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NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:10:00 - [91] Edited by: NightmareX on 18/02/2007 14:10:42 Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I think you people are missing the point I was making. Quote: 12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. And I am pretty sure that the Titan pilot is aware that if he logs with aggression he can be probed. Yeah that's true, but did the titan pilot know that he had an agression timer before he logged off?, nope So i'm still sure the Titan pilot will get his titan back soon Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Christopher Multsanti ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:12:00 - [92] Just to be very clear about the point I am making. The agression timer was desinged so that people would stop logging off in combat and warping away. The agression timer was not designed to trick a player into thinking he was logged off and his ship was safe just so it could be ganked. Thats just the point I am trying to make, don't know if they Dev's would agree with me or not. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it?
Christopher Multsanti ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:13:00 - [93] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Christopher Multsanti I think you people are missing the point I was making. Quote: 12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. And I am pretty sure that the Titan pilot is aware that if he logs with aggression he can be probed. Yeah that's true, but did the titan pilot know that he had an agression timer before he logged off?, nope exactly. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it?
Sinister Death Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:23:00 - [94] Edited by: Sinister Death on 18/02/2007 14:20:51 Originally by: Christopher Multsanti Just to be very clear about the point I am making. The agression timer was desinged so that people would stop logging off in combat and warping away. The agression timer was not designed to trick a player into thinking he was logged off and his ship was safe just so it could be ganked. Thats just the point I am trying to make, don't know if they Dev's would agree with me or not. Edit: Removed marks about assumptions you did say it's your opinion, so continuing... The following case I'm going to make is also ALL MY OWN ASSUMPTION, but based of events how I came to it: The log off timer as I recall was an answer to all the whiny little girls in PVP that said "X logged off before we could kill him, make people who log while being shot (or taking damage...) stay in space so we can finish the job." That's what the agression timer was for. Since the devs feel this is a PVP, this FEATURE is what happened. Why is it 15 minutes? Probably because of capital ships, specifically freighters. You get a get out of jail free card at 60 seconds (log out timer) if you jump into an enemy camp if you don't have the log out timer. Now if you log out as soon as you see hostiles (you never decloak, you never are aggressed but you are killed if you get locked shot / probed and finished off.) So I think the log off timer was made SPECIFICALLY for people who avoid combat and to be ganked because of avoiding combat. Now they are not notified if they log off before decloaking that they got killed, but it is the same game mechanic. . . The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone. They don't represent my corp, alliance or family.
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:32:00 - [95] Edited by: Xeliya on 18/02/2007 14:30:14 Originally by: NightmareX It's not his fault when CCP allow him to turn it off So if I go rob a bank it's not my fault because I have the choice to do it? Also the contract system and trade system wasn't designed for people to scam people but guess what? IT HAPPENS, stop crying already I want to read decent stuff on the forums one of these days. ----------
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:58:00 - [96] Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Is everyone in this thread crying 'exploit 'just choosing to ignore this? I'm working on it!
Denga Vulture The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:09:00 - [97] Well i dont think we have to discuss this exploit thing anymore ... Imho it is ...others say no ... however. The problem is the game itself, or better the game mechanic. For the sake of god, why it is so diffucult to implent an aggression timer for 0.0 space !?!!? So every Pilot can see aggression or not ! I think the GMs will recieve a lot of petetions less with this easy fix ... and we all can save our time about this exploit discussion. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Dominix please
Klaus Stoertebeker Riders of Rohan	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:15:00 - [98] yepp, just add a visuable aggression timer like the one in empire, and if you log out you should get a message like "you have 14min 23sec aggression timer left, do you really want to quit game?" - and all would be fine.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:28:00 - [99] Edited by: prsr on 18/02/2007 15:25:16 Originally by: NightmareX Yeah that's true, but did the titan pilot know that he had an agression timer before he logged off?, nope Neither does any other pilot in this game know. Please provide a coherent reason why a titan pilot should get his ship back and others that also didn't know they had a timer going (but did) shouldn't. Originally by: NightmareX So i'm still sure the Titan pilot will get his titan back soon Not even when pigs fly. -- .sig apathy ftw
