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Bounty - Karin Midular - Dead or Alive

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Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:55:00 - [1] Edited by: Maggot on 02/02/2007 16:52:56 Karin Midular Wanted - Dead or Alive In response to the execution of the Defiant's Captain, Karishal Muritor, the leader of the Minmatar Republic, Karin Midular, has been declared the number one enemy of the Ushra'khan. A one ISK bounty is to be placed on her head. This value representing her worth to the Matari people, rounded up. I look forward to her arrival at Unity Station, dead or alive. Maggot.
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:07:00 - [2] So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. It looks like I was right. You will be reclaimed, one way or the other. Amarr Victor
Spiderweb Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:30:00 - [3] Edited by: Spiderweb on 02/02/2007 17:27:33 Im on it brother. *To the Republic Fleet officials:* I have worked for you for a long time. My times in Rens and Lustrevik fighting for your cause against the Sansha drones and Amattar scums will be remembered as hectic and heavy with Workload. I thought your cause as noble, its only now I realise you were using me for your twisted advantage. YOU BETRAYED US ALL You betrayed your own people. Please remove your 8.24 standing with me from your treacherous Republic Fleet villains. Its a stain on my history now. I have set all your drones of hypocricy and treachery to -5 and now you will face the concequences of the death of my warrior Brother. Muritor Karishal will be remembered for the Father he was. The father of courage on dedicated warriors. The father of Honour and true belief to the value of freedom. The father of us all, who fight, no matter the opposition, no matter the corruption and the political hurdles, no matter the faces of evil that climb up to the stage everyday. Take heed brothers, Its the rot within that allows slavers hold slaves. It took me sometime to escape the twisted nether of Caldari corporate control and find brothers and sisters with true Human spirit. Our hearts and souls are bleeding, for today we took the most dirty blow. The enemy within showed its true face and smiled before the death of a part of our soul, part of our spirit. Your death, brother Muritor, is our call for vengeance. ----------------------------------------------- "For today, the arm of Unity clenched its fist..."
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Pezzle So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. It looks like I was right. You will be reclaimed, one way or the other. Amarr Victor What is said: We are betrayed, the betrayer must die. CVA Translation: blah blah blah, you are slaves. Original i'm sure. This is internal Matari Politics and none of your concern if you're simply going to 'reclaim us'. Rest assured Midular may be at the top of the kill list but you and the rest of your Amarrian irregulars are a close second for me.
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:37:00 - [5] I am interested in what EM and NMTZ have to say about this development... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Sapphrine What is said: We are betrayed, the betrayer must die. CVA Translation: blah blah blah, you are slaves. Original i'm sure. This is internal Matari Politics and none of your concern if you're simply going to 'reclaim us'. Rest assured Midular may be at the top of the kill list but you and the rest of your Amarrian irregulars are a close second for me. Actually, YOU are the betrayers for turning against your lawful government. That is sort of the point, the traitor captain was killed for HIS betrayal and in turn you attack your own. Following your own logic, you should die. And it is most certainly a concern of the Empire. Feel free to die fighting your own Republic.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.02 17:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Pezzle So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. Nonsense. The Ushra'Khan are to be commended for being clear-eyed enough to see that the state that was once created as a shelter and advocate for their people has become simply another machine that will do literally anything to perpetuate its existence. There has been a betrayal here but it is not on the part of the Ushra'Khan or anyone else who fights for true freedom. I wish the hunters of those who live only to oppress all good fortune. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Recruitment
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 18:23:00 - [8] Edited by: Pezzle on 02/02/2007 18:23:21 Ahh my dear Cosmo You can call it nonsense, but that does not make it so. The Ushra Khan attacks Imperial forces (rebellion) they attack neutral ships and peaceful folk in Providence (piracy) and turn against the government they once acknowledged (traitors) It is quite clear to see for those who are active in the area, perhaps not so clear to those so far away. added And just to be precise I have called the Ushra Khan rebels and Pirates before this incident, and asked how long before they turned traitor. It seems we have the answer.
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2007.02.02 18:28:00 - [9] Maben System - Emperor Family's station - Ordo Quaesitoris Headquarter: The light beeped red again, and Sepherim was very surprised to read what it had found. Were the Ushra'Khan willing to betray everything they said to love and protect so quickly? + -I once thought you were noble oponents of the Empire. Then you betrayed your own and joined a traitor, and I thought you were simple enemies of the Empire. Now you make clear that your rage is so big that you are simply enemies. Enemies of everything. Enemies of the ideas and people you said to protect, and enemies of those that oppose to them, and to everything in between. I pity you.- --------------------- Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.02 18:35:00 - [10] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Pezzle So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. Nonsense. The Ushra'Khan are to be commended for being clear-eyed enough to see that the state that was once created as a shelter and advocate for their people has become simply another machine that will do literally anything to perpetuate its existence. There has been a betrayal here but it is not on the part of the Ushra'Khan or anyone else who fights for true freedom. I wish the hunters of those who live only to oppress all good fortune. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction has lost all rights to criticise other entities out there for "perpetuating their own existance" the day you paid off pirates to protect your precious dreadnought. The Republic knows that it would, at the moment and probably for a very long time, lose if it came to a war between the empire and the republic, and there would be very little gained and much lost. Muritor betrayed the republic when he stole military hardware, and he has continued to betray the republic and its people by attempting to provoke the Amarr empire into a full blown conflict with the republic. The punishment for both those crimes was, and rightly so, death. You and I may not agree with the method of execution, but his death was justified. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Dallan Arethi Gallente Phoenix Wing Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.02 18:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Dallan Arethi on 02/02/2007 18:55:16 Edit: typos. Sigh. Please note that I do not represent the views of the Electus, despite my alliance ticker. Originally by: Maggot Edited by: Maggot on 02/02/2007 16:52:56 In response to the execution of the Defiant's Captain, Karishal Muritor, the leader of the Minmatar Republic, Karin Midular, has been declared the number one enemy of the Ushra'khan. To quote an old commentary on the disunity among the Matari that has stuck with me: the only ones laughing are the Amarr - who should be heading that list of yours, though I suppose the enduring lack of an Emperor makes choosing one in particular difficult. I hope that revenge and rage are not descending over your eyes to blind you to the true enemy. I wonder if someone who stole capital ships from the Ushra'Khan to return to the Republic be treated any more gently. I also wonder who in the Republic government chose such a frankly ridiculous and inexplicable method to redress the crime, and why. Being a relative outsider, I think, leaves me free to ask both these questions at once. Hopefully they'll get answers. Regards, Lieutenant Dallan Arethi Diplomatic Relations Officer, Phoenix Wing
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 19:18:29 I beg of you, Ushra'Khan, please back off on this hostility on the Republic, before things go to far. Give our leadership at least the chance to respond to your call for re-election. Please - I have never in my life been this serious with any plea. Do not let matters go any further into this direction. Official comments will follow in due time. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:24:00 - [13] I find it highly enlightening that the Amarrians herein have gone from referring to Republic space as unclaimed territory to defending Midular's government and referring to them as the "lawful government". I can think of no more damning testimony of Midular's allegiance or stronger justification for Maggot's gesture. The Minmatar would do well to heed Maggot's call and emulate the Amarrians - kill the cancer at the top and go leaderless until "God" chooses a path. Fortunately, Malaetu is a little more hands-on and reliable than the Amarrian "God", who still has yet to return their calls ...
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Pezzle So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. Nonsense. The Ushra'Khan are to be commended for being clear-eyed enough to see that the state that was once created as a shelter and advocate for their people has become simply another machine that will do literally anything to perpetuate its existence. There has been a betrayal here but it is not on the part of the Ushra'Khan or anyone else who fights for true freedom. I wish the hunters of those who live only to oppress all good fortune. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction has lost all rights to criticise other entities out there for "perpetuating their own existance" the day you paid off pirates to protect your precious dreadnought. The Republic knows that it would, at the moment and probably for a very long time, lose if it came to a war between the empire and the republic, and there would be very little gained and much lost. Muritor betrayed the republic when he stole military hardware, and he has continued to betray the republic and its people by attempting to provoke the Amarr empire into a full blown conflict with the republic. The punishment for both those crimes was, and rightly so, death. You and I may not agree with the method of execution, but his death was justified. Your argument could not make less sense if you phrased it in grunts and obscene gestures. Are you honestly attempting to compare the murder of a leader of the Matari Liberation movement in a vain effort to appease the Empire and stave off an inevitable conflict with paying a bounty to a pirate organization in order to preserve the lives of thousands of men and women? What are you putting in your spiced wine? _ Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit
Shira d'Radonis Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:44:00 - [15] Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 02/02/2007 19:42:09 Ushra'Khan, your actions will lead to civil war if you do not rein in your more volatile elements NOW. Did the Republic fleet conduct itself poorly? Yes. Could this have been handled better? Yes. But did Ushra'Khan have the right to attack Republic Fleet ships? Absolutely not. And if that weren't bad enough, maggot has now put up this bounty? Remember that you do hold influence with the people. If someone were to carry out this ridiculous order, it would lead to war. And the truth is you wouldn't be able to control it. What are you even fighting for anymore? Will you simply carve out a new piece of territory to move the slaves you free? Or are your thoughts more sinister? Do you intend to turn on the Republic and overthrow it to shape it into the society you think it should be? You lack the power to overthrow the Republic, and you both lack the power to fight each other and prevent the Amarr from exploiting the internal struggle. The wolves are at the door. Now is the time more than ever for unity. If you fight each other, rest assured that Amarrian ships will be around Matar in short order. Consider what you do in the coming days and weeks very carefully. You can still turn back from civil war, but EVERYONE is going to have to admit fault and everyone is going to have to let a few bad guys get away with their crimes. It is the only way. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Witch Doctor I find it highly enlightening that the Amarrians herein have gone from referring to Republic space as unclaimed territory to defending Midular's government and referring to them as the "lawful government". I can think of no more damning testimony of Midular's allegiance or stronger justification for Maggot's gesture. The Minmatar would do well to heed Maggot's call and emulate the Amarrians - kill the cancer at the top and go leaderless until "God" chooses a path. Fortunately, Malaetu is a little more hands-on and reliable than the Amarrian "God", who still has yet to return their calls ... In fact it is the rebels and traitors (UK forces and the like) that had at one point accepted the leadership of the Minmatar government (something that would be lawful to them). It is not a defense of that government by the Amarr. It IS an illustration of the depths these causes will sink to in order to push a disloyal agenda and revel in violence.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.02 19:47:00 - [17] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 02/02/2007 19:44:58 Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Are you honestly attempting to compare the murder of a leader of the Matari Liberation movement in a vain effort to appease the Empire and stave off an inevitable conflict with paying a bounty to a pirate organization in order to preserve the lives of thousands of men and women? What are you putting in your spiced wine? Are you honestly saying that paying a ransom in a vain effort to appease a bunch of pirates (a ransom that will only fund new pirate attacks) in order to save a few thousand men and women is not comparable to assassinating a traitor to the republic in an effort to prevent an outbreak of war against the Republic in order to save trillions of matari lives? So maybe it's not my spiced wine that has been tainted with drugs and poisons. In both cases it's about saving lives in the present. In both cases it's about delaying the fight until the moment that you are ready to fight on your terms instead of being forced into a conflict that you can't win. At least that's how I percieve it. I have no illusions that if the current leadership of the republic had the required manpower and ships it would simply sit on their tribal behinds while millions of matari are enslaved in the empire. In the future that might change as the situation changes, but that's the present situation. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:00:00 - [18] I'll deal with the less important issue first. The suggestion that a private freecaptain's decision to preserve ship and crew from destruction at the hands of pirates by using a fraction of her personal wealth has anything to do with perpetuating the existence of the Star Fraction is utterly absurd. Do the Star Fraction treat with, work with and deal with those beyond the law and even those who actually style themselves 'pirates'? Yes, we do. It's not a pungent criticism of us and it never has been. We do not aid pirates, or anyone else for that matter, against neutrals with force or intelligence. We never have and we never will. This particular gang profited for the moment because of an error on the part of an individual. That individual took responsibility for her error and learned a valuable lesson. Her conduct was entirely in keeping with the ideology of the Star Fraction. You may disagree with it but be under no illusions that it somehow invalidates anything we say. It does not. Originally by: Pezzle You can call it nonsense, but that does not make it so. The Ushra Khan attacks Imperial forces (rebellion) they attack neutral ships and peaceful folk in Providence (piracy) and turn against the government they once acknowledged (traitors) First, I have no issue with the Ushra'Khan being called rebels in those terms and I strongly doubt they would. Second, you can accuse the Ushra'Khan of piracy by your definition of who is neutral and who is peaceful but that only results in you laying yourself open to accusations of piracy by other definitions of who is neutral and peaceful. I am not going to indulge in such meaningless name-calling as I do not, for what it is worth, regard either the Ushra'Khan or CVA as pirate organizations. I merely suggest that you be careful the paint you liberally apply to others does not drip back on yourself. Third, you clearly do not know so much about the Ushra'Khan as you credit yourself. The Ushra'Khan is a broad organisation of Minmatar freedom fighters that has long contained elements that are pro-Republic, anti-Republic or simply indifferent to the Republic (as it has been indifferent to the cause of combating slavery by any rational standard of effectiveness). I know this because I personally know many Minmatar freedom fighters. To label the entire Ushra'Khan as 'traitors' before a government to which they had not, in fact, as an organization sworn undying fealty is utterly absurd. One can say many things about the Ushra'Khan but it has ever been my observation that they have one loyalty to which they have ever remained true: loyalty to the cause of freedom for their people and, in fact, all who are enslaved by the rapacity of the Amarrian Empire, the Khanid Kingdom and that miserable little puppet-state in Derelik region. Traitors? Nonsense. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Recruitment
Lucius Lefebvre Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 02/02/2007 19:44:58 Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Are you honestly attempting to compare the murder of a leader of the Matari Liberation movement in a vain effort to appease the Empire and stave off an inevitable conflict with paying a bounty to a pirate organization in order to preserve the lives of thousands of men and women? What are you putting in your spiced wine? Are you honestly saying that paying a ransom in a vain effort to appease a bunch of pirates (a ransom that will only fund new pirate attacks) in order to save a few thousand men and women is not comparable to assassinating a traitor to the republic in an effort to prevent an outbreak of war against the Republic in order to save trillions of matari lives? So maybe it's not my spiced wine that has been tainted with drugs and poisons. In both cases it's about saving lives in the present. In both cases it's about delaying the fight until the moment that you are ready to fight on your terms instead of being forced into a conflict that you can't win. At least that's how I percieve it. I have no illusions that if the current leadership of the republic had the required manpower and ships it would simply sit on their tribal behinds while millions of matari are enslaved in the empire. In the future that might change as the situation changes, but that's the present situation. To my knowledge, the effort wasn't in vain. And, given the Star Fraction's position on piracy, it's difficult to distinguish between the payment of ISK in return for free passage and, say, the activation of a defensive module, where both result in the pilot's ship remaining intact.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 02/02/2007 19:18:29 I beg of you, Ushra'Khan, please back off on this hostility on the Republic, before things go to far. Give our leadership at least the chance to respond to your call for re-election./quote] They have 3 weeks. Remember we have waited before from word from the Republic ... a long time we have waited and yet still our brothers rot. ----------------------------------------- Now recruiting.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:15:00 - [21] I see no mention of three weeks on Maggot's post above... -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I see no mention of three weeks on Maggot's post above... Is one woman the republic? ----------------------------------------- Now recruiting.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:45:00 - [23] When she is the head of state, and has a bounty on her head as the representative of that state, hell yes. You mean there are further threats by U'K that I should worry about? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Meklon Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:45:00 - [24] A few days planetside and it seems those matters important to me flare up once again. Expect an official Electus Matari response shortly, however I refuse to let my personal response be picked apart and as such refrain from letting it be known. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
Wanoah Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 21:58:00 - [25] Frankly, I'd like to see Karin Midular taken out and shot, but I'd settle for someone tabling a motion of no confidence in Parliament. The leadership of the Republic needs to understand that men and women of conscience cannot stand by while their kinsfolk are sold out by the people who are supposed to represent them. We have to speak and we have to act. I would also point out that loyalty to the Minmatar peoples is not synonymous with loyalty to the Minmatar Republic. By the same token, loyalty to the Republic is not synonymous with loyalty to its leadership. Be careful who you give your loyalty to, and be careful who you trust. There are people in power who have shown their fangs now. Watch your backs, people, 'cos knives are incoming.
