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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
The Judge
The Eternal Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:09:00 -
[571]
Originally by: Ztrain Edited by: Ztrain on 24/02/2007 22:59:17 Like what was mentioned in the haves or have nots. If it is now going to be impossible to aquire in game content for newer players they why bother continuing to play the game? I was seriously considering dropping this game like a bad habbit to pick up one of the other more well designed MMOs. Not space based but still. You can start new and through time and effort aquire the best in the game. It appears now that CCP is going back down the road of new players being locked out of aquireing content. If that's the case it's time too see if CCP will be locked out of the pocketbook.
Didn't dev blog say this was something about restoring trust from the population due to dev cheating? Okay well we got caught cheating so now we're going to hurt the players because you caught us. Yeah way to go for restoring trust.
Z
If you think you need a t2 bpo just to play the game then your playing the wrong game to begin with. Many industrial players have managed without t2 bpo's so why can't you as well.
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Ztrain
GIT-R-DUN Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:14:00 -
[572]
Edited by: Ztrain on 24/02/2007 23:12:21
Originally by: The Judge
Originally by: Ztrain Edited by: Ztrain on 24/02/2007 22:59:17 Like what was mentioned in the haves or have nots. If it is now going to be impossible to aquire in game content for newer players they why bother continuing to play the game? I was seriously considering dropping this game like a bad habbit to pick up one of the other more well designed MMOs. Not space based but still. You can start new and through time and effort aquire the best in the game. It appears now that CCP is going back down the road of new players being locked out of aquireing content. If that's the case it's time too see if CCP will be locked out of the pocketbook.
Didn't dev blog say this was something about restoring trust from the population due to dev cheating? Okay well we got caught cheating so now we're going to hurt the players because you caught us. Yeah way to go for restoring trust.
Z
If you think you need a t2 bpo just to play the game then your playing the wrong game to begin with. Many industrial players have managed without t2 bpo's so why can't you as well.
You can manage. But the game will now lock players out of content. For example a new player starts playing today. How would a new player train up and get in to T2 production? It would not be possible. Even with Invention in it's current state you can no obtain a T2 BPO through in game methods. Other then grind for YEARS to get enough cash to be able to purchase one IF any current owners decide to sell one.
I 100% agree with the solution of NPC sellable BPOs purchased with RP. It allows for people to enter the game and get in to T2 production. Might months but definitly not years.
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The Judge
The Eternal Knights
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:18:00 -
[573]
A new player will never pilot a titan either, should they be made more accessable as well ?. There are just some things in this game that are supposed to be rare and some people can accept that, shame that alot more cannot.
You yourself have said you could buy one if you did some grinding to get the isk to buy a bpo, what stops you from doing that. Other players have had to pay for their t2 bpo's so again why can't you. Sounds to me like you just want an i-win button.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.24 23:56:00 -
[574]
Nice Feedback chaps....Thanks for reading other posts.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.25 00:06:00 -
[575]
lol I have seen a lot of players demanding the removal of the orginal T2 bpo. There funny the orginal are the only way to keep the price down.T2 production requires Moon mined material,the T2 bpo provide a constant demand for them.As for the price I have seen a lot of my product bought by one person and then put right back on the market at a inflated price. I saw post on invention having a chance of a T2 bpo this is a good idea. The idea that only the rich can get into invention this is false as anyone can get into exploration. When I "won" my first T2 bpo it was after a lot of research missions.During that time the impression was you had to run the research missions or your progress really did stop.Most of the missions were a lot different then moving a small cube or getting Trit. Some remember science grads costing millions, this was at a time when millions really were hard to get. Maybe it should have stopped as it would have just rewarded the players who did take the time to do the research. Invention should not just be a empire activity. The edges of human endeavor have often been the driving force of Invention. If ccp really wanted to see T2 prices drop decrease the production time on the bpos and make the ships easier to invent. more units sitting on the market will make the next batch going on the market be at a lower cost.
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2007.02.25 00:54:00 -
[576]
To those who think newer players can't get T2 BPOs once they're all handed out, that's just wrong. They can buy them, like all those who didn't win them but instead worked their tails off making isk other ways. T2 BPOs change hands all the time, though only a small percentage of them are being bought and sold at any given moment.
