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Open Letter to D2/IRON/Razor/Morsus Mihi/RA/Goons/Tau Ceti/IAC/CA

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Noreen Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:34:00 - [1] I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR FCs 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 2) They have spies on your TS/VENT, have people in dedicated to filtering people who arent supposed to be there. 3) BoB uses game mechanics thanks to their buddy CCP well, they know where the server nodes are, other mechanics which arent exploits but do give them upper hand, learn this from them and adapt ASAP. Use game mechanics to your own advantage, CCP thinks its ok, so screw em! 4) You decide to have an OP, FIX a time for it, 16:00 GMT, then 16:00 GMT it is , not 16:15, not 16:30, DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. 5) AS AN FC UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU MAKE A MOVE WITH CAPITAL SHIPS UNLESS YOU HAVE EYES ON THE NEAREST BOB FLEET, THEIR HEADING AND SHIPTYPES!!!!!!!!!! The second your dreads undock, your on borrowed time. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR CEOS 1) I dont pay 15bucks a month to hear you scream at me, 15 evemails a day to get my butt on the move when I've already spent every isk on the frontline while other corpmate is mining in his hulk is not encouraging, DO NOT SPAM EVEMAIL! 2) Support your players, They are spending isk/time for the cause, MAKE SURE your directors are pulling their weight, often CEOs work like horses and directors go MIA in wartimes, the ones that are missing, KICK! A pvper will always be able to mine, a miner cannnot pvp, get that through your head. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR ALLIANCE LEVEL LEADERSHIP 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. 2) You DONT have any secrets from BoB, they have spies in at director level, BoB knows before you reveal your secret plans to your own alliance, get off your high horse and do something about it, POS rights only to CEOs. (ASCN did this way too late, look where it is now) 3) your alliance is not fighting alone and frankly cant! get it! ok! get on the horn with the other alliances, dont care if you dont get along, its not the time, unless you wanna go back to empire. THIS PART IS WHAT WORKS AGAINST BOB 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. STATUS REPORT! BoB is in trouble, because it knows the second LV folds (4weeks or less) the south comes knocking on BoB's door, it knows the north has to be completely demoralized within 4 weeks, so here is what I suggest to the north, KEEP GANKING BoB to keep them busy, keep your dreads docked and safe because you cant win this alone, wait till the south is 100% in and then let the masacre begin, Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE and frankly BoB fear them. BoB knows its over, its going down in blaze of glory, to them I salute as an alliance they were awesome industrialists (minus the GM thing), pvpers, friends and enemies, To Most people who hate BoB, I say dont hate the player, hate the game, CCP has allowed players to abuse game mechanics, use exploits, never documented their game, BoB just took advantage of a bad situation, but it CCP that allowed it.
Abominog Gallente Pyrrhon's Salvage Unlimited	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:40:00 - [2] interesting
Astral Knight	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:46:00 - [3] Edited by: Astral Knight on 19/02/2007 05:43:02 nvm
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Raivi on 19/02/2007 05:46:32 Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. It seems to me that this is going to be the key to the outcome of the war. If BoB can keep up their mad rush from system to system saving the day then they can hold out almost indefinitely. If their opposition can time attacks and POS assaults to occur at the same time then some of those attacks can succeed. BoB as a group is very very good at this, but they can only be in one place at a time. If they can continue using the Titans and fast fleet movement to keep on top of their opponents then they will win, if they start falling behind they lose. ----------------------------------------- Explosion Matrix: Our Name Makes No Sense
Samirol OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:52:00 - [5] interesting rant Listen to Dev Radio!
Roland 99 Minmatar Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:53:00 - [6] Good and unfortunately true info. thanks for the post _______
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:53:00 - [7] You left us off the list. Signature quote removed - It was too much for my little virgin eyes. Jacques([email protected])
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:54:00 - [8] Well.. I'd venture to say that there is a lot of sound advice in there. Good post. If the coalition manage to keep it together and remain focused on the end objective... BoB is screwed.
R0ot InNova Tech Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Noreen 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot Didn't ASCN do the same thing? Originally by: Noreen 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. Lies, i like kermite Originally by: Noreen 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. I think you mean symbiont as symbian sounds more like a 'toy' i've heard of... tbh m8 all the above stuff you've stated should be known by any half decent alliance (first one to say "your alliance definately isn't half decent then r0ot" will get a right smacking) out there. D2 are a half decent alliance and should know these things then. And m8 please for the love of the jovian gods stop posting all this "we are hostile to Bob" announcements as NOBODY CARES, sorry but you need to be told the truth, every one of these corps and half witted individuals jumping on the anti-bob bandwagon and posting a new thread every damn time, its really getting irritating. finally apologies for posting this Moe but by jovian gods do we have some moronic people in this Universe. nuff said... ___________________________________________________________________
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:57:00 - [10] Quote: 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. snip sig removed, email mods@ccpgames with a link to the sig for more info - Ductoris
Liabrath Gallente Argent Industries	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:58:00 - [11] Evemail ftw! === === === === === If I win an auction, please send me a contract link by EvE mail.
Matrices Reborn Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Matrices Reborn on 19/02/2007 05:58:15 First decent ASCN analysis by leadership I've seen. Sadly that includes all the time I was fighting in ASCN. But yes, the basic truth about BoB's weakness is its inability to deal with two big fleets in two different areas. If you try to blob one area you will lose to (a) lag, (b) BoB's knowledge of how to work with lag, and (c) their superior mastery of fleet warfare. Best thing to do to be honest is to stop wasting time with FIX and Querious - seriously. Use Razor and Iron to hit BoB directly. The tenant corps don't provide a significant amount of BoB's income at all. And they don't really matter combat-wise either. Believe me, I spent 8 weeks topping ASCN killboards solo ganking the tenants and it didn't make a thin dime's worth of difference where it matters. BoB's T2 production POS, however, are key. Scout all those out and destroy them; they can't defend them all at once against 2 or 3 alliances.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:01:00 - [13] Who would of thought good sense needed to be stated so fiercly.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Nooey on 19/02/2007 06:04:12 Originally by: Noreen 1)...ONLY fight on your terms Isn't compatible with... Quote: 4)...DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS If you want to win, your fleet needs to have discipline first, a desire to be entertained second. The entertainment success brings is far better than the fleeting enjoyment you get from a senseless "leeroy". [quote[3)...they know where the server nodes are London? Quote: other mechanics which arent exploits but do give them upper hand Anyone can use the mechanics, they're not available to just one side. What gives them the upper hand is their vast knowledge of them and possible ways to work them into overarching strategies. Once again, knowledge of all mechanics is equally available, you don't need to have GM friends to know how aggression timers work, for example. Quote: 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest This one's a bit off. You're speaking on behalf of all of BoB's allies. A bit dubious of an assertion, honestly. Yes, the "pets" are protecting their own interests, but if that is the case, then you can't also say that they'll turn around and destroy those interests. Also, has it occured to you that people fighting in this war are possibly doing it for the fun of it too, and not just because they want to have a home to go home and mine in at the end of the day? This is a massive war, lots of people need to appreciate it more for what it is, a part of eve history and a chance to get in on some great fights - it is not singularly "The War to Protect my Corporations Veldspar Mining Rights" Quote: hate the game I understand the sentiment here, but honestly, do you realise what you're also saying here? Hate the game? How about "Enjoy the game"? The rest of the stuff is fairly decent and I can't really fault as advice, but some of the stuff was a bit bizarre/off. And yeah, lol @ Symbian.
Eddie Hybrid Syndicate Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:10:00 - [15] Good post and a loth of truth in it Originally by: Riddari -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OFFICIAL BOB wins EVE-OFFLINE Lets see how EVE-ONLINE goes.
Zadir Gallente Twizted Holdings Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:10:00 - [16] uhm yeah....Nvm
Roland 99 Minmatar Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:15:00 - [17] I bet if that was posted by BoD it wouldn't have been sniipped This is like fighting the communist party _______
Darc Kaahar Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:15:00 - [18] Originally by: R0ot I think you mean symbiont as symbian sounds more like a 'toy' i've heard of... Do you mean sylvanian families, Those cute charming collectable characters? Man I really wanted them for my 7th birthday, but I got a gammy GI Joe instead, later I ate too much ice cream and got sick in my mothers knicker drawer.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:16:00 - [19] Edited by: Plutoinum on 19/02/2007 06:12:19 Originally by: Nooey If you want to win, your fleet needs to have discipline first, a desire to be instantly gratified a distant second. The entertainment that a meaningful success brings is far better than the fleeting enjoyment you get from a senseless "leeroy". Actually this is true. Especially if some of your guys have problems to replace their ships already, a senseless leroy will result in people not bringing their more expensive equipment anymore or just not joining up for gangs with people, who have leroyed too often. The best fights are of course, when you win outnumbered, but several leroys in a row, people losing expensive stuff and the morale is down. _______ I came, I read, I lol'ed.
R0ot InNova Tech Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Darc Kaahar Originally by: R0ot I think you mean symbiont as symbian sounds more like a 'toy' i've heard of... Do you mean sylvanian families, Those cute charming collectable characters? Man I really wanted them for my 7th birthday, but I got a gammy GI Joe instead, later I ate too much ice cream and got sick in my mothers knicker drawer. Yeah sure Darc m8, thats exactly what i mean... ___________________________________________________________________
Darc Kaahar Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:20:00 - [21] Originally by: R0ot Originally by: Darc Kaahar Originally by: R0ot I think you mean symbiont as symbian sounds more like a 'toy' i've heard of... Do you mean sylvanian families, Those cute charming collectable characters? Man I really wanted them for my 7th birthday, but I got a gammy GI Joe instead, later I ate too much ice cream and got sick in my mothers knicker drawer. Yeah sure Darc m8, thats exactly what i mean... Well what 'toy' does it remind you of so? I'm intrigued.