Rhaguvir Khan Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.02 22:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 02/02/2007 19:42:09 Ushra'Khan, your actions will lead to civil war if you do not rein in your more volatile elements NOW. Did the Republic fleet conduct itself poorly? Yes. Could this have been handled better? Yes. But did Ushra'Khan have the right to attack Republic Fleet ships? Absolutely not. ... I have been there. It is NOT, that we did not ask the Republic soldiers to cease fire! We begged them to not force us to attack them! We haven't been at this meeting without reason. We have been asked to protect Karishal (not from him, but from a loyal officer) and we explained to the republicans, that we do not intend to attack them as long as they won't harm Karishal. But still... after all the begs for ceasefire, they killed Karishal without leaving a chance to him! We even hadn't big firepower with us, because we wanted to solve this conflict peacefully by just preventing the ships from attack. But we couldn't let them leave as nothing had happened! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.02 22:23:00 - [27] I have given the statements I intended to on the topic. Clearly the Minmatar factions have issues to work out among themselves. Cosmo, if you really want to continue this discussion, perhaps it should be elsewhere. This hardly seems the place to argue over what the definition of 'was' is, if you understand my meaning.
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.02 23:38:00 - [28] Ushra'Khan, stop and think for a minute. What you are about to do could tear the Republic apart, inviting another Amarr invasion. I state this now. I will not fight in this civil war. I have made the Republic my home, and I will never participate in tearing it apart. Solve this dispute with words. Save your ammo for the Amarr. __________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:07:00 - [29] Edited by: Hakera on 03/02/2007 00:05:42 Corruption has spread too deep. The water turns black and the skies darken. The evil that has infected the government and those abusing their position of power must step down and face justice. Your towers will fall, your wealth will be squandered, the foundations of your lifeforce will be wittered away as the people rise against the brother who dared to turn on his own. It has always fallen to us to make the difficult choices, the ones others are not brave enough to make, but make them we have for the good of the galaxy. Our people cannot rot in the quagmyre of the republic no longer. You may of silenced one man and his brave crew Midular, but you will find it hard to silence us all! You have never felt the weight of the storm mustering yonder and when it comes crashing down, be ready to meet Matar as the gates will not bid you enter. Your spirit will disappear into nothing, sucked into the abyss to join your allies in the underworld where you will be forever tormented by the demons of your own making. Our traditions allow for nine days of mourning. When that ends, the skies above Matar will fill with the song of the rightous. We are coming home to put our house in order.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:02:00 - [30] Ah, yes. Sure. Only the Ushra'Khan, who live removed from the Republic only caring about their own business for about a year now, know what's best for the Republic. That made me laugh. Again. Now recruiting!
NightmoonEagle Minmatar Matari BackBone	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:06:00 - [31] Well, Well. I do believe my comments from the post on http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=351169&page=2 are appearing to come true. Internal war and conflict appears on the horizon. People need to learn to take heed of warnings. No matter how "out-of-date" a post is when a response is submitted. My words then may have been directed at Elsebeth. But the message was both clear and precise. A war between the Alliances, no matter the reason - cause - the outcome WILL be the same. No one will be left to fight the Amarrians when the time comes. NmE [personal views which are not representative of any faction, alliance, or corporation that I may or may not be affiliated with at the time of posting]
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Tharrn That made me laugh. Again. only in as much as you and your zealot freinds enforce their will upon the people from the furthest edges of their own empire. Make no pretence that the 15 jumps between Unity and home are anything but short. We never left our home, we simply moved the symbol of our defiance closer to yours :) As ever, you enforcer puppets of the old regime are nothing but an inconvienience who occasionally get the in way. That is no laughing matter! And none of this is your concern. Stick to what you know best, your little in space sermons
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:25:00 - [33] If Karin Midular is prepared to order the assassination of a prominent Freedom Fighter they she should find this as no suprise at all. If you choose to live by the sword then you must be prepared to die by the sword. Welcome to consequence. A wise man once said, "People should not be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people." We want re-elections. We also want justice. >> RECRUITING <<
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:29:00 - [34] I would ask all those NMTZ and "loyal" Matari who have replied here one question: Huh? The Defeiants were a terrorist organisation, outlawed by the Republic as enemies and first and foremost they STOLE from the Republic. Are you saying that you in fact support those who steal from the Republic fleet to further their own goals? Do you support traitors and see your own government as only a resource to be stolen from?
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:16:00 - [35] As usual the violence prone terrorists want to keep on killing. Midular has saved the lives of those who followed this criminal by removing their motivation for obedience. Now they can return to their lives and if lucky be rescued by the SPCS and other Amarrians. A much better life than being a terrorist. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Thomas Maleficus Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:09:00 - [36] If you think they removed the motivation, you are sadly mistaken. In my view the pilots of teh Defiants were enraged at the death of Muritor and his death seemed to reinforce thier desire to continue on the same path more determined than ever. Pirates stole my signature.
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Archbishop As usual the violence prone terrorists want to keep on killing. Midular has saved the lives of those who followed this criminal by removing their motivation for obedience. Now they can return to their lives and if lucky be rescued by the SPCS and other Amarrians. A much better life than being a terrorist. Archbishop nearly dies laughing Thank you for that. You appear to have found a funny side to this that I hadn't. you actually think that anyone involved is going to just give up and go home after this murder? Do you think that people will just bow down and accept this assassination without response. There will be blood and the people shall rise. Let us see how well you Amarr dogs last when you have the full Republic united behind a leader that actually wishes the freedom of ALL our people. The end of your time is near.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:53:00 - [38] Billions would die and you would still lose. Your republic lacks the strength to defeat the Mandate, let alone the whole Empire. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Tar Kovsky Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I would ask all those NMTZ and "loyal" Matari who have replied here one question: Huh? The Defeiants were a terrorist organisation, outlawed by the Republic as enemies and first and foremost they STOLE from the Republic. Are you saying that you in fact support those who steal from the Republic fleet to further their own goals? Do you support traitors and see your own government as only a resource to be stolen from? I would ask all those NMTZ and "loyal" Matari who support Midular: Does it not bother you that you are on the same side of this issue as every slaver who has posted here? Are you saying that you trust the opinions of those who -- even now -- hold your brothers and sisters in bondage over those with whom you have worked to free your people?
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:40:00 - [40] Kovsky, yeah, it annoys me the Amarr is trying to pretend he agrees with us and is somehow thinking our best, while he is quite obviously doing that in an effort to escalate the situation and plunge us into further internal conflicts. Which is why I am ignoring him, and I think you should do the same. This matter is between the Matari and not a concern of the Amarr. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:45:00 - [41] Edited by: Ikar Kaltin on 03/02/2007 11:43:45 I find it interesting how I am suddenlu on your side, even "pretending" to be on your side. If you check my communications even to the start of all recent hostilities I have pointed out that the defiants were terrorists and theives who were outlawed by your own government, and if memory recalls EM and NMTZ denied all knowledge of working with him, and instead claimed to be working with your government. Im just noting upon the hypocracy of the supposedly "loyal" Matari who are now flying their true colours. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 12:06:00 - [42] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 03/02/2007 12:05:37 Originally by: Hakera It has always fallen to us to make the difficult choices, the ones others are not brave enough to make, but make them we have for the good of the galaxy. Our people cannot rot in the quagmyre of the republic no longer. It has fallen on many of us to make difficult choices. How arrogant of you to think you are the ones making 'brave' choices to aid the future of our people. Considering the Ushra'Khan doesn't even live amongst these people I find this stance ridiculous. Your current proposed actions in causing a civil war over a former hero of our people who turned to treachery against his own kind is for the good of the galaxy? I suggest you rethink that stance or the rot will go deeper than you can ever imagine for our brethren. Take a step back and think on what consequence your actions may cause. The Amarr Empire has been waiting for a moment like this for some time. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 12:08:00 - [43] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 03/02/2007 12:04:53 Kovsky, it bothers me more than you pay heed to the words of these twisted maggots. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 12:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Aodha Khan It has fallen on many of us to make difficult choices. Silence snake, keep your wormtongue behind your teeth. The most difficult choice you have to make is which belt to mine today whilst you put down any rebellion of our people and let them cry in despair as the shackles are not only made by Amarr but my the Republic agents who assassinate anyone who dares speak out. I see which side your standing on.
Mordenkainan Caldari Lone Gunmen	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:09:00 - [45] Mordenkainan pauses after reading all the diatribe On my own personal note, i'm inclined to agree with the U'K here - for to long have the Republic turned a blind eye to the Amarr breaking the peace and blatantly breaking the law. Midular is gutless and weak, her actions the lowest of the low. 1 isk... hmm....
Forty Three Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:35:00 - [46] I would like to say something to all the republicans who are accusing Muritor of treachery..... treachery is leaving your people to work with the enemy, treachery would have been for Muritor to steal ships then use them against the matari... what he did was not treachery... what he did was one of the most heroic, selfless acts I've seen... He sacrificed himself to show all matari what Midular's government is about... He died without shooting back because he was being killed by a dear old friend... He died to show us what the matari people need, and you are accusing him of treachery?? TREACHERY?? I'll tell you what treachery is... treachery is what the Republic Fleet has done to him... treachery was inviting him to a 1 on 1 talk with his friend, only to have him murdered in cold blood... it is not Muritor who has turned against his own people, but Midular... this is who the real traitor is... I fully support Admiral Maggot's reaction in this... Down with Midular!!! UNITY!!!
