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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:22:00 -
[61]
Excellent follow-up blog, Oveur! That was (or should be) exactly what the whiners needed to hear. Unfortunately they will still whine but as you say it does show that they care. One thing I'll say:Do you mine for data on how many people use the escalating paths/exploration? Are many people encountering it?
I tried briefly then kind of forgot about it. Perhaps it would be good to have missions refer to exploration in some way so that mission runners don't forget about it. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Gudrun Hart
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:23:00 -
[62]
Whats about the T2 BPO lottery? Is the last seeding done? Any news? Any Infos?
But i'm looking forward for the mini profession in the missions, that sounds nice.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: hotgirl933 good to hear missions only became ISK inflators when u took out and ddint replace time bonus non ISK things like NPC goods etc with ISK that just inflated the whole thing. Put em back
Huh? Roll the die again and try a different word order -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Brubaker
Gallente Fulminata Securities
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:25:00 -
[64]
Hiya,
I haven't read the othr topic thread fully, so apologies if this has already been asked, but what's going to happen about corporation tax if bounties are removed? Missions are the only way tax is collected currently, and while I assume mission isk rewards will remain, bounties contributed well to corporation obligatory incomes.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:28:00 -
[65]
Originally by: rodgerd Infusing ISK from missions is a problem. Except our economics guy said it wasn't. And it's not a problem if it's the far greater amounts from 0.0 complexes and ratting. Guys? I'm confused! What was our excuse for another mission nerf?
Could you put someone in charge of the PvE content who doesn't hate it?
You need to brush up on your comprehension skills.
He is saying that mission reward Isk can be a source of Isk but isn't actually.
To use a real-world example:It's like saying oxygen can kill you (which it can) but it doesn't normally.
There is also no evidence in any of his blogs that he hates PvE. In fact in another thread (reply to me actually) he pointed out that a lot of the Eve developers are only do PvE because they are too tired after a hard days work to do anything else.
The bottom line here is that you need to sort out your reading comprehension and take in what's there - don't just make it up in your head. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Jorlish
Boru Brothers Exploration Corporation
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:30:00 -
[66]
more questions please -
Making sure it cost more to live in EVE than you can earn seems like a good idea to who exactly?
who is going to buy anything and what do they buy it with? - i mean a new guy gets the skills almost for a BC at start .. how long you think it will take to get one after the artificial depression? how many new players are going to want to wait 3 months to afford a ship only to lose it a week later and know that 3 months work until you get it back?
im sure we players will have no trouble at all selling the exact same 1MN AB me and 30k other players just looted off a level 4 mission BS.
Who is going to make stuff once the money runs out or from no one having a need to buy anymore?
So when the miners in 0.0 make their stuff haul it to empire place it for sale who there wil buy it? how many trips will they make with goods when the market is flooded cause of the loss of income and lack of customers ( yeah prices drop at first but then the money is all gone then what?)
So when they stop paying to mine in sectors because of the loss of customers in empire how does the controlling corp get that ISK back?
Who do the pirates attack if the supply lines are no longer needed and there is no longer any reason to haul anything from 0.0 to 0.6, ever?
Will we just sit in a war fighting each other until we all have to take 2 months off to mission so we will be able to buy a T1 cruiser from the 1 guy way out in BOB space still making them?
all stupid examples but serious things happen when it costs more to live than you can reasonably earn. What happens then is with no new money coming in the existing money flows like water to those who already have it, and once its gone from the not-so-rich and the just-getting-by players how do they get more?
missions (as they are now ,will cost you money to run most missions if they lose bounties) , industry ( why? unless you manage to ambush and defeat the complex kill team thats timed to the second on the spawns in the complex and get a BPO or the stuff for invention there, will be no reason to make a single t1 item as the game moves to a "kill-loot-repeat" style of economy, bet that sounds familiar dont it, wonder how that worked out for SOE)
mining ( to do what? unless you belong to an existing corp with complex access or serious t2 bpos running from now like mad until they go away) ,
pirating ( who you gonna pirate when the market comes ot a halt? no more merchants hauling stuff just guys moving war material), think there is no targets now imagine no money or reason to move stuff anywhere.
exploring .. yeah right (how profitable is invention again?)
