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Oveur... do we (the ones without T2 BPOs, ) errr gonna need vasaline?

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Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 20:52:16 from your blog: Originally by: Oveur "How do we then get blueprint originals in the future? The short answer, is that you don't. When we transition over to Invention, we would accelerate the last blueprint lotteries. It's only fair that the ones that are already scheduled to go out be delivered. But say that we do the transition in Revelations 1.4, we would be accelerating the current schedule by 4 months. After that, Invention - the player driven way to achieve Tech 2 blueprint copies would be the only way to get into Tech 2. Why? Well, at this point in time, we're simply not confident that any other system which we implement to deliver these icons of endless weatlh would earn your full trust. We need to earn your trust through this first, then we should talk together and find the final solution." So when the lottery stops. and the only way to get to T2 is to invent BLUEPRINT COPIES what happens to the people who have the originals?... do theirs become BPC as well? or do they get to keep theirs as original?..(highly unfair.. I mean, I rather keep my RP and hope I get lucky to get an original.) Cause there is NO way people with BPCs can compete against those with the originals.. essentially giving the holders of originals an "I win" button in market pvp... please clarify what is gonna happen...and cause alot of people will give up..(and maybe eve) if its the "we will never be able to compete certain individuals just cause they were here before we do and is lucky to get an UNLIMITED use original" ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Haffrage Less than Ideal	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:52:00 - [2] I can't tell who's saying what in this post. You do know about these things called quote tags, right? -----
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 20:53:52 fixed!!! (now I know... or atleast.. figured it out.. I think..) and I learned something new today! ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Haffrage Less than Ideal	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Haffrage on 22/02/2007 20:56:14 Well, the new system will actually function a lot like the lottery as it is now. BPO-holders are the guys with 100x the RP of any other one person, and the guys doing invention are the 10,000 guys with 1 rp. The guys doing invention will be the ones determining the new T2 prices, not the ones with BPO's (even if they BPO holders stand to make more profit). At least, that's how it'll work after they fix invention. -----
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 21:06:16 so... what happens to those of us with millions of stored RPs =P well assuming they fixed invention so is not a blow of wasted points... how could the copy still be better than the original?.. but yeah, I mean.. right now.. errr 16x MEch and 16 ship cores for a T2 Crusier Invention, only get 4 cores a day, needless to say even less RP needed.. they have to make it VERY easy to get the tools needed in order for the BPCers to be able to outproduce (originals have no down time. and more efficent...) the originals holders.. ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Sgt Blade Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:08:00 - [6] well tbh if you had spent 10bill+ on some t2 bpo you have saved up for since you starte them game .. im pretty sure they will get a little **ed off if their bpo became a bpc... even if it was 100 run or 1000 run it still jsutwoundlt be the same.... leave the bpo's out where they are because people will always end up selling them somtime or anotehr that and get passed around. and no i dont have a t2 bpo.... Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5**
Lori Carlyle LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:11:00 - [7] Another chance based thing. You are going to FIX invention before you do this arn't you CCP ? ------------------------------------------
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:11:00 - [8] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 21:10:46 true..but yeah, I rather would like to see an Research point store like thing... 50000000 RP for a T2 crusier BPO or something like that.. edit: (okay, maybe too far, just found out that with 1 agent, 50000000 RP takes 342 years to accumulate....maybe 100000 RPs.. which is about a year of running one mission for your R&D (can only do 1 a day anyways). worth of RP ) ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:29:00 - [9] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 22/02/2007 21:26:20 My opinion would be to accelerate the T2 Schedule. Give out the remaining T2 BPOs, because one way or another they will have ot be given out. This will give CCP about 12-14 months before any real changes need to be implemented. In other words, it has been a while since the last T2 Lottery. EVE trudged along just fine during that time, regardless of the overpriced T2, with ALL BPOs given out EVE will go along as well, and all the prices will settle eventually. Once the BPOs are out, we are all back to status quo, and CCP has a chance to fully flesh out the idea of "No More T2 BPOs." Then they can decide what to do. it also gives them an option to do nothing, and leave the system of lottery in place, if they so wish, although I doubt that will happen. Also, I do not believe for a second that the developers of EVE will convert existing BPOs into the BPCs, that would be tremendously unfair to everyone involved, the owners, especially the ones who paid for the BPOs, and the T2 consumers, since prices will spike thousends of percent if this will happen. Will cause too much shock to the system initially, might even cause more problems than it will solve.
Cloora APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 22/02/2007 21:26:20 My opinion would be to accelerate the T2 Schedule. Give out the remaining T2 BPOs, because one way or another they will have ot be given out. This will give CCP about 12-14 months before any real changes need to be implemented. In other words, it has been a while since the last T2 Lottery. EVE trudged along just fine during that time, regardless of the overpriced T2, with ALL BPOs given out EVE will go along as well, and all the prices will settle eventually. Once the BPOs are out, we are all back to status quo, and CCP has a chance to fully flesh out the idea of "No More T2 BPOs." Then they can decide what to do. it also gives them an option to do nothing, and leave the system of lottery in place, if they so wish, although I doubt that will happen. Also, I do not believe for a second that the developers of EVE will convert existing BPOs into the BPCs, that would be tremendously unfair to everyone involved, the owners, especially the ones who paid for the BPOs, and the T2 consumers, since prices will spike thousends of percent if this will happen. Will cause too much shock to the system initially, might even cause more problems than it will solve. Please read the Dev blog... they ARE accelerating the lottery in that time. BUT I still think all BPO's need to turn into max run BPCs. The BPO owners already made all their ISK with them, now make it fair to everyone. ======================================== Production Assistant of APEX Unlimited I don't want to be forced to Jet Can mine or buy a hauler alt to mine effectivly. BIGGER CARGO HOLDS IN BARGES NOW!

Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:39:00 - [11] T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. CCP should replace every last T2 BPO with a high run copy, and give a fair market value in isk to the holder. Even 'bad' T2 BPOs have demi-win markups compared to T1 production. T2 BPOs never leave a station unless they are in a freighter hold, or being carrier jumped from a system when it is empty to another empty system. You have to be an idiot of the highest order to lose one. EVE is a PvP game, and that includes the markets. T1 BPOs are an unlimited resource, therefore it does not really matter that you can't attack them. T2 BPOs are a limited resource that does not wear out, and are essentially invulnerable to attack. Even if they are inside of a captured station, they are in the hanger of someone with a jump clone that will simply jump back and undock a carrier and cyno out the next time the system is dead. T2 BPOs are a bad game mechanic. The whole invention thing pretty much tells me that CCP knows this. CCP needs to stop fiddling around and just rip the band-aid off. T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top".
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:42:00 - [12] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 22/02/2007 21:39:58 Originally by: Cloora Please read the Dev blog... they ARE accelerating the lottery in that time. BUT I still think all BPO's need to turn into max run BPCs. The BPO owners already made all their ISK with them, now make it fair to everyone. I was thinking 24 days. I mean UBER-ACCELERATE the current lottery. And no it would not be "fair to all," - you are assuming that T2 owners will always come out on top due to current deficiencies in Salvaging+Invention fields. I begg to differ, they will have plenty of tiem to refine the system. Also, there are many new T2 BPO owners who have worked for their stuff, paid subscription fees on many accounts, ran stupid 1 mission/per day thing for years, etc; and as I mentioned, what about people who spend the ISK to buy the BPOs, that would leave them out in the cold. Best solution is to give out all T2 BPOs in the next 24-30 days. And then have a team of developers working on the new system, refining it, making it user friendly, and ballancing it all out.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:43:00 - [13] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 21:39:53 love Illuminaty's post =P but yeah, the limiting factors for T2 production shouldnt be the prints... since well, as above.. should be the moon minerals/materials for production really... now thats competition that can be errrr competed agains. (competitor's POS moon mining in low sec?... hire a dread team to take it out, cripple your competitor's supply line.) ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Sgt Blade well tbh if you had spent 10bill+ on some t2 bpo you have saved up for since you starte them game .. im pretty sure they will get a little ****ed off if their bpo became a bpc... even if it was 100 run or 1000 run it still jsutwoundlt be the same.... leave the bpo's out where they are because people will always end up selling them somtime or anotehr that and get passed around. and no i dont have a t2 bpo.... Well let them whine, they have had so much time to build and profit... they also have fair warning about the t2 market and changes that have been needed for quite some time. That is their risk, they paid huge prices, those were player set prices... so if they lose out, so be it. They sepdn 10bil like the rest of us spend 100mil... I've lost 100mil many times, sorry, but speaking up for these rich people isn't in my vocabulary.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Illuminaty Even 'bad' T2 BPOs have demi-win markups compared to T1 production. orly? tried to build and then sell a skiff with any type of markup above cost price lately? How about a 75mm railgun 2? Small energy Transfer 2? stop making rediculous statements with no proof behind them. As for: Quote: T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top". I'm guessing you have nfi about how the eve economy and market works. ---------------------- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
WredStorm Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:50:00 - [16] As I understand it, there is a pretty hefty cost to be able to use invention, each and every time you use the invention process. This is a cost that the current BPO holders will never incur, thus they will continue to have a huge advantage over anyone trying to compete. Sure, profits will go down for the BPO holders, but they'll still always have an advantage that no one using invention will ever be able to match. For example, if it costs 50 million ISK worth of datacores and what-not to create (using invention) a 10 run BPC of "Widgets II" item, that amounts to a 5 million ISK per unit cost that the person using invention will have, above and beyond the actual cost of materials to build the item. Let us then say that the base cost of materials to produce each one of these Widget IIs is 10 million ISK. The person with the BPO will have researched ME on their BPO so that their waste factor is, say, 1%, or an extra 100K ISk, thus their cost of materials is 10.1M ISK. Meanwhile, the person with the BPC created via invention will have a 10% waste factor, which means their effective base cost is 11M plus the 5M from the invention process mentioned above equals 16M ISK. So... someone with a BPO can produce Widget IIs for 10.1M ISK and everyone else it will cost them at least 16M ISK... who do you think can win that price war? The only way to resolve this is to either change all BPOs into BPCs (which I think would be unfair), or to allow people to continue to get BPOs by one means or another. Personally, I'd love to see the "RP Store" approach taken, where you can "buy" BPC for relatively cheap, but if you want BPOs then its gonna take you quite a bit longer to make that many RPs. No more lottery, no more chance, and you'll start to see a much more even playing field (even in the short term, as people who've been researching in vain for years would be able to buy tech II BPOs with their accumulated RPs). Just my two bits, Wred
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:21:00 - [17] Originally by: WredStorm As I understand it, there is a pretty hefty cost to be able to use invention, each and every time you use the invention process. This is a cost that the current BPO holders will never incur, thus they will continue to have a huge advantage over anyone trying to compete. Sure, profits will go down for the BPO holders, but they'll still always have an advantage that no one using invention will ever be able to match. For example, if it costs 50 million ISK worth of datacores and what-not to create (using invention) a 10 run BPC of "Widgets II" item, that amounts to a 5 million ISK per unit cost that the person using invention will have, above and beyond the actual cost of materials to build the item. Let us then say that the base cost of materials to produce each one of these Widget IIs is 10 million ISK. The person with the BPO will have researched ME on their BPO so that their waste factor is, say, 1%, or an extra 100K ISk, thus their cost of materials is 10.1M ISK. Meanwhile, the person with the BPC created via invention will have a 10% waste factor, which means their effective base cost is 11M plus the 5M from the invention process mentioned above equals 16M ISK. So... someone with a BPO can produce Widget IIs for 10.1M ISK and everyone else it will cost them at least 16M ISK... who do you think can win that price war? The only way to resolve this is to either change all BPOs into BPCs (which I think would be unfair), or to allow people to continue to get BPOs by one means or another. Personally, I'd love to see the "RP Store" approach taken, where you can "buy" BPC for relatively cheap, but if you want BPOs then its gonna take you quite a bit longer to make that many RPs. No more lottery, no more chance, and you'll start to see a much more even playing field (even in the short term, as people who've been researching in vain for years would be able to buy tech II BPOs with their accumulated RPs). Just my two bits, Wred You are assuming that the Invention system will be F.U.B.A.R.ed as it is now. You are basing your assumption on the premise that the new system will be even more flawed then the old. That aside, however. Lets presume that Widget II will take 5 Mill ISK worth of Datacores or something. Well, then there is nothing stopping a potential inventor from obtaining an agent in their chosen field and buying datacores from the agent at the pre-set RP limit. At the same time, the people with bazziliion RPs will have similar access to the Agent and the datacores, since there is a limit on how many you can get from each agent. There is absolutley no reason why you should be forced to buy your datacores on the market, if you have access to the agent. Personally I am adapting a "wait and see" attitude to this whole thing. I am sure we are at least a year if not longer away from the actuall implementation of "NO T2 BPOs" system, by then, who knows what will happen.
Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Omber Zombie orly? tried to build and then sell a skiff with any type of markup above cost price lately? How about a 75mm railgun 2? Small energy Transfer 2? Never leaving Jita... Buying off the seller market. 75mm rail I x1: 2.75k Morphite x1: 6.3k Pye x24: 240isk R.A.M. Weapon Tech x 1/8: 12.5k Robotics x1: 7k Superconducting Rails x3: 41.4k Trit x46: 115isk Total: 70,305 isk build cost under worst case conditions. Jita Market History: the LOW price stays around 180-200k. Occasionally dips to 70 or spikes to 300k. Volume isn't that great, but they DO sell. Originally by: Omber Zombie stop making rediculous statements with no proof behind them. QFMFT.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Cause there is NO way people with BPCs can compete against those with the originals.. essentially giving the holders of originals an "I win" button in market pvp... Wrong. An interface can be more profitable to use than a BPO. It just require a lot more efforts. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
UniSol 2500 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:39:00 - [20] I have no problem with t2 BPO's remaining in game. As long as everytime the BPO is used to manufacture there is chanced based system that the run could fail losing the materials put in. There's a fixed amount of datacores added to the material list matching invention. The maximum amount of runs is limited to the max amount of runs available to an invention BPC.

Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:39:00 - [21] Originally by: WredStorm For example, if it costs 50 million ISK worth of datacores and what-not to create (using invention) a 10 run BPC of "Widgets II" item, that amounts to a 5 million ISK per unit cost that the person using invention will have, above and beyond the actual cost of materials to build the item. Let us then say that the base cost of materials to produce each one of these Widget IIs is 10 million ISK. The person with the BPO will have researched ME on their BPO so that their waste factor is, say, 1%, or an extra 100K ISk, thus their cost of materials is 10.1M ISK. Meanwhile, the person with the BPC created via invention will have a 10% waste factor, which means their effective base cost is 11M plus the 5M from the invention process mentioned above equals 16M ISK. So... someone with a BPO can produce Widget IIs for 10.1M ISK and everyone else it will cost them at least 16M ISK... who do you think can win that price war? Nice example, but you forget two things: - An inventor can run multiple jobs on //, so what he can't do in margin, he can do in quantities. - If inventing a particular module/ship turn out to be worthless, the demand for datacores will decrease, which mean their price will drop, which in turn mean inventing will become profitable again. It all balance itself out at the end... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:01:00 - [22] Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. ---
Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top". If you want to grind until you 'make it', and never have to worry about losing it... Go play WoW.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while.
Samuel Freedom Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. If they stop making new tech 2 BPO's *and keep the ones already seeded in* how will new player ever be able to compete against something like that ? This is the kind of thinking that will discourage new players to eve. Turn them into High run BPC with possible compensation from CCP of some sort. And saying people are jealous ? maybe your just greedy *I represent the views of my corp.*
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 23:40:59 Originally by: Samuel Freedom Originally by: Jennifer Meek Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. If they stop making new tech 2 BPO's *and keep the ones already seeded in* how will new player ever be able to compete against something like that ? This is the kind of thinking that will discourage new players to eve. Turn them into High run BPC with possible compensation from CCP of some sort. And saying people are jealous ? maybe your just greedy They will be able to compete with invention, invention will get cheaper to do, they will drive prices down. Look what happened to cap recharger 2's. The T2 bpos become less of a "ISK Printer". Inventors can also run several jobs at the same time, what they lack up in quality, they can make up for in Quantity. I'm not scared that invention is going to hurt my ISK printer, what I don't want is CCP abnormally taking away what I worked for. ---
Syrann The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while. Two entirely different forms of PvP - one is combat - one is market PvP. That aside - I think I'm with the T2 BPO owners. Look at the markup on T2 gear... how much of that is from build cost, and how much is just supply and demand? If we were talking about 5% markups or even 50% markups, then yes, the invention cost would come into play... but I doubt that it'll matter to anyone who actually works at it. That being said, I don't do market PvP... other then getting shafted by T2 gear prices. ------------ It's great to be Ama... Erm crappit, nevermind.
Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. BPOs are owned by players, not alliances. Valuable assets end up in a specific player's pocket when an alliance falls. Group ownership is pie in the sky. ASCN, like every alliance that fell, fell because of internal politics. Isk wasn't going to change that. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons for the player that holds them, because even a halfway decent BPO provides a effortless and riskless way to extract resources that are sheltered from competition until the day the server shuts down. Honestly, I think the only reason you hear owners of decent T2 BPOs start squawking whenever anyone talks about adjusting the T2 BPO system, is because the DEVs are the ONLY source of risk left for them in the game.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.23 00:10:00 - [29] Hey, I dislike the whole idea of the lottery as much as the next person, still, replacing it with an even more flawed system isn't any better. It doesn't matter how CHEAP invention will be, even if it's FREE (which is not) and you obtain high ME/PE values on your BPCs (which you don't) and get them 100% of the time (guess what, neither that happends), you still can at best break even compared to a BPO. AT BEST. So maybe you have or you don't have a T2 BPO. That's not that important. But knowing some of them exist in somebody's hands and NO NEW ONES WILL EVER EXIST, no matter how hard you try and no matter what you try to do... now, THAT is just depressing. Let me paint you a picture on how T1 manufacture would look like if you made T1 manufacture process similar to T2 invention and manufacture... Everybody who got T1 BPOs would keep them. However, everybody else would no longer be able to buy any more T1 BPOs. Instead, you would buy "T1 primers" from NPC corporations market, and then you'd have to either run missions for some agents or explore with the new probing system to gather various "Schematics". Then you'd put those T1 primers and schematics into a lab slot, and HOPE you'd get a T1 BPC with a pathetic run count and laughable ME/PE. Sounds ridiculous ? Yes it is. So is invention in its current state. INVENTION SHOULD NOT ONLY PRODUCE BPCs, BUT BPOs TOO. You need a fresh influx of T2+ BPOs, a CONSTANT one to be honest, and let the darn moon miners set the end prices. No, I do not operate any POS, before you ask. If you invent BPCs, you should always get some result. On average, a percentually lower ME/PE and a bit less than half of original BPC runs with 100% certainty to get at least 1 run and no ME/PE below -30, that's a good start. If you (attempt to) invent BPOs, you should use a BPO in the process instead of BPCs, also risk your interface in the process, but POTENTIALLY be able to gain a BPO. You could also make it so you only lose the interface when you gain a T2 BPO, but use up a lot of T1 BPOs and datacores in the process. Or heck, you could make it so that you always get a T2 BPO, but the ME/PE levels would be ABYSMALLY LOW, so you'd have to spend months at an end to even reach 0 ME/PE. Point is, you'll eventually be able to GET there. Lottery has to go, true. But new BPOs have to remain a constant. BPC invention is not satisfactory, you need to have BPO invention too. As a deterrent, use whatever means you want, just make it so there's no chance to cry foul play due to "extreme randomness"... keep it well below 95% randomness and it's all fine. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.02.23 01:35:00 - [30] I'm sick with the flu so I'm just going to quote some stuff here that is my opinion. Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Illuminaty Even 'bad' T2 BPOs have demi-win markups compared to T1 production. orly? tried to build and then sell a skiff with any type of markup above cost price lately? How about a 75mm railgun 2? Small energy Transfer 2? stop making rediculous statements with no proof behind them. As for: Quote: T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top". I'm guessing you have nfi about how the eve economy and market works. Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy.

Herring Pimpology Pimpology in Mining Player	Posted - 2007.02.23 02:44:00 - [31] As a person who has not a single t2 bpo, I still think the people who have them should be able to keep them. This game isn't based on a communist principle. The people who worked hard and bought these bpo's off the market should not be punished because of the whines of the many. Not fair you say? Neither is ganking nubs. Or scamming isk by contracts, or remote use of DD's, or hundreds of other things in this game. It's not meant to be a fair game, it's meant to be a competative game. You want t2 bpo's? Work hard, save isk and buy them. Wishing for better mining ships in a system near you.
Herring Pimpology Pimpology in Mining Player	Posted - 2007.02.23 02:44:00 - [32] As a person who has not a single t2 bpo, I still think the people who have them should be able to keep them. This game isn't based on a communist principle. The people who worked hard and bought these bpo's off the market should not be punished because of the whines of the many. Not fair you say? Neither is ganking nubs. Or scamming isk by contracts, or remote use of DD's, or hundreds of other things in this game. It's not meant to be a fair game, it's meant to be a competative game. You want t2 bpo's? Work hard, save isk and buy them. Wishing for better mining ships in a system near you.
Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:48:00 - [33] Originally by: Herring it's meant to be a competative game. And therein lies the problem. Once you reach X billion isk, it STOPS being a competative game if you can find someone that does not want their BPO. Honestly. When someone decided to cheat in this game, he gave himself T2 BPOs. (no, I'm not discussing the cheating itself, only pointing out the form it took) If that fact alone does not indicate that T2 BPOs need a serious look, I don't know what else does. I mean, seriously, when someone sits down with the basic intention to play EVE like Duke Nukem with Godmode on, and all he does is give himself some T2 BPOs... There just might be something very wrong with T2 BPOs.