Cipher7 Nightgliders Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:46:00 - [47] EM & Namtzar'Kin, I am disappointed. You should be the first ones calling for Karin Midular to be taken out back and shot. Will you stand with her against the Matari people? The Republic does not have an absolute right to exist at the expense of its people. It has a MANDATE to look after them. If the Republic is just going to become a surrogate of the Empire, then what exactly are you supporting? Either look after the People. Or the People will look after themselves, by any means necessary.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Hakera The most difficult choice you have to make is which belt to mine today whilst you put down any rebellion of our people and let them cry in despair as the shackles are not only made by Amarr but my the Republic agents who assassinate anyone who dares speak out. Your ignorance is astounding as well as your arrogance to think you make choices for our people. Where is the 'freedom' and 'unity' in this way of thinking? Originally by: Hakera I see which side your standing on. I am on the side of diplomacy before war when it comes to those who live under the banner of the Republic. Sure, make a call for Midular to be removed from power due to this incident, but you didn't bother. Civil war means nothing but death to our kin. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:21:00 - [49] Forty Three, I'm afraid you are wrong. Treason is a political term, and it relates to established organizations and states. Treason, with a capitol T, relates to the state each of one belongs to. Thus, stealing from that state and turning your back to it, attacking when you were told not to and so on... that is Treason. Check your political books, if you have some, before speaking of concepts you do not understand. And, as you, many others who have talked here. --------------------- Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Aodha Khan I am on the side of diplomacy before war /me laughs I know all about the 'peace' you talk about. The peace you talk about while you lay comfy in your bed at night. Whilst you let slaver gangs raid daily as our borders are kept open , whilst the government you so support deals in the blood of our children for profit and industry and gets their assassins to silence anyone who dares stand against them and in the frontline defending them, is you, their little puppet. Working hard to dishonour those who rise up and call for action when they cannot block the screams of our familes out no longer for the sake of your peace! Bathe well in the blood of our children, your peace be dammed! The government you support, its time is ending. The blows will not be made by us. It will be the people when they learn of what has transpired, when the government sponsored news agencies are silenced. When their propaganda merchants, assassins and puppets are repaid in whole. The people will rise and tear down the government. It is not us you should be afraid of. Your little peace will end by the hand of the people.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Ka Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 15:21:00 - [51] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 03/02/2007 15:19:40 Originally by: Hakera The government you support, its time is ending. The blows will not be made by us. Firstly, I am no Republican. Nor, do I support a Midular lead Republic. I suggest re-reading of my posts before blindly labelling anyone who speaks up against a civil war and murder inside Matari borders as a Republic supporter. It may suit your argument but it's simply not the truth. Glad to know you will not be making any blows and leaving it up to the people of Matar just as I had hoped. I can now safely put your rhetoric aside and hope this issue can be resolved without more bloodshed and murder. I prefer to save that privelege for those more deserving who serve the Amarr Empire. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Forty Three Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 15:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Sepherim Forty Three, I'm afraid you are wrong. Treason is a political term, and it relates to established organizations and states. Treason, with a capitol T, relates to the state each of one belongs to. Thus, stealing from that state and turning your back to it, attacking when you were told not to and so on... that is Treason. Check your political books, if you have some, before speaking of concepts you do not understand. And, as you, many others who have talked here. Indeed, Treason is a political term... Muritor may have been a deserter, but he never attacked anyone in the Republic... thus he is not a traitor... I do not know how you define treason in your filthy empire, but, I advise you, stay out of this, this is an issue between matari... we don't need your pathetic attempts at discord... oh and it's capitAl... go read your spelling books, if you have any UNITY!!!
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.03 15:33:00 - [53] To clarify to the above, before anyone draws too many conclusions, I am speaking here as a private person and so is Aodha Khan. Neither of us has the authority to speak on this in the name of Namtz'aar K'in. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 16:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Aodha Khan Glad to know you will not be making any blows and leaving it up to the people of Matar just as I had hoped. I can now safely put your rhetoric aside and hope this issue can be resolved without more bloodshed and murder. Diplomacy has its time and place. The time for peace is over, if the republic is to stand for anything other than a rotting carcass of a once great people. I will not allow the agents of the empire to condemn our people to whither away into nothing whilst that Republic preaches peace as the best course of action. Muritors sacrifice will not be in vein as his last act of defiance was uncovering the corruption this foreign ideal of democracy has brought. I have lived with being targeted and ostracized by the Republic in their smear campaigns for years. I have watched the government news agencies publish article after article on us. Their campaigns may of turned people against us, but it is our place to sacrifice for them even when we are not welcome or wanted and lead them home. We cannot allow them to sink further into the abyss. Make no mistake when I say this, if the government are not removed from power and leadership restored to the tribes, measures will be taken which their assassins & puppets will not be able to cover up what is coming. Decide quickly where you stand.
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.03 16:34:00 - [55] I will not derail the thread out of respect for its originator, but those who think to lead the Ushra'Khan off its chosen path, by the use of simple argument and diplomacy, have not studied their history. Let the Lords of Chaos rule? ----------------------------------------------
zoolkhan Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 19:06:00 - [56] Edited by: zoolkhan on 03/02/2007 19:05:42 Originally by: Shira d'Radonis You lack the power to overthrow the Republic, and you both lack the power to fight each other and prevent the Amarr from exploiting the internal struggle. Alone, we lack the power. There is a simple solution: dont leave us alone Abaddon the corrupt republic. Unity is not ushra'khan - unity is the matari people against the oppressors. YOU! can be part of it. It is also in YOR hand to ged rid of the cancer within the republic. dont expect U'K to solve all your problems alone. It is YOU and US together, who will be able to make it happen. Our people will never be free as long the enemy is within us. Join the rebellion, you know there is no other way. Midular is corrupt. Her aparratus is corrupt That does not mean the entire republic is it. Originally by: Shira d'Radonis EVERYONE is going to have to admit fault and everyone is going to have to let a few bad guys get away with their crimes. It is the only way. Karin knew what reaction the assasination would provoke if it turns into civil war, then it is entirely her fault alone. now let us see, if the entire republic goverment is ready to take responsibility for her corruption, and the war that may come. if the people stay united, then the goverment will listen - if ushra'khan stands alone, then a war is far more likely.. join unity - unite. U'K recruit! contact me ingame for free eve webshosting
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.02.03 19:13:00 - [57] Wait so UK would pay me to kill this Republic flunky? Finally seeing the Republic for the failure it is eh? about time you took the blinders off. where was her last known location? Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel
Ottom Ephesianos Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 23:24:00 - [58] I am in full support of this. The ramifications of the Minmatar Republics refusal to come to terms with their inevitable war with the Amarr Empire seems to prove that the leadership within those brothers ranks is as rot as the Amarrians and must be resolved. --------------------------------- "Trust me I've done this before." Elite R. Ephesianos ---------------------------------
Chishan Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 23:50:00 - [59] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Wait so UK would pay me to kill this Republic flunky? Finally seeing the Republic for the failure it is eh? about time you took the blinders off. where was her last known location? Many of us denounced the Republic long ago. As there are those of us who haven't. I imagine even now we will have our members who speak up for the Republic. Although I can't imagine anyone in U'K ever defending Midular. Especially now. The Ushra'Khan are free, and as such we are allowed to have our own opinions as far as I've seen. That said, to say that Ushra'Khan have been wearing blinders is a mistake. We are the ones who have been trying to remove the blinders from others.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 00:37:00 - [60] Chishan is quite right. I once served the Republic. In my opinion the Republic is a good system. I would like to see some changes. Firstly I would like to see all the tribes represented, not just four. Greater effort should be made to reconcile with the Thukker and rumours of Starkmanir survivors should be followed up. The Republic needs to compromise more with our own people as we are very diverse and do not all dance to one drum. Secondly I do not think any tribe should have prominance over another. The Sebiestor tribe is not the Matari people and should not be the sole voice. Proportional representation has it's place but in matters of the nation all tribes should be equal. Thirdly, once the Republic is open to the voices of all Matari instead of a few we must turn our eye to unfinished business. Millions of our people are still held in thrall by the Empire. We must rescue them as a matter of the highest priority. Those we rescue can be settled on planets we capture from the Amarr. Only once our people are free again should we look inward and rebuild the paradise we once had. If Midular would rather have a man like Muritor slain in cold blood then see our people free then I say she is not fit to enter the halls of our ancestors. She shames their memory. We are not the ones who should be exile, it is Midular and her self serving cronies. It is time for new leadership. It is time for a new Republic. A Rebuplic for the people and of the people. All of them. >> RECRUITING <<
Shira d'Radonis Amarr Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.04 01:49:00 - [61] While I've already said that I think the Republic shouldn't have conducted this unpleasant business in the manner in which it did, dealing with Muritor was absolutely essential. People don't seem to realize the embarressing and compromising situation that such freedom fighter groups put the Republic in not only with its enemies but with its friends as well. When partisans carry out unsanctioned actions and steal state property, they make the Republic look impotent, or even worse, complicit. The government then has to respond to this international skepticism by dealing with these elements. It has to prove to the Gallente that the it can handle issues in its own backyard, and it has to prove to the Amarrians that the government is not giving these groups support behind the scenes. If they fail to do that, then it provides the Empire with a pre-packaged justification for war and an excuse for the Gallente to gracefully wash their hands of the situation... The Republic walks a tight rope right now trying to avert a disastrous war that I think even the most ardent partisan knows the Republic is not at all likely to win. Not only must the government make a proper showing of trying to maintain the peace and demonstrating its capability to manage itself, but it has to do so very loudly. Quietly dealing with Muritor either by killing him or negotiating with him would not do. It had to be something big. Preferrably, he should've been arrested. I've heard a few of Ushra'Khan's members say that they would've accepted his arrest and trial but that using a friend to assasinate him was inexcusable. On that point I agree. The friend should've been used to convince him to surrender himself to the authorities and if that failed to work, then he was resisting arrest and if he was killed in the process then... oh well. But the government has made the mistake of letting others take the spin initiative... but whether guilty of cold-blooded assasination or political ineptitude, the government has clearly managed to botch this whole affair. So in my typically long-winded way, what I mean to say by all of this is that neither side is blameless. Everyone has some valid points as well as some foundless bluster, and so I think before this gets any more out of hand, the two sides need to talk rationally with each other. No more public condemnations. No more bounties. Just rational discussion away from the eyes of those who mean to exploit an internal conflict... ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Ottom Ephesianos Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 03:54:00 - [62] The bounty is a necessary counter to Captain Muritors assassination. There was no trial and under CONCORD the second he left Republic space and still had allied with groups such as the Ushra-Khan political asylum is a viable option in response to military tribunal. There for at a trial must be conducted with representatives from all affiliated parties. None of which actually happened: Making the soul party members of the crime of Captain Muritors murder subject to serious inquiry and public trial. --------------------------------- "Trust me I've done this before." Elite R. Ephesianos ---------------------------------
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.04 04:45:00 - [63] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Pezzle So you went from Rebel 'freedom fighters', to pirates to traitors. Nonsense. The Ushra'Khan are to be commended for being clear-eyed enough to see that the state that was once created as a shelter and advocate for their people has become simply another machine that will do literally anything to perpetuate its existence. There has been a betrayal here but it is not on the part of the Ushra'Khan or anyone else who fights for true freedom. I wish the hunters of those who live only to oppress all good fortune. The Cosmopolite May I have some lemon with that twist? ----
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 06:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis When partisans carry out unsanctioned actions and steal state property, they make the Republic look impotent, or even worse, complicit. There is nothing wrong with being complicit in a cause as noble as the freedom of our people. By stamping on any of our people with the glands to fight the enemy the Republic does however render itself impotent. Face it, those ships may as well have been discarded as military surplus. Midular and her cronies were never going to use them except maybe to host the signing over to the Amarr of all Republic territories. >> RECRUITING <<
Hakera Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 16:02:00 - [65] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss where was her last known location? the tallest tower in the land plated with gold and encrusted gems built of the backs of our dying children and painted in their blood bought with hollow peace.
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2007.02.04 20:40:00 - [66] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss where was her last known location? the tallest tower in the land plated with gold and encrusted gems built of the backs of our dying children and painted in their blood bought with hollow peace. can i get an address, because that sounds like a lot of places. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think. GLBTA Channel
Kell Atorr Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 20:46:00 - [67] Anyone who has actually worked for the Republic knows how many dangers the Republic is actively confronting. There's not a warship in the Republic Fleet whose armor is unscarred from defending our people from the constant harassment we face.
