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Gedrick frogue Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan 2	Posted - 2016.02.11 11:30:23 - [1] - Quote Hi All I'm probably going to get a fair bit of grief about this but I want to know why CCP has devalued Eve and by devalued I am referring to SP trading Eve's greatest strength has always been that you had to earn, learn and grow within Eve, you learnt how skills, ship's, fittings, weapons, industry et all worked You did this by training skills and working things out with corp buddies, you also valued your skill points, after all some skills could take you 30 or more days to train for So now you can pay some Isk and buy an injector and jump up your skills, you have lost more than what you think you have gained You have lost that value, teamwork and understanding element that you had when before this "feature" you had respec'ed your attributes, stuffed implants into your head asked your buddies how to get towards your goal and train, all these things that made Eve, Eve OK i know this probably isn't the end of Eve but this IS a fundamental shift in how and what Eve is, Eve has just been drastically changed by CCP and for what? Simple answer is money, After all Eve is CCP's only viable money making product and is getting as much as it can out of our wallets, well they have to pay for the development of new products but devaluing Eve to do so doesn't make sense WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not Yup, i know that a lot of people will disagree with me and they will argue that SP trading is the best thing since sliced bread and that others will be in the opposite camp I guess time will tell and we'll all find out if Eve survives or dies Cheers Ged
Barrett Fruitcake State War Academy Caldari State 9	Posted - 2016.02.11 11:46:10 - [2] - Quote Its simply a way to facilitate a massive distribution of wealth within the game to the less fortunate, who have been playing long enough to gain massive amounts of useless SP since CCP has been a bit slow in giving the older players something useful to train for over the last few years. Those who are just entering the game can do this by pushing a ton of apparently un-needed cash toward CCP in return for high valued things they can exchange for ISK in-game, which they can then spend that ISK for SP injectors and therefore become the "cattle" of New Eden until they learn their way around. Those who have been in the game for a long time and have been fortunate enough to be able to funnel some of the greatest sources of wealth their way, or have had an abundance of free time can then transfer some of that vast amounts of ISK to those who have been less fortunate and want to get rid of that currently useless SP. In any case, its a win win for Eve Online and CCP. CCP gets a ton more of RL money thrown at them, and there is a short term significant redistribution of wealth within the game for which all spells to moar players have moar isk to spend on in-game items to fuel the destruction of those items through either ignorance or the short term flush of finally being rich and wanting strut your stuff in-game. The new gamers are happy, at least initially. The old less fortunate gamers are happy, for a bit longer. And the old most fortunate can admire the fact that they now have as much SP as any Dev char in the game. Cheers!
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2420	Posted - 2016.02.11 11:55:02 - [3] - Quote do we really need anymore discussion posts about sp trading sheesh "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Buba Neagra Hedion University Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:03:59 - [4] - Quote No SP comes out of thin air so I see nothing wrong here. I'd say this new feature is a SP sink since you extract 500k and you can inject from 500k to 150k. Few will use injectors, most of the player base ain't got the money to do it so no big change overall.
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 1065	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:53:48 - [5] - Quote Cash is king. Not today spaghetti.
Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc. 66	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:59:00 - [6] - Quote A 4-day-old character lost his 10-billion Ark yesterday. SP != Skill. SP does not teach you anything, it only enables you to do certain things. Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Memphis Baas 1108	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:00:27 - [7] - Quote Gedrick frogue wrote: I'm probably going to get a fair bit of grief about this but I want to know why CCP has devalued Eve and by devalued I am referring to SP trading. Because they probably made a cool $1 million in one day, compared to in 1 month previously. As far as all that in-game social stuff that you value, look at it from a non-gamer's point of view: you're such a loser for wasting your life with a GAME, lol! You could be out there making friends and getting laid in RL. Basically, it's all worthless.
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 282	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:02:45 - [8] - Quote legit question, how do you "win" in EVE? what does "winning" mean to you? can you please give an example of "winning" in EVE? thank you. Just Add Water
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 458	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:15:55 - [9] - Quote Nat Silverguard wrote: legit question, how do you "win" in EVE? what does "winning" mean to you? can you please give an example of "winning" in EVE? thank you. Ignore this guys post. He is a troll and will troll you endlessly of this same question over and over again regardless of the facts you present to him. To the OP, you are correct. This game have been greatly devalued with the addition of this pay2win feature and can no longer be called Eve. This game is now called World of Spaceships, Eve is dead!
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 282	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:37:36 - [10] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Nat Silverguard wrote: legit question, how do you "win" in EVE? what does "winning" mean to you? can you please give an example of "winning" in EVE? thank you. Ignore this guys post. He is a troll and will troll you endlessly of this same question over and over again regardless of the facts you present to him. To the OP, you are correct. This game have been greatly devalued with the addition of this pay2win feature and can no longer be called Eve. This game is now called World of Spaceships, Eve is dead! i'm a troll? lol, look at our post histories and find out who's post are toxic and s2pid. you choose not to answer my questions because you can't. this is not your typical themepark game wherein level and gear determines your success in clearing dungeons and raids. Just Add Water

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13567	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:02:08 - [11] - Quote No, the new skill trading is not "pay to win". And yes, yes it did Devalue some very important things in the game. In odd ways too, last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site. Even if the demand goes down, it won't go down far. Just like there is always a new demand for PLEX (and other things like SOE items , which is why even after all the SOE mission farming people are still doing it), there will always be players who want an SP short cut. Problem is that CCP just gave some of us even less reason to actually play the game. Before this change, the "SP farmers" were the guys who could stand to deal with the horribly inefficent Char Baazar. Now's it's, well everyone.
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 32	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:17:52 - [12] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: ... last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site... First world problem... I have too much money in my internet spaceship game so it isn't exciting anymore.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13568	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:29:44 - [13] - Quote stg slate wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: ... last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site... First world problem... I have too much money in my internet spaceship game so it isn't exciting anymore. You do know we're playing a game right? How fun would soccer be if you got 10 goals awarded to you just by stepping on the field? Isk/wealth is already too easy to make, now it's even easier and will be easier still when CCP adds that 'tribute' scheme. For anything to mean anything, it must be fairly rare and not so easy to get a hold of. That's why Gold is a precious metal and dirt is dirt. CCP keeps adding new ways to make isk into dirt.
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 39	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:49:17 - [14] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Isk/wealth is already too easy to make... Too much money? Try spending it. If you think EVE is about ISK, I think you've missed the point. ISK is just a grind in front of the fun things. Unlimited ISK? No grind. Sounds like heaven to me.
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 39	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:51:00 - [15] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: For anything to mean anything... You do know we're playing a game right?
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 1862	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:01:23 - [16] - Quote I'm not terribly fond of the injectors, myself, but all the histrionics are far worse. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 125	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:06:52 - [17] - Quote Nat Silverguard wrote: legit question, how do you "win" in EVE? what does "winning" mean to you? can you please give an example of "winning" in EVE? thank you. Apparently just being James 315 is winning. --Gadget - not winning EvE Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 33	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:07:09 - [18] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: You do know we're playing a game right? How fun would soccer be if you got 10 goals awarded to you just by stepping on the field? Isk/wealth is already too easy to make, now it's even easier and will be easier still when CCP adds that 'tribute' scheme. For anything to mean anything, it must be fairly rare and not so easy to get a hold of. That's why Gold is a precious metal and dirt is dirt. CCP keeps adding new ways to make isk into dirt. I don't see how this invalidates my point. If you are so awesome at this game that you can't even spend all the money you get I assure you that isn't a widespread problem. ISK isn't dirt to most players because most players aren't goblins or tryhards.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 30	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:19:07 - [19] - Quote It's not pay to win. But the game feels different now. Before, there was a hard cap on your character's SP gain. Didn't matter how rich you were, your character advanced at the same max speed as everyone else. Now your character's advancement is limited by your wallet, and of course by the number of injectors on the market. EVE now has a two-tier character advancement system: time based basic tier, and time+money based premium tier.
Fa Xian Furious Timewasters 39	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:58:33 - [20] - Quote Dibz wrote: EVE now has a two-tier character advancement system: time based basic tier, and time+money based premium tier. You mean "bought it from another player who earned it earlier on the basic tier" tier, right?

Michael Turate The Scope Gallente Federation 124	Posted - 2016.02.11 18:42:00 - [21] - Quote You can't buy social skills, intelligence, cunning, the ability to work in a team, communication, tactics or any of the stuff that really matters in Eve. There have never been short cuts in Eve. There still aren't, there's just an enormously expensive alternative route that looks like a short cut but which, for most, will just be a dead end.
Kelby 61	Posted - 2016.02.11 18:50:43 - [22] - Quote Injected SP could have been limited to 5-10mil SP per year in an effort to keep everyone happy-ish but any damage that was going to be done is now most likely done. Maybe characters that inject SP should get an indicator on their character information :)
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2422	Posted - 2016.02.11 18:58:11 - [23] - Quote Kelby wrote: Injected SP could have been limited to 5-10mil SP per year in an effort to keep everyone happy-ish but any damage that was going to be done is now most likely done. Maybe characters that inject SP should get an indicator on their character information :) it wont be hard to see on api's that your sp just doesnt add up to time you have played "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Khergit Deserters Crom's Angels 4381	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:01:46 - [24] - Quote I'll miss building chars to sell in the Character Bazaar. They were my perfect little babies, every skill focused, not one wasted SP.... Joen: "If everthing is imperfect in this world, love is perfect in its imperfection." Drunken blacksmith: "You're lucky. You believe in your own twaddle." Joen: "Who says I believe it? I just like giving advice." -The Seventh Seal
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 34	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:22:51 - [25] - Quote Khergit Deserters wrote: I'll miss building chars to sell in the Character Bazaar. They were my perfect little babies, every skill focused, not one wasted SP.... Yup... Alexis Valigarmanda, Corwin D'Loa, Xelena Shellar, you are the last 3 Slate Manufacturing BrandGäó toons to enter the world born solely for eventual sale.
Ibutho Inkosi Irubo Kovu 112	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:25:41 - [26] - Quote Wouldn't be the first time someone misread their own strengths and led with the wrong foot. Won't be the last. As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Idris Maelfa Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:41:12 - [27] - Quote My view on this. I have had to take a break from the game due to Real Life issues for a few years. So that I could keep on training I have been paying my monthly fee to CCP so that, at least, I can have some skills into my characters that I can use when I return. Most of these are Industrial so these don't really require Real Life Behind The Keyboard Pew Skills. I then find that I could instead just buy SP. I feel very short-changed.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9837	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:47:18 - [28] - Quote Gedrick frogue wrote: Eve's greatest strength has always been that you had to earn, learn and grow within Eve, you learnt how skills, ship's, fittings, weapons, industry et all worked Being able to purchase something that you get anyway for doing nothing more than having a sub changes none of that. Sure, you can buy skills, but you still need to learn to use them. And you can't buy experience. That's what sets this game apart from most MMOs. It's not about how many SP you have. It's about investing the huge amount of time needed to use them. I wish people would learn the difference between SP and experience. Though, if they did, the forum wouldn't be near as entertaining.. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Yonis Kador KADORCORP 598	Posted - 2016.02.11 19:50:44 - [29] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: To the OP, you are correct. This game have been greatly devalued with the addition of this pay2win feature and can no longer be called Eve. This game is now called World of Spaceships, Eve is dead! I'm calling our new game BERNICE ONLINE... EVE's slightly less-attractive, overweight cousin. I've even come up with some new taglines since HTFU is out... BERNICE ONLINE: You know you'd still hit it. BERNICE ONLINE: Drink until she's pretty enough to take home. YK
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 124	Posted - 2016.02.11 20:24:17 - [30] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: No, the new skill trading is not "pay to win". And yes, yes it did Devalue some very important things in the game. In odd ways too, last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site. CCP did not devalue EVE, you did by your choice. Nobody is forcing you to have SP farming toons. That was your choice. I don't have farming alts (A choice I have made) and I enjoy the game. If it kills your enjoyment, don't do it and log in instead and do what you enjoy. Seems like your greed has been your own undoing, not CCPs. "I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13580	Posted - 2016.02.11 20:37:42 - [31] - Quote sero Hita wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: No, the new skill trading is not "pay to win". And yes, yes it did Devalue some very important things in the game. In odd ways too, last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site. CCP did not devalue EVE, you did by your choice. Nobody is forcing you to have SP farming toons. That was your choice. I don't have farming alts (A choice I have made) and I enjoy the game. If it kills your enjoyment, don't do it and log in instead and do what you enjoy. Seems like your greed has been your own undoing, not CCPs. Taking advantage of free candy isn't greed, it's taking advantage of free candy. you'd have had to be stupid to not cash in. And failing to do so would have put me at a competitive disadvantage. The person who choose to not cash in is now at a disadvantage to me, I can lose Machariels in DED 10/10s twice a day for the next 30 days without feeling any pain where as the person who could have and didn't didn't do what I did loses one Mach and feels the pain instantly. Just using that as an exmaple, I don't lose ships in PVE. What you just typed amounts to "hey, it doesn't matter if something is broken and has deleterious affects on the overall game, just choose not to do it and ignore all the bad things that are about to happen around you and it's fine!". That's naive and unrealistic thinking. Regardless of CCPs financial situation, the last thing EVE Online needed was another farmable wealth faucet. It has to many already. Among other things, this one is going to WIDEN the wealth gap between rich-old and poor-new, because the new players will take this skill point short cut (not understanding that it's a mistake to move too quickly), lose expensive ships they never should have been in, and perhaps buy more plex to buy more ships....from the rich established players that make them. It was funny when a few people did it via the character baazar, it won't be funny as more people do it now that it's easier to do.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 125	Posted - 2016.02.11 20:41:07 - [32] - Quote Quote: Taking advantage of free candy isn't greed, it's taking advantage of free candy. you'd have had to be stupid to not cash in. Been in a lot of vans haven't we? --Curious Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Annemariela Antonela Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out. 335	Posted - 2016.02.11 20:50:49 - [33] - Quote I am a recently subbed pilot. I want to PvP with my corp. Injectors made it possible to meet certain fits, and bring core skills up to somewhere in which I might actually be able to x up and be useful. I have used several of them, and I think anyone in my position would, and then observe that the diminishing returns are harder to stomach than the waiting. There are diminishing returns. I don't think the sentimentality or pearlclutching are necessary, considering a constantly evolving game. GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥ GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
Corvald Tyrska Dha'Vargar 62	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:18:44 - [34] - Quote I'm curious as to how exactly you see the net effect of buying skill injectors any different from buying characters on the character bazaar? For years people willing to drop the cash have been able to buy characters with any amount of skills they wanted. The only difference now is that you customize those skills a little more and name the character how you want to name them. Perhaps you can explain why this level of customization deserves endless forum whining and complaining and how it is totally game breaking. EVE is no more or less pay 2 win then it was in the past.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 714	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:44:23 - [35] - Quote Buba Neagra wrote: No SP comes out of thin air so I see nothing wrong here. I'd say this new feature is a SP sink since you extract 500k and you can inject from 500k to 150k. Few will use injectors, most of the player base ain't got the money to do it so no big change overall. Not just is the diminishing returns an SP sink, but injectors being blown up is an SP sink. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2425	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:49:00 - [36] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Buba Neagra wrote: No SP comes out of thin air so I see nothing wrong here. I'd say this new feature is a SP sink since you extract 500k and you can inject from 500k to 150k. Few will use injectors, most of the player base ain't got the money to do it so no big change overall. Not just is the diminishing returns an SP sink, but injectors being blown up is an SP sink. in EVE you can be whatever you want, its a shame some choose to be stupid "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 714	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:50:35 - [37] - Quote /sigh. Alright, how am I being stupid? My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2425	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:53:38 - [38] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: /sigh. Alright, how am I being stupid? didnt mean you i mean people dying in haulers with injectors in the cargo "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1914	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:59:25 - [39] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Taking advantage of free candy isn't greed, it's taking advantage of free candy. you'd have had to be stupid to not cash in. Some 70milliom SP I have is unused and yet still not cashed in. Free candy right there not taken advantage of. Why? Because that's a part of my characters: their identity and their capability alongside several years of conscious decision making. Part of what I enjoy about the game is expanding those abilities and efficiencies, and my preferred method of doing so is entirely intact. And you're right, I have to be more careful than you with my decisions. I haven't devalued both my characters and my experience then blamed CCP for me having made the choice to do so.
Hal Morsh Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem 501	Posted - 2016.02.11 21:59:37 - [40] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9vEmr6V6c8 Then podded again. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13580	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:20:17 - [41] - Quote Corvald Tyrska wrote: I'm curious as to how exactly you see the net effect of buying skill injectors any different from buying characters on the character bazaar? For years people willing to drop the cash have been able to buy characters with any amount of skills they wanted. The only difference now is that you customize those skills a little more and name the character how you want to name them. Perhaps you can explain why this level of customization deserves endless forum whining and complaining and how it is totally game breaking. EVE is no more or less pay 2 win then it was in the past. The difference is and will be scale. This feature is going to be an abject lesson to CCP of the folly of cash grabbing. There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited. The people supporting skill trading are every bit as na+»ve as the people who argued with us back in 2009. CCP claimed Dominion Sov would be GREAT for small groups, and the...overly optimistic types agreed and some even proclaimed that the 'entrenched powers' were going to get what they had coming. What they got was richer and stronger while the weaker folk got poorer...them absorbed into the CFC lol. What they did was complexly shut out the few small/independent types who had a bit of sov. As in EVERY case like this, the people who were supposed to benefit, mostly didn't, while the people who should have never been handed more advantages used the system to create even more advantages. A few years later I was more than happy to gloat at CCP a bit when the truth finally set in (because it was so obvious and "blue donuty" that it could no longer be ignored). I plan on doing the exact same with this feature, after breaking the space-bank with SP farmed isk...that will probably be about as valuable as a Zimbabwe dollar by then.
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 35	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:49:12 - [42] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited. Umm... have you forgotten that farming skill points actually, you know, costs RL cash? And you could just buy a PLEX instead of paying for a ton of farm accounts, and not have to deal with the enormous hassle of running some giant hypothetical SP farm-army of alts? This isn't some mystical free money source, you pay for it with your wallet, which you can already do today with PLEX.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13580	Posted - 2016.02.11 22:52:46 - [43] - Quote stg slate wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited. Umm... have you forgotten that farming skill points actually, you know, costs RL cash? And you could just buy a PLEX instead of paying for a ton of farm accounts, and not have to deal with the enormous hassle of running some giant hypothetical SP farm-army of alts? This isn't some mystical free money source, you pay for it with your wallet, which you can already do today with PLEX. Someone is paying cash. I'm not, i'm buying extractors with isk. It Is a free source of money, and a source I wouldn't have used otherwise, I would never be a character seller.
Myrradah Apotheosis of Caledvwich Dirt Nap Squad. 18	Posted - 2016.02.11 23:03:57 - [44] - Quote I for one look forward to blowing people up in silly expensive ships with my t1 ship and laughing to the station as I drop their loot off to resell to them later. You may have the SP but by no means does that mean you should be anywhere near it. As Star Citizen continues to see people leave and come back / to Eve - they sell those accounts to other stupid people and come here and buy all the SP they want... YUMMM! I predict many tears when people realize that Skill points equal out eventually - meaning about 40 million SP into a combat specific toon your SP in the combat efficiency of that ship versus someone in the game since 2003 is negligible. its the experience that matters.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4674	Posted - 2016.02.11 23:32:12 - [45] - Quote To keep this short: CCP can't make a better game, and so they are selling the same old faulty game in a different way. FAI, rather than make an awesome experience out of having 2 million SP, CCP sells SP to "lift" the "SP barrier" between start and "awesome". "You should play our game because it stinks until you reach some arbitrary milestones and now we're selling you a fast track to some arbitrary milestone" That doesn't works not even for leveled MMOs where the milestones are real. Go figure what for a sandbox where it is the player's right and duty to determine his milestones. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Doppleganger Federated Holdings Libera Alliance 47	Posted - 2016.02.11 23:41:06 - [46] - Quote It all how you see it... I feel that Eve is devalued and I'm no longer going to pay with cash accounts anymore. I spent almost 13 yrs paying with cash and today it comes to an end. I will still try to play but I will just switch to doing it with plex from the isk I make and what I have saved up in the wallet and my assets. I will leave the paying for eve in real cash to those that want to as these changes make me no longer want to do that. I have played this game from the beginning I have seen the good improvements to the game and the plain stupid ones. Its CCP's game and property they can do whatever they want. I just can't tell if Eve is evolving or devolving but I know its the 1st time in all these yrs I have decided to pull my support for this game by the dollars I pay for it.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1914	Posted - 2016.02.11 23:53:24 - [47] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: FAI, rather than make an awesome experience out of having 2 million SP, CCP sells SP to "lift" the "SP barrier" between start and "awesome". What can the do that they haven't already to make 2 million SP more attractive? And how would they do so without making all the same people angry? All the ideas I can think of don't really address the issue without either making the "I earned it and now their giving it away" crowd angry or the "All my SP is now useless" claim we've so often seen (which bears mentioning that this was pretty much just solved). Generalizations make for nice jabs, but what specifically do you think they could offer? Doppleganger wrote: I will still try to play but I will just switch to doing it with plex from the isk I make and what I have saved up in the wallet and my assets. I still think this to be one of the worst ways to protest against CCP. Not giving them your cash while soliciting someone else to spend even more real money than you would have with your isk. That's not really harming them.
Doppleganger Federated Holdings Libera Alliance 48	Posted - 2016.02.12 00:29:45 - [48] - Quote Quote: Doppleganger wrote: I will still try to play but I will just switch to doing it with plex from the isk I make and what I have saved up in the wallet and my assets. I still think this to be one of the worst ways to protest against CCP. Not giving them your cash while soliciting someone else to spend even more real money than you would have with your isk. That's not really harming them. Why would I want to harm CCP they gave me a wonderful game for so many years. I just dont want them in my wallet anymore, I have no problem selling their virtual goods I have earned over time to someone else for game time. If someone else wants to pay cash for their virtual goods thats fine by me I just happen to have some of CCP's virtual goods I'm willing to sell. I mean isnt that the whole spirit behind this selling of SP... It's CCP saying there are no more sacred cows in the game that everything is for sale so I'm just trying to get in the spirit and join along. After all its their game they are devaluing I'm just joining in.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1914	Posted - 2016.02.12 00:39:12 - [49] - Quote Doppleganger wrote: [Why would I want to harm CCP they gave me a wonderful game for so many years. I just dont want them in my wallet anymore, I have no problem selling their virtual goods I have earned over time to someone else for game time. If someone else wants to pay cash for their virtual goods thats fine by me I just happen to have some of CCP's virtual goods I'm willing to sell. My assumption here, and quite possibly an incorrect one, is that the move to using PLEX was intended as a means to state your displeasure regarding the state of the game with skill injectors present. If that wasn't the intent, but rather just the idea that so long as it's not your money it's fine then what I said of course does not apply to your goal, but the decision is still beneficial to CCP.
Doppleganger Federated Holdings Libera Alliance 49	Posted - 2016.02.12 01:25:10 - [50] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Doppleganger wrote: [Why would I want to harm CCP they gave me a wonderful game for so many years. I just dont want them in my wallet anymore, I have no problem selling their virtual goods I have earned over time to someone else for game time. If someone else wants to pay cash for their virtual goods thats fine by me I just happen to have some of CCP's virtual goods I'm willing to sell. My assumption here, and quite possibly an incorrect one, is that the move to using PLEX was intended as a means to state your displeasure regarding the state of the game with skill injectors present. If that wasn't the intent, but rather just the idea that so long as it's not your money it's fine then what I said of course does not apply to your goal, but the decision is still beneficial to CCP. Yes I believe the decision CCP made will be beneficial for them... I hope it gains them alot of customers that want to invest in the game for yrs to come like I did for 12+ yrs.