Iva Soreass FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. How long did that war last ? How did you keep them at bay if "ASCN" is no more ? ----------------------------------------------- http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4317/creditcard22es4.jpg Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
Mimiru Gallente BIG Advanced Assault Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:26:00 - [23] Thanks for telling us everything we already knew? --------- Join my corp! shoot people!
Spinnukur Beyond-Redemption Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:27:00 - [24] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Who would of thought good sense needed to be stated so fiercly. Uh, huh...wait, aren't you a BOB slave copr? I'm pretty sure you guys were running away from SMASH today in HED... Great post Nor, common sense is common sense, but people tend to be stupid when they post on EVE forums.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:28:00 - [25] Hmm nice read and good advice :) Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and
Admentus Cor'vion Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:30:00 - [26] You are providing sound advice, but methinks that lack of that "military" infrastructure and maybe having the wrong people for the jobs. Quote: In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. Quote: Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people's fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril. Quote: Hence it is only the enlightened and wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. Spies are the most important asset, because on them depends an army's ability to march. Quote: There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:-- a) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army. b) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. c) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, [That is, he is not careful to use the right man in the right place.] through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers. Be mindful, the advice that you offer is fine, but your advice comes quite late, and in a forum which may concoct a notion of scrambling to disseminate information. I would hope lines of communication are not so poor?
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:39:00 - [27] [ Is all I got to say :pirate:] Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Spinnukur Beyond-Redemption Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Iva Soreass Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. How long did that war last ? How did you keep them at bay if "ASCN" is no more ? Because ASCN lost there will to fight, they did keep them at bay, the majority of ASCN's players just didn't want to do it anymore.
ph33rf4ct0ry Minmatar Hookers From Mars	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:44:00 - [29] New twist on the old but favorite "why can people help us beat bob". This from a disenfranchised alliance who utterly failed to deliver on all fronts. There might be some truths in that statement but it's hard to take advise on winning from a looser. Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY
Dufas Amarr Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:44:00 - [30] If your info is so useful..why are u posting from empire and attacking bob allies worked well for u didnt it __________
Nastratu Minmatar Serefon Creatin	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:47:00 - [31] Now lets just hope that FCs actually read the forum ...
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:56:00 - [32] Originally by: Spinnukur Originally by: Iva Soreass Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. How long did that war last ? How did you keep them at bay if "ASCN" is no more ? Because ASCN lost there will to fight, they did keep them at bay, the majority of ASCN's players just didn't want to do it anymore. And it will happen again. ----------
Arithon Draedus NQX Logistics	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:10:00 - [33] awesome post! Thank you noreen!
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Noreen stuff Youve managed to both overestimate and underestimate bob in the same post. Congrats on that. I could see how it might seem like good info to some ppl, but its not. For ppl to take the military advice of ASCN members would still be as unwise at it ever was.
Roland 99 Minmatar Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:26:00 - [35] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Noreen stuff Youve managed to both overestimate and underestimate bob in the same post. Congrats on that. I could see how it might seem like good info to some ppl, but its not. For ppl to take the military advice of ASCN members would still be as unwise at it ever was. ya know she posted that because she's point out some of the things that ASCN did not do right. Your interpretation and assumptions are pretty wrong _______
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Roland 99 Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Noreen stuff Youve managed to both overestimate and underestimate bob in the same post. Congrats on that. I could see how it might seem like good info to some ppl, but its not. For ppl to take the military advice of ASCN members would still be as unwise at it ever was. ya know she posted that because she's point out some of the things that ASCN did not do right. Your interpretation and assumptions are pretty wrong Are they? Cause I'm not making assumptions. This is what I know.
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:32:00 - [37] Edited by: pershphanie on 19/02/2007 07:29:07 For example: Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) Wrong Originally by: Noreen 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. Wrong Originally by: Noreen 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. wrong Originally by: Noreen 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. Wrong But yall go ahead and find out the hard way. HF making the same mistakes that have been repeated over and over.
Elad Dranoel Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:33:00 - [38] Congrats, you just graduated from the first grade. And you're posting this meaningless info here, why? I know you feel like you're smart since you just learned this, but next time, keep it to yourself kiddo. snip Your signature may not contain any profanity - Kreul Intentions
Chirinako Caldari Legionari Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:51:00 - [39] Edited by: Chirinako on 19/02/2007 07:49:21 Originally by: Raivi Edited by: Raivi on 19/02/2007 05:46:32 Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. It seems to me that this is going to be the key to the outcome of the war. If BoB can keep up their mad rush from system to system saving the day then they can hold out almost indefinitely. If their opposition can time attacks and POS assaults to occur at the same time then some of those attacks can succeed. BoB as a group is very very good at this, but they can only be in one place at a time. If they can continue using the Titans and fast fleet movement to keep on top of their opponents then they will win, if they start falling behind they lose. If LV fall and Querious is kept under Siege then Bob's ability to defend themselves is weakened. Bob will have Goons and co on their back door while D2 knock on their front door. If Iron/MM/Trium/PURE/whoever else attacking Querious succeeds, that's an extra 250 pilots per night on average that Bob will have to deal with, nevermind the thousands of goons >.> This whole war is a pot of if's though. If this, If that. Bob are doing well so far.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Matrices Reborn Edited by: Matrices Reborn on 19/02/2007 05:58:15 First decent ASCN analysis by leadership I've seen. Sadly that includes all the time I was fighting in ASCN. You are still fighting in ASCN for all intents and purposes... or PA... that sort of thing anyway... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:58:00 - [41] Originally by: pershphanie rebuttals Purely for my own amusement I thought I would address some of the points you thought were off centre Persh and shed some light onto why they aren't as misguided as it might seem. Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) This point is dependant on how you read it. It is naively worded but if you don't take it completely at face value there is some merit to it. BoB can field what 200 pilots max? in any one system. Great pvpers as they are they cannot fight two large engagments at once. Its physically impossible. If two of their stations are getting attacked, they have to chose to defend one of them.. they cannot defend both at the same time. Originally by: Noreen 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. Again, the wording is naive but the essence of what is being said is true enough... if sufficient numbers are brought to bear on 2 locations.. BoB has to chose one of them. They are not magicians. Originally by: Noreen 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. This statement is again simplistic... but.... BoB's pets/tennants have limited stamina. They are not geared up to fight a protracted war involving capital ships and POS warfare, or else they would have long found their own home to live in. Their role is to support the main fleets which belong to BoB. If the coaltion can achieve some decent successes.. there will be a time when the rank and file of the tennant alliances ask themselves if fighting BoB's war is something they want to expend all their efforts on. Originally by: Noreen 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. Again.. simplistic.. but not too far off the mark. BoB as the landlord of its tennants has had a direct or indirect effect on the way these alliances have been evolving over time. Standings, modus operandi etc.. etc.. have all been influenced by BoB. If you erode the relationship between BoB and their tennants, the very type of existance they have been leading will come into question. Once that happens, its not large step for the tennants to decide that their relationship with BoB is counter productive. Everybody has a price.... or a limit to the price they are willing to pay to keep a non-productive relationship alive. The difficult thing for the coalition to achieve IMO is cohesiveness... can they keep the myriad of alliances rallied against BoB, focused? They are going to suffer large casualties.. maybe even another couple of Titans and maybe up to 30 dreads before BoB starts to break. And my personal opinion is that the anti-BoB sentiment is so strong that it could keep the coalition together. It is the first time that I have seen such sentiment sweep the entire community. Infact this war could probably be dubbed the EMO-wars, nothing makes people log on more than feeling very strongly about something. And there is a lot of strong feelings surrounding this conflict.
Desiderious Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:01:00 - [42] Edited by: Desiderious on 19/02/2007 07:57:51 ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^ Your sig is too large. Please resize it so that it fits within 400x120. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
TrippyX Caldari The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Iva Soreass Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. How long did that war last ? About 3-4 months, depending on what a person qualifies as the "end of war" point. As for things said by OP, they're true. ____________________ I ♥ [TSYND]
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:36:00 - [44] I don't think you believe everything youve posted here, but ill play along :p Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) This point is dependant on how you read it. It is naively worded but if you don't take it completely at face value there is some merit to it. BoB can field what 200 pilots max? in any one system. Great pvpers as they are they cannot fight two large engagments at once. Its physically impossible. If two of their stations are getting attacked, they have to chose to defend one of them.. they cannot defend both at the same time. You over estimate the power of the blob. When being sieged # of pilots has alot less value than ppl give it. quality + tactics > numbers. And almost all bob members have atleast two accounts with a pvp character on each. Don't think they can defend multiple systems at once? I think we will find out soon enough. Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Noreen 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. This statement is again simplistic... but.... BoB's pets/tennants have limited stamina. They are not geared up to fight a protracted war involving capital ships and POS warfare, or else they would have long found their own home to live in. Their role is to support the main fleets which belong to BoB. If the coaltion can achieve some decent successes.. there will be a time when the rank and file of the tennant alliances ask themselves if fighting BoB's war is something they want to expend all their efforts on. BoB allies have the same thing that bob members have that allows them to hold out longer than anyone else on a battlefield. Faith that the ppl above them know what they are doing and will win. And rightfully so. Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Noreen 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. Again.. simplistic.. but not too far off the mark. BoB as the landlord of its tennants has had a direct or indirect effect on the way these alliances have been evolving over time. Standings, modus operandi etc.. etc.. have all been influenced by BoB. If you erode the relationship between BoB and their tennants, the very type of existance they have been leading will come into question. Once that happens, its not large step for the tennants to decide that their relationship with BoB is counter productive. Everybody has a price.... or a limit to the price they are willing to pay to keep a non-productive relationship alive. But still. The assumption that bob somehow needs its residents/pets/slaves/***es/whatever is completely false. The whole "hit them in the pocketbook idea is totally moronic. It's been tried over and over. But any half way decent alliance of vets cant be killed by stopping their pets. That only works with noob alliances. Originally by:** Nez Perces The difficult thing for the coalition to achieve IMO is cohesiveness... can they keep the myriad of alliances rallied against BoB, focused? They are going to suffer large casualties.. maybe even another couple of Titans and maybe up to 30 dreads before BoB starts to break. IMO this coalition is a house of cards. There are just too many things out there that can make it fall apart. Originally by: Nez Perces And my personal opinion is that the anti-BoB sentiment is so strong that it could keep the coalition together. It is the first time that I have seen such sentiment sweep the entire community. If wars could be won by intentions bob would lose. But it takes actually ppl to win it. The only ppl i think have it in them to stick it out on the anti bob side are CA. Thats not enough.