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.04 23:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Kell Atorr Anyone who has actually worked for the Republic knows how many dangers the Republic is actively confronting. There's not a warship in the Republic Fleet whose armor is unscarred from defending our people from the constant harassment we face. And yet they are held back from fully fighting back by a spineless leader who lacks the courage to fight to free her people. The fleet may well be valiant, indeed i do not doubt that they are, the Republic's head of state however... that is another matter.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.04 23:43:00 - [69] I have it - and you have it - from a Fleet Admiral, that should there be a war between us and the Amarr now, it would not end well. You excuse me if I take the Fleet's estimate of the strategic situation as more reliable than yours? ;) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.05 00:46:00 - [70] I don't know why I'm sticking my nose in this, but here we go...maybe it's because I'm making 26 jumps right now... Some one said that attacking the government now was a hard choice, but if you look at the other choice, which one is really harder? Attacking the government, or making the people see what's wrong with it? Half of you want blood, and I would as well I think, but an eye for an eye is the easy choice that you have. It's also the most disastrous for your people. The Amarr want you to fight for the profit of the Amarr and their people are doing a grand job of setting you against each other. As to it being the easy choice? The easiest reaction is to draw your guns. It's easier to demand blood shed than to try and work things out. To rally the Minmatar people together against this government that honestly seems to not have its entire people in their minds. From what I see of your conflict, you're falling right into what the Amarr want. A civil war benefits none of you except the Amarr who can exploit it to attack the Republic. Whether or not they succeed set aside, they will have more success if you are fighting each other than if you are together. Looking at it logically, it would be the perfect time to attack. Finally, it is the Amarrian's business how this conflict turns out. After all, they really want their slaves back. Vreena ----- One Caracal down. sigh I'm broke again.
Kell Atorr Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 02:21:00 - [71] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss where was her last known location? the tallest tower in the land plated with gold and encrusted gems built of the backs of our dying children and painted in their blood bought with hollow peace. Such a ludicrous metaphor. We Matari are well-known -- when not ridiculed -- for our severe asceticism. We don't waste our limited resources on fancy trappings. Even the offices of Parliament and of the Tribe bureaus are plainer than the meanest of warehouses in the Gallente Federation. Where does our wealth go? Towards defense, and towards educating and integrating freedmen, mostly -- as you all know perfectly well. It is a commonplace of strategic thinking, that one must be able to meet the enemy's direct assault, but one wins the battle with the flanking maneuver. It is, of course, a metaphor. The direct assault is obvious, but the flanking maneuver cannot be expected by the enemy. One does not publicize the flanking maneuver on GalNet -- not directly, anyway. How can you not understand this? How can you not perceive the real purpose of the Republic?
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 04:50:00 - [72] I say again, we must attempt a political solution rather than one of violence. Attacking her or the Republic Fleet will throw the Republic into a civil war. The survivors will then have to contend with the Second Reclaiming as the Amarr attack again. Instead, we must use this opportunity to call for political change. Demand Midular's resignation. Demand a full investigation. But do not start a civil war that will destroy the Republic, and take the freedom of the Matari people with it. __________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ.
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 05:00:00 - [73] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I have it - and you have it - from a Fleet Admiral, that should there be a war between us and the Amarr now, it would not end well. You excuse me if I take the Fleet's estimate of the strategic situation as more reliable than yours? ;) Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I have it - and you have it - from a Fleet Admiral, that should there be a war between us and the Amarr now, it would not end well. You excuse me if I take the Fleet's estimate of the strategic situation as more reliable than yours? ;) Yes by all means try and diminish my strategic analysis of the situation, it's not as though I don't lead Fleets of ships into battle every week, its not like I don't lead skirimish forces daily. Your personal besmirchment aside, if I was the admiral and had Midular as a leader then no, should there be a war between us and the Amarr with Midular as a leader I do not believe for one second that our forces could succeed. She is not the kind of leader that is willing to see a conflict through, hell she refuses to even start one for fear that we might take some losses and suffer in search of our true cause. Under a true leader, a leader with a military background and the ability to utilise our Fleet to its maximum potential.... I wander if our Fleet Admirals answer would be different. After all, a small group of 'traitors' and a bunch of 'rebels' manage to achieve a victory that the Republics leader did not believe possible in the destruction of an Amarr Battlestation. Who knows what else could be achieved with a real Leader for the Minmatar people!
Sapphrine Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 05:02:00 - [74] Originally by: Nachshon I say again, we must attempt a political solution rather than one of violence. Attacking her or the Republic Fleet will throw the Republic into a civil war. The survivors will then have to contend with the Second Reclaiming as the Amarr attack again. Instead, we must use this opportunity to call for political change. Demand Midular's resignation. Demand a full investigation. But do not start a civil war that will destroy the Republic, and take the freedom of the Matari people with it. Why do you seem to believe that the death of Midular would mean a Civil war. Personally I'd see it as a reason to have a big party.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 05:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Nachshon I say again, we must attempt a political solution rather than one of violence. Attacking her or the Republic Fleet will throw the Republic into a civil war. The survivors will then have to contend with the Second Reclaiming as the Amarr attack again. Instead, we must use this opportunity to call for political change. Demand Midular's resignation. Demand a full investigation. But do not start a civil war that will destroy the Republic, and take the freedom of the Matari people with it. We are calling for regime change. We are calling for elections. It is the Republicans sending out death squads and talking about civil war. Of course like the majority of Matari in the galaxy our voices are ignored by the Republic. Slaves don't get a vote, nor do exiles and outlaws. I am sure it is no coincidence that anyone who stands against Midular ends up falling into one of those categories eventually. Midular chose to start sending out hit squads against freedom fighters, if her life is in danger because of that choice then welcome to consequence. Does the Republic support this action? does the Republic condone death squads coming for prominant freedom fighters? An election will answer that once and for all. As long as Midular is allowed to remain in power then the answer to those questions is a simple yes. You want a political solution? We demand Midular step down. We demand elections. There, now make it happen. My influance in Republic politics has waned somewhat since I became listed as a traitor and exile for fighting to free our people. >> RECRUITING <<
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 07:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I have it - and you have it - from a Fleet Admiral, that should there be a war between us and the Amarr now, it would not end well. You excuse me if I take the Fleet's estimate of the strategic situation as more reliable than yours? ;) Yes by all means try and diminish my strategic analysis of the situation, it's not as though I don't lead Fleets of ships into battle every week, its not like I don't lead skirimish forces daily. Your personal besmirchment aside, if I was the admiral and had Midular as a leader then no, should there be a war between us and the Amarr with Midular as a leader I do not believe for one second that our forces could succeed. She is not the kind of leader that is willing to see a conflict through, hell she refuses to even start one for fear that we might take some losses and suffer in search of our true cause. Under a true leader, a leader with a military background and the ability to utilise our Fleet to its maximum potential.... I wander if our Fleet Admirals answer would be different. After all, a small group of 'traitors' and a bunch of 'rebels' manage to achieve a victory that the Republics leader did not believe possible in the destruction of an Amarr Battlestation. Who knows what else could be achieved with a real Leader for the Minmatar people! Making sure: your strategic analysis is that under competent leadership, the Republic probably would win an offensive war against the Amarr Empire? -- NMTZ forum
Occasus Vim Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 07:10:00 - [77] Edited by: Occasus Vim on 05/02/2007 07:09:34 To those dreading the implications of internal conflict, consider your fears and your chief argument: "If we fight, the Amarr will take us all." Listen! Listen to yourselves! There is no doubt in your mind that the jailers, the owners, the torturers of your great grandparents would seize this opportunity to strike us. We tell you that they are already seizing, striking, every hour of every day. Both Rebel and Republican forces in current or recent wars with Loyalist factions know this to be true, the political propagandists be damned. You know it, I know it, they know it. Whether we bicker amongst ourselves or not, our people are being smuggled out of our borders into lives they did not choose. Countless others are being born into that life daily only because the Empire had the power and technology to enslave us when they came upon the Matari in their crusade of expansion and subjugation across the stars. Slavery is not legitimated by the fact that there was not power enough to resist it when it was imposed. You still fear there is not power enough. But you are wrong. You fight for a Republic that exists because people fought and died during a time that had less hope than now. Leadership that will fight for all free Matari, and will not forfeit any of our ancestors children to a fate on a slaver's inventory manifest, no matter how long their line has been in slavery, is the only kind of leadership we can follow, and keep our consciences. We owe it to those who died in the Rebellion to keep fighting, to never cow under even constant threats, to stamp out the power of that threat so that it cannot be turned on us again. You have said it yourselves, the Amarr will exploit our every weakness. So let us stop being weak and fight together, not sit idly by, building our castles in the sky together. No matter how high we build our walls, if left alone in their current mindsets, our oppressors will always endeavour to breach them. No more 'peacekeeping' when there is no real peace to be kept. We can only find that peace when we prove we cannot be taken again.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 09:39:00 - [78] Your words are very strong and tempting, Occasus Vim. But again, you'll excuse me if I trust the Fleet's assessment of the strategic situation better than yours. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Forty Three Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 09:43:00 - [79] Edited by: Forty Three on 05/02/2007 09:40:09 Edited by: Forty Three on 05/02/2007 09:39:25 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I have it - and you have it - from a Fleet Admiral, that should there be a war between us and the Amarr now, it would not end well. You excuse me if I take the Fleet's estimate of the strategic situation as more reliable than yours? ;) Yes by all means try and diminish my strategic analysis of the situation, it's not as though I don't lead Fleets of ships into battle every week, its not like I don't lead skirimish forces daily. Your personal besmirchment aside, if I was the admiral and had Midular as a leader then no, should there be a war between us and the Amarr with Midular as a leader I do not believe for one second that our forces could succeed. She is not the kind of leader that is willing to see a conflict through, hell she refuses to even start one for fear that we might take some losses and suffer in search of our true cause. Under a true leader, a leader with a military background and the ability to utilise our Fleet to its maximum potential.... I wander if our Fleet Admirals answer would be different. After all, a small group of 'traitors' and a bunch of 'rebels' manage to achieve a victory that the Republics leader did not believe possible in the destruction of an Amarr Battlestation. Who knows what else could be achieved with a real Leader for the Minmatar people! Making sure: your strategic analysis is that under competent leadership, the Republic probably would win an offensive war against the Amarr Empire? And this is why Midular's goverment is a faliure... You underestimate our true strength... strength that comes from the union of all the tribes... The Empire is weak, The Emperor is dead... Under competent leadership, so much more could be done to free our brothers... what if the Fleet was used to free our brothers instead of being used to kill them? and, finally, excuse me while I laugh at you for discrediting Sapprine's strategic analysis... he has been in more fights and freed more matari than any of you pigs ever would... you should be ashamed UNITY!!!
