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Sargonius Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.10 07:58:00 - [121] Originally by: Victor Merren I do not post much in this forum. As the game card said, after posting I feel unclean and feel the urge to take a shower - and I already had my shower for this month. Anyway, to my all important and completely original post. I am really intrigued by how this war will pan out for the side fighting Bob. I fought against Bob in two different corps during the ASCN war and I can tell you two things from the grunt's perspective: 1. Bob pilots fight very well and are by and large a nice bunch of people, even in local. DC cannot help himself but even he is polite in his own way. 2. Nodes crash very often and when you log in, Bob already has a gate camp set up, not just pilots in local. There are no friendlies. You will all be in a queue somewhere while Bob sets up tacklers and snipers waiting for you to spawn one at a time. 3. Unexplained or barely explainable things happen to your assets and POSes that Bob are assaulting. Thus, Bob pilots can fight very well and odd things happen impacting on your overall war effort when you fight Bob that make their pilots seem even more effective. Now we know for sure they had help from the developers. How much of their success could be attributed to that is unknown and it does not take away from the skill of Bob pilots - they are very good and their fleets are very disciplined. However, I do wonder how much ISK and resources they obtained, how much otherwise impossible to obtain intelligence they gained, and how many strategic objectives they achieved through recently uncovered cheating. Thus fighting Bob is like fighting the Matrix. Individuals within Bob are most likely not aware and not concerned with the corruption within, but Bob is rotten to the core and yes, they can despawn you at will, warp you back to the gate camp even if you successfully got away, they can offline your POSes and they can see your fleet movements. So how do you fight this elite band of pilots and the immature band of developers that form Bob? Eve warfare almost requires a third party auditor at this stage. Someone that answers the "Who will oversee the overseer" now that our confidence in CCP's ability for self audit has been shaken. To those that dismiss this problem remember: we pay for Eve, and we already PAID a lot for Eve. Unlike the rational economics dictates, the sunk cost rationale cannot be applied to something with emotional involvement which is what Eve is for us all, thus simply leaving Eve or forgetting about this issue is not possible. Without the third party auditor or some major reassurances from CCP, I unfortunately foresee this war descending into a farce, especially if Bob starts winning. This would be bad for everyone and unfair to those elite Bob band of pilots that are now stuck in the middle of this mess. V. Meh , thats scary. After only one day of activity, its happening. Laging bad with 150 people only in local. Nodes crash twice and log back in middle of titan , MS and more capital ship ... geting DDed. Disconnection in PoS , connection in middle of fleet And LV claiming all over the forum * we rock we won 6 fleet battles! ...* When only showdown pressing the DD button . Oh well I agree that BoB are good pilot . But for LV ... ahahahha Fun! Thats only the begining Lets have fun and hope for better server stability! Good luck to all involved !
Drunken Cajun F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:04:00 - [122] 1 part of me feels sympathy for the BOB grunt that has no clue about all this. Getting lumped in and by association being branded cheats. The other part wonders why they would remain with a group under that stigma. laissez les bon temps rouler
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:04:00 - [123] Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/02/2007 08:01:53 Originally by: Degaal Valen I'd really take issue with any broad-sweeping action on CCP's part that penalized the innocent along with the guilty. To put it bluntly I felt like I was the victim of something similar at the hands of BoB, blindly labeling all goons a cancer, comparing us to terrorists, etc, and I'd rather not see the same thing done to the innocent amongst them. More importantly I'd be upset at anything that ruined my chance to enjoy an in-game battle with my alliance against another alliance I have felt took things to a personal level unnecessarily last summer. I still remember that stuff said about us last summer by BoB leaders and the hypocracy of comments about goonswarm not caring about the EVE community and being a cancer on it while BoB was receving inside information and T2 BPOs is not lost on me in the slightest. Yes looking back the irony is strong is it not... BoB did their holy crusade against Goons on the very pretext that they had overstepped the boundaries of what is acceptable within EVE. Well.... whaddya know huh.... However there is a crucial difference... Goons can be accused of poor taste.. but they cannot be accused of looking the other way in the face of developer collusion. In my books the accusations BoB is faced with are far worse... they attack the very point of playing a fiercely competitive pvp game like EVE where even the smallest advantage can have a ripple effect with unforseen consequences. And IMO some big sweeping punishment from CCP should be forthcoming.. if for no other reason than to protect the meritocracy inherent in the EVE system.. where through collective effort things can be achieved and competitiveness on an alliance scale is not determined by whether you have devs onboard or not. Cause if EVE is not a true meritocracy.. I don't wanna be here. We got enough of that crap in RL.
