| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
   |
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:02:45
In my opinion, the Brutix and the Myrmidon have a problem. The Myrmidon is a very flexible ship. It is probably also a little overpowered. As a result, it obsoletes the Brutix.
Gun ships, drone ships, and flexibility
Along the Gallente line of T1 ships prior to the introduction of the new battlecruisers, we see a pattern:
Cruisers:
Vexor: Drone ship, fewer slots (5/3/4, 4 turret point)
Thorax: Gun ship, more slots (5/3/5, 5 turret points)
Battleships:
Dominix: Drone ship, fewer slots (6/5/7, 6 turrets)
Megathron: Gun ship, more slots (8/4/7, 7 turrets)
Amarr cruisers should be mentioned, due to Arbitrator:
Arbitrator: Drone ships, fewer slots (4/4/4, 2 turrets)
Maller: Gun ship, more slots (6/3/6, 4 turrets)
Gun ships need many high slots and many low slots. Low slots are used for tank, damage mods, and tracking. High slot use is obvious.
Drone ships exude flexibility. Their primary weapons don't use slots. They don't need low slots to perform damage-wise. These ships are about utility. High slot utility, low slot can be dedicated to tank, and mid slot utility.
Now, compare the Brutix and the Myrmidon:
Brutix: 7/4/5 (7 turrets)
Myrmidon: 6/5/6 (6 turrets)
What's wrong with this picture?
The Mymidon obsoletes the Brutix in terms of DPS AND tank AND utility. NOT cool. Now - the Dominix CAN be made to obsolete the Megathron DPS-wise, but it makes significant sacrifices, due to its significantly lower PG. It also requires high quality gear to do so. I don't see why the Myrmidon and Brutix should be any different. I fly a Myrmidon with tech 2 electron blasters and 5x Ogre Is (drone interfacing 5) and it WELL outdamages my Brutix. My Mydmidon tanks better, i fit dual webs, and does better damage. WTF? I'm not saying that I dislike my Myrmidon... but I would rather fly a gunship!
Solution
The Brutix and the Myrmidon's difference need to be looked at. In my opinion:
- The Brutix should have more low slots than the Myrmidon
- The Myrmidon should have more mid slots than the Brutix
- The Brutix should have far more high slots than the Myrmidon
Now take note: I'm going on the principle here that the gunship should be the "tier 2", and the droneship should be the "tier 1". I DO NOT like the idea that "tier 2" is "better" than "tier 1". I don't think the devs ever specifically said that this should be the case (and certainly there are plenty of instances where this IS NOT THE CASE), but they DO seem to adhere to a "higher tier implies more slots" paradigm. I'd also like to see the ships have different roles! Thus:
THE following concepts AREN'T FINAL. I know the direction I want these ships to move in, but I'm not 100% sure of the stats I'd like to see
Brutix
Tier 2
Highs: 8 high slots (7 turrets)
Mids: 4
Lows: 6
(adjust PG/CPU accordingly)
Bonus 1: 5% medium hybrid damage bonus
Bonus 2: I'm not sure. If the 7.5% extra rep bonus is OK for the "old" Myrmidon it is probably ok for the "new" Brutix too. I'd love to see some sort of more gun-related bonus here though.
Myrmidon
Tier 1
Highs: 5 (AT MOST 4 turret points)
Mids: 5
Lows: 5
(adjust PG/CPU accordingly, but have less PG/CPU than the Brutix)
Bonus 1: Drone damage bonus
Bonus 2: I'm not sure, really...
(I also wish there was a way to increase the Myrmidon's drone bay. The fact that it can field 5 ogres and 6 medium guns is already over the top... but this IS a drone ship.)
Another idea: Why not an ewar ship?
Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this.
Myrmidon:
Highs: 5 or 4
Mids: 6 or 7
Lows: 5
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship. I want to see different roles for these ships!
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:05:00 -
[2]
Reserved \o/
And... first! 
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:08:00 -
[3]
Maybe another reserved, just in case this actually goes anywhere 
|
Fraile Cloudsinger
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:08:00 -
[4]
Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. The myrmidon is also more expencive. Compare the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 battlecruisers and you'll see a pattern..Leave the myrmidon alone.
|
El Torrent
Gallente
Paxton Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: El Torrent on 15/03/2007 20:08:32
While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier. Small, but still significant difference in this discussion!
And don't make the only top tier Droneship we have away, and make it lowe tier. Since the first stats I have seen on the myrmidon, I always thought, give it Ishtar like turrets (3 max) and even remove a high slot
--
Paxton Industries Recruiting.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:15:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:20:28
 Originally by: Fraile Cloudsinger
Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. The myrmidon is also more expencive. Compare the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 battlecruisers and you'll see a pattern..Leave the myrmidon alone.
Read the post. I go on the assumption that the Mymidon DOESN'T need to be tier 2. The Myrmidon IS overpowered.
I have awsome gunnery skills, and my Myrmidon still out DPSes my Brutix. That isn't right.
The Myrmidon has way more utility, more tank, and more DPS - with inferior skills.
My Gunnery sits at 5.x mil, my Drones sits at 2.5m. Can you imagine what happens when my drones hits 3.5m? (Ogre II for the omgwtfpwningu)
If Tier X > Tier X-1, then:
Apoc is better than Geddon
Megathron is better than Dominix
Rokh is better than Raven
Tempest is better than Phoon
Moa is better than Caracal
Maller is better than Arbitrator
Rupture is better than Stabber
etc
etc
None of those are true. Therefore your statement is wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it.
In short: take your "tier 2 > tier 1" and leave. This isn't the thread for it. Tier 2 may mean more slots, more pg, and more cpu than tier 1... but it says nothing else.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: El Torrent
While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier.
Nope. I didn't miss that. READ THE POST!
I know very well that Myrmidon is tier 2. I'm suggesting that it be MADE TIER 1.
Tier 2 does not mean "better than" tier 1, no matter what you like. See my previous post. It may mean more slots, more PG, more cpu, etc. The Myrmidon has no business being tier 2.
|
El Torrent
Gallente
Paxton Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: El Torrent
While I do agree with most of your points, I want to point out, that you miss something in your comparisation.
The minor detail is, Vexor and Dominix are lowest tier in their class. The myrmidon on the other hand, is high tier.
Nope. I didn't miss that. READ THE POST!
I know very well that Myrmidon is tier 2. I'm suggesting that it be MADE TIER 1.
Tier 2 does not mean "better than" tier 1, no matter what you like. See my previous post. It may mean more slots, more PG, more cpu, etc. The Myrmidon has no business being tier 2.
I did read your post, sorry for expressing me badly.
Let me rephrase. Why can't we for once get a drone ship, being highest tier, and without powergrid problems?
--
Paxton Industries Recruiting.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: El Torrent
I did read your post, sorry for expressing me badly.
Let me rephrase. Why can't we for once get a drone ship, being highest tier, and without powergrid problems?
IMO: because as it stands, the Myrmidon is a tad overpowered.
|
Katrina Coreli
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:33:00 -
[10]
i dont like these changes
the brutix is already a fantastic ship. That last high is uneaded and is just going to encourage even more NOS ussage
The Myrmidon definatly neads a nef but what you purpose would nerf it to oblivion.
I agree the problem of the Myrmi outdamageing the Brutix is a problem so heres what id like to see happen to the myrmi
Have it drop turret slots as you sugested, prehaps to 4 or even 3.
To be honest i think the coming mythical NOS nerf will raise to Brutix near to the level of the myrmi and i think slot removal would be a cut too deep.
That drone bay is fantastic but drones can be poped very easily. Even when the Myrmi is up close you can still try and shoot them, Worst case scenario is they have to withdraw and re release drones giving your tank a chance to recover.
Fact is the myrmi is abit of a one trick poney and is, though overpowered, not unbeatable even with out the NOS nerf
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 20:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:41:47
Originally by: Katrina Coreli
i dont like these changes
the brutix is already a fantastic ship. That last high is uneaded and is just going to encourage even more NOS ussage
The Myrmidon definatly neads a nef but what you purpose would nerf it to oblivion.
I agree the problem of the Myrmi outdamageing the Brutix is a problem so heres what id like to see happen to the myrmi
Have it drop turret slots as you sugested, prehaps to 4 or even 3.
To be honest i think the coming mythical NOS nerf will raise to Brutix near to the level of the myrmi and i think slot removal would be a cut too deep.
That drone bay is fantastic but drones can be poped very easily. Even when the Myrmi is up close you can still try and shoot them, Worst case scenario is they have to withdraw and re release drones giving your tank a chance to recover.
Fact is the myrmi is abit of a one trick poney and is, though overpowered, not unbeatable even with out the NOS nerf
That's fair... Like I said, the stats above really aren't "final draft", I guess... I know the direction of change I'd like to see, but I don't know EXACTLY what I'd like to see.
Actually, my preference would be for the Myrmidon to not be a drone ship at all. I'd like to see it be an ewar ship :)
I can't wait for a NOS nerf...
|
xenodia
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
stuff about nerfing myrmidon
No.
Finally drone users got a ship with both decent drone capacity AND enough powergrid to make usable fittings. I woulndt willingly give that up.
And as for the Brutix having inferior DPS, thats simply not true if you have good skills and fit it right. The brutix ends up having a little more DPS than a myrmidon, but not as solid a tank. Difference is brutix can be really good at either tanking or doing damage. Myrmidon can be pretty good at both at the same time. Brutix fails if you try to do both at once. That doesnt mean the myrmidon needs to be nerfed. That means its versatile, which was by design. Thats always been the hallmark of drone ships.
http://www.eve-ronacorp.com |
Upper Management
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: xenodia
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
stuff about nerfing myrmidon
No.
Quote:
Finally drone users got a ship with both decent drone capacity AND enough powergrid to make usable fittings. I woulndt willingly give that up.
Yeah... finally we get a ship we can gank AND tank. And gank really well, AND TANK really well! WOOHOOO!! 
Quote:
And as for the Brutix having inferior DPS, thats simply not true if you have good skills and fit it right. The brutix ends up having a little more DPS than a myrmidon, but not as solid a tank.
Dude, sure... I could stick neutron IIs on my brutix and use RCU and almost no tank and all that crap. But come on. Why even bother, when as you said its only a little more DPS than the Myrmidon, AND the Mymidon can tank and gank?
It doesn't add up.
And my skills are fine, tyvm. Rapid firing 5, medium blaster spec 4. My drone skills are vastly inferior (drone interfacing 5, but no tech 2 heavy drones yet)... and my myrmidon can still outdps my Brutix.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:19:00 -
[14]
Uhuh, "Upper Management" = me. Dummy jump clone corp holder... :)
|
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:24:00 -
[15]
ôMyrmidon
Tier 1
Highs: 5 (AT MOST 4 turret points)
Mids: 5
Lows: 5
(adjust PG/CPU accordingly, but have less PG/CPU than the Brutix)
Bonus 1: Drone damage bonus
Bonus 2: I'm not sure, really...ö
Bonus 2: 5% shield recharge speed per level sorry could not resist.
As for the highs donÆt forgot if you using gang assist then 4 or 5 turrets is not a lot.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:40:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:42:16
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:38:08
Figure I'd do this real quick:
Brutix, 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 496 dps
Brutix: 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 575 dps (with a gimpy tank)
Brutix: 7x Neutron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x Hammer II: 626 dps (WAAAAAY gimpy tank)
Myrmidon, 6x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 677 dps (with a FAR better tank)
Myrmidon, 4x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 597 dps (with a FAR better tank AND NOS!)
So, dude, tell me, what's this "correct setup" where the Brutix comes out slightly ahead?
