unfamiliar with EVE Online, but then a friend links you a video of some of his friends going on a roam with Vagabonds.
You want to get in the game and fly those ships with your friends because you liked what you saw. However, as soon as you accept that Buddy Invite you're faced with the fact that it'll take 2 months of grind at least to be able to fly that ship with your friends.
Then you're told about Skill Injectors. Your friend tosses you one with some SP he didn't want anymore, and you use that as a start to get into earning ISK to use to buy more of them. You now have the potential to join that Vagabond pack the next time they go out, and you can learn as you fly just like you would have been doing with Rifters. Yeah, it's more expensive and your mistakes will cost you more, but at the end of the day EVE is about flying with people you know at its core.
Would you rather do the solo grind up through Frigates and Level 1 mission grinding, or hop right in with your friends and take bigger risks for the potential of better reward?
Just because some of the people that might come into the game now have a different value system than us doesn't make their potential to benefit our community any less real.
Value system has nothing to do with it.
Of course most people would have rather started the game with a free titan , 100 mil skill points and a trillion isk in the wallet. That's how people are. but what makes a game valuable is challenge , a little bit of sacrifice, and a sense of accomplishment.
The real problem here is that the people supporting SP trading are the kinds of folks who don't appreciate the value of their previous experiences. They are like real life modern day parents who "want their kids to have everything they didn't when they were kids" who go on to create overly coddled unfeeling amoral monsters who are only that way because they were over-indulged.
The intention is well meaning, the result is always a disaster.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
13593
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:03:11 -
[94] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game".
CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone.
This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it.
That sounds an awful lot like gambling.
Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2436
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:06:55 -
[95] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game".
CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone.
This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it.
That sounds an awful lot like gambling. Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb.
Was it a sure thing? subs dropping isnt really a sure thing, constant complaining from pretty much everyone for change and the data they get about why people stopped playing maybe led to this, this isnt a big deal, its only a big deal if you make it a big deal
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5038
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:12:11 -
[96] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game".
CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone.
This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it.
That sounds an awful lot like gambling. Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb. Was it a sure thing? subs dropping isnt really a sure thing, constant complaining from pretty much everyone for change and the data they get about why people stopped playing maybe led to this, this isnt a big deal, its only a big deal if you make it a big deal Reddit doesnt need EVE subscription.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
464
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:12:54 -
[97] - Quote
All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. |
Amber Kurvora
234
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Posted - 2016.02.12 14:19:13 -
[98] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me.
There's only one response for this... |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1916
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Posted - 2016.02.12 19:41:32 -
[99] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Reddit doesnt need EVE subscription. Which doesn't negate the number of them that are subscribed.
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Lasisha Mishi
Touch of Death
3
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Posted - 2016.02.12 19:49:57 -
[100] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. what happened to you quitting? |
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Chameleopardis
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.02.12 19:54:13 -
[101] - Quote
Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else.
Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
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Aaaarrgg
The Conference Elite CODE.
13
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Posted - 2016.02.13 00:41:43 -
[102] - Quote
Chameleopardis wrote:Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else.
Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
i cared
would try to explain it but from reading the forums there are a lot who are unable to understand what's wrong with it, im going to guess you may be another
even having to explain what is wrong with this shows how far EVE has moved away from its origins
this makes me sad
I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( |
Alea
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
211
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Posted - 2016.02.13 01:05:57 -
[103] - Quote
Chameleopardis wrote:Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else.
Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
Me and others who put in the work to get where we are today, HTFU is no longer in the Eve vocabulary.
Whomever is making the last couple years decisions on what coding changes are to be implemented in this game must hate Eve with all their being.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
467
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Posted - 2016.02.13 01:17:28 -
[104] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. what happened to you quitting? Would've already happened if I haven't already paid for my accounts 1 week before that 2nd Devblog got posted.
And it will happen eventually anyway sooner or later, so be patient dear. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Northern Army
981
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Posted - 2016.02.13 01:46:35 -
[105] - Quote
If you managed to farm more SP than it costs to plex the account, I would be amazed.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Aiwha for CSM XI
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Dyllan Ma'tar
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
11
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Posted - 2016.02.13 01:49:21 -
[106] - Quote
Chameleopardis wrote:Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else.
Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
The people that have nothing to make them feel superior to others outside of waiting for a timer to run down.