Illuminaty Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Herring it's meant to be a competative game. And therein lies the problem. Once you reach X billion isk, it STOPS being a competative game if you can find someone that does not want their BPO. Honestly. When someone decided to cheat in this game, he gave himself T2 BPOs. (no, I'm not discussing the cheating itself, only pointing out the form it took) If that fact alone does not indicate that T2 BPOs need a serious look, I don't know what else does. I mean, seriously, when someone sits down with the basic intention to play EVE like Duke Nukem with Godmode on, and all he does is give himself some T2 BPOs... There just might be something very wrong with T2 BPOs.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:53:00 - [35] uhhh.... you guys could head over here and post your feedback? just an idea ------------------------ From here on out i'm pretty sure CAOD forums = Jerry Springer
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.23 03:53:00 - [36] uhhh.... you guys could head over here and post your feedback? just an idea ------------------------ From here on out i'm pretty sure CAOD forums = Jerry Springer
Berious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.23 04:02:00 - [37] Edited by: Berious on 23/02/2007 03:59:48 Oh damn just remembered I wasn't supposed to do this
Berious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.23 04:02:00 - [38] Edited by: Berious on 23/02/2007 03:59:48 Oh damn just remembered I wasn't supposed to do this
Flaming Lemming	Posted - 2007.02.23 04:07:00 - [39] An answer to the topic... "yes" I'm just an Alt....but my main doesn't have a sig either. a forum thread you need to read
Flaming Lemming	Posted - 2007.02.23 04:07:00 - [40] An answer to the topic... "yes" I'm just an Alt....but my main doesn't have a sig either. a forum thread you need to read

Annatar The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.23 05:24:00 - [41] Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
Annatar The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.23 05:24:00 - [42] Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
Deepspace Wanderer	Posted - 2007.02.23 06:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. Translation : I have my isk-printing "I-win" button, now STFU and let me watch my wallet grow. not a good thing for Eve
Deepspace Wanderer	Posted - 2007.02.23 06:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. Translation : I have my isk-printing "I-win" button, now STFU and let me watch my wallet grow. not a good thing for Eve
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.23 06:59:00 - [45] Whatever they decide to do with the BPO's invention needs to be fixed first. The chance based system is pure crap and needs to be addressed before anything else is even considered.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.23 06:59:00 - [46] Whatever they decide to do with the BPO's invention needs to be fixed first. The chance based system is pure crap and needs to be addressed before anything else is even considered.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.23 07:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Xelios Whatever they decide to do with the BPO's invention needs to be fixed first. The chance based system is pure crap and needs to be addressed before anything else is even considered. yeah, thats the other alternative.. currently, is not worth doing... it might be worth it if a day's worth of RP can get you afew cores... but yeah... BPO owners: constant production BPC inventors: wait a week to TRY to invent something and might not get a BPC then have to wait another week to produce.. ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.23 07:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Xelios Whatever they decide to do with the BPO's invention needs to be fixed first. The chance based system is pure crap and needs to be addressed before anything else is even considered. yeah, thats the other alternative.. currently, is not worth doing... it might be worth it if a day's worth of RP can get you afew cores... but yeah... BPO owners: constant production BPC inventors: wait a week to TRY to invent something and might not get a BPC then have to wait another week to produce.. ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
DorXtar	Posted - 2007.02.23 07:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. The only people that would leave would be the minority of the people with BPOs. That's not a lot of people. The majority of the people in EvE would benefit, and even new players would benefit entering into a leveled playing field.
DorXtar	Posted - 2007.02.23 07:17:00 - [50] Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. The only people that would leave would be the minority of the people with BPOs. That's not a lot of people. The majority of the people in EvE would benefit, and even new players would benefit entering into a leveled playing field.

Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.02.23 08:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. Nice sig. Also, you're a fool. Lets see. You spent over a year to get your collection. What prevented many of us from doing the same? Do I have to add two and two together for you? Do I really? - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.02.23 08:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. Nice sig. Also, you're a fool. Lets see. You spent over a year to get your collection. What prevented many of us from doing the same? Do I have to add two and two together for you? Do I really? - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.02.23 08:53:00 - [53] T2 BPOs should be simply removed from EVE with no compensation for the holders. Don't whine you made enough profits from these and EVE got wicked enough by that (hmm, faction ships with officer mods in pvp, renewed immediately if destroyed ). The license to print isks must stop now. that will be good to limit the inflation. I own 6 T2 ships bpos, 1 T2 heavy drone, 1 T2 mod and a few ammo bpos. I have no problem to see these removed from the game, because I have others sources of income and because Invention system is fun
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2007.02.23 08:53:00 - [54] T2 BPOs should be simply removed from EVE with no compensation for the holders. Don't whine you made enough profits from these and EVE got wicked enough by that (hmm, faction ships with officer mods in pvp, renewed immediately if destroyed ). The license to print isks must stop now. that will be good to limit the inflation. I own 6 T2 ships bpos, 1 T2 heavy drone, 1 T2 mod and a few ammo bpos. I have no problem to see these removed from the game, because I have others sources of income and because Invention system is fun
Bangoura Minmatar Sound of Silence	Posted - 2007.02.23 09:53:00 - [55] If there are to be no more T2 BPO's added to the game then there can be no alternative but to remove the previous ones that were issued. Many of them are absurdly high value items in game anyway, I always felt they never should have been introduced but should have been more frequently seeded as very high run BPC's. I understand that people have spent lots of money on BPO's, but people have spent lots of money on other in game items that were then nerfed or changed, precedents have been set, it wouldn't be the first or last time. There would be no fairness in leaving something in game with people (many of them so ahead of the rest of the playerbase they couldn't be caught anyway) that no one else could ever obtain, either through sheer luck or insanely hard work.
Bangoura Minmatar Sound of Silence	Posted - 2007.02.23 09:53:00 - [56] If there are to be no more T2 BPO's added to the game then there can be no alternative but to remove the previous ones that were issued. Many of them are absurdly high value items in game anyway, I always felt they never should have been introduced but should have been more frequently seeded as very high run BPC's. I understand that people have spent lots of money on BPO's, but people have spent lots of money on other in game items that were then nerfed or changed, precedents have been set, it wouldn't be the first or last time. There would be no fairness in leaving something in game with people (many of them so ahead of the rest of the playerbase they couldn't be caught anyway) that no one else could ever obtain, either through sheer luck or insanely hard work.
Fakespace	Posted - 2007.02.23 10:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. Pretty much everyone that is saying to NOT remove T2 bpos, own a t2 bpo... I have pushed ALOT of time, isk AND skill points into invention, and must continue to do so as long as i want to stay in the game. This i accepted when i started (what i didnt accept was the utter lack of mathematical skill CCP showed when making the system:) Honestly, I dont CARE where you got the BPO's from, the fact is that you just want to keep making isk from work you did a year ago, and then you have the nerve to call people like me jealous? Also, what prevented me from "doing the same", that is - gather isk and buy T2 BPO's, is that the developers wans us to do invention instead of bying T2 BPO's. Also, if you havent taken any of all the hints that has come that this would happen... The ONLY person to blame are yourself
Fakespace	Posted - 2007.02.23 10:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Edited by: Jennifer Meek on 22/02/2007 22:58:15 Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, don't own a t2 bpo, or didn't put a ton of effort to get a T2 bpo. I spent over a year to get my collection of BPO's, what prevented you from doing the same? I didn't get them from the magic lottery. I worked many moons to aquire the ISK to get my BPO's and paid a hefty sum for them. Nothing. It's just jealousy. Pretty much everyone that is saying to NOT remove T2 bpos, own a t2 bpo... I have pushed ALOT of time, isk AND skill points into invention, and must continue to do so as long as i want to stay in the game. This i accepted when i started (what i didnt accept was the utter lack of mathematical skill CCP showed when making the system:) Honestly, I dont CARE where you got the BPO's from, the fact is that you just want to keep making isk from work you did a year ago, and then you have the nerve to call people like me jealous? Also, what prevented me from "doing the same", that is - gather isk and buy T2 BPO's, is that the developers wans us to do invention instead of bying T2 BPO's. Also, if you havent taken any of all the hints that has come that this would happen... The ONLY person to blame are yourself
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:17:00 - [59] Edited by: Neuromandis on 23/02/2007 14:15:34 I have read for most of the thread, but not all, so forgive me if someone has already said that. Consider this: George has a Carrier (insert T2 BPO). Devs decide Carriers (BPO's) are unbalanced, and removes them from the game. Tina enters game and plays. She sees George's Carrier and says "Oooh nice, I want one of these too, HOW can I get one?" You can't, they're not seeded in the game any more, not ever again. I am sorry, someone else has it, but you do not have the SLIGHTEST chance in the world of acquiring one unless someone decides to sell it to you. Unlike anything else in the game, you cannot earn it, invent it, develop the skills to make it, winn a tournament that will award it to you, NOTHING. Sorry, you're SOL. You should have started EVE earlier. Point being, I can see how transmuting BPO's to high-run BPC's would seem unfair, but that can be remedied. Leaving in the game something that someone can NEVER work towards obtaining is WRONG. Unfairness-factor would simply be remedied by giving enough timeframe to BPO owners to make back their isk + profit, i.e. a BPC that gives them 6 months worth of production runs at the same ME and PE they have researched (if you want to make the change NOW), OR, notify the playerbase with a CONCRETE date (6 months in the future), and then make them STANDARD bpc's at that date, exactly like they would have obtained through invention. Not a single isk to buy anything. Owning a BPO is an investment, not a right.
Kees Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:31:00 - [60] Originally by: KHEN T2 BPOs should be simply removed from EVE with no compensation for the holders. Don't whine you made enough profits from these and EVE got wicked enough by that (hmm, faction ships with officer mods in pvp, renewed immediately if destroyed ). The license to print isks must stop now. that will be good to limit the inflation. I own 6 T2 ships bpos, 1 T2 heavy drone, 1 T2 mod and a few ammo bpos. I have no problem to see these removed from the game, because I have others sources of income and because Invention system is fun Trash yours then and make the ultimate gesture. In fact if you trash your multiple 'license to print ISK' BPO's i'll trash my 2 most-definitely not 'License to print ISK' BPO's. I'd also be interested to know how much ISK they have made you before you trash them as the 1 BPO I have that 'could' make me some ISK I got 3 weeks ago, has just come out of research and takes 3 hours to make 1 mod on which I make 2 mill profit. That is 16 mill profit per day provided I have all the components and materials together and can sell in the system I manufacture (which I can't). I can run 2 or 3 lvl 4 missions and make that much ISK so please do not assume ALL BPO's are the cliched and horrendously overused 'License to print ISK' some people make them out to be. ------------------------------ 'The man who used the universe'

Aille Pluthrak Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Annatar The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. It is not on the same level has the combat revamp in SWG. That touched everyone in the game in a major way. Making T2 BPOs into T2 BPCs does not. I kind of hope it does happen just to see the ***** fest on the forums. ---------------------- Boom goes the ship! Squish goes the pilot!
