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Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:12:00 - [61] The strongest thing about the myrmidon is tank and drones. The brutix lacks in that area, but the brutix also performs better at range. So what I'm saying is, the brutix is a much better gang ship, or fleet support ship. The myrmidon is a good solo ship, or small 2-3 man gang ship. I think its a pretty good balance actually. Compare that with the cyclone/hurricane. The hurricane outperforms the cyclone at EVERYTHING. Shamis
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:54:00 - [62] Not true A Cycloen outtanks the HUrricane so much that it can EASILY defeat a hurricane. A Cycloen will punch 3 NOS on the HUrricane and tank it completely until the HUrricane is out of cap. The hurricane is far more versatile, but it does not completely outpserform the cyclone. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Khavi Vetali Team Americas Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:01:00 - [63] Since the Myrm is a tier 2 ship leave it's powergrid, slot layout, etc, alone. Leave the drone bay, leave the bonuses, etc. Just saw off some turret hardpoints, like two. That would do it in my opinion. Originally by: Itanis "Hello there mate, I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm going to have to sodomize you with howitzers. Have a lovely day!"
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Khavi Vetali Since the Myrm is a tier 2 ship leave it's powergrid, slot layout, etc, alone. Leave the drone bay, leave the bonuses, etc. Just saw off some turret hardpoints, like two. That would do it in my opinion. I would say saw one off to to make it in the middle of a domi and a vexor
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:10:00 - [65] Originally by: Simon Jax If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more? Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's . It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No. ---------------- Freedom Of Speech Band of Brothers T-shirt
Fokus Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:16:00 - [66] Edited by: Fokus on 16/03/2007 19:28:01 I will say that I agree with you. The Myrmidon is ridiculous. It has greater damage potential than most battleships in the game and it can tank almost just as well. It should at least have its drone bay dropped to 100m3 from 125m3, and its 6 turrets reduced to 4. And I would suspect maybe one less mid slot would also be good. I really dont like flying a Myrmidon because it is twice as effective as a hurricane for a Minmatar pilot...it just..isnt right. Lets put this thing back in line.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:34:00 - [67] Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Simon Jax If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more? Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's . It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No. Yay for using the broken T2 market as a point of reference for cost-performance analysis. Now, then, welcome to Failsville. You took a wrong turn, going down Resell Price Ave. instead of Build Cost Blvd. Please turn the car around, give the kids a fresh set of batteries for their Gameboys to shut them the ** up, and get back on the road. Originally by:** Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Simon Jax If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more? Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's . It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No. You can't use t2 market logic on a T1 industry, sorry.
Adamantium Beam	Posted - 2007.03.16 20:59:00 - [69] Swap the low slots and PG between these two ships. The brutix wil be more pew pew and the myrm less imba and it will be fine.
Aries Acheron The Valour United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.03.16 21:15:00 - [70] Of all the Battlecruisers, the Brutix does not need a change one bit. Let's see why, shall we? The Hurricane makes the Cyclone obsolete for most uses. The Harbinger makes the Prophecy obsolete for all except a bit of tanking. The Drake makes the Ferox obsolete for 95% of uses, save being a crappy sniper. The Brutix is fine, compared to the Myrm. IT has a use as a better ranged sniper or a close range blasterboat. ~~~ Action! Suspense! Jita! Eve Tribune

Corwain Gallente Zero Team	Posted - 2007.03.16 21:34:00 - [71] Looks like the most recent argument against in this thread is that all the Tier2 BCs make the Tier1s look silly. And if I was the OP this is something I would have brought up. The Tier2s were never supposed to be better in every way than the Tier1s, just different. This is a problem with all the Tier2s vs. their Tier1 counterparts, it is simply the most obvious with the Myrm (and Drake as close second). When the new BCs were announced they were supposedly going to be have more gank but no tanking bonus. Apparently that fell by the wayside in the design process and instead they were made to be "HAC killers". So yes, your point is correct almost all the new BCs make the old ones obsolete. This does not mean that thats what SHOULD be, and is no excuse for the Myrm to be so extremely powerful compared to the Brutix. Fix all the BCs, just discuss how to fix em in another thread.
Xori Ruscuv Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.03.16 21:50:00 - [72] Originally by: Corwain Looks like the most recent argument against in this thread is that all the Tier2 BCs make the Tier1s look silly. And if I was the OP this is something I would have brought up. The Tier2s were never supposed to be better in every way than the Tier1s, just different. Read the ******* thread. I have brought it up OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.