Alais Wiccanfae Gallente Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:40:00 - [45] Edited by: Alais Wiccanfae on 19/02/2007 08:36:58 Thankyou for that post, for someone who doesn't pretend to have been there and done that, nor wants to be involved in the fleet/alliance control aspects of the game that was an enlightening post.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:41:00 - [46] Isn't it amazing how everyone on both sides of this war have totally opposite views of every single issue? Surely we are not biased?
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Shin Ra Isn't it amazing how everyone on both sides of this war have totally opposite views of every single issue? Surely we are not biased? impossible. leave my ***** signature alone ***********
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Noreen 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. Sounds like a plan to me :) Something even us little corps can do. Thanks!! *When you absolutly NEED to know...*
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:49:00 - [49] Excellent post Noreen, even better for **ing off the sad alt brigade so well, n1 tickety tickety tock Quote:** Whats becoming so obvious these days, is, in this game it's not what you know, it's who you know, how sad
Athelas Loraiel Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:51:00 - [50] Good work, hope ppl read this without smallsouled alt comments. Maybe a good thing would be to post officialy all their T2 POSes on forums? That'd be a blast, you know we do have some info. -------------- On the lookout for /restricted word that means ppl who work on the game/ in BOD disguise. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] -Oiri Yusko
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:57:00 - [51] Edited by: Nez Perces on 19/02/2007 08:55:58 Originally by: pershphanie Don't think they can defend multiple systems at once? I think we will find out soon enough. After reading your replies, I believe the main disagreement we have is this one. Lets say BoB pilots have 2 pvp accounts each. Do they have a computer for each account too? The way the servers are behaving in large engagments, is it really possible to run two accounts on the same PC fighting in different systems? Even if it was possible such a level of exertion has a limited timeframe. Large fleet battles can be quite tireing in RL. Fighting 2 of them at the same time even more so. And we are only talking of 2 fronts.. what happens if BoB find that there are three concerted attacks ocurring simultaneously.... I can just about belive that all BoB pilots have 2 pvp accounts... but three? With the sheer numbers rallied against them... it is only a question of time before BoB pilots start to feel the pressure on even their RL's. OFC you may be right in saying that the coalition is a house of cards.. if that is the case, this time next week we will start to see the signs of it falling apart. However, my instinct tells me that this time..... they might just go all the way.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 08:59:00 - [52] I can't wait to dock again in NOL under a new corporation. This post gave me some ideas. Pwnage PvP Recruitment \m/ Metal Head \m/
RichThugster Gallente 0riginal Pirate Material	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:00:00 - [53] if you know all that stuff, why didnt you kill BOB? I think theres one and only one person in old ASCN that the Choo-Choo Train should listen to, and thats CYVOK, other than that, you guys get back to mining for your new outpost
Minikrimi Extreme Zephyr Manufacturing Group SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:11:00 - [54] I can't say that all of this is good advice, because honestly I don't know how to separate the germ from the chaff when it comes to grand strategy in Eve. I keep being told that I make a much better mayor than a general. But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I would argue that there are different circumstances this time around, as it is not ASCN alone but a massive coalition against BoB. Although at first I was really ticked that so many had hopped on the bandwagon, I have come to realize (after plumbing the past threads here) that it is exactly what we've been building up towards. BoB is being given a challenge. They have the enemy that they have been looking for. The circumstances are crappy, I don't doubt that they EVER wanted it to be over something like this. They wanted it to be over them being a-holes and so much better that the universe caught fire around them. Remember, they started out as the anti-alliance. Back on track-- Don't dismiss the words of the OP because of their source, those who fought BoB and lost I'm sure have valuable lessons to teach us. If they are bad advice overall, dismiss it on that basis, but guidance oh what not to do comes best from those who already tried it. Just my viewpoint.
Octaviun Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:18:00 - [55] So these "Tactics" were suppose to be the sure way of beating BoB? How come ASCN didn't use this? They just died in a fire. Pretty sure there Max fleets arn't 175, maybe its that small because they are on other fronts aswell? and even if there fleets are so small, theres a Battle that took place today in Y-2 clearly they were outnumbered and they still made it on top _________________________________________________
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions.
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:23:00 - [57] Common sense makes you win , not teh current blind hate and anger . _____________ Im back !
s4mp3r0r ZiTek Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:29:00 - [58] another tip, have your forumwarriors check internet to find yet another BoD exploit not yet deemed exploit.. Here we go : Simple way to destroy an enemy capital fleet without ever seeing them: 1) Wait for hostile fleet to engage your POS with lots of guns and warp disruptor batteries. 2) Jump as many ships into the system as fast as you can 3) Hostile fleet will lag while the POS keeps attacking them with no lag 4) If the node dies and the capitals log back in, they will lag until they are dead, with not modules active.
Helina Malinos Caldari Euro Traders	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:42:00 - [59] Originally by: s4mp3r0r another tip, have your forumwarriors check internet to find yet another BoD exploit not yet deemed exploit.. Here we go : Simple way to destroy an enemy capital fleet without ever seeing them: 1) Wait for hostile fleet to engage your POS with lots of guns and warp disruptor batteries. 2) Jump as many ships into the system as fast as you can 3) Hostile fleet will lag while the POS keeps attacking them with no lag 4) If the node dies and the capitals log back in, they will lag until they are dead, with not modules active. I hope you get banned for advertising exploits and forcing node crashes. REMEMBER FOLKS ITS SAID HERE THAT POS ENCOURAGE EXPLOITS!
Lyer THE BLUE FLAG	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:50:00 - [60] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions. You just dont get it do you.... The advice posted in the OP is through HINDSIGHT, A glorious thing that allows people to look back see what happened, think what they SHOULD have done, learn from it and hopefully not do it again. Only this time as ASCN does not exisit the lessons learned are being passed on to others.
Manfred Sideous Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:01:00 - [61] Things not going as expected? Keep feeding the propaganda
Minikrimi Extreme Zephyr Manufacturing Group SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:28:00 - [62] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions. Right, so the OP posted old, failed tactics instead of the lessons learned? I had a friend who dropped Eve-O entirely because of some of the things listed here, such as constant berating, abusive evemails, non-acknowledgement in his corp about the few that actually did something, being left idling for an hour after a pvp op was supposed to start and then yelled at because he had to log, stuff like that. Too bad, because he was the one who encouraged me to return to Eve. So I would say that at least some of these lessons are, in fact, lessons learned rather than failed concepts. Not everyone keeps trying the same failed tactics, and sometimes tactics fail because of poor leadership rather than simply poor conception. But my contribution to pewpew comes mostly in the grunt level, grand strategy is something I don't do well at. I merely know not to chuck the voice of experience because of failure. Often those who have failed have learned from thier mistakes. That's all I'm saying. Diss the advice as poor because it is poor, not because the source lost. Such a person could, in fact, be considered a valuable consultant.
Squirl	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:31:00 - [63] Originally by: Helina Malinos Originally by: s4mp3r0r another tip, have your forumwarriors check internet to find yet another BoD exploit not yet deemed exploit.. Here we go : Simple way to destroy an enemy capital fleet without ever seeing them: 1) Wait for hostile fleet to engage your POS with lots of guns and warp disruptor batteries. 2) Jump as many ships into the system as fast as you can 3) Hostile fleet will lag while the POS keeps attacking them with no lag 4) If the node dies and the capitals log back in, they will lag until they are dead, with not modules active. I hope you get banned for advertising exploits and forcing node crashes. REMEMBER FOLKS ITS SAID HERE THAT POS ENCOURAGE EXPLOITS! These are tricks BoD used againts POS, you muppet
The Anointed Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:33:00 - [64] Some of the points in the OP are at least a little interesting, maybe not spot on, but heading in the right direction. There are a few things that in my opinion have either not been thought of, or were a little biased; 1) The Alliances affiliated but not in BoB. Everyone assumes they are interested in isk. What if they are interested in learning? Perhaps they want to fight in order to gain the respect of what has been for years the pvp force that everyone talks about, sometimes with envy? Maybe they are hoping for continued relations with BoB win or loose? 2)LV in the south. Now I think as far as the end of LV, I think that you will either see it happen overnight, because of internal affairs, or you wont see it happen unless BoB folds as well. BoB are unlikely to take their only ally and say 'You loose your space and we wont want to know you!' They are more likley to accomodate LV regardless of where or how, would you leave them out to dry? That then changes the whole situation. The points about fleet size and attacking defending systems then becomes less valid, but still troublesome when you look at the number of attackers. 3) Back to the affiliatd alliances, I would say that the 1 can not live without the other is slightly true, the affiliated alliances wont be able to field a good defence without BoB, but BoB will still be the same force, with negligible affect if all of their affiliates were wiped out over night. The only difference is the coallition will be focused in attacking fewer systems. This may seem like an overly friendly post, but I always have a habbit of playing devils advocate. The main things I think BoB will struggle to deal with will be when the buffer space they have to play with is eroded and the full number that the coalition can field becomes harder to deal with. The whole situation is fantastic from many points of view and to be honest its what the game has needed. BoB always said 'bring it' and are probably content with what is going on. The only thing the community in my opinion needs to keep in mind is that you will not get a surrender out of the BoB corps, they wont back down and they need to be killed, killed and killed again, so they never get back to what they were. It will no doubt be bloody, and to some extend boring as hell, but its certainly within reach. On an end note, the use of spying is something everyone needs to deal with, its a semi realistic part of the game, and it takes time and effort for it to pay off properly, so if you invest that time/effort, then so be it. The use of misinformation can be just as effective. **These are my own personal views and are based on being bored whilst at Uni, and do not represent my corp/alliance/hamster or the voices in my head**
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:42:00 - [65] He with an effective capital fleet in the end wins.