Halafian The Graduates	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:51:00 - [62] Edited by: Halafian on 23/02/2007 14:55:05 edit: wrong place
AlleyKat Gallente The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:08:00 - [63] It's gonna be interesting to see how the playerbase reacts to the launch of Tech2 Battleships. With no more lottery, these ships will only be produced through invention - unless I've missed a dev blog / post on this topic... Recruitment Film
Aldirien Rathmore	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Aille Pluthrak I kind of hope it does happen just to see the ***** fest on the forums. Chaos...it's not just theory I say the T2 BPOs came into the game in a "random" fashion and they should leave in the same manner. Attach a "chance of removal" to every T2 BPO that is checked every time it is used. CCP can decide whatever % they'd like to assign and then just let the time-bomb start ticking. The more they are used the more chance they risk of going poof. This is not like other games where you are talking about limited edition items like weapons or armor where a finite amount exists, this is the mold itself. I believe we should look to the film Blade Runner for guidance in this matter... Rachael: "I'm not in the business. I am the business." Leon: "Nothing is worse than having an itch you can never scratch." Eldon Tyrell: "The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long. And you have burned so very very brightly, Roy." --Om Man Ni Pad Me Um-- The wisdom of BLade Runner shall not be questioned!
Traska Gannel	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:34:00 - [65] Here is another idea - probably already suggested. Perhaps the invention process should lead to T2+ or T3 items with slightly better than T2 stats. That leaves folks the option of producing good but not the best T2 items from their BPOs or working through the invention process for items that aren't as efficient to build but in which the final product is somewhat better than the T2 BPO counterpart. The probability of inventing a T2+ item from the invention process could be set to any desired value depending on what would keep players interested and balance the return. This would not devalue existing T2 BPO's but at the same time would make invention attractive and worthwhile since you could then produce better items. (Keep in mind too that there are already many common Tech I named items (not including faction or deadspace variants) that can be considered as better than the Tech II counterparts - usually do to less demanding fitting requirements). So it would not be unreasonable to come up with T2+ variants of existing T2 items.
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:50:00 - [66] Originally by: Lori Carlyle Another chance based thing. You are going to FIX invention before you do this arn't you CCP ? Ahahahaaaa.... have you ever used drones? that'll answer your question. Stock up on T2 bpos if you can....
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while. ASCN lost based on systems and pvp.. this is directly linked to ship production... the fact is had ASCN the will to keep fighting, they could have done it... The money flowing out of jita through t2 production/sales makes this easy... You dont just need ISK to win a war but it does help a lot.
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:57:00 - [68] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 23/02/2007 15:55:44 I've posted this idea before over a year ago, but nobody ever took notice. Here it goes again, one possible solution to the whole T2 BPO & research agent problem. Quite simply, make RP stop accumulating after a certain number of inactive days for the agent in question. Here's a sample scenario: Player A has 5 research agents on 1 account, and he runs his daily R&D missions frequently. His RP accumulation percentage is at 100% of his max due to the high frequency of running missions. Player B has 25 agents spread across 5 accounts, and he never runs his daily R&D missions. His RP accumulation has ground to a halt due to him being so inactive with research missions. The accumulation could follow scale such as that below: 0 inactive days - 100% of RP max 1 inactive day - 90% of RP max 2 inactive days - 75% of RP max 3 inactive days - 35% of RP max 4 inactive days - 10% of RP max 5 or more inactive days - 0% of RP max Just an example, I'm sure you get the idea. What this sort of a system would accomplish is that it would make researching an ACTIVE playing area and it would eliminate everyone doing passive research. If you want a BPO, you better run the missions as often as you possibly can. This is just an idea to solve the passive/active issue, it doesn't account for the fact that the lottery would still be the selection tool of who gets the BPO. However, this way you could actually make a difference in terms of probability.
Srvin Taisorgky	Posted - 2007.02.23 16:17:00 - [69] The real problem is that they see this whole business as a adjunct to the PVP-corps-0.0-space-wars system. I doubt they will change anything unless highly pressured to make the game more markets friendly. I don't see this in the cards, but that is only my opinion. Remember these t2 bpos are an isk maker so that the 0.0 corps can build bigger and better war ships to fight the BOB WARS .
WredStorm Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.02.23 16:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Jinx Barker You are assuming that the Invention system will be F.U.B.A.R.ed as it is now. You are basing your assumption on the premise that the new system will be even more flawed then the old. That aside, however. Is there any reason to believe it won't be as FUBAR'd as it is now? Even if they improve the odds of success, the inventor still has costs that the BPO owner doesn't, such as datacores. Originally by: Jinx Barker Lets presume that Widget II will take 5 Mill ISK worth of Datacores or something. Well, then there is nothing stopping a potential inventor from obtaining an agent in their chosen field and buying datacores from the agent at the pre-set RP limit. At the same time, the people with bazziliion RPs will have similar access to the Agent and the datacores, since there is a limit on how many you can get from each agent. There is absolutley no reason why you should be forced to buy your datacores on the market, if you have access to the agent. I think your reasoning or perspective on this is flawed. Just because you can acquire the datacores with RP points doesn't mean they are "free". If they would have cost 5 million ISK on the open market then you could have sold your datacores for that much... instead you use them as part of the inventing process, they are used up in that process, and thus you've incurred 5 million ISK in costs to get that far in the process. Its similar to mining yourself in order to build a ship. If you spend 1M ISK to buy a Myrmidon BPC and then mine all the ore yourself, would you say your cost is only 1M to build that Myrmidon? Would you even for a second consider selling the completed Myrmidon for, say, 10x profit of 10M ISK? No, of course not... it costs about 30M ISK worth of minerals to build that Myrmidon, so even though you mined all those minerals yourself, they're not free. You could have sold them on the open market for 30M ISK instead of turning them into a brand new Myrmidon, which means the Myrmidon effectively cost you 31M ISK to build (30M in minerals, 1M for the BPC). The fact is, and no one can dispute it, a BPO owner will always be able to produce a given item for cheaper than someone using invention, both in terms of in-game resources required to build said item and in terms of the real-world time it takes them to do so. If the decision is made to no longer seed tech II BPOs into the game via the lottery that is fine... but you either have to remove the existing BPOs (e.g.: turn them into high-run BPCs) or you have to create an alternative method for bringing new BPOs into the game that isn't chance based. To not do one of these things is the same as CCP basically giving the finger to every industrialist, both present and future, who doesn't already own a tech II BPO. CCP will have created the "haves" and the "have nots", with no way for the "have nots" to ever match the "haves", no matter what they do... that is, in terms of what is supposed to be a game, not fair, not fun, and would, I think, drive away many people from the game. I hope CCP doesn't make such a mistake. Wred

Trishtan DeMore Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:00:00 - [71] OH man, what a ridiculous witch hunt is being done against the t2 bpo owners here. First there was complainment about not being able to build the ships/items themselves and being dependable on the t2 bpo owners: -> CCP gave them invention to create their own BPc Then there was the massive whinage that the lottery would be so unfair: -> Now CCP is about to stop the lottery all in all And now there are even more rivers of tears that there are older people which basically spend 4 years of subscription cash on this one game and own BPOs of items where you can only create BPc of and actually can compete because the margin is high on t2 items. It's not enough, no, never is it enough until we are all equal. What doesn't work in r/l has to work in my game, because I got later in. Solution: How about getting your head in shape and think a little bit. place a pos in a 0.0 system where u can rat and mine. Do a corp effort for 2 - 4 weeks, gather a couple billions and buy your first t2 bpo. or do complexes, or make missions or whatnot. I make 3b/month only using t1 bpo, huh, how is that possible? omgcheathaxploit. If you name using your head exploiting then I am guilty. Regards
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:11:00 - [72] Edited by: Aramendel on 23/02/2007 17:08:32 Originally by: Shadowsword An interface can be more profitable to use than a BPO. It just require a lot more efforts. I do not really think thats a viable argument. Veldspar mining can be more profitable than a t2 BPO. "It just requires a lot more effort." You can only produce so many items over time with a BPO. So anything else which has no fixed maximum can make more profit, be it mining, salvaging, missionrunning or even PvP. Thats a no-brainer. The problem and what makes many t2 BPO "I-wins" is the profit/time. When someone needs to "work" 5 hours to make 100 mil and someone else needs to "work" 5 minutes for that you don't really need to be a genius to see that it essentially creates different "classes" in EVE.