Linus Gorp Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc. 74	Posted - 2016.02.12 01:47:22 - [51] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9vEmr6V6c8 Then podded again. Oh boy, that's glorious! Hahahahahaha When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 36	Posted - 2016.02.12 01:48:58 - [52] - Quote Doppleganger wrote: It all how you see it... I feel that Eve is devalued and I'm no longer going to pay with cash accounts anymore. I spent almost 13 yrs paying with cash and today it comes to an end. I will still try to play but I will just switch to doing it with plex from the isk I make and what I have saved up in the wallet and my assets. I will leave the paying for eve in real cash to those that want to as these changes make me no longer want to do that. I have played this game from the beginning I have seen the good improvements to the game and the plain stupid ones. Its CCP's game and property they can do whatever they want. I just can't tell if Eve is evolving or devolving but I know its the 1st time in all these yrs I have decided to pull my support for this game by the dollars I pay for it. If you do consider leaving at the end, consider donating your stuff, I've got 3 players who are newish to playing the game (as opposed to playing skill-queue online) who enjoy the game in its current format.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 460	Posted - 2016.02.12 02:08:00 - [53] - Quote Doppleganger wrote: It all how you see it... I feel that Eve is devalued and I'm no longer going to pay with cash accounts anymore. I spent almost 13 yrs paying with cash and today it comes to an end. I will still try to play but I will just switch to doing it with plex from the isk I make and what I have saved up in the wallet and my assets. I will leave the paying for eve in real cash to those that want to as these changes make me no longer want to do that. I have played this game from the beginning I have seen the good improvements to the game and the plain stupid ones. Its CCP's game and property they can do whatever they want. I just can't tell if Eve is evolving or devolving but I know its the 1st time in all these yrs I have decided to pull my support for this game by the dollars I pay for it. I concur with your thoughts. Though I've only being playing Eve for 2 1/2 years so I can't imagine the depth of your disgust from this change after playing the game for 13 years, you have my sympathy. As it is Eve (now called WoSS) has completely lost all of it's PVE element and is now a pure PVP game. And as a mostly PVE player I find no reason left to continue playing this game. I was eventually going to migrate to PVP in time but I don't like being control or force into doing something until I'm ready. Ironically the only reason I haven't biomassed my characters and quit this game yet is because of the sentimental attachments I have to my chars that I created, trained and cultivated up till now. This type of sentimental attachment is something that these newscrubs won't ever experience and will leave Eve as soon as they get bored without any hesitation.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1914	Posted - 2016.02.12 02:33:27 - [54] - Quote Doppleganger wrote: Yes I believe the decision CCP made will be beneficial for them... I hope it gains them alot of customers that want to invest in the game for yrs to come like I did for 12+ yrs. I did say in earlier post that I will try to play.... before all this it was always guaranteed that I would play because I was invested in the game. I am no longer invested in the game anymore so who knows. Well, the answer is simple. Look at what made you invested in the game. See if and how it changed and evaluate whether you're still invested accordingly. Personally Eve for me was about developing my characters and achieving a series of self set goals alongside the fun of fitting and flying ships. There was in all reality not a single change to what I'm doing. There was a change in that others were no longer restricted to the same methods of character advancement, but that has no bearing on how I chose to play. So what is it that you stand to lose?
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 460	Posted - 2016.02.12 03:17:01 - [55] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: So what is it that you stand to lose? More expensive PVE ships due to the swarms of suicide ganking toons that'll be created instantly and very frequently in Hi-Sec (something that I'm considering doing myself if I decide to stick around). No point in grinding for isk as Jenn already explained. I can just use my alts to farm SP for isk if I need it, thus eliminating one of my main interest in the game. Being a mostly PVE player atm , I was on the verge of trying out PVP. But now the one advantage I had is gone and now just about everyone will have max core, support, tank, gunnery, and ships skills from the get go. Not only that but they'll most likely bring pals who bought their way into WoSS the same way so now the PVP option is out. For me this game has gotten much smaller and I spend more time in the forums whining then I do playing the game.
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs 184	Posted - 2016.02.12 03:17:53 - [56] - Quote Nat Silverguard wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Nat Silverguard wrote: legit question, how do you "win" in EVE? what does "winning" mean to you? can you please give an example of "winning" in EVE? thank you. Ignore this guys post. He is a troll and will troll you endlessly of this same question over and over again regardless of the facts you present to him. To the OP, you are correct. This game have been greatly devalued with the addition of this pay2win feature and can no longer be called Eve. This game is now called World of Spaceships, Eve is dead! i'm a troll? lol, look at our post histories and find out who's post are toxic and s2pid. you choose not to answer my questions because you can't. this is not your typical themepark game wherein level and gear determines your success in clearing dungeons and raids. Stop ruining his fun with reasonable statements. _#portDust514 Don't let interactions like this become only a memory. (EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1914	Posted - 2016.02.12 04:00:24 - [57] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: So what is it that you stand to lose? More expensive PVE ships due to the swarms of suicide ganking toons that'll be created instantly and very frequently in Hi-Sec (something that I'm considering doing myself if I decide to stick around). Gank alts were already trivial to make. I'd be very interested to see if there was anything resembling an increase in ganks, especially with the latest incoming EHP buff for ships without DCs. Daniela Doran wrote: No point in grinding for isk as Jenn already explained. I can just use my alts to farm SP for isk if I need it, thus eliminating one of my main interest in the game. That's both Jenn and your choice to decide. If you chose to do the same and make your past training an isk source that's your choice. Those of us that aren't haven't trivialized any need for isk. Daniela Doran wrote: Being a mostly PVE player atm , I was on the verge of trying out PVP. But now the one advantage I had is gone and now just about everyone will have max core, support, tank, gunnery, and ships skills from the get go. Not only that but they'll most likely bring pals who bought their way into WoSS the same way so now the PVP option is out. For me this game has gotten much smaller and I spend more time in the forums whining then I do playing the game. That just sounds like typical excuse making. The same old "I'll PvP once I have 'x' SP" we've heard so much before. Yet others have done a great deal with less SP against those that have. And yet your complaint is about having an even playing field. Lastly all of that is due to your choice in making it so. If you want isk to matter don't sell SP, if you want to PvP go do it and get good enough to not need the skill advantage, if you want to not spend more time on the forums than in game log on and play. Everything is within your power to resolve. SP trading took none of what you mentioned from you.
Hairtrigger Caldari Provisions Caldari State 44	Posted - 2016.02.12 07:02:51 - [58] - Quote well, suppose the time has come not really played for a few years now, but kept my skills training just in case i was gonna come back strong. well, after 12+ yrs of none stop subs and 220m+ sp this is the final nail in the coffin for me, subs are getin stopped. shall not be coming back untill that F&^king tool hilmar is sacked and they employ real developers again. p,s, and yes you can have all my 50bil in isk and hundred plus fitted ships-if you can find me to ask, good luck!!
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 460	Posted - 2016.02.12 07:26:39 - [59] - Quote Hairtrigger wrote: well, suppose the time has come not really played for a few years now, but kept my skills training just in case i was gonna come back strong. well, after 12+ yrs of none stop subs and 220m+ sp this is the final nail in the coffin for me, subs are getin stopped. shall not be coming back untill that F&^king tool hilmar is sacked and they employ real developers again. p,s, and yes you can have all my 50bil in isk and hundred plus fitted ships-if you can find me to ask, good luck!! You won't be the only one leaving this game soon. My 12 accounts will soon be canceled when resub time come rolling around again. Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected??
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 124	Posted - 2016.02.12 07:36:56 - [60] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Taking advantage of free candy isn't greed, it's taking advantage of free candy. you'd have had to be stupid to not cash in. And failing to do so would have put me at a competitive disadvantage. The person who choose to not cash in is now at a disadvantage to me, I can lose Machariels in DED 10/10s twice a day for the next 30 days without feeling any pain where as the person who could have and didn't didn't do what I did loses one Mach and feels the pain instantly. Just using that as an exmaple, I don't lose ships in PVE. well, looks like your free candy just gave you diabetis. You, yourself wrote that farming alts, had made you log in less. I assume you would only have mentioned that as you yourself sees it as a trend that will repeat. YOU took away the part of EVE that you enjoy, accumulating ISK. So even if "you'd have had to be stupid to not cash in", I am interested to know what adjective would you contribute to someone who slowly kills their own enjoyment of game, because they can't keep their hands of the free candy? And regarding the competition thing, what good is it that you can loose a mach every day, if you slowly loose your interest in playing and don't log in? You just used the cheat codes to EVE, and will pay the consequence over time as you loose interest (Hope it was worth it). As you generally don't compete 1:1 with people in EVE, being "competitive" also does not have too much meaning. You could still do your PVE things, and earn more than you can use, even if someone somewhere else in EVE can loose more machs a day than you. As EVE is that big geographically speaking. You can still get all the ISK you need without using farming alts (Which you, yourself have claimed is easymany times), and killing your interest in the game. In your head SP farming is not greed, as you justify it with it being an competitive necessity, in which I disagree. I understand your point about CCP could have tried to avoid SP farming as it is a lame mechanic(but I also understand they have an interest in keeping the market supplied). But if it cheapens your game for you, don't use it. All the crap about being competative is only in your head, and has very little affect on your day to day gameplay IMO. "I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 124	Posted - 2016.02.12 07:41:08 - [61] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected?? If you are leaving why would you care, what happens to your junk? You are done with the game, good for you. move on. "I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 2382	Posted - 2016.02.12 08:33:17 - [62] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: A 4-day-old character lost his 10-billion Ark yesterday. SP != Skill. SP does not teach you anything, it only enables you to do certain things. Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. It is pay to win. Newbs lose capitals all the time but so do experienced players. losing a ship to a gank does not negate the fact you can pay for SP. given certain alliances have trillions and trillions of isk and can generate trillions more each day EvE will now be about buying skillpoints and whomever can afford the most to max out their doctrine fleets will be the winners. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4683	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:05:17 - [63] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Hairtrigger wrote: well, suppose the time has come not really played for a few years now, but kept my skills training just in case i was gonna come back strong. well, after 12+ yrs of none stop subs and 220m+ sp this is the final nail in the coffin for me, subs are getin stopped. shall not be coming back untill that F&^king tool hilmar is sacked and they employ real developers again. p,s, and yes you can have all my 50bil in isk and hundred plus fitted ships-if you can find me to ask, good luck!! You won't be the only one leaving this game soon. My 12 accounts will soon be canceled when resub time come rolling around again. Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected?? I could use any clothes you no longer want to use; just contract them to this character (no low/null, please). As for the rest, I still own most of the 18 billion inherited from a departing player so really don't need more ships/ISK. You may consider giving some to Mike Azariah for his Magical School Bus project, though. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4683	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:32:58 - [64] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: FAI, rather than make an awesome experience out of having 2 million SP, CCP sells SP to "lift" the "SP barrier" between start and "awesome". What can the do that they haven't already to make 2 million SP more attractive? And how would they do so without making all the same people angry? All the ideas I can think of don't really address the issue without either making the "I earned it and now their giving it away" crowd angry or the "All my SP is now useless" claim we've so often seen (which bears mentioning that this was pretty much just solved). Generalizations make for nice jabs, but what specifically do you think they could offer? A solid PvE career, from Tutorial agents to generating and consuming player-driven PvE content. That would also extend the tenure of PvErs past the two years mark, and would make infinitely happy bittervets who, like me, have been playing PvE for years in hopes that CCP will admit that EVE is a PvE game with some PvP in it and so keeping PvE in its godawful state is detrimental to everyone. What can do a player who is new, doesn't knows how to play and is alone? PvE. In PvE his chances of being ROTFLstomped by veterans are slimmer than anywhere else. In PvE his chances to suffer a catstrophic loss are slimmer than anywhere else. In PvE his progression onto new ships and modules is more sustainable and enjoyable than anywhere else. Instead of that, CCP forces players to meet a series of random choices and succeed in each one. Pick the right content. Meet the right people at the right time and right place. Pick those right people and not the wrong ones. Be the right person to fit with them. And be lucky to never enemy the Goons. CCP should be brave and admit that it is THEIR responsibility to ensure that the game is worthy to EVERYONE and not just to the lucky few who make all the right choices. So, again, what can do CCP so having 2 million SP is a enjoyable experience? Put themselves in the shoes of a player who did everything PvP wrong and still wants to play the game. What's left for him to try? What experiences are open to him? And how good or bad are those experiences? WHY are they so bad? And WHAT can be done to improve them? Hint: selling SP so they can lose more expensive ships sooner is NOT an answer. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2431	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:39:15 - [65] - Quote INB4 Indahmawar's agenda, damn missed it a 2mil sp player hasnt experienced everything in eve so your agenda is only focussed on your own wants from the game "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7275	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:44:06 - [66] - Quote SP trading is not a big deal. Most of the people doing it will be vets who know enough about the game to know what skills to trade for. A rank noob would not know where to start unless they were already interested enough in the game to find a guide (written by a vet). So everybody should take this advice. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4685	Posted - 2016.02.12 09:55:03 - [67] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: INB4 Indahmawar's agenda, damn missed it a 2mil sp player hasnt experienced everything in eve so your agenda is only focussed on your own wants from the game Now take a breath and read again. A 2m SP PvEr is more proficent and succesful in his trade than a 2m SP PvPr, but a 2m SP PvEr haves far less chances to become a long term player than a 2m SP PvPr. As the game is rigged now, a 2m SP PvEr is having a lot of fun learning to lose at EVE. What he needs is not easier access to PvP; what he needs is a chance to win in EVE by playing his way. A open road of player driven content instead of a dead end of neglected and berated CCP driven content. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2431	Posted - 2016.02.12 10:05:20 - [68] - Quote what do you define as winning at eve? at 2mil sp you are not even scratching the surface of eve, you are only limited in eve by your fear of curiosity, there is so much pve in eve that a 2mil sp player has no chance of experiencing at that level "progression + curiosity + imagination", your agenda is basically only pointing towards people who dont want to move from the same system and just be provided with a lifetime of variable content. 2mil sp players havent even tried, lowsec pve, null pve, wormhole pve, its not about pvp its about a players lack of willingness to be adventurous and find content themselves "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 461	Posted - 2016.02.12 10:12:05 - [69] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Hairtrigger wrote: well, suppose the time has come not really played for a few years now, but kept my skills training just in case i was gonna come back strong. well, after 12+ yrs of none stop subs and 220m+ sp this is the final nail in the coffin for me, subs are getin stopped. shall not be coming back untill that F&^king tool hilmar is sacked and they employ real developers again. p,s, and yes you can have all my 50bil in isk and hundred plus fitted ships-if you can find me to ask, good luck!! You won't be the only one leaving this game soon. My 12 accounts will soon be canceled when resub time come rolling around again. Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected?? I could use any clothes you no longer want to use; just contract them to this character (no low/null, please). As for the rest, I still own most of the 18 billion inherited from a departing player so really don't need more ships/ISK. You may consider giving some to Mike Azariah for his Magical School Bus project, though. I thought you were leaving as well, so you've decided to stay? If so, why I ask why?
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 461	Posted - 2016.02.12 10:17:41 - [70] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: what do you define as winning at eve? at 2mil sp you are not even scratching the surface of eve, you are only limited in eve by your fear of curiosity, there is so much pve in eve that a 2mil sp player has no chance of experiencing at that level "progression + curiosity + imagination", your agenda is basically only pointing towards people who dont want to move from the same system and just be provided with a lifetime of variable content. 2mil sp players havent even tried, lowsec pve, null pve, wormhole pve, its not about pvp its about a players lack of willingness to be adventurous and find content themselves Hmm, I'll put this theory of yours to the test since it's no use PVEing anymore and I do have a good chunk of gametime left. If you were attempting to roam in a Hyperion or Pest (with Links), where would you start?

Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2431	Posted - 2016.02.12 10:42:14 - [71] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Lan Wang wrote: what do you define as winning at eve? at 2mil sp you are not even scratching the surface of eve, you are only limited in eve by your fear of curiosity, there is so much pve in eve that a 2mil sp player has no chance of experiencing at that level "progression + curiosity + imagination", your agenda is basically only pointing towards people who dont want to move from the same system and just be provided with a lifetime of variable content. 2mil sp players havent even tried, lowsec pve, null pve, wormhole pve, its not about pvp its about a players lack of willingness to be adventurous and find content themselves Hmm, I'll put this theory of yours to the test since it's no use PVEing anymore and I do have a good chunk of gametime left. If you were attempting to roam in a Hyperion or Pest (with Links), where would you start? the nearest pirate lowsec system "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 287	Posted - 2016.02.12 10:45:17 - [72] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: More expensive PVE ships due to the swarms of suicide ganking toons that'll be created instantly and very frequently in Hi-Sec (something that I'm considering doing myself if I decide to stick around). this is a fine tinfoil hat right here. fyi, i have a 2nd main that logi occasionally with TDF, nobody from that group is worried about this. :) a gank cata can be trained within days, lol. Daniela Doran wrote: No point in grinding for isk as Jenn already explained. I can just use my alts to farm SP for isk if I need it, thus eliminating one of my main interest in the game. what do you need isk for in the 1st place? if you don't spend those isk, earning them is useless. try to explode some ships up, grinding isk will matter once again and i will actually support you farming SP to sell for isks if you maintain your liquid isk to 100m because of welping ships. it would actually be good for the economy and the game overall. Daniela Doran wrote: Being a mostly PVE player atm , I was on the verge of trying out PVP. But now the one advantage I had is gone and now just about everyone will have max core, support, tank, gunnery, and ships skills from the get go. Not only that but they'll most likely bring pals who bought their way into WoSS the same way so now the PVP option is out. For me this game has gotten much smaller and I spend more time in the forums whining then I do playing the game. this is your problem, this is a very erroneous assumption, even if you have all core/gunnery/drone/missile/navigation/tanking skills 5, you will never be ready to PVP unless you start dying. only practice, intuition, knowing your engagement profile (i suck at this), experience, and luck wins 1v1. and for your info, 1v1 is mostly fought with frigs/dessie/cruisers. i actually prefer small gang, plex fighting, and drawn out war of attrition. Daniela Doran wrote: For me this game has gotten much smaller and I spend more time in the forums whining then I do playing the game. apparently you're very good at it. :) Just Add Water
Indranil Roy Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 0	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:42:30 - [73] - Quote The advantage a Vet has over a newbie = Money+(SP)+ Experience. The gap of money could be reduced by buying plex. The gap of Time(SP) can now be reduced by buying and using Injector. Experience can never be reduced. A 2 year old character will know more than a 2 week character. The people who are against this, are you guys annoyed that anyone can gain the SP in a day that you painfully amassed over such a long time? Let me try to satiate a bit We live in a time of instant gratification. Do you guys know that Clash of Clans makes more money than Blizzard? They earn that much because if a guy spends 100K on the game, he will have max everything, which indirectly helps in developing the game to be better. It caters to both the cash rich and casual players. EVE is shifting towards a combination of cash rich and casual players to cater the generation who are spoilt by instant gratification, who have no problems burning 100-200 dollars on the game off the bat. Maybe 1000's of Vets will leave this game because of this change, but if 10000's of New players join and experience this breathtaking game, then I am all up for the change. If a newbro spends 10k to get 50 million SP, how does it affect you in any way, physically, mentally, gameplay wise?. I will be happy that CCP gets a whale and can only hope they invest in the development of the game. Cheers and fly safe you guys.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4686	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:46:45 - [74] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Hairtrigger wrote: well, suppose the time has come not really played for a few years now, but kept my skills training just in case i was gonna come back strong. well, after 12+ yrs of none stop subs and 220m+ sp this is the final nail in the coffin for me, subs are getin stopped. shall not be coming back untill that F&^king tool hilmar is sacked and they employ real developers again. p,s, and yes you can have all my 50bil in isk and hundred plus fitted ships-if you can find me to ask, good luck!! You won't be the only one leaving this game soon. My 12 accounts will soon be canceled when resub time come rolling around again. Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected?? I could use any clothes you no longer want to use; just contract them to this character (no low/null, please). As for the rest, I still own most of the 18 billion inherited from a departing player so really don't need more ships/ISK. You may consider giving some to Mike Azariah for his Magical School Bus project, though. I thought you were leaving as well, so you've decided to stay? If so, why I ask why? No, I'm not leaving, why did you think so? As long as I have fun flogging CCP on GD, chit-chatting at OOPE and doing the same old stuff in the server, I will keep subbed. When I'm tired, I'll take another break and probably will give a try -eventually- to E:D. Then it will depend... E:D may grow in my heart or don't. But it's unlikely until they get avatars and interiors there; have been a goddamned spaceship for 7 years in EVE so E:D is not very appealing in that sense. In the meanwhile, I've got 3 new female toons with little clothing and could use anything... putting gifted clothes to use can be fun in itself. And all in al, this is EVE: either you make your own fun, or you're TARFU. (An in the event that you're making your fun, pray so CCP will keep their dirty hands away from it) CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5035	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:59:57 - [75] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: When I'm tired I can borrow all this ISK anytime you feel tired by it. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4686	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:05:31 - [76] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: When I'm tired I can borrow all this ISK anytime you feel tired by it. I suspect you would spend it... -¼-¼ CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Max Fubarticus The Scope Gallente Federation 91	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:08:00 - [77] - Quote Linus Gorp wrote: A 4-day-old character lost his 10-billion Ark yesterday. SP != Skill. SP does not teach you anything, it only enables you to do certain things. Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. Exactly! Eve is full of high SP toons that are unable to go from gate to gate without entering fail cascade mode. The key word here is "enables". Opportunity does not guarantee success. I say... let them keep "shooting up", so we can shoot them down. Max Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5035	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:09:57 - [78] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: When I'm tired I can borrow all this ISK anytime you feel tired by it. I suspect you would spend it... -¼-¼ Well, I would rather see it as an investition. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4686	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:21:30 - [79] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: When I'm tired I can borrow all this ISK anytime you feel tired by it. I suspect you would spend it... -¼-¼ Well, I would rather see it as an investition. Giving me clothes is also an investment; it improves the overall beauty of the game, one character at a time. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Archangel Raphael Army Of Angels Army Of Angels Alliance 1	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:28:58 - [80] - Quote i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs. tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer, when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase. for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve. the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing. Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great. The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion. having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve, you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve.

Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2433	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:43:33 - [81] - Quote Archangel Raphael wrote: i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs. tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer, when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase. for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve. the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing. Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great. The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion. having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve, you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve. You had a good run mate, 10 years in a game is quite an achievement and you will always hold that achievement as not alot of people can say they got 10 years of entertainment from 1 game, hats off to you sir "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5036	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:45:20 - [82] - Quote Be an eternal noob. Forget what EVE has tought you. Make your own little war. You dont need to wait on bandwagon to hop in. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 462	Posted - 2016.02.12 12:56:34 - [83] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Nat Silverguard wrote: For me this game has gotten much smaller and I spend more time in the forums whining then I do playing the game. apparently you're very good at it. :) Don't worry, my whining period is coming to an end. I'm just stuck on what to do now atm. Was gonna just give up and quit but it'll be such a waste to biomass all my alts that now have between 32-40 mill in actual trained SP. The Redeemers and Panthers SP I was training for can get siphoned and those 3 chars can start farming SP. Also I don't wanna quit before trying out the stockpiles of PVP fitted ships that just sat around in Dodi collecting spacedust. So I'm gonna try something new and die a lot from now on and see if I can endure this change.
Archangel Raphael Army Of Angels Army Of Angels Alliance 2	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:04:33 - [84] - Quote having the ability to buy sp's might sound great to some people, and yes for me at 10yrs I cannot ever go back and unlearn things, but one thing I think people do not take into account is how much low skill point players have contributed to eve over the years. many players and corps and even alliances, were to become great entities through the fact that they couldn't compete on skill points, experience or isk, it just made them think a little more outside the box and try something novel and different. And it is examples of this that made eve a real sandbox. Now, a new player can start eve today, buy as many sp's as they can afford , join some corp/alliance, x up to fleet, lose their ship and learn what from it ? I need to buy more skill points. And yes for me that makes no difference anymore, but for those just starting out, I really believe ccp has actually taken away from you something unique
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 463	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:08:10 - [85] - Quote Archangel Raphael wrote: i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs. tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer, when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase. for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve. the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing. Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great. The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion. having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve, you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve. True, when I was a noob I remember being in awe everytime I saw a Battleship and was completely flabbergasted at the sight of a Marauder. These experiences is what kept me motivated with vigilant training so that I too can fly those space wonders and now that experience is lost. The new crop of players that are buying their way into Eve won't ever experience that feeling of wanting to catch up and won't be as dedicated to Eve as the players who made the journey the old traditional Eve way.
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 805	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:31:25 - [86] - Quote sero Hita wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Now what should I do with the 180+ Bill isk worth of junk I've collected?? If you are leaving why would you care, what happens to your junk? You are done with the game, good for you. move on. Eh, find the newest kid in your corp/alliance/area and contract it to them for like 777 ISK with the words, "Lady Luck's Suppa' Secret Stash of Junk," in the description or something. Might put a smile on someone's face, you never know. "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13591	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:37:03 - [87] - Quote Indranil Roy wrote: The advantage a Vet has over a newbie = Money+(SP)+ Experience. The gap of money could be reduced by buying plex. The gap of Time(SP) can now be reduced by buying and using Injector. Experience can never be reduced. A 2 year old character will know more than a 2 week character. The people who are against this, are you guys annoyed that anyone can gain the SP in a day that you painfully amassed over such a long time? Let me try to satiate a bit We live in a time of instant gratification. Do you guys know that Clash of Clans makes more money than Blizzard? They earn that much because if a guy spends 100K on the game, he will have max everything, which indirectly helps in developing the game to be better. It caters to both the cash rich and casual players. EVE is shifting towards a combination of cash rich and casual players to cater the generation who are spoilt by instant gratification, who have no problems burning 100-200 dollars on the game off the bat. Maybe 1000's of Vets will leave this game because of this change, but if 10000's of New players join and experience this breathtaking game, then I am all up for the change. If a newbro spends 10k to get 50 million SP, how does it affect you in any way, physically, mentally, gameplay wise?. I will be happy that CCP gets a whale and can only hope they invest in the development of the game. Cheers and fly safe you guys. Unfortunately this is the kind of naive and sell out thinking that CCP is displaying now, and displayed back during Incarna/monoclegate. It's the thinking that lead them in the direction of making the game "easy to learn, hard to master" aka "coddle the new player and forget that it is challenge that creates emotional bonds, not comfort , that gets people to play and stay in a game like this". The problem with all this is (#1) it doesn't work (things aimed at gaining and keeping new players not only repulses the kinds of people who would play EVE long term, it ticks off many existing players) and (#2) CCP can't seem to learn the lesson of #1. #2 is actually pretty awful. The 1st time CCP experienced a serious problem was because they neglected EVE and treated it as a cash source for expanding both the game (Incarna) and the company (DUST/WoD). The soon learned that this was a mistake. So about 6 years later they try to redo elements of the same mistake (with SP trading, an obvious cash grab) after having borrowed a boatload of money for an iffy as hell attempt to expand the company (the VR only new game 'Valkyrie'). I'm not leaving. Leaving doesn't teach CCP anything because once you are out of sight, you are out of their minds. Staying and showing them why their short sighted schemes were shortsighted is the way to go. That's what happened with Incarna, it happened with dominion (when we showed CCP that , no, a whole bunch of hit point heavy structures don't make for 'small gang objectives', as we are demonstrating right now with Aegis), it happened with FW rewards (remember those guys who pulled a half trillion out of it in a couple days?) and so forth.
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs 187	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:44:51 - [88] - Quote You know, I keep reading people saying that anyone brought into the game via Skill Injectors is some kind of degenerate that we don't want. Having done the grind myself, and actually enjoyed the grind, I also don't begrudge people the ability to escape the grind and quickly enable themselves to fly alongside the friends who invited them to the game. Think about it this way: You're unfamiliar with EVE Online, but then a friend links you a video of some of his friends going on a roam with Vagabonds. You want to get in the game and fly those ships with your friends because you liked what you saw. However, as soon as you accept that Buddy Invite you're faced with the fact that it'll take 2 months of grind at least to be able to fly that ship with your friends. Then you're told about Skill Injectors. Your friend tosses you one with some SP he didn't want anymore, and you use that as a start to get into earning ISK to use to buy more of them. You now have the potential to join that Vagabond pack the next time they go out, and you can learn as you fly just like you would have been doing with Rifters. Yeah, it's more expensive and your mistakes will cost you more, but at the end of the day EVE is about flying with people you know at its core. Would you rather do the solo grind up through Frigates and Level 1 mission grinding, or hop right in with your friends and take bigger risks for the potential of better reward? Just because some of the people that might come into the game now have a different value system than us doesn't make their potential to benefit our community any less real. _#portDust514 Don't let interactions like this become only a memory. (EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
Adrian Maifeld Nihilistic Disorder Just A Game. 44	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:49:05 - [89] - Quote Gedrick frogue wrote: Hi All I'm probably going to get a fair bit of grief about this but I want to know why CCP has devalued Eve and by devalued I am referring to SP trading Eve's greatest strength has always been that you had to earn, learn and grow within Eve, you learnt how skills, ship's, fittings, weapons, industry et all worked You did this by training skills and working things out with corp buddies, you also valued your skill points, after all some skills could take you 30 or more days to train for So now you can pay some Isk and buy an injector and jump up your skills, you have lost more than what you think you have gained You have lost that value, teamwork and understanding element that you had when before this "feature" you had respec'ed your attributes, stuffed implants into your head asked your buddies how to get towards your goal and train, all these things that made Eve, Eve OK i know this probably isn't the end of Eve but this IS a fundamental shift in how and what Eve is, Eve has just been drastically changed by CCP and for what? Simple answer is money, After all Eve is CCP's only viable money making product and is getting as much as it can out of our wallets, well they have to pay for the development of new products but devaluing Eve to do so doesn't make sense WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not Yup, i know that a lot of people will disagree with me and they will argue that SP trading is the best thing since sliced bread and that others will be in the opposite camp I guess time will tell and we'll all find out if Eve survives or dies Cheers Ged Jesus...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5037	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:51:23 - [90] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: I'm not leaving. Leaving doesn't teach CCP anything because once you are out of sight, you are out of their minds. Staying and showing them why their short sighted schemes were shortsighted is the way to go. They are ignoring players like you, specifically money is running the business. You will diminish their faith in abstract investment return curves by unsubscribing. You cant teach a cow how to avoid the electric fence by keeping her off it, rather you push her in the direction of it. But, cows can have more learning abilities than people who are greedy. Until then, everything what have been said and posted will be lost in the many figures of accounting books. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13591	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:52:47 - [91] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Archangel Raphael wrote: i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs. tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer, when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase. for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve. the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing. Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great. The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion. having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve, you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve. True, when I was a noob I remember being in awe everytime I saw a Battleship and was completely flabbergasted at the sight of a Marauder. These experiences is what kept me motivated with vigilant training so that I too can fly those space wonders and now that experience is lost. The new crop of players that are buying their way into Eve won't ever experience that feeling of wanting to catch up and won't be as dedicated to Eve as the players who made the journey the old traditional Eve way. Exactly so. As CCP makes EVE 'easier and more accessible' (and SP trading is an example, it streamlines something that was a more difficult process in the Character Bazaar) they have inadvertently killed many of the things that made the eve experience a valuable way to pass time. Like all the pop ups and warnings and the in-game mission guiding system that keep players from making mistakes. Those mistakes taught us something, like "ok, don't jump into a low sec system with a hauler full of mission objectives", the minor amount of pain from those mistakes made us stronger players. In this case, CCP is killing the value of spending time. Sure, we occasionally got a 'whale' type who would come in, brave the Char Bazaar and buy character and a bunch of isk and end up being an 'ALOD' on some website. But very few people did that, where as now many many more people have access to that functionality. The most likely outcome is that it will accelerate the rate in which new players leave as they find the game they spent a couple hundred bucks on to 'catch up' has nothing to catch up to and is basically devoid of content (in the sense they, as regular mmo players expect it to).
MidnightWyvern Night Theifs 187	Posted - 2016.02.12 13:58:23 - [92] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Archangel Raphael wrote: i will be 10 yrs old in april and my alt will be in September, i have always paid with real money . i too have now cancelled my subs. tbh like many others of my age i havnt really played eve properly for probably 3-4 yrs, maybe even longer, when i started in 06 i think eve was in its golden age as regards to changes within the game and event created from within the playerbase. for me eve took a nose dive once the real great wars stopped happening and the blue donut prevailed, from then on i lost interest in 0.0 politics and that took some of the drama of playing eve. the feeling of anxiety and thrill that you got by doing some things in eve for the first time, like venturing into 0.0 (before warp to 0) , knowing you were new, had very little experience and skill points are some of the things i have never forgot, it was the adrenaline of being new that kept me playing. Skill points never came into it, it was all about trying to achieve something with what you had then that made this game great. The problem is as you get older in eve you learn a lot of what there is to know and you lose those raw feelings of emotion. having the ability to create a character and max him/her out on day one has removed from the game for those who are truly new a magical essence from eve, you will never really ever experience being a noob, and for me that period was my best time in eve. True, when I was a noob I remember being in awe everytime I saw a Battleship and was completely flabbergasted at the sight of a Marauder. These experiences is what kept me motivated with vigilant training so that I too can fly those space wonders and now that experience is lost. The new crop of players that are buying their way into Eve won't ever experience that feeling of wanting to catch up and won't be as dedicated to Eve as the players who made the journey the old traditional Eve way. Exactly so. As CCP makes EVE 'easier and more accessible' (and SP trading is an example, it streamlines something that was a more difficult process in the Character Bazaar) they have inadvertently killed many of the things that made the eve experience a valuable way to pass time. Like all the pop ups and warnings and the in-game mission guiding system that keep players from making mistakes. Those mistakes taught us something, like "ok, don't jump into a low sec system with a hauler full of mission objectives", the minor amount of pain from those mistakes made us stronger players. In this case, CCP is killing the value of spending time. Sure, we occasionally got a 'whale' type who would come in, brave the Char Bazaar and buy character and a bunch of isk and end up being an 'ALOD' on some website. But very few people did that, where as now many many more people have access to that functionality. The most likely outcome is that it will accelerate the rate in which new players leave as they find the game they spent a couple hundred bucks on to 'catch up' has nothing to catch up to and is basically devoid of content (in the sense they, as regular mmo players expect it to). They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game". CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone. This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it. _#portDust514 Don't let interactions like this become only a memory. (EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13593	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:00:18 - [93] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: You know, I keep reading people saying that anyone brought into the game via Skill Injectors is some kind of degenerate that we don't want. Having done the grind myself, and actually enjoyed the grind, I also don't begrudge people the ability to escape the grind and quickly enable themselves to fly alongside the friends who invited them to the game. Think about it this way: You're unfamiliar with EVE Online, but then a friend links you a video of some of his friends going on a roam with Vagabonds. You want to get in the game and fly those ships with your friends because you liked what you saw. However, as soon as you accept that Buddy Invite you're faced with the fact that it'll take 2 months of grind at least to be able to fly that ship with your friends. Then you're told about Skill Injectors. Your friend tosses you one with some SP he didn't want anymore, and you use that as a start to get into earning ISK to use to buy more of them. You now have the potential to join that Vagabond pack the next time they go out, and you can learn as you fly just like you would have been doing with Rifters. Yeah, it's more expensive and your mistakes will cost you more, but at the end of the day EVE is about flying with people you know at its core. Would you rather do the solo grind up through Frigates and Level 1 mission grinding, or hop right in with your friends and take bigger risks for the potential of better reward? Just because some of the people that might come into the game now have a different value system than us doesn't make their potential to benefit our community any less real. Value system has nothing to do with it. Of course most people would have rather started the game with a free titan , 100 mil skill points and a trillion isk in the wallet. That's how people are. but what makes a game valuable is challenge , a little bit of sacrifice, and a sense of accomplishment. The real problem here is that the people supporting SP trading are the kinds of folks who don't appreciate the value of their previous experiences. They are like real life modern day parents who "want their kids to have everything they didn't when they were kids" who go on to create overly coddled unfeeling amoral monsters who are only that way because they were over-indulged. The intention is well meaning, the result is always a disaster.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13593	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:03:11 - [94] - Quote MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game". CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone. This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it. That sounds an awful lot like gambling. Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2436	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:06:55 - [95] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game". CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone. This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it. That sounds an awful lot like gambling. Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb. Was it a sure thing? subs dropping isnt really a sure thing, constant complaining from pretty much everyone for change and the data they get about why people stopped playing maybe led to this, this isnt a big deal, its only a big deal if you make it a big deal "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5038	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:12:11 - [96] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: They're not the ones we want to stick around anyway. EVE has never really been a game for people who want an "end-game". CCP probably realized years back that EVE Online might not ever break one million active subscribers. In a world of themepark MMOs EVE is the only true sandbox, and a sandbox doesn't appeal to everyone. This feature will bring the people you mentioned, but it will also bring in people that weren't looking for a sandbox but then fell in love with it once they experienced it. That sounds an awful lot like gambling. Someone should tell CCP that gambling with something that was a sure thing before you started gambling with it is dumb. Was it a sure thing? subs dropping isnt really a sure thing, constant complaining from pretty much everyone for change and the data they get about why people stopped playing maybe led to this, this isnt a big deal, its only a big deal if you make it a big deal Reddit doesnt need EVE subscription. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 464	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:12:54 - [97] - Quote All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me.
Amber Kurvora 234	Posted - 2016.02.12 14:19:13 - [98] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. There's only one response for this...
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1916	Posted - 2016.02.12 19:41:32 - [99] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Reddit doesnt need EVE subscription. Which doesn't negate the number of them that are subscribed.
Lasisha Mishi Touch of Death 3	Posted - 2016.02.12 19:49:57 - [100] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. what happened to you quitting?