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 10:23:00 - [80] Well, and a Sigma to everybody, I've been mulling over this for a while. Desertion and capital theft is probably something that was asking for a hefty penalty, so I won't argue that Captain Muritor had it coming. Some call his late actions against the Amarr Empire treason to the peace, which would be worse. What however I'd like to highlight is that THERE WAS NO PUBLIC TRIAL. This could have been done in absentia. This is a beef I've got with the current Republic leadership. Secret decisions, behind-the-curtains going on, not a single word of public communication with the public at large, and then suddenly you find yourself at the receiving end of a law you haven't even had a chance to read. Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Firstly I would like to see all the tribes represented, not just four. Greater effort should be made to reconcile with the Thukker and rumours of Starkmanir survivors should be followed up. The Republic needs to compromise more with our own people as we are very diverse and do not all dance to one drum. For a start, I'd love to hear an official public declaration on WHY, in the first place, the Republic has put the Thukker tribe in the same bin as the Angels. Everybody is speculating it's because of all the drug trafficking - but is it? I mean, WE can change, too. We do need to know what's wrong first. Even the Nefantar receive more respect than that, and personally I believe we should make an attempt at a reconciliation even with those, and I'm now finding myself officially at war declared by Scagga and his friends. Originally by: Telemicus Thrace It is time for new leadership. It is time for a new Republic. A Republic for the people and of the people. All of them. Oh yes please. But make it one that talks, if you have to drag them into pubs and make them drunk. It's sort of ironic: The Amarrian Empire is failing to elect a new Emperor, and yet they find it easier to reason their causes by cleverly interpreting their scriptures than us with our Midular, who won't talk and has us guessing what her wishes are. Family Tahar, of Clan Hadar, of Caravan of Namtz'Aar K'in
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 10:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Forty Three Edited by: Forty Three on 05/02/2007 09:40:09 Edited by: Forty Three on 05/02/2007 09:39:25 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Making sure: your strategic analysis is that under competent leadership, the Republic probably would win an offensive war against the Amarr Empire? and, finally, excuse me while I laugh at you for discrediting Sapprine's strategic analysis... he has been in more fights and freed more matari than any of you pigs ever would... you should be ashamed UNITY!!! Please point out where I discredited his analysis? To me that reads as a request for clarification. -- NMTZ forum
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 10:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Firstly I would like to see all the tribes represented, not just four. Greater effort should be made to reconcile with the Thukker and rumours of Starkmanir survivors should be followed up. The Republic needs to compromise more with our own people as we are very diverse and do not all dance to one drum. Mind you, it was the Thukker tribe's own decision to stay out of the Republic. I am sure if they wanted to open negotiations about joining now, the government would talk to them. However, it is the whole basis of the Republic that tribes are independent in their internal matters. We cannot force the Thukker to join in. There are those who say we should have sent in the Fleet when they refused to co-operate, but personally I do not believe in that - it would go against all that we believe in. Those of you quick to blame the Republic about changing standings overnight - might I remind you that the same happened the other way round too? Without communications from either the Thukker tribe leaders or the Republic, how can you know who took the initiative there? Though I agree that hearing the whole story would be good for us all. (( OOC: And no, no one here represents the Thukker tribe anymore than I am Karin Midular. Silence from CCP can be interpreted as silence from the government, but if you go that route, then Thukker tribe is equally stubborn and guilty in my books. :P )) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.05 11:53:00 - [83] The Thukker, a free spirited, independant and nomadic tribe. Their tribe elder died during the Reclaiming, terrible blow that. So, instead of being offered equal representation they have the choice. In matters extending outside the scope of their tribe submit to the will of the Sebiestor and Midular. Or scratch out their own path outside Republic restrictions. Is anybody really suprised at the choice they made? So the Republic lists them as pirates and smugglers. Speaking as one who also lives on the fringe of space you have to rub shoulders with all types out here. As far as the Thukkers are concerned there is a big difference between walking the path and harbouring those who walk it. Of course it doesn't serve Republic interests to acknowledge that distinction. Although my cousins, my father was Thukker, can name quite a number of Republic officials that routinely purchase all manner of pills from them. Fancy that, corrupt officials in the Republic still wanting what the Thukkers can get. I don't blame the suppliers for that, I blame the buyers. Without them there would be no market and there would be no smuggling. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.05 12:47:00 - [84] Well, the drug laws are idiotic if you ask me, but don't you think that's beside the point of the current debate, really? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.05 16:42:00 - [85] Originally by: Ottom Ephesianos The bounty is a necessary counter to Captain Muritors assassination. There was no trial and under CONCORD the second he left Republic space and still had allied with groups such as the Ushra-Khan political asylum is a viable option in response to military tribunal. There for at a trial must be conducted with representatives from all affiliated parties. None of which actually happened: Making the soul party members of the crime of Captain Muritors murder subject to serious inquiry and public trial. There was no trail because Muritor didn't want to give himself up. As far as I know, Republic law is applicable to every Republic Fleet vessel, notwithstanding the fact that they are not in Republic space. Wars would be pretty hard to fight if the second you cross a border you are no longer subject to the military law of your own state. Muritor could have resigned and joined Ushra'Khan legally. He didn't and suffered the consequences.
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 01:37:00 - [86] Were Midular to be assassinated, that alone might not spark a civil war. What would spark a civil war would be violent clashes between Ushra'Khan and the Republic Fleet - which might happen if Midular were to be assassinated. Actually, your valuing of Midular at 1 ISK, rounded up, might actually be helpful. Nobody is going to try and assassinate her for a mere 1 ISK - a single round of ammo can cost more. __________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 02:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Well, the drug laws are idiotic if you ask me, but don't you think that's beside the point of the current debate, really? Not at all. I hear people defending the execution of Muritor as an upholding of the Republics laws. Yet when those laws get between a member of Parliament and his bag of crash they are cast aside. The only people Muritor killed were slavers. The enemy of our people. The drug trade claims countless lives, not only of the addicts in the Republic but of those strong armed by the cartels. No doubt the reaction to this is that there are grey areas of law. I say there should not be. You cannot uphold one law and ignore another then claim to be a just society. But of course, in the Republic if you speak against Midular you must be a traitor. If you see anything distastful then it is beside the point. Oh what brave new world is this. >> RECRUITING <<
Rocius Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 04:01:00 - [88] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace But of course, in the Republic if you speak against Midular you must be a traitor. If you see anything distastful then it is beside the point. Oh what brave new world is this. I do belive you sir may be under the influence of drugs yourself. Frankly haveing to constantly hear crap from a bunch of sepratists that seem to be more self centered for their own hind quarters than the good of that which the scream so loudly against? Tell me sir, how is the view from the sidelines? You were once a great and wise man Telemicus, yet the longer you are away, the more indoctrined you become. Speaking against Midular doesnt make you a traitor. Never has. There are many people in the Republic that would not mind an election to see her replaced. I would never see them silenced. It is my personal opinion that she is not doing her job well enough actualy. BUT, so long as she is in charge, I will follow. I do however belive, that placing a bounty on the head of the Republic, because YOU dont agree with her, to be very traitorous. Odd how its ok from your point of view, but not mine eh? Bigoted is what I see. Oh, and by the way, desertion and Capital ship theft... yeah, that is Treason. The fact that he was given as many chances as he was before a shot was fired should have been proof enough, that Fleet sought a more peacable path. Karishal made his choice. Karishal paid the price. Rocius CEO, Gradient
Sholar Minmatar Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:17:00 - [89] I cannot believe that this is how Muritor would have wanted the freedom fighters to respond to his death. What you are calling for is a conflict that will bring with it the death of scores of Matari and weaken both the Republic and the greater Minmatar freedom fighting community. If we cannot settle our differences but through violence, if we cannot trust in peaceful means to exert the will of the Matari people in our own government, then we will push back the cause of freedom a dozen generations. A great injustice has been done in the assassination of a brave soldier of freedom, but we must not let this tragedy spark the unraveling of the last strands of Matari unity. For if civil war is the only path left, then the slavers have won and I refuse to accept that outcome. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Tar Kovsky Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:30:00 - [90] Originally by: Sholar I cannot believe that this is how Muritor would have wanted the freedom fighters to respond to his death. As to what Muritor wanted, I have the following transcript: Quote: Karishal Muritor > The Empire has weakened, they are splintered and the infighting that they have saught to keep from the public eye is becoming more apparent with the Navys beligerance Karishal Muritor > We can beat them, the people of the Republic have seen you and us in action, I believe they have seen this too rotweiler > Even the toughest of woods succumbs to rot when in the water for too long brother Tar Kovsky > Isn't your strategic goal to motivate the Republic into action? Karishal Muritor > Even so, it does not do to underestimate your enemy Karishal Muritor > Indeed Tar Ugleb > /emote snorts "Forgive my scepticism on that point" Karishal Muritor > /emote nods Karishal Muritor > I know, they have been less than forthcoming on that point in the past Karishal Muritor > However, there are honourable men in the Fleet. Men that look across the border as I do, as we do, and see the full plight of our people Mah Kraah > the recent sanctionated wars between amarr paramilitarys and republic loyalists may help in that case Tar Kovsky > /emote nods Karishal Muritor > Yes, I am sorry to say but that fighting has been nothing but beneficial to our cause Mah Kraah > as it shows that even republicans are not save from the amarr opression within the borders of our homelands Karishal Muritor > Indeed, its a common cause to bind us all Karishal Muritor > And perhaps the loyalists now see that there will be no peace with the Amarr His goals and hopes are quite unambiguous.
Karn Mithralia Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:38:00 - [91] Originally by: Sholar I cannot believe that this is how Muritor would have wanted the freedom fighters to respond to his death. Believe it or not as you wish, but as comms came in live of Muritors death and how it came about I was left with the very clear impression he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly how U'K would respond to it. Nothing else explains him simply surrendering to his fate as he did. The manner of his death did one thing nothing else could do: it showed the Republic for what it really is. There is no other path than a violent one as long as slavers live. Come on, enough of this peace making dribble, our bar fights are more fiesty than most of the rubbish on this summit. We're warriors, we wage war, only question is, who's the enemy? ----------------------------------------- Now recruiting.
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:40:00 - [92] I have a question for the Ushra'Khan. And please, I don't mean to insult so if I do, please don't take offense. You have called for the death of Midular because you believe her actions to be unworthy of her current post in the Republic. You have been asked again and again to remove this bounty and you refuse saying that it is only what she did herself and that it is just. Some among you have called for re-elections and these calls has been heard by those Minmatar who do not agree with this call for death but that she is not fit to govern your people. Please correct me if I have any of those facts wrong. My question is three fold, one that has been asked already by the EM. Why will you not call off this bounty and settle for a re-election without blood shed? If what she did was so wrong, why are you repeating her mistake? And IF Midular is re-elected, what is your plan? Vreena ----- One Caracal down. You're not gettin' another any time soon.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:45:00 - [93] Edited by: Raivi on 06/02/2007 05:43:11 ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:49:00 - [94] Edited by: Raivi on 06/02/2007 05:45:22 ((Double Post)) ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:49:00 - [95] Edited by: Raivi on 06/02/2007 05:47:03 ((Alright, this is just a bit ridiculous, sorry everyone)) ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Sholar Minmatar Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 05:51:00 - [96] I see nothing in the late Captain Muritor's communications transcript that suggests he would advocate attempts on the life of Karin Midular. There are many other ways to motivate the Republic into action than violence. In that transcript I see only a desire to unite the Loyalists and those allied with the Defiants together against their common enemy of the slavers. Strikes against the Republic government will cause the death of many of the honorable men in the Fleet that he spoke of, as well as weakening Ushra'Khan's position and providing Midular an opportunity to rally the planetside populations to her and avoid an election. Originally by: Karn Mithralia We're warriors, we wage war, only question is, who's the enemy? The enemy is the Empire and it's slavers. Any infighting among the Matari only distracts from the efforts to free those in bondage. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Occasus Vim Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 06:13:00 - [97] Originally by: Sholar The enemy is the Empire and it's slavers. Any infighting among the Matari only distracts from the efforts to free those in bondage. We agree! This is our argument. Thank you for understanding it. But, if I may redraw the past to clarify the meaning, once again: The Republic assassinated Muritor. Muritor got into that situation because he wanted to actively free our people from bondage, but the Republic would not allow it, so he went rogue. This is the cause of the infighting, not the bounty on Midular. This began many many months ago. Permit me to quote your wise words again: Quote: Any infighting among the Matari only distracts from the efforts to free those in bondage. Again, you are correct. Marvelously correct. The sore point is that the Republic has not made adequate effort to free those in bondage, and in fact, they have cut down someone whose sole purpose in this world was to do just that. We simply want unified effort to free those in bondage. Midular will not do this, so we move for changes. When Karishal was talking about honorable members in the Fleet, he was talking about people who would actively fight to free our people if they would only receive the order to do so. The will is there, the bureaucracy just does not support it at the moment.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 06:16:00 - [98] If we get elections will we drop the 1 kredit bounty on Midular's head? In honesty I do not see the two as connected. The bounty is there because she had Karishal murdered. Prime Minister or Janitor it doesn't change what she did. Blood calls out for blood. However, if justice for Karishal is the price for elections then personally I would consider it. I am however not the one you need to convince. Out of interest would we be able to vote? Would the Thukker be represented? We are not members of the Republic but perhaps if the Republic were to change perhaps we could be. Originally by: Rocius I do belive you sir may be under the influence of drugs yourself. Frankly haveing to constantly hear crap from a bunch of sepratists that seem to be more self centered for their own hind quarters than the good of that which the scream so loudly against? Tell me sir, how is the view from the sidelines?... More Republican drivel. Sidelines indeed. Try frontlines. Go back to your mining lasers. >> RECRUITING <<