Ascelot Junior Caldari Redneck Revenge	Posted - 2007.02.23 17:51:00 - [73] Bad trolls Bad bears Get back under your rocks and stop trying to change the ****** game with all your whining every 5 mins
All Clear	Posted - 2007.02.23 18:53:00 - [74] i think it's ridiculous that so many players think having a t2 bpo is an 'i win' situation the reasoning (even ccp's) behind and suggestions for fixes don't make much sense either is a player with a t2 ammo bpo getting filthy rich compared to a player with a cerb bpo? absolutely not - the player with the ammo bpo could make a few millions a day if he hassles around in the different markets every day -- meanwhile the cerb bpo owner is making 300m+ profit per ship, with a line-up to buy from him or her this makes the notion of punishing ALL t2 bpo owners for the greed of the few, and it's silly how much profit has a t2 bpo owner made off a print he received last week, compared to someone who got a vagabond bpo years ago? but they should be penalized just the same, right? again, silly it's also ridiculous to see all the players posting 'i own tons of t2 bpos but i'd gladly have them turn into bpcs because.... well, because it's the right thing to do... and i'm just heroically objective like that... erm, yeah' bs, you're transparent in your bitter bias i do own a t2 bpo and i don't think they should be removed - i did a lot of work to get it, and i only received it less than 2 weeks ago -- i think most of you would think it was a great bpo, a real rags-to-riches story in the making... sad truth is that it's neither hac nor hulk, so it's A. harder to sell, and B. doesn't make that much money - almost 2 weeks of solid production and sales, and i've netted a whopping 55m isk i haven't played this game as long as most of my fellow players, but i realized early that i needed to do some catching up - rather than see myself as being at a disadvantage, i saw my friends as being at an advantage... one duly earned -- i set out to catch up in any way i could, i.e. planning, working harder, being ingame more, training smarter, and specializing i just know that there are bitter people out here right now complaining that I'VE got an unfair advantage over them now, even though they started playing the game before me - i bet they never bothered to get an RnD agent (bah! it's all luck!) or even to get more than one to them, i say... you suck you'll always be second rate and probably late for dinner, too you want to get richer than most t2 bpo owners?? get organized and increase the scale of your operations -- get a bs bpo, research it, buy an ft, set your mineral buy orders, build six bs a day and haul them to an appropriate market, sell them at a 25m isk mark up each doing that you'll make more isk than 90% of t2 bpo owners, and it's not even that much work to do... but you won't, will you? yep, that's right - you're just a bunch of whiny defeatists
Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:07:00 - [75] Originally by: Fakespace Pretty much everyone that is saying to NOT remove T2 bpos, own a t2 bpo... Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, doesnt own a t2 bpo... What's your point? ---
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Jinx Barker Lets presume that Widget II will take 5 Mill ISK worth of Datacores or something. Well, then there is nothing stopping a potential inventor from obtaining an agent in their chosen field and buying datacores from the agent at the pre-set RP limit. At the same time, the people with bazziliion RPs will have similar access to the Agent and the datacores, since there is a limit on how many you can get from each agent. There is absolutley no reason why you should be forced to buy your datacores on the market, if you have access to the agent. Unfortunately, those rps and the datacores that you get from them skill have an opportunity cost, the only difference is that it is non-cash. Now this individual could cash in datacores and just sell them on market.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? No, it didn't. Then how are the t2 bpo's I-WIN-FOREVER buttons?? Explain please. Also Oveur was very clear that they will balance the invention stuff further. So I cannot see why the invented blueprints shouldn't be able to compete with the BPO's after a while. Invnetions will always be: 1) more unstable, and instability is bad for markets, and kills investment. Pos operaters will stop operating poses as prices bounce all over. 2) Invention takes more effort. For more effort, people will require more profit (higher prices) to make it worth their time, not to mention the inputs needed to actually get a bpo drop. In the extra time an inventor spends to produce 5 cerberus, a BPO owner could spend npcing or pvping. I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but I actually think invention would be similar in effects to pos-sovereignty on game play. 3) Never be profitable like t2 bpos are. The market will simply compete out any economic profit through invention, regardless of if t2 bpos are left in game.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:29:00 - [78] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Herring it's meant to be a competative game. And therein lies the problem. Once you reach X billion isk, it STOPS being a competative game if you can find someone that does not want their BPO. Honestly. When someone decided to cheat in this game, he gave himself T2 BPOs. (no, I'm not discussing the cheating itself, only pointing out the form it took) If that fact alone does not indicate that T2 BPOs need a serious look, I don't know what else does. I mean, seriously, when someone sits down with the basic intention to play EVE like Duke Nukem with Godmode on, and all he does is give himself some T2 BPOs... There just might be something very wrong with T2 BPOs. The other famous instance of cheating involved a gm spawning himself a faction kitted faction battleship, something more valuable than most T2 bpos. By your logic, things like complexes should be deleted since they give unfair advantages to players who happen to control them.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:34:00 - [79] Originally by: DorXtar Originally by: Annatar Dinfinatly a no go Since release i got a mutch of revamps and nerfs and we all came over them and got a really nice game. Even if the Community isnt that small, nice and overviewable. But thats Natural if a game is good. The t2 BPo conversion into BPC's is in NO WAY Compareable to any other Patch/revamp so far and would for me definatly the reason to stop playing/paying. The result would be only compareable with the Stike of SOE into SWG Community with this Combat revamp patch. But i bet we could Top thier Leaving Numbers if that goes to happen on Tranqulity. The only people that would leave would be the minority of the people with BPOs. That's not a lot of people. The majority of the people in EvE would benefit, and even new players would benefit entering into a leveled playing field. How would anyone benefit by getting rid of t2 bpo's? T2 prices would skyrocket, which is exactly what eve doesn't need.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Illuminaty Even 'bad' T2 BPOs have demi-win markups compared to T1 production. orly? tried to build and then sell a skiff with any type of markup above cost price lately? How about a 75mm railgun 2? Small energy Transfer 2? stop making rediculous statements with no proof behind them. As for: Quote: T2 owners need to be handed a high run copy and enough cash to buy a lot of data cores, and be told: "We've decided that you need to put even a small ammount of effort into staying on top". I'm guessing you have nfi about how the eve economy and market works. You'll quickly discover that most people advocating removal of T2 bpos have EXTREMELY limited understanding of even basic economics. CCP PLEASE before you consider any changes to the market, please hire a trained economist to do it right and achieve your objectives. Please do not follow the community witchhunt to nerf wealthy players because as it stands now, the effects would be very detrimental to the market, and the market is instrumental to eve. I'm sure there is a college in Iceland with an econ department, please go talk to them.

Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:47:00 - [81] Originally by: Illuminaty T2 BPOs are worse than I-WIN buttons. They are I-WIN-FOREVER buttons and everyone knows it. CCP should replace every last T2 BPO with a high run copy, and give a fair market value in isk to the holder. that would be the absolutely best thing to do to stabilize the T2 market. giving ppl a isk printing machine for several years have to end. and to let them keep the BPO's and nobody else have any chance at all in having one is even worse. the odds was way to low before and with everyone else being force to put alot of work in to make T2 stuff and the ones with BPO's not having to do the same will just increase their wealth even more. i hope that CCP has thought this through properly and wont be doing like they have with everything else "throw a half done thing out there and not fix it in years" Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:53:00 - [82] Leave T2 BPOs are they are. (Says a have-not) And keep seeding more T2 BPOs into the game, as they are done now. Although this post now looks like a dbp masterpiece, I'll continue by saying that EVE has always evolved. It doesn't have a static 'baseline'. The 0.0 game didn't used to rely on T2 ships at all, and these days it does. CCP, just accept that times change, and T2 is pretty much essential for playing the 0.0 game. Keep seeding those T2 BPOs into the game, make invention actually worthwhile, and now that you're learnt your lesson you can release T3 using invention and never have a single T3 BPO in-game.
Dessa DesPlains	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:56:00 - [83] Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:01:00 - [84] Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO I agree, and also, last time I checked on invention, I'd be better off just spending those hours ratting.
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO No proof-check No reasonable numbers-check Lack of knowledge of the profitability of most T2 bpos-check mindless flame-check yep it's all here.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Graalum Originally by: Gnulpie I can't hear that any more. What are you talking about! ASCN had lots of t2 bpo's. Did it help them to keep their empire? Yeah but the ppl that killed ASCN or at least one alliance had better help than JUST T2 BPOs When you got THAT kinda help... the BPOs become insignificant looks around the restaurant then look at his mate "I wouldnt be greatly surprised if a little band came in and started playing hums the Star Wars Cantina theme"
Trishtan DeMore Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:46:00 - [87] Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 23/02/2007 20:43:49 Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 23/02/2007 20:43:24 Originally by: Richard Aiel Yeah but the ppl that killed ASCN or at least one alliance had better help than JUST T2 BPOs When you got THAT kinda help... the BPOs become insignificant What a pile of crap. what help did bob have? guns fitted on their ships? weeee
Kari Moltov Amarr The Forsakened Companions	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:50:00 - [88] Edited by: Kari Moltov on 23/02/2007 20:47:02 Originally by: Genericforumalt Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO No proof-check No reasonable numbers-check Lack of knowledge of the profitability of most T2 bpos-check mindless flame-check yep it's all here. QFT I posted in another thread earlier today and someone replied with this, which I think sums up some of the previous posts made above and which made me laugh my b**ks off: Originally by:** Xander XacXorien I would say the maximum is closer to 10+ billion a day for a good T2 BPO. Given research it could be a lot higher. Work it out for a Hulk, I dont know the exact figures but the production cost is something less than 50 million but sells for 550 million plus. I read somewhere you can manufacture 24 a day. 24 x 500 = 12 billion a day. That's a potential of 360 billion a month. Research the BPO and you get better production. I sigh in the general direction of the people who post with ignorance.
RoMUF Minmatar Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:53:00 - [89] Edited by: RoMUF on 23/02/2007 20:50:34 Edited by: RoMUF on 23/02/2007 20:50:07 Is there a date when the bpo lottery stops (when we can put all rp into datacores). Satal's Legion is recruiting. Contact me or Kyranor Rett for questions or join the channel "Satal's Legion"
Fulber	Posted - 2007.02.23 21:01:00 - [90] Edited by: Fulber on 23/02/2007 20:57:26 Originally by: Trishtan DeMore What a pile of crap. what help did bob have? guns fitted on their ships? weeee Free T2 BPOs, and the dev responsible for a lot of the server code telling them that if a node crashes, those in the process of jumping into the system have log-in priority over those already in-system.

Jennifer Meek Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.24 00:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Xander XacXorien I would say the maximum is closer to 10+ billion a day for a good T2 BPO. Given research it could be a lot higher. Work it out for a Hulk, I dont know the exact figures but the production cost is something less than 50 million but sells for 550 million plus. I read somewhere you can manufacture 24 a day. 24 x 500 = 12 billion a day. That's a potential of 360 billion a month. Research the BPO and you get better production. L O L Hulk BPO is 3 billion a week more or less. ---
Frieswithyourmilkshake	Posted - 2007.02.24 01:08:00 - [92] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Originally by: Xander XacXorien I would say the maximum is closer to 10+ billion a day for a good T2 BPO. Given research it could be a lot higher. Work it out for a Hulk, I dont know the exact figures but the production cost is something less than 50 million but sells for 550 million plus. I read somewhere you can manufacture 24 a day. 24 x 500 = 12 billion a day. That's a potential of 360 billion a month. Research the BPO and you get better production. L O L Hulk BPO is 3 billion a week more or less. Please provide proof of this amazing 360b isk per month generating T2 bpo or STFU and GTFO
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.24 01:24:00 - [93] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Originally by: Fakespace Pretty much everyone that is saying to NOT remove T2 bpos, own a t2 bpo... Pretty much everyone that is saying to remove T2 bpos, doesnt own a t2 bpo... What's your point? Well, there are only 2 possible options - either a person argues for a point because of egoistic motives or because it thinks from a neutral viewpoint that it would be best for the game. If "egoistic motives" are the reason for the vast majority it applies to both sides - unless you have an explanation how being lucky (or having multiple research farm accounts) if making one less selfish. So basically almost everyone who argues for BPOs does because he is greedy and almost everyone who argues against them is jealous. In which case any discussion is pretty pointless because almost everyone argues for his own wallet and not for the game and the few neutral people have no impact. Or we have a noticeable amount of people who manage to remain neutral and say what they think it's best. If that is the case and if people would think that BPOs are good we would see almost noone from the BPO holders arguing against BPOs and a very sizeable part of the non BPO holders arguing for BPOs. My impression however is more of the opposite.
Xander XacXorien	Posted - 2007.02.24 01:59:00 - [94] Originally by: Frieswithyourmilkshake Originally by: Jennifer Meek Originally by: Xander XacXorien I would say the maximum is closer to 10+ billion a day for a good T2 BPO. Given research it could be a lot higher. Work it out for a Hulk, I dont know the exact figures but the production cost is something less than 50 million but sells for 550 million plus. I read somewhere you can manufacture 24 a day. 24 x 500 = 12 billion a day. That's a potential of 360 billion a month. Research the BPO and you get better production. Hulk BPO is 3 billion a week more or less. Please provide proof of this amazing 360b isk per month generating T2 bpo or STFU and GTFO As I stated in my post I did not check the figures but used a previous post to demonstrate. The figure on an unreserached BPO is some around 6.5 billion a week or about 17 billion a month on an unresearched BPO. I don't see any missioners making anywhere near that amount as was quoted or infact anywhere near that amount. Otherwise the allainces would be in there doing nothing but missions. T2 BPO should go,,, bye bye to the free ride in 0.0 STFU and GTFO - how sad and pathetic.