Are you thinking:
Brutix, 7x Neutron II, 3x MFS II, void, 5x Hammer II: 790 dps?
Honestly, that isn't "set up right"... that's "utterly WHACK, yo!" Its a comedy setup that you undock when a corpmate asks you to test his tank. I mean, come on. Really.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Pottsey
Bonus 2: 5% shield recharge speed per level sorry could not resist.
Quote:
As for the highs donÆt forgot if you using gang assist then 4 or 5 turrets is not a lot.
Hmmm... you have a point, I kinda forgot.  So rarely see battlecruisers being used with gang mods 
|
Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:50:00 -
[18]
Sure Xori... nerf Myrmidon, but give me some drones that pry guns off other people's ships.
|
DiuxDium
Loot
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:52:00 -
[19]
I love my brutix as it is.
My T2 Heavy Neutron blasters belt out 600 raw DPS. Using an RCU II, I can fit a moderate tank, and a MWD. Any more than this isn't needed.
The myrmidon is overpowered in 1v1, and small very small gang combat. This is well known, and doesn't really matter.
The myrmidon does not cause the brutix to be obsolete, not by a long shot.
The drake on the other hand. 
------------------------------------------
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:52:06
Originally by: DiuxDium
I love my brutix as it is.
Don't get me wrong, dude, I love my Brutix too. I wish it was worthwhile to fly though.
Quote:
My T2 Heavy Neutron blasters belt out 600 raw DPS. Using an RCU II, I can fit a moderate tank, and a MWD. Any more than this isn't needed.
My stats above... I know they can do that, and that's nice... and the Myrmidon can fit a HEAVY tank and easily omgwtfdps all over a gank-brutix's face.
Quote:
The myrmidon is overpowered in 1v1, and small very small gang combat. This is well known, and doesn't really matter.
It matters, dude... it matters :S
Quote:
The myrmidon does not cause the brutix to be obsolete, not by a long shot.
How?
Quote:
The drake on the other hand.
:)
Don't get me started on the Drake... Passive shield tank = the new WCS (Wait... haven't we exchanged flames about the drake previously? I'm remembering something)
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 21:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:59:24
Originally by: Kruel
Sure Xori... nerf Myrmidon, but give me some drones that pry guns off other people's ships.
I would love that. LOL.
Yeah, drones can be killed, but it is difficult to kill them if the drone pilot:
- knows when to pull the drones off
- doesn't fight at range
- fits sensor damps
- is in a gang
... unless you just fit smarties... but then you gotta KNOW what you're going to be up against.
Seriously - we both know how easy it is to keep our drones from being killed.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:06:00 -
[22]
The simple change to the Myrmidon it this.
Bonus 1: 20% Bonus to Medium Drone Damage
Bonus 2: 5% reduction in MWD capacitor bonus
------
Basically the problems are
1: It tanks too much
2: It ganks too much
20% med drone damage bonus makes medium drones [2 flights + light backup] do as much damage as unbonunsed heavy Drones.
The Myrm is no longer doing battleship damage. And its Medium Drones are extra strong giving it better damage against smaller ships.
the second problem of it tanking too much[thus making the Brutix the tank BC and the Myrm the "gank" BC] is fixed by removing its tanking bonus and giving it a less powerful bonus.
Other options for bonuses besides the MWD cap bonus would be "non damage drone bonuses"
+5% Drone Velocity/level
+7.5% Drone Tracking/level
+10% Drone Optimal range/level
Etc.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 22:12:11
Originally by: Goumindong
The simple change to the Myrmidon it this.
Bonus 1: 20% Bonus to Medium Drone Damage
I like!
Quote:
Bonus 2: 5% reduction in MWD capacitor bonus
Useless bonus for large ships imo.
Quote:
Basically the problems are
1: It tanks too much
2: It ganks too much
Yup... that's the point I'm making...
Quote:
The Myrm is no longer doing battleship damage. And its Medium Drones are extra strong giving it better damage against smaller ships.
Yup! I like. This also would give the Myrmidon an actual role. \o/
Quote:
the second problem of it tanking too much[thus making the Brutix the tank BC and the Myrm the "gank" BC] is fixed by removing its tanking bonus and giving it a less powerful bonus.
Giving it a useful second bonus would be nice though... :) I liked: "+5% Drone Velocity/level".
PS. OOPS, now you know my Myrm setup... as if it was terribly hard to figure out eh?
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:19:00 -
[24]
Nope, I just looked at our killboards and extrapolated from there ;)
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Simon Jax
Gallente
Freedom Guard
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:28:00 -
[25]
Um. From the looks of things the Drake and Hurricane are both able to tank and out DPS their Tier 1 counterparts (Ferox and Cyclone). I can see where the oft-seen NOS setups could push the Myrmidon over the edge into disproportionate overpoweredness, but otherwise I fail to see why it shouldnÆt be a better all around ship simply due to the fact that it is the Tier 2 ship.
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more? Again, IÆm intentionally glossing over the NOS issue, after which the Mega can indeed be set up to outlast the Domi. Likewise with the Maller vs. Arbitrator, the Thorax vs. the Vexor. Glossing over the nano-gank setups the Tempest would put the hurt on the Typhoon, likewise the Rupture has the better of the Stabber.
It looks more to me that there are specific setups, NOS and Nano, that are pushing tier 1 ships over the edge to beat out their tier 2 counterparts, not their intended place. Tier 2 is intended to have advantages over tier 1.
From the look of your Brutix/Myrm comparisons youÆd need half again as many combat skillpoints to fly the Myrm as you would the Brutix. At the very least run the numbers with T1 Heavy Drones. Especially if youÆre giving the Myrm T2 Medium Blasters and Drone Interfacing V. Maybe the game should be balanced to perfect-build combat characters, so itÆs not like the comparison is invalid. But I could just be irked because youÆre trying to gimp one of my favorite ships.
Incidentally, very few other ships have such prominently obvious turret points. I can thing of a couple where you can see a circle or cut-out where a turret might be placed, but the line of six turrets along both sides of the Myrm makes it exceptionally pronounced that ôsix turrets go in a straight line hereö. You canÆt have less than six turret hardpoints placed in that line without a glaringly obvious lack. As such I can guarantee you they will not change the number of turret hardpoints on the Myrm.
--Wherever you go, there you are.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:31:00 -
[26]
Hurricane cant come close to out tanking a Cyclone while out-ganking it.
The Ferox and Drake are two competly different boats and provide roles that are so divergent they cant really be compared in terms of pure tank and DPS.
I.E. 130km rails make the equation a bit skewed.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
PathetiQ
Gallente
The Rat Pack
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:32:00 -
[27]
wow what a booring and useless post...
brutix ftw
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 22:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: PathetiQ
wow what a booring and useless post...
brutix ftw
If it was so boring and useless, why did you post it?
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:08:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 23:04:43
Originally by: Goumindong
Hurricane cant come close to out tanking a Cyclone while out-ganking it.
QFT
Quote:
The Ferox and Drake are two competly different boats and provide roles that are so divergent they cant really be compared in terms of pure tank and DPS.
QFT
Originally by: PathetiQ
wow what a booring and useless post...
Logic and reason is the candle to a troll's moth. (Or something)
|
Firane
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:11:00 -
[30]
Brutix just needs another low.
-----
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:17:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 23:19:34
Originally by: Simon Jax
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more?
Because CCP made the mineral requirements higher.
There are so so so many instances where "tier x > tier x - 1"... its not worth basing any arguments on :/
Quote:
Again, IÆm intentionally glossing over the NOS issue, after which the Mega can indeed be set up to outlast the Domi.
Gank domi might still fare just fine against the average mega :) Especially if you know how to fly it.
Quote:
Likewise with the Maller vs. Arbitrator, the Thorax vs. the Vexor.
I know how to kill those cruisers with a Vexor as well :)
Quote:
Glossing over the nano-gank setups the Tempest would put the hurt on the Typhoon, likewise the Rupture has the better of the Stabber.
Ignoring valid setups is not a valid argument. NOS is here, and it is here to stay, even if it gets nerfed it will be a powerful thing for droneships to use. Nano setups will go away, of course...
It reminds me of people duelling outside Ogrimmar in WOW... class X says to a healing class: "omg, if you didn't heal, I would have won!" Well, the healing class can heal, that's part of his class. If he didn't use it, he would be a fool, and the victory would be in vain.
Quote:
It looks more to me that there are specific setups, NOS and Nano, that are pushing tier 1 ships over the edge to beat out their tier 2 counterparts, not their intended place. Tier 2 is intended to have advantages over tier 1.
Wrong. :)
Tux himself has said (at the introduction of tier 3 BSes) that the motto was "different, not better". This has always been the case. Drake is not better than the Ferox. For some people, the Harbinger is better than the Prophecy, but that's because they think the Prophecy sucks. Same for Maelstrom/Tempest -> Typhoon.
The only consistantly "Better" thing about tier X over tier X-1 is: more slots, and typically more PG/CPU.
Nothing else can be argued consistantly.
Quote:
From the look of your Brutix/Myrm comparisons youÆd need half again as many combat skillpoints to fly the Myrm as you would the Brutix. At the very least run the numbers with T1 Heavy Drones. Especially if youÆre giving the Myrm T2 Medium Blasters and Drone Interfacing V. Maybe the game should be balanced to perfect-build combat characters, so itÆs not like the comparison is invalid. But I could just be irked because youÆre trying to gimp one of my favorite ships.
I'm just running the numbers with skills that I will have in the next month and a half, dude... that's all. I've only been in game for a bit over a year. The myrmidon is one of my favorite ships too. But I well realize that it is too strong.
Quote:
Incidentally, very few other ships have such prominently ob.......I can guarantee you they will not change the number of turret hardpoints on the Myrm.
I can pretty much guarantee you that CCP won't even see this post - and if they did, they don't care. Thus, I'll be flying my Myrmidon for a long long time. And I'll always miss my brutix <3.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:18:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Goumindong on 15/03/2007 23:14:59
Originally by: Firane
Brutix just needs another low.
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha.
ed: To be honest Xori, the prophecy does indeed suck.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:18:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 23:17:21
Originally by: Firane
Brutix just needs another low.
I like that, TBH. It would make the Brutix just a LITTLE bit uber though :)
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Firane
Brutix just needs another low.
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha.
hehehehe
Originally by: Goumindong
ed: To be honest Xori, the prophecy does indeed suck.
Noted :) Actually the reason I said that the way I said that was because I know you are watching this thread, and you have very strong opinions about Amarr :) And I'm undereducated about Amarr... I mean, I can identify REALLY awful setups, but that's about it.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.15 23:28:00 -
[34]
Eve mail me in game and ill let you know all about it.
The Prophecy isnt as bad as the Omen or Maller, but its still pretty bad.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Jackal79
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 00:07:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jackal79 on 16/03/2007 00:04:45
Say HELLOOOO HOOOOOO to the new mymidon!
5x highs (4 turrets)
5x mids
3x lows
1/4 current shield recharge rate
75m^3 drone bay
5% bonus to medium energy turret ROF
5% bonus to structure hitpoints per level (gives you more time to find a celestial object to warp your pod to)
...
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 00:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jackal79
Edited by: Jackal79 on 16/03/2007 00:04:45
Say HELLOOOO HOOOOOO to the new mymidon!
5x highs (4 turrets)
5x mids
3x lows
1/4 current shield recharge rate
75m^3 drone bay
5% bonus to medium energy turret ROF
5% bonus to structure hitpoints per level (gives you more time to find a celestial object to warp your pod to)
...
whuuuuhuhuhuhut?
