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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:00:00 - [1] I would like to get an official statement from the GM's to avoid further forum wars and angry flamewars. It is okay to aggro a ship just seconds before it logs out (pilot announcing it clearly, no logoffski) in such a way that the pilot of the ship most likely won't know about being aggroed? I neither say it is bad nor do I say it is good play. I just want to know if CCP approves this or not. Please answer this, it will avoid lots of discussions in the future!
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:06:00 - [2] From the player guide. Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players Corp theft is fine, scamming is fine. Why on earth would spying and pulling a sneaky trick not be? I'd be surprised if CCP did answer this. I think the proof will be in a few days when the petition for reimbursement gets approved or denied.
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:07:00 - [3] Or don't announce your logoff to people who want to shoot you? =AFK=
Grez Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:08:00 - [4] I think he means when the pilot logs off (or just before he logs off), another player shoots their can/wreckage and gives them a 15 minute aggro timer on purpose. Originally by: Jiekon Please send a bug report and file an exploit petition. As far as i am aware this should not happen. --- Cache Clearer
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Grez I think he means when the pilot logs off (or just before he logs off), another player shoots their can/wreckage and gives them a 15 minute aggro timer on purpose. No, he means exactly what he said he means. Theres a 26 page thread of whines in COAD because what he said was exactly the reason for D2's titan dieing.
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:31:00 - [6] why this thread another one
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:50:00 - [7] Originally by: hotgirl933 why this thread another one Didn't you read what I wrote? Because I would like a statement from CCP so that we know the rules of the game. Is everything allowed what is possible? Clearly not because some things are considered bug. Where to draw the line between bug, cheating and legitimate play? That no player can answer, only CCP can tell us.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 12:08:00 - [8] clearly this is allowed. its game mechanics. ----- Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker At this time I am more disgusted by the player base then with the dev to be honest! QFT!!
Nalia Telandar	Posted - 2007.02.17 12:12:00 - [9] I agree with waiting for the GM petition to occur and locking this thread until then. Asking them to clarify increases the risk that the "rule" for this kind of attack will only be applied to one side of the engagement. The entire purpose of the war is CCP's lack of impartiality in these matters. -Nalia
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:41:00 - [10] POS just for the supercap with password and rejecting all those without it. Supercap pilot can now logoff without fear some spy-alt planted in his alliance and/or corp will start a PvP timer with a smartbomb. Tight internal security with these ships is a must these days.

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:43:00 - [11] If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. ________________________________ ~Jiekon ~CCP QA Known Issues Page The LogServer Easy Steps To Bug Reporting