Aira Phlux Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:49:00 - [66] Originally by: Noreen 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. lol yeah open to the highest veld bidder Nothing like bitter comments from wars past to loose what dignity you had
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:52:00 - [67] Edited by: pershphanie on 19/02/2007 10:53:32 Originally by: Dragutinovic Common sense makes you win , not teh current blind hate and anger . wise words. Hate can make ppl show up to the fight. It can not however win the fight. The leaders of the antibob side can not think about hating bob when trying to defeat them. RA can handle this maybe even D2, but I don't think the rest can. However so far it seems everyone is distracted by debating whether or not bob is exploiting every step of the way. That's not going to help one bit.
Coasterbrian Loss of Sanity	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:00:00 - [68] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan He with an effective capital fleet in the end wins. Indeed. ---------- Loss of Sanity.
Aakron Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:05:00 - [69] Thanks to these shocking revelations BoB must indeed be in trouble now! ---
Malkavian Spirit Minmatar Instant Travel Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:11:00 - [70] Heres a simple cold hard fact, if you want to beat bob attack it from inside. Nothing kills an alliance faster then low morale and fighting between the corps and members, bob has spys within their alliance as well use them properly if you know what I mean. I know for a fact that some corps in bob have hard times keeping morale up or they arent even trying and are just taking their members for granted so use that to your advantage. GL!
Blue Stratos Amarr BOOM - Gotcha	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:12:00 - [71] Im sorry but.... if your so full of good advice Why is ASCN DEAD? Look, your a siore loser, we get this, you don't like bob, who does? I do, i think that all 0.0 space should be ruled by 1 alliance, the reason u hate bob is simple ASCN where arragont, stupid and made out they where god, u then went up agaisnt bob who also made out they where god, turns out, u where wrong and bob where right Seriously, ur a dead corp froma dead alliance, when u actually have an impact on this conflict, ill listen, till then, stop posting
Iva Soreass FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:13:00 - [72] Originally by: Spinnukur Because ASCN lost there will to fight, they did keep them at bay, the majority of ASCN's players just didn't want to do it anymore. Ok, So they "Didn't" keep them at bay then did they. ----------------------------------------------- http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4317/creditcard22es4.jpg Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
Goberth Ludwig The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:25:00 - [73] OP is wrong, and not for the reasons persh typed: Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 4) DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. If you want to fight on your terms, people WILL get bored. Patience is the price to pay to win, so 1) and 4) go against each other - but thats something most ascn members never accepted. Originally by: Noreen THIS PART IS WHAT WORKS AGAINST BOB 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. True, they cannnot - but that wont kill them. Stations lost dont mean anything when they were lost without a fight. If they were reduced to npc stations but killed 9 dreads every night they would eventually get one station back then two then their whole space just like RA did. Winning fights, and morale, is all that matters and you dont need to be everywhere for that. Originally by: Noreen 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 100% effing wrong. Ganking their pets is useless. Either you take their stations and force them on your side/jita by killing their morale or you are just wasting time. Nobody cares about a bunch of people getting ganked at belts if anything thats their fault for not watching local. Thinking you can kill the economy of a med sized alliance by just jumping around their belts is daydreaming, focus on forming fleets tbh. Originally by: Noreen 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. False, bob is rich enough to run without the pets, thats for sure. Most vet pvpers are self sufficient anyway. People fighting bob should first of all acknowledge the fact they are very good at what they do despite the totally disgracefull attitude, and second find a reason why a group of player thats been playing together with great success for nearly 3 years should disband, split up or give up and try to work towards making that happen. Good luck =) - Gob
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Dragutinovic Common sense makes you win , not teh current blind hate and anger . But that's only side effect of the forums where you have alts from both sides trying to stir. Nothing much to pay attention to because it certainly is not the same way ingame.
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:45:00 - [75] Originally by: Noreen Superb stuff! Excellent Noreen, as a high level strategy this is exactly whats been going on, needs to go on, then the final cleansing of the galaxy is merely a matter of time Thank'e m'lady > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
S'Beech Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:55:00 - [76] Originally by: Squirl Originally by: Helina Malinos Originally by: s4mp3r0r another tip, have your forumwarriors check internet to find yet another BoD exploit not yet deemed exploit.. Here we go : Simple way to destroy an enemy capital fleet without ever seeing them: 1) Wait for hostile fleet to engage your POS with lots of guns and warp disruptor batteries. 2) Jump as many ships into the system as fast as you can 3) Hostile fleet will lag while the POS keeps attacking them with no lag 4) If the node dies and the capitals log back in, they will lag until they are dead, with not modules active. I hope you get banned for advertising exploits and forcing node crashes. REMEMBER FOLKS ITS SAID HERE THAT POS ENCOURAGE EXPLOITS! These are tricks BoD used againts POS, you muppet Ignore her.She was arguing the other day that AAA are ASCN alts!
Orlando Gardner Amarr The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.19 12:16:00 - [77] The OP's post is mainly about misdirection. it has a lot of common sense truth in it but some bad advice on tactics. BoD are using a classic propoganda technique i eat tinfoil for breakfast.
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.02.19 12:19:00 - [78] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Dragutinovic Common sense makes you win , not teh current blind hate and anger . But that's only side effect of the forums where you have alts from both sides trying to stir. Nothing much to pay attention to because it certainly is not the same way ingame. I know and im sure the vets from GNW do understand what i mean ;) _____________ Im back !
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 12:29:00 - [79] Get over it ASCN died, because they could not stand the test of times Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 12:38:00 - [80] Originally by: Goberth Ludwig OP is wrong, and not for the reasons persh typed: Originally by: Noreen 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 4) DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. If you want to fight on your terms, people WILL get bored. Patience is the price to pay to win, so 1) and 4) go against each other - but thats something most ascn members never accepted. lo Gobbins I think that what the OP meant is that, if you do not have the numbers/ships to engage a BoB fleet then DONT FF'ING ENGAGE it, swap out to different ship types and go roaming and try to get what kills you can on BoB & pals, keep your fleet together, keep it getting kills and having fun. Remember that killing the other sides fun factor is 90% of the battle, if you stop giving BoB easy kills and capital kills and instead just send lots of gangs around annoying them UNTIL you are ready to deploy the big guns then you will find it much for effective than throwing away 20 BS to kill 1. DO NOT go suiciding your fleet just because people are a bit bored, or because you want BoB to respect you (they wont they will just **** themselves laughing at you). If its not going to happen then bite the bullet, say so and get people to go do something else or play an alt, dont have people sat at a POS for 3+ hours because although it would be great if they would its just not realitic to expect it from any but the hardcore (half of whom are probably bob alts anyway ). The number of times we put ourselves into the situation where the FC felt pressured by whining fleet members to "do something" that they ended up taking chances and getting the whole thing killed. As for all the people saying "well if this is such good advice how come you all got killed" well it was because we didnt follow this advice Not saying I agree with it all but there is a lot of sense in it and if we had followed 50% of this we would have done better (though probably still lost).