Chameleopardis Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.02.12 19:54:13 - [101] - Quote Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else. Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares?
Aaaarrgg The Conference Elite CODE. 13	Posted - 2016.02.13 00:41:43 - [102] - Quote Chameleopardis wrote: Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else. Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares? i cared would try to explain it but from reading the forums there are a lot who are unable to understand what's wrong with it, im going to guess you may be another even having to explain what is wrong with this shows how far EVE has moved away from its origins this makes me sad I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :(
Alea Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 211	Posted - 2016.02.13 01:05:57 - [103] - Quote Chameleopardis wrote: Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else. Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares? Me and others who put in the work to get where we are today, HTFU is no longer in the Eve vocabulary. Whomever is making the last couple years decisions on what coding changes are to be implemented in this game must hate Eve with all their being.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2016.02.13 01:17:28 - [104] - Quote Lasisha Mishi wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: All I know for certain is that I'm not spending another cent of my own money on this game. If I can stomach this wretched change then from now on I'm converting my alts into SP farming toons and let the scrubs pay the sub fee for me. what happened to you quitting? Would've already happened if I haven't already paid for my accounts 1 week before that 2nd Devblog got posted. And it will happen eventually anyway sooner or later, so be patient dear.
Aiwha Infinite Point Northern Army 981	Posted - 2016.02.13 01:46:35 - [105] - Quote If you managed to farm more SP than it costs to plex the account, I would be amazed. Sanity is fun leaving the body. Aiwha for CSM XI
Dyllan Ma'tar Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 11	Posted - 2016.02.13 01:49:21 - [106] - Quote Chameleopardis wrote: Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else. Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares? The people that have nothing to make them feel superior to others outside of waiting for a timer to run down. > Do not stubbornly rebel against the ways of the world. Do not mindlessly follow the ways of the world. Think lightly of yourself and think deeply of the world. You can abandon your own body, but never let go of your honor. Miyamoto Musashi, Dokkodo
Zirashi State Protectorate Caldari State 19	Posted - 2016.02.13 02:12:11 - [107] - Quote Gedrick frogue wrote: WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not FYI if anyone was wondering, as a WoW player myself, from this line it is clear that OP doesn't play WoW, attempts to speak authoritatively on subjects he knows absolutely nothing about, and/or will outright lie to make his "point." The credibility of this individual is zero and further discussions is an exercise in futility.
Bad Messenger Rehabilitation Clinic 866	Posted - 2016.02.13 02:53:24 - [108] - Quote Zirashi wrote: Gedrick frogue wrote: WoW is pay to win, you can buy a maxed out character for $40 and unfortunately Eve is now on the same path, some might say that this is the beginning of the eve for Eve, i for one hope not FYI if anyone was wondering, as a WoW player myself, from this line it is clear that OP doesn't play WoW, attempts to speak authoritatively on subjects he knows absolutely nothing about, and/or will outright lie to make his "point." The credibility of this individual is zero and further discussions is an exercise in futility. beginning of the end? no it is end of the end.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1918	Posted - 2016.02.13 02:58:42 - [109] - Quote Bad Messenger wrote: beginning of the end? no it is end of the end. And yet nothing has ended. Everything continues just as it did.
stg slate Caldari Provisions Caldari State 39	Posted - 2016.02.13 03:21:38 - [110] - Quote Aaaarrgg wrote: I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( It is a new age, in the past you had to buy GTC to sell to buy a high-end character from the bazaar, and you could do that on day 1 if you wanted. A wallet full of cash could buy you a titan pilot and enough ISK to buy one 2 years ago. Today you buy plex and injectors, but its the same damned thing as far as 'hardness' goes. It has always been as hard as opening a wallet SINCE FOREVER.

Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9848	Posted - 2016.02.13 03:31:28 - [111] - Quote Aaaarrgg wrote: Chameleopardis wrote: Skill training is just waiting a timer to be finished. Nothing else. Someone waited for 11 years. Someone did not. Who cares? i cared would try to explain it but from reading the forums there are a lot who are unable to understand what's wrong with it, im going to guess you may be another even having to explain what is wrong with this shows how far EVE has moved away from its origins this makes me sad I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( Based on your inability to grasp the basic rules of capitalization and punctuation, I'd guess you are far to young to have played this game long enough to care about anything in it. You were probably six when EVE was last a harsh, cold universe. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Diametrix Black Rise Goods and Services 33	Posted - 2016.02.13 03:42:21 - [112] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: No, the new skill trading is not "pay to win". And yes, yes it did Devalue some very important things in the game. In odd ways too, last night was the 1st ngiht in a long time I didn't play EVE for at least an hour. I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. And I will be able to do it again and again and again because of my +5 learning implant SP farming toons. This lessens the need to fly around in space actually doing things to get isk, which lessens the excitement of getting a good spawn or good drop or finding a good complex or exploration site. Even if the demand goes down, it won't go down far. Just like there is always a new demand for PLEX (and other things like SOE items , which is why even after all the SOE mission farming people are still doing it), there will always be players who want an SP short cut. Problem is that CCP just gave some of us even less reason to actually play the game. Before this change, the "SP farmers" were the guys who could stand to deal with the horribly inefficent Char Baazar. Now's it's, well everyone. Jenna (and everyone else that agrees that 'Devaluing EVE = devaluing YOUR time), It's not about YOU! It's about all of us. The very first response in this thread got it right - this is a value re-distribution system. You sold a ton of alt SP for a ton of isk and then didn't play because EVE (temporarily) lost some of that vaule-added thrill. Do you have any idea how much of that 'value-added thrill' you've just 'given/sold' to many other players? Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to. Adapt, Over Come, HTFU o7
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2016.02.13 03:57:46 - [113] - Quote Aiwha wrote: If you managed to farm more SP than it costs to plex the account, I would be amazed. I generate 2 Mill SP on each of my alts every month. I can buy an extractor for 260 mill isk from buy orders and sell them for 680 Mill isk in Dodi. So you spend 1.04 bill isk on 4 extractors and gain 2.7 bill isk from selling the injectors which comes out to a 1,680,000,000.00 isk in profit. Subtract 1,260,000,000.00 for a plex and that still leaves a 420 mill isk in pure profit, lol. The only downside to this is no further char development for those chars. But they can already have right at 40 Mill SP and can fly all turret Marauders at V so I could just leave them right there and play them for free.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 148	Posted - 2016.02.13 10:06:50 - [114] - Quote Diametrix wrote: Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to. Adapt, Over Come, HTFU o7 How is skill trading distribution of wealth? The old, wealthy players earn a ton of ISK by selling their SP and the space rich got a new gold item for hoarding. The new players will be even poorer because now there is a constant pressure to keep up with wallet warriors and hardcore ISK grinders. If i were a newbie in EVE right now, i would probably quit very fast because skill trading looks a lot like P2W. I know its not P2W, but its definitly P2Progress and i don't think truly new playes will see the difference. EVE already has a reputation of being a very expensive game because of all the "50.000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2443	Posted - 2016.02.13 10:17:57 - [115] - Quote Algarion Getz wrote: Diametrix wrote: Bitter vets need to chill. EVE is evolving. Let it change. Spreading the wealth is a blessing because there are more of us to spread it to. Adapt, Over Come, HTFU o7 How is skill trading distribution of wealth? The old, wealthy players earn a ton of ISK by selling their SP and the space rich got a new gold item for hoarding. The new players will be even poorer because now there is a constant pressure to keep up with wallet warriors and hardcore ISK grinders. If i were a newbie in EVE right now, i would probably quit very fast because skill trading looks a lot like P2W. I know its not P2W, but its definitly P2Progress and i don't think truly new playes will see the difference. EVE already has a reputation of being a very expensive game because of all the "50.000$ lost in 1 battle" news articles. when i was a newbie the character bazaar was the only option and something i could aim towards, skill trading seems a bit easier than tryin to find 16bil for a char (at the time) "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Gliese Casserres Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 39	Posted - 2016.02.13 10:37:33 - [116] - Quote Training my first and second racial cruiser to 5 felt like an accomplishment. When I sucked the mining- and rock related skills out of my toons and got third racial cruiser with the free SP it didn't offer any similar satisfaction - It was too easy. Eve used to be hunt for isk and wait for sp and content, now it feels like the sole purpose is to hunt for isk.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 184	Posted - 2016.02.13 12:42:30 - [117] - Quote This will be the event that put the last nail in Eve's coffin. How many other MMOs have followed this same death spiral? First player subs start falling until they are worryingly low, next the Devs misread these falling subs as a sign they need to stop what they're doing and chase new players. Following this goal they introduce a mechanic which has no place in that MMO, existing players hate the change, new players don't remain subbed like the old ones did now that the experience has been cheapened, and the end result is a further fall in subs. Either the game closes at this point because they've successfully driven out everyone or they are forced to continue taking more drastic and uncharacteristic actions. CCP should look back to see how the game was when it was growing it's fastest, replicate that and you can expect the same results. I have long thought that the new player experience could be reworked into a much more welcoming form and that this would have a much larger impact in player numbers than SP trading could ever hope for. NOT the type of rework that CCP has done in the past, eve is complex enough for a walk through tutorial. A case for more AoE in EvE
Bad Messenger Rehabilitation Clinic 866	Posted - 2016.02.13 13:00:39 - [118] - Quote stg slate wrote: Aaaarrgg wrote: I remember EVE online a harsh cold universe, I miss it :( It is a new age, in the past you had to buy GTC to sell to buy a high-end character from the bazaar, and you could do that on day 1 if you wanted. A wallet full of cash could buy you a titan pilot and enough ISK to buy one 2 years ago. Today you buy plex and injectors, but its the same damned thing as far as 'hardness' goes. It has always been as hard as opening a wallet SINCE FOREVER. character from bazaar is different thing. people complain already from off grid boost alts etc.... next mandatory for pvp will be max skilled char because everyone else has those too. and how this will be any good for EVE? also you can not use charachter age to determine his skill level, so once again CCP destroyed one way to get intel about oncoming events.
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2443	Posted - 2016.02.13 13:00:43 - [119] - Quote Gliese Casserres wrote: Training my first and second racial cruiser to 5 felt like an accomplishment. When I sucked the mining- and rock related skills out of my toons and got third racial cruiser with the free SP it didn't offer any similar satisfaction - It was too easy. Eve used to be hunt for isk and wait for sp and content, now it feels like the sole purpose is to hunt for isk. make the sole purpose to hunt for content, just because skills can be bought and sold doesnt mean you have to jump on the band wagon and actually do it, if you feel it has ruined your game then stop doing it, its pretty simple, nobody is forcing you to sell sp thats your own greed taking over. "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Bad Messenger Rehabilitation Clinic 868	Posted - 2016.02.13 13:23:20 - [120] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: no it ever wont be a requirement to have max skills to pvp, who even cares about skills in pvp? it used to be like that , but now when it is possible to everyone have max skills for ship and fit it will be requirement for everyone. You will see.

Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 186	Posted - 2016.02.13 13:44:32 - [121] - Quote Bad Messenger wrote: Lan Wang wrote: no it ever wont be a requirement to have max skills to pvp, who even cares about skills in pvp? it used to be like that , but now when it is possible to everyone have max skills for ship and fit it will be requirement for everyone. You will see. Agreed, eve is a capitalism simulator (with spaceship fighting). If you're not competitive you WILL lose, adapt or die and all that. A case for more AoE in EvE
Gliese Casserres Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate 41	Posted - 2016.02.13 14:52:04 - [122] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Gliese Casserres wrote: Training my first and second racial cruiser to 5 felt like an accomplishment. When I sucked the mining- and rock related skills out of my toons and got third racial cruiser with the free SP it didn't offer any similar satisfaction - It was too easy. Eve used to be hunt for isk and wait for sp and content, now it feels like the sole purpose is to hunt for isk. make the sole purpose to hunt for content, just because skills can be bought and sold doesnt mean you have to jump on the band wagon and actually do it, if you feel it has ruined your game then stop doing it, its pretty simple, nobody is forcing you to sell sp thats your own greed taking over. Not selling, I'm buying, hence the greed. How can one even resist taking a quick route to catch up with doctrines...
Divine Entervention Hunters Elite Krab Republic 815	Posted - 2016.02.13 15:44:06 - [123] - Quote Well it's only been a couple of days and I've only dumped about 20billion isk worth of injectors into my character, but here's my thoughts: nice I feel better. I have more options, more opportunities. I'm playing the game a lot more than I was. My activity level had practically dropped to zero for the last month, but since Tuesday it's spiked back up to where it was when I first started playing. I don't know how long this will last though. Maybe it's the novelty of the new possibilities I'm capable of that's compelling me to play. Maybe it's the confidence I have in my character's lack of core weaknesses. Maybe it's simply me forcing myself to get a return out of the money I've invested. I'm having fun though. EvE has consumed me again, taking the place of Darkest Dungeon and Rocket League. Hopefully it will continue to last, though I know nothing ever does. Journey before Destination and what not, I'll try to enjoy the ride wherever it ends up taking me. Also, just for the record I'm better at everything than all of you and if you would all please stop being incredibly jealous of my superiority, all of us could enjoy ourselves for who we are regardless of your shortcomings in comparison to my greatness.
Khergit Deserters Crom's Angels 4383	Posted - 2016.02.13 16:28:36 - [124] - Quote I just saw something like this in Hek Local: "returning player 75mill combat SP. Looking for decent active pvp corp." [Emphasis added]. How quaint. And kind of sad. Joen: "If everthing is imperfect in this world, love is perfect in its imperfection." Drunken blacksmith: "You're lucky. You believe in your own twaddle." Joen: "Who says I believe it? I just like giving advice." -The Seventh Seal
Dyllan Ma'tar Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 11	Posted - 2016.02.13 18:01:37 - [125] - Quote Algarion Getz wrote: How is skill trading distribution of wealth? Twist ending: sp was the only real wealth you ever had. > Do not stubbornly rebel against the ways of the world. Do not mindlessly follow the ways of the world. Think lightly of yourself and think deeply of the world. You can abandon your own body, but never let go of your honor. Miyamoto Musashi, Dokkodo
Captain Grantkarppe No Laws Apply 40	Posted - 2016.02.14 02:50:08 - [126] - Quote I've been saying this ever since the mere notion of skill trading was raised back in October. Suffice it to say I am going to enjoy seeing my concerns vindicated as the game's population declines sharply over the next few months.
Mistah Ewedynao Ice Axe Psycho Killers 579	Posted - 2016.02.14 04:08:25 - [127] - Quote Captain Grantkarppe wrote: You've successfully dealt a potentially killing blow to your game, CCP. ANOTHER killing blow. The whole "** off vets, we are giving it to the noobs" attitude of the new management is quite visible to me every Sunday when I log on and see 15k-20k LESS people online than just a few years ago. Being in Goonswarm is not what the majority of the players in eve want to do CCP, obviously hard for you to comprehend, but just look at your paid subs. Just keep thinking that everybody wants to spend their game time in a giant lag fest in null while ganking defenseless haulers in high sec with alts and watch the numbers fall. It was lots of fun at times. With this brilliant move you make all our YEARS of skill training meaningless. Now you are gonna kill the last bastion of the solo Indy player with Citadels. I haven't payed real money to play in a few years now, down from 10 accounts to 3 and counting down. Just spending my accumulated wealth. I just don't see a future for me in this game anymore. I am really kinda surprised you didn't make a mini-game out of it. Skill Spew at Jita 4-4. Extra SP if you fly a armor tanker with shield mods and a mix of lasers, hybrids and launchers. Who are you people and what happened to the people that understood this game and made it work well? Nerf Goons** Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 471	Posted - 2016.02.14 08:05:19 - [128] - Quote Mistah Ewedynao wrote: Captain Grantkarppe wrote: You've successfully dealt a potentially killing blow to your game, CCP. ANOTHER killing blow. The whole "**** off vets, we are giving it to the noobs" attitude of the new management is quite visible to me every Sunday when I log on and see 15k-20k LESS people online than just a few years ago. Being in Goonswarm is not what the majority of the players in eve want to do CCP, obviously hard for you to comprehend, but just look at your paid subs. Just keep thinking that everybody wants to spend their game time in a giant lag fest in null while ganking defenseless haulers in high sec with alts and watch the numbers fall. It was lots of fun at times. With this brilliant move you make all our YEARS of skill training meaningless. Now you are gonna kill the last bastion of the solo Indy player with Citadels. I haven't payed real money to play in a few years now, down from 10 accounts to 3 and counting down. Just spending my accumulated wealth. I just don't see a future for me in this game anymore. I am really kinda surprised you didn't make a mini-game out of it. Skill Spew at Jita 4-4. Extra SP if you fly a armor tanker with shield mods and a mix of lasers, hybrids and launchers. Who are you people and what happened to the people that understood this game and made it work well? I plan to do the exact same thing. I'm gonna strip the SP of my alts, power up Dani and sell off the rest SP and just pew the rest of my wealth away. Once my game resources have been exhausted, I'm done.
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 292	Posted - 2016.02.14 08:18:22 - [129] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Mistah Ewedynao wrote: Captain Grantkarppe wrote: You've successfully dealt a potentially killing blow to your game, CCP. ANOTHER killing blow. The whole "**** off vets, we are giving it to the noobs" attitude of the new management is quite visible to me every Sunday when I log on and see 15k-20k LESS people online than just a few years ago. Being in Goonswarm is not what the majority of the players in eve want to do CCP, obviously hard for you to comprehend, but just look at your paid subs. Just keep thinking that everybody wants to spend their game time in a giant lag fest in null while ganking defenseless haulers in high sec with alts and watch the numbers fall. It was lots of fun at times. With this brilliant move you make all our YEARS of skill training meaningless. Now you are gonna kill the last bastion of the solo Indy player with Citadels. I haven't payed real money to play in a few years now, down from 10 accounts to 3 and counting down. Just spending my accumulated wealth. I just don't see a future for me in this game anymore. I am really kinda surprised you didn't make a mini-game out of it. Skill Spew at Jita 4-4. Extra SP if you fly a armor tanker with shield mods and a mix of lasers, hybrids and launchers. Who are you people and what happened to the people that understood this game and made it work well? I plan to do the exact same thing. I'm gonna strip the SP of my alts, power up Dani and sell off the rest SP and just pew the rest of my wealth away. Once my game resources have been exhausted, I'm done. stop planning and do it already, geez... Just Add Water
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 471	Posted - 2016.02.14 08:59:40 - [130] - Quote Nat Silverguard wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Mistah Ewedynao wrote: Captain Grantkarppe wrote: You've successfully dealt a potentially killing blow to your game, CCP. ANOTHER killing blow. The whole "**** off vets, we are giving it to the noobs" attitude of the new management is quite visible to me every Sunday when I log on and see 15k-20k LESS people online than just a few years ago. Being in Goonswarm is not what the majority of the players in eve want to do CCP, obviously hard for you to comprehend, but just look at your paid subs. Just keep thinking that everybody wants to spend their game time in a giant lag fest in null while ganking defenseless haulers in high sec with alts and watch the numbers fall. It was lots of fun at times. With this brilliant move you make all our YEARS of skill training meaningless. Now you are gonna kill the last bastion of the solo Indy player with Citadels. I haven't payed real money to play in a few years now, down from 10 accounts to 3 and counting down. Just spending my accumulated wealth. I just don't see a future for me in this game anymore. I am really kinda surprised you didn't make a mini-game out of it. Skill Spew at Jita 4-4. Extra SP if you fly a armor tanker with shield mods and a mix of lasers, hybrids and launchers. Who are you people and what happened to the people that understood this game and made it work well? I plan to do the exact same thing. I'm gonna strip the SP of my alts, power up Dani and sell off the rest SP and just pew the rest of my wealth away. Once my game resources have been exhausted, I'm done. stop planning and do it already, geez... Sorry Nat, I'm normally not a whiner but CCP has really done it this time.

Scotchmo Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2016.02.14 21:33:53 - [131] - Quote So I take it with the new skill trading that t3 cruisers downside (loss of sp) can now be overcome with an additional 600mil on the hull price. Is this intended? This seems as close to gold ammo as there can be without actually calling it gold ammo.
Tetsel Heretic Army I N F A M O U S 230	Posted - 2016.02.14 23:49:35 - [132] - Quote Michael Turate wrote: You can't buy social skills, intelligence, cunning, the ability to work in a team, communication, tactics or any of the stuff that really matters in Eve. There have never been short cuts in Eve. There still aren't, there's just an enormously expensive alternative route that looks like a short cut but which, for most, will just be a dead end. So why bother ? we should ask CCP to stop this stupid skill stuff and just give all of the players maxed out pilots then. Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel Another Bittervet Please Ignore
Osmonde Jr Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.15 01:33:24 - [133] - Quote This is so entertaining, all the butt hurt over skill trading and predictions that the game is going to die now. After reading all 7 pages I still can't understand what the butt hurt is about. I am guessing the only thing to measure a persons progress in this game was apparently the SP that you accumulated.
Demica Diaz SE-1 219	Posted - 2016.02.15 09:25:10 - [134] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: A 4-day-old character lost his 10-billion Ark yesterday. SP != Skill. SP does not teach you anything, it only enables you to do certain things. Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. It is pay to win. Newbs lose capitals all the time but so do experienced players. losing a ship to a gank does not negate the fact you can pay for SP. given certain alliances have trillions and trillions of isk and can generate trillions more each day EvE will now be about buying skillpoints and whomever can afford the most to max out their doctrine fleets will be the winners. I agree. It is pay to win. What baffels me is that so many fail to see beyond PvP aspect. Skill pumped newbro explorer will be winning "regular" newbro in exploration in every way. Scan faster, fly bubble immune T3 in null, has more virus strenght to succeed in minigame... and so on.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 214	Posted - 2016.02.15 09:43:33 - [135] - Quote Osmonde Jr wrote: This is so entertaining, all the butt hurt over skill trading and predictions that the game is going to die now. After reading all 7 pages I still can't understand what the butt hurt is about. I am guessing the only thing to measure a persons progress in this game was apparently the SP that you accumulated. SP didn't measure progress it measured the time you'd put into your character. Nobody else cared about your SP but to you every skill you train gives you a sense of progression / "accomplishment" especially since some ca take a month, it's a mental trick to reward you for continuing to play. Now everyone is realising that SP no longer holds the same value it once had, rich players can buy their way instantly to any desired skill set, and if you can't well too bad eve isn't made for poors like you. This knowledge cheapens the entire experience for many people who were looking for something deeper than a mechanically simple, slow paced, lock-f1, spreadsheet simulator. Eve of old felt like a real living world. That depth helped people look past it's failings, stripping out depth exposes the less than great parts that will continue to put off new players. A case for more AoE in EvE
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2471	Posted - 2016.02.15 09:45:17 - [136] - Quote Demica Diaz wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: Linus Gorp wrote: A 4-day-old character lost his 10-billion Ark yesterday. SP != Skill. SP does not teach you anything, it only enables you to do certain things. Skill trading is not pay to win. Those who think otherwise are the ones that will lose all their money and be podded back to World of Warcraft, where they belong. It is pay to win. Newbs lose capitals all the time but so do experienced players. losing a ship to a gank does not negate the fact you can pay for SP. given certain alliances have trillions and trillions of isk and can generate trillions more each day EvE will now be about buying skillpoints and whomever can afford the most to max out their doctrine fleets will be the winners. I agree. It is pay to win. What baffels me is that so many fail to see beyond PvP aspect. Skill pumped newbro explorer will be winning "regular" newbro in exploration in every way. Scan faster, fly bubble immune T3 in null, has more virus strenght to succeed in minigame... and so on. its not pay2win because its already available within the game with no restrictions "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 307	Posted - 2016.02.15 09:46:52 - [137] - Quote Demica Diaz wrote: I agree. It is pay to win. What baffels me is that so many fail to see beyond PvP aspect. Skill pumped newbro explorer will be winning "regular" newbro in exploration in every way. Scan faster, fly bubble immune T3 in null, has more virus strenght to succeed in minigame... and so on. scan faster? lol, there's alot of empty space out there that there shouldn't be any competition at all. what's the difference between level 4 to 5 of scanning skills anyway to make it as big as an advantage? flying through buubles are considered winning now? virus strength? lol, see answer # 1. Just Add Water
Osmonde Jr Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.15 17:22:27 - [138] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: This is so entertaining, all the butt hurt over skill trading and predictions that the game is going to die now. After reading all 7 pages I still can't understand what the butt hurt is about. I am guessing the only thing to measure a persons progress in this game was apparently the SP that you accumulated. SP didn't measure progress it measured the time you'd put into your character. Nobody else cared about your SP but to you every skill you train gives you a sense of progression / "accomplishment" especially since some ca take a month, it's a mental trick to reward you for continuing to play. Now everyone is realising that SP no longer holds the same value it once had, rich players can buy their way instantly to any desired skill set, and if you can't well too bad eve isn't made for poors like you. This knowledge cheapens the entire experience for many people who were looking for something deeper than a mechanically simple, slow paced, lock-f1, spreadsheet simulator. Eve of old felt like a real living world. That depth helped people look past it's failings, stripping out depth exposes the less than great parts that will continue to put off new players. It wasn't like that before? I remember when I joined in 08, I just bought a 40 million pvp toon (thanks to gtc's) and then beat on people that were new to the game or just learning pvp until an actual pvper put me in my place. So rich players buying into a skill set didn't change and I bet once people stop dumping the skill injectors on the market I bet it would cost the same amount as it did in 08. I never measured sp as progress if not more of a hindrance, the mental trick for me is being able to not restrain myself in just on one type of game play, like people here who only mission or "generate isk". All these tears (which are immensely satisfying) sounds like they belong in a theme park mmo since the big draw for me in Eve is the sand box content and me creating my own content. I think skill trading finally woken some people up that they never really had much with Eve to begin with, as it really is irrelevant that some person dropped $300 to boost their toon to 50 million sp as they will still lack experience and it doesn't hinder my game play. My point might be all over the place and I apologize. But I haven't seen one person is all 7 pages just like on /eve make one decent point on how skill trading is detrimental to game play. As for putting off new players it all depends on if they are going to limit themselves. This game is a sand box and you have to create your own content and if you are incapable of that that, then there is theme park mmo's that will have content available for you and no "p2w" with some that isn't f2p so you can keep you epeen of progression or time invested in your toon w/e.
Alea Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 220	Posted - 2016.02.15 17:29:04 - [139] - Quote Osmonde Jr wrote: This is so entertaining, all the butt hurt over skill trading and predictions that the game is going to die now. After reading all 7 pages I still can't understand what the butt hurt is about. I am guessing the only thing to measure a persons progress in this game was apparently the SP that you accumulated. Age of a character was a form of intel on possible skills and abilities, now age is useless as a person can now buy what they want instead of earning it over time, earning skills was honorable but now it's money in CCPs pocket, in essence they sold the soul of Eve, HTFU is no longer a part of Eve as long as you have RL money to buy the level you want to be at. SP trading is a form of pay to win, what comes next since this has gone over so well with the instant gratification kiddies.? If a shady pay to win scheme works why not a more blatant pay to win scheme,? If CCP introduced a name change for PLEX that would have been good, or at the most the ability to shuffle your own SP around on the same character that would have been somewhat tolerable, but buying skills for your character is flat out wrong for Eve, that's why it is dying as it's no longer a niche game as a new player can come in and buy there way to a level they can afford, pay to win. Whomever is making the last couple years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Josef Djugashvilis 3283	Posted - 2016.02.15 17:39:26 - [140] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: do we really need anymore discussion posts about sp trading sheesh. If you think eve is pay2win then get a newbro to fly a max level raven into lowsec/null and see if he wins Why is the assumption always that it will be a clueless new player who will buy skills - buy a ship and fittings and get hammered? Why could it not be a player of a few months who has some knowledge of pvp, who buys the skills to jump up a few ship - gun skill grades etc and in doing so gain an 'unfair' advantage over those of similar experience who cannot afford, or will not deal in cash for skills? This is not a signature.