Daedal Virtu Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:12:00 - [124] I'm surprised to find FLA is not listed with the rest, then again we do fly under the radar a fair bit. Ill also not TRI was only anti BoB while they were in the north... dunno what they are going to do now. But considering they attacked us with 8 carriers today im gonna guess that they aren't so friendly. FLA One http://fla.killerspace.com/forum/ <No tree's were harmed during this transmission. However, a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced>
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:14:00 - [125] Edited by: NereSky on 10/02/2007 08:10:52 Originally by: Vasili Z You guys act like the only reason BoB has space is because devs gave it to them. No Bod got their space i believe , but they definately got tucked in , had a bedtime story read to them while thier space was seeded with nice new toys turning a very nice piece of real estate to a plush one. edited for spelling mistakes
Admentus Cor'vion Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:15:00 - [126] Originally by: Tar Kovsky It's a bit earlier than expected, but clearly, there can be only one name for this war. T+TALHELLDE-TH Winnar! Blah, I'll fix the durn sig when I feel like it.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:25:00 - [127] Originally by: BobFromMarketing Originally by: Troubadour lol, a few crappy T2 blueprints are handed out to a bob member and all of a sudden every single time you lost against them you can blame it on haxploits? Face it, you are losing because they are better then you. There is nothing worse then a bunch of sore losers. Besides, i'm sure if devs were doing stuff like making nodes and players crash in bob's favor, someone at CCP would of noticed by now. Only every single person they kill it seems nowadays comes on the forums to whine about it and call haxploit. Without any proof, STFU. kthx. Ok, let me run a real world example of why people are paranoid now. You're dating a chick, and she goes out all the time but you never give it a second thought because thats your woman and she loves you(or whatever). One day you find out she cheated on you(or the last guy) but decide to stay with her, now all those times when she goes out you dont really trust her anymore, you become paranoid because of an unrelated(yet related) fact. She could just be going out with the girls having a good time and going home no harm no foil. Or she could be getting boinked by some guy thats better looking than you every night of the week. Regardless the chain of trust is broken and at this point its almost impossible for CCP or the imaginary girl to repair with simple words. So the paranoia is really quite standard. It's called go find another girlfriend and stop being insecure about yourself. Sorry dude but that's a bad example. Troubadour makes a valid point, you all know that if BoB comes out on top, there will be excuses for why they won. Honestly, if you feel that insecure about a video game you should really re-evaluate your life. This is a game, I'm sure those who were involved will be dealt with. There is no reason for a whole alliance to be branded as 'cheaters'. Don't hate me, learn to love me
solarwinds ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:25:00 - [128] My pick was simply "Everyone vs. Everyone Else" or "HOLY F@#$ING SH!T"!!! To hell with neutrality!
Dracolich North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:33:00 - [129] Originally by: Nez Perces All the stuff Nez has mentioned in this thread I understand where you are going, but I think someone has put a purple pill into your morning coffee. If the allegations hold true(still an if), whatever that will be done is beyond repair. Disbanding BoB? They will just make a new one, and continue where they left off. Secondly, I don't know to what extend the devs have helped BoB with(if at all, other than being normal members). Nonetheless, still 99.99% of what Bob has accomplished, they have done by being ballsy - and having great non-dev leadership. Much like other great(in more than one sense) alliances like RA. I don't really care much for discussing what CCP should do, if the allegations hold true, I believe they are more capable of doing so, than any player. Everyone is of cause entitled to their views and may even vent them without intervention of the moderators - but to think the playerbase can enforce CCP to do certain things, is ignorent and naive at best.