hybridundertaker Amarr Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:19:00 - [81] Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. i thought the war lasted rathger week or 2 ... Is it a virtue to manage to keep pvp forces ''at bay''? I had a feeling gunships are made to be undocked, im a noob so correct me if im wrong
Red Crown	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:22:00 - [82] She speaks the truth folks. To the Coalition - read The Art of War. I'm not joking. The way this war works, you can fight on your terms. The northern alliance has to chip away Xelas / FIX/ Etc, its true they are a symbiotic relationship. Knocking out them is like knocking a chair out from under someone. If they are neutralized (through combat OR diplomacy), BoB loses a major source of income and materials. I'd also highly recommend that for now, the southerners concentrate on LV only. LV is surrounded. LV cannot last forever. With LV and their pet alliances down, the clock begins ticking. The biggest BoB fleet nowadays totals around 225. Its also 100% true BoB cannot hold or attack 2 systems at once. Yesterday Goons were writing graffiti on the walls of the NOL-M9 station while BoB was fighting D2. This war can be easily won. We just need the leadership to wise up a bit.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:56:00 - [83] Originally by: thoradh Originally by: Noreen Superb stuff! Excellent Noreen, as a high level strategy this is exactly whats been going on, needs to go on, then the final cleansing of the galaxy is merely a matter of time Thank'e m'lady If you think that post outlines high level strategy then you probably think Blue Peter discusses politics
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:53:00 - [84] Originally by: Fitz Chivalry (they wont they will just **** themselves laughing at you).. tbh i dont think this is restricted to BOB members.. the whole coalition just come across as amateur. Lots of bitter failures that think they have suddenly got the inspirational key to the holy grail of defeating BOB.. Most of which where thought of centuries ago, nvm being new to eve.. Can any of the allies look at each other and say that the alliance isnt there simply because they hope more numbers will work this time, where their own groups failed b4? While many like to claim metagaming etc as their reason they hate BOB, they are all allied directly, if not officially with groups that have done the same or worse. Another reason i've heard is they dont like BOB's "win at all cost" attitude.. Well isnt that why the coalition exists? To beat BOB no matter who that have to ally with? to have to go against your own natures in an effort to beat an enemy.. well isnt that win at all costs? Examples: The goons claim a culture of "putting their fingers in ppl's eyes" yet, infact they have to be nice to the majority of 0.0 eve The Old CA was a hugh influence ingame, the new version? a minor partner in the coalition.. D2 complain about BOB's spies, yet how many spies are their allies using? What they actually hate is they simply arent good enough alone, for me i find that hilairious. To hate someone else so intently because of their own failings, is well, a credit to them tbh.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
niroshido Caldari Soldiers Of Zahaar	Posted - 2007.02.19 15:28:00 - [85] The Art of war is suprize let thy enemy no little and i shall be victorious idea1: when you have a fleet devide the fleet up and send one part of the fleet a different route to lead to the destination, if you can disguise most of your fleet the enemy will not know whats happening and make fighting u less predictable this tactic is known as a pincer movement, by getting 1 part of your force to approach there flank whilst the other heads in direct (i.e. your best tankers , or a twin pronged attack decapitation: the complete cutoff of a route by perma bubble, this is expencive and requires a gate patrol, but it will limit travel thus decapitating enemy movements tri star strikes: the usage of a combined fleet, interception, heavy damage and cap fleets, the interception squad is to act like scout and to determine hostile powers within the area, after decyphering the position of the enemy away from a POS, the heavy damage fleet moves in to lock down the route, whilst the interception team harrasses hostile groupings, then the cap fleet is jumped into position to take the POS down several systems away cloak and dagger: the usage of stealth bombers and recons only, sent in small squads to kill indivuals who are attempting to make isk quad assault: Used to completely eradicate the enemy, step 1: find a POS or group of POS's 10+ jumps away from a hostile fleet, send in cap fleet step 2: second cap fleet attack another set several jump in opposite direction step 3: set up camps half way between each POS system being striked step 4: send in alpha strike forces to take stragglers approaching vecinity or trying to group up these are qwazy ideas and im bored
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.02.19 15:28:00 - [86] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Fitz Chivalry (they wont they will just **** themselves laughing at you).. . TBH for most its actually the favorism towards BoB that makes them very unliked and teh way CCP delt with recent events made it only worse . In fact i dont dislike BoB as a whole but i do dislike a very minor few of them and the unbiased threatment of CCP . _____________ Im back !
Elayne Atreus	Posted - 2007.02.19 15:34:00 - [87] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Fitz Chivalry (they wont they will just **** themselves laughing at you).. tbh i dont think this is restricted to BOB members.. the whole coalition just come across as amateur. Lots of bitter failures that think they have suddenly got the inspirational key to the holy grail of defeating BOB.. Most of which where thought of centuries ago, nvm being new to eve.. -------------------> <----------------------------------------------- What they actually hate is they simply arent good enough alone, for me i find that hilairious. To hate someone else so intently because of their own failings, is well, a credit to them tbh.. It's not about honour or uberness or 'professionalism' or hatred or resentment. It's about the last chance to put down an inevitable threat that can't be co-existed with, can't be negotiated with, can't be trusted, that WILL come knocking some day. It's about hanging together or hanging seperately BoB's uberness only matters to them, On this side, we don't admire them. We just want them gone. And we will do it with weight of numbers because numbers work. And we won't care that they find this in some way unfair because they will be gone, that is our aim and we don't care about their aims We want them gone.
liquidism Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:23:00 - [88] good writeup exept the part about forum whoring. wars are not fought with endless and boring discussions, chest beating and alike. only sense is to boost the morale of your guys if they should suffer a lack of it. cheers //liq
Xances	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:33:00 - [89] Edited by: Xances on 19/02/2007 17:29:32
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:40:00 - [90] Originally by: thoth foc Can any of the allies look at each other and say that the alliance isnt there simply because they hope more numbers will work this time, where their own groups failed b4? While many like to claim metagaming etc as their reason they hate BOB, they are all allied directly, if not officially with groups that have done the same or worse. Because we know it is now or never. Pretty much 99% of the coalition knows this, and we know that if we do not defeat bob here and now we'll never get another chance, and sooner or later they'll come knocking on our doorsteps. The entire north was united by their mutual dislike of bob(despite comments about the NAP train), and now old enemies are working together. I think you vastly underestimate our resolve.
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:56:00 - [91] I just don't see this panning out well for "the coalition" in the end. There are just too many people that don't know how to work together and too many interests involved. BoB and all of it's allies are used to functioning together, have great communication/intel, and have tons of assets locally. You are all pretty much underestimating the ability of Bob and friends and just calling it over without having the ability of looking at the whole picture. How many more GTCs will goons have to go thru to beat LV, let alone BoB? How much longer can D2 over-extend themselves in fountain while taking heavy losses? How long can people actually keep working together in the East, which is known to be notoriously fractional. You also underestimate the spirit of BoB's allies. Quite a few alliances that reside in their space and have nothing but a great relationship with each other. Quite a few of them don't pay anything. The ones that do pay choose to do so because it's much easier then wasting months building up in empire so they can fight and carve out a little piece of crap section of 0.0 for themselves which they have to defend. So to say that all of bob's allies are just slaves is retarded. I just think all this hatred is more jealousy then anything else. The north is fractured, so is the east and some of the southeast. But the southwest is a shining example of how tons of corps/alliances can reside and work together. Nobody else seems to understand this, so they flame. When the coalition can show this kind of resolve and unity, then I will start believing it's anything long-term.
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:56:00 - [92] I just don't see this panning out well for "the coalition" in the end. There are just too many people that don't know how to work together and too many interests involved. BoB and all of it's allies are used to functioning together, have great communication/intel, and have tons of assets locally. You are all pretty much underestimating the ability of Bob and friends and just calling it over without having the ability of looking at the whole picture. How many more GTCs will goons have to go thru to beat LV, let alone BoB? How much longer can D2 over-extend themselves in fountain while taking heavy losses? How long can people actually keep working together in the East, which is known to be notoriously fractional. You also underestimate the spirit of BoB's allies. Quite a few alliances that reside in their space and have nothing but a great relationship with each other. Quite a few of them don't pay anything. The ones that do pay choose to do so because it's much easier then wasting months building up in empire so they can fight and carve out a little piece of crap section of 0.0 for themselves which they have to defend. So to say that all of bob's allies are just slaves is retarded. I just think all this hatred is more jealousy then anything else. The north is fractured, so is the east and some of the southeast. But the southwest is a shining example of how tons of corps/alliances can reside and work together. Nobody else seems to understand this, so they flame. When the coalition can show this kind of resolve and unity, then I will start believing it's anything long-term.
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:56:00 - [93] I just don't see this panning out well for "the coalition" in the end. There are just too many people that don't know how to work together and too many interests involved. BoB and all of it's allies are used to functioning together, have great communication/intel, and have tons of assets locally. You are all pretty much underestimating the ability of Bob and friends and just calling it over without having the ability of looking at the whole picture. How many more GTCs will goons have to go thru to beat LV, let alone BoB? How much longer can D2 over-extend themselves in fountain while taking heavy losses? How long can people actually keep working together in the East, which is known to be notoriously fractional. You also underestimate the spirit of BoB's allies. Quite a few alliances that reside in their space and have nothing but a great relationship with each other. Quite a few of them don't pay anything. The ones that do pay choose to do so because it's much easier then wasting months building up in empire so they can fight and carve out a little piece of crap section of 0.0 for themselves which they have to defend. So to say that all of bob's allies are just slaves is retarded. I just think all this hatred is more jealousy then anything else. The north is fractured, so is the east and some of the southeast. But the southwest is a shining example of how tons of corps/alliances can reside and work together. Nobody else seems to understand this, so they flame. When the coalition can show this kind of resolve and unity, then I will start believing it's anything long-term.