The key is to make invention or other means of T2 involvement fun, interesting, and rewarding. There has to be a certain amount of grind, true, but in the end it should be worth it. Currently, invention is not worth the effort unless you already have money and time to burn.
I used to think it made sense to release T2 BPOs to the general market in some form two years after the last of that BPO type was given out via the lottery. However, now that we have the reseeding that started in Revelations, it kind of blows that idea out the window. Also, once T2 BPOs become commonplace, what are T1 items for other than the very new players and to build T2 items? I think whatever happens, we need to keep in mind that T1 should still be desirable and profitable, or else how do production players work their way up the tech ladder? Mining and grinding missions aren't very fun for people who really like being builders, though they are OK as a means to build things.
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Kintai mangi
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Posted - 2007.02.25 02:42:00 -
[577]
So long as they make it more profitable than T1 thats fine. If it takes me 3 times as long to make 3 times the money I'm not really going to bother with T2 invention/production. Thats what they seem to be misunderstanding. Ooh I made 3m isk each and it only took me days on end of scrounging up parts, datacores, interfaces etc etc
Or I can but a T1 blueprint and churn out 3m isk worth of profit by doing an "easy" grind, instead of a "hard" grind. I get that they want everyone in the game to be in some BoB sized megacorp in 0.0. Fact is the majority of the players are not interested in that. Invention would be fine if they upped the supply of datacores a bit (not driving down the price, thats dumb since there is a limited supply) and allowed a higher number of runs. Not hundreds, but surely more than the pittance thats currently being produced.
And dont even get me started on the nerfing of solo mission running that they are talking about.
And introduce T3 or named T2.
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Vigor Ekem
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Posted - 2007.02.25 04:56:00 -
[578]
Edited by: Vigor Ekem on 25/02/2007 04:54:13 I like the invention idea in concept.. Like many have said it does need alot of tweaking. PLEASE CCP ATLEAST PUT THE SKILLS ON THE MARKET..
ps. drones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rodrom Caldera
Gallente BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.25 08:08:00 -
[579]
Wel in case of most ppl its seems only a few have a good insight in economic stabilisation. CCP i run this trough you back in the beta times. but first a statement
Invention was releast to support the T2 production in game. As ppl where doing monopoly on sertain bpos prices whent up on mods to insane ammounts. invention would balance the game. due to the nature of man and quick sells.
now what wil happen if the Bpo lottery ends? on a finaincial plane its a time bom. Ether Prices Wil Keep on rising as the production cost of invention is very high. making T2 more unavailible to the average Player. keep in mind that at this time A t2 fitted Bs wil cost you around 250 mil isk think 425railgun megatron/ t2 raven /t2 tempest for armer ist sadly enouph cheaper.
having a endless supply of T2 Bpos is not good ether. this wil affect the game in a way that every loot dropped T1 gear wil become worthless and obsolete. makes alot of unused resources that the core game provide.
Solution:
Having A fixed ammount Of Bpos Availible on the lottery. This ammount is based on the player base of that moment in time. availibily should be very reducedm so Invention haves a chance to trive. Also invention should result in a sustainable ammount in runs. Obviously 17 runs of some items wil make it that invention cost wil far excede Value of the builded item. A good way to have a counter is to make all invention a base of ME 0 pe 0,
In i way i can keep talking herem but like everything els time is only relativem and waisting it would be a shame -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* I'm writing a evolving Epic story with side story's to support the whole.
Story |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.25 08:30:00 -
[580]
Okay well at least this is a step. The T2 lottery has long been plagued by rumours of favoritism and of course this was found to be true at least on the part of one dev recently.
I've tried invention a little. It is kinda hard :(.
The main difficulty is in the availability of skill books to perform the invention. (Same is true for gas cloud skill books :( )
I would suggest seeding these books on the open market. It would open up invention to a lot more folks.
Datacores cost to much as well :(. Someone with a level 3 agent should be able to afford a datacore each day. They'll definitely have to become more common if invention is to take over the t2 BPO role. This could be by lesser costs for them, or needing fewer to before invention.
The other thing, which name escapes me at the moment. They are hard to get the BPCs for, they last forever, but they are very hard to make and very hard to find the components to make them. It might do well to introduce a way to get these that is easier than current methods, perhaps making these new ones not last as long so as to reward those with them.