Wormeyes Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:39:00 - [130] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/02/2007 05:28:34 Originally by: Maya Rkell Nez Perces, you're still bitter? Oh please. Unless you ban the players from playing together, BoB would continue. You are supporting the cheaters, Goonfleet, and their pet hacker. Your high horse...isn't. Get over losing to BoB and move on. First off stop trying to muddy the waters by dragging other issues into the main one... lets try and address the BoB issue. Do explain what I am bitter about..... even if I was, I very much doubt you would know towards whom it is my bitterness is reserved or even the reasons why. I like BoB very much.... I think they are a great bunch of guys. But... their organisation is now tainted beyond repair.. and if CCP is not careful so will their's be. If BoB care about the game they will disband. If CCP care about the game they will disband BoB. What will this achieve?.. it will send a clear message. If you are a developer playing within an alliance, and you are found guilty of misconduct, however small, you will have killed that alliance. Yes the BoB players would in all likelyhood join up under a different banner.. having the alliance disbanded though would be a substantial inconvenience.. and would demonstrate that this kind of behaviour by Devs or the alliances they play for will not be tolerated. Nez, as disheartening the recent events have been, I don't think this is the answer. BOB has many enemies and for them to be able to say "We were so damn good CCP had to disband us in order for us to actually lose" would be even worse. Not to mention it would set a precedent that CCP could disband your alliance for anything they see as "misconduct." Granted, the events that have taken place are complete and utter bull** but I don't think that is a road CCP should go down. I think the proper course is taking place as we speak. ** the playerbase off enough to disassemble BOB themselves.

Hennry Fromer Gallente TRSG Research	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:46:00 - [131] Although the list of alliance allied or NAP'ed is impressive and will blot the stars from any system they traverse, I will bet the server wins and sends everyone to desktop.
Linavin Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.10 08:51:00 - [132] I'd call it the 'Tinfoil War' myself... ---
BobFromMarketing Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:00:00 - [133] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Originally by: BobFromMarketing Originally by: Troubadour lol, a few crappy T2 blueprints are handed out to a bob member and all of a sudden every single time you lost against them you can blame it on haxploits? Face it, you are losing because they are better then you. There is nothing worse then a bunch of sore losers. Besides, i'm sure if devs were doing stuff like making nodes and players crash in bob's favor, someone at CCP would of noticed by now. Only every single person they kill it seems nowadays comes on the forums to whine about it and call haxploit. Without any proof, STFU. kthx. Ok, let me run a real world example of why people are paranoid now. You're dating a chick, and she goes out all the time but you never give it a second thought because thats your woman and she loves you(or whatever). One day you find out she cheated on you(or the last guy) but decide to stay with her, now all those times when she goes out you dont really trust her anymore, you become paranoid because of an unrelated(yet related) fact. She could just be going out with the girls having a good time and going home no harm no foil. Or she could be getting boinked by some guy thats better looking than you every night of the week. Regardless the chain of trust is broken and at this point its almost impossible for CCP or the imaginary girl to repair with simple words. So the paranoia is really quite standard. It's called go find another girlfriend and stop being insecure about yourself. Sorry dude but that's a bad example. Troubadour makes a valid point, you all know that if BoB comes out on top, there will be excuses for why they won. Honestly, if you feel that insecure about a video game you should really re-evaluate your life. This is a game, I'm sure those who were involved will be dealt with. There is no reason for a whole alliance to be branded as 'cheaters'. I know the majority of the playerbase doesn't have english as a first language, but for God's if you're going to ignore the whole argument and say what you wanted to say before you opened the thread don't quote my statement to do it. Learn to man up and stand on your own two legs. Also im not saying the paranoia isnt overblow, im saying its justified because we are all human, and that's a prime example of how paranoia is spawned in the human mind. Now go troll elsewhere. PS. If you'll look real closely I even covered the "Just leave her" thing for nitwits like you
Hennry Fromer Gallente TRSG Research	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:13:00 - [134] Originally by: BobFromMarketing PS. If you'll look real closely I even covered the "Just leave her" thing for nitwits like you You forgot the hire a mercenary to take her out option - oddly that works in either sence of "take her out".
BobFromMarketing Amarr The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:15:00 - [135] Originally by: Hennry Fromer Originally by: BobFromMarketing PS. If you'll look real closely I even covered the "Just leave her" thing for nitwits like you You forgot the hire a mercenary to take her out option - oddly that works in either sence of "take her out". Now that's funny.
