Just wondering what's on the drawing board. You buffed hybrids a little bit, but most Gallente ships and their bonuses are still messed up. things to address:

- shield vs. armor tank; armor rigs
(armor tanking is generally incompatible with mobility and high dps because of speed penalties and low slot usage; everyone may be attempting to fly half-assed shield tanks, but the bonuses and slots dont match)
- speed
- active vs passive tanking
- ammo
- medium hybrids (especially rails; they are awful; there isnt a single ship that can setup a decent tank with a rack of 250mm's)

over the last 3 years, Gallente ships have been getting torn apart by nano Drakes and Canes (for example). Gallente have the worst possible damage projection in the game. will this race's ships become viable once again (in comparison to the rest), or do you guys need more metrics (serious question) ?

there's absolutely no reason why rails should not be able to do what arties and pulses can.

*cough* Beams *cough*

Removing Rig Penalties would be a big start.

Between Gallente Armor Ships with Armor Rigs that don't hurt there Speed, Astronautics Rigs that increase it w/o hurting there tank and Hybrid Rigs that can be fit with a rack of Neutrons well that would definitely help a lot.

As long as Arties with there Massive Alpha and Selectable Dmg Types and Scorch that has the fleet range with greater tracking and Dmg Exist then Rails and Beams will always be a foot note.

there's absolutely no reason why rails should not be able to do what arties and pulses can.

Dear devs, can you make rigs not stacking penalized against modules?

Every module is stacking penalized. But rigs are modifications to ship's hulls itself, this is why they should not be affected by modules. It will make every other rig more useful than plain armor rigs.

Because armor rigs don't have serious drawbacks and give maximum result with less penalty, because they affect one of four resists, modules plug half of it and rigs cover holes.

Possibly resist rigs should give rainbow protection in smaller amounts. Max hit points rigs are too good. Active tanking rigs are not too popular.

85% of the rigs have no use, time to change bonuses and redesign the concept once again

I'd still like to see Hybrids redesigned.

Blasters = Slow rate of fire, HUGE alpha.
Rails = Very high rate of fire, low alpha, good DPS.

Basically the exact opposite of Auto Cannon and Artillery.

For mobility:

Higher acceleration.


For defense 2 possibilities come to mind.

Hyper small sig radius (explained by their more "organic" lines)
Structure tanking that isn't actually a joke.

I'd still like to see Hybrids redesigned.

Blasters = Slow rate of fire, HUGE alpha.
Rails = Very high rate of fire, low alpha, good DPS.

Basically the exact opposite of Auto Cannon and Artillery.

For mobility:

Higher acceleration.


For defense 2 possibilities come to mind.

Hyper small sig radius (explained by their more "organic" lines)
Structure tanking that isn't actually a joke.

rate of fire is actually an interesting way to justify bringing ranges back into line.

I'd propose that much of what ought to happen for balance is to consider ewar (inspired by your sig radius idea)...

Firstly, ECM needs to be changed to be a 100% effective -1 target slot instead of chance based -all target slots. .

[quote=Ranger 1]Caldari should have slower locking speeds and lower base targeting range, making damps most effective versus caldari

The race that specializes in rails and missiles, I.E. the longest range weapons in the game... should have the shortest targeting range?

I like a lot of the theory behind mkints proposal, justification should be somewhat apparent as to why a races EW capabilities have specialized the way they have. To attain that might require some reshuffling, or perhaps reworking the underlying mechanics of how the EW works specifically.

If Caldari (for example) could retain their longer lock range, but be more vulnerable to the range decreasing effect of Sensor Damps than other races due to how they worked....

I would require a great deal of thought, but it is a worthy goal. It would be nice to look at a races strengths and see a logical cause/effect relationship as to why it developed that way based on who their enemies are.

Edit: Another reason to consider digging this deep into the mechanics of things would be that weapon balance and EW balance between the various races have always had fundamental issues. It might be wise to bite the bullet and devote most of an expansion into reworking both systems to work hand in glove in a logical fashion.