> Do not stubbornly rebel against the ways of the world. Do not mindlessly follow the ways of the world. Think lightly of yourself and think deeply of the world. You can abandon your own body, but never let go of your honor. Miyamoto Musashi, Dokkodo
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Zirashi
State Protectorate Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2016.02.13 02:12:11 -
[107] - Quote
Gedrick frogue wrote:WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not FYI if anyone was wondering, as a WoW player myself, from this line it is clear that OP doesn't play WoW, attempts to speak authoritatively on subjects he knows absolutely nothing about, and/or will outright lie to make his "point." The credibility of this individual is zero and further discussions is an exercise in futility.
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
866
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Posted - 2016.02.13 02:53:24 -
[108] - Quote
Zirashi wrote:Gedrick frogue wrote:WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not FYI if anyone was wondering, as a WoW player myself, from this line it is clear that OP doesn't play WoW, attempts to speak authoritatively on subjects he knows absolutely nothing about, and/or will outright lie to make his "point." The credibility of this individual is zero and further discussions is an exercise in futility. beginning of the end?
no
it is end of the end. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1918
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Posted - 2016.02.13 02:58:42 -
[109] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:beginning of the end?
no
it is end of the end. And yet nothing has ended.
Everything continues just as it did.
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stg slate
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2016.02.13 03:21:38 -
[110] - Quote
Aaaarrgg wrote:I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :(
It is a new age, in the past you had to buy GTC to sell to buy a high-end character from the bazaar, and you could do that on day 1 if you wanted. A wallet full of cash could buy you a titan pilot and enough ISK to buy one 2 years ago. Today you buy plex and injectors, but its the same damned thing as far as 'hardness' goes.
It has always been as hard as opening a wallet SINCE FOREVER. |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9848
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Posted - 2016.02.13 03:31:28 -
[111] - Quote
Aaaarrgg wrote:Chameleopardis wrote:Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else.
Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
i cared would try to explain it but from reading the forums there are a lot who are unable to understand what's wrong with it, im going to guess you may be another even having to explain what is wrong with this shows how far EVE has moved away from its origins this makes me sad I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( Based on your inability to grasp the basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, I'd guess you are far to young to have played this game long enough to care about anything in it.
You were probably six when EVE was last a harsh, cold universe.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Diametrix
Black Rise Goods and Services
33
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Posted - 2016.02.13 03:42:21 -
[112] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:No, the new skill trading is not "pay to win".
And yes, yes it did Devalue some very important things in the game. In odd ways too, last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'.
And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site.
Even if the demand goes down, it won't go down far. Just like there is always a new demand for PLEX (and other things like SOE items , which is why even after all the SOE mission farming people are still doing it), there will always be players who want an SP short cut.
Problem is that CCP just gave some of us even less reason to actually play the game. Before this change, the "SP farmers" were the guys who could stand to deal with the horribly inefficent Char Baazar. Now's it's, well everyone. Jenna (and everyone else that agrees that 'Devaluing EVE = devaluing YOUR time),
It's not about YOU! It's about all of us. The very first response in this thread got it right - this is a value re-distribution system.
You sold a ton of alt SP for a ton of isk and then didn't play because EVE (temporarily) lost some of that vaule-added thrill.
Do you have any idea how much of that 'value-added thrill' you've just 'given/sold' to many other players?
Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to.
Adapt, Over Come, HTFU
o7 |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
467
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Posted - 2016.02.13 03:57:46 -
[113] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:If you managed to farm more SP than it costs to plex the account, I would be amazed. I generate 2 Mill SP on each of my alts every month.
I can buy an extractor for 260 mill isk from buy orders and sell them for 680 Mill isk in Dodi.
So you spend 1.04 bill isk on 4 extractors and gain 2.7 bill isk from selling the injectors which comes out to a 1,680,000,000.00 isk in profit.
Subtract 1,260,000,000.00 for a plex and that still leaves a 420 mill isk in pure profit, lol.
The only downside to this is no further char development for those chars. But they can already have right at 40 Mill SP and can fly all turret Marauders at V so I could just leave them right there and play them for free. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
148
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Posted - 2016.02.13 10:06:50 -
[114] - Quote
Diametrix wrote: Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to.
