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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1960
   |
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:43:24 -
[31] - Quote
Perhaps it would be helpful to outline what 'protections and aid' you feel the Assembly delegation needs that would not be afforded a normal citizen of the Federation. Are you talking about access? A place in the receiving line at the reception? Acknowledgement of your existence and of the fact that you're unlikely at best to pull a gun and attempt to kill the Empress?
Giving people an idea of just what it is you're asking for might give them more ability to decide if they hate you for asking for it. |
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
349
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:47:41 -
[32] - Quote
To all Empire loyal in this thread openly criticising the VA for wishing to attend the coronation cwremony you forget your places. None of you have the authority to deny this resolution, which is clearly a simple internal note of a desire to attend, and quite a few of you are barely even in a position to represent the Amarr.
This thread is merely an attempt for the Assembly to maintain its transparency, not a demand for their delegation to be accepted or admitted. It is up to those who lead to make this decision. If you are so anathemic to the notion of diplomacy between two great nations then I suggest you take your bitterness to field, instead of attacking a well meaning group who are clearly trying their best to promote peace and stability in the cluster. |
Zekiel Iyhr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
67
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:47:51 -
[33] - Quote
Xun Yu wrote:
We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.
Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly
Nor I. I too had my fingers dipped within this pot, and I aided it to fruition. I know not why so many are contesting such things when all the Assembly has done is make an announcement of its intent to attend as a diplomatic function. The wording is that which is fitting enough for the courts, and as such, fitting enough for me. Mayhaps I am missing the gene that causes me to be upset at such small things. Such things elude me.
Regardless... We should be welcoming, taking this as a time to show off the Empire's hospitality and power. This is the time for the finest the Empire has to offer in one of its finest days, instead of petty bickering.
Edit:
Lord Kailethre wrote:None of you have the authority to deny this resolution, which is clearly a simple internal note of a desire to attend, and quite a few of you are barely even in a position to represent the Amarr.
Well, I did not want to say it, but... Yes, these are very true feelings. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
640
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:52:39 -
[34] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Teinyhr wrote:Kolodi Ramal wrote:What is the point of your complaint about this, Mr. Onzo? Are you bored right now or something? Frankly I do not find him to be in the wrong here, at all. Regardless of the Assemblies achievements, it is essentially a capsuleer hobby club, and nothing more, and should be treated as such as a political entity. And what are you trying to accomplish? (Here and now, or on a larger scale.)
I do not understand your question. Well, I kind of do, but please do be more specific unless you want me to detail my schedule to you for the next six months. |
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 14:55:58 -
[35] - Quote
Xun Yu wrote:
Contessa della Solfete,
Again allow me to repeat: what other word would you choose to use to describe being afford the legal protections and aid necessary to fulfill one's role and agenda at a foreign event if not diplomatic privileges? This seemed to the committee and to the Villore Assembly a perfectly reasonable choice of language.
As I am sure you are no doubt aware that there are among any diplomatic relationship orders of precedence based on all sorts of traditional and nuanced aspects of international affairs - the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps being the senior diplomat from amongst all diplomatic missions and so forth. As such we are quite aware that the Villore Assembly delegation would not placed in the same preeminence as say delegations from the State or CONCORD. However as you'd know from your extensive experience we would still be placed within that order. Diplomatic protections and rights do not afford delegations with equal standing, one need only look at the distinction between consulates and embassies to realise this - they are both afforded diplomatic rights but are certainly not of equal standing and have distinct roles.
We do not consider the wording of this resolution, debated at length and developed with consultation from Amarrian organisations, to be unreasonable.
Thank you kindly,
Taishou Xun Yu
Vice-Chair of the Villore Assembly
I do not know which Amarrian organization you consulted with, but I will say that language is flawed and faulty. Treaties, like all legal documents, are subjected to intense scrutiny as to the language and grammar. A misplaced comma can cost millions of ISK.
The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation' anymore than myself and my entourage would be to visit Caille to shop. While I am sure I would save a fortune on parking with diplomatic markings on my vehicle, it's not going to happen.
Now, as Mlle. Saissore said, if you're just asking for the same protection as every other foreign national visiting the Empire, there's no need for a second point. It will be afforded regardless. The only reason for point two would be that you are requesting additional courtesies and privileges not usually afforded to foreign nationals.