Khirzan Wolfson The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:17:00 - [136] dont bring the whole t20 thing into BoB's soon to be whoopin with LV against "us" because for some time now, bob has lost its friends...however I dont care about BoB......I care about chowdown's titan popping, and LV losing all their stations...especially the one's that KOS helped put up. I will enjoy living there...yes. The views are wonderous.....harr harr harr harr -Khirzan Wolfson Co-Ceo,The Taining Corp
LynxArd UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:28:00 - [137] thx all im having fun, at work now so cant be there but wow what a night of mass killing, im only a grunt so no titan for me i have to do it the old fashioned way, takeing a tau ceti gate camp in 9-9 while being out numbered as group jumps really gets the blood flowing :) GF all :) this is what we want, hate shouldnt be in the "game" just this "fun" suck it up ignore the crap and enjoy the rush.
Agillious Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:37:00 - [138] Originally by: BobFromMarketing Originally by: Troubadour lol, a few crappy T2 blueprints are handed out to a bob member and all of a sudden every single time you lost against them you can blame it on haxploits? Face it, you are losing because they are better then you. There is nothing worse then a bunch of sore losers. Besides, i'm sure if devs were doing stuff like making nodes and players crash in bob's favor, someone at CCP would of noticed by now. Only every single person they kill it seems nowadays comes on the forums to whine about it and call haxploit. Without any proof, STFU. kthx. Ok, let me run a real world example of why people are paranoid now. You're dating a chick, and she goes out all the time but you never give it a second thought because thats your woman and she loves you(or whatever). One day you find out she cheated on you(or the last guy) but decide to stay with her, now all those times when she goes out you dont really trust her anymore, you become paranoid because of an unrelated(yet related) fact. She could just be going out with the girls having a good time and going home no harm no foil. Or she could be getting boinked by some guy thats better looking than you every night of the week. Regardless the chain of trust is broken and at this point its almost impossible for CCP or the imaginary girl to repair with simple words. So the paranoia is really quite standard. Except you fell in love with a *****, Bob. CCP was never anyone's GF, so the analogy fails. not like it matters, this post'll be deleted since i'm not in a corp anymore. MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:41:00 - [139] Apparently I'm a trolling 'nitwit' because I seem to use logic. Hey, whatever makes you sleep better at night buddy. You can never have a decent conversation with anyone without them being defensive or resulting in verbally attacking ones intelligence. I know how paranoia works, you haven't discovered anything new here. It's the context on how you used it was wrong. I would explain but from what I've seen from you so far is that you don't know how to react when someone tries to comment on your statements. You can reply, it doesn't matter anymore, I'm done. These forums make me sick. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Third Down Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2007.02.10 09:45:00 - [140] Originally by: Nez Perces If you are a developer playing within an alliance, and you are found guilty of misconduct, however small, you will have killed that alliance. What if they were a really small developer?

Don Yokushi Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:20:00 - [141] Stop demanding CCP to disband BoB. Disbanding them yourself would be much more fun, no? Allow the War of Revelations to go on. It'll be fun to watch if not take part in.
Lagkills Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:21:00 - [142] Edited by: Lagkills on 10/02/2007 10:20:37 Stop whining about BoB & CCP .. stay in topic pls ^^
Itzena Amarr OtakuDyne Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:25:00 - [143] Edited by: Itzena on 10/02/2007 10:22:18 Edited by: Itzena on 10/02/2007 10:21:36 Originally by: Degaal Valen I'd really take issue with any broad-sweeping action on CCP's part that penalized the innocent along with the guilty. To put it bluntly I felt like I was the victim of something similar at the hands of BoB, blindly labeling all goons a cancer, comparing us to terrorists, etc, and I'd rather not see the same thing done to the innocent amongst them. More importantly I'd be upset at anything that ruined my chance to enjoy an in-game battle with my alliance against another alliance I have felt took things to a personal level unnecessarily last summer. I still remember that stuff said about us last summer by BoB leaders and the hypocracy of comments about goonswarm not caring about the EVE community and being a cancer on it while BoB was receving inside information and T2 BPOs is not lost on me in the slightest. Get a list from T20 about who in BoB knew for certain he was a dev. Ban those people. Ask all other devs to leave BoB & BoB's pets right now (and not to talk to them) on pain of dismissal. Repeat for any other publically-known devs in any other alliances. If a dev is smart enough to keep quiet and not cheat - great! Have fun in game. Put up a public warning to everyone in the entire game, along the lines of "If someone in your alliance or corp claims to be a dev or GM, report them now or you may face dire repercussions later" Get all other items which could be considered illegitimate gains via corrupt Dev back from whoever has them, in whichever corp (the event mothership and similar toys). Fire T20. That'll do...for a start, anyway. -- I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy... I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power... I want us to be what we used to be.