Frieswithyourmilkshake	Posted - 2007.02.24 09:00:00 - [95] Originally by: Xander XacXorien As I stated in my post I did not check the figures but used a previous post to demonstrate. The figure on an unreserached BPO is some around 6.5 billion a week or about 17 billion a month on an unresearched BPO. You've just done it again - which bpo is this? perhaps an expanded cargo 2 bpo on the first day they were released? A few posts above it stated a hulk bpo producing 1 ship per day may turn 3b a week. Even cap recharger 2 bpos now earn less than 2b a week. Any how do you get 17b per month if there is a bpo with the potential to earn you 6.5b a week? I suggest to you if a bpo can earn you 6.5b (using your number) in a week then you should be able to turn 26b a month. The majority of t2 bpos are not huge isk printers, there have been plenty of threads on invention detailing the one or 2 bpos able to make large profits form. I suggest to you perhaps using numbers plucked from nowhere with no supporting evidence = sad and pathetic Most t2 bpo information is accessable from the market how about next time perfor you post completely irrelevant information you actually make an effort to get a clue.
Jenn Atreides	Posted - 2007.02.24 09:35:00 - [96] I see this response as a very kneejerk reaction. So one dev got caught big deal, We are not talking about enuf interfence to totally destroy the economy. But instead what we are talking about is the loss of faith in the ottery system. Does anyone really think that is new. People have been complaining about the lottery system for 4 years but CCP did nothing. I have been researching Starship RP for a loing time and have never had an offer while I guy in my corp has had like 3 major offers inreasing his personal isk value to the neighbourhood of about 100bisk, which instead of being jealous I am happy for him. So as I said this is a kneejerk reaction aimed at damage control. They want nothing to do with fixing this but they have to do something and this is a simpler means to save face then anything else. What should have happened all along was the research agents should have been rewarding missioners with BPC's much the same as mission offers from other agent types. But they didn't so now there is 2 classes in eve. I have been playing for over 2.5 years and I have seen ccp do everything to make the long term player happy and screw about teh new player. This is just another example of pandering to their long term friends. It is a fact that Dev's play in the game and in the alliances etc. They are human and it is human after all to become friends with people you spend time with. So they are friends with the people that own the BPO's ergo it follows that nothing will be done about the BPO's that exist. IN fact this is just a ploy to increase the value of their friends BPO's to withering heights. So the point is that there is no way that they can change to lottery to make it more fair without screwing us or screwing their friends. Either all BPO's have to be changed into limited run BPC's and the BPO holders haev to suck it up or they have to continue down the same path and make it so that the lottery is much more transparent IE: publish the names of the winners and then remove them from the lottery pool completely by removing all their RP's etc. This is CCP's mess and there is no real way to fix it, so at least make it fair. I hope my middle of the night rambling makes sence
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2007.02.24 09:54:00 - [97] Originally by: KHEN T2 BPOs should be simply removed from EVE with no compensation for the holders. Don't whine you made enough profits from these and EVE got wicked enough by that (hmm, faction ships with officer mods in pvp, renewed immediately if destroyed ). The license to print isks must stop now. that will be good to limit the inflation. Change that to "Don't whine I made enough profits from these". On the other hand I have got my first T2 BPO a week ago, and I have spent 6 months of training time on 3 characters to get there. I count to profit from it for a reasonable amount of time before it turn to dust. What most of the "destroy the BPO" people forget is that there are persons getting now the BPO for whick they worked, and they are aspecting a fair return for the work involved. Getting in the lottery is as skill intensive as learning to pilot capitals, currently in the science field I have about 4,5 millions SP, without counting the "support" SP spent in industry and social to build the stuff and rise the standing with the R&D corporation. So I want at least a return from my investment, and a 1000 runs Ammo BPC it is not that.
Jenn Atreides	Posted - 2007.02.24 10:00:00 - [98] Hey Shayla, are you my long lost twin sister? HAHA Look at portraits :):):) Jenn
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2007.02.24 10:26:00 - [99] True , and we both work on research I suppose. We should meet and share a quafe ultra.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2007.02.24 10:38:00 - [100] An option I feel can be more fair than changing the current existing T" BPO to BPC could be putting them on sale. Something like the hinted system for the LP store. You go to the R&D agent, look the list of T2 blueprint available from that agent and buy the ones you are interested in. The RP you have accumulated give a discount to the BPO price and with the standing you have put a cap to the best BPO you can buy. You have a bad standing with the Amarr R&D corporations but for some reason you absolutly want to get some Amarr ship, only way to go is invention. You are the belowed milk brother of the Corporation CEO, with 10,00 standing and are ready to cash 100.000 RP, you get a T2 BC at a price like 2x a standard BC BPO (RP and ISK cost are very random examples). for lesser RP costs you will get the other tools for invention and construction.

Illuminaty	Posted - 2007.02.25 01:07:00 - [101] T2 BPO owners should be compensated at fair market values when their BPOs are converted into high run BPCs. Going with a 100% carebear solution is easiest, as some people can't accept that if they can't afford to lose it, they shouldn't have invested in it. If T2 BPOs are not I-WIN buttons, then this should not screw over the BPO holders, since they are given time (high run BPC), and resources to shift their industry over to the new game mechanics. If T2 BPOs are I-WIN buttons, then too bad. You were getting over and you damn well knew it. Nobody should be allowed to cash their wallet out and get a free ride until the servers shut down. Anyone with a calculator and access to Jita knows that most of the owners of decent BPOs are simply compulsive liars about their profitablity.
Mentor Grange Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.25 01:28:00 - [102] CCP should do itself a favor, and before they make this decision, they should hire an actual economist to model the economy and make some recommendations. Economists cost less than computer scientists, and they could probably keep one employed full time looking after their economy. As with real economies, there are unintended consequences of nearly every action, but at least a professional should be able to anticipate most of them, allowing decision makers to mitigate the worst of them and choose between the rest. Mentor
MrPops Caldari Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.25 01:40:00 - [103] Originally by: Genericforumalt Originally by: Dessa DesPlains Whats not to understand about economics? You have an ISK printer. In the time it take to invent 25 pieces of a T2 item, a bpo holder can churn out 1000. And at a better material level. Doesn't cost a bpo holder datacores. Or invention slots. Or decryptors. Yah, my lack of understand of economics must be preventing me from seeing the massive profit I will invent. TMO No proof-check No reasonable numbers-check Lack of knowledge of the profitability of most T2 bpos-check mindless flame-check yep it's all here. QFT FTW! All these people are special magicians, they have the ability to pull facts, statistics, and general information with extreme certainty and accuracy out of their rear. They are so special.
TorquePSA Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 09:54:00 - [104] Wait, I have a T2 BPO. Just got it a couple weeks ago. I'm not rich... WTF. So 3 years to get 1 BPO and you all just want to take it away before I can make 1 billion let alone "x" billion. I know I'm not down with that. If it were to vanish, I'm sure I wouldn't be far behind. Not griping, just stating what I'm sure would happen. Also, some have pointed this out, but not all T2 BPO are mega-high profit items. The one I have is an OK mod, but the markup is probably less than any of you out there wearing designer name clothes paid when you bought that shirt you are wearing. For sure some will make you very rich very quick, but probably the majority of them just make good money but not exorbitant. If you want to see prices soar, get 1/3 of the current T2 producers to get fed up and leave without selling their backstock or producing anything further. Also, since they are the rich evil T2 goons, that would be a sizable chunk of isk taken out of the general EVE economy as well. Now, I only had 1 economics class in college, but I'm pretty sure that would have a fairly negative impact.
Allen Deckard Gallente WTB Supplies	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:34:00 - [105] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/02/2007 21:10:46 true..but yeah, I rather would like to see an Research point store like thing... 50000000 RP for a T2 crusier BPO or something like that.. edit: (okay, maybe too far, just found out that with 1 agent, 50000000 RP takes 342 years to accumulate....maybe 100000 RPs.. which is about a year of running one mission for your R&D (can only do 1 a day anyways). worth of RP ) Actually I like the first number you gave. BUT Add to it the ability to sell your rp's to another player. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
Illuminaty	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:36:00 - [106] Originally by: TorquePSA Edited by: TorquePSA on 25/02/2007 09:57:44 Wait, I have a T2 BPO. Just got it a couple weeks ago. I'm not rich... WTF. So 3 years to get 1 BPO and you all just want to take it away before I can make 1 billion let alone "x" billion. I know I'm not down with that. If it were to vanish, I'm sure I wouldn't be far behind. Not griping, just stating what I'm sure would happen. Also, some have pointed this out, but not all T2 BPO are mega-high profit items. The one I have is an OK mod, but the markup is probably less than any of you out there wearing designer name clothes paid when you bought that shirt you are wearing. For sure some will make you very rich very quick, but probably the majority of them just make good money but not exorbitant. Oh, and they build quite slow as well. I just have a normal ship mod BPO and I can only produce 300 a month with it running non-stop, so I don't know where this 1000 crap comes from that would take me 3 1/2 months to produce 1000 units. If you want to see prices soar, get 1/3 of the current T2 producers to get fed up and leave without selling their backstock or producing anything further. Also, since they are the rich evil T2 goons, that would be a sizable chunk of isk taken out of the general EVE economy as well. Now, I only had 1 economics class in college, but I'm pretty sure that would have a fairly negative impact. And I only had one political science class in college, but I'm pretty sure that is FUD. - I don't see many people saying that T2 BPOs should be deleted and no compensation given in there place. - I don't find it likely that anyone who holds a number of T2 BPOs is going to quit this game even if they knew the next patch was going to give them cancer. What I DO see people saying is that the T2 lottery was a poorly designed game mechanic, and that with a little fine tuning and love, invention will be a better game mechanic. I see people saying that as long as the fruits of the T2 lottery are still in the game, it won't be a full migration to the better game mechanic. I don't think anyone is agianst the idea that money makes money if you put it to work properly. I think people are agianst the idea that once you get enough money, you can buy an invulnerable isk printing machine that will last until the server shuts down.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.25 14:56:00 - [107] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 25/02/2007 14:53:41 Originally by: Haffrage I can't tell who's saying what in this post. You do know about these things called quote tags, right? Basicly, he's upset because in the end, we're going to have a group of people with T2 BPOs, and everyone else will have to rely on a much more expensive invention process that will never compete on the same level of a BPO. I honestly see no reason whatsoever for us to be unable to try and make a bad ME/PE T2 BPO, even if you have to risk losing all the items in the process. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:14:00 - [108] I do like the idea of invention. But It is absolutely stupid that they won't level the playing field. I'd just declare that within one year all T2 BPO's will become long run BPC's Most T2 BPO prices are based on their value for one year. If they don't take out the BPO's their game is still broken. It gives potential players yet another reason to NOT start playing Eve. Personally, if they leave T2 BPO's. Make them work for their money printer. Require them to be built in <0.4 POS's Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:32:00 - [109] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:34:44 Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:32:27 Originally by: Kruugore If they don't take out the BPO's their game is still broken. It gives potential players yet another reason to NOT start playing Eve. It also gives existing players a reason to quit playing. I've run daily R&D missions on several characters almost every single fcking day for years now, and have received 1 BPO in return. I'd be absolutely gutted if CCP took the BPO away that I've gained with a lot of hard work and perseverance. If we're counting the amount of work, let's say 3 hours a day on average just for bettering my chances in the lottery. Multiply that by couple of years worth of days, and you get over 2100 hours* of work put into getting a single BPO. Do you call that "just sitting still and waiting for a BPO to drop for no work at all?" If they go there and remove BPOs, they might as well start taking other assets away from people completely randomly. One titan there, one outpost there, maybe a few POS here and there. I'm not saying the lottery is right, but there's still those of us out there who spend hours every single day trying to better our probabilities in it. For those of you who say building T2 means amazing profits and no work at all, you should give it a shot. There's a whole chain of logistics involved, and profit margins on a lot of T2 prints are very small apart from a couple of exceptions such as Hulk.
