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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
44
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Posted - 2016.07.10 15:38:09 -
[31] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:A dread that does 10% more damage and costs 10% more than a normal dread will replace every dread in the game.
Why use a Moros when you leaving 10% damage on the table for a mere 200million isk? There is no trade off, it becomes a must have dread.
While the price is very high its at the level where Alliances have to decide if its worth bringing into combat for its cost.
Or, people swimming in c5/c6 magnetar isk can up their damage even more.
Also, I would guess that if one of these appeared in a fleet it would get primaried automatically, quite an advantage if it can abosrb the damage.
To be clear I am not disputing the price AT ALL, I am disputing the arbitrary material build cost, that does not have to be so high, it's a problem of logistics, not a problem of price. If someone wants to fly a huge shiny they can do, but the price of this item should be controlled by BPC scarcity, not material build cost, I will keep reiterating this until people take in onboard and stop misfiring with responses.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
44
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Posted - 2016.07.10 15:39:46 -
[32] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:DeODokktor wrote:Zanar Skwigelf wrote:A dread that does 10% more damage and costs 10% more than a normal dread will replace every dread in the game.
Why use a Moros when you leaving 10% damage on the table for a mere 200million isk? There is no trade off, it becomes a must have dread.
While the price is very high its at the level where Alliances have to decide if its worth bringing into combat for its cost.
Or, people swimming in c5/c6 magnetar isk can up their damage even more.
Also, I would guess that if one of these appeared in a fleet it would get primaried automatically, quite an advantage if it can abosrb the damage.
Instead of buying this ONE dread, you could purchase 25 dreads, what will bring more power? There is not going to be enough of these in game to have a whole fleet of them, all it is going to be is something a lot of people will be willing to throw isk at to see destroyed. The other team could throw 20 dreads at your one dread, if they kill you then they have the obvious "isk" win. Quality vs. Quantity. There are situations where you don't want 25 dreads, or if you are going thru a wormhole chain can't bring 25 dreads.
the material build cost is 20 dreads, 20 time the mass of materials, yet the finished product is 1/20th the mass of the parts, this makes no sense at all. |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
68
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Posted - 2016.07.10 15:42:02 -
[33] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:DeODokktor wrote:Zanar Skwigelf wrote:A dread that does 10% more damage and costs 10% more than a normal dread will replace every dread in the game.
Why use a Moros when you leaving 10% damage on the table for a mere 200million isk? There is no trade off, it becomes a must have dread.
While the price is very high its at the level where Alliances have to decide if its worth bringing into combat for its cost.
Or, people swimming in c5/c6 magnetar isk can up their damage even more.
Also, I would guess that if one of these appeared in a fleet it would get primaried automatically, quite an advantage if it can abosrb the damage.
Instead of buying this ONE dread, you could purchase 25 dreads, what will bring more power? There is not going to be enough of these in game to have a whole fleet of them, all it is going to be is something a lot of people will be willing to throw isk at to see destroyed. The other team could throw 20 dreads at your one dread, if they kill you then they have the obvious "isk" win. Quality vs. Quantity. There are situations where you don't want 25 dreads, or if you are going thru a wormhole chain can't bring 25 dreads.
Yea, But do you think someone is going to take a 50bn isk dread through a WH by itself?... While I think we will see a few players who don't mind throwing this type of isk around, it's not going to be that many, probably far less than the number of bpc's that we will see in game!
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Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries Exiliar Syndicate
192
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Posted - 2016.07.10 17:46:59 -
[34] - Quote
The fact that this BPCs (all of them) are going to be available though LP store after the event seem to be unknown for some people. Anyway, cant imagine anyone brining titan with manufacturing requirements of roughly 1T into battle... |
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
171
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Posted - 2016.07.10 21:44:28 -
[35] - Quote
The vehement lose its cap rep bonus which is traded for 10% web effectiveness and gains 12.5% to turret damage( that you dont have train gal dread up to level 5 for but have to dual train for minmatar dreads as well). For many this this would probably be a 17.5% gain in dps or better. It also has slightly better HP than the moros.
However at 20 times the cost in mats of a regular dread( plus profit margin and the fact it will be more rare even when available in the store) your looking at 50 bil is probably going to be on the low end and 60-80 bil on the upper end.
Even in the 50-60 bil range you are looking at two fully fitted nyx supers for the same cost or half a titan. But the benefits of the vehement are not going to be on par with the cost, making it a rich player "look at my pimped out dread because i have to much isk" thing that never actually gets used. Look at the revenant super. Its been out what? 3 or 4 years? more? and only 7 have been killed. Its a bling ship for epeen bragging rights. And its a complete waste of CCPs time to develop stuff like this that no one really can use on the regular basis because of its cost vs bling factor VS actual usability. The revenant is only about 5-6 times the cost of a regular super, the vehement is going to be 20 times.
The cost of mats for the vehement should be lowered to 3-5 times the cost for a normal dread. At 4 times the material and controlled by BPCs you are looking at 10-15 bil isk range which i think is a much more realistic trade off. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5878
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Posted - 2016.07.11 02:29:50 -
[36] - Quote
I miss the days that high value ore sites used to be grav sites.
Back when exploration was about exploring, rather than grinding.
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Tal Arran
Shadow of xXDEATHXx holding Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
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Posted - 2016.07.11 03:29:18 -
[37] - Quote
just as the topic creator, I compared moros to vehement and I just cant comprehend the reason behind x20 in build costs for the same hull. I can understand the x2000 chips you need, but why capital components are x20 times moros. By that logic, rattlesnake fleets shouldnt exist, cause their mineral requirements should be x20 scorpions each.
Using Lore logic, what kind of scientist would take gallente blueprint and make "advanced" version by not making it more efficient and powerful, but a little bit better at the cost of x20 less ME and Serpentis going, oh yeah that sounds fair... |
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2016.07.11 07:42:20 -
[38] - Quote
I don't actually understand why exploration pilots would have many beefs with the event.
(a) the shipyard+research follows normal signature spawning rules, which is highly advantageous to _mobile_ pilots who understand how it works and where to look - errr "explore" for stacked signatures. My record thus far has been 12 in a system, followed by 9 in the next system, and I frequently find 3-4 and get to solo most or all of them (my preferred way as I have the encounter perfected for my ship and more players often doesn't make it faster or most importantly more loot rolls per hour).
(b) you have to kill slightly less than half of the NPCs to get the loot to drop, if you do that in the right order, you get another loot roll at the end for basically the same set of NPCs with 2 extra BCs (which die fast). ie if you know where the s+rs stack up, and where you don't have competition, you can essentially turn a stack of 10 s+rs into 20 loot rolls with only 10 warps (minimized overhead), and no jumps (overhead), and no further searching (overhead).
(c) its abundantly clear that the players who I would normally be competing with telescopes, phi and mul zatar, are running s+rs as well (some seem more or less exclusively), which is reducing the number of ded signatures they consume (and thus regenerate through causing it to respawn). Its certainly reducing the number of sigs I find per session, because I spend some time on the event and don't move as much.
That has lead to supply issues with the corelum c-type medium repairer, and the corelum c-type energized explosive membrane, which amongst other things completely cleared dodixie of the rep, and saw my last unit go for more than 50% more than pre event, on a badly conservative price guess (looks like the market would bear double price).
The rep showed up the stress first, because it turns out the traders in dodixie didn't have stocks. I have little doubt other modules across all races are also burning traders stocks, and you'll see resistance points in the prices melt when they are burnt. it will take a long time for the market to build up stocks to put those resistance points back.
As a pilot performing "grindsploration" its fine, because there is simply another choice available to me when I land in system, about content. and a lot more value about crossing some lowsec. I'm not personally _that_ interested in the bpc, like most people i think I'm interested in completing a midgrade set of implants for myself, and selling other implant drops.
If you tend to get double rolls per s+r, it seems like you'll also run very close to 2000 chips when you finish the event, which leaves that part of the event dealt with, and just a question of whether CCP will reconsider the pre-nerfed mats on the bpc -> if nobody builds them at the current prices... |
wangsunan
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.08.08 09:00:14 -
[39] - Quote
I have never commented on forum threads cause laziness , but this one made me logged in and replied, ITS PURE GOLD, its probably comment from thousands players who are too lazy to make a complaint towards CCP, I have to leave my marks here before its getting locked
Thousands bumps for you bro |
wangsunan
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2016.08.08 09:06:23 -
[40] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:A dread that does 10% more damage and costs 10% more than a normal dread will replace every dread in the game.
Why use a Moros when you leaving 10% damage on the table for a mere 200million isk? There is no trade off, it becomes a must have dread.
While the price is very high its at the level where Alliances have to decide if its worth bringing into combat for its cost.
Or, people swimming in c5/c6 magnetar isk can up their damage even more.
Also, I would guess that if one of these appeared in a fleet it would get primaried automatically, quite an advantage if it can abosrb the damage.
Sure thing , but when this 10% more damage became 1800% more expensive than a Moros , then nobody cares about the damage anymore , they can as well bringing 2 super carrier which also cost 40b to battle,and deal 120% more damage than a single vehement and can tank maybe 1000% more damage. |
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
14283
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Posted - 2016.08.08 09:18:32 -
[41] - Quote
This doesnt have much sense to me, why so much materials? Its unimaginable why would someone build that to use. Only for looking at it and to tell everybody you have something like that. Collectors item and thats all.