I cant not think of any time or place or example where an economy could survive when it cost more to exist in that economy that the economy creates for the "workers".
this was tried in one other game i know of the one i left to come here, seems i am cursed to always be the bringer of -
"kill ,loot, repeat"
if i made no sense ill fix in the AM its late and i be tired.
Jorlish
Never Underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. |
Woddawick
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Wow. After 630 comments, the majority of it was just people complaining about missions? Nothing about PVP, pirating, invention, or anything other than missions?
I guess the most vocal group in the game are the mission whiners.
Um - they were responding to a blog that talked almosst exclusively about mission changes. Why are you surprised that the majority of replies were from mission runners?
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Callistus
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.20 08:58:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Callistus on 20/03/2007 08:54:28
Originally by: Woddawick
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Wow. After 630 comments, the majority of it was just people complaining about missions? Nothing about PVP, pirating, invention, or anything other than missions?
I guess the most vocal group in the game are the mission whiners.
Um - they were responding to a blog that talked almosst exclusively about mission changes. Why are you surprised that the majority of replies were from mission runners?
I think he's mixed up that mission blog with Oveur's previous one asking for your number one want for eve. --------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai
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Posted - 2007.03.20 09:01:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Gorion Wassenar on 20/03/2007 08:57:28 People will have to be able to defend themselves proactively without themselves becoming criminals before you force them into lowsec. ----- *results may vary*
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R'n'd
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Posted - 2007.03.20 09:22:00 -
[70]
Isk, Isk, Isk.
Imho CCP really needs to get a grip on inflation, taking out or lowering Isk rewards from mission is a good first step.
However, I also remember when 0.0 rat Isk bounties nearly tripled a few months back, so I think that needs some adjusting. As well as the ridiculouse 10/10 complexes that provided billions and billions in pure ISK for the alliance farmers through the sale of overseers tags.
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DukeJoost1
The Last Solution Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.20 09:42:00 -
[71]
Oveur wrote : "The incorrect part, is that we are adding lots of content. Exploration contains hundreds of different encounters for you to find (Srsly. Hundreds). We encourage you to try it out and there is already more coming. "
Which means CCP is adding loads of content for Exploration, just like all that content for Cosmos.
Content few players will ever see due to the effort and specialization(s) required to access that content. Also Cosmos content can only be used ONCE per player since you can do any Cosmos mission only once, while normal missions can be played repeatedly.
Exploration scanning is a hit and miss affair, mostly miss. And if players rarely find anything they will not retry.
Missions are available to everyone, and are therefore more often used.
CCP might want to translate the requests for more content to requests for more ACCESSIBLE content for everyone. So MANY more different level 1-2-3-4 missions please ! Make Cosmos mission retryable. And please increase Exploration scanning success probability !
Fly safe.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.20 10:28:00 -
[72]
If the ISK income from mission bounties is removed then the economy will crash.
It is said that there will be other rewards, expensive items for example and that the player can make money with trading them.
But where would all they buyers come from if a major isk source is gone? And mission bounties are a really big isk source (otherwise it wouldn't need to be nerfed). I think CCP need to rethink the zero mission bounty ISK approach a bit.
Life in low sec is expensive. You need to be able to survive several blows if you are hit by wardecs, ship losses etc. When the reserves are gone so far it was easy enough to go back to high sec and grind some L4 missons, get enough money and voila back to low sec and blowing up ships and getting blown up. With the easy money gone... where will that lead to?
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Siri Blue
Gallente Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.03.20 10:47:00 -
[73]
As a first thing please let me say that I am really happy that something is being done about the state of the missions they have been in for so long.
In general I like the idea of reduced ISK printing by Concord (though belt rats are just as big isk printers if not bigger) and rewarding the players with more commodities and loot instead (I don't understand the removal of non-isk mission rewards there though).
What I don't see yet though is the "policing of low sec space by players". I really hope you will provide proper tools for that.
What does concern me MOST though is the fact that non-combat missions only have been mentionend in h alf a sentence. THAT is what actually interests me most. And I hope to hear more about it soon!