Liu Kaskakka PAK	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:33:00 - [100] Originally by: NightmareX But that doesn't mean you can use cheap noob tactics ingame to keep the ship there to 15 more mins ONLY because a friendly did shoot you. No enemy, listen what i'm saying here, NOOOOOO ENEMY was at the titan there to agress him when he logged off. Noob tactics? Didn't they lose a titan? No enemy? If someone shoots my titan it sure sounds like an enemy to me, no matter what his corp ticker says. King Liu is RIGHT!!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:56:00 - [101] Originally by: Larice Originally by: Ling Xiao I needed to go to the toilet while sitting in a complex, and my ship got blown up. I wasn't there when it happened so I should get my ship reimbursed. Your game was running, so you were playing. His game was not running, so he was not playing. That is why he should get a reimbursement and you should not. Even more so because his involves such an expensive and rare ship. His game was running when he was hit by 'friendly' fire. He logged out after that fact, but it doesn't change anything. Had helogged out then been hit by the smartbomb, he'd still have the titan. He was logged in, thus he was playing. EVE is not a single player game that ends when a person logs out. NightmareX, you need to look up that term, you're using it way out of place. If a corpmate tries to target an inty that's tackling you, but targets you by mistake and hits you with a round of railgun joy by mistake, that's friendly fire. If he targets you on purpose and blows your ship up because he's a spy, that is not friendly fire. There was nothing friendly about the smartbomb activation. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:57:00 - [102] Edited by: NightmareX on 18/02/2007 16:00:32 Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: NightmareX But that doesn't mean you can use cheap noob tactics ingame to keep the ship there to 15 more mins ONLY because a friendly did shoot you. No enemy, listen what i'm saying here, NOOOOOO ENEMY was at the titan there to agress him when he logged off. Noob tactics? Didn't they lose a titan? No enemy? If someone shoots my titan it sure sounds like an enemy to me, no matter what his corp ticker says. Yeah, but if we have some noobs in our corp, do i need to be keept online until the agression timer is over everytime a noob in corp press the smartbomb button by accident and damages my ship? The thing i'm trying to say here is that a player do not have to suffer of a broken agression timer only because of some noobs in the same corp pressed the smartbomb button and damaged my ship by accident. You get my point here? And from now on i will write this in my replys with Caps-lock on that are about this D2 Titan: THE AGRESSION TIMER WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR THIS IN ANY WAYS, IT WAS MEANT TO AVOID PLAYERS FROM LOGGING OFF WHILE YOU ARE IN COMBAT. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:05:00 - [103] Originally by: Jiekon If you are talking about shooting his containers or wrecks to cause agression, then no, it is not allowed. This is an exploit and it will be fixed ASAP. If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine. So despite it being a blatant exploitation of the agro timer - and that the Erebus pilot would have combat messages turned off because YOUR hardware and software is unable to provide a satisfying level of service with them turned on, it's still a completely legit kill?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:13:00 - [104] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/02/2007 15:55:08 Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: NightmareX But that doesn't mean you can use cheap noob tactics ingame to keep the ship there to 15 more mins ONLY because a friendly did shoot you. No enemy, listen what i'm saying here, NOOOOOO ENEMY was at the titan there to agress him when he logged off. Noob tactics? Didn't they lose a titan? No enemy? If someone shoots my titan it sure sounds like an enemy to me, no matter what his corp ticker says. Yeah, but if we have some noobs in our corp, do i need to be keept online until the agression timer is over everytime a noob in corp press the smartbomb button by accident and damages my ship? The thing i'm trying to say here is that a player do not have to suffer of a broken agression timer only because of some noobs in the same corp pressed the smartbomb button and damaged my ship by accident. Sounds like your 'noobs' need someone in the corp to give them some PvP 101. You need to get off the term 'friendly'. Being in the same corp does not instantly make someone a friend. Who says the timer is broken anyways? Seems pretty intentional for the aggro timer to not show up in 0.0 space. Just tell me one thing Nightmare, if BoB and D2 were swapped in this kill, would you be screaming so much, or would you be dead silent? Personally I hope everyone loses titans, and often, so we don't end up with a game where half a dozen titans fly around insta-killing capships let alot battleships. You can argue the kill being lame until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is this: The aggro timer is there to prevent a ship that has been in combat, consensual or not, from logging out of the game instantly. The D2 titan was attacked outside