So, are you asking for something else beyond the normal aid and protection accorded to foreign nationals visiting the Empire? |
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
351
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 15:04:25 -
[36] - Quote
Contessa della Solfete wrote:
The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation'
Clearly you are not acquainted with the works of the Assembly. At all. |
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 15:15:43 -
[37] - Quote
By all means, Lord Kailethre, enlighten me with your decades of wisdom and experience in interstellar politics and diplomacy. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1962
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 15:17:52 -
[38] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:Contessa della Solfete wrote:
The Villore Accords are not a 'foreign delegation'
Clearly you are not acquainted with the works of the Assembly. At all.
A 'foreign delegation' does not mean 'a delegation of foreigners', but rather 'an official delegation of representatives from a foreign sovereign power'. The Federation's official delegation would be a foreign delegation. A delegation from the system government of Dodixie would be expected to go through the diplomatic channels of their own government in order to be attached to the Federal delegation. Similarly, a delegation acting on the behalf of - and with official sanction from - the planetary government of Caldari Prime would be expected to be part of the State delegation. Absent any official imprimatur from the Federal government, an NGO is not a 'foreign delegation', but rather a 'non-state delegation', which is rather a different thing.
Also, do not let Sion Kumitomo get started on the intricacies of diplomacy between sovereign powers and their constituent members, systems, corporations, and trade associations, the man will talk for days. I think I saw a guy from SMA chewing his own leg off to escape... which was odd, because all he had to do was turn off the holo.
But hey, Monkeys, amirite? |
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 15:31:22 -
[39] - Quote
To answer your question, Director Arrendis, whether The Mittani could be considered a sovereign actor for the purpose of formal relations with the Amarr Empire is tricky. CONCORD treaties might come into play. The organizational stricture of the Imperium, the formal structure, corporations and alliances are all subject to CONCORD oversight. I think the point is moot, though. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1962
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:04:51 -
[40] - Quote
Contessa della Solfete wrote:To answer your question, Director Arrendis, whether The Mittani could be considered a sovereign actor for the purpose of formal relations with the Amarr Empire is tricky. CONCORD treaties might come into play. The organizational stricture of the Imperium, the formal structure, corporations and alliances are all subject to CONCORD oversight. I think the point is moot, though.
It likely is moot, but as Goonswarm holds sovereignty under CONCORD's structure, we would be considered a sovereign entity under their criteria. |
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:12:02 -
[41] - Quote
But the fact that CONCORD controls that structure and can change it at whim is the sticking point. |
Utari Onzo
Pentag Blade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
1291
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:16:53 -
[42] - Quote
I think this discussion would be better served in its own thread.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
180
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:18:43 -
[43] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:I think this discussion would be better served in its own thread.
Good call. It's getting a bit heated here. And off topic, too.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
8660
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:25:09 -
[44] - Quote
I suppose the basic point remains, however; the Villore Assembly is asking for equal standing to a sovereign group in its treatment, which is to say equal standing to a delegation that could certainly include spokespeople of Federation's government itself. While Soter is perfectly within his rights to request such a thing, it could conceivably be read as an insult to the Federation itself, given that Soter seems to seek a seat at the same table as Roden.
I would suspect that such a request as this is more likely to be granted to a delegation from the Imperial capsuleer organizations, but they've not sough to grandstand in this way: instead, they host a celebration.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1478
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:31:10 -
[45] - Quote
I suggest to all fellow Amarr that you lay this argument to rest and allow the presumptuous Mr. Soter and his followers be ignored by the Empire as he rightly will be.
That said, just in case they do not get ignored, I would like to formally request that the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris be included officially in the coronation procession and that we all get big hats to announced how loyal and special we are to the Empire.
That is all.
Aldrith Ter'neth Newelle
Lord Consort of House Sarum
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Zekiel Iyhr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
73
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:43:50 -
[46] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:I suggest to all fellow Amarr that you lay this argument to rest and allow the presumptuous Mr. Soter and his followers be ignored by the Empire as he rightly will be.
That said, just in case they do not get ignored, I would like to formally request that the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris be included officially in the coronation procession and that we all get big hats to announced how loyal and special we are to the Empire.