Cheers
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:10:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Murphy "Printing large sums of money is bad. That is inserting new ISK into the economy."
Remove static 0.0 complexes and make them exploration sites. You'll remove a huge isk printer from the game doing that.
There's right around 25 10/10 complexes, those alone add at a minimum 25 billion per day. That's just in overseer's effects. That doesn't include the billions of loot they drop or any of the other complexes.
Plus you'd think after all this time the factions would figure out to hide their shipyards.
Complexes generate ISK only through Overseer Effects and bounty on NPC. Loot is worthless unless you find someone (player, not NPC) who will pay for it.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:10:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Humpalot
I honestly think the flip side to your proposal would make more sense. Nerf rat droppings sharply (leave salvage as is). Make missioning a mostly ISK only deal. There can be some loot drops but not much and far less than today. This would leave the mod and mineral markets in the players' hands where it should be. Miners provide the bulk of minerals and builders provide the bulk of mods and missioners buy it all.
Agreed. Have rats drop the odd named T1, salvage, the occasional BPC, implants and nothing else. Retain ISK bounties and ISK for missions. Players will build all the unamed t1 stuff once all the excess equipment starts to dwindle.
All the ISK farmers must be cheering right now.
-AS |
mr bighelmet
EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:34:00 -
[76]
Edited by: mr bighelmet on 20/03/2007 11:30:13 You want people to police Low sec themself, fine. The problem is that the police force pilot lose sec rating so fast that they become free game to anyone else and must use alts in order to visit High sec, this hurt the drive to police the area and make other player suspect you way to much. So please drop the sec hit you get from low sec killing & podding. And while you visiting the sec hit database, make sure that stealing from can give sec hit, it's time that poeple who do that will be get the same love that the poeple who protect miners get (i.e. no love at all from concord).
If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:51:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Humpalot on 20/03/2007 12:01:16
Originally by: Venkul Mul We are playing the same game? " Bounties + reward + LP + loot (refine and sell) + salvage is too much." In what universe or using wath kind of ship set up? Mining in hig sec I can get from 7 to 10 millions hour, with little risk. As mission running has higher risk (not much, but higher) and higher costs I want a better return. That is rarely seen in missions today (and most of the LP rewards are abmyssal, with a return lower than 1000 isk for LP, so the 3-5000 LP for a mission are 3-5 millions).
In a good L4 mission I can make more than 7-10 million an hour. Granted not always but a few days ago I got an implant drop that sold for 65 million (and this was a hi sec mission). Obviously that is rare but when you add in the occasional good loot drop plus everything else missioning can be quite profitable. I mine plenty and while my assessment is it is a more steady income stream missioning is overall more profitable as it stands (versus hi sec mining) as well as a helluva lot more fun. Kind of a no brainer choice.
As for LP it may not amount to much but it is part of the reward. If CCP implements an LP store rather than the random offers it is today LP will become more useful.
As for risk versus reward c'mon. Dunno about you but I haven't lost a ship to NPC rats in ages. Further, miners have to deal with NPCs too and in a Covetor that can't tank for anything NPCs can be a real risk. Add in ore thieves and suicide gankers mining even in hi sec is not start your lasers and go to bed. If you are at war (and Privateers are doing their level best to have all of Empire war decced) then mining becomes FAR more dangerous than running missions (as at least as a mission runner you are in a combat ship...granted PvE setup vs. PvP but better than a barge...and harder to find in your mission area).
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Leandro Salazar
Bravehearts Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:51:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 20/03/2007 12:48:49
Originally by: Oveur This is where the whole inflation thing comes in. Printing large sums of money is bad. That is inserting new ISK into the economy. We want to change it so that the higher end players are not the source of ISK into the economy, the higher end players get their ISK from the other players.