That's nothing like anything that I proposed, dude?
|
DiuxDium
Loot
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 00:53:00 -
[37]
Edited by: DiuxDium on 16/03/2007 00:51:25
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Don't get me started on the Drake... Passive shield tank = the new WCS (Wait... haven't we exchanged flames about the drake previously? I'm remembering something)
Yeah we did. A few months ago I think. We both spend to much time on the forums arguing about ships.
I still don't believe the drake is an overpowered ship. Now that i've had more of a chance to fight them in small gang combat with my brutix, I retain this belief. It's more of an issue with shield tanking than the drake. The drake certainly does make the Ferox obsolete though. *Except during certain very unique cases of being used as a anti-support sniping platform*.
I still believe the brutix to *not* be obsolete. For two reasons.
1) A damage bonus. 25% bonus is nothing to scoff at.
2) 7 Turrets.
3) I hate baby-sitting drones.
I added the third one, because it's a personal preference. The brutix doesn't need a boost though, the myrm just needs a nerf. (100m3 drone bay, and it's fine).
------------------------------------------
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:00:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 16/03/2007 00:57:38
Tier 2 is not better then tier 1. (fact)
Tier 2 has more slots then tier 1. (fact)
Brutix has almost always constant DPS while Myrmidon's DPS is much more flexable. (drone fact)
-----------------------------------------------------------
A myrmidon's DPS is high only while using drones it can not replace. Typically when counting in for drone boosted DPS, you divide drone max of that size and bound down. So now calculate DPS of a Myrmidon while using two drones.
-----------------------------------------------------------
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:17:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/03/2007 01:15:29
Originally by: DiuxDium
It's more of an issue with shield tanking than the drake.
Yeah, agreed, 100%. That's a discussion for another thread though :)
Quote:
2) 7 Turrets.
I am a gun freak. I'm nearing the end of my tree for Hybrids. After I finish Hybrids and get tech 2 heavies, I'm going to start getting arties and ACs to tech 2 large. When Amarr is buffed, I'll do the same with those.
Quote:
3) I hate baby-sitting drones.
Same
Quote:
I added the third one, because it's a personal preference. The brutix doesn't need a boost though, the myrm just needs a nerf. (100m3 drone bay, and it's fine).
MMmmm, maybe... I dunno. I think the fix is to rework how drone bonuses and control amounts work. Ie. the Myrmidon should be able to control 4 heavies, OR 5 mediums... like a "drone control point" system... but it should still have enough drone space to hold backups :/
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:25:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Corwain on 16/03/2007 01:22:34
I've been thinking that the Myrm is extremely overpowered for a while now and have been thinking of making a similar post as the OP, however I disagree with the solutions he suggests. I think that the slot layout and number of turret hardpoints are fine. I think instead the Myrm should be like the other droneboats and have its hybrid bonus back instead of tanking bonus and limit its powergrid.
Let me explain my reasoning: when setting up most ships you need to choose to drop one thing in favor of another because of fitting or slots. the Myrm has such even slots that you're not lacking in any area.
For example the Thorax suffers as a blasterboat because you must choose between cap injector and webber because it has only 3 mids.
Another example is the Dominix whose powergrid is so limited that it must use a fitting mod to fit a rack of electrons, mwd, cap injector and 1 LAR II.
But the Myrm can fit EVERYTHING, no need to choose between tanking, or ganking, or even between a webber or cap injector. In fact it has the flexibility to fit EWar on top of the essentials.
Now I'm not saying to nerf the Myrms powergrid that badly, but I find it rediculous that you can easily fit a half rack of ions, half electrons, 2 MAR IIs, MWD and Cap injector, then choose between damage mods and tank. I think it should only have the PG for electrons, and only have 1 MAR II. With every other ship you have to choose between tank and gank, being cap injected or having mobility. With the Myrm you can have both.
And don't even get me started on the nos setup, imagine a supertanked Pilgrim with a MWD and cap injector and no cloaking capability.
Even then though the Brutix doesn't do anywhere near as much DPS as a Myrm with comparable tanks, so I suggest giving the Brutix a bit more powergrid to fit bigger guns.
A few numbers:
Myrmidon w/ my skills:
203dps from 3x Modal Ions, 3x Modal Electrons, 1x Magstab II
391dps from 5x Ogre IIs
Total: 594 dps
Tank: 2 MAR II, 2x EAMN II, 1x DC II, Medium Electrochemical w/ 400s or 800s
Brutix
280dps from 5x Modal Electrons, 2x Modal Ions, 1x Magstb II
(only 77 more DPS from guns than the Myrm)
134 dps 5x Hammerhead IIs
Total: 414 dps
Tank: 1 MAR II, 2x EANM II, 1x DC II, Medium Electrochemical w/ 400s or 800s
The Myrm does almost 200dps more than the Brutix when both are in blaster config. In addition the Myrm has an extra mid to play with, and had double the armor repping potential. I see no reason to EVER use the Brutix again.
So, in conclusion:
Limit powergrid to acommodate 1 MAR II, 6x Electrons, Cap injector and MWD just barely.
Remove Armor Rep bonus and give Hybrid bonus back.
This results in a bit better DPS but a much weaker tank, which would stop the Myrm from taking on 3 BCs at once. 
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:30:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/03/2007 01:27:54
Originally by: Corwain
So, in conclusion:
Limit powergrid to acommodate 1 MAR II, 6x Electrons, Cap injector and MWD just barely.
Remove Armor Rep bonus and give Hybrid bonus back.
Very interesting. Actually, I quite like it. Make it a GANK ship. A gank ship that can't tank that well (as it really should be)!
Cheers! Well done!
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:45:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 16/03/2007 01:42:39
Originally by: Corwain
Myrmidon w/ my skills:
203dps from 3x Modal Ions, 3x Modal Electrons, 1x Magstab II
391dps from 5x Ogre IIs
Total: 594 dps
Tank: 2 MAR II, 2x EAMN II, 1x DC II, Medium Electrochemical w/ 400s or 800s
Brutix
280dps from 5x Modal Electrons, 2x Modal Ions, 1x Magstb II
(only 77 more DPS from guns than the Myrm)
134 dps 5x Hammerhead IIs
Total: 414 dps
Tank: 1 MAR II, 2x EANM II, 1x DC II, Medium Electrochemical w/ 400s or 800s
The Myrm does almost 200dps more than the Brutix when both are in blaster config. In addition the Myrm has an extra mid to play with, and had double the armor repping potential. I see no reason to EVER use the Brutix again.
If you are going to compair the two use max stats for each so you know the true power of each one. If you are using T2 heavies you have alot more into drones then what you could of used in AWU. With skills maxed you could fit a brutix with:
Brutix:(no rig)
High
6x Heavy Ion II
1x Heavy Electron II
Medium
1x Y-T8 Overcharge HydroCarbon I Microwarpdrive
1x Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
1x Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
1x Warp Disrupter
Low
1x Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Damage Control II
1x Magnetic Field Stabalizer II
Also you will have to lower the drone DPS worth because if your that close normaly your will be scoop and droping the drones each time they get shot at or, if they get destroyed befor you notice this is going on.
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 01:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
If you are going to compair the two use max stats for each so you know the true power of each one. If you are using T2 heavies you have alot more into drones then what you could of used in AWU.
You're right on about my skills. I have 2.5mil in drones and only 1mil in gunnery.
While your skills and setup might bring the DPS closer to even it doesn't change the fact that the Myrm is doing all this while tanking twice as much as the Brute, so the only reason you'd ever want to choose the Brute over the Myrm is if you're strapped for ISK, but if you've got the skills to kit it out like that you're probly gonna have the ISK to upgrade from Tier 1 to Tier 2.
|
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
The Cyrene Initiative
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:07:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 16/03/2007 02:10:06
It's very interesting to see all of you calculating the stats of both Brutix and Myrmidon with the highest tier possible guns and drones (for Myrmidon only).
Fact 1 Not all people go to combat with 5 heavies II. Or even the setups here.
Although i agree that the DPS are following an almost linear equation with the fitting.
Fact 2 All of the posts i read here are suggesting that the Brutix is fighting with his guns only and has no drone bay.
So what's the deal? Can anyone for once post a DPS calculation for a Brutix including the fact that it can also field 5xmediums either t1 or t2? Or it's not suitable to do that, for the purpose of nerfing a good ship?
(EDIT: I misread the guys above me post (first post) and he did include drones in both. So we have a half attempt since there is a big difference in the sp allocated to drones and gunnery.)
In fact these drones are also more good than the Myrmidon ones, since they always get ignored by the opponent and continue their work without any problems from bullets.
On the other hand the Myrmidon drones are usually getting the "privilege" to be named primaries and either get back in a drone bay (reducing thus the DPS of a Myrmidon) or go pop. While at the same time the Myrmidon gets a drone bonus and not a gun bonus.
So far i see nothing that resembles a fair comparison.
-------
Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:18:00 -
[45]
It's very interesting to see all of you calculating the stats of both Brutix and Myrmidon with the highest tier possible guns and drones (for Myrmidon only).
Fact 1 Not all people go to combat with 5 heavies II. Or even the setups here.
You're right. I use 4x Heavy IIs and keep 5x Warrior IIs in the bay to chase off intys. With the scoop and drop and the fact that its point blank cause of blasters anyways unless there's a lot of lag you're not likely to lose heavy drones, thus it's dumb not to use at least 4 of em.
Fact 2 All of the posts i read here are suggesting that the Brutix is fighting with his guns only and has no drone bay.
Read my post again, I'd never put my drones SP to waste. With 5x Hammerhead IIs and no Drone Interfacing V the Brutix does about 134 DPS from drones. That is in my calculations if you actually read the posts in the thread.
So what's the deal? Can anyone for once post a DPS calculation for a Brutix including the fact that it can also field 5xmediums either t1 or t2? Or it's not suitable to do that, for the purpose of nerfing a good ship?
Read my first post in this thread...
In fact these drones are also more good than the Myrmidon ones, since they always get ignored by the opponent and continue their work without any problems from bullets.
Actually an arbitrator will go strait for your drones since your guns can't hit it anyways and it can't tank your drones...that fact aside the Myrm is not likely to lose drones if you're a competent drone pilot and are at point blank range.
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
If you are going to compair the two use max stats for each so you know the true power of each one. If you are using T2 heavies you have alot more into drones then what you could of used in AWU.
You're right on about my skills. I have 2.5mil in drones and only 1mil in gunnery.
While your skills and setup might bring the DPS closer to even it doesn't change the fact that the Myrm is doing all this while tanking twice as much as the Brute, so the only reason you'd ever want to choose the Brute over the Myrm is if you're strapped for ISK, but if you've got the skills to kit it out like that you're probly gonna have the ISK to upgrade from Tier 1 to Tier 2.
To be honest if you are using blasters and not nos is it easier to kill you. The difference is in the fact if your drones get poped that is atleast 50% of your Damage, so that lowers dps right there and permanantly for that fight.
Now if you constantly draw in your drones then deploy them, that will just lower down your dps atleast a volley maybe even two per time of going that so it only matter if you have the brutix damped badly and then how long the drones will be out is paportionate to my lock time.
Given time the drones will still be lost from alpha of the turrets leaking heavily into armor of the drones. Not to count about the random AI that might have your drones attack my drones and not me if not baby sat.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:34:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/03/2007 02:32:22
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Fact 2 All of the posts i read here are suggesting that the Brutix is fighting with his guns only and has no drone bay.
So what's the deal? Can anyone for once post a DPS calculation for a Brutix including the fact that it can also field 5xmediums either t1 or t2?