Mitch Taylor Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:25:00 - [144] Add us to the BOB side. Thanks. Dark-Rising
Sirius Lonestar Gallente GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:39:00 - [145] Originally by: Vily [But the problem is that it DOESN't work. It has been proved a hundred times by people who study the field. punishment for all does not lead to no more evil happenings. If Mayor X commits acts of corruption the city will feel it and may even be punished. This wont hamper mayor Y from doing the same thing. the ASSSUMPTION is that this was done for ALLIANCE gain. When it was more than likely for PERSONAL gain. It ended up being an alliance benefit when they ended up with his BPO's after he had his characters deleted. You have never been in the Military have you? Group punishment can be quite effective as the members of the group effected by the punishment will take care of the offender(s) and make sure it doesn't happen again. The problem with your analogy is that you place it in scenario where enforcement is difficult in a free society. This is a game where CCP has absolute authority to enforce rules and absolute power to hand out punishments. That said, I do not believe that disbanding BoB is the answer. They can, however, permaban the people involved and fine the Alliance/Corp heavily. According to the evidence provided, Leaders in BoB knowingly cheated by accepting in game goods and intelligence that regular players are not privy to. This deserves serious sanctions as they were willing participants. So far, much of the evidence has been back up by the investigation. Common sense also states that there allegations would be something that people, like the Leadership of BoB, who are extremely arrogant and have a win at any cost mentality would do. I only ask CCP to do us a favor and wait until the "Great War" is over so the last thing that Sir Molle and the other cheaters remember in the game is the fact that they lost to our coalition.
Yagyu Munemori Amarr Space lane Patrol	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:48:00 - [146] Originally by: Siliya just want to Make sure I Understand this Setup BoB Attacks RA Goon & friends 6 or so hours ago the Dev Scandle goes down BoB Becomes Targeted by most of the Server just making sure I understand this.... was that the case or was this a Strike of oppurtunity Isnt it Great =) Time to pop some egos. ________________________________________________ Its better to have loved and lost then never to have lost at all
sariss Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.10 11:14:00 - [147] Funny how all the forum warriors/whiners/flamers now all found the perfect explanation for everything that happened and that will happen: If Ragoons loose vs. LV/BoB it is because BoB cheat. If Ragoons win it is because BoB can not cheat any more. And of course, node crashes are never because you have 500 people in system shooting each others. If you follow your own logic you should quit EVE. Can i have your stuff?
D2O HeavyWater Amarr Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.10 11:19:00 - [148] Goddam those eve nodes are gonna be doin some sweatin. GM's get ready for the floods of petitions, 0 fps, ctd's locked up screens etc....
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.10 11:19:00 - [149] Originally by: sariss Funny how all the forum warriors/whiners/flamers now all found the perfect explanation for everything that happened and that will happen: If Ragoons loose vs. LV/BoB it is because BoB cheat. If Ragoons win it is because BoB can not cheat any more. And of course, node crashes are never because you have 500 people in system shooting each others. If you follow your own logic you should quit EVE. Can i have your stuff? AND all of the bannable stuff that has been done by GS, RA, RAT etc is overlooked? All the GS, RA, A, etc pilots please look at the mirror... Hmmm, can't think of any better name than GoonCheat
Sargonius Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.10 11:22:00 - [150] Edited by: Sargonius on 10/02/2007 11:18:57 Originally by: sariss And of course, node crashes are never because you have 500 people in system shooting each others. What about 142 peoples in the same system and 2 nodes crash?



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