There needs to be improvement on the quality of the BPCs and on the success rate on invention. Without improvements in those areas as well, there will never come a time it could replace teh BPOs.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and |
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Frindarg
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Posted - 2007.02.25 08:31:00 -
[581]
Edited by: Frindarg on 25/02/2007 08:30:32 This are my expiriences with Invention and T2 BPOs ... I thryed Minmatar HAC Invention but the 1 run BPC I got costed me more then a finished HAC ( I calculating only the materials gone in 2 thrys) I also stop producing a T2 BPO because the profit of the T2 was much less then selling some of the T1 Products I need to produce this T2 item. So much about a T2 BPO is allways great.
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Opiette
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.25 11:17:00 -
[582]
Few other toughts.
T2 atm takes lots of work. You need to build tech 1, components , RAM tools, acquire mins and then build the thing. Then move the product to the market. then update the prices on the market all the time.
ok asuming tech 2 prints get pulled out ppl need to NEW TECH 2 PRROCESS (start) get tech 1 bpc's (very little copy labs) get data interfaces (only once) get datatacores (very slow and very work intensive atm) move all stuff to lab spot for invention get bpc - move bpc to build spot build tech 1 items / ships build components (very slow to build) build ram tools (very slow to build) in between haul the advanced materials from market to build spot (only tech 2 prints gurantee there is decent need for advanced materials) now build the tech 2 item / items seed them to market
keep the prices in check. ( if everyone is building the same item expect insane price competition and isk gain dropped down to minimal in no time)
go to back to start
I just want to elighten the process that ppl have to go thru if they want to do all the task required by them selves. Naturally every phase they dont cuts down their profits. so eventually we might end up with even bigger price / supply issues of tech 2 items.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.25 11:36:00 -
[583]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/02/2007 11:36:25 CCP wants to do something about the T2 lottery - this is great news. :-) But like many others, I think that tech 2 BPOs have to go.
My suggestions would be: - Eliminate T2 BPOs Convert them into BPCs with 1/2 year worth of runs and refund the owner with some ISK (based on the database prices x some multiplier) and/or 1/2 year worth of RPs.
- Convert the lottery into an alternative way of obtaining T2 BPCs Well, actually we have research agents and they do research. Most sensible way to use what's already there and to give it a new yet familiar face. Name it 'Research Breaktrough'. for example. At a certain rate, research agents would be successful in researching a T2 BPC with a certain number of runs, for example enough to produce 1/4 year nonstop. Yes, it would be sort of a lottery again, but with higher frequency handout, no limitation due to BPC instead of BPOs and invention as an alternative, it would be pretty different. Players would have two options: Either depend on luck and your research agent or take things in your own hands and research for yourself (invention). Actually I'd call it research, too. Named/modified equipment or T3 would be real invention. T2 is pretty old. That's more like research imho, because you don't invent something new. It would also add a tactical component into research. Keep your pile of RPs and hope for a BPC handout? Reduce your amount of RPs by 'buying' datacores, so you don't lose too many RPs when you get lucky, yet reducing your chances. Don't rely on luck but instead take all your RPs and 'produce' T2 BPCs yourself.
- Do a research agent mission overhaul. No, not combat missions, but more different missions and a penalty for not doing them. This makes RP farming harder and induces an effort vs. reward relation.
Now players would have two ways of getting tech 2 BPCs. The classic research agent way, accumulating RPs and hoping for a breakthrough, and a 'do it yourself' way by researching (inventing) on your own, which even works without having a research agent in the first place.
___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_ |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.25 11:37:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/02/2007 11:35:51 I would also like to comment on some points:
- "Without BPOs less popular modules won't be produced anymore." This is not a problem with the concept of invention, it's a problem of game balance. The fact that some modules would be even less produced just shows that many modules
aren't balanced. Make all modules interesting and useful and this effect is gone. Don't fight symptoms, fight causes.
- Removing T2 BPOs will drive prices even higher than they are now. That's totally dependant on the invention variables. Make the invention process easier, increase drops and component availability and eventually
prices will be where you want them to be. It's all a matter of time investment and effort. The main advantage of invention is - it's controllable. T2 lotter and it's monopolies aren't. Invention is the better system and concept overall.