Put down your ***** pipe.
Read my posts.
They all include Hammer IIs in the brutix's DPS.
EDIT: Here, I'll even quote it for you.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:42:16
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 21:38:08
Figure I'd do this real quick:
Brutix, 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 496 dps
Brutix: 2x Ion II, 5x Electron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x hammer II: 575 dps (with a gimpy tank)
Brutix: 7x Neutron II, WITH MFS II, void, 5x Hammer II: 626 dps (WAAAAAY gimpy tank)
Myrmidon, 6x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 677 dps (with a FAR better tank)
Myrmidon, 4x Electron II, no MFS II, void, 5x Ogre II w/DI5: 597 dps (with a FAR better tank AND NOS!)
|
Derran
Minmatar
Khumatari Holdings
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:55:00 -
[48]
What makes the Myrmidon overpowered exactly? My armor rigged Myrmidon went up against a shield rigged Drake and I lost. I have BC 5 to his 4. Without going into details, I have 59.5M SP and caldari and gallente specialized. All he had to do was pick off my drones. I couldn't scoop them faster than he could kill them.
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 02:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Derran
What makes the Myrmidon overpowered exactly? My armor rigged Myrmidon went up against a shield rigged Drake and I lost. I have BC 5 to his 4. Without going into details, I have 59.5M SP and caldari and gallente specialized. All he had to do was pick off my drones. I couldn't scoop them faster than he could kill them.
Nos,damp, dual rep tank myrm one on one is what is super.
Nos, fees armor tank and stop cap from foe,
Damp, makes lock time even longer.
Dual rep, enough said.
|
Plymer Ization
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 03:22:00 -
[50]
Removing the rep bonus from the Myrmidon and replacing it with something gankier would leave me nothing to complain about this ship.
I never completely understood why half of the Tier 2 BCs get their Tier 1 counterpart's tanking bonuses as well as better DPS on top of it... Tux DID say he wanted the Tier 2s to be the gankers, while the tier 1s would be the tankers. NOT both. 
And while we're at it, gimme my 7th turret on the Hurricane please
|
Gamble Dakota
Immortalis Silens
Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:18:00 -
[51]
Quote:
If Tier X > Tier X-1, then:
Apoc is better than Geddon
Megathron is better than Dominix
Rokh is better than Raven
Tempest is better than Phoon
Moa is better than Caracal
Maller is better than Arbitrator
Rupture is better than Stabber
Er, most of those are true, assuming the affiliated skills are maxed for both and you're assuming utility use, non role specialized.
-------------------------------------------------
Originally by: "Nir"
There is no place for morality in EVE.
I find the correct answer is rarely the truthful one.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Derran
What makes the Myrmidon overpowered exactly? My armor rigged Myrmidon went up against a shield rigged Drake and I lost. I have BC 5 to his 4. Without going into details, I have 59.5M SP and caldari and gallente specialized. All he had to do was pick off my drones. I couldn't scoop them faster than he could kill them.
Just because the drake is also overpowered doesn't mean that the myrmidon isn't overpowered ;)
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:35:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/03/2007 04:33:17
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/03/2007 04:32:50
Originally by: Gamble Dakota
Quote:
If Tier X > Tier X-1, then:
Apoc is better than Geddon
Megathron is better than Dominix
Rokh is better than Raven
Tempest is better than Phoon
Moa is better than Caracal
Maller is better than Arbitrator
Rupture is better than Stabber
Er, most of those are true, assuming the affiliated skills are maxed for both and you're assuming utility use, non role specialized.
LOL...every one of those is complete bull****.
So is your statement. I'm considering utility. "Role specialized" IS ******* "utility". So yeah, I'm considering roles.
(Except for the tempest > phoon one, that may be true soon... even so, the phoon will still have its uses. It will still be capable of a far better tank than the pest... ;))
|
Benglada
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Fraile Cloudsinger
Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. .
False. Myrm is better in both cases.
---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected])
Sig By Ortos |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 04:41:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Benglada
Originally by: Fraile Cloudsinger
Tier 2 > Tier 1
If you got decent gunnery skills, take the brutix, if you got decent drone skills take the myrmidon. .
False. Myrm is better in both cases.
Correct.
That's why I use the Myrmidon - even though I can't even use tech 2 heavies yet.
|
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 10:54:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Pottsey on 16/03/2007 10:51:45
ôWhat makes the Myrmidon overpowered exactly? My armor rigged Myrmidon went up against a shield rigged Drake and I lost.ö
Thats your problem your amour tanking. Its overpowered when you passive shield tank as you get x10 to x12 more HP regen then 1 amour repairer even with the bonus on max to amour tanking repair amount. As a shield tank the Myrmidon is overpowered and way tougher then an amour tank. T1 BC's should not be tanking way over 1000dps. Even with a PvP setup you can get a crasy tank and still have ab, scram, web e.c.t
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Tanox
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 13:29:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 16/03/2007 10:51:45
ôWhat makes the Myrmidon overpowered exactly? My armor rigged Myrmidon went up against a shield rigged Drake and I lost.ö
Thats your problem your amour tanking. Its overpowered when you passive shield tank as you get x10 to x12 more HP regen then 1 amour repairer even with the bonus on max to amour tanking repair amount. As a shield tank the Myrmidon is overpowered and way tougher then an amour tank. T1 BC's should not be tanking way over 1000dps. Even with a PvP setup you can get a crasy tank and still have ab, scram, web e.c.t
Would it be possible to make a good setup with MWD, web and scrambler/disruptor aswell - without the gang bonus?
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 14:45:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Agreew with OP. MAke Brutix the tier 2 anc change slot layout.
change the brutix? so then readjust alot of things including the balance of the command ships of the brutix meaning more problems then before..
|
Almarez
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 15:04:00 -
[59]
I think you are forgetting something. Tier II BC's are supposed to be much better damage dealers. Where the tier I BC's were supposed to be tankers the tier II ones were supposed to be DPS machines. The problem isn't that the Myrmidon is overpowered it's that the Brutix is. It has massive DPS for a tier I BC. It has the same damage bonus as the Harbinger, with a better bonus for tanking as the Harby waste's a bonus on cap reduction of lasers and it has the same drone bay as the Harby. I would love to compare numbers but CCP hasn't updated the item database yet.
That being said, I don't think that they shouldn't nerf the Brutix or anything like that because if it were so overpowered then I would see a lot more flying around. The real strength of the Myr is it's flexibility. It is basically a large Vexor, or a small Domi, if you want to look at it that way. The DPS with blasters and drones is probably somewhat above its couterparts but I have never been the type of player that worries about one ship being slightly better at one role than another ship.
|
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 17:07:00 -
[60]
ôWould it be possible to make a good setup with MWD, web and scrambler/disruptor aswell - without the gang bonus?ö
Yes itÆs about the same as a dual amour setup without the gang bonus and better with.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 17:12:00 -
[61]
The strongest thing about the myrmidon is tank and drones. The brutix lacks in that area, but the brutix also performs better at range.
So what I'm saying is, the brutix is a much better gang ship, or fleet support ship. The myrmidon is a good solo ship, or small 2-3 man gang ship.
I think its a pretty good balance actually.
Compare that with the cyclone/hurricane. The hurricane outperforms the cyclone at EVERYTHING.
Shamis
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
MASS HOMICIDE
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 17:54:00 -
[62]
Not true A Cycloen outtanks the HUrricane so much that it can EASILY defeat a hurricane. A Cycloen will punch 3 NOS on the HUrricane and tank it completely until the HUrricane is out of cap.
The hurricane is far more versatile, but it does not completely outpserform the cyclone.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Khavi Vetali
Team Americas
Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 18:01:00 -
[63]
Since the Myrm is a tier 2 ship leave it's powergrid, slot layout, etc, alone. Leave the drone bay, leave the bonuses, etc. Just saw off some turret hardpoints, like two. That would do it in my opinion.
Originally by: Itanis
"Hello there mate, I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm going to have to sodomize you with howitzers. Have a lovely day!"
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 18:07:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Since the Myrm is a tier 2 ship leave it's powergrid, slot layout, etc, alone. Leave the drone bay, leave the bonuses, etc. Just saw off some turret hardpoints, like two. That would do it in my opinion.
I would say saw one off to to make it in the middle of a domi and a vexor
|
Angus McLean
Gallente
Divinity Trials
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 19:10:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Simon Jax
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more?
Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's .
It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No.
----------------
Freedom Of Speech
Band of Brothers T-shirt |
Fokus
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 19:16:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Fokus on 16/03/2007 19:28:01
I will say that I agree with you. The Myrmidon is ridiculous. It has greater damage potential than most battleships in the game and it can tank almost just as well. It should at least have its drone bay dropped to 100m3 from 125m3, and its 6 turrets reduced to 4. And I would suspect maybe one less mid slot would also be good. I really dont like flying a Myrmidon because it is twice as effective as a hurricane for a Minmatar pilot...it just..isnt right. Lets put this thing back in line.
|
Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
New Age Solutions Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 19:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Angus McLean
Originally by: Simon Jax
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more?
Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's .
It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No.
Yay for using the broken T2 market as a point of reference for cost-performance analysis.
Now, then, welcome to Failsville. You took a wrong turn, going down Resell Price Ave. instead of Build Cost Blvd. Please turn the car around, give the kids a fresh set of batteries for their Gameboys to shut them the **** up, and get back on the road.
Originally by: Splagada
SEED ME DADDY
Down with alts! One character per account per IP! |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 19:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Angus McLean
Originally by: Simon Jax
If tier 2 ships arenÆt supposed to be better in some way then why do they cost so damn much more?
Wow I had a good laugh with this one. Sure thing mate, thats why all the Command ships are less expensive than HaC's, because they suck compared to HaC's .
It has nothing to do with which ships are better really, its about who has the skills to use them. As it were I can get my absolution for 120mil while Zealot for 175mil...Does this mean the Zealot outganks and outtanks the Absolution? No.
You can't use t2 market logic on a T1 industry, sorry.
|
Adamantium Beam
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 20:59:00 -
[69]
Swap the low slots and PG between these two ships.
The brutix wil be more pew pew and the myrm less imba and it will be fine.
|
Aries Acheron
The Valour
United Confederation of Corporations
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 21:15:00 -
[70]
Of all the Battlecruisers, the Brutix does not need a change one bit. Let's see why, shall we?
The Hurricane makes the Cyclone obsolete for most uses.
The Harbinger makes the Prophecy obsolete for all except a bit of tanking.
The Drake makes the Ferox obsolete for 95% of uses, save being a crappy sniper.
The Brutix is fine, compared to the Myrm. IT has a use as a better ranged sniper or a close range blasterboat.
~~~
Action! Suspense! Jita!
Eve Tribune
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 21:34:00 -
[71]
Looks like the most recent argument against in this thread is that all the Tier2 BCs make the Tier1s look silly. And if I was the OP this is something I would have brought up. The Tier2s were never supposed to be better in every way than the Tier1s, just different. This is a problem with all the Tier2s vs. their Tier1 counterparts, it is simply the most obvious with the Myrm (and Drake as close second).
When the new BCs were announced they were supposedly going to be have more gank but no tanking bonus. Apparently that fell by the wayside in the design process and instead they were made to be "HAC killers".
So yes, your point is correct almost all the new BCs make the old ones obsolete. This does not mean that thats what SHOULD be, and is no excuse for the Myrm to be so extremely powerful compared to the Brutix. Fix all the BCs, just discuss how to fix em in another thread.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 21:50:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Corwain
Looks like the most recent argument against in this thread is that all the Tier2 BCs make the Tier1s look silly. And if I was the OP this is something I would have brought up. The Tier2s were never supposed to be better in every way than the Tier1s, just different.