And no, the 100% chance to -1 target slot would not be any less useless than any of the other ewar types.

I'd still like to see Hybrids redesigned.

Blasters = Slow rate of fire, HUGE alpha.
Rails = Very high rate of fire, low alpha, good DPS.

Basically the exact opposite of Auto Cannon and Artillery.

For mobility:

Higher acceleration.


For defense 2 possibilities come to mind.

Hyper small sig radius (explained by their more "organic" lines)
Structure tanking that isn't actually a joke.

Just wondering what's on the drawing board. You buffed hybrids a little bit, but most Gallente ships and their bonuses are still messed up. things to address:

Uh, I don't think you were paying attention.

All Gallente ships were buffed in both speed and agility.

You're right, it would be far more useless.

You devote 5 slots to remove 5 of my targeting slots. I can target 6 things. You have wasted 5 slots and I can still kill you just as easily as before.

mkint makes a good point on the ECM; "because of falcon" exists for a reason.
Moving the "I'll spin a coin and if it's a heads, you're jammed - oh and I get to flick the coin while it's spinning" to a "I declare my ECM on you" system is a good thing. All other forms of ewarfare are all guarenteed to do what it says on the box.
Most ships don't have 10 target slots either.

As for balancing the races...
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon with the rock/paper/scissors ewar suggestion.
Every race has two kinds of ewarfare though (one offensive, one practical), so maybe we're talking about a two handed rock/paper/scissors scenario.
As a reminder:
- Amarr have capacitor warfare and tracking disruption.
- Gallente have interdiction (points) and sensor dampeners.
- Minmatar have Target Painting and Webbing.

- Caldari have ECM and... well... would you look at that; they don't have a secondary ewarfare type! HERECY!
What could be done about this if the current ECM was changed to be inline with the rest of the ewar forms?

And how exactly do target painter modules remove 6 or more ships from a fight single handedly with a single boat?

How many tracking enhancers do you need on a single target to be invulnerable from attack?

How many damps boats do you need in a fleet to completely shut down an opposing fleet?

So, maybe T2 ECM should be -2 targets (most ewar that's ever useful on any target due to stacking penalties is 4 or 5.) But ECM is broken. It's unbalanced and that it remains the way it is in the game is a major sign of dev incompetence. And arguing "omg, my ECM solopwnmobile might no longer be all-poweful" is the most incompetent argument you can make in favor of it.

edit: but this isn't a 'nerf ecm' thread... this is a 'balance the races' thread. Back on topic, does anyone else think the core of the balancing should be focused on the rock/paper/scissors ewar philosophy? Or what kinds of ewar vs guns changes would need to happen to balance the races?

. ECM brings the role of force multiplier to the game and in that role it is perfectly balanced.

The amount of dumb in this thread is astounding.

The OP does bring up some fine points, but he's wrong on some of them.

The Talos is the only not being used, due to having to be at 0 and no tank, you might as well just get a Brutix.

250mm rails do hae a slight problem, but not as big as your making it out to be.

the problem is essentially the same: why fly anything other than Canes and Drakes?

I'd still like to see Hybrids redesigned.

Blasters = Slow rate of fire, HUGE alpha.

And by this, you mean "omg, my wtfsolopwnmobile will be balanced in line with the other ships! no way!"

Actually, I'm not particularly against 1 ewar ship shutting down multiple targets (i.e. force multiplication). The reason I'm particularly against ECM as it exists is because it's not balanced. No other race has a force multiplier at all if judged by the same standards. No other race has an ewar where the only defense of against it can completely fail to do it's job. No other race has an ewar where the mere threat of the possibility of encountering that ewar forces the defenders to decide if they will waste a slot on a defensive module that doesn't really do anything. And finally, ECM kills opportunities for creative fleet compositions and tactics (and rock/paper/scissors.)

And by this, you mean "omg, my wtfsolopwnmobile will be balanced in line with the other ships! no way!"