- Without T2 BPOs there will be no constant supply of T2 items. T2 BPOs are needed for that. No, not really. Just keep some kind of lottery, but with BPCs. Those could have runs for.. dunno 1/4 year? That would be perfectly controllable. Without the 'infinite' factor, it isn't prone to negative effects
like cartels or monopolies. It makes sure the supply is there and it can't get out of hand. And if you don't want to depend on luck/your agent, use invention and do it yourself.
- 'Dice throws' are bad. There is too much luck involved. Well, I would say it's just the high investment and chances still not where they should be. I don't get the problem people have with chances and random stuff. Probably it's the fact that it can't be controlled or calculated. Ah well, I don't like powergaming or min-maxing, but apart from that life is full of chances and pretty much nothing is for sure, except death. If EVE is meant to be somewhat realistic, keep chances. Of course it is totally valid to complain about chances being too small or investment being too high regarding the chances. But that's something different.
Ok, that's about it. My 2 cents. Sorry it got a bit lenghty.
___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_ |
Louis DelaBlanche
Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.25 12:06:00 -
[585]
Im not sure how if im for or against these proposed changes.
If, as is partly implied, the removal of the T2 lottery & further BPO releases is to do with regaining the trust of the community; it wont work. Theres much more ppl have issues with then just t20 giving away a some of 2nd rate BPOs. Dev characters have been reported to be seen "scouting" & fiddling with pos'. Should you get rid of those too in an effort to regain trust?
Accelerating the T2 transition from lottery to invention is also a bad idea imo. PPl have been whining that the T2 lottery is unfair long before Invention, & they still whine just as loud now. Speeding up what is an incomplete system just to shut them up, while an attractive prospect , is a bad idea. & personally i can think of no other reason for accelerating the process other then this. Take your time over it, its not ready.
As to what needs to change, I think either that more (ie. all, including ORE stuff) T2 items need to be inventable; or high volume consumption items BPOs (like T2 ammo) should continue to be seeded, perhaps even at an accelerated rate in some cases. & as well something needs to be done about low profit T2 items.
As some have already pointed out, alot of T2 items are not worth going through the costs of invention & production to make. These will I think, also need to have BPOs to continue seeding or, in some cases, have their stats improved to make them worth buying in the first place.
& finally, no I havent tried invention yet, i cant afford it. I have R&D agents doing their thing, but atm im still waiting on that hopefull T2 BPO (so far i only been offered utter crap ones). & unlike many complainers, I dont mind waiting. Its not like waiting for that mail in my inbox is the only thing I do while playing. I have no problems with the system as it is, but if it has to change, for goodness sake dont rush into it.
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killerco
Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.25 12:54:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Oveur
Current Tech 2 BPOs will certainly not be removed. There are more than 10.000 out there, far from all of them being something really sought after.
Glad too hear that the t2 bpo's will not be removed.
Originally by: Oveur However, it's certainly worth investigating turning them into very high run BPCs like was done with the old Infinite copies
pls not
Don't be a great man just be a man |
Opiette
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.25 13:16:00 -
[587]
Edited by: Opiette on 25/02/2007 13:14:36
Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Im not sure how if im for or against these proposed changes.
If, as is partly implied, the removal of the T2 lottery & further BPO releases is to do with regaining the trust of the community; it wont work. Theres much more ppl have issues with then just t20 giving away a some of 2nd rate BPOs. Dev characters have been reported to be seen "scouting" & fiddling with pos'. Should you get rid of those too in an effort to regain trust?
Yeah like first there are problems wich cause lack of trust. Then the solution to the lack of trust is to scam us even harder by converting tech 2 blueprint orginals to limited run copies that is how I feel it is.
Like first there is mistake and now you want to accelerate the mistake even further.
I feel that small ivention chainges are just what fixes the tech 2 problems. All items that ppl want and are willing to buy have demand. Thus ppl will want to produce those things. -> ppl go and do invention prices drop due to competition.
That is how it allready works atm.
nanofiber 2's covert ops cloaks warpdisrupter 2's, warpscrambler 2's 425mm rails 1400 mm howies
etc. etc.
1 Just remove the artificial limitations like No way to invent hulk Bpc's 2 Increase the datacore purchase amounts 3 Increase the amount of copy labs even ? 4 Boost the run amounts of invented bpc's = make it easier
btw. I think the player base still lubs you .. and the trust thing is pushing it bit too hard when it comes to this tech 2 thing that is going on.
What I would worry more are accusations like GM*s scouting for posses before assault.