Read the ******* thread.
I have brought it up OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.
|
Arcalane Celso
Caldari
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 22:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Not true A Cycloen outtanks the HUrricane so much that it can EASILY defeat a hurricane. A Cycloen will punch 3 NOS on the HUrricane and tank it completely until the HUrricane is out of cap.
The hurricane is far more versatile, but it does not completely outpserform the cyclone.
Any Hurricane pilot could likewise do the same to your precious Cyclone with 2-3 NOS, and then smash your tank by running you out of cap, thusly disabling your shield booster and shutting down your shield recharge. After that it just has to punch through armour/shields to dispose of the rest, and cap is rarely an issue for `matari ships due to no capacitor use for autocannons/howitzers.
NOSes cut both ways. :>
With proper skills, either pilot could have a decent passive or active tank against any or all damage types. Although it's obvious that the Hurricane seems geared more towards armour tanking than shield tanking than the Cyclone. All ships have their strengths and weaknesses, and any defense can be broken given time, persistance and sufficient application of force.
Still, it's interesting to hear about the Myrmidon's capabilities, which also makes me thankful I was lucky enough to avoid unpleasantries with one some time ago. That was an amusing situation I shall not recount, and should best be described as "out of the frying pan and into the fire", although I am again thankful it had enough thermal resistance to tank that little encounter!
~~
I'm in ur belts minin' ur roids. |
Lydia Browm
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 22:57:00 -
[74]
just leave it as it is please, Drone Ships have been hard to fit all this time, try fitting dual LAR and cap injector and then see how much pg u have on a domi, try fitting dual rep, cap injector on vexor, just leave it as it is, if your gonna change anything leave everything as it is but reduce turret slots down to 3 leave every other stat unchanged
___________________________________________
Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty... |
madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
|
Posted - 2007.03.16 23:45:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Another idea: Why not an ewar ship?
Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this.
Myrmidon:
Highs: 5 or 4
Mids: 6 or 7
Lows: 5
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship
Ow yeh, damps ftw. Some damprigs on that = immortal drones meohahahah 
_________________________________________________
Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 00:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: madaluap
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Another idea: Why not an ewar ship?
Buff the Brutix to "tier 2" level (perhaps just like above) Make the Myrmidon an ewar ship. I would absolutely LOVE to see this.
Myrmidon:
Highs: 5 or 4
Mids: 6 or 7
Lows: 5
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Honestly I'm not sure whether this is overpowered or not... Maybe drop a midslot? I just would really love to have another Gallente ewar ship
Ow yeh, damps ftw. Some damprigs on that = immortal drones meohahahah
Did you read what I said?
Here, let me quote:
Quote:
Highs: 5 or 4
Mids: 6 or 7
Lows: 5
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Yeah... it wouldn't be a drone ship, it would be an ewar ship. It would just have enough drone bay to contribute a little damage and maybe get inties off its back... just like the Celestis.
|
madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 00:22:00 -
[77]
Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14
yaaay,
5* blaster 2
ew power+other goodies
good tank with 5 lows.
5* T2 hammerhead
Or
5* railguns 2
Large shieldextenders+invul
pdu, shield relays...
5* hammerhead 2
= Pottsey loving you 
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
_________________________________________________
Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 00:34:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:31:00
Originally by: madaluap
Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14
yaaay,
5* blaster 2
ew power+other goodies
good tank with 5 lows.
5* T2 hammerhead
Or
5* railguns 2
Large shieldextenders+invul
pdu, shield relays...
5* hammerhead 2
= Pottsey loving you
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
Better than reducing the drone bay would be to give it a drone damage bonus to med drones only instead of the optimal range bonus or effectiveness bonus for the damps.
That way it can carry spares.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 00:42:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:40:56
Harby should be doing similar DPS with pulse compared to a brutix.
A similar brutix will tank better[it will be using elctrons], but the range of the Harbies pulses would balance that fact heavily in gangs. A brutix that eekes out more damage the Harbinger will have a very light tank which, while the Harbinger will also have a very light tank, means that you are now directly in the damage vs range comparison, making the Harbinger better for Gangs and the Brutix better solo.
It would be [almost, but not quite due to lower HP totals on cruisers] like giving the Omen 5 turrets a damage[and not rof] bonus and a 50 cube drone bay. At which point it would be near directly comparable to the thorax if the thorax were to get a tanking bonus.[Note that the above is an example, a 5 turret, 50 cube Omen would be ridiculous]
The issues with the BCs are this
1) The Myrmidon is overpowered. It fills every role as well or better than its competitors. It tanks, it ganks, it tanks and ganks, it noses, it rail/sentry snipes.
It does these things better than its teir 1 equivelent without giving anything up. The Hurricane can tank better than a Cyclone, but in order to do so, must lose DPS against the Cyclone[and cant fit gang mods]. The Drake does not have the capacity to utterly ream frigates from over 100km away[while still fitting gang mods and other juicy options] or deal instant damage to any target at any range. The Harbinger doesnt tank anywhere near the Prophecy even though the Prophecy is fairly useless for doing anything but ratting/missioning Sansha and Blood or being a gang mod platform.
The Myrmidon does all these things better than the Brutix. It has an easier time fiting gang mods, does more DPS when fitted gank[and tank], has the same or longer range. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It should also be noted that there is an imbalance within the teir 1 battlecruisers, where the Brutix just cleans house in all categories[its the best close and medium range damage, best usefull tank, etc] except long range damage[Ferox is once it surpasses the Brutixs optimal]
Such that the three simple answers to the issues are
1: Nerf the Myrm: To compensate, reduce its drawbacks
2: Boost the Ferox, Prophecy, and Cyclone
3: Boost the Harbinger, just because it needs 8 turrets in order to not look funny.
Myrm has no slot or stat changes except:
Bonus 1 Becomes:
20% Drone Hit Points and Damage Bonus for Medium Drones
and
Bonus 2 Becomes:
Sensor Damp effectiveness/hybrid damage/drone velocity
For number 2:
Ferox and Cyclone get another turret and mid slot:
Prophecy gets 25% damage bonus and 50% energy cap use special ability, and a 7th low[in addition to the tank bonus]
Brutix gains a 7th low and 8th, utiltiy high and powergrid/cpu to fit a gang mod.
For number 3: Harbinger gets 8 turrets, 50% cap use special ability, and a tracking bonus.
Alternatly, cut all laser cap use by 40-45% and start giving amarr ships second bonuses.
Now you have situations where:
Cylone tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Hurricane.
Prophecy tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Harbinger[minus the mid slot/low slot conversion thing].
Ferox is no longer out-damaged at all ranges against the Brutix and gains more versitilty in the mids.
Brutix gets balanced inbetween the gank of the teir 2 BCs and the tank of the teir 1 BCs.
Myrmidon ganks better than Brutix but doesnt tank as well.[with damage bonus, or ewars instead of damage for ewar, or becomes drone supremacy boat]
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 00:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: madaluap
Edited by: madaluap on 17/03/2007 00:19:14
yaaay,
5* blaster 2
ew power+other goodies
good tank with 5 lows.
5* T2 hammerhead
Or
5* railguns 2
Large shieldextenders+invul
pdu, shield relays...
5* hammerhead 2
= Pottsey loving you
(Decrease drone bay to 50)
Bonus 1: Sensor damp effectiveness (ala Celestis)
Bonus 2: Sensor damp optimal range bonus
It would be sortof a weakass ship though... no damage bonus, etc. An ewar ship with gang mods would be awsome. IMO Gallente REALLY badly need an ewar ship that isn't a cruiser... we need something with range, etc...
|
Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 03:16:00 -
[81]
Just consider the Brutix a cheap version of the Deimos which is FAR FAR FAR worse off than the Brutix.
If you actually wanted a Brutix upgrade fly an Astarte, its got that extra low slot you wanted and is great for short and mid range gank.. No wish list to CCP needed.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.17 04:22:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Rastigan
If you actually wanted a Brutix upgrade fly an Astarte, its got that extra low slot you wanted and is great for short and mid range gank.. No wish list to CCP needed
It's on my list, mate! :D :D
|
Galen Silas
Gallente
Mean Corp
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 13:54:00 -
[83]
I think what needs to be looked at is the ships which are a tier lower than the other are going to not as good, makes sense for the myrm to be better. It's a brand new ship in terms of release, technology has advanced making it better, in terms of eve speak.
Another bit of confusion I think is going on is the fact that the 2 previous examples of lower tier ships(vexor, domi) are both drone boats. Not hating on the OP but this must be taken into consideration.
|
Kittamaru
Gallente
TARDZ
Gods of Night and Day
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 15:23:00 -
[84]
Brutix > Myrm in gatecamps and ganks
Why?
Turrets = imediate damage. Drones have to fly to the target. I can sit my brutix 55km off the gate and deal around 500 dps with nearly 98% accuracy using 3x T2 Mag Stabs, 7x of the top T1 named railguns and Iridium ammo. Granted, my "tank" consists of a mediocre shield tank, but it's just enough to get out of the way if something too hot to handle comes thru.
And T2 Hammerheads add a nice touch :D
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
MASS HOMICIDE
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 15:28:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 17/03/2007 00:40:56
Harby should be doing similar DPS with pulse compared to a brutix.
A similar brutix will tank better[it will be using elctrons], but the range of the Harbies pulses would balance that fact heavily in gangs. A brutix that eekes out more damage the Harbinger will have a very light tank which, while the Harbinger will also have a very light tank, means that you are now directly in the damage vs range comparison, making the Harbinger better for Gangs and the Brutix better solo.
It would be [almost, but not quite due to lower HP totals on cruisers] like giving the Omen 5 turrets a damage[and not rof] bonus and a 50 cube drone bay. At which point it would be near directly comparable to the thorax if the thorax were to get a tanking bonus.[Note that the above is an example, a 5 turret, 50 cube Omen would be ridiculous]
The issues with the BCs are this
1) The Myrmidon is overpowered. It fills every role as well or better than its competitors. It tanks, it ganks, it tanks and ganks, it noses, it rail/sentry snipes.
It does these things better than its teir 1 equivelent without giving anything up. The Hurricane can tank better than a Cyclone, but in order to do so, must lose DPS against the Cyclone[and cant fit gang mods]. The Drake does not have the capacity to utterly ream frigates from over 100km away[while still fitting gang mods and other juicy options] or deal instant damage to any target at any range. The Harbinger doesnt tank anywhere near the Prophecy even though the Prophecy is fairly useless for doing anything but ratting/missioning Sansha and Blood or being a gang mod platform.
The Myrmidon does all these things better than the Brutix. It has an easier time fiting gang mods, does more DPS when fitted gank[and tank], has the same or longer range. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It should also be noted that there is an imbalance within the teir 1 battlecruisers, where the Brutix just cleans house in all categories[its the best close and medium range damage, best usefull tank, etc] except long range damage[Ferox is once it surpasses the Brutixs optimal]
Such that the three simple answers to the issues are
1: Nerf the Myrm: To compensate, reduce its drawbacks
2: Boost the Ferox, Prophecy, and Cyclone
3: Boost the Harbinger, just because it needs 8 turrets in order to not look funny.
Myrm has no slot or stat changes except:
Bonus 1 Becomes:
20% Drone Hit Points and Damage Bonus for Medium Drones
and
Bonus 2 Becomes:
Sensor Damp effectiveness/hybrid damage/drone velocity
For number 2:
Ferox and Cyclone get another turret and mid slot:
Prophecy gets 25% damage bonus and 50% energy cap use special ability, and a 7th low[in addition to the tank bonus]
Brutix gains a 7th low and 8th, utiltiy high and powergrid/cpu to fit a gang mod.