Sholar Minmatar Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.06 06:26:00 - [99] I completely agree that Karin Midular should be condemned for the slaying of Captain Muritor. I know that the fighters of Ushra'Khan have always believed that the unity of all Matari against slavery was the only way to free those in bondage within the Empire. Your calls for an election so that the people can hold Midular to account are echoed by many others, from leaders of alliances to many individual Matari freelances such as myself. Where we begin to differ is over the merits of a bounty on the head of the leader of the Republic as protest. I understand that a bounty of 1 ISK is not intended to attract bounty hunters to assassinate Midular, but any calls for the death of the leader of the Republic will be seen as a call for attacks against your brothers and sisters in the Republic. All it will do is alienate Ushra'Khan from the Republic and the Loyalists, and lead to a dangerous confrontation. We are a people of action, but we are also a people able to resolve our conflicts among ourselves with peace and with respect for the traditions and institutions that bind us together. We must not shatter the fragile unity of the Matari through brinkmanship and the threat of more infighting. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 12:03:00 - [100] The bounty of one kredit will remain on Midulars head for the time being. We can all agree a diplomatic solution is preferable. We can all agree that the Matari should be united in the face of a common enemy. Electus Matari, Namtz'aar k'in. You long been vocal defenders of the Republic. The Republic is an institution, the Republic is it's people. Send out a call for elections. Call for demonstrations and rallies. The Ushra'Khan give our word we will stear clear of them if you wish or as a sign of good faith those of our pilots able to make the journey will attend in unarmed shuttles. Open a diplomatic path and we will walk it. I have high hopes for where it may lead us. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 12:17:00 - [101] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/02/2007 12:19:43 (Deleted.) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Rocius Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 12:21:00 - [102] Edited by: Rocius on 06/02/2007 12:21:59 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The bounty of one kredit will remain on Midulars head for the time being. We can all agree a diplomatic solution is preferable. We can all agree that the Matari should be united in the face of a common enemy. Electus Matari, Namtz'aar k'in. You long been vocal defenders of the Republic. The Republic is an institution, the Republic is it's people. Send out a call for elections. Call for demonstrations and rallies. The Ushra'Khan give our word we will stear clear of them if you wish or as a sign of good faith those of our pilots able to make the journey will attend in unarmed shuttles. Open a diplomatic path and we will walk it. I have high hopes for where it may lead us. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=470628 Perhaps that is the begining Telemicus. Perhaps we should allow the process to work in steps. Know this, should the answer come, and a call for elections is indeed due, I will be right there in the forefront making that call as well. Rocius CEO, Gradient
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 12:30:00 - [103] Originally by: Rocius Edited by: Rocius on 06/02/2007 12:21:59 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The bounty of one kredit will remain on Midulars head for the time being. We can all agree a diplomatic solution is preferable. We can all agree that the Matari should be united in the face of a common enemy. Electus Matari, Namtz'aar k'in. You long been vocal defenders of the Republic. The Republic is an institution, the Republic is it's people. Send out a call for elections. Call for demonstrations and rallies. The Ushra'Khan give our word we will stear clear of them if you wish or as a sign of good faith those of our pilots able to make the journey will attend in unarmed shuttles. Open a diplomatic path and we will walk it. I have high hopes for where it may lead us. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=470628 Perhaps that is the begining Telemicus. Perhaps we should allow the process to work in steps. Know this, should the answer come, and a call for elections is indeed due, I will be right there in the forefront making that call as well. That is not a call for elections. That is request for permission to carry out Midulars orders. Electus Matari then, will you demand elections? will you organise rallies to let the people speak? >> RECRUITING <<
Rocius Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 12:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace That is not a call for elections. That is request for permission to carry out Midulars orders. Electus Matari then, will you demand elections? will you organise rallies to let the people speak? Oh for gods sake you ever blind idiot. Nothing is ever good enough for you is it? No its not a damn call for elections. Its a call for an answer to the current issue. I am not some fringespacer that can feel free to do what ever whim takes me. There are processes that should be taken. I know that your stereotypical bloodlust is not acceptable to this, but frankly, I dont care. Hold out an olive branch, and all you guys want to do is burn it. This isnt Ushra'Khan seeking truth, this is a witch hunt. No matter the answer you hear, if it isnt Midular is wrong and leaves office, your not going to be happy. Go then, seek your witch hunt Thrace. I will seek the truth. No matter that I may, or may not like that truth. Rocius CEO, Gradient
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 13:12:00 - [105] Originally by: Rocius Originally by: Telemicus Thrace That is not a call for elections. That is request for permission to carry out Midulars orders. Electus Matari then, will you demand elections? will you organise rallies to let the people speak? Oh for gods sake you ever blind idiot. Nothing is ever good enough for you is it? No its not a damn call for elections. Its a call for an answer to the current issue. I am not some fringespacer that can feel free to do what ever whim takes me. There are processes that should be taken. I know that your stereotypical bloodlust is not acceptable to this, but frankly, I dont care. Hold out an olive branch, and all you guys want to do is burn it. This isnt Ushra'Khan seeking truth, this is a witch hunt. No matter the answer you hear, if it isnt Midular is wrong and leaves office, your not going to be happy. Go then, seek your witch hunt Thrace. I will seek the truth. No matter that I may, or may not like that truth. I'm seeking elections. That is not a call for elections. Make up whatever you like, insult me as much as you like. We ask for a diplomatic path in the form of a call for elections and this is your response. This response is your notion of an olive branch? You are a joke. Electus Matari or any other Republic citizen who feels capable and willing, we turn to you now. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.06 13:17:00 - [106] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/02/2007 13:13:45 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I'm seeking elections. That is not a call for elections. So basically what you are saying is "call for an election or else", still. Now give me the other line, and make this a negotiation instead of a threat. What exactly will you do, if there is such a call from us - and I mean before any such call is answered? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.06 13:58:00 - [107] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/02/2007 13:16:54 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace I'm seeking elections. That is not a call for elections. So basically what you are saying is "call for an election or else", still. Now give me the other line, and make this a negotiation instead of a threat. What exactly will you do, if there is such a call from us - and I mean before any such call is answered? Not that I am sure if I can, before waiting for a response from the government, but just to inform the public. We all agree that a diplomatic solution is preferable. The Republic leadership should be chosen by the people. What objection to giving the people of the Republic the option to choose a leader other than Midular do you have? Call for elections and for what it's worth we will back that call. We can stay away from it or we are happy to attend rallies in unarmed ships as a sign of trust and good faith. Open a diplomatic path for us in the form of a call for elections and we will walk it is the offer put before you. Considering we are only here because the Republic Fleet has started killing prominent freedom fighters I think that is a more than fair offer under the circumstances. If Midular is re-elected then we will all know where we stand and we will know that it is the will of the people that she acts in their name. >> RECRUITING <<
Meklon Caldari Minmatar United Freedom Front Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.06 14:24:00 - [108] Edited by: Meklon on 06/02/2007 14:20:57 Telemicus, I am sure you have already reviewed what the Electus Matari are trying to achieve, however we cannot move forward until we recieved a response from the Republic governing bodies. In all honesty, it is somewhat dis-couraging that the Republic have yet to release a public statement on this matter as it only makes them appear guilty. I will not personally comment on the current state of affairs until all the facts have been gathered and properly investigated. I understand Ushra'Khans lust for Midular's head, but please, not on behalf of the Republic nor on behalf of Electus Matari, but on behalf of the Matari people who still rely on the Republic as a haven for peace and prosperity, do not escalte these matters with Midular's death, give us the time needed the get an official response and the remainder of the facts that we are still short of. I have shed blood with pilots of Ushra'Khan for the Matari many times, I do not wish to shed blood against them - give us the time we need. -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======- -=======-
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:39:00 - [109] Well, the Republic spoke, and I have officially called for elections. __________________________________________ What I say should not be taken as the position of Gradient or NMTZ.
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:32:00 - [110] These are personal veiws, I am not speaking in my official capacity for this. The one thing I think you are all forgetting is the republic is NOT a democracy. we are not the gallente. Our tribal leaders are the one who support Midular. If elections are called for, is that not to replace your individual tribe's leader? I, for one, accept there are good and valid reasons and that Midular did Not act on this issue without the approval of the tribal leaders. Doubt Midular if you will, but do you doubt Shakor and the like? oh, wait. You guys left the republic, didnt you? your not represented, and have given up all rights to voice your objection, since you somehow thought that would solve something, acting on your own. so, calls to replace Midular are pointless, since in the end its up to the tribal leaders. You can call for the replacement of your tribal leader if you doubt their competence. I dont. What happened to karishal is a tragidy, a great man was indeed lost. I however, accept that after many repeated attempts to bring him back peacefully, that this was the only option left, and respect Admiral Kanth for carrying out his mission personally - quite possibly killing his best freind for the republic cannot be an easy thing. Karishal it seems to me, by all reports, knew what was going to happen and chose to face this. He decided to die by the hands of the man he respected the most rather than continue his path of treason. I do not claim to know if he did this out of regret and wish to end his path he chose in a moment of anger, or determination, an attempt to turn himself into a martyr at the height of his infamy. The bottom line remains, however, that this has, in the end, done little. The seperatist are more angry at the republic, the republicans see what was done as nessisary, the amarrians are more angry with the minmatar race as a whole. The exact situation that we projected would occur - as a BEST case scenario - when karishal stole the fleet vessels. And aside from all of these new tensions, I fail to see a significant lasting amount of good that the defiants have done, when compaired to the harm. To the remaining Defiant commanders; I will not list names publically, but I will be contacting each of you individually - give up this path of hatered. You will accomplish nothing but a death that history will brand as tratiorous. Return that which is Republic property back to the fleet, so it can be used EFFECTIVLY against the amarrians, and not squandered piecemeal in some meaningless skirmish. When the golden fleets come in force to exterminate all that our people are completely, we will miss those ships and lives you squandered for no reason. If you will not return, offer the choice to your remaining crews - Karishal did the same; and gave every man under his command the personal choice - stay with him, or return to the republic. Remember that the majority chose to remain, and the capital ships were run on skeleton crews initially. Karishal's has never been the popular choice, only the fanatic's. Ushra'kan, your threats against the republic leadership is staggering. We have never agreed on the path we must take, but by posting a bounty on Karin Midular's head you have all but declared war on the republic. You continue to weaken us, and at this rate my opinion of you will go from misguided freedom fighters to terrorists more on the side of the amarrians - surely you and the defiants have been hurting us more than them recently. I have always tried to call for us to bridge our diffrences and work together - Karishal has made this all but impossible since he left the republic. I accept that you will never accept what the republic has done, and I even know that Karin Midular may step down due to pressure from this debaucle. In the end, however, no matter how we might disagree on what happened, we need to remain focused on the real threat: the amarrians. continued --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:33:00 - [111] They want to destroy everything that makes us what we are. Karishal understood this, even to his death, that we should never even consider raising arms against the republic. Many of his final words have been quoted, but the one that rings in my ears are his orders to cease fire on republic vessels, and his refusal to fire back. --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
Hori To Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.10 13:30:00 - [112] I for one did not forsake my sebestior ancestry when I joined the U'K, I am a sebestior tribal member, and technically, Ushra'Khan is just a place of employment, so I still have the right to voice my opinion on the affairs of the republic. I never left the republic, I just changed place of employment from the republic fleet (in which I proudly served) to Kinda'Shujaa which is a member of the Ushra'Khan alliance (where I proudly serve today). Midular is an incompetent fool and should be replaced by someone more worthy to lead the tribes.
Patamon	Posted - 2007.02.10 14:10:00 - [113] Originally by: Hori To I for one did not forsake my sebestior ancestry when I joined the U'K, I am a sebestior tribal member, and technically, Ushra'Khan is just a place of employment, so I still have the right to voice my opinion on the affairs of the republic. I never left the republic, I just changed place of employment from the republic fleet (in which I proudly served) to Kinda'Shujaa which is a member of the Ushra'Khan alliance (where I proudly serve today). Midular is an incompetent fool and should be replaced by someone more worthy to lead the tribes. Hori you are within your right to make such an outcry. I would die to defend that right. However to openly call for the assasination of a leader and lets face it, that is what this bounty mess is, is completely wrong. Those that support this bounty I beg you to stop, you are dishonoring the memory of a great warrior and doing actions in his name that tarnish that memory. Withdraw the bounty and call for the elections, that is as it should be and as he would want it.