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Genericforumalt
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.02.25 14:08:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Genericforumalt on 25/02/2007 14:05:49
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/02/2007 11:52:37
- Eliminate T2 BPOs
BPOs would stay a permanent burden on the new invention system.
Do you honestly think that invention, even when correctly fixed could ever, completely on it's own, supply a playerbase as big as EVE's?
No, it couldn't. Nor could T2 BPOS either, there is more than enough room for inventors to make profit.
And there will be no more lotterys so I wouldn't bother suggesting a BPC one.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.25 14:50:00 -
[589]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/02/2007 14:50:00 Ah well, I liked being able to use new T2 items in combat.
*shrugs*
A minimum of 3* for non-stable base items. Minimum. And less people making any profit from them, as well as required over-seeding for market access and even further hub syndrome.
Further, thanks for soon-to-be-useless RP's and the skills I wasted training for them.
//Maya |
Rabiator
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:36:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata This whole thing is stupid, period.
1) 90% of those posting in here are new players that can't get into the t2 industry, and if you listen to the new players and blow off the old players you'll be making a big mistake.
Blowing off the new players by taking away any chance of getting into the t2 industry will be an equally big mistake. I'm one of those new players, and while I'm willing to take my time to get there, I won't put up with being locked out forever. There have been a lot of reasonable compromises suggested in this thread, most of them including hard but doable ways of getting new BPOs. This will increase competition and reduce the veterans' profit margins, but it is necessary to give younger pilots a perspective. I hope CCP understands that, even if you don't.
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:53:00 -
[591]
Originally by: Genericforumalt Edited by: Genericforumalt on 25/02/2007 14:05:49
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 25/02/2007 11:52:37
- Eliminate T2 BPOs
BPOs would stay a permanent burden on the new invention system.
Do you honestly think that invention, even when correctly fixed could ever, completely on it's own, supply a playerbase as big as EVE's?
No, it couldn't. Nor could T2 BPOS either, there is more than enough room for inventors to make profit.
And there will be no more lotterys so I wouldn't bother suggesting a BPC one.
if its fixed then yes there are so many variables to tinker with like datacore cost only 1/10 or the number of runs on the output BPC is the same as input
or or or
you get the trend
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] Convert T2 BPO¦s into copies ASAP
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Mothmar Friedsquid
Gallente Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.25 17:55:00 -
[592]
This is the most unbelievably stupid thing I have ever heard. I'm sure this has been said before, earlier in this thread, but honestly I can't believe you're going to just NOT HAND OUT any more T2 BPO's. If anything, put them on the open market in a slow, trickled fashion. If this is implemented I will quit. Pure and simple. Giving some players unfettered access to BPO's and then not making it even over time is patently unfair. Keep the lottery going, seed it regularly, and stuff it. Automate the seeding. Make it so that BPO's come into play regularly. The whole T2 fiasco is just that. I couldn't be more ****ed off at how dumb the whole idea is, and that has a lot to do with my spending of the last two months training up a research-oriented character to participate in the lottery since the last seeding.
This is a horrible solution to a big problem you created.
Sometimes, video games are more important than sleep. Unfortunately, this is a bad sign. |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.25 18:03:00 -
[593]
I don't normally post in topics on eve o forums, but this is quite important to the future of Eve.
I would like to see agents of all kind appearing in player owned/built outposts. Why limit the npc's to empire stations, and force people to travel 50+ jumps to partake in this area?
Maybe making alliance "Headhunt" npc agents namely research agents. To some players it's only pointed out after a couple of months, after doing hauling or combat missions anyway. I hope this can be addressed.
As for changing T2 bpo's into limited run bpcs.... Harsh. Yes T2 items are expensive, they're meant to be. They're also meant to be rare luxury items as well.
Aside from PvPing on the market (which is just as cut throat as fleet battles), seeing fleet battles with fewer and fewer t2 items isn't an advancement.
Is the Eve Universe going through a technology black hole? Reverse engineering a bpo for and advanced bpc seems like a great idea. One just has to get the bpo to their nearest agent, like I said, could be 30+ jumps away. Annoying, dangerous and time consuming.