For number 3: Harbinger gets 8 turrets, 50% cap use special ability, and a tracking bonus.
Alternatly, cut all laser cap use by 40-45% and start giving amarr ships second bonuses.
Now you have situations where:
Cylone tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Hurricane.
Prophecy tanks 33% better and does 25% less damage than Harbinger[minus the mid slot/low slot conversion thing].
Ferox is no longer out-damaged at all ranges against the Brutix and gains more versitilty in the mids.
Brutix gets balanced inbetween the gank of the teir 2 BCs and the tank of the teir 1 BCs.
Myrmidon ganks better than Brutix but doesnt tank as well.[with damage bonus, or ewars instead of damage for ewar, or becomes drone supremacy boat]
that would make me as happy as a kid in christmas morning. True balance (welle xcpet the laser stuff.. because just cutting its cost make the usable by all races and they DO have higher base DPS than projectiles for example.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 15:52:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 19/03/2007 16:03:23
i wounder is it the drone issue or is it simply the issue with the myrm having the tank bonus like the drake having a tank bonus?
change the myrm bonus to turret boost in way ot domi and change drake bonus to rof in way of raven. Will this solve everything?
Changing myrm to a damp bonus is overkill.
Reason? Tier two were suposed to be gankers not tankers but myrm and drake have tanking bonuses.
Please inform me if this small shift does not fix everything?
[EDIT]
Hurricane should get it's 7th turret back to be fair.
Harbinger could get more PG, CPU for turrets and maybe give it back it's ROF ability. (I don't fly them i only heard it was changed to a DMG bonus) Not a 8th gun as then it would have more guns then most battleships.
|
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 17:16:00 -
[87]
Wahhhh someone killed me with a Myrmidon.
The T2 BCs were presented as the natural progression of an arms race. We don't normally see arms races to make things "different". In fact, arms races exist to make things that are different only to the extent that they are "better" and, by "better" it is meant "more effective". As a builder, seller, reseller, and PVP alt player, I can tell you that the T1 BCs are all but dead in the market. All of them. The Brutix sells better than any of the others but still slowly compared even to Amarr T2 BCs.
I don't mean to stifle your precious creativity, but there's nothing to see here. Please move along.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 18:09:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 19/03/2007 18:10:12
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Wahhhh someone killed me with a Myrmidon....I don't mean to stifle your precious creativity, but there's nothing to see here. Please move along.
LOL... as I predicted, someone who failed to actually read the post.
Post with your main, nublet!
(EDIT: I may as well explain: I FLY a bloody Myrmidon. If you read the post, you'd know that.)
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Kunming
Outcasts
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 19:13:00 -
[89]
Xori, I've been sayin the same thing since the Tier 2s came out, but I guess you get tired after a while.. Glad to see someone else grab the flag
Either the brutix is turned into a drone boat and myrmidon gun boat, or swap the tiers.
BTW this same design flaw exists with prophecy and harbinger as well, tanking ships were always higher tier to make up for the lack of DPS and speed, while laser gun boats were always lower tier.
ATM we see both brutix and prophecy entering the path of becoming obsolete.
Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
|
Kim kitori
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 19:27:00 -
[90]
Drones can be popped easily. To outdamage brutix, myrm needs heavy drones. If you web the heavies you can almost insta pop the drones if you have decent skills in gunnery. Brutix can also leave without loosing its main weapons. But Myrmidon cant warp out when its in trouble and keep its main weapon coz ogres are really slow. I dont know about its shield tank. Feel free to nerf it. But leave the ship's bonus and layout alone.
/personal rant>
Gawd whats wrong with these people. When I was caldari everyone wanted to nerf caldari ships. Now I switched to Gallente everyone wants to nerf gallente ships. God hates me. 
<rant/
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 20:08:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kim kitori
/personal rant>
Gawd whats wrong with these people. When I was caldari everyone wanted to nerf caldari ships. Now I switched to Gallente everyone wants to nerf gallente ships. God hates me.
<rant/
I've dedicated MOST of my forum-whoring "career" to:
- nerf nos
- nerf caldari
- buff minmatar
- not nerf blasters
And even though I fly a Myrmidon, I still think it is a bit imba... 
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 20:35:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 19/03/2007 18:10:12
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Wahhhh someone killed me with a Myrmidon....I don't mean to stifle your precious creativity, but there's nothing to see here. Please move along.
LOL... as I predicted, someone who failed to actually read the post.
Post with your main, nublet!
1) Why is always about you? What about my needs? Can't I flame someone other than the OP? While it's true that I disagree with the need to change tiers or nerf the Myrmidon, I also think that much of the responses to your original post are just nerf-the-other-guy nonsense intermixed with a few race-guilt yeah-my-ship-is-to-uber apologists. I think most of this is nonsense. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
2) This is my main. Some industrialists are not alts. Some alts are not industrialists.
3) I'm all college edumacated and stuff. I read your post and understood it completely. Why assume that my disagreement is based on a failure to understand? I understand completely and still walk away wondering why this post was ever written. Honestly, this whole swap the tiers thing is about meeting the classification needs of the obsessive-compulsive disorder world organization. OMG, these don't fit a pattern that I see in some other stuff! Sound the alarm! I'm sure a dev who flies Gallente was somehow involved. I would hazard to guess that sales numbers suggest the myrmidon is no more or less likely to get popped than any other ship.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 21:10:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 19/03/2007 21:10:09
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
1) Why is always about you? What about my needs? Can't I flame someone other than the OP?
Oh, hehe... I thought you were flaming ME, since you didn't quote anyone else. ;)
Quote:
3) I'm all college edumacated and stuff. I read your post and understood it completely. ...... Honestly, this whole swap the tiers thing is about meeting the classification needs of the obsessive-compulsive disorder world organization.
*edited for grammar
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Demangel
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.03.19 23:52:00 -
[94]
Sucky thing is, I LOVE the myrm, and gallente ships but was never into drone speccing.
The problem arrises when I discover that drone ships are now in.
While thats great and all and it's nice to see gallente kicking butt for once, I want balance, and whats more I want to use guns darnit.
I prefer to use drones as backup, added damage, utility.
This made the thorax, Brutix, and megathron natural ships for me to gravitate toward.
However some things have made my preffered style of fighting, second rate...
Nos: This is the big balance killer IMHO for drone ships versus turret ships. As drone ships do not rely on guns, they can do away with them altogether... They can still dish out good or great DPS with drones, kill your cap with nos, and eat your incoming fire with tank like nobodies business... It's a lethal tripple threat. This I consider to be part of the real problem with drone ships. Nos doesn't benefit any other ship type the way it does a drone ship. While a drone ship DOES give up DPS to use nos, a turret ship has to give up a LOT more DPS to use nos than a drone ship does. It's not that I don't think drone ships should be able to make such great use of nos, it's just that nos shouldn't be so powerful. Remember, no other ship gains the benefits a drone ship does from nos use.
Drone size: Another issue lies with the fact that drone ships are the only ships remaining in even that can fit weapons of a class larger than the ship and still be viable. You can't fit even 4x large blasters on a brutix can you? I know I can't. But a myrm can fit 4 heavy +5 lights, or 5 heavies right out of the box. Heavies are BS scale drones... Ishkur being another example, able to fit cruiser sized drones on a frigate. But the Myrm unlike the ishkur, has a drone damage and HP bonus identical to the domi. This means it's capable of dishing out BS level damage easily... Although it has fewer drones, thats not as big an issue as it sounds, as a drone user, I can tell you, at close range, unless your in an insta lock ship, or a smartie settup, I can keep my drones alive a LONG time... Every second you spend trying to lock them down, I'm ticking away on my fingers before I rescoop em and relaunch em... Does that diminish my DPS, sure... but it also robs you of your chance to take em down... And at close range, I can rescoop and relaunch pretty quickly.
So how do we fix this? TBH I think the only fix thats really needed, is to nerf nos, and see how the cookie crumbles from there. Afterward, it should be easier to see exactly what the problems are.
To put it another way, to nerf the myrm without first seeing the effects of a nos nerf, could put the ship into the stinkhouse... BEcause a nos nerf simply HAS to be on the horizon... it's too loudly whined about, and really is an issue... Minor compared to nanophoons, but still an issue.
So nerf the nos, my guess is the myrm will still be overpowered in some regards, but not by the landslide it will be if you nerf the mrym, THEN nos...
And for the record: Higher Tier ships are SUPPOSED to be more advanced. Hence the higher tier designation. Thats not the same as saying the thorax is superior in every way to a vexor... At least it shouldn't mean the same thing.
As far as gallente and tiers go:
Lower tier has traditionaly meant: Drone boat with gun support.
Higher tier has meant: gun boat with drone support.
With the new BC's, the oposite has occured. So I don't think I would be horribly upset if the drone ship became the brutix, and the gunship became the myrm. It could be as simple as:
Swap the 10% to drone damage and HP bonus to the brutix.
Swap the drone bays completely.
Do some magic with the slots so the brutix has a drone boat slot layout, and the mrym the gun slot layout.
Give the myrm a meaningful damage bonus to hybrids (with the same bonuses for example as the hype). Course then all races would need a similar change... or both ships will become garbage.
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 00:04:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/03/2007 00:04:02
Originally by: Demangel
Sucky thing is, I LOVE the myrm, and gallente ships but was never into drone speccing.
The problem arrises when I discover that drone ships are now in.
While thats great and all and it's nice to see gallente kicking butt for once, I want balance, and whats more I want to use guns darnit.
I prefer to use drones as backup, added damage, utility.
This made the thorax, Brutix, and megathron natural ships for me to gravitate toward.
YES! Exactly! All the points you made... I've been beating my head against a wall in this forum for ages now. We should get together and yarr it up with some blaster ships someday, mate!
Originally by: Demangel
So how do we fix this? TBH I think the only fix thats really needed, is to nerf nos, and see how the cookie crumbles from there. Afterward, it should be easier to see exactly what the problems are.
/signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Tulisin Dragonflame
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 00:07:00 -
[96]
I, on the other hand, despise guns and picked Gallente ships because I wanted to go with as much of a drone setup as possible. The two weapon systems are just going to have to coexist.
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 02:15:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
I, on the other hand, despise guns and picked Gallente ships because I wanted to go with as much of a drone setup as possible. The two weapon systems are just going to have to coexist.
You're missing the point. Even without a turret bonus the Myrmidon does only 50dps less in blaster config than the Brutix, without counting drones. Once you add in drones to both ships the Myrmidon is doing about 200dps more than the brutix. Thats as much as a blaster-Thorax more than the Brutix. Not to mention if you don't want to put as much gank in the blasters you can run a dual MAR II setup on the Myr whereas the Brutix can't do that unless you have Engineering V and advanced weapon upgrades. And I can't imagine what kind of blaster DPS a Myr could get with those skills...
What we're saying is that if you've got both gun and drone skills there is no reason to use a Brutix over a Myr. There no situation that you'd want to use a Brutix, it has no role that the Myr or Ferox cannot do better.
Oh wait! With 7x Miner IIs only 8 turreted BSes can mine more than the Brutix! It even outmines all barges under Covetor. Yeah...right.
On a positive note the Brutix kicks the socks off the Deimos...
|
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 12:13:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
I, on the other hand, despise guns and picked Gallente ships because I wanted to go with as much of a drone setup as possible. The two weapon systems are just going to have to coexist.