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 17:32:00 - [110] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:41:47 Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:37:14 Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:36:07 Originally by: Kruugore If they don't take out the BPO's their game is still broken. It gives potential players yet another reason to NOT start playing Eve. It also gives existing players a reason to quit playing. I've run daily R&D missions on several characters almost every single fcking day for years now, and have received 1 BPO in return. I'd be absolutely gutted if CCP took the BPO away that I've gained with a lot of hard work and perseverance. If we're counting the amount of work, let's say 3 hours a day on average just for bettering my chances in the lottery. Multiply that by couple of years worth of days, and you get over 2100 hours* of work put into getting a single BPO, with no guarantee that you're ever actually going to get anything. Do you call that "just sitting still and waiting for a BPO to drop for no work at all?" If they go there and remove BPOs, they might as well start taking other assets away from people completely randomly. One titan there, one outpost there, maybe a few POS here and there. I'm not saying the lottery is totally right, but there's still those of us out there who spend hours every single day trying to better our probabilities in it. For those of you who say building T2 means amazing profits and no work at all, you should give it a shot. There's a whole chain of logistics involved, and profit margins on a lot of T2 prints are very small apart from a couple of exceptions such as Hulk. Sorry to sound insensitive, but you are being selfish. What is the greatest good here? To protect the interest of maybe 200 players or 200,000 players? If you think of it in that light the answer is fairly obvious. Just in case the answer does somehow elude you, its in 99.9% of the playerbase's best interest to do away with T2 BPOs. Anyway you will still be far ahead of everyone else given the amount of rp you should still have stored up. What you are asking for is an insurmountable advantage for everyone who has been playing the game for a while, this is not in the spirit of EvE. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."

Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:28:00 - [111] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 18:30:39 What I don't see is, why do BPOs have to be completely taken out? Why can't CCP just distribute more BPOs via invention or seed them on the market/agents instead of punishing the players who've worked the horribly boring R&D mission grind for years? There's already been several ideas about how BPOs could be bought for RP from agents instead of using the lottery. Is the only solution to slap some old players on the wrist, basically destroying everything they've worked for for their whole Eve lives? I'm not being any more selfish than anyone else. I'm protecting an asset I worked extremely hard to get. If CCP suddenly decided "right, let's delete all faction-kitted ravens from mission runners", that decision would be fairly similar to deleting T2 BPOs. Some people (not all by any means) put in a lot of work to get their assets or income-generating tools, and you can't just take those away. To answer the previous post, the greatest good would be to make BPOs more accessible to everyone via market/agents, and NOT take them away from those of us who have them. If everyone can work to get a BPO via some new system, what harm does it do it the players who got theirs from lottery get to keep them?
Denrace Amarr JEM Industries	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:34:00 - [112] Edited by: Denrace on 25/02/2007 18:31:36 Edited by: Denrace on 25/02/2007 18:30:50 Originally by: Jennifer Meek What I don't want is CCP abnormally taking away what I worked for. Getting rich of a decent T2 BPO (like an ISK printing HAC or an expanded cargo II) is about as easy as stepping on kittens. There is no "work" for something like that. Just complete luck. Solution: TII BPO's available from NPCs at high prices, and roll on T3. Easy, eh? Den ________________________________________ Forum Signatures for just 10Million ISK Just EVEMail me a request ☺
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:43:00 - [113] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 18:41:59 Originally by: Denrace There is no "work" for something like that. Just complete luck. So when does mission running not count as work? It's as much of a grind as anything out there. Try putting a few thousand hours into it before you say it's COMPLETE luck.
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:12:00 - [114] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 18:41:59 Originally by: Denrace There is no "work" for something like that. Just complete luck. So when does mission running not count as work? It's as much of a grind as anything out there. Try putting a few thousand hours into it before you say it's COMPLETE luck. Easy, mission running has a set amount of isk you get back for effort in just about every time guaranteed. You make 20 or so mil isk per hour doing lvl 4 combat missions. Effort in = reward every time. R&D agents require you to just grind standings (corp and faction) and a few skills, then wait. You can do what equates to a 3 minute mission (maybe 5) to double that per agent per day. Then you wait to get lucky. Effort in does not necessarily equal reward. If you truly spent anything more than 5 minutes per agent (more like 30 secs) per day then you are not very good at it. I would be fine with T2 BPOs being available for like 160k RP or something. Lets assume you can get at max 200 rp per day per agent with a max of 6 agents. This means you would need at a minimum 130 days (assuming you could pool 6 agents' worth of RP into an "RP wallet") of doing research missions. That is more than reasonable. Of course you would change the rps/day and the rps needed for a BPO based upon the field multiplier. I still stand by my argument that they can change all T2 BPOs in-game to BPCs if they feel its a good idea because it would only effect 0.1% of the game. The interest of whats good for the game far outweighs what is good for a minuet percentage of the playbase. Think about it from CCP's point of view. Would allowing more people to participate in higher level production and reducing the costs of T2 items increase or decrease the playerbase and/or make the playerbase as a whole happier? I think in those terms the answer is quite clear. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:16:00 - [115] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:14:07 Originally by: MrDisposable R&D agents require you to just grind standings (corp and faction) and a few skills, then wait. You can do what equates to a 3 minute mission (maybe 5) to double that per agent per day. Then you wait to get lucky. Effort in does not necessarily equal reward. If you truly spent anything more than 5 minutes per agent (more like 30 secs) per day then you are not very good at it. Really, how do you travel from one end of the universe to the other in 5 minutes? Some of my agents are deep into low sec, and I do several hundred jumps each day to run the missions for all my agents. You don't maximize the RP by just sitting in 1 station in handing the agent trit. Try running missions just for 12 agents every day for a week, then post again and let me know if you did all that in 5 minutes. Just look at distances between locations such as Reisen and Bapraya to get a clue of what sort of distances we're talking about. Going to Bapraya for example means flying through pirate-infested territory in an indy once a day.
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:25:00 - [116] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:14:07 Originally by: MrDisposable R&D agents require you to just grind standings (corp and faction) and a few skills, then wait. You can do what equates to a 3 minute mission (maybe 5) to double that per agent per day. Then you wait to get lucky. Effort in does not necessarily equal reward. If you truly spent anything more than 5 minutes per agent (more like 30 secs) per day then you are not very good at it. Really, how do you travel from one end of the universe to the other in 5 minutes? Some of my agents are deep into low sec, and I do several hundred jumps each day to run the missions for all my agents. You don't maximize the RP by just sitting in 1 station in handing the agent trit. Try running missions just for 12 agents every day for a week, then post again and let me know if you did all that in 5 minutes. Just look at distances between locations such as Reisen and Bapraya to get a clue of what sort of distances we're talking about. Going to Bapraya for example means flying through pirate-infested territory in an indy once a day. No your logic is flawed. You are talking about using multiple characters when you should be arguing based upon one character. Most of the time all an agent whats is trit, 8100 trit... that means a one time supply of 1 mil trit to a station will tide you over for quite some time. Courier missions can be done in a interceptor most times, and of course if you are traveling to the agent you should be using an interceptor anyway. Leave a hauler per agent (whats that gonna cost 1 mil isk?) and get a jump clone. most of your R&D agents should all be located within a few jumps and if you really do have any that are 20 jumps or whatever away (unlikely) then jump clone to it. Take however long you spend on agents and divide it by 2, thats what it is for one character to do it. Then if you optimize yourself it should take you maybe 1 hour per day. To claim otherwise just shows your trying to protect your own interest at the cost of everyone else's. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:30:00 - [117] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:33:28 You can only clone jump once a day max. Talking to agent remotely doesn't work either, you have to fly to the agent in question to do the daily mission. Even done in an interceptor with pirate implants on, 20+ trips still take you a lot of time back and forth, and is considered very much active playing. If you want the best LV4 agents, you just don't find them in 1 constellation. They're scattered around space, and probably this has been done on purpose to make travel distances and times longer. Oh, and why is talking about multiple characters flawed logic? I'm trying to cover as many different corps/agents as possible, so naturally I do different daily missions for different agents on each account. There's nothing flawed with that logic. The less duplicates, the better the chances of success. All in all, it takes about 3 hours every day to do the missions. Do I really have to provide fraps of this for you?
Acheron Cyc Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:43:00 - [118] The quick solution to the question of the OP is: Get Dev or a GM into your corp. ------------------------------------------ "To do something right it must be done twice. The first time instructs the second." Simon Bolivar.
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:28:21 You can only clone jump once a day max. Talking to agent remotely doesn't work either, you have to fly to the agent in question to do the daily mission. Even done in an interceptor with pirate implants on, 20+ trips still take you a lot of time back and forth, and is considered very much active playing. If you want the best LV4 agents, you just don't find them in 1 constellation. They're scattered around space, and probably this has been done on purpose to make travel distances and times longer. yes once per day... this means that at the end of your run of local agents (all within a few jumps) you jump clone to the other cluster of agents. The next day you complete your cluster and jump clone back. 20+ trips is so exaggerated its not funny. In an interceptor you can cover 1 jump per minute (actually faster but whatever) and the average courier mission is 4 jumps. thats 4 minutes for 1 mission. Lets say that 3 of your agents give courier mission and three give trit request. you will spend approx 12 minutes doing courier missions and that will leave you with 48 jumps (48 minutes) to travel between the rest of your agents; more than ample time. If you choose to use autopilot your just wasting time. BTW the longest I have had to travel between 2 lvl 4 R&D agents is 12 jumps. The shortest would be in the same system. Basically I do what you are talking about and you are not gonna be able to fool me. As to your thousands of hours claim. Lets say 2 hours per day is spent (I just doubled your amount of time btw) on R&D running. too get to the actual thousand mark would take 500 days, thousands would take in excess of 1000 days. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:56:00 - [120] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:56:21 OK, if you want number, here you go. Real systems, route goes through low secs, tweak the waypoints any way you want. It's one of the routes I take every day on one of my characters, all the agents are very good quality: aydoteaux - bapraya - ghesis - reisen - atlulle That's 100 jumps no matter how you twist it, and there's certainly no "cluster" with it anywhere. 1 minute per jump means 100 minutes per day excluding mission times. If you got an idea how to reach all of those locations in 20 jumps max like you said, I'm all ears here. My point is, doing R&D the active way is every bit as much playing the game actively as anything else. If you want the best quality agents out there, you work for it, but punishing people for choosing to work in game like this is just plain wrong.