I'm sure people will remember the mantra "adapt to survive". Get ready to adapt people. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers! |
ViciousCycle
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Posted - 2007.02.25 18:28:00 -
[594]
possible solution to the 'nerf BPOs' issues would be to have T2 BPOs expire [have fatal accident while being used] based on their age. The longer a T2 BPO has been ingame [database tracks 'em correct?] the higher the probability that they will suffer failure on their next use.
{Check my character's age to get an idea of my capabilities. :-) }
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Mortania
Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.25 18:42:00 -
[595]
Edited by: Mortania on 25/02/2007 18:39:21 I'm going to try and post this once again, but I doubt it will sink in.
T2 Prices are not artificially high because of T2 BPO Cartels, they are high because the demand outstrips the ability of the existing T2 BPOs to supply.
A concrete example:
One our members had the Ishtar BPO. It would build approx. 1 ship a day. That's 365 ships for a year for 1 BPO. With the existing 20 BPOs for this ship that is only 7300 Ishtars for an entire year of production. With 130,000+ people playing the game, that's over 17 players for each Ishtar that can be produced in a year.
Removing T2 BPOs will NOT solve this problem. It will exacerbate it. For T2 prices to become lower, there needs to be a massive increase in supply of the desired T2 goods.
Getting invention so that it competes directly with T2 BPOs would go a long way to solving this without cheapening the satisfaction of earning the use of building T2 stuff, either through a continuing lottery or through invention.
A lottery of BPCs for less RPs that happens much more frequently for those people who like to shoot things to get their rewards, and invention for those people who like to spend all day doing production things.
Removing T2 BPOs is not necessary and won't solve your fundamental problem and will **** off many of your older players: the people who have shown that they are willing to spend more than 7 months playing that game (avg stay in EVE), the people who made EVE what it is today so that the masses of disenfranchised MMO players could come here and complain about those that played from the beginning.
I have had research going from when it started and have never won a T2 BPO, while there are people with less than a year played who have won something. The lottery is a chance for noob or elder, it favors only slightly those with more RPs.
Edit: no, we don't have the Ishtar print anymore. ---
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:18:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Mortania I have had research going from when it started and have never won a T2 BPO, while there are people with less than a year played who have won something. The lottery is a chance for noob or elder, it favors only slightly those with more RPs.
And if the BPO lottery would be removed they would also have to remove (or betetr: exchange) the exiting BPOs to keep the playing field lvl.
Otherwise BPO holder will always for ver and ever have an unreachable advantage (at least with similar effort).
You do not need BPOs to keep up with the demand, if invention is effective enough (which right now, it isn't) it can do the same thing...better, because it can react on demand changes far quicker.
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:27:00 -
[597]
Mortania now imagine a workin invention system ..
if its worth 200 people will now invent and produce Ishtars
invention is the only way to remove supply bottlenecks
or dish out 10x the bpo¦s with a rigged lottery
i¦ll take invention anytime _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] Convert T2 BPO¦s into copies ASAP
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Talidorn
Pandoras Mining Covanant
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:28:00 -
[598]
I've been in game for a long time.
I think making invention more accessible would be great. I've had T2 BPO lottery wins. I think that to really become a regular T2 producer I would need a lower cost of entry into the invention arena.
May I suggest an idea to help this? We have BPOs and BPCs... Why not create BPIs (BluePrint from Invention)? A BPI will have some benefits of BPOs: limited amount of possible research to improve them, limited number of BPCs to make, etc. How these new BPIs are earned would be up to CCP &/or the community to determine. I might suggest a few possible rules. BPIs are earned by an investment of RP/data cores/etc. Perhaps a BPI is a conversion of a BPO at near ideal ME (this encourages Research on bpos). I think that there are a lot of possibilities that will allow the community to regain "trust" and reward those that are willing to work for their fortunes.
I personally don't care about the fiasco with the recent "Trust" issues. I'm too busy playing my game to worry about the petty issues a number of the community seem to have with Devs and that one alliance. Let's be real... there is no such thing as balance. If we make the game balanced it becomes boring. If you want something work for it. My idea of BPIs will allow for people to work for a good source of income.
Cheers,
Tali
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Rangar
Gallente The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:30:00 -
[599]
Edited by: Rangar on 25/02/2007 19:28:12
Originally by: Mortania T2 Prices are not artificially high because of T2 BPO Cartels, they are high because the demand outstrips the ability of the existing T2 BPOs to supply.