You're missing the point. Even without a turret bonus the Myrmidon does only 50dps less in blaster config than the Brutix, without counting drones. Once you add in drones to both ships the Myrmidon is doing about 200dps more than the brutix. Thats as much as a blaster-Thorax more than the Brutix. Not to mention if you don't want to put as much gank in the blasters you can run a dual MAR II setup on the Myr whereas the Brutix can't do that unless you have Engineering V and advanced weapon upgrades. And I can't imagine what kind of blaster DPS a Myr could get with those skills...
What we're saying is that if you've got both gun and drone skills there is no reason to use a Brutix over a Myr. There no situation that you'd want to use a Brutix, it has no role that the Myr or Ferox cannot do better.
Oh wait! With 7x Miner IIs only 8 turreted BSes can mine more than the Brutix! It even outmines all barges under Covetor. Yeah...right.
On a positive note the Brutix kicks the socks off the Deimos...
Would it be better of the myrm lost it's tanking bonus for?
Also you saying a ship with no bonus, with 6 blasters is only 50dps weaker then a ship with 7 guns and a 25% damage bonus? I think you might of messed up on your numbers. The brutix figuritivly has 2.75 more blasters then a Myrm. I am sure that does more then 50DPS
|
Dzajic
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 13:22:00 -
[99]
I really think it should be waited to see will there be a nos nerf, before any myrm nerfs, since those two stacked would kill the ship.
And another thing, unimportant to you older players but quite important to newbies. Myrmidon is almost twice the cost of Brutix. It alos just slightly cheaper (well not that slightly but close) than a Dominix. Its a very expensive ship, with its desired armament being T2 drones who are also multimilion liability since if you warp out to run away you lose millions.
|
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 13:23:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
I, on the other hand, despise guns and picked Gallente ships because I wanted to go with as much of a drone setup as possible. The two weapon systems are just going to have to coexist.
You're missing the point. Even without a turret bonus the Myrmidon does only 50dps less in blaster config than the Brutix, without counting drones....
So what?
The drake spanks the living daylights out of the ferox. Where are the hoards of caldari complainants about how the poor old ferox get obsoleted overnight? The myrmidon >should< out damage it's lower brethren. It seems pretty clearly wrong headed to assume that the T1 and T2 BCs should be "different but equal" but this was somehow botched by the devs or the contet/balance people. I think the general trend is a major boost in power in the next tier up and I think that's also cleary implied by the "arms race" language used by CCP.
Why do we not have a similar discussion about the Hyperion and Megathron? I think it's pretty clear that the T3 minmatar BS is better than either of the old boats. About the only "different and speicialized differently so therefore equal but only in different roles" situation is the Caldari lineup, in which there are 3 vastly different designes, all of which are useful in their intended role. So, is the message here really that everyone should have designed variety like the Caldari BS lineup and that this design mentality should translated down into the BC range as well? That certainly seems to follow naturally.
That's not going to happen and, honestly, I don't think it's all that desirable of a thing to happen.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 16:31:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame
I, on the other hand, despise guns and picked Gallente ships because I wanted to go with as much of a drone setup as possible. The two weapon systems are just going to have to coexist.
You're missing the point. Even without a turret bonus the Myrmidon does only 50dps less in blaster config than the Brutix, without counting drones....
So what?
The drake spanks the living daylights out of the ferox. Where are the hoards of caldari complainants about how the poor old ferox get obsoleted overnight? The myrmidon >should< out damage it's lower brethren. It seems pretty clearly wrong headed to assume that the T1 and T2 BCs should be "different but equal" but this was somehow botched by the devs or the contet/balance people. I think the general trend is a major boost in power in the next tier up and I think that's also cleary implied by the "arms race" language used by CCP.
Why do we not have a similar discussion about the Hyperion and Megathron? I think it's pretty clear that the T3 minmatar BS is better than either of the old boats. About the only "different and speicialized differently so therefore equal but only in different roles" situation is the Caldari lineup, in which there are 3 vastly different designes, all of which are useful in their intended role. So, is the message here really that everyone should have designed variety like the Caldari BS lineup and that this design mentality should translated down into the BC range as well? That certainly seems to follow naturally.
That's not going to happen and, honestly, I don't think it's all that desirable of a thing to happen.
You must not read these boards, we get an "omh ferox sucks" thread about every other day. When the Drake first came out the majority of posts on the issue were "Welp, the Ferox is obsolete"
P.S. The Hyperion is not stronger than the Megathron. It does less damage[due to drone bay], but tanks better, and its low locking range and short CPU makes it difficult to fit for sniping.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
OhMyGodess
Caldari
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 16:52:00 -
[102]
i readed first post and i must say
don't ******* touch my ships kid!
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 16:58:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/03/2007 16:56:09
Originally by: Goumindong
P.S. The Hyperion is not stronger than the Megathron. It does less damage[due to drone bay],
Due to -1 low slot, too... the -1 ogre helps cut down the DPS, but the -1 MFS II really stings.
Originally by: OhMyGodess
i readed first post and i must say
don't ******* touch my ships...
Hey mate, it's my ship too. I acknowledge that it is a tad overpowered. I'll still fly it until they nerf it... and then I'll fly it some more (such a sexah hull!) Sooooo...
Quote:
kid!
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:06:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/03/2007 17:29:59
Originally by: Dzajic
I really think it should be waited to see will there be a nos nerf, before any myrm nerfs, since those two stacked would kill the ship.
I don't think a NOS would hurt the Myrm much... the Myrm would still be overpowered compared to any BC out there (besides a passive tanked drake). Why: Because it can still do INSANE damage while having the best (er, maybe the second best) BC armor tank in the game.
Quote:
And another thing, unimportant to you older players but quite important to newbies. Myrmidon is almost twice the cost of Brutix.
?
Have you not played for a few weeks? Tier 2 BC have really come down in price. 38m-ish now. Small price to pay for all that ubarness in PVP... and its insured. So basically, the Myrm costs me what... 11, 12m? (Because, see, I ASSUME I've lost a ship... the 38m is just a temporary payment so I get to use it :))
Quote:
It alos just slightly cheaper (well not that slightly but close) than a Dominix.
Once again... What are we looking at here:
Brutix: 24m-ish (hazy on the prices because I haven't flown a Brutix in so long :( )
Myrmidon: 38-40m
Dominix: Isn't this more like 55m-60m? Sorry, I just moved back up from Curse, and I can't keep my empire prices straight :)
Quote:
Its a very expensive ship, with its desired armament being T2 drones who are also multimilion liability since if you warp out to run away you lose millions.
Yeah, drones are a PITA like that. :(
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
UKBarryScott
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:20:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:20:28I have awsome gunnery skills......My Gunnery sits at 5.x mil
No offence but I wouldnt class 5.whatever mil SP in gunnery as awesome. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:32:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2007 17:33:25
Originally by: UKBarryScott
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 15/03/2007 20:20:28I have awsome gunnery skills......My Gunnery sits at 5.x mil
No offence but I wouldnt class 5.whatever mil SP in gunnery as awesome.
Its plenty good enough for medium guns.
I have barely 3m and fit tech 2 medium guns just fine with 4s in all primary and secondary skills for tech 2 medium lasers.[except traj analysis 2 and AWU 3]
As far as i know Xori does not fly battleships, which would make 5m specialized into medium blasters quite impressive.
ed: Actualy he just got large 5, but still quite strong for blasters.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:39:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/03/2007 18:03:04
Originally by: UKBarryScott
No offence but I wouldnt class 5.whatever mil SP in gunnery as awesome.
For a 2 or even 3 year character? Nope. Then again, many 2-3 year old characters have multiple specializations (two or more gun types). Many 2-3 year old characters also have AWU 5 - a useful skill, but one that adds a very large number of SP to the gunnery tree overall.
For a 1 year 2 month character? Yeah. I've specialized in Hybrids only, leaving projectiles for later. I'm at 5.5m now. At 6m, I will comfortably be using T2 large blasters. At 6.7m, I should have no trouble using T2 large rails. Of course it only gets sweeter from there. But why would I do things like train large blaster spec 5 NOW when there are so many other skills that would incur such a greater benefit?
At the moment, I don't fly battleships, as Goum said. I fly BCs, t2 blasters fitted. My skills are quite ample for such application. Most of the gunnery skills I will get in the future will not help medium blasters very much, so I feel quite satisfied with using my skills as an adequate base for argument.
There could be:
- Medium blaster spec to 5: 2% increase of damage, 19 day training time (I'll likely do this when I'm close to getting into an Astarte)
- Trajectory analysis to 5: something I won't take to 5 until I am using ACs heavily, or getting into an Astarte
- Surgical strike to 5: 3% more damage. Very useful, but not something I can see training to 5 before I get t2 drones. Its return is also not as high as - say - training Gallente BS 5. It will certainly be trained before I get into an Astarte, perhaps far sooner.
- AWU 5: very useful in SOME situations. The myrmidon is VERY easy to fit without it however. It is not needed for this discussion.
Originally by: Goumindong
ed: Actualy he just got large 5, but still quite strong for blasters.
omghax!!11
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 17:57:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Goumindong
You must not read these boards, we get an "omh ferox sucks" thread about every other day. When the Drake first came out the majority of posts on the issue were "Welp, the Ferox is obsolete"
P.S. The Hyperion is not stronger than the Megathron. It does less damage[due to drone bay], but tanks better, and its low locking range and short CPU makes it difficult to fit for sniping.
Observing that the ferox is obsolete (except for the rare Caldari gunner), is a long way away from saying "nerf the drake!" That would be the correct analogy here. My argument, in fact, is that we should realize that the brutix SHOULD be obsolete, and yet it continues to sell and to be effective. Perhaps it's the Brutix that should be nerfed to bring it in line with the ferox's mediocrity.
The Hyperion clearly out tanks the Megathron, which means that it can survive to bring blasters into the game. The Megathron is now just a Rokh wannabe.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 18:03:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Perhaps it's the Brutix that should be nerfed to bring it in line with the ferox's mediocrity.
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
The Hyperion clearly out tanks the Megathron, which means that it can survive to bring blasters into the game. The Megathron is now just a Rokh wannabe.
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 18:22:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Originally by: Goumindong
You must not read these boards, we get an "omh ferox sucks" thread about every other day. When the Drake first came out the majority of posts on the issue were "Welp, the Ferox is obsolete"
P.S. The Hyperion is not stronger than the Megathron. It does less damage[due to drone bay], but tanks better, and its low locking range and short CPU makes it difficult to fit for sniping.
Observing that the ferox is obsolete (except for the rare Caldari gunner), is a long way away from saying "nerf the drake!" That would be the correct analogy here. My argument, in fact, is that we should realize that the brutix SHOULD be obsolete, and yet it continues to sell and to be effective. Perhaps it's the Brutix that should be nerfed to bring it in line with the ferox's mediocrity.
The Hyperion clearly out tanks the Megathron, which means that it can survive to bring blasters into the game. The Megathron is now just a Rokh wannabe.
No, the difference is that the Ferox is not obsolete.
----------------------------------------
Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 18:30:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
Would it be better of the myrm lost it's tanking bonus for?
Also you saying a ship with no bonus, with 6 blasters is only 50dps weaker then a ship with 7 guns and a 25% damage bonus? I think you might of messed up on your numbers. The brutix figuritivly has 2.75 more blasters then a Myrm. I am sure that does more then 50DPS
You are overlooking the extra low a Myrm has to fit damage mods and the oodles of more powergrid it has to fit bigger guns. Here are my setups and calculations.