Arcalane Celso Caldari Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 22:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Not true A Cycloen outtanks the HUrricane so much that it can EASILY defeat a hurricane. A Cycloen will punch 3 NOS on the HUrricane and tank it completely until the HUrricane is out of cap. The hurricane is far more versatile, but it does not completely outpserform the cyclone. Any Hurricane pilot could likewise do the same to your precious Cyclone with 2-3 NOS, and then smash your tank by running you out of cap, thusly disabling your shield booster and shutting down your shield recharge. After that it just has to punch through armour/shields to dispose of the rest, and cap is rarely an issue for `matari ships due to no capacitor use for autocannons/howitzers. NOSes cut both ways. :> With proper skills, either pilot could have a decent passive or active tank against any or all damage types. Although it's obvious that the Hurricane seems geared more towards armour tanking than shield tanking than the Cyclone. All ships have their strengths and weaknesses, and any defense can be broken given time, persistance and sufficient application of force. Still, it's interesting to hear about the Myrmidon's capabilities, which also makes me thankful I was lucky enough to avoid unpleasantries with one some time ago. That was an amusing situation I shall not recount, and should best be described as "out of the frying pan and into the fire", although I am again thankful it had enough thermal resistance to tank that little encounter! ~~ I'm in ur belts minin' ur roids.
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.16 22:57:00 - [74] just leave it as it is please, Drone Ships have been hard to fit all this time, try fitting dual LAR and cap injector and then see how much pg u have on a domi, try fitting dual rep, cap injector on vexor, just leave it as it is, if your gonna change anything leave everything as it is but reduce turret slots down to 3 leave every other stat unchanged ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.16 23:45:00 - [75] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Another idea: Why not an ewar ship? Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this. Myrmidon: Highs: 5 or 4 Mids: 6 or 7 Lows: 5 (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship Ow yeh, damps ftw. Some damprigs on that = immortal drones meohahahah _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Xori Ruscuv Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:18:00 - [76] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Another idea: Why not an ewar ship? Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this. Myrmidon: Highs: 5 or 4 Mids: 6 or 7 Lows: 5 (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship Ow yeh, damps ftw. Some damprigs on that = immortal drones meohahahah Did you read what I said? Here, let me quote: Quote: Highs: 5 or 4 Mids: 6 or 7 Lows: 5 (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus Yeah... it wouldn't be a drone ship, it would be an ewar ship. It would just have enough drone bay to contribute a little damage and maybe get inties off its back... just like the Celestis.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:22:00 - [77] Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14 yaaay, 5* blaster 2 ew power+other goodies good tank with 5 lows. 5* T2 hammerhead Or 5* railguns 2 Large shieldextenders+invul pdu, shield relays... 5* hammerhead 2 = Pottsey loving you (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:34:00 - [78] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:31:00 Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14 yaaay, 5* blaster 2 ew power+other goodies good tank with 5 lows. 5* T2 hammerhead Or 5* railguns 2 Large shieldextenders+invul pdu, shield relays... 5* hammerhead 2 = Pottsey loving you (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus Better than reducing the drone bay would be to give it a drone damage bonus to med drones only instead of the optimal range bonus or effectiveness bonus for the damps. That way it can carry spares. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:42:00 - [79] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:40:56 Harby should be doing similar DPS with pulse compared to a brutix. A similar brutix will tank better[it will be using elctrons], but the range of the Harbies pulses would balance that fact heavily in gangs. A brutix that eekes out more damage the Harbinger will have a very light tank which, while the Harbinger will also have a very light tank, means that you are now directly in the damage vs range comparison, making the Harbinger better for Gangs and the Brutix better solo. It would be [almost, but not quite due to lower HP totals on cruisers] like giving the Omen 5 turrets a damage[and not rof] bonus and a 50 cube drone bay. At which point it would be near directly comparable to the thorax if the thorax were to get a tanking bonus.