I find your approach at the isk issue disturbing. Removing the isk rewards and adding modules that other people are supposed to buy with isk that they no longer earn seems to be a concept just doomed to fail. Also, higher end players getting their ISK from lower end players will not work imho, simply because 'a lot of ISK' means something completely different to different level players. When I was a small fry I used to sell every module I found that was worth at least 250K and was happy about all that money incoming. Now I can't even be bothered to sell stuff worth 1 mil more often than not because it is not worth my time. I sell 5 mil+ stuff, and what low end player buys that? Am I then to change my way back to my newbie days to sell oodles of low end stuff? And how exactly should that yield any kind of reasonable profit when the market gets flooded with more and more modules while at the same time less and less ISK is available?
The best fix imho would not be taking something away, but adding something. Instead of TAKING isk income from missions, you should ADD isk sinks, maybe by adding faction modules/ammo sold by NPCs (at relatively high prices so finding them in loot will still be a good find), or some new expensive skills. Just like you should ADD level5+ to lowsec, but not TAKE any of the current lvl4s from highsec. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel
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Aine Lagerange
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.20 12:56:00 -
[79]
Hoi,
if you think about it's not worth a laugh. There will be two ways after the patch, to get new money. Mission rewards and sells to NPC. Money from Players will be diminish in a short amount of time, when ships and player past away and the amount of cash from the bank will be plundered for new ships, items etc. Of course I could use my own equipment, what I will find on serval missions, but thatĘs not changing my cash on the bank. If you have a Corp with a high tax and the only income is the reward of a mission, there isn't allot of gain.
The question is, how will this counter the need for speed initiative. There wont be speed, when you have to think on the safety of your ship first. No risk, no gain AND no enhancement in speed.
Aine Lagerange
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LeeLewis
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:13:00 -
[80]
If all this is going to happen then i will most likely be leaving eve, thank you very much GMS/ccp for messing it all up like you always do, i'll try it after the patch but thank you once again for messing the game up and killing my fun and enjoyment. I hope you can sleep at night. Lance |
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:14:00 -
[81]
LOL @ Threats to leave Eve.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:17:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: hotgirl933 good to hear missions only became ISK inflators when u took out and ddint replace time bonus non ISK things like NPC goods etc with ISK that just inflated the whole thing. Put em back
Huh? Roll the die again and try a different word order
I liked it better when i did get the random item(s) for a bonus. this was interesting to see what you would get isk is just isk
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raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:20:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: rodgerd Infusing ISK from missions is a problem. Except our economics guy said it wasn't. And it's not a problem if it's the far greater amounts from 0.0 complexes and ratting. Guys? I'm confused! What was our excuse for another mission nerf?
Could you put someone in charge of the PvE content who doesn't hate it?
You need to brush up on your comprehension skills.
He is saying that mission reward Isk can be a source of Isk but isn't actually.
To use a real-world example:It's like saying oxygen can kill you (which it can) but it doesn't normally.
There is also no evidence in any of his blogs that he hates PvE. In fact in another thread (reply to me actually) he pointed out that a lot of the Eve developers are only do PvE because they are too tired after a hard days work to do anything else.
The bottom line here is that you need to sort out your reading comprehension and take in what's there - don't just make it up in your head.
Actions speak louder then words
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:27:00 -
[84]
This was a good blog.
It appears that he has tried to address major concerns expressed in the last one.
I'm not sure a player police force will ever arise that can sufficiently patrol low sec and keep it safe though. There are more pirates it seems than those interested in keeping the peace.
Other than that it seemed like a good blog to me.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and |
Savio
Caldari The Nine Gates Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:34:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tiberyya Za
Quote: The incorrect part, is that we are adding lots of content. Exploration contains hundreds of different encounters for you to find (Srsly. Hundreds). We encourage you to try it out and there is already more coming.
1. There is a perception that exploration is unrewarding, risk vs. reward.
2. Many players do not want to deal with the boring, technical scan probe gameplay, yet explorers cannot sell waypoints for their findings to mission runners due to the risk of scamming. Add some sort of authenticated waypoint that shows the type and expiration date of the complex so that trust-free commerce in waypoints can be established.
something cpp should add to the game!
. Need a Sign? Click Here |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:39:00 -
[86]
Originally by: LeeLewis If all this is going to happen then i will most likely be leaving eve, thank you very much GMS/ccp for messing it all up like you always do, i'll try it after the patch but thank you once again for messing the game up and killing my fun and enjoyment. I hope you can sleep at night.