of a POS bubble, with a smartbomb, and the pilot was given every indication that any other player gets. Turning it off is their choice, and if CCP reimburse him, they're going to get a few thousand petitions from people who have died the same way. Your example of a noob making someone stay ingame is absurd. Other than a smartbomb, there's nothing about this incident that is the same. All of this was quite intentional, and combat is combat, end of story. I'd say that maybe CCP should consider a large, extremely expensive array that could be attached to an actual station, that would allow a Titan or MS to dock, but then that would undo alot of the risk they want with those ships. Maybe it's just me, but if I flew a titan, I'd have a t2 cloak on it, and I'd cloak at a deep safe, unganged, then log. Regardless, hundreds if not thousands of ships have died this way, with an aggro from a hostile. If the titan is given back, all those other ships are going to get petitioned too, and none of them should be given back. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:17:00 - [105] Edited by: Xeliya on 18/02/2007 16:14:04 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/02/2007 16:00:32 Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: NightmareX But that doesn't mean you can use cheap noob tactics ingame to keep the ship there to 15 more mins ONLY because a friendly did shoot you. No enemy, listen what i'm saying here, NOOOOOO ENEMY was at the titan there to agress him when he logged off. Noob tactics? Didn't they lose a titan? No enemy? If someone shoots my titan it sure sounds like an enemy to me, no matter what his corp ticker says. Yeah, but if we have some noobs in our corp, do i need to be keept online until the agression timer is over everytime a noob in corp press the smartbomb button by accident and damages my ship? The thing i'm trying to say here is that a player do not have to suffer of a broken agression timer only because of some noobs in the same corp pressed the smartbomb button and damaged my ship by accident. You get my point here? And from now on i will write this in my replys with Caps-lock on that are about this D2 Titan: THE AGRESSION TIMER WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR THIS IN ANY WAYS, IT WAS MEANT TO AVOID PLAYERS FROM LOGGING OFF WHILE YOU ARE IN COMBAT. Then goto a safe spot, pos or dock. Not that hard to understand. And the contract system isn't ment for scamming as I already said but it happens. Why arn't you crying about it? ----------
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:23:00 - [106] Originally by: NightmareX And from now on i will write this in my replys with Caps-lock on that are about this D2 Titan: THE AGRESSION TIMER WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR THIS IN ANY WAYS, IT WAS MEANT TO AVOID PLAYERS FROM LOGGING OFF WHILE YOU ARE IN COMBAT. Because when you say so AND you write it in caps, it makes it true? You win the moron of the week award.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: NightmareX And from now on i will write this in my replys with Caps-lock on that are about this D2 Titan: THE AGRESSION TIMER WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR THIS IN ANY WAYS, IT WAS MEANT TO AVOID PLAYERS FROM LOGGING OFF WHILE YOU ARE IN COMBAT. Because when you say so AND you write it in caps, it makes it true? You win the moron of the week award. Hehe you can say what you want BoB fanboi, but wont change my mind about the agression timer whatever you are saying. Originally by: Eilene Fernite You win the moron of the week award. Hurrah Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:29:00 - [108] Originally by: NightmareX Hehe you can say what you want BoB fanboi, but it wont change my mind about the agression timer whatever you are saying. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just calling you a moron.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: NightmareX Hehe you can say what you want BoB fanboi, but it wont change my mind about the agression timer whatever you are saying. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just calling you a moron. Why i'am a moron when i just tell you the truth? Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:45:00 - [110] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The aggro timer is there to prevent a ship that has been in combat, consensual or not, from logging out of the game instantly. The D2 titan was attacked outside of a POS bubble, with a smartbomb, and the pilot was given every indication that any other player gets. Turning it off is their choice, and if CCP reimburse him, they're going to get a few thousand petitions from people who have died the same way. This is false the number of ships that have died while logging off with an aggression timer applied by corp mates is not nearly as high as you believe. The mechanic was exploited by the definition given in the FAQ. That is about all you need to know. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.02.18 17:03:00 - [111] If it was BoB's titan it would be reimbursed by now and the smartbomb player banned. this is as lame as AAA's borderline exploit loggofskis, this used to be a game about reputation and now is a game of cheaters and lame exploiters who would use every trick in order to give an unfair advantage.
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.02.18 23:03:00 - [112] Quote: If it was BoB's titan it would be reimbursed by now and the smartbomb player banned. Approved !!!