Adapt, Over Come, HTFU
o7
How is skill trading distribution of wealth? The old, wealthy players earn a ton of ISK by selling their SP and the space rich got a new gold item for hoarding.
The new players will be even poorer because now there is a constant pressure to keep up with wallet warriors and hardcore ISK grinders.
If i were a newbie in EVE right now, i would probably quit very fast because skill trading looks a lot like P2W. I know its not P2W, but its definitly P2Progress and i don't think truly new playes will see the difference. EVE already has a reputation of being a very expensive game because of all the "50.000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2443
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Posted - 2016.02.13 10:17:57 -
[115] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:Diametrix wrote: Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to.
Adapt, Over Come, HTFU
o7
How is skill trading distribution of wealth? The old, wealthy players earn a ton of ISK by selling their SP and the space rich got a new gold item for hoarding. The new players will be even poorer because now there is a constant pressure to keep up with wallet warriors and hardcore ISK grinders. If i were a newbie in EVE right now, i would probably quit very fast because skill trading looks a lot like P2W. I know its not P2W, but its definitly P2Progress and i don't think truly new playes will see the difference. EVE already has a reputation of being a very expensive game because of all the "50.000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles.
when i was a newbie the character bazaar was the only option and something i could aim towards, skill trading seems a bit easier than tryin to find 16bil for a char (at the time)
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Gliese Casserres
Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate
39
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Posted - 2016.02.13 10:37:33 -
[116] - Quote
Training my first and second racial cruiser to 5 felt like an accomplishment. When I sucked the mining- and rock related skills out of my toons and got third racial cruiser with the free SP it didn't offer any similar satisfaction - It was too easy. Eve used to be hunt for isk and wait for sp and content, now it feels like the sole purpose is to hunt for isk. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
184
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Posted - 2016.02.13 12:42:30 -
[117] - Quote
This will be the event that put the last nail in Eve's coffin. How many other MMOs have followed this same death spiral?
First player subs start falling until they are worryingly low, next the Devs misread these falling subs as a sign they need to stop what they're doing and chase new players. Following this goal they introduce a mechanic which has no place in that MMO, existing players hate the change, new players don't remain subbed like the old ones did now that the experience has been cheapened, and the end result is a further fall in subs. Either the game closes at this point because they've successfully driven out everyone or they are forced to continue taking more drastic and uncharacteristic actions.
CCP should look back to see how the game was when it was growing it's fastest, replicate that and you can expect the same results. I have long thought that the new player experience could be reworked into a much more welcoming form and that this would have a much larger impact in player numbers than SP trading could ever hope for. NOT the type of rework that CCP has done in the past, eve is complex enough for a walk through tutorial.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
866
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Posted - 2016.02.13 13:00:39 -
[118] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Aaaarrgg wrote:I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( It is a new age, in the past you had to buy GTC to sell to buy a high-end character from the bazaar, and you could do that on day 1 if you wanted. A wallet full of cash could buy you a titan pilot and enough ISK to buy one 2 years ago. Today you buy plex and injectors, but its the same damned thing as far as 'hardness' goes. It has always been as hard as opening a wallet SINCE FOREVER.
character from bazaar is different thing.
people complain already from off grid boost alts etc....
next mandatory for pvp will be max skilled char because everyone else has those too.
and how this will be any good for EVE?
also you can not use charachter age to determine his skill level, so once again CCP destroyed one way to get intel about oncoming events. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2443
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Posted - 2016.02.13 13:00:43 -
[119] - Quote
Gliese Casserres wrote:Training my first and second racial cruiser to 5 felt like an accomplishment. When I sucked the mining- and rock related skills out of my toons and got third racial cruiser with the free SP it didn't offer any similar satisfaction - It was too easy. Eve used to be hunt for isk and wait for sp and content, now it feels like the sole purpose is to hunt for isk.
make the sole purpose to hunt for content, just because skills can be bought and sold doesnt mean you have to jump on the band wagon and actually do it, if you feel it has ruined your game then stop doing it, its pretty simple, nobody is forcing you to sell sp thats your own greed taking over.
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
868
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Posted - 2016.02.13 13:23:20 -
[120] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
no it ever wont be a requirement to have max skills to pvp, who even cares about skills in pvp?
it used to be like that , but now when it is possible to everyone have max skills for ship and fit it will be requirement for everyone.
You will see.
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