Actually, I'm not particularly against 1 ewar ship shutting down multiple targets (i.e. force multiplication). The reason I'm particularly against ECM as it exists is because it's not balanced. No other race has a force multiplier at all if judged by the same standards. No other race has an ewar where the only defense of against it can completely fail to do it's job. No other race has an ewar where the mere threat of the possibility of encountering that ewar forces the defenders to decide if they will waste a slot on a defensive module that doesn't really do anything. And finally, ECM kills opportunities for creative fleet compositions and tactics (and rock/paper/scissors.)

Speed boost and agility are nice. Still cannot catch targets for blaster love and hugs is the point I believe, amongst other things.

Yes we got a speed boost.

No, it wasn't enough to get us into engagement range with blasters before we pop. The main ***** about gallente is the supposed focus on blasters.

Scorch is the new Beams.

My gallente alt now has 200+ kills with a rail Talos, stop whining and innovate beyond trying to use cookie cutter blaster fits on ******* everything like all the other nubs.

My mega out runs and out manovers most BCs it meets now and the combat range of blasters is perfectly fine so long as you dont try to fly them like an auto ship.

My gallente alt now has 200+ kills with a rail Talos, stop whining and innovate beyond trying to use cookie cutter blaster fits on ******* everything like all the other nubs.

your solution, posted on another post, would totally remove the "force multiplier" role of ECM, making it a hindrance no bigger than a TP, since you would need to focus all your ewar in a single ship, and make it totally useless vs ships like logis that can lock 10 targets. And "creative fleet composition and tactics" is a bit relative. It is possible to make a creative fleet with ECM, that can beat a bigger fleet with no way to counter it, and that's what ECM is supposed to do.

Well the fact you put a close range gun in with long range guns should tell you pulse is pretty broken.-á

wrong, pulses are still relatively close range, with DPS dwindling severely as you switch to farther optimal crystals, and they are easy to overpower in a long term engagement IN FACT the biggest weakness of amarr pulse ships is their ******** levels of cap usage which IMO i belive is enough of a counterbalance to their high volley ability.

though arties have high alpha AND optimal and have NO excuse.

My gallente alt now has 200+ kills with a rail Talos, stop whining and innovate beyond trying to use cookie cutter blaster fits on ******* everything like all the other nubs.

Removing Rig Penalties would be a big start.

Between Gallente Armor Ships with Armor Rigs that don't hurt there Speed, Astronautics Rigs that increase it w/o hurting there tank and Hybrid Rigs that can be fit with a rack of Neutrons well that would definitely help a lot.

As long as Arties with there Massive Alpha and Selectable Dmg Types and Scorch that has the fleet range with greater tracking and Dmg Exist then Rails and Beams will always be a foot note.

Can you imagine an armor tanked hurricane with no loss to speed? All that would do is make minmatar even more OP.

The Talos is the only not being used, due to having to be at 0 and no tank, you might as well just get a Brutix.

Someone else posted a no-relock delay idea that might be acceptable if:

All other racial ewar boats had a 100% role bonus to their ewar (thus providing that force multiplier mechanic to other races). and ECCM had some benefit in addition to countering ECM.

ECM is a bad mechanic, from the randomness, to the counter, to it's ability to 100% completely remove someone from a fight rather than reduce their effectiveness.

I was going to suggest earlier that what if ECM, instead of breaking locks ECM had a 100% chance of offlining random modules? ECCM would be changed to reduce the capacitor needed to online those modules (and maybe a scripted secondary benefit, like reducing heat from overloading?) I'm not sure how this would balance with rock/paper/scissors ewar between the races, but either way, pretty much ANY other idea is better than ECM as it is now.

Hmmm, as a secondary effect of ECCM I could see it reducing Sig Radius.

Sig radius is a reflection of a ships electronic signature, I could see the distortion put out by ECCM effectively having a low key but noticeable effect on lock times, missile accuracy, scanning efficiency, etc.

give blasters ships the ability to "blink" 20km towards it's target, at great cap cost. there, problem solved.

or, easier to implement I guess, give them a 10x bonus on mwd overheating.