Alea Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 220	Posted - 2016.02.15 17:56:20 - [141] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: its not pay2win because its already available within the game with no restrictions The character bazaar is not the same animal as buying SP, someone put time into training that character on the bazaar, buyers of SP are artificially enhancing there own character with no time of there own invested, pay to win. Whomever is making the last couple years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2605	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:01:50 - [142] - Quote Alea wrote: Lan Wang wrote: its not pay2win because its already available within the game with no restrictions The character bazaar is not the same animal as buying SP, someone put time into training that character on the bazaar, buyers of SP are artificially enhancing there own character with no time of there own invested, pay to win. The SP has to come from another character so the time was invested before.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2605	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:04:48 - [143] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: Lan Wang wrote: do we really need anymore discussion posts about sp trading sheesh. If you think eve is pay2win then get a newbro to fly a max level raven into lowsec/null and see if he wins Why is the assumption always that it will be a clueless new player who will buy skills - buy a ship and fittings and get hammered? Why could it not be a player of a few months who has some knowledge of pvp, who buys the skills to jump up a few ship - gun skill grades etc and in doing so gain an 'unfair' advantage over those of similar experience who cannot afford, or will not deal in cash for skills? That guy could of bought a maxed character for that ship out of the bazaar.
Alea Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 220	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:05:14 - [144] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Alea wrote: Lan Wang wrote: its not pay2win because its already available within the game with no restrictions The character bazaar is not the same animal as buying SP, someone put time into training that character on the bazaar, buyers of SP are artificially enhancing there own character with no time of there own invested, pay to win. The SP has to come from another character so the time was invested before. But not from the person injecting the SP, that's the point. Whomever is making the last couple years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2605	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:11:07 - [145] - Quote Alea wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Alea wrote: Lan Wang wrote: its not pay2win because its already available within the game with no restrictions The character bazaar is not the same animal as buying SP, someone put time into training that character on the bazaar, buyers of SP are artificially enhancing there own character with no time of there own invested, pay to win. The SP has to come from another character so the time was invested before. But not from the person injecting the SP, that's the point. The bazaar character was also not trained by the player using it. Player A was training character B to sell to player C. Now, player A will train and extract SP on character B to sell to player C so he can dump them on character D. The investment is not done by the final player but it was not before either.
Osmonde Jr Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:34:17 - [146] - Quote Alea wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: This is so entertaining, all the butt hurt over skill trading and predictions that the game is going to die now. After reading all 7 pages I still can't understand what the butt hurt is about. I am guessing the only thing to measure a persons progress in this game was apparently the SP that you accumulated. Age of a character was a form of intel on possible skills and abilities, now age is useless as a person can now buy what they want instead of earning it over time, earning skills was honorable but now it's money in CCPs pocket, in essence they sold the soul of Eve, HTFU is no longer a part of Eve as long as you have RL money to buy the level you want to be at. SP trading is a form of pay to win, what comes next since this has gone over so well with the instant gratification kiddies.? If a shady pay to win scheme works why not a more blatant pay to win scheme,? If CCP introduced a name change for PLEX that would have been good, or at the most the ability to shuffle your own SP around on the same character that would have been somewhat tolerable, but buying skills for your character is flat out wrong for Eve, that's why it is dying as it's no longer a niche game as a new player can come in and buy there way to a level they can afford, pay to win. Your post proves my point that there really is no basis in this anger. Age of a char was "possible" intel but the ship he was flying in was more reliable information. If you just went off age alone you would assume that my char is 150 million ,but in reality it is 50 as I was gone for 5 years. So the question I must ask is why did you join Eve post 08? I just instant gratified myself by picking up a pvp toon right out the gate and no restrictions and funded all my purchases with gtc's. I would consider that p2w as I was stomping on new bros all day long until someone who actually knew how to pvp showed me up. Also good one, earning skill "honorable" . Are you going to rp this argument? Tell me how it is dishonurbur for me to get new kids to go to low sec to mission with me? Or me suicide ganking miners? Or scamming people in Jita? Or stealing from a pve corporation? Well guess HTFU was never part of Eve since 08 as I funded all my purchases in GTC's and stomped on people who couldn't afford to buy one and had to mine or mission to plex their account. That is why I have a hard time understanding these arguments and I take so much enjoyment from this thread. I love the temper tantrums that really have no basis as for some reason it never dawned on people that it was possible since 08 for people to purchase a high lvl character and I didn't do just one, I gotten multiples. Also, it wasn't newbros that bought all that sp it is current players and returning players that liquidated their alts. If newbros are smart and there was no sp trading they would just do the same thing I did and still stomp on people that are less experienced. I am quite entertained.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out 4530	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:48:17 - [147] - Quote Alea wrote: now age is useless as a person can now buy what they want instead of earning it over time, earning skills was honorable but now it's money in CCPs pocket, i'm getting 2700 honour/hour atm the abbreviation is hr/hr btw the first hr is honour
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 328	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:54:38 - [148] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Alea wrote: now age is useless as a person can now buy what they want instead of earning it over time, earning skills was honorable but now it's money in CCPs pocket, i'm getting 2700 honour/hour atm the abbreviation is hr/hr btw the first hr is honour Why use a car to go to the shops, surely it's more honourable to walk. Times change, just as well as we would all be still in caves.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out 4530	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:59:05 - [149] - Quote obviously the republic university doesn't teach advanced honour
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 48	Posted - 2016.02.15 18:59:35 - [150] - Quote Avvy wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Alea wrote: now age is useless as a person can now buy what they want instead of earning it over time, earning skills was honorable but now it's money in CCPs pocket, i'm getting 2700 honour/hour atm the abbreviation is hr/hr btw the first hr is honour Why use a car to go to the shops, surely it's more honourable to walk. Times change, just as well as we would all be still in caves. but...but...but mah honour! How will I feel superior about my strict adherence to space bushido?

Sibyyl Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 26490	Posted - 2016.02.16 06:08:17 - [151] - Quote You are right, OP. EVE is now pay to lose. Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Change links. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
David Semris House Semris 19	Posted - 2016.02.16 08:38:32 - [152] - Quote My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week. I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn-¦t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...). So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly ). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun. Have fun guys o7
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat FETID 2488	Posted - 2016.02.16 08:57:13 - [153] - Quote David Semris wrote: My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week. I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn-¦t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...). So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly ). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun. Have fun guys o7 could i have your stuff please? "Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus ............................... Angel Cartel \|\| Serpentis
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 328	Posted - 2016.02.16 09:18:16 - [154] - Quote Gedrick frogue wrote: ... Eve's greatest strength has always been that you had to earn, learn and grow within Eve, you learnt how skills, ship's, fittings, weapons, industry et all worked You did this by training skills and working things out with corp buddies, you also valued your skill points, after all some skills could take you 30 or more days to train for So now you can pay some Isk and buy an injector and jump up your skills, you have lost more than what you think you have gained You have lost that value, teamwork and understanding element that you had when before this "feature" you had respec'ed your attributes, stuffed implants into your head asked your buddies how to get towards your goal and train, all these things that made Eve, Eve ... Learning how to fit a ship hasn't changed. I boosted this character by 18.5 million sp as I'm sure a lot of you already know. Which doesn't mean I know anymore about the game than I did before, the learning process has not been effected, you still have to learn. Players will still have to learn how to play and how to fit their ships. All I gained was the ability to do more things, it also evened up a solo fight with a similar ship in terms of sp but only sp. Teamwork hasn't been effected, not sure why you even said it was. I don't respect attributes because they were always more of a hindrance to the game than a help, especially in the earlier stages and the attribute implants at all stages. Unless you were sat in a safe spot with +5 fitted. I'm sure they led to many players not getting involved as they risked the implants as well as tending to keep you training with the main attributes you have set instead of freely being able to choose what to train. IRL you can pick and choose what to train, don't see why that should be any difference here.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2016.02.16 10:57:39 - [155] - Quote One of the big foundations of this game was for you to live with choices. Choosing from skills available to you within your limited time was one of them. Choosing which skills you need as Vs is another. I've got a set of "must have" skills which end in 7 days, and about 6 months of "nice" skills of various levels of utility to do... something. And my head has a couple of +5s in it, and my cargo bay has a couple more just in case. If you are willing to blow the money on it, that part of the game is gone. Then again, that consequence for jumping into a wormhole and getting surprised doesn't mean much any more-just bring a clean clone and a cheap fit and make up the "lost" time from implants by buying injectors. Or, put another way, we now have a grind-for-skills "option." The only good thing about it is there are several ways to make kredits. A signature :o
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 5260	Posted - 2016.02.16 11:03:14 - [156] - Quote What the hell, I have seen a word HONORABLE here. HONORABLE in EVE, what does that mean? ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 284	Posted - 2016.02.16 12:05:12 - [157] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The difference is and will be scale. This feature is going to be an abject lesson to CCP of the folly of cash grabbing. There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited. The people supporting skill trading are every bit as na+»ve as the people who argued with us back in 2009. CCP claimed Dominion Sov would be GREAT for small groups, and the...overly optimistic types agreed and some even proclaimed that the 'entrenched powers' were going to get what they had coming. What they got was richer and stronger while the weaker folk got poorer...them absorbed into the CFC lol. What they did was complexly shut out the few small/independent types who had a bit of sov. As in EVERY case like this, the people who were supposed to benefit, mostly didn't, while the people who should have never been handed more advantages used the system to create even more advantages. A few years later I was more than happy to gloat at CCP a bit when the truth finally set in (because it was so obvious and "blue donuty" that it could no longer be ignored). I plan on doing the exact same with this feature, after breaking the space-bank with SP farmed isk...that will probably be about as valuable as a Zimbabwe dollar by then. My God, I was half way through reading your response, and forgot if we were discussing Eveonline or the American political system. This is basically what happens.
Norian Lonark Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 175	Posted - 2016.02.16 12:16:31 - [158] - Quote Avvy wrote: I boosted this character by 18.5 million sp as I'm sure a lot of you already know. Which doesn't mean I know anymore about the game than I did before, the learning process has not been effected, you still have to learn. Players will still have to learn how to play and how to fit their ships. All I gained was the ability to do more things, it also evened up a solo fight with a similar ship in terms of sp but only sp. Teamwork hasn't been effected, not sure why you even said it was. I never liked the idea of SP injectors, for me the whole aspect of buying skills to customise your characters in this way goes against one of the most fundamental things I enjoyed about eve. The progression. Everyone was on the same level, you had to think plan and live with choices. Its something that made the game different to everything else. Sure you could buy a character of the bazzar but it wasnt your character... it was someone else's imo a big difference to being able to freely customise your own character. As has been stated many times over there are still many other aspects of the game not affected yet... but this kind of mindset... oh I can go boost my char by 18.5m sp to give me more choices and options so I can have fun... , skills and progression are not deemed as fun for this new player base. Now that we have given the ability for everyone to just buy their characters skills and make them how they want why have skills at all? Let everyone do everything let everyone be maxed out when a new ship or mod comes into the game just let everyone have access to it instantly. I really do feel that CCP picked a quick win for an instant cash injection and personally feel that this has probably shortened the life of the game and this fundamental change of philosphy will do more damage in the long term. It certainly has devalued EVE for me. Start wide, expand further, and never look back
Verlyn Sisters of Xambu 51	Posted - 2016.02.16 12:20:46 - [159] - Quote While i do understand the need for CCP to look for alternative ways to keep the game running, I do think it a bit of a slap to the face to the older playerbase who spent a good year or more training their characters, planning and choosing their paths carefully, only to find themselves suddenly roaming around 4 year old equal SP chars in the end, and who have it given to them all on a silver platter. Some form compensation from CCP for the older playerbase, as in, a free SP injector for instance, to retransfer the lost SP some of the old characters might have, would've been a nice move, but not something I'd expect from them anyway.
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 60	Posted - 2016.02.16 13:22:22 - [160] - Quote Verlyn wrote: who have it given to them all on a silver platter. I didn't realize new accounts got tons of free skill-points handed to them to catch up. I assumed new players just had the option to buy skill-points through injectors and would end up paying around 3x as much as older players have.

Terrorfrodo Renegade Hobbits for Mordor 716	Posted - 2016.02.16 13:31:03 - [161] - Quote The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself. Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability. .
Verlyn Sisters of Xambu 51	Posted - 2016.02.16 14:13:57 - [162] - Quote stg slate wrote: Verlyn wrote: who have it given to them all on a silver platter. I didn't realize new accounts got tons of free skill-points handed to them to catch up. I assumed new players just had the option to buy skill-points through injectors and would end up paying around 3x as much as older players have. I didn't realize one had to actually count on his own numbers right before barely even replying to an entire post.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13649	Posted - 2016.02.16 14:16:32 - [163] - Quote True Sight wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The difference is and will be scale. This feature is going to be an abject lesson to CCP of the folly of cash grabbing. There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited. The people supporting skill trading are every bit as na+»ve as the people who argued with us back in 2009. CCP claimed Dominion Sov would be GREAT for small groups, and the...overly optimistic types agreed and some even proclaimed that the 'entrenched powers' were going to get what they had coming. What they got was richer and stronger while the weaker folk got poorer...them absorbed into the CFC lol. What they did was complexly shut out the few small/independent types who had a bit of sov. As in EVERY case like this, the people who were supposed to benefit, mostly didn't, while the people who should have never been handed more advantages used the system to create even more advantages. A few years later I was more than happy to gloat at CCP a bit when the truth finally set in (because it was so obvious and "blue donuty" that it could no longer be ignored). I plan on doing the exact same with this feature, after breaking the space-bank with SP farmed isk...that will probably be about as valuable as a Zimbabwe dollar by then. My God, I was half way through reading your response, and forgot if we were discussing Eveonline or the American political system. This is basically what happens. That's because both the real life political system and EVE have one thing in common: Short sighted naive human beings that don't realize they have ideological blind spots. It's happened soooo many times in EVE. CCP comes out with something, the folks who proclaim they 'care' about the little guy rejoice (because this will SURELY break up the big blocs!!!!), only to find out that the thing CCP just did benefits the fat cats and screws the little guy.....again . So it turns out that the guys rejoicing were actually celebrating the fact that the people they support got hurt and their enemies thrived lol. This is mainly because the little guy is the little guy because he has little guy (fail) ways (and not because of some fat cat injustice), and the fat cat is the fat cat because he LIVES to turn lemons into lemonade, which is how he got fat in the 1st place. No amount of real world legislating or game world feature creation can overcome this.
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 60	Posted - 2016.02.16 14:16:43 - [164] - Quote Verlyn wrote: stg slate wrote: Verlyn wrote: who have it given to them all on a silver platter. I didn't realize new accounts got tons of free skill-points handed to them to catch up. I assumed new players just had the option to buy skill-points through injectors and would end up paying around 3x as much as older players have. I didn't realize one had to actually count on his own numbers right before barely even replying to an entire post. Forgive me for not being a native speaker, but I have no idea what that sentence actually says or implies.
David Semris House Semris 19	Posted - 2016.02.16 14:33:22 - [165] - Quote Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself. Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability. I would very much agree with this if the skill system would be totally removed from the game. But I doubt new players will wish to invest thousands of Euro to catch up (lazy to count how much it would cost) - they simply won-¦t have the ISK to pay for it with in-game currency. Also many new players may be simply discouraged by this (p2w) and might not even try the game if they know about this option ahead.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 4751	Posted - 2016.02.16 14:51:22 - [166] - Quote Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself. Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability. Frankly, telling new players that, even as they might feel outnumbered in SPs, they can just pay again to close that gap is not exactly a good selling point. "Pay again" being the issue here. CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now". 62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?" CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
Osmonde Jr Caldari Provisions Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.16 15:19:08 - [167] - Quote Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself. Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability. Or if those new players have "friends" that are already in Eve and established they would pick up some skill injectors for them. It makes my life easier to give them 5 million sp off the bat and if they stay for the year give them another 20 million to top them off so they can fly at least half of the things I am flying. If you actually took 5 secs to really examine their rants it really in nothing but a temper tantrum and that the game is yet again adapting. It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess .
David Semris House Semris 19	Posted - 2016.02.16 15:34:59 - [168] - Quote Osmonde Jr wrote: It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . To use your numbers... Boosting character to decent SPs in EVE online - 600 USD Buying maxed out character in WoW - 60 USD (Flying in virtual spaceship - priceless! The commercial just came to my mind... ) Something went awry.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13664	Posted - 2016.02.16 15:56:04 - [169] - Quote Osmonde Jr wrote: Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now. They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).
Crystal Liche ACME Mineral and Gas 177	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:04:18 - [170] - Quote EVE devalued itself the day they introduced PLEX and allowed character trading. You could just buy a pre-trained char and pay for ships by selling plex. This is just a new version of that, that was the end of the true sandbox.

Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2609	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:15:52 - [171] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now. They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players). WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open? MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!!
Ibutho Inkosi Irubo Kovu 154	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:16:59 - [172] - Quote By the by. If anyone's devalued the game, it's the ones that picked the one easy thing to do, ignoring all the rest, just for lulz. As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13664	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:28:17 - [173] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now. They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players). WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open? MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!! The 'gameplay' of time progression is/was that it forced you to take time. So you have to figure out how to play at level 3 of some kill until it got to level 4 and there was no way aorund that (except buying a character which was expensive and clunky). That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Even more so when you could lose SP when getting podded if you didn't upgrade your clone. "Meaning" has value in a video game (so does "loss", another thing CCP has dampend down over the last few years). in fact, it's the only thing that does because this is a game (a pass time). That's why other games use micro transactions, their games have nothing to offer after the 'new shiney' affect wheres off so they use micro transactions and pay to win features to suck the money out from the front end. The fact that you don't understand why EVE's form of time based progression was so important isn't odd, because CCP just demonstrated they don't know either lol. You, (like them) will eventually learn, but it would have been better if they (and you) could have seen it coming before hand.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:28:53 - [174] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: we now have a grind-for-skills "option." I personally prefer that to the grind for PLEX option.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:32:35 - [175] - Quote Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:40:06 - [176] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now. They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players). WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open? MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!! The 'gameplay' of time progression is/was that it forced you to take time. So you have to figure out how to play at level 3 of some kill until it got to level 4 and there was no way aorund that (except buying a character which was expensive and clunky). That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Even more so when you could lose SP when getting podded if you didn't upgrade your clone. "Meaning" has value in a video game (so does "loss", another thing CCP has dampend down over the last few years). in fact, it's the only thing that does because this is a game (a pass time). That's why other games use micro transactions, their games have nothing to offer after the 'new shiney' affect wheres off so they use micro transactions and pay to win features to suck the money out from the front end. The fact that you don't understand why EVE's form of time based progression was so important isn't odd, because CCP just demonstrated they don't know either lol. You, (like them) will eventually learn, but it would have been better if they (and you) could have seen it coming before hand. 1- Buy PLEX 2- Sell PLEX on market 3- Buy character 4- Skip grind 5- ??????? 6- Profit Ever since that existed, the slow grind was officially only a speed bump over which you could jump. Pretending the game was more "pure" before SP trading is silly. The only difference is you can make smaller transfer. Hoarding SP in the same character has lower effectiveness anyway.I for example will probably never get a good use of my freighter skill as long as I am in Null, Those SP on an alt would of been a much better options which mean an alt is still a better option in most case. The only downside of alts is support skill have to be "earned" again. The rest is pure bonus since you can use the character for different jobs much more easily. Everyone who thinks about it know alts are better in at least 99% of the use case in the game.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:41:02 - [177] - Quote Avvy wrote: Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option. Nope. IT was still working. The game was not failing and even if you want to say it is, the SP system is not the reason for it.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 412	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:45:12 - [178] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:46:06 - [179] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Avvy wrote: Terrorfrodo wrote: The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option. Nope. IT was still working. The game was not failing and even if you want to say it is, the SP system is not the reason for it. There's more than one reason, amongst them how long it takes go get into the game, in-game communications plus others
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:47:30 - [180] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?) The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers.