That is absolute correct. Our corp has some T2 BPOs and while a lot of them are pretty useless, because nobody wants to buy the products even for production costs, some of them are running 24/7 and still cannot fill the orders. Some ships for example need 1 day and 8 hours for one unit!
Originally by: Mortania Removing T2 BPOs will NOT solve this problem. It will exacerbate it. For T2 prices to become lower, there needs to be a massive increase in supply of the desired T2 goods.
Also correct. For some products there are simply not enough BPOs in the game.
Originally by: Mortania Removing T2 BPOs is not necessary and won't solve your fundamental problem and will **** off many of your older players: the people who have shown that they are willing to spend more than 7 months playing that game (avg stay in EVE), the people who made EVE what it is today so that the masses of disenfranchised MMO players could come here and complain about those that played from the beginning.
This is an important point for me. In the past I have always extended my accounts for another year. But this time (yesterday one of them ran out) I choosed 6 months only, because I am not sure, if CCP will make a good decision here. The past shows, that with their focus on PvP (balancing ships they can do really good) their decisions in the "civilian" part of the game often were not very good. Our corp has worked very hard for what we achieved on the T2 market and if they remove the BPOs from the game they will remove me as well. EVE was always different from other MMORPGs, especially in the ability to realize long term goals. If you change the game in direction to a "daily grinding" game, I can go back to one of those fantasy games and kill dragons.
A problem in EVE that should really be addressed is the flood of ISK coming into the game with not enough going out. Lowering the amount of ISK you get from agent missions, bounties and so on would be a good start to solve this problem. And if CCP would increase the costs for empire wars ten times, that would help also . Paying 50 mill ISK for buying 2000 targets is really a joke!
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Tanner Mirabel
Minmatar Universal Exports
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Posted - 2007.02.25 19:57:00 -
[600]
Apart for a very small amount of exceptions the price of T2 goods is not governed by the T2 BPO holder. Yes they make all the profit but the mechanism for the market is driven by the customer and the prices are set by supply and demand. The big problem with items such as HACs is that they were introduced when there was a much smaller player base so as demand has soared with the influx of players the supply has remained the same or even shrunk so prices have gone up. Lets say (using hypothetical figures) there are currently 30 Vagabond BPOs in existence, each BPO makes about 5 ships per week so thats 150 Vagabonds coming onto the market each week. If there are 300 people looking to buy a Vagabond then imagine putting the max amount of isk each of these 300 people are willing to spend in order and the price of the ship will rise until it matches the top 150 with the remaining 150 left whingeing about expensive T2 prices and those evil T2 BPO owners. If all the Vagabond BPO owners got together one day and decided the prices were too high and it was not fair and they all put their ships on the market at 50 mil each do you know what would happen? Within an hour the 150 ships at 50 mil will be sold and the market will have 150 ships back on at the current prices because everyone knows that people will pay 200+mil and the market resellers will make 150 mil each on them (anyone remember Wii sales on e-bay at Christmas). The ONLY way to improve the T2 pricing is to increase the supply as the more competition there is the lower manufacturers will have to sell at to get the sale. Invention was supposed to be helping this because what it introduced was an additional source of items. Again with the reseeding more BPO introduced so more items available so more competition leading to lower prices. I personally think that removing BPOs is a very very bad idea (and yes I do own some). While there are BPOs you have a steady supply of goods onto the market. Invention should be made easy enough that it is viable and profitable to compete with this and the increased supply will drop the prices to more reasonable levels. I also think it would be good if some BPC could be thrown into the lottery for a lower payout of RP, again increasing the supply and allowing more winners. What about low run BPC sometimes dropping in complexes and missions. You blow up that factory building and find it has a 10 run T2 cap recharger print in it for example. Removing the BPOs is removing the baseline supply of goods. To go back to my earlier point, lower supply equals higher prices. While the BPOs are in game and providing a steady supply then it should be easier for CCP to keep a control on things. If the market on something is having problems then drop a few more BPCs into circulation through the lottery or through tweaking loot tables or even seed some more BPO. If you are only running on BPC then you have no guarenteed base supply. What happens when its announced that T2 BS prints can be made? 99.9% of inventors suddenly stop inventing what they have been doing and try to get these prints, now you find yourself paying 300+ mil for your Vag to the few people who are not trying to invent T2BS. How can you have any kind of stable market when it will be governed by fads.
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