Hori To Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.10 15:02:00 - [114] elections? we are not the gallente, I don't really care how it is done, but Karin Midular needs to be removed from office, and stand trial for the crimes she has commited. Being head of state is not a carte-blance for ignoring the law.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:41:00 - [115] Originally by: Cz Ire ...oh, wait. You guys left the republic, didnt you? your not represented, and have given up all rights to voice your objection, since you somehow thought that would solve something, acting on your own... Yes we did. No, we are not represented but we would consider it if the offer was made to us. We have every right to voice anything we please, we are free. The Amarr are welcomed in the Republic and their complaints acted on when they feel threatened by heros like Karishal. Are you trying to tell me that the Republic fleet can ambush one of our allies and no right to object. That very idea is why all free Matari must rise and must voice their objections. Matari should be put before Amarr always, in all things. Originally by: Cz Ire ...so, calls to replace Midular are pointless..., since in the end its up to the tribal leaders. You can call for the replacement of your tribal leader if you doubt their competence... Well outlaw or not I am still Sebiestor so I call for the replacement of Karin Midular. Originally by: Cz Ire ...Ushra'kan, your threats against the republic leadership is staggering. We have never agreed on the path we must take, but by posting a bounty on Karin Midular's head you have all but declared war on the republic... A single kredit bounty on the head of an Amarr collaborator is an act of war? Assassinating one of our greatest warriors is not? We have threatened Midular, eye for an eye. Midular is not the Republic. The Republic is the people, perhaps after you have attended some of the rallies in the cities or the vigils for a fallen hero you should ask them if they consider us at war. You do not even speak for your alliance, do not presume to speak for the entire Republic. >> RECRUITING <<
Doc Extropy Gallente Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.11 09:26:00 - [116] Edited by: Doc Extropy on 11/02/2007 09:23:50 It was always my opinion that EVERYONE who does even talk with the Amarr empire is a traitor to humanity. Like CONCORD actively supports and encourages slavery, Midular actively supports and encourages Amarr power.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:02:00 - [117] Where is the withdrawal of this, now that there has been a loyalist call for changing the government? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:14:00 - [118] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Where is the withdrawal of this, now that there has been a loyalist call for changing the government? The two are not linked. It was suggested as a bargining chip and the request was denied. Midular still has Karishals blood on her hands and it is for that reason the bounty is on her head. I might as well ask why me and my men have not yet recieved full pardons. Like I said, I am not the one you need to convince. I'm just pointing out what you already know. I have neither the power or right to remove that bounty. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:20:00 - [119] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The two are not linked. It was suggested as a bargining chip and the request was denied. I seriously do not know what to answer to this. You repeatedly state U'K would retract the hostilities if there was a loyalist call for re-elections, and now that there is one, you say it is completely unrelated and that your request has been denied? No power or right - no, but will you speak for it? Surely you have influence inside your organization. "I rest my case" comes to mind, as a thing to say. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Hori To Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.12 21:29:00 - [120] regardless of any elections, military coups revolts or other political stuff, Karin Midular did what she did, and she will pay the price of her choice.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.13 03:28:00 - [121] Edited by: Neuromandis on 13/02/2007 03:52:31 Brothers in Namtz'aar K'in As a junior member of Ushra'Khan, I do not strongly influence this decision. But I understand it. I will speak for myself, and for how I Understand Ushra'Khan. I do not speak for Ushra'Khan. The bounty was placed as a shout of contempt, not as a call for blood. Even if it was a call for blood at first, when we were still reeling from the blow - don't forget many of us were present at the assassination, execution, call it what you will - I doubt it still is. Ushra'Khan has no hostility towards the Minmatar, or the Minmatar Republic. At least not the autocannon-type hostility. Yes it has the utmost contempt and disrespect to its current leader. But even then, I strongly doubt there are many pilots in Ushra'Khan that, even thus, would open fire to the current, even rotten by our views, head of the Republic. I, for once, would not. More to the point, no-one WILL, as far as I know. We wish to see him replaced. I wish to see him replaced. Ushra'Khan kannot exist without the Minmatar. It could never save the Minmatar people single-handedly if the Republic was dissolved and the whole of the Amarr fleet would decide to go and capture them. We need the republic, we fight FOR the minmatar. We are your allies by nature, so long as all of us remember what we do, and why. All of us shoud remember who our friends are. We fight for the same cause. For the Freedom of the Minmatar and all others who would be enslaved. I see the Namtz'aar K'in as the spine that strengthens the minmatar from within, as their shield. I see Ushra'Khan as their sword, a disembodied sword that carries their will to save their brethren. Swords and Shields rarely agree upon tactics, and they do not need to. Brothers in Ushra'Khan, brothers in Namtz'aar K'in, let us keep perspective. Yes we will disagree. Yes we will act differently. Yes there will be times when one calls "traitor" and the other calls "hero". Let us keep our differences, for they are healthy. Let us CHERISH our differences, because they let us help the Minmatar and Freedom in different ways, and they need both of them. Let us remember who our enemies are. Do not fight over words. Fight slavers, invaders and enemies of freedom. UNITY
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.13 04:17:00 - [122] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Telemicus Thrace The two are not linked. It was suggested as a bargining chip and the request was denied. I seriously do not know what to answer to this. You repeatedly state U'K would retract the hostilities if there was a loyalist call for re-elections, and now that there is one, you say it is completely unrelated and that your request has been denied? No power or right - no, but will you speak for it? Surely you have influence inside your organization. "I rest my case" comes to mind, as a thing to say. What hostilities have I ever spoken of. Certainly others choose to talk of civil war. I asked for a call for elections, nothing more. You hear only what you want to hear and ignore what is said. You have decided to take this symbolic bounty as a declaration of war against the Republic. No such declaration has been made. That is your fabrication. We have never said we are going to wage civil war in any official capacity. If you want to take a few angry words from a few rightfully angry pilots as policy then I can't help you. There is a reason the two matters were transmitted seperately. They are seperate matters. Yes we think it is time the Republic chose new leaders. Yes, a great many Republic citizens both in space and planetside agree with that and have called for elections to be held. None of that changes the fact that Midular called for a hit on one of our greatest freedom fighters. Blood calls out for blood. If a Brother is slain like this it is our right as Matari warriors to call for justice. I am not the one who called for this bounty so I cannot call it off. It is my Brothers right to seek justice for our fallen even if it is only a ceremonial amount on offer. When your people suggested this be a bargining chip I said I would consult with my Brothers. I have and already delivered the answer. The 'bounty' stays for the time being, there was no condition ever stated for it's removal. Perhaps you should assassinate some Amarrian commanders, they are real criminals. Then see their response. I think you'll find ours is more than reasonable in comparison no matter how much you beat the war drum. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.13 09:10:00 - [123] Symbols are not wind and air, Telemicus Thrace; between leaders of great organizations they do matter. We have chosen to ignore the symbol for now, in order to save our people and our nation from a war even more horrible than the one you want us to wage, but that does not make the symbol go away. I know Ushra'Khan, Thrace; I know of your deeds and I know of your ways. Idle talk is usually not what describes you best, and as such taking this as idle talk is not easy. I will keep on trying, however, as long as I can. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.13 12:07:00 - [124] Of course symbols matter. If this had symbolised war it would hardly have been a bounty worth less than the ammunition needed to do the job. Symbols are important, reading them correctly is important. You have far from ignored this single kredit bounty. You have unfailingly called it a declaration of war and a threat to the entire Republic at nearly every turn. >> RECRUITING <<
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.13 12:19:00 - [125] Thrace, as I have repeatedly said, I am more worried about the words "number one enemy" than about the bounty. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now.
Hori To Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.14 23:44:00 - [126] it's the "why" that's important. Karin is a cancer will surely kill the republic, and when it is apparent for all to see, it will be too late. Unless of course a treatment is administered, her death would be an effective way of doing that. She has shown an ability to make sacrifices on the behalf of others for her perceived betterment of the majority. She is now treated the same way.
Cz Ire Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.02.15 00:10:00 - [127] Neuromandis, I Think that may be the most sane post I have ever read comeing from the Ushra'kan. I have always hoped that such was, in a way, our unspoken agreement. Do not forget about the others, however, our brothers in electus matari are the real sheild of the republic, and have been doing so far longer than the K'in. The K'in fight for the defense of the minmatar people, and with the exception of a vocal minority (my own corp, and elsebeth's) many of our members and council would not call themselves republicans. We simply recognize, as you seem to do based on your post, the nessessity of the republic and defending it. I hold a belief that when the final days come, that the republic, thukkers, U'K, NMTZ, -EM- and all the others will fight side by side, as brother matari with a single goal. That faith is shaken on weeks like these, but I hold dear to that hope. If it is proven false, then we are already doomed. What Karin midular did was order the execution of a rogue criminal, who stole republic fleet property on a nearly unheard of scale (there has been what, 3, 4 outright thefts on the multi-billion isk scale in regards to ships and equipment in the last 5 years?) and after nearly a year of attempts to talk him down or bring him in peacefully, the order had to be made. The ushra'kan and especially the remnants of the defiants will likely never forgive this act. That I understand. I also know that this was likely the hardest act that Midular or kanth have ever had to make - but in most republic loyalist minds, it had to be done. Even if karishal had been willing to negotiate - return the fleet properties, for example - this may have been avoidable, but he refused virtually all contact once he formed the defiants. But this "symbolic" bounty you dismiss as being an act of a few hotheads, I was informed, was brought up due to republican protests within the ushra'kan council and ratified. THAT, Thrace, is where we are getting upset - that is not something we can so easily dismiss when its very much official to the best of our knowledge - real value or not, it is very much a declaration you wish to see her dead. Have ushra'kan withdraw the bounty if you want us to stop bringing it up. Finally, I will admit I was not quite in a calm state of mind in my previous posting. I apologize if I spoke too harshly. But, I wish to point something out to you all, who are crying for Karin's replacement. Who? Who, do you feel, is a strong enough leader, willing to make the sacrifices needed, that can replace her? She has made some very unpopular choices, but when I step back and consider the overall progress the matari have made in the last few years... Who is left that could replace her? No member of the defiants have a realistic chance of winning, they are too unknown to the average minmatar. The brutor or vherokior tribal heads? when was the last time you ever heard of them making a public appearance? would you vote for them? Shakor? if he would even be willing too, he is not a tribal head, so I dont know if he would even be eligible. Fogneko? she's one of the ones who signed Karishal's death warrent. so, I ask you, who would you want? --- "They saw the long road, the harder road. The road that would ensure what we had gained in the vicious rebellion would not be squandered... our freedom." - Republic Fleet Admiral Kanth Filmir
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.15 12:13:00 - [128] Edited by: Neuromandis on 15/02/2007 12:11:23 Originally by: Cz Ire What Karin midular did was order the execution of a rogue criminal, who stole republic fleet property on a nearly unheard of scale (there has been what, 3, 4 outright thefts on the multi-billion isk scale in regards to ships and equipment in the last 5 years?) and after nearly a year of attempts to talk him down or bring him in peacefully, the order had to be made. As I have said before, each side has a different angle to this. One way to look at it is your - respected - view. There are other angles. Strange as it may seem, I could argue that the price for these ships has been paid with the freedom of hundreds - thousands?- of slaves, and continue by asking how much is the freedom of a single matari worth. Can you put a price on such things? But I am not going to. I find that we have nothing to gain by continuing that argument. Suffice it to say, I mourn his death whichever way it may be. I will settle on the middle ground. To my eyes he was a hero and a thief - he stole the ships to use them to free the people. Let him be honored forever for fighting for the freedom of the matari as he was killed for the theft of their property. One may have made the other necessary, but if one considers theft of republic property a crime, one does not exactly justify the other for some people. Which led to the conclusion. Such is the way of things. I would have them otherwise, but it is out of my hands. Originally by: Cz Ire But this "symbolic" bounty you dismiss as being an act of a few hotheads, I was informed, was brought up due to republican protests within the ushra'kan council and ratified. Woa- hold your horses there... It is NOT what I meant! Let me rephrase it then: Many of us may have at first screamed for blood. That is one thing - the bounty is another: The bounty was NOT placed for that purpose, but as a show of contempt. If we wanted his head, do you think we have NOT the assets to place, say, 1 billion isk? Or 10 billion? Why didn't we? No need to answer, of course. I just make the point that a SYMBOLIC bounty is not meaningless at all - it is a show of contempt, an extreme expression that you consider a person most useless, honorless, unfit, whatever - but must not be confused with an actual bounty that is a REQUEST AND REWARD FOR ASSASSINATION. It was NOT that. Originally by: Cz Ire THAT, Thrace, is where we are getting upset - that is not something we can so easily dismiss when its very much official to the best of our knowledge - real value or not, it is very much a declaration you wish to see her dead. Have ushra'kan withdraw the bounty if you want us to stop bringing it up. So you see, it may be a DECLARATION that we would like to see him ousted - or dead in any case - but it is NOT a REQUEST to do so or a REWARD to do so. It is simply an expression of our opinion. Much like writing to the news : The Ushra'Khan feels that the Republic would be a better place without its current leader on the reigns. The current leader's worth is estimated to one isk or less. Originally by: Cz Ire But, I wish to point something out to you all, who are crying for Karin's replacement. Who? Who, do you feel, is a strong enough leader, willing to make the sacrifices needed, that can replace her? I do not wish to "vote" for someone here. Let us see the candidates and choose between them. I feel the elders and the people are more than capable to choose a new leader. I think that your post implies that if he suffered an untimely death for whatever reason - even at this time and age, people occasionally die - the Republic would stay headless? I refuse to believe that. Thank you for your thoughts. Let us hope that reason will prevail and we will all together find the best solution.