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13666	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:50:48 - [181] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: 1- Buy PLEX 2- Sell PLEX on market 3- Buy character 4- Skip grind 5- ??????? 6- Profit So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading? Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad. PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth. And who has toons to strip? Why, it's established players. Who doesn't have old spare toons to strip? Why it's the new players that this was supposed to help. NOW they have a way to pump cash into CCP (true), but also a way to pump isk to the LAST people who need more wealth. And all in exchange for skillpoints, that don't make you better at the game (though the new player thinks it does), sitting the new player up for disappointment (as they produce hilarious killmails for vets to laugh at on some Goon website or another). You think disappointment is good for a game? The problem with shortsightedness is that you can't prove to the short sighted that they are indeed that until after the bad things that were predicted happen. It's like when CCP proposes a nerf, some in the community says "don't do that", CCP does it anyways, it proves to be as unbalanced as people said it would be, and CCP has to spend time and money "iterating" on it later on (when they could have just got it right from the get go) lol. It keeps happening and it's going ti happen this time too.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 16:58:09 - [182] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: [ Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad. Actually it was used quite a bit, when I saw the figures of sales that CCP quoted somewhere, I was very surprised. It was a lot more than I had perceived.
pajedas 145	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:08:00 - [183] - Quote RMT is BAD!!! Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market. They are the very essence of RMT now.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:09:35 - [184] - Quote pajedas wrote: RMT is BAD!!! Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market. They are the very essence of RMT now. They're just getting in tune with other companies. At least they kept it in the player market.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:13:24 - [185] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: 1- Buy PLEX 2- Sell PLEX on market 3- Buy character 4- Skip grind 5- ??????? 6- Profit So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading? Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad. PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth. And who has toons to strip? Why, it's established players. Who doesn't have old spare toons to strip? Why it's the new players that this was supposed to help. NOW they have a way to pump cash into CCP (true), but also a way to pump isk to the LAST people who need more wealth. And all in exchange for skillpoints, that don't make you better at the game (though the new player thinks it does), sitting the new player up for disappointment (as they produce hilarious killmails for vets to laugh at on some Goon website or another). You think disappointment is good for a game? The problem with shortsightedness is that you can't prove to the short sighted that they are indeed that until after the bad things that were predicted happen. It's like when CCP proposes a nerf, some in the community says "don't do that", CCP does it anyways, it proves to be as unbalanced as people said it would be, and CCP has to spend time and money "iterating" on it later on (when they could have just got it right from the get go) lol. It keeps happening and it's going ti happen this time too. People will do both because they each have their up side. Alts offer utility a character bloated with SP does not. Simple stuff like not having to be in your corp for any high sec business will be valued. Alts will also still be valued for any task that can scale with character number. The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:15:18 - [186] - Quote pajedas wrote: RMT is BAD!!! Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market. They are the very essence of RMT now. Now? Really? Now? SP transfer make them the essence of RMT but not PLEX? Skins? Monocle? Space barbie accessories? The line really is at SP transfer where they become the essence of RMT?
pajedas 145	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:17:57 - [187] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: pajedas wrote: RMT is BAD!!! Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market. They are the very essence of RMT now. Now? Really? Now? SP transfer make them the essence of RMT but not PLEX? Skins? Monocle? Space barbie accessories? The line really is at SP transfer where they become the essence of RMT? Draw the line wherever you like, makes no difference to me. I know what I know and you "think" you know what I know :-/
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13666	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:25:29 - [188] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point. They will have had months to learn. That's the difference. There is a real world example. Most people who become rich in real life through a life of hard work (and probably some cunning/cheating) stay rich. Most people who get rich quick (like winning the lottery, playing professions sports, entertainers etc) end up broke within a few years. It's because the person who got gradually rich developed skills needed to cope with being rich. The 'fast rich' are just poor people with money...that they soon lose. Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players. This is SP trading. (Thanks reddit lol)
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:31:54 - [189] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The people who will be dissapointed in the result of their "maxed" character as they get blown up will be the same as if they did it over moths to get to the same point. They will have had months to learn. That's the difference. There is a real world example. Most people who become rich in real life through a life of hard work (and probably some cunning/cheating) stay rich. Most people who get rich quick (like winning the lottery, playing professional sports, entertainers etc) end up broke within a few years. It's because the person who got gradually rich developed skills needed to cope with being rich. The 'fast rich' are just poor people with money...that they soon lose. Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players. This is SP trading. (Thanks reddit lol) People are still dissapointed at losing their freighter after years of playing. Time don't change them if they weren't open minded about it in the first place.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:36:44 - [190] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: People are still dissapointed at losing their freighter after years of playing. Time don't change them if they weren't open minded about it in the first place. There's no point dwelling on the past, they should just think about what happened, learn from it an move forward.

Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 412	Posted - 2016.02.16 17:40:54 - [191] - Quote Avvy wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?) The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers. Okay, so what I'm hearing is that you don't object to there being an AUR cost associated with SP trading - rather, you object to SP trading being possible at all.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13667	Posted - 2016.02.16 18:23:39 - [192] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?) If they were free (meaning someone could extract from a toon they own and give to another they own at a cost, or give away for free to some other play) then no, I would not object. If they dropped from NPCs I would not object either. Skill points don't mean much and are not sacrosanct. But the way this has been down creates a source of wealth that wasn't' easily tapped before. A source exclusively in the hands of established players (like me, i have 4 accounts), one that regenerates itself at the tune of 2200 sp per hour, and one that stacks yet more wealth into a game that already has WAY too many wealth (including isk) faucets. Too much wealth (no matter how it's distributed) cheapens everything in the game.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9892	Posted - 2016.02.16 18:25:20 - [193] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players. Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution. Jenn aSide wrote: I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP! Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 18:27:05 - [194] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Avvy wrote: Eli Stan wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?) The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers. Okay, so what I'm hearing is that you don't object to there being an AUR cost associated with SP trading - rather, you object to SP trading being possible at all. I hope I don't object to sp trading, done enough of it myself. All I'm saying here is that although extractors are not cosmetic I don't really see an issue as they are only empty containers.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13668	Posted - 2016.02.16 18:30:23 - [195] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players. Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution. Jenn aSide wrote: I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP! Mr Epeen Nope. CCP provides a way to do things, I take advantage. I run incursions too (and those are too lucrative). I'm not in charge of CCP (or responsbile for the detrimental affects on other people that come from CCP decisions). SP trading is not against the EULA, so I'm going to make use of it when I want to. I'm saying it would have been way smarted to not allow this in the 1st place. Since they do, I'm going to abuse the hell out of it.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2610	Posted - 2016.02.16 18:53:40 - [196] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Mr Epeen wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Skill injected newbies will experience the same things those lottery winners did. That's what I was saying to you. TIME is valuable, and taking time to build up makes for better players, and better experiences for those players. Too bad that you are part of the problem and not the solution. Jenn aSide wrote: I've got 20 bil in my wallet just from selling unwanted SP from alts I don't even use, and this is without touching my main characters (the 4 I use everytime I log in) or the 4 other alts I sometimes use. But last night it was like 'what's the point, it's not like I need the isk lol'. If you feel so strongly that it's a bad mechanic that is bad for new players, STOP EXTRACTING AND SELLING YOUR SP! Mr Epeen Nope. CCP provides a way to do things, I take advantage. I run incursions too (and those are too lucrative). I'm not in charge of CCP (or responsbile for the detrimental affects on other people that come from CCP decisions). SP trading is not against the EULA, so I'm going to make use of it when I want to. I'm saying it would have been way smarted to not allow this in the 1st place. Since they do, I'm going to abuse the hell out of it. So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great...
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13669	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:08:29 - [197] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great... What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting. But adapting doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'. In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest? Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was?
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:12:51 - [198] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great... What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting. But adapting doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'. In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest? Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was? Adapting is one thing, but moaning about it and adapting is another. If you use the system, then you've accepted the system albeit reluctantly.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2611	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:13:56 - [199] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: So you are too selfish to ride the high horse you display on the forum. Isn't that great... What possible affect could I have? Unlike some, I don't think my not doing something (or leaving) will have the least affect. Now, if it did, I would, but my options or "adapt" or "leave", so I'm adapting. But adpating doesn't mean 'stop telling the truth'. In fact, I'm adapting the exact same way you Goons did with Dominion, Aegis, Jump Fatigue, buffed exhumers and the rest. Many of your compatriots tried to tell CCP some of the changes they did were bad deals.. Did you all not use those features in useless protest? Or did you all use them and SHOW CCP how bad it was? You would pretty much have the same effect as CCP would have if they forgo going ahead with a proven business model by the big player in the industry. How can you even try to argue they should not follow what EA, Blizz and co. do when you are too selfish to give yourself as an example of righteous action in face of apparently broken and evil new possibility? You would have no effect? Well so does CCP and that's why they will pursue those change because they are a business just like your alt group are a "business" by themselves. You run it to turn a profit in ISK to pay for your gametime or anyone else for that matter. You are "walking the miles in their shoes" right now and decided to go as they did instead of following your righteous way of not succumbing to the attraction of revenue in the name of a more "pure" environment.
David Semris House Semris 19	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:14:39 - [200] - Quote David Semris wrote: My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week. I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn-¦t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...). So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly ). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun. Have fun guys o7 Aaaand it was done, at the end 66 PLEXes were divided between friends, biomass time. Farewell o7

Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1930	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:26:00 - [201] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading? Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad. PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth. As I understand we once only had GTCs on the forums. We now have PLEX in game. If that's wrong please correct me, but if not how is that any different. And if PLEX is still ok and injectors are still not ok, why is wealth generation from subbing not ok, but wealth generation from just cash is? Further how does it being more common actually break it?
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 67	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:28:47 - [202] - Quote David Semris wrote: David Semris wrote: My secondary account character is being biomassed, my main will follow later this week. I see no point in playing anymore, I have invested (real life money) in injectors and maxed out last skills I have ever wanted / planned to have. I have had around 55 billions ISKs in wallet and all the ships I need/want. More importantly I can buy everything for real life money, there is simply no point in doing anything anymore. But people will still not call it pay to win (just because you can beat other player in pvp because you are personally better skilled player doesn-¦t change the fact you can now buy basically anything in this game for real life money, you know...). So at the moment I need to sell rest of my items and I have already bought like 45 PLEX (hopefully I can get much higher when I sell the 30 mils skill points I can) I will distribute between my friends before I leave (or I could take them to shuttle for a fly ). At least they can stop farming for a while (farming to plex account) and actually have some fun. Have fun guys o7 Aaaand it was done, at the end 66 PLEXes were divided between friends, biomass time. Farewell o7 Be well, watch out IRL is scarey and I haerd there are wolfs
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13669	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:38:32 - [203] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: You would pretty much have the same effect as CCP would have if they forgo going ahead with a proven business model by the big player in the industry. How can you even try to argue they should not follow what EA, Blizz and co. do when you are too selfish to give yourself as an example of righteous action in face of apparently broken and evil new possibility? I'm playing a video game. I real life I do exactly that (ie not making the money my siblings do from the family businesses I'm actually entitled to, I'm a lowly public servant). The problem with trying to emulate others is that those others made games with that kind of money making in mind. CCP is trying to shoe-horn EVE (a damn near contentless sandbox game) into a mainstream money maker and it won't work (because pay to progress only works if there is something to progress TO). You mention EA and Blizz, how many game companies don't exist now. How many tried to Do an EA or Blizz routine and failed? Quote: You would have no effect? Well so does CCP and that's why they will pursue those change because they are a business just like your alt group are a "business" by themselves. You run it to turn a profit in ISK to pay for your gametime or anyone else for that matter. You are "walking the miles in their shoes" right now and decided to go as they did instead of following your righteous way of not succumbing to the attraction of revenue in the name of a more "pure" environment. You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things. You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening.
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:43:40 - [204] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP. Great! Maybe they should hire you.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13670	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:56:28 - [205] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: So let me ask you a question. Do you think that after sp trading has been around for a while, that more peopel will do the above, or skill trading? Because that's the whole point. CCP took something that was possible but NOT widley used and turned it into something that IS widely used. Like all things, a little bit of something might be ok where as a lot of it might be bad. PLEX and the Character Bazaar were (borderline) ok. SP trading isn't, because it takes something (SP) that could only be converted into in game wealth via a convoluted process and streamlined it. Now you have people who would have NEVER sold a toon stipping those toons of now valuable SP, creating another avenue of wealth. As I understand we once only had GTCs on the forums. We now have PLEX in game. If that's wrong please correct me, but if not how is that any different. And if PLEX is still ok and injectors are still not ok, why is wealth generation from subbing not ok, but wealth generation from just cash is? Further how does it being more common actually break it? PLEx streamlined the GTC process some, sure. But plex was also totally destroyed when you used it. SP is only partially destroyed when used by higher SP characters. AND, unlike PLEX, SP is generated not when someone buys an extractor, but passively, all the time if you want. EVE in November 2008 was a game where rewards and isk and wealth where harder to come by. No re spawning null sec anoms, no incursions, lvl 5 missions were still newish etc. In that landscape it was ok to formalize GTC into PLEX. 8 years later (after 7 years of 25-35 trillion isk per month injections of raw isk not counting materials and modules and tings like that awful moon goo), EVE is a place that just doesn't need new wealth faucets IMO. Especially not an easily renewable one. That's what SP trading does, it takes something someone valuable (SP, which could be indirectly traded in the char bazaar) and turns it into yet another respawning thing (like null anoms). And that thing is going to exacerbate some structural problems New Eden already has, It potentially lowers to SP gap between new and old (which is worthless because real experience, not SP is king), while widening the real gap, the one between the rich (that can trough ships at stuff all day) and the in game poor who will have to use real cash more than ever. Someone ask me if skill trading would be ok if it was free. The most ardent anti-SP trading people will disagree, but I would have been fine with it (with proper balancing restrictions).
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 67	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:58:25 - [206] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things. You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. You should probably give up the pubic servant thingy and go get hired to run a video game, you seem to feel you know better than a team of people who are hired to spend every day managing one. Not just that, but you act like completely obvious to you and should be to everyone. Prodigy!
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13670	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:58:37 - [207] - Quote Avvy wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP. Great! Maybe they should hire you. If I'm wrong, no one losses, not even CCP. If I'm right? What do you think happens then? You were right when you said life can't teach you anything new, you display no wisdom whatsoever and thus don't understand the idea of erring on the side of caution. Sure, be mad at me if you like, but I'm not your problem.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13670	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:02:35 - [208] - Quote stg slate wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things. You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. You should probably give up the pubic servant thingy and go get hired to run a video game, you seem to feel you know better than a team of people who are hired to spend every day managing one. Not just that, but you act like completely obvious to you and should be to everyone. Prodigy! I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it.. Like I told the other guy who just surrendered, if I'm wrong about the bad affects that will reveal themselves in the coming months and years, well, good, no harm. But if I'm right, CCP would have hurt a great video game and made another avoidable mistake when they didn't have to. That even wouldn't be the end of the world, it would still be a damn shame.
stg slate We're Kind of a Big Deal 67	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:06:34 - [209] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it.. No, I am openly mocking you because you are coming off as a know-it-all; you're better than everyone because you work a crappy job as a public servant(by choice of course!), you've attempted to psychoanalyze peoples responses as an armchair psychologist, and now you are a master at game marketing and business plans for MMOs. It is amusing to me that you take ridicule as a sign of winning, you must win a lot of arguments on the internets
Avvy Republic University Minmatar Republic 329	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:08:18 - [210] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Avvy wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP. Great! Maybe they should hire you. If I'm wrong, no one losses, not even CCP. If I'm right? What do you think happens then? You were right when you said life can't teach you anything new, you display no wisdom whatsoever and thus don't understand the idea of erring on the side of caution. Sure, be mad at me if you like, but I'm not your problem. Not at all, one thing I find important and that is to keep an open mind and I do. Doesn't mean I'll change it at the drop of a hat. But if a good argument shows me the error of my ways I'm happy to take that on-board. It's just that I've not seen one yet. As for 'I doubt life can teach me anything new', I was referring to life lessons not Quantum theory.