Christopher Multsanti ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 23:22:00 - [113] Originally by: petergriffen Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Is everyone in this thread crying 'exploit 'just choosing to ignore this? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö ------- Are you choosing to ignore that? It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:30:00 - [114] I got a question and I apologize if it's a noobular one. Couldn't the titan pilot park it in a pos, eject, and then log? Thereby keeping the ship itself from warping off...? If that gets an affirmative, doesn't that mark this one up to negligence on the part of the pilot? ------------------- Ignorance
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:43:00 - [115] Originally by: Roy Batty68 I got a question and I apologize if it's a noobular one. Couldn't the titan pilot park it in a pos, eject, and then log? Thereby keeping the ship itself from warping off...? If that gets an affirmative, doesn't that mark this one up to negligence on the part of the pilot? That does leave it somewhat vulnerable to theft (lol) or more seriouslly, bump and pop. Every alliance knows they have a spy or two, all you need is to make a habit of leaving the thing parked unattended at a POS so the spy can bump it out of the shields to vulnerability. Far safer, you'd think, to log off in it and have it dissapear safely while you're offline. And if you've not done anything for hours, why would you think it'd be dangerous? -------- Originally by: Constantine Arcanum most problems can be solved with chloroform.
Cuisinart Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:59:00 - [116] Originally by: Christopher Multsanti Just to be very clear about the point I am making. The agression timer was desinged so that people would stop logging off in combat and warping away. The agression timer was not designed to trick a player into thinking he was logged off and his ship was safe just so it could be ganked. Thats just the point I am trying to make, don't know if they Dev's would agree with me or not. Regardless of who does or does not agree with you, you have cut away all the bull**** and left the facts here for all to see. I don't see how any rational person could disagree. (hell I'd think even the mentally challenged could figure this out)
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:01:00 - [117] Quote: Is it his fault that he want to turn of damage messages to get better fps when fighting? It's not his fault when CCP allow him to turn it off Look me in the eye and tell me you haven't been winding these people up for the last 3 pages. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:23:00 - [118] Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 19/02/2007 05:19:48 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 18/02/2007 16:24:37 Originally by: Eilene Fernite Originally by: NightmareX And from now on i will write this in my replys with Caps-lock on that are about this D2 Titan: THE AGRESSION TIMER WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR THIS IN ANY WAYS, IT WAS MEANT TO AVOID PLAYERS FROM LOGGING OFF WHILE YOU ARE IN COMBAT. Because when you say so AND you write it in caps, it makes it true? You win the moron of the week award. Hehe you can say what you want BoB fanboi, but it wont change my mind about the agression timer whatever you are saying. Originally by: Eilene Fernite You win the moron of the week award. Hurrah Well, the one thing that you, your own OPPINION and the rest of you D2 fanbois have totaly failed to realize...whatever it is you THINK or want to believe doesnt matter either. You WANT to believe something..but guess what....NOONE cares. CCP made their statement and its THIER GAME. What you WANT is irrevelant at this point in time. THERE IS NO EXPOLIT. THERE IS NO HAX. D2 WILL NOT GET THEIR TITAN back. Why,.. you keep asking? Because CCP SAID there was no exploit,no hack. Moral of the story....its not your decision to decide whats intended by anything in this game. you did not code it nor anyone else posting how SUCH and SUCH was never intended. You nor them have a F**king clue what was ever intended in this game unless CCP comes out and TELL YOU. So guess what......get over it.
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:08:00 - [119] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Milena Marich The aggression timer was put in so that people could no longer simply logout to save their ship if they get attacked. It was never meant to be used to prevent people from logging out at the end of the day as they normally would this is made worse when we now have ships that cant dock like titans and motherships. Clear exploit of crappy game mechanics. Since there is not response from CCP yet, I can only assume that they are talking to t20 to get all relevant facts together..... or should we talk about credibility? Exactly, some braindamages peoples here still don't understand that, it's so damn funny Or the fact that if ur in space what ever agressed or not u have a 15mins aggression timer, as ppl just insta logg as soon ppl enter their sys, or logg when jumped so u miss the chance off agression?.. Some ppl in this game schould go play wow insteed off eve, Wich have never been a forgiving game. Exept ccp is working harder and harder to make it a forgiving game :/

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