Jalmari Vaara Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:50:00 - [129] Quote: Matari should be put before Amarr always, in all things. That sort of attitude, carried to it's logical conclusion, is what leads to things like slavery. In and of itself, one's race should not be a determinant of how they are treated.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.16 03:13:00 - [130] Originally by: Cz Ire ...I was informed, was brought up due to republican protests within the ushra'kan council and ratified. THAT, Thrace, is where we are getting upset - that is not something we can so easily dismiss when its very much official to the best of our knowledge - real value or not, it is very much a declaration you wish to see her dead. Have ushra'kan withdraw the bounty if you want us to stop bringing it up.... Informed by whom? The bounty was put up due to the murder of Muritor. The majority of you had no idea he was dead when that decision was made. How it can be due to Republican protests I have no idea. If it was not the bounty it would be some other matter like the colour of my tattoos. You choose to focus everything on this one matter at the expense of the bigger picture. It is not my place to remove this bounty. I think that is the third time I have said this. I cannot "have" it removed. Originally by: Jalmari Vaara Quote: Matari should be put before Amarr always, in all things. That sort of attitude, carried to it's logical conclusion, is what leads to things like slavery. In and of itself, one's race should not be a determinant of how they are treated. That is not a logical conclusion at all. Putting the interests of the Amarr before those of the Matari leads to slavery. That is a logical conclusion supported by history. >> RECRUITING <<
Kal Orim	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:43:00 - [131] I am of the Brutor, and only recently arrived at the status of pilot. These events are beyond me, yet I feel the need to speak on them. To the Ushra'Khan, I say this: Long have I heard tales of Muritor, and ever has he been held as a warrior of worth. As you, I mourn the murder of a brother Minmatar. As you, my blood cries out for vengeance. Yet temper your rashness, for even the token bounty you offer is enough to weaken our resolve and promote infighting. While it is not a practical sum, it is an open statement that you endorse the murder of Muritor. Is not your primary objection Muritor's sanction of the murder of Karishal? The death of Karishal has diminshed us while strengthening Amarr. Let it serve them by dividing us no longer. To those who claim Karishal had to die, I say this: Murdering Karishal is the worst sort of failed policy. With Karishal's death a great leader of an insurgent force that disrupted the Amarr is no more. That is good for the Amarr and frees up more force for them to exert upon us. With Karishal's death it is made clear that the leadership of the Republic is afraid of the Amarr, and this also encourages them to strike at us. With Karishal's death the various factions among us are splintered and pushed towards violence against one another, and this also encourages the Amarr to strike at us. Karishal's murder was not necessary, it was not even expedient. It was the act of a short-sighted coward incapable of true leadership. War has not been postponed by Karishal's death, if anything it has been hastened. To those who are loyal to the Republic, or would fight and die for their Minmatar brothers, I say this: In the days to come the Amarr will see our weakness writ large in this farce of justice. They will test us. Some tests will be military in nature, and these we must answer with all force - our borders must be secure, our fleets must be strong. Many tests will be less obvious, attempts to play upon our loyalties and turn us one against the other. We are a fractious, strong-willed people. So be it - it is a tribute to our warrior spirit. But master your anger, and do not weaken the Republic any further than it has already been weakened.
Michael Bross	Posted - 2007.02.16 22:42:00 - [132] Down with all you naysayers. The bounty stands, and my blood boils. If I see her I frag her. I want my isk.
Occasus Vim Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.17 01:23:00 - [133] I find it interesting that for weeks now people have been exclusively viewing this bounty, which reads dead or alive, as an assassination order. There is a difference between the two, nevermind the fact that it is obviously a symbolic statement. When you read between the lines (or fail to do so) and you always see the worst possible scenario, that says something about you.
Kal Orim	Posted - 2007.02.17 22:11:00 - [134] Why should this seem strange? It is a contract that sets aside a sum of money that would be delivered upon the death of Midular. That there are other ways to collect the money does not change the fact that it would reward an individual for murdering a Minmatar. That a reward set forth for the murder of a Minmatar is found by many to be objectionable should not surprise any Minmatar. To defend the bounty because it is symbolic is folly itself. Now is not the time to endorse symbols where Minmatar fight Minmatar. Now is the time to reject such symbols and the Minmatar who brought them about. That includes Midular and Filmir. Unfortunately, this bounty means it also includes Ushra-Khan.
Nihils Astari Gallente Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:38:00 - [135] Speaking for myself, I can only view Midular as a politician who under the veil of secrecy acquiesces to pressure from the Amarr at every turn, especially for her own personal gain. Until she governs her people more openly and honestly, she remains an Amarr collaborator in my eyes. I believe this is the view held by most of Ushra'Khan, although they can speak for themselves. You reject us because of the bounty? Do what you must. If Midular would only drop her policy of silence and show how her actions have been in the best interest of the people, the bounty might be dropped (although that's really up to Maggot), but I think she's done no such thing in secrecy and her actions, if known to the public, would bring others to contribute to said bounty. We don't want a war with her people. We want her people to see who it really is they follow. Ask yourself this question: If Midular has been secretly selling you out to the Amarr this whole time, is that bounty still unreasonable? Kanth Filmir has stepped down. Some have called for him to fall on his sword. I believed the words he spoke in Pator, and I think to go on living after what he did to Muritor will be a harsher punishment. He betrayed and slew a dear friend and will spend the rest of his days living with that. You call us warmongers. Do you think we want to bring war to the Republic? Do you think we want to fight republic forces? No. This divides and weakens. Our concern here is that while some are so busy running around defending Midular, she is secretly turning a blind eye to slave raids, failing to help with relief for vitoc victims, and actively working against those who seek to stop the atrocity that is the Amarr slavery machine. See this bounty as a wake-up call, giving you a chance to react to treachery within. Midular might have started her career with good intentions. Every public move she's made recently appears to have different motivations. Reject us or not. You are not the reason we do what we do. Our people are the ones still living in captivity and enslaved by the horrors of vitoc. Our people are also the ones about to be abducted and enslaved. We fear Midular is secretly allowing this to happen on a regular basis. Please prove us wrong.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:57:00 - [136] Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/02/2007 04:54:26 Originally by: Kal Orim Why should this seem strange? It is a contract that sets aside a sum of money that would be delivered upon the death of Midular. That there are other ways to collect the money does not change the fact that it would reward an individual for murdering a Minmatar. That a reward set forth for the murder of a Minmatar is found by many to be objectionable should not surprise any Minmatar. To defend the bounty because it is symbolic is folly itself. Now is not the time to endorse symbols where Minmatar fight Minmatar. Now is the time to reject such symbols and the Minmatar who brought them about. That includes Midular and Filmir. Unfortunately, this bounty means it also includes Ushra-Khan. Words work better when they are coupled with facts. There is no "sum of money". There is 1 isk. Noone would be "rewarded" for murdering that snake. If someone killed him, indeed he would receive 1 isk. But that is no reward. That's why there is no motive to do it. 1 isk is different in concept to "reward offered". It is in the nature of money that they work on quantities. To close the argument... Imagine that: Someone puts a bounty on your head. 1 isk. Which would you feel? Threatened by the prospect of hordes of assassins? I know I would not. I would feel insulted at the utmost, as I feel my head would be worth a lot more to someone that wants me dead. That is the intention. Also it is a wake-up call. That it backfires as people focus on that and not the events that are unfolding around it is unfortunate. Maggot lighted a match so you can see in the shroud surrounding the current events, and now everyone is shouting "ARSON!!!". Also, you should understand that if there was no bounty and no crazy-ass Ushra-Khan shouting all over the Gal-Net there would quite probably not even BE a public statement, and you would quite probably be unaware of this event.
Arnulf Ogunkoya Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.02.18 10:36:00 - [137] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/02/2007 04:54:26 If someone killed him Neuromandis, Karen Midular is a woman. I am not seeking to belittle your words. I am just pointing out that your editing software seems to be faulty. Regards, State of the Art Bang-Bang.
Venitas	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:32:00 - [138] While I am aware that this is a... private matter, concerning only those former subjects who have rejected the words of God, my innate curiousity compels me to ask something. It was said: Quote: When you read between the lines (or fail to do so) and you always see the worst possible scenario, that says something about you. And while the source is suspect to this man of faith, the words do have the spark of wisdom to them. So I ask of him and his brothers: Why do you see only the worst in this scenario - why do you cry 'assassin' over what was, from more objective reports, nothing more than an arrest gone wrong? I quote now the statement from the news reports: Quote: "The Admiral was ordered to bring him in, and he persisted in refusing, so things regrettably went the way they did," the source said. An order to bring in a man - a deserter and a thief, no matter how one views his intentions - is a far cry from an execution. Even if one knows that the man will push the situation to one where his death is the only outcome remaining, as Muritor did by refusing to flee, fight or surrendur. Had he surrendured, he would live. Had he fled, he would live. Had he fought... well, only God could say on that one. Unless there is reason to say that this statement from an admittedly anonymous 'official source' is... less than complete, it would appear that most of those criticizing the actions of Midular are likewise placing their faith in only the worst possible scenario... But then, I know very little about how you people think.
Chishan Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.18 23:45:00 - [139] Personally, I suspect the worst of Midular. I believe she is working with the Slaver forces, setting the republic up for betrayal on the level of the Nefantar, if not worse. It's the only reason I can see for failure to continue research on Insorum, and allowing border raids to continue without reprisal, or open accusation. She ties the Fleets hands, taking action only against our own. Muritor spoke of a darkness in the Republic, he spoke of people who seem somehow wrong. People he knew personally. You who call him a thief and traitor, I challenge you that the opposite is true. That Midular, or the forces that control her, is the true thief and traitor. If it wasn't for the Gallente influences in our government, this matter would likely already be solved. People, remember, it wasn't the Republic that won our freedom. It was Matari ways that freed our enslaved ancestors. I know, and respect many Gallente, but your ways are not ours. It is my belief that for Matari to emulate the ways of others diminishes our spirit, and our spirit is the key to freedom for all our people. I beg of the Matari, especially the Sebiestor, to truly examine Midular. Drag her into the light. Use any means necessary, or she may destroy us all.
Kal Orim	Posted - 2007.02.20 20:01:00 - [140] Originally by: Nihils Astari You call us warmongers. Do you think we want to bring war to the Republic? Do you think we want to fight republic forces? No. This divides and weakens. Our concern here is that while some are so busy running around defending Midular, she is secretly turning a blind eye to slave raids, failing to help with relief for vitoc victims, and actively working against those who seek to stop the atrocity that is the Amarr slavery machine. See this bounty as a wake-up call, giving you a chance to react to treachery within. Midular might have started her career with good intentions. Every public move she's made recently appears to have different motivations. Reject us or not. You are not the reason we do what we do. Our people are the ones still living in captivity and enslaved by the horrors of vitoc. Our people are also the ones about to be abducted and enslaved. We fear Midular is secretly allowing this to happen on a regular basis. Please prove us wrong. I do not and have not called you warmongers. I believe you are doing what you feel is right, and I do not fault you for this even if I disagree with you. I share your concerns about Midular, but the wake-up call for me was not this bounty - it was the death of Karishal Muritor. I agree with you that Midular's actions do not seem to have served the Minmatar. Where I disagree is that anything is served by placing a bounty upon her head. In the end it only weakens your position and alienates some of those who would be your allies in this matter. Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/02/2007 19:17:39 Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/02/2007 04:54:26 Words work better when they are coupled with facts. There is no "sum of money". There is 1 isk. Noone would be "rewarded" for murdering that snake. If someone killed her, indeed he would receive 1 isk. But that is no reward. That's why there is no motive to do it. 1 isk is different in concept to "reward offered". It is in the nature of money that they work on quantities. To close the argument... Imagine that: Someone puts a bounty on your head. 1 isk. Which would you feel? Threatened by the prospect of hordes of assassins? I know I would not. I would feel insulted at the utmost, as I feel my head would be worth a lot more to someone that wants me dead. That is the intention. Also it is a wake-up call. That it backfires as people focus on that and not the events that are unfolding around it is unfortunate. Maggot lighted a match so you can see in the shroud surrounding the current events, and now everyone is shouting "ARSON!!!". Also, you should understand that if there was no bounty and no crazy-ass Ushra-Khan shouting all over the Gal-Net there would quite probably not even BE a public statement, and you would quite probably be unaware of this event. Of course, how foolish of me. isk is not money, the payment upon successful execution of a bounty is not a reward. That the sum set aside is small does not change the truth of my statements. As to how I would feel should someone place an insignificant bounty on my head? I would feel insulted, certainly. I would also understand that the individual who posted that bond has just openly and publicly declared his wish that I die. There seems to be little evidence that the public statement was made only because of a 1 isk bounty. I have no objection to the Ushra'Khan shouting until they're blue in the face. You should be shouting. If your words resulted in the public statement, then it was well done. But the bounty has served no purpose but to divide.
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2007.02.21 19:20:00 - [141] Originally by: Spiderweb Edited by: Spiderweb on 02/02/2007 17:27:33 Im on it brother. *To the Republic Fleet officials:* I have worked for you for a long time. My times in Rens and Lustrevik fighting for your cause against the Sansha drones and Amattar scums will be remembered as hectic and heavy with Workload. I thought your cause as noble, its only now I realise you were using me for your twisted advantage. YOU BETRAYED US ALL You betrayed your own people. Please remove your 8.24 standing with me from your treacherous Republic Fleet villains. Its a stain on my history now. I have set all your drones of hypocricy and treachery to -5 and now you will face the concequences of the death of my warrior Brother. Muritor Karishal will be remembered for the Father he was. The father of courage on dedicated warriors. The father of Honour and true belief to the value of freedom. The father of us all, who fight, no matter the opposition, no matter the corruption and the political hurdles, no matter the faces of evil that climb up to the stage everyday. Take heed brothers, Its the rot within that allows slavers hold slaves. It took me sometime to escape the twisted nether of Caldari corporate control and find brothers and sisters with true Human spirit. Our hearts and souls are bleeding, for today we took the most dirty blow. The enemy within showed its true face and smiled before the death of a part of our soul, part of our spirit. Your death, brother Muritor, is our call for vengeance. Typical Caldari response... mercenary attitude with a bit of indignation for window-dressing. How sweet.

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