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13671	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:16:23 - [211] - Quote stg slate wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: I accept your surrender. You know that's what you just did right? They only time one gets these kinds of replies is when a poster knows what your saying makes sense and they don't want to admit it.. No, I am openly mocking you because you are coming off as a know-it-all; you're better than everyone because you work a crappy job as a public servant(by choice of course!), you've attempted to psychoanalyze peoples responses as an armchair psychologist, and now you are a master at game marketing and business plans for MMOs. It is amusing to me that you take ridicule as a sign of winning, you must win a lot of arguments on the internets I've claimed to be master of nothing, that's just you projecting son. I am saying that I think the maker of the game i liek is making some mistakes, and while to err is human, making avoidable mistakes is stupid, and making avoidable mistakes chasing new money is worse still. If CCP thought skill trading was what the game (rather than their bottom line) needed, they could have made skill injectors and extractors items that drop from npcs and appear in lp stores. They could give them to new players who subscribe after trial as a 'welcome to new eden' gift. They could have done a lot of things, but they do the thing that monetizes SP above and beyond what the char bazaar did, and in a way that ends up as another major wealth faucet, and one that helps vets and will actually end up hurting new players. I'm real sorry if you don't like me pointing these things out. But that's your problem.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2611	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:20:07 - [212] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: You are wrong (and you're usually better than that). My using what CCP gives me in a video game, and CCP turning it's back on it's proven way of doing business to gamble on the hopes that 'new players' empowered by cash bought skill-points will stay (or a few whales will spend a lot of cash before leaving) are 2 different things. You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. Keep on preaching without acting. You sure are teaching people a lesson by acting that way. Abusing the system is bad but you abuse it just like the others. You can't expect to change people's mind over something when you admit to doing what you call wrong yourself. The fact that some devs failed after entering the micro transaction ring does not mean CCP will fail just il some being successful does not mean they will succeed. The only thing we can say for sure is that it CAN work if you do it the right way. It's of course important to understand what "the right way" mean. The right way is right from the business standpoint. EA is making a killing out of it because they are doing it "the right way". The games that failed did it wrong. EA had a proven business model before going to DLC and other stuff like that and adding it to their market was "turning it's back" to it's usual business model. Doing so is a risk for anyone who tries it. You are thinking CCP will fail and possibly fall because of it. It's a legitimate point of view but it does not make it the right one just like I could also be wrong in thinking the risk will pay off. Whoever's money is at stake is the one taking the real risk just like EA was when they started it, like blizzard started doing it and any other failed company when they tried it.
Josef Djugashvilis 3291	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:25:23 - [213] - Quote For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game. For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is. Furthermore, if CCP mange to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo? This is not a signature.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 2611	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:28:17 - [214] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game. For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is. Furthermore, if CCP mange to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo? What if you were both wrong on this case instead of both right? Is there anything that makes this completely impossible?
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13672	Posted - 2016.02.16 20:28:36 - [215] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: For much of the time that I have been aware of Jenn a Side, he and I have been on opposite sides of just about everything to do with the game. For us to have the same views on cash for skills, is indicative of how how bad an idea it is. Furthermore, if CCP mange to get away with it, what next to nickle and dime us - the infamous gold ammo? I just realized that Josef Djugashvilis and I are on the same side. This must mean I was wrong and I for one now fully welcome our new SP injected Overlords!. Just kidding, SP trading still sucks. Now who here wants to buy some of my skill points, I'm feeling like whelping a Nyx tonight?
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1915	Posted - 2016.02.16 23:18:04 - [216] - Quote You are not really going to see the true effects of SP trading until large alliances with ISK to burn (or members with real life deep pockets) can suddenly take on a new meta and have entire fleets retrained into a new doctrine ship the same week it is released.
Osmonde Jr Caldari Provisions Caldari State 2	Posted - 2016.02.17 01:34:00 - [217] - Quote quote=David Semris] Osmonde Jr wrote: It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . To use your numbers... Boosting character to decent SPs in EVE online - 600 USD Buying maxed out character in WoW - 60 USD (Flying in virtual spaceship - priceless! The commercial just came to my mind... ) Something went awry. [/quote] Yea it is a bit pricey, which is why I fail to understand where they keep getting this butt hurt of new players going to 500 mill sp as most typical whales spend what I do. Jenn aSide wrote: Osmonde Jr wrote: Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess . Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now. They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players). Well that is you problem that your only game play in Eve to have "meaning" is no different then a wow player or Rift player which is your characters sp you accumulated or the isk. Me it is the impact I make on other players whether I decide to help them or most of the time just **** in their Cheerios for the . Also amusing you believe that plex combats isk trading when isk purchases are still 100x cheaper. No what combat isk trading is when CCP stop being lazy and scorch earth all the botting accounts and banning players that sell them and punishing buyers (see unholy rage). But of course for a long term veteran such as yourself you would have known that . Anyway please, continue with the tears as I enjoy people who have nothing in life other then Eve to rage at the studio believing that it will force them to rescind all sp trading. Also another bump as I know there are more then this person that is butt hurt over these changes, please let out the emotion, my shoulder is available .
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 5742	Posted - 2016.02.17 05:09:17 - [218] - Quote Malcanis's Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Mistah Ewedynao Ice Axe Psycho Killers 586	Posted - 2016.02.19 04:57:09 - [219] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Pages of Goonish drivel. All I can say is that maybe Mittens/James315/latest churned ganker alt should create some new content and get CCP to come up with a new skill. Literate Forum Posting. I realize it may slow you down into skilling into a Talos and get in on those big ganks...you know a defenseless Anshar or Bowhead. We know you won't attack a freakin Obelisk piloted by someone bright enough to have slaves and armor resists. You could get a skill injector and become a literate forum poster overnight! Kidding aside, This is just another REALLY dumb move by CCP. Almost as dumb as believing Goons advice on how things in the game should work. Almost... Free to play coming up for noobs....then it's goodbye eve. Nerf Goons Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Crystal Liche ACME Mineral and Gas 177	Posted - 2016.02.19 16:01:38 - [220] - Quote Avvy wrote: pajedas wrote: RMT is BAD!!! Really, the only difference is that CCP wants to corner the market. They are the very essence of RMT now. They're just getting in tune with other companies. At least they kept it in the player market. Other companies don't even try to pretend they have (had) a sandbox.

Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 13712	Posted - 2016.02.19 16:15:05 - [221] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Malcanis's Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." Maybe it's this law (which is actually just age old good sense instead of a true new thought, no one could have said it better than Malcanis though). My it's me having a firm foot in middle age now lol. But whatever it is, I've learned something: Don't argue (so much at least). Arguing just makes people entrench further in their beliefs. The better way is to calmly wait for things to become so apparent that only the most delusional liar can ignore it, then point out to reasonable folks that the situation was avoidable with just a little bit of wisdom. I say Wisdom instead of intelligence because there is no shortage of intellectual horsepower in discussions like this, just very little foresight , and even less applying the lessons of the past to the current ideas.
Divine Entervention Hunters Elite Krab Republic 818	Posted - 2016.02.20 15:13:06 - [222] - Quote Even with my own trepidations, I know this does not ruin the game. EvE devalued still has a lot more to offer than just about every other mmo on the market. Perfection is impossible and those who demand it will always find disappointment. Except with me, cuz I'm #thebest
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 2397	Posted - 2016.02.21 04:31:16 - [223] - Quote Avvy wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP. Great! Maybe they should hire you. Given CCPs track record of woeful decisions thats not a big thing? There are good people at CCP but that matters little if theyre not making the decisions. Happens all the time - Hubble - engineers wanted to check mirror measurements management didnt. Challanger - engineers wanted to wait for warmer weather the night before launch over concerns o rings would freeze, management didnt. Im sure there are people at CCP shaking their heads at this lameness. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
blue dehazon Vega Farscape 31	Posted - 2016.02.22 00:21:17 - [224] - Quote Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar.
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 2400	Posted - 2016.02.22 01:36:50 - [225] - Quote blue dehazon wrote: Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar. Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill =ƒÿë CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
blue dehazon Vega Farscape 31	Posted - 2016.02.22 02:59:32 - [226] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: blue dehazon wrote: Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar. Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill =ƒÿë Sp dont tell you what a player been doing in the game, im 70m+ SP.and not don that mutch PVP.have good basic knowled about the game and most ship,but knowe werry well that som wth mutch less sp kan have a lot more exp with pvp,the point is its all depends on what you doing in game,and yes max pvp and skills give you an advantage,but iven more so if you knowe what your doing.
Johan Civire Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1071	Posted - 2016.02.22 03:11:26 - [227] - Quote Stop the QQ people and play the god damn game already or leave it. There is nothing you can do about it unless you stop buying subscribes. And feel it that way. Shouting and debate won`t help at all. Only sturning people up for no reasons.
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 2400	Posted - 2016.02.22 03:11:54 - [228] - Quote blue dehazon wrote: Infinity Ziona wrote: blue dehazon wrote: Kant se that thers many valid points in this thred,first of all SP have nothing with howe good you are or knowe the game,it only showe howe loong you been paying for playing it,only way to find out if som is better or knowe more about the game is to interact with other players in ways EvE let you do,And most gamers are don with a game after 3-5 years,earning ingame Sp can be better for the game in the loong run like a smal reward for actuly logging in and playing it,if its not just for repeting the same missions.Buying Sp on the marked will probebly not be a bigg issue,after all you all redy have the caracter bassar. Nothing to do with how good you are despite providing between 10% to 50% more cap hp repairing armor speed accuracy damage targeting ECM cap leeching cap draining scanning warp scrambling, range, tracking.... yup apparantly in EvE skillpoints dont matter its all about RL player skill =ƒÿë Sp dont tell you what a player been doing in the game, im 70m+ SP.and not don that mutch PVP.have good basic knowled about the game and most ship,but knowe werry well that som wth mutch less sp kan have a lot more exp with pvp,the point is its all depends on what you doing in game,and yes max pvp and skills give you an advantage,but iven more so if you knowe what your doing. That reasoning applies to almost every PvP game. Better RL skiiled players can beat badly RL skilled players. That goes without saying. In a game such as WoW a player who is total crap can beat an amazing player based on gear. In EvE that is also true - Gear in WoW is looted gear as well as gems, specs. Gear in EvE is ships as well as skills. There is a vast difference between a plated proteus with T2 guns with applicable skills skills trained to 5 vs the same ship with skills trained to minimum prereqs only. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Geronimo McVain Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2016.02.22 09:32:55 - [229] - Quote 1. for every player that want's to buy skills there has to be one who ist willing to distribute, CCP is NOT selling skillpoint but the ability to trade them: big difference. 2. Who cares? I always looked down on cheaters because they take the easy way and are destroying their own fun in the end. Man will I be proud of my fist battleship and mounr when it goes down. THATS why I play eve. And thats why I never gank: The most fun ist a fight that you crawl out with just the paint and ducktape holding your ship in one peace. Anyone who takes the ultrafast lane will soon be bored about the game cause there isn't anything to achieve and to be proudly remember. So CCP get some money, players get some isk AND the ability to respec some alts. I wouldn't be surprised if most injectors will be used within an account and not really sold on the market.
Ravana 729 Imperial Guardians 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 11:37:09 - [230] - Quote Ok first of all Eve is not a sandbox. I see people say that a lot but it is not much of one, and hasn't been for some time. People keep saying it is but it isn't. One of the ways it totally isn't a sandbox is the extremely problematic training climb - players MUST buy a character to even play the game. Being forced to fly frigs and do FW is not a sandbox at all. Not being able to influence the storyline at all unless CCP wills it is not a sandbox. Just look at the recent Imperium/Amarr conflict which CCP ignored so they could one-shot Jamyl because they have the attention span and imagination of an amoeba. Why would a company interfere with player driven stories with no professional writers on board? Being forced to buy SP packs to augment training is not a sandbox. It means players like me who have extra cash and their dignity to sacrifice will prosper, other newbies will suffer the abhorrent current state of training. Secondly I am the target audience for the SP packs, low sp, one year of play, waiting months between ships I want to fly...it's absurd really. But I am not stupid and I refuse to shell out cash just because Eve has poor game design in its training and progression. Instead of fixing it they decided to cash in. And when I see this kind of behavior it seems desperate and really doesn't make me feel confident that the game is moving in a direction of growth. When I saw that they were hiring people out of Electronic Arts it made me nervous. EA is known for this smash and grab behavior and cashing in wherever they think they can get away with it. I have boycotted EA games for almost 10 years. As far as WoW being pay-to-win that situation is quite different. You have always been able to buy a bunch of ISK and then buy a "max" Eve Character. But the difference between WoW and Eve is that the game is playable from 1-100. It's fun to play in between if you choose not to buy a character prelevelled or not. Eve is quite different in that as a player there is no diversity at low levels unless you do Faction Warfare and get in a good corp. Even then you're limited to frigates and destroyers for quite some time, and they are not very effective compared to a one year old character. That is enough time to completely lose most new players. Good game design requires game designers to hold the hand of new players, and let older players be free to do what they want. I see little of either in Eve as it is right now.

Ravana 729 Imperial Guardians 22	Posted - 2016.02.26 12:02:12 - [231] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Avvy wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: You don't realize it, but of the two of us, I'm the one arguing for the continuation of EVE Online and CCP (by CCP learning the lessons of the past, which they haven't done as evidenced by SP trading). What CCP is actually doing is reckless. The difference between now and monocle-gate is that people are so used to being juiced by corporations now they don't recognize it when it's happening. So what you are saying is that you know better than those involved at CCP. Great! Maybe they should hire you. Given CCPs track record of woeful decisions thats not a big thing? There are good people at CCP but that matters little if theyre not making the decisions. Happens all the time - Hubble - engineers wanted to check mirror measurements management didnt. Challanger - engineers wanted to wait for warmer weather the night before launch over concerns o rings would freeze, management didnt. Im sure there are people at CCP shaking their heads at this lameness. I think about this all the time, I can't imagine how painful it must be for people to watch who are not in a position to change this shameful trend.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1086	Posted - 2016.02.26 18:47:10 - [232] - Quote When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 56	Posted - 2016.02.26 20:34:51 - [233] - Quote Ravana 729 wrote: Ok first of all Eve is not a sandbox. .. (snip) I think you may not understand what the definition of a sandbox is. All those things you pointed out were game mechanics and nothing to do with 'sandbox worthiness'. The sandbox concept, from a game design perspective is: The entire game player base is in the same universe, no doppelganger split of the universe across servers to handle player load or locality issues. The rules are the same for everyone, but everyone decides how to use and play with the rules, the game itself does not attempt to control the players beyond the interaction and boundary restriction rules. A sandbox is always at risk for players inventing unforeseen ways to play and use/abuse the rules. CCP calls this 'emergent gameplay' and encourages it. (That's risky for a company, most are control freaks so CCP is very different there!) None of the points you raise really counter any of the list above, so EVE is a sandbox and the most open one I've ever seen in a game, much less an MMO. The skill system, good or bad, appears to be a 'level system' replacement that most other MMO's use. If you were a tabletop RPG player, games like Call of Cthulu, GURPS, the Hero System, etc. all had experience points you could either earn and add at will to your character, or in the case of CoC, you got to check a skill every time you successfully did it and then rolled against it after the adventure. If you 'failed' that skill roll, you actually learned something and went up a point in that skill (you generally learn more from failure than success), some GM's reversed that and required a double failure of the skill (fail at first for the check, fail at the second check, this let skills that were low climb faster.) The point is, all games with characters generally have some kind of skill increase system, either levels, roll checks, experience points, or in EVE's case, skill training tree which is active every second of every day, something most other games don't do. So all CCP has done now, as has been stated in this thread and many others, is to allow those skills to be sold and redistributed to others that want faster learning of them and are willing to pay cash for it. That's good for CCP and the players. Yes, I see the reason for those that had to stay subscribed for so long to get high skill chars and it chaps them that rookies can now equal them. However, it's up to the player to play the game their way. The "New Rich" types shouldn't be much of a threat and the "Old Rich" can recall the glory days and how hard it was to get there as well as be proud they did it the hard way. This horse is so dead, the flies are even done with it and the bacteria are starting to feel like it's not worth their effort. Nothing left to beat folks. Maybe post on the feedback thread some positive changes you might like to see to the skill system.
Johan Civire Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1072	Posted - 2016.02.26 21:20:39 - [234] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake. That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase. And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers. Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1088	Posted - 2016.02.26 22:01:20 - [235] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake. That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase. And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers. Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Actually, it does. World of Darkness would have been another income generator for the company. More income = more money to allocate to projects.
Infinity Ziona Cloakers 2405	Posted - 2016.02.27 03:16:23 - [236] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Johan Civire wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: When CCP chose DUST over World of Darkness, that was their biggest mistake. That has nothing to do with eve. On topic the numbers are stable for now. And a little increase. And lets hope it stop the drop in numbers. Source : http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Actually, it does. World of Darkness would have been another income generator for the company. More income = more money to allocate to projects. Imagine Microsoft on finding their Windows flagship was popular didnt create Windows 95, XP etc etc. Or the Ipod was never turned into the Iphone. CCP never creating an EvE 2 is the biggest mistake CCP made not Dust or WoD. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Daerrol Death By Design Did he say Jump 294	Posted - 2016.02.27 05:46:48 - [237] - Quote People need to realize you could already do this for less IRL money than it costs now through the character bazaar. Used to get a very nice char for much less until SP trading came out. You just didn't know it was a 4 day old player who bought my Titan pilot, now you get to know. It's amazing how much agony people get when the veil is lifted but everything is pretty mcuh exactly as it was. (actually SP is now much more expensive to buy so likely less people will do it.)
Ravana 729 Imperial Guardians 25	Posted - 2016.02.27 21:41:32 - [238] - Quote The word emergent in game design doesn't mean what you think it does. It's a word used to describe the phenomenon of eerie realism that emerges when certain elements are brought together in just the right way. Sim City was one of the most famous games to do this, many other games can be observed creating this phenomenon. I havn't actually seen a lot of it in Eve, probably because of the limited amount of interaction one can have with the world of Eve itself. I don't consider interaction with people to be emergent gameplay, it's just playing with other humans, therefore it is real, but whether it's emergent depends on how good your sense of imagination is. If you're good at this then you will experience a special kind of emergence. But you can get this same kind of emergence from LARP and FPS . It isn't part of a sandbox experience. One world is not a sandbox, even considering that there are private Eve servers and parallel universe instances of Eve. They have no bearing on the gameplay at all. How you got to this conclusion is beyond me. Maybe because you think that you end up dealing with more players? With the way servers are linked on most other games now it just isn't that unique or revolutionary, and it certainly isn't a part of a "sandbox" A sandbox experience is one in which you can choose how you want to play the game, who you want to be. Some of that IS there, but most of it isn't. The very important parts that have to do with Pvp do not exist. I think this is why so many new players go into trading and mining. The game needs an actual game designer to get in there and fix the power creep that has gone on and the bad game design that has been applied in an attempt to fix it. Someone who could design a fun board or card game from the ground up - not a programmer or artist, or someone who can do anything technical, but a real game designer. That's what game designers are for - they make stuff fun, and they know what words like emergence and sandbox mean.


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