Brukar Vilor	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:19:00 - [12] Even if it's friendly fire? Am rather new to EVE, but the system seems pretty messed up to me with no visible aggro timer and such as far as I get it.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 14:21:20 Originally by: Jiekon If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. That seems like rather like its using the mechanics of the game in order to put someone at a disadvantage they shouldnt be in. Which is seperate from the intent of the aggress timer. Which is to stop ship/pod saving by logging in combat/dangerous situations. So long of course if the person who aggresses you is not friendly it doesnt make a lot of sense. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ezzr Goode Drugs 'R' Us	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Jiekon If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. Well, I think that is pretty final. Can't see D2 getting their titan back now. Just have to wait and see what happens with LV's baby titan and IAC's Nyx now... Ezzr
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:28:00 - [15] You arent asking the right question, but you are close. It is an "Exploit" to use a game mechanic in an un-intended way to gain a benefit over another person. So the REAL question is about the intended use of the Logoff Timer. Was it intended to make it so your ship could be held in space long after you left the game even if you did no agressive acts ? Was it intended to be used this way ? If not, its an exploit.
Ka'lorn Font'a Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:29:00 - [16] Considering Jiekon just stated it wasn't an exploit to shoot somebody before they log out - whether or not it is the intended use of the aggro timer is irrelevant. It is *not* an exploit
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Jiekon If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. Thanks Jiekon, that clears the things!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Jiekon If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. So, a player that manipulate aggro mechanics with a wreck to gank a player when he logged off isn't allowed. Another player that manipulate the fact that a lot of players turn of their damage messages to suffer less from lag, or the probablilty the player is already starting to disconnect (no message will be shown if he already pressed Esc, for example), to do the same thing, is allowed. Same intent in both cases: manipulate aggro mechanics to gank a player when he legimitaly log off. Why did you forbid wreck-aggro in the first place, if not to prevent just that? And if you want to prevent that, why accept this kind of abuse? I always considered that the spirit of a law was more important than it's wording. guess I was wrong. After the "bump it to prevent it to warp", here's the "Kill him when he's logged off", fuly endorsed by CCP. Eve truely is going down... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:49:00 - [19] 1. The titan pilot was outside of the bubble. AFAIK, inside, you cannot set off a smartbomb. 2. The titan pilot had damage messages off. If either of these were not true, the titan would likely have not been lost. EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. The titan pilot was outside of the bubble. AFAIK, inside, you cannot set off a smartbomb. 2. The titan pilot had damage messages off. If either of these were not true, the titan would likely have not been lost. True, but that matters little to the question of whether or not maniuplating game mechanics in order to achieve an unintended result is an exploit or not. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. The titan pilot was outside of the bubble. AFAIK, inside, you cannot set off a smartbomb. 2. The titan pilot had damage messages off. If either of these were not true, the titan would likely have not been lost. True, but that matters little to the question of whether or not maniuplating game mechanics in order to achieve an unintended result is an exploit or not. CCP states "It Is Not An Exploit", and still you question if the tactic was an exploit.... Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:32:00 - [22] No Titan can withstand the awesome power of Metagaming. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:47:00 - [23] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 15:47:55 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich CCP states "It Is Not An Exploit", and still you question if the tactic was an exploit.... There is a distinct qualitative difference between logging to avoid combat, what the mechanic is in place to specifically prevent, and abusing the system in order to destroy a players ship and pod using a game mechanic for a legitimate purpose, circumventing the typical 2 minute timer that exists for those pilots to do just that. Similarly, without a 0.0 visible aggro timer or log-off warning a properly timed attack is impossible to defend against. To quote the EULA "An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever" And truncated "An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever" So we need no way of preventing it. Check, there no way to stop properly timed log out attack. And after executed, the ship in space is floating scrap. and we need to bypass a normal game mechanic. Check, bypassing the normal non-aggressed 2 minute timer. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:48:00 - [24] Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 15:51:44 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. The titan pilot was outside of the bubble. AFAIK, inside, you cannot set off a smartbomb. 2. The titan pilot had damage messages off. If either of these were not true, the titan would likely have not been lost. True, but that matters little to the question of whether or not maniuplating game mechanics in order to achieve an unintended result is an exploit or not. CCP states "It Is Not An Exploit", and still you question if the tactic was an exploit.... Aye, CCP doesn't say anything about that's an exploit, CCP is only saying that it's allowed to shoot a ship after he's logged off. But that doesn't mean you can use cheap noob tactics ingame to keep the ship there to 15 more mins ONLY because a friendly did shoot you. No enemy, listen what i'm saying here, NOOOOOO ENEMY was at the titan there to agress him when he logged off. The point by an agression timer is to avoid peoples to NOT log off WHILE you are in combat. Was the Titan in Combat?, ask your self that question, and answer it to I don't care where or how the Titan pilot logged off, he had no enemy agression timer on him, so then he should not die whatever that are happening after he have logged off. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:55:00 - [25] If at first you don't succeed, whine, whine again? [EVE TASK BAR?]
Herritar Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Jiekon If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. It is fine, but it is bad for EVE. A visible countdown to log off is a must in a professional game. It is not EVE-off line.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Pepperami If at first you don't succeed, whine, whine again? I'l just have to explain some noobs in this game how the agression timer is supposed to work, and why the Titan got killed by a cheap ingame tactic that should not be allowed to do Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:01:00 - [28] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Pepperami If at first you don't succeed, whine, whine again? I'l just have to explain some noobs in this game how the agression timer is supposed to work, and why the Titan got killed by a cheap ingame tactic that should not be allowed to do 'Cheap ingame tactic', the games full of them for your bog standard loggers, to corp thefts, to scams, to ninja agro. Eve's an unforgiving game, you should know this. [EVE TASK BAR?]
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 15:47:55 To quote the EULA "An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever" And truncated "An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever" So we need no way of preventing it. Check, there no way to stop properly timed log out attack. And after executed, the ship in space is floating scrap. and we need to bypass a normal game mechanic. Check, bypassing the normal non-aggressed 2 minute timer. There was a way to prevent it: Pay attention. Do not log such a valuable piece of equipment off when there is someone within range to start your agro timer. I'm not saying that it was an honorable thing to do, but it wasn't cheating. The pilot could have moved his ship away from the system. The pilot could have moved to a SS away from everyone and checked his logs before logging off. There are several preventative measures that could have been used and weren't. Sucks but fair play. The pilot forgot the real cardinal rule for Eve: keep your trust small.
Zissou 5 November	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Jiekon If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. It's not really fine is it Jiekon? It's an abuse of poorly implemented game mechanics that allow one party to engineer the destruction of a capital asset when a player isn't online. This is EVE-ONLINE after all. But if nobody at CCP can appreciate the damage incidents such as this are doing to your game or your reputation then so be it.

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