[Note that the above is an example, a 5 turret, 50 cube Omen would be ridiculous] The issues with the BCs are this 1) The Myrmidon is overpowered. It fills every role as well or better than its competitors. It tanks, it ganks, it tanks and ganks, it noses, it rail/sentry snipes. It does these things better than its teir 1 equivelent without giving anything up. The Hurricane can tank better than a Cyclone, but in order to do so, must lose DPS against the Cyclone[and cant fit gang mods]. The Drake does not have the capacity to utterly ream frigates from over 100km away[while still fitting gang mods and other juicy options] or deal instant damage to any target at any range. The Harbinger doesnt tank anywhere near the Prophecy even though the Prophecy is fairly useless for doing anything but ratting/missioning Sansha and Blood or being a gang mod platform. The Myrmidon does all these things better than the Brutix. It has an easier time fiting gang mods, does more DPS when fitted gank[and tank], has the same or longer range. Etc. Etc. Etc. It should also be noted that there is an imbalance within the teir 1 battlecruisers, where the Brutix just cleans house in all categories[its the best close and medium range damage, best usefull tank, etc] except long range damage[Ferox is once it surpasses the Brutixs optimal] Such that the three simple answers to the issues are 1: Nerf the Myrm: To compensate, reduce its drawbacks 2: Boost the Ferox, Prophecy, and Cyclone 3: Boost the Harbinger, just because it needs 8 turrets in order to not look funny. Myrm has no slot or stat changes except: Bonus 1 Becomes: 20% Drone Hit Points and Damage Bonus for Medium Drones and Bonus 2 Becomes: Sensor Damp effectiveness/hybrid damage/drone velocity For number 2: Ferox and Cyclone get another turret and mid slot: Prophecy gets 25% damage bonus and 50% energy cap use special ability, and a 7th low[in addition to the tank bonus] Brutix gains a 7th low and 8th, utiltiy high and powergrid/cpu to fit a gang mod. For number 3: Harbinger gets 8 turrets, 50% cap use special ability, and a tracking bonus. Alternatly, cut all laser cap use by 40-45% and start giving amarr ships second bonuses. Now you have situations where: Cylone tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Hurricane. Prophecy tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Harbinger[minus the mid slot/low slot conversion thing]. Ferox is no longer out-damaged at all ranges against the Brutix and gains more versitilty in the mids. Brutix gets balanced inbetween the gank of the teir 2 BCs and the tank of the teir 1 BCs. Myrmidon ganks better than Brutix but doesnt tank as well.[with damage bonus, or ewars instead of damage for ewar, or becomes drone supremacy boat] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Xori Ruscuv Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.03.17 00:48:00 - [80] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14 yaaay, 5* blaster 2 ew power+other goodies good tank with 5 lows. 5* T2 hammerhead Or 5* railguns 2 Large shieldextenders+invul pdu, shield relays... 5* hammerhead 2 = Pottsey loving you (Decrease drone bay to 50) Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis) Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus It would be sortof a weakass ship though... no damage bonus, etc. An ewar ship with gang mods would be awsome. IMO Gallente REALLY badly need an ewar ship that isn't a cruiser... we need something with range, etc...

Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 03:16:00 - [81] Just consider the Brutix a cheap version of the Deimos which is FAR FAR FAR worse off than the Brutix. If you actually wanted a Brutix upgrade fly an Astarte, its got that extra low slot you wanted and is great for short and mid range gank.. No wish list to CCP needed.
Xori Ruscuv Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Rastigan If you actually wanted a Brutix upgrade fly an Astarte, its got that extra low slot you wanted and is great for short and mid range gank.. No wish list to CCP needed It's on my list, mate! :D :D
Galen Silas Gallente Mean Corp	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:54:00 - [83] I think what needs to be looked at is the ships which are a tier lower than the other are going to not as good, makes sense for the myrm to be better. It's a brand new ship in terms of release, technology has advanced making it better, in terms of eve speak. Another bit of confusion I think is going on is the fact that the 2 previous examples of lower tier ships(vexor, domi) are both drone boats. Not hating on the OP but this must be taken into consideration.
Kittamaru Gallente TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:23:00 - [84] Brutix > Myrm in gatecamps and ganks Why? Turrets = imediate damage. Drones have to fly to the target. I can sit my brutix 55km off the gate and deal around 500 dps with nearly 98% accuracy using 3x T2 Mag Stabs, 7x of the top T1 named railguns and Iridium ammo. Granted, my "tank" consists of a mediocre shield tank, but it's just enough to get out of the way if something too hot to handle comes thru. And T2 Hammerheads add a nice touch :D
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:40:56 Harby should be doing similar DPS with pulse compared to a brutix. A similar brutix will tank better[it will be using elctrons], but the range of the Harbies pulses would balance that fact heavily in gangs. A brutix that eekes out more damage the Harbinger will have a very light tank which, while the Harbinger will also have a very light tank, means that you are now directly in the damage vs range comparison, making the Harbinger better for Gangs and the Brutix better solo. It would be [almost, but not quite due to lower HP totals on cruisers] like giving the Omen 5 turrets a damage[and not rof] bonus and a 50 cube drone bay. At which point it would be near directly comparable to the thorax if the thorax were to get a tanking bonus.