That is all.
Soter had little to no hand in the creation of this delegation. Neither that, nor is the delegation asking for official recognition and announcements of speciality.
This is an era of great change for the Empire. The Empress is setting the first of presumably many precidents. The Federation is slowly warning to the Empire as tensions grow elsewhere. Can you not see this? Such childish remarks are unbecoming of a man of your status. I feel you are well aware of the ramifications and benefits this delegation could provide.
The worst (or best, in your eyes) the Empire politicians could do is simply say "no," after all. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
8660
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:49:51 -
[47] - Quote
Mr. Iyhr;
Xun Yu wrote:
...
Resolution VA/2/1
Second Villore Assembly
Sponsors: Julianus Soter
...
...
2. Requests that the members of this delegation be afforded all diplomatic rights as any other foreign delegation,
...
Point 2 either means 'the rights as any common group,' or else 'the rights afforded a sovereign delegation.' Given that they are making formal announcements, one should read it as the latter.
Please do take care when attempting to reproach a man of the Lord Consort's standing.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation Technologies
1387
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:52:08 -
[48] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:We shall see what the Empire's response will be to this but I suspect you'll be enjoying the show from the same seats as everyone else on these forums. Indeed we will, we are not asking the Empire for anything, we are asking the Federal authorities to include members of the Assembly in their delegation. Should the Federal authorities decline our request I suppose we will have to make other arrangements. If they do, then I suppose it's up to the Empire to accept the delegation or not.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Zekiel Iyhr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
73
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 16:59:49 -
[49] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Please do take care when attempting to reproach a man of the Lord Consort's standing.
I am a Holder of the Divine Mandate. I am no "mister" to be flippantly addressed so. House Iyhr, though troubled, serves God, the Empire, and its peoples.
That being said, I understand now the wording may be a touch difficult to decipher. |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1482
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 17:15:40 -
[50] - Quote
Oh, do not worry about me, Ms. Priano, I can take a few rebukes from fellow Amarr who have not yet let the poison of cynicism creep into their veins.
Anyway, whoever drafted this request sent it to the wrong address. As capsuleers, the Villore Assembly is already allowed in Amarr space as an extra-national entity under the jurisdiction of CONCORD law. However, standings, Imperial criminal records, and persona-non-grata lists due to acts against the Empire might still apply if they try to set foot upon Holy Athra, and they really ought not even try. As the Contessa pointed out, people far more important to the Empire will be hogging up the seats in the Imperial Palace and Basilica where the events will take place. No one from the Federation short of the President himself would be allowed within a hundred kilometers of the palace, and the only capsuleers I could think of that would be let in are the Tash-Murkon champions. Not even my wife, Champion of House Sarum and Admiral of PIE, will likely be invited, but the Empress-elect might be feeling generous and allow representatives of her rivals to show up.
Now, having established that the Villore Assembly's attendance of the coronation ceremony proper to be next to impossible, the next best thing would be to attend the military procession in the Amarr system. That is very much possible, and I will likely be leading the Amarr loyalist fleet for the event. Thus they really ought to have sent this request to me or the Praetorian Admirals, as it will be up to us whether or not we'd welcome them in our territory. CONCORD might protect them from unlawful weapons fire, but there is plenty of time to plan a sanctioned war against them if we feel they might present an insult or a threat. Now, I truly doubt we'd deign to do such a thing, but the possibility exists and the courtesy this request represents ought to have been sent to people who could and would actually acknowledge them.
If the Court Chamberlain does indeed respond and invite them, I will stand thoroughly corrected on this matter. But frankly, I simply do not see that happening, and I interpret the attempt to be naive at best and arrogant at worse, as have many other loyalists of the Empire. This is neither surprising nor especially galling coming from Gallente, but it is still enough of an issue that it warrants correcting. I'm sorry to rain on their parade, but it's actually our parade and while Gallente exceptionalism can be cute sometimes, it's really unbecoming. I'll forgive them, however, because I am to busy trying to figure out how to counter a Drifter alpha strike if things come down to that.
Aldrith Ter'neth Newelle
Lord Consort of House Sarum
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Zekiel Iyhr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
75
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 17:27:40 -
[51] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Oh, do not worry about me, Ms. Priano, I can take a few rebukes from fellow Amarr who have not yet the poison of cynicism creep into their veins.