If that's not just a troll post it's pathetic. It's written in a very childish, whiney way and fails to explain what it is exactly that you don't like. Then there's a pointless threat to leave and it ends with some bizarre comment about them sleeping at night.
If you have a grievance you have to explain it to them. If you think that you as an individual are of that much interest to CCP (or the world at wide) you need to get a grip and wise up. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:41:00 -
[87]
Originally by: raven415
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: hotgirl933 good to hear missions only became ISK inflators when u took out and ddint replace time bonus non ISK things like NPC goods etc with ISK that just inflated the whole thing. Put em back
Huh? Roll the die again and try a different word order
I liked it better when i did get the random item(s) for a bonus. this was interesting to see what you would get isk is just isk
Yah, definitely. One aspect of loot that needs to be kept is the occasional 'spiffeh' item. Without it looting is just tedious. If an adjustment has to be made it should reduce the value of most items but compensate with more valuable uber items. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:48:00 -
[88]
Originally by: R'n'd Isk, Isk, Isk.
Imho CCP really needs to get a grip on inflation, taking out or lowering Isk rewards from mission is a good first step.
However, I also remember when 0.0 rat Isk bounties nearly tripled a few months back, so I think that needs some adjusting. As well as the ridiculouse 10/10 complexes that provided billions and billions in pure ISK for the alliance farmers through the sale of overseers tags.
Just what inflation are we talking about here ? Most mineral prices are down , way down. T1 bpos are at a fixed price. T2 prices are dropping and will continue to drop as invention picks up steam. The only thing I see going up in price are the ice products used to run pos's and capital ships.
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Dr Aryandi
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.20 13:49:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Forum Alt
Originally by: Murphy "Printing large sums of money is bad. That is inserting new ISK into the economy."
Remove static 0.0 complexes and make them exploration sites. You'll remove a huge isk printer from the game doing that.
There's right around 25 10/10 complexes, those alone add at a minimum 25 billion per day. That's just in overseer's effects. That doesn't include the billions of loot they drop or any of the other complexes.
Plus you'd think after all this time the factions would figure out to hide their shipyards.
Isk gained from selling items obtained from complexes does not generate a single additional isk into the economy unless they are sold to NPC's (which they aren't). It only causes isk to change hands. Definitely NOT the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.
Erm, Overseers effect's are sold to NPCs.
That's 25 billion isk injected into the economy every day by selling Overseer's effects.
Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
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Fenderson
OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.03.20 14:13:00 -
[90]
Regarding Policing: if you want this to work, you have to overhaul the criminal system in lowsec so that people can be police without themselves becoming criminals. You would also have to provide some way for them to be rewarded for their policing. If you expect the mission runners to pay the police, then you need to make missions profitable enough to pay both the mission runners and the police, and have everyone feel like they are being suitably rewarded for their efforts.
Regarding isk: if you want to remove isk faucets from the game, you should start with the ones that create the most stratification in the economy.
As i see it, there are 3 major isk faucets in the game. there are others, but i would bet that these 3 make up the vast majority of the isk being created. They are: missions ratting static plexes
Of these 3, ratting and missions are fairly accessible to the general public. This means that while the isk they create does contribute to inflation, the inflation is fairly well spread out through the playerbase and therefore as prices rise so will general player income. This type of inflation is not very harmful to the economy since the overall purchasing power of the individual remains about the same.
Static plexes, however, are only accessible by a much smaller part of the playerbase. this means that the isk they generate will be in the hands of much fewer players. This also creates inflation, but since the wealth is so stratified, the purchasing power of the majority of players (those without access to complexes) is diminished more and more as inflation proceeds.
my conclusion is that you need to be careful about how you address inflation. if you remove mission isk without removing static complex isk, you may decrease inflation somewhat, but the overall effect on the game economy will be very harmful. If you remove the static plexes and/or integrate them into exploration, you will decrease inflation in a much more constructive way. Then the option would still be open to remove or reduce mission isk if necessary, and it would not have as much of a crashing effect on the economy.
sigs are for the weak |
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