[Note that the above is an example, a 5 turret, 50 cube Omen would be ridiculous] The issues with the BCs are this 1) The Myrmidon is overpowered. It fills every role as well or better than its competitors. It tanks, it ganks, it tanks and ganks, it noses, it rail/sentry snipes. It does these things better than its teir 1 equivelent without giving anything up. The Hurricane can tank better than a Cyclone, but in order to do so, must lose DPS against the Cyclone[and cant fit gang mods]. The Drake does not have the capacity to utterly ream frigates from over 100km away[while still fitting gang mods and other juicy options] or deal instant damage to any target at any range. The Harbinger doesnt tank anywhere near the Prophecy even though the Prophecy is fairly useless for doing anything but ratting/missioning Sansha and Blood or being a gang mod platform. The Myrmidon does all these things better than the Brutix. It has an easier time fiting gang mods, does more DPS when fitted gank[and tank], has the same or longer range. Etc. Etc. Etc. It should also be noted that there is an imbalance within the teir 1 battlecruisers, where the Brutix just cleans house in all categories[its the best close and medium range damage, best usefull tank, etc] except long range damage[Ferox is once it surpasses the Brutixs optimal] Such that the three simple answers to the issues are 1: Nerf the Myrm: To compensate, reduce its drawbacks 2: Boost the Ferox, Prophecy, and Cyclone 3: Boost the Harbinger, just because it needs 8 turrets in order to not look funny. Myrm has no slot or stat changes except: Bonus 1 Becomes: 20% Drone Hit Points and Damage Bonus for Medium Drones and Bonus 2 Becomes: Sensor Damp effectiveness/hybrid damage/drone velocity For number 2: Ferox and Cyclone get another turret and mid slot: Prophecy gets 25% damage bonus and 50% energy cap use special ability, and a 7th low[in addition to the tank bonus] Brutix gains a 7th low and 8th, utiltiy high and powergrid/cpu to fit a gang mod. For number 3: Harbinger gets 8 turrets, 50% cap use special ability, and a tracking bonus. Alternatly, cut all laser cap use by 40-45% and start giving amarr ships second bonuses. Now you have situations where: Cylone tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Hurricane. Prophecy tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Harbinger[minus the mid slot/low slot conversion thing]. Ferox is no longer out-damaged at all ranges against the Brutix and gains more versitilty in the mids. Brutix gets balanced inbetween the gank of the teir 2 BCs and the tank of the teir 1 BCs. Myrmidon ganks better than Brutix but doesnt tank as well.[with damage bonus, or ewars instead of damage for ewar, or becomes drone supremacy boat] that would make me as happy as a kid in christmas morning. True balance (welle xcpet the laser stuff.. because just cutting its cost make the usable by all races and they DO have higher base DPS than projectiles for example. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:52:00 - [86] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 19/03/2007 16:03:23 i wounder is it the drone issue or is it simply the issue with the myrm having the tank bonus like the drake having a tank bonus? change the myrm bonus to turret boost in way ot domi and change drake bonus to rof in way of raven. Will this solve everything? Changing myrm to a damp bonus is overkill. Reason? Tier two were suposed to be gankers not tankers but myrm and drake have tanking bonuses. Please inform me if this small shift does not fix everything? [EDIT] Hurricane should get it's 7th turret back to be fair. Harbinger could get more PG, CPU for turrets and maybe give it back it's ROF ability. (I don't fly them i only heard it was changed to a DMG bonus) Not a 8th gun as then it would have more guns then most battleships.
Lab Technician071548	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:16:00 - [87] Wahhhh someone killed me with a Myrmidon. The T2 BCs were presented as the natural progression of an arms race. We don't normally see arms races to make things "different". In fact, arms races exist to make things that are different only to the extent that they are "better" and, by "better" it is meant "more effective". As a builder, seller, reseller, and PVP alt player, I can tell you that the T1 BCs are all but dead in the market. All of them. The Brutix sells better than any of the others but still slowly compared even to Amarr T2 BCs. I don't mean to stifle your precious creativity, but there's nothing to see here. Please move along.
Xori Ruscuv Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:09:00 - [88] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 19/03/2007 18:10:12 Originally by: Lab Technician071548 Wahhhh someone killed me with a Myrmidon....I don't mean to stifle your precious creativity, but there's nothing to see here. Please move along. LOL... as I predicted, someone who failed to actually read the post. Post with your main, nublet! (EDIT: I may as well explain: I FLY a bloody Myrmidon. If you read the post, you'd know that.) Passive shield tank is the new WCS!
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:13:00 - [89] Xori, I've been sayin the same thing since the Tier 2s came out, but I guess you get tired after a while.. Glad to see someone else grab the flag Either the brutix is turned into a drone boat and myrmidon gun boat, or swap the tiers. BTW this same design flaw exists with prophecy and harbinger as well, tanking ships were always higher tier to make up for the lack of DPS and speed, while laser gun boats were always lower tier. ATM we see both brutix and prophecy entering the path of becoming obsolete. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Kim kitori Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:27:00 - [90] Drones can be popped easily. To outdamage brutix, myrm needs heavy drones. If you web the heavies you can almost insta pop the drones if you have decent skills in gunnery. Brutix can also leave without loosing its main weapons. But Myrmidon cant warp out when its in trouble and keep its main weapon coz ogres are really slow. I dont know about its shield tank. Feel free to nerf it. But leave the ship's bonus and layout alone. /personal rant> Gawd whats wrong with these people. When I was caldari everyone wanted to nerf caldari ships. Now I switched to Gallente everyone wants to nerf gallente ships. God hates me. <rant/



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