AWU 4 Engineering 5, med blaster skills maxed, drone skills maxed
Brutix:
5x Ion IIs 2x Electron IIs
Cap booster, MWD, 20k scram, web
MAR II, 2 EANM II+DC II w/ 1 Magstab II
5x Hammerhead IIs
430 dps from blasters
135 dps from drones
Myrmidon:
2x Heavy Neutron IIs, 4x Heavy Ion IIs
Cap booster, MWD, 20k scram, dual web
MAR II, 2 EANM II+DC II w/ 2 Magstab IIs
368 dps from blasters
427 dps from drones
62dps difference in blasters between Brutix and Myr with max skills and a light tank. The gap narrows the lower blaster skills you've got.
Both of these are rigless setups, not sure what you can do with rigs on em.
The Myrm also has the advantage of fitting an extra MAR II and less gank as the situation warrants.
BTW you'll notice a nos-Myrm does the exact same DPS as a gank Brutix, yet the nos-Myrm is disrupting the enemies cap, possibly EWaring and tanking twice as much at the same time.
So tell me again, WHY would I ever use the Brutix to do anything but mine?
|
Kim kitori
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 19:47:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Corwain
Originally by: Vincent Almasy
Would it be better of the myrm lost it's tanking bonus for?
Also you saying a ship with no bonus, with 6 blasters is only 50dps weaker then a ship with 7 guns and a 25% damage bonus? I think you might of messed up on your numbers. The brutix figuritivly has 2.75 more blasters then a Myrm. I am sure that does more then 50DPS
You are overlooking the extra low a Myrm has to fit damage mods and the oodles of more powergrid it has to fit bigger guns. Here are my setups and calculations.
AWU 4 Engineering 5, med blaster skills maxed, drone skills maxed
Brutix:
5x Ion IIs 2x Electron IIs
Cap booster, MWD, 20k scram, web
MAR II, 2 EANM II+DC II w/ 1 Magstab II
5x Hammerhead IIs
430 dps from blasters
135 dps from drones
Myrmidon:
2x Heavy Neutron IIs, 4x Heavy Ion IIs
Cap booster, MWD, 20k scram, dual web
MAR II, 2 EANM II+DC II w/ 2 Magstab IIs
368 dps from blasters
427 dps from drones
62dps difference in blasters between Brutix and Myr with max skills and a light tank. The gap narrows the lower blaster skills you've got.
Both of these are rigless setups, not sure what you can do with rigs on em.
The Myrm also has the advantage of fitting an extra MAR II and less gank as the situation warrants.
BTW you'll notice a nos-Myrm does the exact same DPS as a gank Brutix, yet the nos-Myrm is disrupting the enemies cap, possibly EWaring and tanking twice as much at the same time.
So tell me again, WHY would I ever use the Brutix to do anything but mine?
Nos is overpowered. When nos is nerfed Myrmidon wont be that uber. Heavy drones are slow. They can be killed easily. Brutix's weapons cant be destroyed. Myrmidon might abit overpowered. But it wont be after the nos nerf.
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 20:50:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Corwain on 20/03/2007 20:47:35
Originally by: Kim kitori
Nos is overpowered. When nos is nerfed Myrmidon wont be that uber. Heavy drones are slow. They can be killed easily. Brutix's weapons cant be destroyed. Myrmidon might abit overpowered. But it wont be after the nos nerf.
Uh, the Myrm will be doing only about 50dps less than the Brutix's blasters with it's blasters. Even if they go after the drones and actually succeed in beating the scoop/drop trick the extra DPS from those drones will have done WAY more damage than the Brutix drones would do the whole fight AND they'll have kept the DPS off the Myrm for at least 30secs per heavy.
So explain to me again: why would a nos nerf would make a Brutix outperform a Myrm in any situation?
|
Kim kitori
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 22:08:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Corwain
Edited by: Corwain on 20/03/2007 20:47:35
Uh, the Myrm will be doing only about 50dps less than the Brutix's blasters with it's blasters. Even if they go after the drones and actually succeed in beating the scoop/drop trick the extra DPS from those drones will have done WAY more damage than the Brutix drones would do the whole fight AND they'll have kept the DPS off the Myrm for at least 30secs per heavy.
So explain to me again: why would a nos nerf would make a Brutix outperform a Myrm in any situation?
Why should it outperform a Myrm? I thought the point of this thread was to balance myrmidon not nerf it. I havnt used brutix yet, so i dont know that 50dps less business is true. I find it hard to believe.
|
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
Free Trade Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 22:24:00 -
[115]
Tbh i dont think its tank should be gimped at all,its damage should be...
The brutix for one should have twice the dps as the myrm,but the myrm should be able to almost tank the brutix for there to be balance,but doing both at the same time means an overpowered ship.
My fix is take away some turret/high slots and replace it with dronebay size therefore making it more of a drone machine and less of a gank n tanker.
__________________________________________
Yes it is great being amarr.
I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 22:36:00 -
[116]
Originally by: goodby4u
...The brutix for one should have twice the dps as the myrm,but the myrm should be able to almost tank the brutix for there to be balance, ...
There comes that "balance" thing again. It's even talking about balance between tiers of ships within the same race and class. That's an assumption that flies in the face of the whole "arms race" language used in the release of the new BCs. T2 BCs are better than T1 BCs by design.
|
Venkhar Krard
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 22:42:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Venkhar Krard on 20/03/2007 22:43:26
The dominix is as powerful as the megathron
The geddon is as powerful as the apoc
The typhoon is as powerful as the tempest
The arbitrator is as powerful as the maller
etc.
Tier 2 arent better than tier 1. It would make no sense to fly a tier 1 once you have the money for a tier 2.
|
Corwain
Gallente
Zero Team
|
Posted - 2007.03.20 23:18:00 -
[118]
The dominix is as powerful as the megathron
About right, they both play different roles and neither do better than the other at their roles, although they can play each others role to some extent.
The geddon is as powerful as the apoc
I don't have much experience with the Amarr BS but from what I know one of those ganks (Geddon?) and one tanks (Apoc?), neither does both better than the other.
The typhoon is as powerful as the tempest
Used to be, not so sure anymore
The arbitrator is as powerful as the maller
I fly Arbitrator and have killed the turreted Tier2 BCs with it so yeah, it can kick a Mallers ass, as well as any other Tech1 cruiser aside from the Celestis.
Thse next two statements clash with each other, but whatever:
Tier 2 arent better than tier 1.
Correct, they're supposed to play different roles, not be better overall. Tier2 could play a more important role but it is not supposed to be better at all roles than Tier1.
It would make no sense to fly a tier 1 once you have the money for a tier 2. Sure it would. Some pilots prefer Domi to Megathron, as each excels in different situations. Unfortunatly the Myrm does the Brutix' specialty better than the Brutix does.
|
Lab Technician071548
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 02:47:00 -
[119]
Domi cannot snipe.
Megathron cannot play the drone game.
Whether the bumperthron is better or not compared to bumper domi, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader. That one is close in my experience, which means the domi isn't as versatile as the venerable 'thron.
However, this post is about BCs, not BS, and that is the scope and limit of my comment on T2 v. T1.
I think it is least true in the Minmatar group and most true in the Caldari group that the T2 is better than the T1.
|
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
Free Trade Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 03:02:00 -
[120]
Edited by: goodby4u on 21/03/2007 03:00:08
Edited by: goodby4u on 21/03/2007 02:59:09
Originally by: Lab Technician071548
Domi cannot snipe.
Megathron cannot play the drone game.
Whether the bumperthron is better or not compared to bumper domi, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader. That one is close in my experience, which means the domi isn't as versatile as the venerable 'thron.
However, this post is about BCs, not BS, and that is the scope and limit of my comment on T2 v. T1.
I think it is least true in the Minmatar group and most true in the Caldari group that the T2 is better than the T1.
The domi can snipe,sentry drones can get up to 150km,and it has 6 turret hardpoints with a damage bonus.
The domi is MORE versatile,just looks at the slots,aswell as the ability to passive shield tank or armor tank and use ewar,it can use blasters+drones nearing the same dps as the mega,whereas the mega cannot tank aswell as the domi and still operate effectively.
As for t2 vs t1 bcs,it wasnt suppose to be that way,but atleast i know this.
Harbinger v prophecy=harbinger gank proph tank,a little less on the tanking side for the proph but whatever.
Drake v ferox=the drake can tank and use missiles,the ferox can snipe and tank...Although its a little gimp.
See a trend yet?The tier 1 ships arent as good as the tier 2 in their specialisation which i find sad,which means either the t1 ones should get boosted or the t2 get nerfed,why?Bses,cruisers and frigates are the same way,but with bcs dont get that now lets look at the brutix vs the myrm.
Myrm v brutix=the myrm can tank n gank the brutix could gank,thats the problem,the myrm can do the same thing as the brutix can without hurting its tank,but if the brutix tries to do the same thing he ends up with a rather funny setup.
__________________________________________
Yes it is great being amarr.
I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 03:36:00 -
[121]
drom range = 20km + base 25(scout) + 15(ewar) = 60km base control range, so sentryies only fire this fare under orders, to get 150 you would need: 150 - 60 = 90 / 20 = 9 / 2 = 4.5 -> 5 drone control ranges for highs and mediums for omni targeting to boost their range, not even goign to math that out.
|
Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 05:23:00 -
[122]
If the Myrmidon had room for replacement heavies I would agree its overpowered. However as is, its balanced by the fact that if it leaves it drones it leave most of its dps. I think all the tier 2 bc outclass their t1 counter parts. However when not doing a 1 vs 1 comparison they compete quite well against other ships/classes and the price to dps ratio are quite good.
So to the OP: I dont think the ships are that far apart. Especially when comparing ships to actual real time battle situations that aren't straight 1vs1's.
|
Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 05:31:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/03/2007 05:32:09
OK - a banned eve-o forum ***** convoed me and explained a few important and interesting points:
While it is true that the Myrmidon can:
- Outtank the other BCs (except perhaps the drake)
- OutDPS the other BCs
... tank and DPS isn't all there is to the picture.
Consider the Hurricane. Given its naturally higher agility and speed and the flexibility of t2 ACs, it can dictate range, giving it an advantage over the Myrmidon. Given this range, unless the Myrmidon fits T2 ACs itself, it has no chance against the faster, more agile Hurricane.
He also made the point: given that in practice, the tier 2 BCs nearly obsolete the tier 1 bcs, there is not necessarily any suggestion of intended balance between the tier 1s and tier 2s. Thus, the Myrmidon can not be considered overpowered simpily by comparing it to the Brutix. It must only be compared to the other tier 2 BCs.
Passive shield tank is the new WCS! |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
Free Trade Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 05:59:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/03/2007 05:32:09
OK - a banned eve-o forum ***** convoed me and explained a few important and interesting points:
While it is true that the Myrmidon can:
- Outtank the other BCs (except perhaps the drake)
- OutDPS the other BCs
... tank and DPS isn't all there is to the picture.
Consider the Hurricane. Given its naturally higher agility and speed and the flexibility of t2 ACs, it can dictate range, giving it an advantage over the Myrmidon. Given this range, unless the Myrmidon fits T2 ACs itself, it has no chance against the faster, more agile Hurricane.
He also made the point: given that in practice, the tier 2 BCs nearly obsolete the tier 1 bcs, there is not necessarily any suggestion of intended balance between the tier 1s and tier 2s. Thus, the Myrmidon can not be considered overpowered simpily by comparing it to the Brutix. It must only be compared to the other tier 2 BCs.
The hurricanes falloff isnt enough dps to break the myrms tank whereas the myrm can use its drones,and if he gets close he gets nossed and webbed.
As for the balance read my post above.
__________________________________________
Yes it is great being amarr.
I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space. |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |