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Oveur... do we (the ones without T2 BPOs, ) errr gonna need vasaline?

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Aille Pluthrak Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Annatar The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. It is not on the same level has the combat revamp in SWG. That touched everyone in the game in a major way. Making T2 BPOs into T2 BPCs does not. I kind of hope it does happen just to see the ***** fest on the forums. ---------------------- Boom goes the ship! Squish goes the pilot!
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:51:00 - [62] Edited by: Halafian on 23/02/2007 14:55:05 edit: wrong place
AlleyKat Gallente The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:08:00 - [63] It's gonna be interesting to see how the playerbase reacts to the launch of Tech2 Battleships. With no more lottery, these ships will only be produced through invention - unless I've missed a dev blog / post on this topic... Recruitment Film
Aldirien Rathmore	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Aille Pluthrak I kind of hope it does happen just to see the ***** fest on the forums. Chaos...it's not just theory I say the T2 BPOs came into the game in a "random" fashion and they should leave in the same manner. Attach a "chance of removal" to every T2 BPO that is checked every time it is used. CCP can decide whatever % they'd like to assign and then just let the time-bomb start ticking. The more they are used the more chance they risk of going poof. This is not like other games where you are talking about limited edition items like weapons or armor where a finite amount exists, this is the mold itself. I believe we should look to the film Blade Runner for guidance in this matter... Rachael: "I'm not in the business. I am the business." Leon: "Nothing is worse than having an itch you can never scratch." Eldon Tyrell: "The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long. And you have burned so very very brightly, Roy." --Om Man Ni Pad Me Um-- The wisdom of BLade Runner shall not be questioned!
Traska Gannel	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:34:00 - [65] Here is another idea - probably already suggested. Perhaps the invention process should lead to T2+ or T3 items with slightly better than T2 stats. That leaves folks the option of producing good but not the best T2 items from their BPOs or working through the invention process for items that aren't as efficient to build but in which the final product is somewhat better than the T2 BPO counterpart. The probability of inventing a T2+ item from the invention process could be set to any desired value depending on what would keep players interested and balance the return. This would not devalue existing T2 BPO's but at the same time would make invention attractive and worthwhile since you could then produce better items. (Keep in mind too that there are already many common Tech I named items (not including faction or deadspace variants) that can be considered as better than the Tech II counterparts - usually do to less demanding fitting requirements). So it would not be unreasonable to come up with T2+ variants of existing T2 items.
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:50:00 - [66] Originally by: Lori Carlyle Another chance based thing. You are going to FIX invention before you do this arn't you CCP ? Ahahahaaaa.... have you ever used drones? that'll answer your question. Stock up on T2 bpos if you can....
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while. ASCN lost based on systems and pvp.. this is directly linked to ship production... the fact is had ASCN the will to keep fighting, they could have done it... The money flowing out of jita through t2 production/sales makes this easy... You dont just need ISK to win a war but it does help a lot.
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:57:00 - [68] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 23/02/2007 15:55:44 I've posted this idea before over a year ago, but nobody ever took notice. Here it goes again, one possible solution to the whole T2 BPO & research agent problem. Quite simply, make RP stop accumulating after a certain number of inactive days for the agent in question. Here's a sample scenario: Player A has 5 research agents on 1 account, and he runs his daily R&D missions frequently. His RP accumulation percentage is at 100% of his max due to the high frequency of running missions. Player B has 25 agents spread across 5 accounts, and he never runs his daily R&D missions. His RP accumulation has ground to a halt due to him being so inactive with research missions. The accumulation could follow scale such as that below: 0 inactive days - 100% of RP max 1 inactive day - 90% of RP max 2 inactive days - 75% of RP max 3 inactive days - 35% of RP max 4 inactive days - 10% of RP max 5 or more inactive days - 0% of RP max Just an example, I'm sure you get the idea. What this sort of a system would accomplish is that it would make researching an ACTIVE playing area and it would eliminate everyone doing passive research. If you want a BPO, you better run the missions as often as you possibly can. This is just an idea to solve the passive/active issue, it doesn't account for the fact that the lottery would still be the selection tool of who gets the BPO. However, this way you could actually make a difference in terms of probability.
Srvin Taisorgky	Posted - 2007.02.23 16:17:00 - [69] The real problem is that they see this whole business as a adjunct to the PVP-corps-0.0-space-wars system. I doubt they will change anything unless highly pressured to make the game more markets friendly. I don't see this in the cards, but that is only my opinion. Remember these t2 bpos are an isk maker so that the 0.0 corps can build bigger and better war ships to fight the BOB WARS .
WredStorm Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.02.23 16:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Jinx Barker You are assuming that the Invention system will be F.U.B.A.R.ed as it is now. You are basing your assumption on the premise that the new system will be even more flawed then the old. That aside, however. Is there any reason to believe it won't be as FUBAR'd as it is now? Even if they improve the odds of success, the inventor still has costs that the BPO owner doesn't, such as datacores. Originally by: Jinx Barker Lets presume that Widget II will take 5 Mill ISK worth of Datacores or something. Well, then there is nothing stopping a potential inventor from obtaining an agent in their chosen field and buying datacores from the agent at the pre-set RP limit. At the same time, the people with bazziliion RPs will have similar access to the Agent and the datacores, since there is a limit on how many you can get from each agent. There is absolutley no reason why you should be forced to buy your datacores on the market, if you have access to the agent. I think your reasoning or perspective on this is flawed. Just because you can acquire the datacores with RP points doesn't mean they are "free". If they would have cost 5 million ISK on the open market then you could have sold your datacores for that much... instead you use them as part of the inventing process, they are used up in that process, and thus you've incurred 5 million ISK in costs to get that far in the process. Its similar to mining yourself in order to build a ship. If you spend 1M ISK to buy a Myrmidon BPC and then mine all the ore yourself, would you say your cost is only 1M to build that Myrmidon? Would you even for a second consider selling the completed Myrmidon for, say, 10x profit of 10M ISK? No, of course not... it costs about 30M ISK worth of minerals to build that Myrmidon, so even though you mined all those minerals yourself, they're not free. You could have sold them on the open market for 30M ISK instead of turning them into a brand new Myrmidon, which means the Myrmidon effectively cost you 31M ISK to build (30M in minerals, 1M for the BPC). The fact is, and no one can dispute it, a BPO owner will always be able to produce a given item for cheaper than someone using invention, both in terms of in-game resources required to build said item and in terms of the real-world time it takes them to do so. If the decision is made to no longer seed tech II BPOs into the game via the lottery that is fine... but you either have to remove the existing BPOs (e.g.: turn them into high-run BPCs) or you have to create an alternative method for bringing new BPOs into the game that isn't chance based. To not do one of these things is the same as CCP basically giving the finger to every industrialist, both present and future, who doesn't already own a tech II BPO. CCP will have created the "haves" and the "have nots", with no way for the "have nots" to ever match the "haves", no matter what they do... that is, in terms of what is supposed to be a game, not fair, not fun, and would, I think, drive away many people from the game. I hope CCP doesn't make such a mistake. Wred

Trishtan DeMore Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:00:00 - [71] OH man, what a ridiculous witch hunt is being done against the t2 bpo owners here. First there was complainment about not being able to build the ships/items themselves and being dependable on the t2 bpo owners: -> CCP gave them invention to create their own BPc Then there was the massive whinage that the lottery would be so unfair: -> Now CCP is about to stop the lottery all in all And now there are even more rivers of tears that there are older people which basically spend 4 years of subscription cash on this one game and own BPOs of items where you can only create BPc of and actually can compete because the margin is high on t2 items. It's not enough, no, never is it enough until we are all equal. What doesn't work in r/l has to work in my game, because I got later in. Solution: How about getting your head in shape and think a little bit. place a pos in a 0.0 system where u can rat and mine. Do a corp effort for 2 - 4 weeks, gather a couple billions and buy your first t2 bpo. or do complexes, or make missions or whatnot. I make 3b/month only using t1 bpo, huh, how is that possible? omgcheathaxploit. If you name using your head exploiting then I am guilty. Regards
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:11:00 - [72] Edited by: Aramendel on 23/02/2007 17:08:32 Originally by: Shadowsword An interface can be more profitable to use than a BPO. It just require a lot more efforts. I do not really think thats a viable argument. Veldspar mining can be more profitable than a t2 BPO. "It just requires a lot more effort." You can only produce so many items over time with a BPO. So anything else which has no fixed maximum can make more profit, be it mining, salvaging, missionrunning or even PvP. Thats a no-brainer. The problem and what makes many t2 BPO "I-wins" is the profit/time. When someone needs to "work" 5 hours to make 100 mil and someone else needs to "work" 5 minutes for that you don't really need to be a genius to see that it essentially creates different "classes" in EVE.