Bring one, everyone will shoot it and it will melt quicker than your other Moros..
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒτς
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him.
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Lan Wang
C.Q.B Snuffed Out
3369
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Posted - 2016.08.08 09:28:08 -
[42] - Quote
I want an Angel Cartel super carrier which looks like a cross between a huge mach and a hel which can kite machariel fleets with fighter bombers which are big dramiels
Loyalist to Angel Cartel
Your killboard reads like a "how to get farmed 101" - Noah Reese
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
31921
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Posted - 2016.08.08 12:43:48 -
[43] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I want an Angel Cartel super carrier which looks like a cross between a huge mach and a hel which can kite machariel fleets with fighter bombers which are big dramiels I want an angel cartel mining barge.
Just think about it, it'll look like a cow!
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
113
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Posted - 2016.08.08 13:02:13 -
[44] - Quote
Personally I'm not as bothered about the ISK value of the increased build cost (Even if it is completely out of wack with reality) as I am about the dangerous precedent the inflated build itself cost sets. Up until this point the additional cost for building a faction ship came from it's BPC. This is true from say a Navy Hookbill all the way up to a Vindicator. Even the Revenant (Sansha Super) has a very respectable build cost with almost all it's expense coming from the scarcity of the BPC's.
The build cost of the Serpentis capitals fly's in the face of over a decades worth of build cost conventions being fairly universal across the board and highlights a serious risk of future faction content being for the insanely space wealthy as opposed to just those willing to work a bit harder. I feel quite sad that this may be the first time in over a decade that the hunger for RL bucks has trumped solid and well established in game conventions. |
Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
31923
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Posted - 2016.08.08 13:42:45 -
[45] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:a serious risk of future faction content being for the insanely space wealthy as opposed to just those willing to work a bit harder. I feel quite sad that this may be the first time in over a decade that the hunger for RL bucks has trumped solid and well established in game conventions.
I don't see anything indicating that this is about rl money.
Those who just "work a bit harder" might not be the ones who deserve them. I know that sounds harsh, sorry, but where is room in this meta for everyone who "works a bit harder"? Wealth and assets accumulate very easily! The lazy ones of next week seem like the harder working of the last.
In the end it would be boring anyway if everyone could afford them ... ... and it would devalueing them significantly.
Rarity ensures everyone's either proud to have one ... ... or proud to have killed one.
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
113
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Posted - 2016.08.08 13:52:03 -
[46] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Rawthorm wrote:a serious risk of future faction content being for the insanely space wealthy as opposed to just those willing to work a bit harder. I feel quite sad that this may be the first time in over a decade that the hunger for RL bucks has trumped solid and well established in game conventions. I don't see anything indicating that this is about rl money.
Maybe not directly, but a grind fest event paired with the first move away from established patterns in faction build cost give a good idea at the corner of the user base this event is aimed at.
Solecist Project wrote:Those who just "work a bit harder" might not be the ones who deserve them. I know that sounds harsh, sorry, but where is room in this meta for everyone who "works a bit harder"? Wealth and assets accumulate very easily! The lazy ones of next week seem like the harder working of the last.
In the end it would be boring anyway if everyone could afford them ... ... and it would devalueing them significantly.
Rarity ensures everyone's either proud to have one ... ... or proud to have killed one.
Oh I agree that working harder for something isn't necessarily the ideal barrier to entry. I mean just look at Titan proliferation. However extreme cost and rarity is what the Alliance Tourny is for. Faction ships have a well established cost formula and this isn't an area that CCP should tip on its head on a whim (unless they intend to x20 the cost of all faction ships so it at least matches)
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17826
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Posted - 2016.08.08 14:17:45 -
[47] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Can we get a tl;dr before this gets locked?
***** expensive and OP is a peasant. |
Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
31930
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Posted - 2016.08.08 14:23:17 -
[48] - Quote
My best guess is that they're trying to experiment with implementing long time goals ... ... trying a slight shift of culture away from instant-gratification-thinking.
It's a possibility.
"That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
395
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Posted - 2016.08.08 14:44:33 -
[49] - Quote
Celeste Coeval wrote:rabble rabble PvE content rabble rabble
PvP content is where the excitement and fun really are. Eve is an MMO. Embrace it. PvE is for single-player gamers, really.
Agent of the New Order
http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1306
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Posted - 2016.08.08 14:54:23 -
[50] - Quote
Revis Owen wrote:Celeste Coeval wrote:rabble rabble PvE content rabble rabble PvP content is where the excitement and fun really are. Eve is an MMO. Embrace it. PvE is for single-player gamers, really.
Does shooting the gate rats while camping count as PvE?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1099
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Posted - 2016.08.08 14:57:54 -
[51] - Quote
Way to be OP.
Not today spaghetti.