Anyway...
I rue the day such a thing would happen to me.
Thank you, in any case, for your extended response.
I believe it has been made unfortunately clear how undereducated I am in interstellar politics and the phrasing of such. I do not believe the Assembly was asking for entry into the Coronation its very self, though I did not think to address such things while it were possible. Regardless, I hope there will be more olive branches extended in the future between our Empire and the Federation. |
Contessa della Solfete
501c3
2
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 17:32:57 -
[52] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:We shall see what the Empire's response will be to this but I suspect you'll be enjoying the show from the same seats as everyone else on these forums. Indeed we will, we are not asking the Empire for anything, we are asking the Federal authorities to include members of the Assembly in their delegation. Should the Federal authorities decline our request I suppose we will have to make other arrangements. If they do, then I suppose it's up to the Empire to accept the delegation or not.
Wow. Then your wording was even more horrible than I originally thought.
2. Requests that the members of this delegation be included as official members in the Gallente delegation.
I fixed it for you. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
8662
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 17:41:11 -
[53] - Quote
Ah-- one last note, then, given Syagrius's comment. The resolution isn't specifically addressed to anyone so far as I could see, but the wording of point 2 seemed to indicate a request posted to the Amarr. One doesn't usually request diplomatic credentials from a third party, after all.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1482
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 17:53:48 -
[54] - Quote
Specifically, Ms. Priano, the letter is addressed to the body in charge of overseeing the coronation, that being the Court Chamberlain headed by Pomik Haromi, who is currently the de-facto ruler of the Empire in absence of an Emperor. The Tash-Murkon Family, of course, now also has heavy influence in that sphere as it is their Heiress who is being coronated, as does the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy as they are surely in charge of security. Thus, this request is basically addressed to those four primary bodies which are in charge of vetting potential attendees of the ceremony, even if the actual request was made in a 'to whom it may concern' manner.
That is why it seems so presumptuous, since we Amarr do not even expect to be given the light of day by these bodies, nor would we basically demand their attention in such a manner.
Aldrith Ter'neth Newelle
Lord Consort of House Sarum
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
1579
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 18:13:17 -
[55] - Quote
I, for one, would not presume to guess what the reaction of the Amarr Imperial authorities would be.
However, I can assure the Villore Assembly, that should they request an official recognition in the event of an event being held on Kaztropol that the Assembly would wish to send a delegation to, then I have every confidence that Empress Synthia would ensure that they would be first in line.
For the ritual Reviling of the Heathens, that is.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1963
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 18:15:31 -
[56] - Quote
That doesn't seem terribly welcoming. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
1580
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 18:26:52 -
[57] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:That doesn't seem terribly welcoming.
Well, they are heathens.
Revile the Heathen, Shun the Unbeliever, Frown most Disapprovingly at Whoever It Is that Keeps Bringing in Boiled Sweets to Church and Sucking them during the Sermon because the Noise is Annoying.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
321
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 19:32:59 -
[58] - Quote
How amusing it is to see such a fuss being made over something so small as a few words which can easily be replaced. I believe instead of focusing so much energy over something so incredibly pedantic, the overall premise and tone of the resolution should be evaluated. This is a historic moment in the Empire's history, and individuals who claim loyalty to the Federation are attempting to reach out with an olive branch and a hope for better understanding - only to be met with individuals solely focused on a few words of their proposal? ******* pathetic.
In an effort to guide the discussion in the right direction, here are some topics some concerned Amarr may wish to bring up:
- what exactly does the VA delegation hope to gain from this interaction?
- how can this foster a greater sense of mutual understanding?
- is there anything planned to promote the sustainability of these good-will acts, or is this just a one time thing? |
James Syagrius
Reclamation Technologies
1392
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 19:44:46 -
[59] - Quote
Not exactly the response we had hoped for. What is strange is we have heard so little from those within the Imperial community who have known about and been supportive of this endeavor.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
641
|
Posted - 2016.09.05 20:23:27 -
[60] - Quote
Korsavius wrote:How amusing it is to see such a fuss being made over something so small as a few words which can easily be replaced.
Entire planets have been razed with just a few words. How amusing it is to see that you think so little of words. |
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