Dendrin Koljn Minmatar Elite United Corp	Posted - 2007.02.25 20:19:00 - [121] Managed to make it thru the whole post, quite quick as most is 'nerf it' or 'don't nerf it' Anywho, I don't own a T2 BPO, I don't do exploration, I don't do invention. I'm slowly climbing the production ladder (what i can build) So starting from scratch my choices will be - if BPO's arn't 'nerfed' 1. Buy the T2 item....same as now 2. Buy the T2 BPO.....same as now 3. Win a BPO..........not anymore 4. Do invention.......Costs more than buying the T2 item 5. do exploration to make (4) cheaper....takes too long and it's still cheaper to buy the T2 item. so in the end, as (3),(4), and (5) are not worth it / gone, everything is pretty much gonna be the same as it is now. If BPO's are 'nerfed' then costs across the board go up and some manufacturers find that the technology has moved on and the BPO's they did have are out of date (converted to max run bpc's). The first option seems to be an utter waste of time developing invention, but at least everyone will allready know what to moan about. The second option would open the market to 'what was new and copyrighted', but is now 'out of copyright', and therefore availiable to all. As the costs are higher then prices are bound to rise as well, so at least the moans about how expensive things are will continue. T2 BPO owners - if you wanna make a statement to the rest of us....stop selling T2 stuff for a month - then just see how much your'll be able to charge for your stuff. (course never happen because against popular belief - there's flippin 1000's of them) On a slightly separate note...some BPO's should NEVER have been seeded in the first place, HULKS especially, not because of the monopoly - due to the monopoly ORE have over barges...NO ONE else should be able to produce them except ORE.
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 20:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 19:56:21 OK, if you want number, here you go. Real systems, route goes through low secs, tweak the waypoints any way you want. It's one of the routes I take every day on one of my characters, all the agents are very good quality: aydoteaux - bapraya - ghesis - reisen - atlulle That's 100 jumps no matter how you twist it, and there's certainly no "cluster" with it anywhere. 1 minute per jump means 100 minutes per day excluding mission times. If you got an idea how to reach all of those locations in 20 jumps max like you said, I'm all ears here. My point is, doing R&D the active way is every bit as much playing the game actively as anything else. If you want the best quality agents out there, you work for it, but punishing people for choosing to work in game like this is just plain wrong. thats not 100 jumps... according to my hastely thrown together flight plan it is 73 jumps and I am sure you can cut it down further. If you place a jump clone in Bapraya all of the sudden your down to 42 jumps. If you are in a ceptor low-sec is no more dangerous than high-sec. Of course why you are using an agent all the way out in Bap is questionable at best given its a lvl 3 Q13 agent given that there is a lvl 4 Q0 which offers the same exact fields for more RP per day in Akora. Aydoteaux has nothing but lower level agents (best being lvl 3 quality 0) and the mere fact that you claim to want to diversify and stick to the same type of agents when better quality more diverse agents are available outside of creo-don within the gallente federation gives me the impression you are lying or just not very good at what you do. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
Sophia Germain Gallente Fluxion	Posted - 2007.02.25 20:32:00 - [123] Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 20:31:25 As I said already, this is only 1 of the route. I have 3 characters total with maxed out r&d agent counts. There's no point about nitpicking this anymore though, I'm sure you can agree running r&d in large scale isn't "passive playing" if you want to maximize your probabilities. You do need to travel and take risks, and are never guaranteed to get anything in return. Oh and I do consider my operations a partial success already for getting a BPO, but I'm not sure I would have got it by just sitting still. Mr.Disposable, next time you need to get personal and start to judge my abilities in playing the game or how good I am, at least do me the courtesy and post with your main instead of using a newbie forum alt. I doubt the character you're posting with is your real char.
All Clear	Posted - 2007.02.25 20:50:00 - [124] Originally by: MrDisposable Sorry to sound insensitive, but you are being selfish. What is the greatest good here? To protect the interest of maybe 200 players or 200,000 players? If you think of it in that light the answer is fairly obvious. Just in case the answer does somehow elude you, its in 99.9% of the playerbase's best interest to do away with T2 BPOs. Anyway you will still be far ahead of everyone else given the amount of rp you should still have stored up. What you are asking for is an insurmountable advantage for everyone who has been playing the game for a while, this is not in the spirit of EvE. i think it's important to think about why we have this issue in the first place is it because the lottery has been unfair all along? i don't think so was this entire kerfuffle created by ccp's deciding that 'to gain back the playerbase's trust, we're going to stop the lottery'? yes, their choosing to stop the lottery is what makes players who haven't yet won a t2 bpo feel disenfranchised, leading to the current vitriolic outcry sure, there are a slight few hulk, hac, and covert cloak bpo owners whose greed has earned them our rightful indignation, but most t2 bpo owners provide a valuable service to the playerbase in providing t2 gear at, arguably, fair prices stopping the lottery is silly and unnecessary (and if you're reading this ccp... in me it doesn't restore any of the trust you've recently lost), and when you, the disenfranchised, respond understandably with the demand that all t2 bpos be stripped from their owners if you no longer have a chance of winning one, what you're really doing is criticizing the result of of a as-yet hypothetical scenario put forward by ccp and cuing a new gripe from that, instead of booing the scenario itself -- as well, you'd be collectively shooting yourselves in the foot in the form of reduced supply and higher prices in the event that the currently seeded t2 bpos were removed from the game, even with invention boosted you mentioned the greatest good and i think that it's interesting to point out that titans aren't in the best interest of 99.9% of the playerbase - very, very, very few of us will ever fly one or build one, and what they offer to us is largely an anticlimactic lightshow and a dead t2-fitted bs in a situation bereft of practically any personal enjoyment... just a pod ride home and some memories i guess you'll respond that at least players have a chance to someday own and fly a titan (yeah, you wish), while if ccp stops the lottery no one will ever again have the chance to win a t2 bpo well, i guess you could save up your money and buy a titan, but for that amount of isk you could buy one of the best t2 ship bpos, too then you'll say that you won't be able to afford a t2 bpo because they'll now be worth trillions of isk since the removal of the lottery - but the fact is that changes to invention will only continue to diminish the value of t2 bpo originals, and the emergence of t3 gear will relegate their value to something approaching that which we see in t1 bpo originals today imho, my suggestion is that we refocus our thoughts on 1. why ccp feels that ending the lottery is in the best interests of the game, and 2. do we really feel any sense of regained trust towards ccp through their plan to end the lottery for my 2 cents, ccp, increase the t2 bpo seeding for the most exorbitantly priced t2 gear, keep the lottery, restore trust by dropping every dev's characters to 1m skillpoints and banning them from playing in all but the smallest corps/alliances, and introduce t3 through invention only and if the lottery were to be kept, i'd expect every single complainant on these many threads to start getting rnd agents and enter the lottery
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:01:00 - [125] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 20:31:25 As I said already, this is only 1 of the route. I have 3 characters total with maxed out r&d agent counts. There's no point about nitpicking this anymore though, I'm sure you can agree running r&d in large scale isn't "passive playing" if you want to maximize your probabilities. You do need to travel and take risks, and are never guaranteed to get anything in return. Oh and I do consider my operations a partial success already for getting a BPO, but I'm not sure I would have got it by just sitting still. Mr.Disposable, next time you need to get personal and start to judge my abilities in playing the game or how good I am, at least do me the courtesy and post with your main instead of using a newbie forum alt. I doubt the character you're posting with is your real char. If the shoe fits wear it. Calling into question a nearly 7 month old character or whatever does not lessen what I say. If It is the truth it is the truth. I just pointed out how your route is not 100 jumps, that you use inferior agents and proposed a better solution to maximize you efficiency, all in 5 minutes of research. The fact that you got a BPO does not indicate your "skill" as a player. You won a lottery. Others have put in more effort for much less indicating a broken system. Others have admited to winning a BPO with a mere 3700 rps. EvE has been described as a game designed not to allow older players an insurmountable advantage to younger ones. The T2 lottery and BPOs is exactly that. After this round of BPO drops it will change, possibly to not having any more BPOs issued, this could potentially hurt anyone who decides to join up from this point forward. "Want a T2 BPO? Shoulda joined the game 3 years ago when you had a chance." By all means I think the amount of effort you have put into R&D should have been rewarded by now, guaranteed. This should be the same for everyone. I think you should be able to buy BPOs in exchange for a set number of RPs or all BPOs should be changed into BPCs and the playing field leveled. I ask for equality. My main problem with what you are saying is that you are purposely misleading people on how hard R&D is and the skill it takes. Also that either a few have gotten too great of rewards or that many have been shafted. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
MrDisposable Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:14:00 - [126] Edited by: MrDisposable on 25/02/2007 21:13:12 To All clear: I appreciate the effort to make this thread more constructive. Titans are supposed to be totally cost-ineffective. They are cost effective currently. The DD is what makes them so. Right now its pretty bad with one ship being able to wipe out or seriously hinder 200 others, lets just wait until two or three are brought to the same battlefield. If they were to remove remote DD operation and half the destructive power of it I would be happy. They are alliance tools and icons totally different from T2 BPOs. Increasing the efficiency of invention I wager would have a much greater impact on the supply side than changing the BPOs to BPCs. 1 BPO spitting out 10 ships per day is not equal to 100 BPCs spitting out 300 ships a day. Also like I have said many times T2 BPOs present an insurmountable advantage. Alliance A owns at least 1 of every T2 BPO Alliance B owns a few T2 BPOs. Alliance A = Alliance B in all other things. As a result alliance A has an insurmountable advantage over alliance B. Worse yet if alliance B wants to compete on the same level as alliance A it will need to purchase T2 ships/items indirectly giving alliance A another advantage. I think thats pretty simple. ______________ BoB Alts "This isn't about Dev misconduct.... ban the Ctrl+q'rs! They are the real problem behind it ALL!!!!!" "Devs stole BPOs for the good of eve."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:01:00 - [127] Originally by: Sophia Germain Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:41:47 Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:37:14 Edited by: Sophia Germain on 25/02/2007 15:36:07 Originally by: Kruugore If they don't take out the BPO's their game is still broken. It gives potential players yet another reason to NOT start playing Eve. It also gives existing players a reason to quit playing. I've run daily R&D missions on several characters almost every single fcking day for years now, and have received 1 BPO in return. I'd be absolutely gutted if CCP took the BPO away that I've gained with a lot of hard work and perseverance. If we're counting the amount of work, let's say 3 hours a day on average just for bettering my chances in the lottery. Multiply that by couple of years worth of days, and you get over 2100 hours* of work put into getting a single BPO, with no guarantee that you're ever actually going to get anything. Do you call that "just sitting still and waiting for a BPO to drop for no work at all?" If they go there and remove BPOs, they might as well start taking other assets away from people completely randomly. One titan there, one outpost there, maybe a few POS here and there. I'm not saying the lottery is totally right, but there's still those of us out there who spend hours every single day trying to better our probabilities in it. For those of you who say building T2 means amazing profits and no work at all, you should give it a shot. There's a whole chain of logistics involved, and profit margins on a lot of T2 prints are very small apart from a couple of exceptions such as Hulk. So what about those of us who have put hundreds/thousands of hours MORE into missions than you, and are not given the ability to win an ISK printer? Invention needs to allow the creation of -me/-pe BPOs for T2 items. Make it risk losing all items involved, make it take extra items, I don't care, but ffs, make it happen. Someone who relies on invention is never going to be a threat to the fountain of ISK a BPO brings in. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.


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