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:02:00 - [94] Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR FCs 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 2) They have spies on your TS/VENT, have people in dedicated to filtering people who arent supposed to be there. 3) snip Please do not discuss this on the forums. --Elmo Pug 4) You decide to have an OP, FIX a time for it, 16:00 GMT, then 16:00 GMT it is , not 16:15, not 16:30, DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. 5) AS AN FC UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU MAKE A MOVE WITH CAPITAL SHIPS UNLESS YOU HAVE EYES ON THE NEAREST BOB FLEET, THEIR HEADING AND SHIPTYPES!!!!!!!!!! The second your dreads undock, your on borrowed time. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR CEOS 1) I dont pay 15bucks a month to hear you scream at me, 15 evemails a day to get my butt on the move when I've already spent every isk on the frontline while other corpmate is mining in his hulk is not encouraging, DO NOT SPAM EVEMAIL! 2) Support your players, They are spending isk/time for the cause, MAKE SURE your directors are pulling their weight, often CEOs work like horses and directors go MIA in wartimes, the ones that are missing, KICK! A pvper will always be able to mine, a miner cannnot pvp, get that through your head. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR ALLIANCE LEVEL LEADERSHIP 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. 2) You DONT have any secrets from BoB, they have spies in at director level, BoB knows before you reveal your secret plans to your own alliance, get off your high horse and do something about it, POS rights only to CEOs. (ASCN did this way too late, look where it is now) 3) your alliance is not fighting alone and frankly cant! get it! ok! get on the horn with the other alliances, dont care if you dont get along, its not the time, unless you wanna go back to empire. THIS PART IS WHAT WORKS AGAINST BOB 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. STATUS REPORT! BoB is in trouble, because it knows the second LV folds (4weeks or less) the south comes knocking on BoB's door, it knows the north has to be completely demoralized within 4 weeks, so here is what I suggest to the north, KEEP GANKING BoB to keep them busy, keep your dreads docked and safe because you cant win this alone, wait till the south is 100% in and then let the masacre begin, Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE and frankly BoB fear them. BoB knows its over, its going down in blaze of glory, to them I salute as an alliance they were awesome industrialists (minus the GM thing), pvpers, friends and enemies, To Most people who hate BoB, I say dont hate the player, hate the game, CCP has allowed players to abuse game mechanics, use exploits, never documented their game, BoB just took advantage of a bad situation, but it CCP that allowed it. signed this is what iv been trying to say w/o being so eloquent. SUPPORT THE COALITION. bob=tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Pow
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:02:00 - [95] Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR FCs 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 2) They have spies on your TS/VENT, have people in dedicated to filtering people who arent supposed to be there. 3) snip Please do not discuss this on the forums. --Elmo Pug 4) You decide to have an OP, FIX a time for it, 16:00 GMT, then 16:00 GMT it is , not 16:15, not 16:30, DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. 5) AS AN FC UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU MAKE A MOVE WITH CAPITAL SHIPS UNLESS YOU HAVE EYES ON THE NEAREST BOB FLEET, THEIR HEADING AND SHIPTYPES!!!!!!!!!! The second your dreads undock, your on borrowed time. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR CEOS 1) I dont pay 15bucks a month to hear you scream at me, 15 evemails a day to get my butt on the move when I've already spent every isk on the frontline while other corpmate is mining in his hulk is not encouraging, DO NOT SPAM EVEMAIL! 2) Support your players, They are spending isk/time for the cause, MAKE SURE your directors are pulling their weight, often CEOs work like horses and directors go MIA in wartimes, the ones that are missing, KICK! A pvper will always be able to mine, a miner cannnot pvp, get that through your head. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR ALLIANCE LEVEL LEADERSHIP 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. 2) You DONT have any secrets from BoB, they have spies in at director level, BoB knows before you reveal your secret plans to your own alliance, get off your high horse and do something about it, POS rights only to CEOs. (ASCN did this way too late, look where it is now) 3) your alliance is not fighting alone and frankly cant! get it! ok! get on the horn with the other alliances, dont care if you dont get along, its not the time, unless you wanna go back to empire. THIS PART IS WHAT WORKS AGAINST BOB 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. STATUS REPORT! BoB is in trouble, because it knows the second LV folds (4weeks or less) the south comes knocking on BoB's door, it knows the north has to be completely demoralized within 4 weeks, so here is what I suggest to the north, KEEP GANKING BoB to keep them busy, keep your dreads docked and safe because you cant win this alone, wait till the south is 100% in and then let the masacre begin, Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE and frankly BoB fear them. BoB knows its over, its going down in blaze of glory, to them I salute as an alliance they were awesome industrialists (minus the GM thing), pvpers, friends and enemies, To Most people who hate BoB, I say dont hate the player, hate the game, CCP has allowed players to abuse game mechanics, use exploits, never documented their game, BoB just took advantage of a bad situation, but it CCP that allowed it. signed this is what iv been trying to say w/o being so eloquent. SUPPORT THE COALITION. bob=tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Pow
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:02:00 - [96] Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR FCs 1) BoB only engages when they think they have an advantage to win, forget your pride and regroup, ONLY fight on your terms, forgot about honor, its about winning, your enemy doesnt care, neither should you, your responsibility if to keep your fleet alive and complete your objective. 2) They have spies on your TS/VENT, have people in dedicated to filtering people who arent supposed to be there. 3) snip Please do not discuss this on the forums. --Elmo Pug 4) You decide to have an OP, FIX a time for it, 16:00 GMT, then 16:00 GMT it is , not 16:15, not 16:30, DONT bore your fleet, DONT wait by POS, pew pew is what keeps your fleet alive and numbers up, lack of it only makes station jokeys and game quitters. 5) AS AN FC UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU MAKE A MOVE WITH CAPITAL SHIPS UNLESS YOU HAVE EYES ON THE NEAREST BOB FLEET, THEIR HEADING AND SHIPTYPES!!!!!!!!!! The second your dreads undock, your on borrowed time. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR CEOS 1) I dont pay 15bucks a month to hear you scream at me, 15 evemails a day to get my butt on the move when I've already spent every isk on the frontline while other corpmate is mining in his hulk is not encouraging, DO NOT SPAM EVEMAIL! 2) Support your players, They are spending isk/time for the cause, MAKE SURE your directors are pulling their weight, often CEOs work like horses and directors go MIA in wartimes, the ones that are missing, KICK! A pvper will always be able to mine, a miner cannnot pvp, get that through your head. THIS PART IS MEANT FOR ALLIANCE LEVEL LEADERSHIP 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. 2) You DONT have any secrets from BoB, they have spies in at director level, BoB knows before you reveal your secret plans to your own alliance, get off your high horse and do something about it, POS rights only to CEOs. (ASCN did this way too late, look where it is now) 3) your alliance is not fighting alone and frankly cant! get it! ok! get on the horn with the other alliances, dont care if you dont get along, its not the time, unless you wanna go back to empire. THIS PART IS WHAT WORKS AGAINST BOB 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time. (they fleet max size is 175) 2) BoB cannot ATTACK more then 1 system at a time. 3) GANK their pets to hell, they will provide you with enough loot 4) BoB slaves only interested in veld and isk, they dont care and would easily turn on BoB if they thought it was in their interest, Make it so. 5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them. STATUS REPORT! BoB is in trouble, because it knows the second LV folds (4weeks or less) the south comes knocking on BoB's door, it knows the north has to be completely demoralized within 4 weeks, so here is what I suggest to the north, KEEP GANKING BoB to keep them busy, keep your dreads docked and safe because you cant win this alone, wait till the south is 100% in and then let the masacre begin, Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE and frankly BoB fear them. BoB knows its over, its going down in blaze of glory, to them I salute as an alliance they were awesome industrialists (minus the GM thing), pvpers, friends and enemies, To Most people who hate BoB, I say dont hate the player, hate the game, CCP has allowed players to abuse game mechanics, use exploits, never documented their game, BoB just took advantage of a bad situation, but it CCP that allowed it. signed this is what iv been trying to say w/o being so eloquent. SUPPORT THE COALITION. bob=tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Pow
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:08:00 - [97] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz You left us off the list. Probably better for you anyway Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:08:00 - [98] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz You left us off the list. Probably better for you anyway Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:08:00 - [99] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz You left us off the list. Probably better for you anyway Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Evealin	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:09:00 - [100] nice post..but you forgot something.....remember at 8.4.2006
Evealin	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:09:00 - [101] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Eldo Davip ([email protected])
Evealin	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:09:00 - [102] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Eldo Davip ([email protected])
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:16:00 - [103] Originally by: thoth foc rabble You're spending far too much time and effort analyzing the goings-ons in this online game. The simple fact of the matter is that all the people fighting against bob+guests dislike bob+guests for various reasons, and decided to unite to have a go at them. It's exactly what bob wanted and they've stated it many times. They want this war. We want this war. Any other analysis or discussion is just mental ************. It's as simple as that. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:16:00 - [104] Originally by: thoth foc rabble You're spending far too much time and effort analyzing the goings-ons in this online game. The simple fact of the matter is that all the people fighting against bob+guests dislike bob+guests for various reasons, and decided to unite to have a go at them. It's exactly what bob wanted and they've stated it many times. They want this war. We want this war. Any other analysis or discussion is just mental ************. It's as simple as that. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:19:00 - [105] Originally by: Troubadour I just don't see this panning out well for "the coalition" in the end. There are just too many people that don't know how to work together and too many interests involved. BoB and all of it's allies are used to functioning together, have great communication/intel, and have tons of assets locally. You are all pretty much underestimating the ability of Bob and friends and just calling it over without having the ability of looking at the whole picture. How many more GTCs will goons have to go thru to beat LV, let alone BoB? How much longer can D2 over-extend themselves in fountain while taking heavy losses? How long can people actually keep working together in the East, which is known to be notoriously fractional. You also underestimate the spirit of BoB's allies. Quite a few alliances that reside in their space and have nothing but a great relationship with each other. Quite a few of them don't pay anything. The ones that do pay choose to do so because it's much easier then wasting months building up in empire so they can fight and carve out a little piece of crap section of 0.0 for themselves which they have to defend. So to say that all of bob's allies are just slaves is retarded. I just think all this hatred is more jealousy then anything else. The north is fractured, so is the east and some of the southeast. But the southwest is a shining example of how tons of corps/alliances can reside and work together. Nobody else seems to understand this, so they flame. When the coalition can show this kind of resolve and unity, then I will start believing it's anything long-term. It's not meant to be anything long-term. Win or lose, the "coalition" will go back to shooting each-other like they did before this war. The objective isn't to unite eve, it's to fight and kill bob. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:19:00 - [106] Originally by: Troubadour I just don't see this panning out well for "the coalition" in the end. There are just too many people that don't know how to work together and too many interests involved. BoB and all of it's allies are used to functioning together, have great communication/intel, and have tons of assets locally. You are all pretty much underestimating the ability of Bob and friends and just calling it over without having the ability of looking at the whole picture. How many more GTCs will goons have to go thru to beat LV, let alone BoB? How much longer can D2 over-extend themselves in fountain while taking heavy losses? How long can people actually keep working together in the East, which is known to be notoriously fractional. You also underestimate the spirit of BoB's allies. Quite a few alliances that reside in their space and have nothing but a great relationship with each other. Quite a few of them don't pay anything. The ones that do pay choose to do so because it's much easier then wasting months building up in empire so they can fight and carve out a little piece of crap section of 0.0 for themselves which they have to defend. So to say that all of bob's allies are just slaves is retarded. I just think all this hatred is more jealousy then anything else. The north is fractured, so is the east and some of the southeast. But the southwest is a shining example of how tons of corps/alliances can reside and work together. Nobody else seems to understand this, so they flame. When the coalition can show this kind of resolve and unity, then I will start believing it's anything long-term. It's not meant to be anything long-term. Win or lose, the "coalition" will go back to shooting each-other like they did before this war. The objective isn't to unite eve, it's to fight and kill bob. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:26:00 - [107] If ya take out all the drama, the war is awsome and i really hope it goes on for months and months. What else could you ask for? The all the main powerblocks in the game are involved and ships are going boom all over the place. I wish people would stop bandwagoning on the Bob hate and just fight for the sake of fighting. Why is the screen going dark? *** Sig Starts Here http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
Califax Oman Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:26:00 - [108] If ya take out all the drama, the war is awsome and i really hope it goes on for months and months. What else could you ask for? The all the main powerblocks in the game are involved and ships are going boom all over the place. I wish people would stop bandwagoning on the Bob hate and just fight for the sake of fighting. Why is the screen going dark? *** Sig Starts Here http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/Mimic-G/Califax-Final.jpg
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:37:00 - [109] Originally by: Zimi Vlasic Originally by: thoth foc rabble You're spending far too much time and effort analyzing the goings-ons in this online game. The simple fact of the matter is that all the people fighting against bob+guests dislike bob+guests for various reasons, and decided to unite to have a go at them. It's exactly what bob wanted and they've stated it many times. They want this war. We want this war. Any other analysis or discussion is just mental ************. It's as simple as that. LOL.. i'm glad actually thinking about a subject is somehow wrong I enjoy considering ppl's motivations and reasoning, if all i was interested in was flying ships about a screen, i would play a 1player game and always win The reasons for the war dont really matter, as the best "the coalition" can ever hope for from it, is replacing 1 hated group with another.. Anyone that has played this or any other large scale multiple player game for any length of time already knows this.. tbh i'm more interested in what happens if BOB win? Were do you go in a game when you have beaten everyone else? In the end I see both side winning and losing in this war.. no matter who gets bragging rights.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:42:00 - [110] Originally by: thoth foc In the end I see both side winning and losing in this war.. no matter who gets bragging rights.. Aye, BoB wins and they pretty much get bored and disband in a "vab nothing left to prove" type of way. Coalition wins and they break apart and start shooting each-other. Wait I see this as a win-win. People shooting people always = win. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Zimi Vlasic Originally by: thoth foc In the end I see both side winning and losing in this war.. no matter who gets bragging rights.. Aye, BoB wins and they pretty much get bored and disband in a "vab nothing left to prove" type of way. Coalition wins and they break apart and start shooting each-other. Wait I see this as a win-win. People shooting people always = win. There are always ppl that lose too.. not many will care about them.. but that doesnt mean they wont exist.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:05:00 - [112] this is an excellent post. One that needs to be heard all accross the eve universe. Once again Excellent POST!!!
Admentus Cor'vion Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:26:00 - [113] Originally by: USN CVN72 this is an excellent post. One that needs to be heard all accross the eve universe. Once again Excellent POST!!! Coming from you thats not a compliment.
Davlin Lotze Raging Destruction The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:42:00 - [114] Truly amazing. To this day people cannot fathom the fact that being infiltrated with spies doesn't come first and foremost from some amorphous situation with "lax recruiting policies." It comes most importantly from how you treat people who are doing things for you. If you have some loose cannon arsehat who can't control himself on TS berating everyone he comes into contact with or you have some antisocial **** out TK-ing fellow alliance members with no respect for chain of command, then you give your potential spy a REASON, a motive if you will, to perpetrate the crime of treason. Everyone knows the most important element in any crime investigation is MOTIVE. You have to ask WHY someone would offline all your posses? See YOUR role in that in terms of how you treated the person or perhaps their corp within your alliance. Accept responsibility for creating your own spies and traitors. Once you have set that straight and purged the antisocial arsholes you keep around only "because they did good things for XYZ alliance," then you'll see the turnaround. You will see your credibility, as an alliance leader, rise to the level that people won't have a reason to stab you in the back and twist the dagger! Or, just continue like some from ASCN have, and pretend it was something other than the "Rot from the inside" that brought you down.
Snodgey2004 Mega Modal M0nkeys	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:49:00 - [115] Hmmm , what I like to see after a day at work , lots of new topics , I'll not even read the replies to this one because I can't be the only one thinking this - If you know so much how BoB works and operates why are ASCN dead ? Or at least thats what I hope people are thinking
Lucututerian Die Diener Melkors	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:21:00 - [116] very nice post, awesome. WAR IS ****, BUT THE SOUND IS COOL!!
Isonkon Serikain Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:22:00 - [117] WEll, Snod, the answer to your question is simple... ASCN got owned because they learned all this really profound, arcane tactical stuff while fighting BoB... Kinda like putting on boxing gloves for the first time for a bout with Mike Tyson. Pity the fool
Snodgey2004 Mega Modal M0nkeys	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:31:00 - [118] Originally by: Isonkon Serikain WEll, Snod, the answer to your question is simple... ASCN got owned because they learned all this really profound, arcane tactical stuff while fighting BoB... Kinda like putting on boxing gloves for the first time for a bout with Mike Tyson. I like your sig btw , reminds me of Max Payne for some reason you just don't look constipated enough though
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:32:00 - [119] I'd rather take advice on how to win by someone who have won.
Portios Smith Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:47:00 - [120] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin I'd rather take advice on how to win by someone who have won. Oh thats easy, just cheat I want the truth You can't handle the truth - Ductoris
Harum Skarum Minmatar Committee for Subversive Decoration	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:49:00 - [121] Originally by: hybridundertaker Originally by: Noreen I'm going to tell you what we learned first hand in ASCN after fighting BoB for months, we were nicknamed "hobbits", but we managed to keep a pvp force at bay, these are our findings. i thought the war lasted rathger week or 2 ... Is it a virtue to manage to keep pvp forces ''at bay''? I had a feeling gunships are made to be undocked, im a noob so correct me if im wrong The Pendulum. 2006.09.28 Molle victory post 2007.01.05 What alliance lasted longer versus BoB? FA?
furlock Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.19 23:24:00 - [122] interesting post noreen
Ztang Canary Amarr McDuff Industries	Posted - 2007.02.20 01:02:00 - [123] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions. The OP is conveying points derived from the ascn/bob war..thoughts gathered in retrospect. These were things we experienced as the war unfolded... Our downfall was being human...thank god we are not arrogant oracles like yourself. Arrogance is often accompanied by ignorance tho...seems to fit in this case. Ztang Canary *********************** In limbo, awaiting the day when Eve can be played on truly equal terms. The day when every player is equal to CCP, and wins/losses arent determined by lag and
Ceratin ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.20 05:44:00 - [124] Originally by: Noreen Rabble rabble rabble... Instead of all that, hows about we'll just win? ------------ All hail! Leader of the pod brigade..
pershphanie The Ancient Race	Posted - 2007.02.20 06:48:00 - [125] Originally by: Ztang Canary Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions. The OP is conveying points derived from the ascn/bob war..thoughts gathered in retrospect. These were things we experienced as the war unfolded... Our downfall was being human...thank god we are not arrogant oracles like yourself. Arrogance is often accompanied by ignorance tho...seems to fit in this case. Well at least your arguement is based on the ingame facts and not personal attacks. That wont help you or make you more right you know.. You claim that the op listed things that he would have done in retrospect. ok. well lets take a closer look. "1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums." How is that "inretrospect"? ASCN tried that. It didnt help them. "5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them." Don't remember ASCN attacking fountain? Don't remember their gangs around delve? Tried that too. Didn't help them. " 1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time." Don't remember bob taking out a system in feith while killing off stk's dreads in fountain? In retrospect my ass. This is just the same old bull**** that has been tried over and over again. Go ahead, keep calling me names. See if that changes the outcome.
Cockroach Amarr Kinetic Vector Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:35:00 - [126] Originally by: Noreen 3) snip Please do not discuss this on the forums. --Elmo Pug . I'm sorry but I would like to know just what #3 was all about. I just heard a rumour that it was that Bob knew where all the server nodes are and could attempt to lag or crash nodes etc.....I certainly hope this isnt true after the recent alegations of dev help within Bob (as far as i understand that would be the only way they could know this) and would ask for clarification or denial from CCP that this isnt the case or a link to a thread or statement about it. I certainly do not want to hear or start rumour mongering by asking this; and i am sure CCP would want to make sure that we all know this isnt the case and that we as players of eve know that CCP are trying their best to make Eve as fair as is possible in game. A good post by Noreen nonetheless
Ben Hump Minmatar The Kru	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:42:00 - [127] Edited by: Ben Hump on 20/02/2007 09:39:12 Originally by: Noreen 1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums. hahahahahahahahahahahaahahaaahhaahahhahahahah ohh really? May contain traces of irony, period and enter do not belong on my keyboard "Yes Mister Tristan"
Lyer THE BLUE FLAG	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:46:00 - [128] Originally by: Cockroach Originally by: Noreen 3) snip Please do not discuss this on the forums. --Elmo Pug . I'm sorry but I would like to know just what #3 was all about. I just heard a rumour that it was that Bob knew where all the server nodes are and could attempt to lag or crash nodes etc.....I certainly hope this isnt true after the recent alegations of dev help within Bob (as far as i understand that would be the only way they could know this) and would ask for clarification or denial from CCP that this isnt the case or a link to a thread or statement about it. I certainly do not want to hear or start rumour mongering by asking this; and i am sure CCP would want to make sure that we all know this isnt the case and that we as players of eve know that CCP are trying their best to make Eve as fair as is possible in game. A good post by Noreen nonetheless Did you make this up on the spot or did it take all day to compile?