Ascelot Junior Caldari Redneck Revenge	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:51:00 - [73] Bad trolls Bad bears Get back under your rocks and stop trying to change the ****** game with all your whining every 5 mins
All Clear	Posted - 2007.02.23 18:53:00 - [74] i think it's ridiculous that so many players think having a t2 bpo is an 'i win' situation the reasoning (even ccp's) behind and suggestions for fixes don't make much sense either is a player with a t2 ammo bpo getting filthy rich compared to a player with a cerb bpo? absolutely not - the player with the ammo bpo could make a few millions a day if he hassles around in the different markets every day -- meanwhile the cerb bpo owner is making 300m+ profit per ship, with a line-up to buy from him or her this makes the notion of punishing ALL t2 bpo owners for the greed of the few, and it's silly how much profit has a t2 bpo owner made off a print he received last week, compared to someone who got a vagabond bpo years ago? but they should be penalized just the same, right? again, silly it's also ridiculous to see all the players posting 'i own tons of t2 bpos but i'd gladly have them turn into bpcs because.... well, because it's the right thing to do... and i'm just heroically objective like that... erm, yeah' bs, you're transparent in your bitter bias i do own a t2 bpo and i don't think they should be removed - i did a lot of work to get it, and i only received it less than 2 weeks ago -- i think most of you would think it was a great bpo, a real rags-to-riches story in the making... sad truth is that it's neither hac nor hulk, so it's A. harder to sell, and B. doesn't make that much money - almost 2 weeks of solid production and sales, and i've netted a whopping 55m isk i haven't played this game as long as most of my fellow players, but i realized early that i needed to do some catching up - rather than see myself as being at a disadvantage, i saw my friends as being at an advantage... one duly earned -- i set out to catch up in any way i could, i.e. planning, working harder, being ingame more, training smarter, and specializing i just know that there are bitter people out here right now complaining that I'VE got an unfair advantage over them now, even though they started playing the game before me - i bet they never bothered to get an RnD agent (bah! it's all luck!) or even to get more than one to them, i say... you suck you'll always be second rate and probably late for dinner, too you want to get richer than most t2 bpo owners?? get organized and increase the scale of your operations -- get a bs bpo, research it, buy an ft, set your mineral buy orders, build six bs a day and haul them to an appropriate market, sell them at a 25m isk mark up each doing that you'll make more isk than 90% of t2 bpo owners, and it's not even that much work to do... but you won't, will you? yep, that's right - you're just a bunch of whiny defeatists
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:07:00 - [75] Originally by: Fakespace Pretty much everyone that is saying to NOT remove T2 bpos, own a t2 bpo... Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, doesnt own a t2 bpo... What's your point? ---
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Jinx Barker Lets presume that Widget II will take 5 Mill ISK worth of Datacores or something. Well, then there is nothing stopping a potential inventor from obtaining an agent in their chosen field and buying datacores from the agent at the pre-set RP limit. At the same time, the people with bazziliion RPs will have similar access to the Agent and the datacores, since there is a limit on how many you can get from each agent. There is absolutley no reason why you should be forced to buy your datacores on the market, if you have access to the agent. Unfortunately, those rps and the datacores that you get from them skill have an opportunity cost, the only difference is that it is non-cash. Now this individual could cash in datacores and just sell them on market.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while. Invnetions will always be: 1) more unstable, and instability is bad for markets, and kills investment. Pos operaters will stop operating poses as prices bounce all over. 2) Invention takes more effort. For more effort, people will require more profit (higher prices) to make it worth their time, not to mention the inputs needed to actually get a bpo drop. In the extra time an inventor spends to produce 5 cerberus, a BPO owner could spend npcing or pvping. I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but I actually think invention would be similar in effects to pos-sovereignty on game play. 3) Never be profitable like t2 bpos are. The market will simply compete out any economic profit through invention, regardless of if t2 bpos are left in game.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:29:00 - [78] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Herring it's meant to be a competative game. And therein lies the problem. Once you reach X billion isk, it STOPS being a competative game if you can find someone that does not want their BPO. Honestly. When someone decided to cheat in this game, he gave himself T2 BPOs. (no, I'm not discussing the cheating itself, only pointing out the form it took) If that fact alone does not indicate that T2 BPOs need a serious look, I don't know what else does. I mean, seriously, when someone sits down with the basic intention to play EVE like Duke Nukem with Godmode on, and all he does is give himself some T2 BPOs... There just might be something very wrong with T2 BPOs. The other famous instance of cheating involved a gm spawning himself a faction kitted faction battleship, something more valuable than most T2 bpos. By your logic, things like complexes should be deleted since they give unfair advantages to players who happen to control them.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:34:00 - [79] Originally by: DorXtar Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. The only people that would leave would be the minority of the people with BPOs. That's not a lot of people. The majority of the people in EvE would benefit, and even new players would benefit entering into a leveled playing field. How would anyone benefit by getting rid of t2 bpo's? T2 prices would skyrocket, which is exactly what eve doesn't need.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Illuminaty Even 'bad' T2 BPOs have demi-win markups compared to T1 production. orly? tried to build and then sell a skiff with any type of markup above cost price lately? How about a 75mm railgun 2? Small energy Transfer 2? stop making rediculous statements with no proof behind them. As for: Quote: T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top". I'm guessing you have nfi about how the eve economy and market works. You'll quickly discover that most people advocating removal of T2 bpos have EXTREMELY limited understanding of even basic economics. CCP PLEASE before you consider any changes to the market, please hire a trained economist to do it right and achieve your objectives. Please do not follow the community witchhunt to nerf wealthy players because as it stands now, the effects would be very detrimental to the market, and the market is instrumental to eve. I'm sure there is a college in Iceland with an econ department, please go talk to them.

Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:47:00 - [81] Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. CCP should replace every last T2 BPO with a high run copy, and give a fair market value in isk to the holder. that would be the absolutely best thing to do to stabilize the T2 market. giving ppl a isk printing machine for several years have to end. and to let them keep the BPO's and nobody else have any chance at all in having one is even worse. the odds was way to low before and with everyone else being force to put alot of work in to make T2 stuff and the ones with BPO's not having to do the same will just increase their wealth even more. i hope that CCP has thought this through properly and wont be doing like they have with everything else "throw a half done thing out there and not fix it in years" Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:53:00 - [82] Leave T2 BPOs are they are. (Says a have-not) And keep seeding more T2 BPOs into the game, as they are done now. Although this post now looks like a dbp masterpiece, I'll continue by saying that EVE has always evolved. It doesn't have a static 'baseline'. The 0.0 game didn't used to rely on T2 ships at all, and these days it does. CCP, just accept that times change, and T2 is pretty much essential for playing the 0.0 game. Keep seeding those T2 BPOs into the game, make invention actually worthwhile, and now that you're learnt your lesson you can release T3 using invention and never have a single T3 BPO in-game.
Dessa DesPlains	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:56:00 - [83] Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:01:00 - [84] Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO I agree, and also, last time I checked on invention, I'd be better off just spending those hours ratting.
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO No proof-check No reasonable numbers-check Lack of knowledge of the profitability of most T2 bpos-check mindless flame-check yep it's all here.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Graalum Originally by: Gnulpie I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? Yeah but the ppl that killed ASCN or at least one alliance had better help than JUST T2 BPOs When you got THAT kinda help... the BPOs become insignificant looks around the restaurant then look at his mate "I wouldnt be greatly surprised if a little band came in and started playing hums the Star Wars Cantina theme"
Trishtan DeMore Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:46:00 - [87] Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 23/02/2007 20:43:49 Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 23/02/2007 20:43:24 Originally by: Richard Aiel Yeah but the ppl that killed ASCN or at least one alliance had better help than JUST T2 BPOs When you got THAT kinda help... the BPOs become insignificant What a pile of crap. what help did bob have? guns fitted on their ships? weeee
Kari Moltov Amarr The Forsakened Companions	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:50:00 - [88] Edited by: Kari Moltov on 23/02/2007 20:47:02 Originally by: Genericforumalt Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO No proof-check No reasonable numbers-check Lack of knowledge of the profitability of most T2 bpos-check mindless flame-check yep it's all here. QFT I posted in another thread earlier today and someone replied with this, which I think sums up some of the previous posts made above and which made me laugh my b**ks off: Originally by:** Xander XacXorien I would say the maximum is closer to 10+ billion a day for a good T2 BPO. Given research it could be a lot higher. Work it out for a Hulk, I dont know the exact figures but the production cost is something less than 50 million but sells for 550 million plus. I read somewhere you can manufacture 24 a day. 24 x 500 = 12 billion a day. That's a potential of 360 billion a month. Research the BPO and you get better production. I sigh in the general direction of the people who post with ignorance.
RoMUF Minmatar Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:53:00 - [89] Edited by: RoMUF on 23/02/2007 20:50:34 Edited by: RoMUF on 23/02/2007 20:50:07 Is there a date when the bpo lottery stops (when we can put all rp into datacores). Satal's Legion is recruiting. Contact me or Kyranor Rett for questions or join the channel "Satal's Legion"
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 21:01:00 - [90] Edited by: Fulber on 23/02/2007 20:57:26 Originally by: Trishtan DeMore What a pile of crap. what help did bob have? guns fitted on their ships? weeee Free T2 BPOs, and the dev responsible for a lot of the server code telling them that if a node crashes, those in the process of jumping into the system have log-in priority over those already in-system.



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