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1163
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Posted - 2016.08.08 15:31:15 -
[52] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Rawthorm wrote:a serious risk of future faction content being for the insanely space wealthy as opposed to just those willing to work a bit harder. I feel quite sad that this may be the first time in over a decade that the hunger for RL bucks has trumped solid and well established in game conventions. I don't see anything indicating that this is about rl money. Maybe not directly, but a grind fest event paired with the first move away from established patterns in faction build cost give a good idea at the corner of the user base this event is aimed at. Solecist Project wrote:Those who just "work a bit harder" might not be the ones who deserve them. I know that sounds harsh, sorry, but where is room in this meta for everyone who "works a bit harder"? Wealth and assets accumulate very easily! The lazy ones of next week seem like the harder working of the last.
In the end it would be boring anyway if everyone could afford them ... ... and it would devalueing them significantly.
Rarity ensures everyone's either proud to have one ... ... or proud to have killed one. Oh I agree that working harder for something isn't necessarily the ideal barrier to entry. I mean just look at Titan proliferation. However extreme cost and rarity is what the Alliance Tourny is for. Faction ships have a well established cost formula and this isn't an area that CCP should tip on its head on a whim (unless they intend to x20 the cost of all faction ships so it at least matches)
But your assumption is that these costs will stay static despite the fact that we currently only have prices and drop rates based on the event. It could be that CCP plans to bring things inline post event with their initial goal being high cost to balance the open nature of the event.
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
114
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Posted - 2016.08.08 16:15:30 -
[53] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote: But your assumption is that these costs will stay static despite the fact that we currently only have prices and drop rates based on the event. It could be that CCP plans to bring things inline post event with their initial goal being high cost to balance the open nature of the event.
I think my assumption is pretty valid. CCP is well practiced in douche bag maneuvers, but I cant see them waiting until after some are built to make the cost reasonable. If I was that guy that had just laid out 30+ billion to build one, only to find CCP drops the build cost a week later down to normal dread levels I'd be pretty pissed and with good reason. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
310
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Posted - 2016.08.08 16:21:30 -
[54] - Quote
Supers were supposed to be stupid rare because of how expensive they were. All we had to do to build a lot of them was to import a lot of orebears
A signature :o
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7877
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Posted - 2016.08.08 16:41:27 -
[55] - Quote
Celeste Coeval wrote:
Which is not what built this games community originally...
You nailed it.
The community that's left is sick right now. CCP has the leadership and authority to fix it without any nerfs or changes in mechanics and covering it up with new content. The game is better than ever but it's wasted on the players. But the problem appears internal to their ranks and a problem must be admitted to before it can be addressed.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Memphis Baas
1890
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Posted - 2016.08.08 17:10:12 -
[56] - Quote
CCP should have kept the materials for the Vehement the same as the materials for the Moros, with two extra material needed: 500 full skill injectors and 10,000 (capsuleer) corpses. The injectors to keep the PLEX sales going, and the corpses to promote the PVP that these ships will never see. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7877
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Posted - 2016.08.08 18:46:28 -
[57] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:CCP should have kept the materials for the Vehement the same as the materials for the Moros, with two extra material needed: 500 full skill injectors and 10,000 (capsuleer) corpses. The injectors to keep the PLEX sales going, and the corpses to promote the PVP that these ships will never see.
I have long hoped for biological "bug ships" (See the "Lexx" series) that needed to be fed on corpses. But that apparently would have to be a different game for being way too outside of Eve cannon. Just the way it is.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Skettis Arthie
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2016.08.08 21:59:33 -
[58] - Quote
Excellent thread! Since "fozziesov", CCP is constantly treating us like puppets, everything that was good in this game simply ... vanished! I think they're just looking at PLEX sales and that's it!
EVE is far of being a game anymore, people are fighting for killboards, "lulz" and ... that's pretty much it. |
Lugia3
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
1510
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Posted - 2016.08.08 22:14:34 -
[59] - Quote
7.4 untanked freighters
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
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Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
633
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Posted - 2016.08.08 22:35:01 -
[60] - Quote
CCP has been breaking the fundamentals of the game consistently in the last year or so. Many of the things introduced would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. I blame the current crop of Devs for the change in attitude and direction which has perhaps been influenced by the shareholders clamouring for more $$.
Greyscale was the last of the old school devs to leave, and then upon his departure a lot of his work was undone. If you look at how he interacted on the forums extensively before pushing changes to tranquillity, yet wasn't afraid to make bold moves to keep eve close to the original vision; we're now lucky to get a single response to a new feature, if there is a thread at all.
So to cut a long story short, the fact that the Vehement has a ridiculously over inflated build cost doesn't surprise me. And although annoying and stupid, is rather a minor issue compared to what else has been coming out of CCP recently.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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