Cockroach Amarr Kinetic Vector Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.20 10:16:00 - [129] Originally by: Lyer [ Did you make this up on the spot or did it take all day to compile? Actually the question was already raised on our own forums Lyer, i thought it appropriate to ask the question here for clarification and appologize if, as i said in my previous post, that you have mistaken it for rumour mongering. Im sure Bob has its spies in our own forums, as was said above, perhaps you should ask them to confirm it for you. But at least i can ask the question with my main char and tbh was expecting a retorical answer from a 2 month old char like yourself in a 1 man corp which screams at me and everyone else here alt.
Lyer THE BLUE FLAG	Posted - 2007.02.20 11:41:00 - [130] Edited by: Lyer on 20/02/2007 11:38:23 Originally by: Cockroach Originally by: Lyer [ Did you make this up on the spot or did it take all day to compile? Actually the question was already raised on our own forums Lyer, i thought it appropriate to ask the question here for clarification and appologize if, as i said in my previous post, that you have mistaken it for rumour mongering. Im sure Bob has its spies in our own forums, as was said above, perhaps you should ask them to confirm it for you. But at least i can ask the question with my main char and tbh was expecting a retorical answer from a 2 month old char like yourself in a 1 man corp which screams at me and everyone else here alt. A mature answer to a flippant comment from myself. Do I know you as you seem to refer to OUR forums, I dont think so. As for being an Alt - sure this is one of a number of accounts I have and certainly older than 2 months. Your'll find thats the corp age I set up. This way I answer to me and only me and get to say what I think. My remarks run no risk of tarring other people. It complies to forum rules and doesnt change what I think about certain aspects, It just allows me to express my opionins in a more liberated way. Its very common, you should really try it. But enough of the deflection from your statement.
NeXxT	Posted - 2007.02.20 12:23:00 - [131] /signed _____________________________________________
Mariko San Saints Surrounded	Posted - 2007.02.20 12:30:00 - [132] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Ztang Canary Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Minikrimi Extreme But for those who dismiss someone because their alliance lost a major war, there is something that was repeated over and over again at my university: We learn the most, when we fail. Learn from the mistakes of others, because it is much cheaper than failing yourself. I'm dismissing the OP because his alliance failed after "fighting" a war based on these same assumptions. The OP is conveying points derived from the ascn/bob war..thoughts gathered in retrospect. These were things we experienced as the war unfolded... Our downfall was being human...thank god we are not arrogant oracles like yourself. Arrogance is often accompanied by ignorance tho...seems to fit in this case. Well at least your arguement is based on the ingame facts and not personal attacks. That wont help you or make you more right you know.. You claim that the op listed things that he would have done in retrospect. ok. well lets take a closer look. "1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums." How is that "in retrospect"? ASCN tried that. It didnt help them. ASCN were just very bad at forum trolling, goons on the other hand are at least as proficient as bob at forum whoring and drafting internet forum smackdowns. Originally by: pershphanie "5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them." Don't remember ASCN attacking fountain? Don't remember their gangs around delve? Tried that too. Didn't help them. ASCN never had the numbers to do both properly, at its peak in the war it had what, 300 ppl online (remember a big chunk of the A&A channel was AXE) of whom about half were willing/able to fight. This was not enough to try to hold bob and attack the pets successfully. Originally by: pershphanie "1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time." Don't remember bob taking out a system in feith while killing off stk's dreads in fountain? What protection did STK's dreads have? next to none and a dread in seige mode at a hostile POS lagged to hell is just a big fat sitting duck unless it has a big support fleet with it. And by the time this happened ASCN was already a dead man walking.
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.20 12:55:00 - [133] A very informative post by the op, thanks for taking the time and trouble of typing it, my experience so far tends to agree with everything you have stated,
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.20 13:54:00 - [134] Anyone who thinks the OP of this thread has displayed any kind of profound insight will be better of just mining veld, it's to little, to late for you. -- .sig apathy ftw
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.20 13:57:00 - [135] Not to be a ****, but why would RA and crew be looking for war advice from ASCN? ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.20 14:55:00 - [136] Hindsight probably. Knowing what to do is one thing, persuading an alliance to do it is the real battle. Luckily GS directors have experience herding cats.
Admiral Feelgood Even-Flow	Posted - 2007.02.20 15:46:00 - [137] Originally by: Aceonfire Edited by: Aceonfire on 20/02/2007 11:26:36 Edited by: Aceonfire on 20/02/2007 11:24:58 Originally by: Noreen Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE LOL, just LOL Goons play one part in this conflict. Causing lag. If the goons did not have the assistance of 5+ other alliances, they would have been mining veldspar in empire days after they decided to attack us. Goons, in general, lack skillpoints, pvp experience, and the isk to even consider attacking a 100 man noob corp in empire, much less LV. Jeez, bitter much?
Ricco Lonestar Minmatar Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.20 20:08:00 - [138] Enuf said. Turn around while you still can.
celous Caldari Dark Skyes	Posted - 2007.02.20 20:40:00 - [139] Originally by: Admiral Feelgood Originally by: Aceonfire Edited by: Aceonfire on 20/02/2007 11:26:36 Edited by: Aceonfire on 20/02/2007 11:24:58 Originally by: Noreen Goons are now imo the strongest force in EvE LOL, just LOL Goons play one part in this conflict. Causing lag. If the goons did not have the assistance of 5+ other alliances, they would have been mining veldspar in empire days after they decided to attack us. Goons, in general, lack skillpoints, pvp experience, and the isk to even consider attacking a 100 man noob corp in empire, much less LV. Jeez, bitter much? he right tho
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.20 21:36:00 - [140] Originally by: Portios Smith Originally by: Tobias Sjodin I'd rather take advice on how to win by someone who have won. Oh thats easy, just cheat So everyone who wins cheats in your book. ... right.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.20 22:30:00 - [141] Originally by: pershphanie Well at least your arguement is based on the ingame facts and not personal attacks. That wont help you or make you more right you know.. That applies both ways I think. Originally by: pershphanie You claim that the op listed things that he would have done in retrospect. ok. well lets take a closer look. "1) Your alliance reads the crap on EvE-O, get off your high horse and post some propoganda on here, Fill these forums with YOUR posts, not BoB's. You want to win in EvE, start on the Forums." How is that "inretrospect"? ASCN tried that. It didnt help them. There some reason why BoB isn't doing it now then? I'm noticing a lack of BoB posts lately. Originally by: pershphanie "5) BoB and BoB slaves have a symbian relationship, 1 cannot live without the other. Divide them." Don't remember ASCN attacking fountain? Don't remember their gangs around delve? Tried that too. Didn't help them. Didn't D2 take a station there while BoB was busy? Originally by: pershphanie "1) BoB cannot HOLD more then 1 system at a time." Don't remember bob taking out a system in feith while killing off stk's dreads in fountain? So what you are saying is that if BoB had a fleet of 200 at one system and 3 different alliances with a gang of 200+ a piece attacked systems that are each 20+ jumps from each other, BoB could fend them all off at the same time? Don't forget what happened to that LV cap shipyard system. Those kind of numbers are not impossible. For the record, this isn't a poke at BoB. I just like pointing out how people ignore other facts.
Founder Meo Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.20 22:43:00 - [142] Id just like to point out that for all the accusation at BoB they are some very fine PVPers yes ganking and 5v1 odds will help kill them but the satilite nations eg the bob pets will act as a front for bob as there currently doing. i'm not to sure about LV's current status but with everybody seeming to take out LV before they move onto bob it cant be good. As for Bob fearing Goon i dont honestly think they fear them, bob are more the type to go down fighting with a smile on there faces and enjoying every minute of it. yes they'll feel regret but lets look at there history .... they go out and fight the biggest alliances they can for the challange. They enjoy it ! ----------------------------------------------- -Who would bring a charge against God's elect ? it is God who justifies- Romans 8:33
WallStArb CyberDyne R-D	Posted - 2007.02.20 23:29:00 - [143] As long as both sides are losing dreads and carriers... GL to everyone involved, and feel free to contact us for bulk purchases of dreads and carriers! Some must die so others may become infinite
Admiral Feelgood Even-Flow	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:14:00 - [144] Edited by: Admiral Feelgood on 21/02/2007 00:10:33 Originally by: celous Originally by: Admiral Feelgood Jeez, bitter much? he right tho I disagree, the goons are a force to be reckoned with on their own and saying that their only role is to cause lag is absurd. Perhaps 1v1 LV could beat them but who cares? Same could have been said at the start of LV's anti-RA coalition. GoonSwarm has been around for a year+ and some of it's members have been playing for 2-3 years now, maybe not the majority but yeah. Putting them down like that is just him being angry at losing space, which is all right cause nobody likes to. Still though that doesn't make that true. Sure the average goon in space doesn't have as many skill points to match the average pilot in another alliance, but they've got all the experience and more in terms of hours fighting. I'm not saying they're better/all that great to begin with but is statements were patently untrue and mostly unfounded.
Scorched Evil The Silent Rage FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.21 04:43:00 - [145] I have alot of respect for GoonSwarm regardless of if they started with a reputation as being nubs. Plain and simple they did what everyone said they could never do, and for that I give props. Guess its the end of Band of Developers... Ready for the RAGE? Join The Silent Rage Today! Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

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