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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
116
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 11:49:01 -
[151] - Quote
Looks interesting, could you please post the fits you used for that graph? |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 12:06:01 -
[152] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:Looks interesting, could you please post the fits you used for that graph? Already have.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
116
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Posted - 2016.11.12 12:34:34 -
[153] - Quote
Post 136 ? That's odd then. When I make a graph with those ships the Proteus does roughly 30% more damage and the Brutix has a web spike... EFT 2.35? |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 17:12:42 -
[154] - Quote
Steffles wrote: Has more dps.
100 less DPS.
Steffles wrote: Its slightly slower but given the web twice as fast in web range. With a tracking disruptor in close your Proteus is hitting for half the damage its hitting for, at mid range with a damp your proteus is hitting for 0 damage, switched out for a tracking disruptor at range 40km+ with optimal range script your proteus is hitting for 20dps while its hitting for 120. It has almost the same ehp (1/5 less) and its a t1.
In web range, on a rail ship...
Steffles wrote: The reason I chose the navy version is not because its better, its because the other Brutix are active rep bonused and this version is not. The Brutix because its a similiar ship to the Proteus.
The pprot is a cruiser, the very fact you are having to use navy battlecruisers and you still cannot match it shows how overpowered they are.
Steffles wrote: You list all the wonderful bonuses the Proteus gets however its not the bonuses that are important, its the completed ship and how that ship compares to other ships.
Take away those bonuses are it drops from battleship level to poor t1 cruiser level.
Steffles wrote:You can see here quite clearly that they are quite evenly matched. Within 5 k the Brutix is superior. Outside 5k to 30k they are close to even, the Proteus does more dps but the Brutix have remote reps and web outside of scram range meaning they dictate range. With a nuet the Prots will go down fast, outside of 40k the Brutix clearly destroy the Prots. There is no overwhelming superiority of T3 here. Sure you can say bombers will destroy remote repping Brutixs's but they'll do that to any ships with remote reps, or any fleet that anchors up.
Clearly yo have no idea how fleets operate in null. |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 17:59:43 -
[155] - Quote
575 Prot vs 609 Brutix - It has more dps.
Brutix can fit both rails AND blasters.
The Proteus is a T3 Cruiser. Not a cruiser. The issue is not one of class size its one of "Does the Proteus have a counter within reasonable range in terms of skill, cost and ability", "if it does its not overpowered". Given that the Brutix requires less skill training, less isk and can provide a counter to the Proteus then the Proteus is balanced unless the BNI is itself overpowered. Since the BNI is not overpowered then the Proteus cannot be overpowered.
Take away those bonuses and its not a T3 cruiser.
I know exactly how fleets operate.
I've clearly demonstrated that the BNI fleet could defeat the Proteus fleet based on range. Even if it couldnt' beat it at close range, which I believe it could, with the addition of damps or tracking disruptors it easily defeats the Proteus you fit over 40k.
With a tracking disruptor with optimal range script your looking at that Proteus having a 34+12 optimal / falloff with spike while the Brutix has 81 + 19. With Damps and a Targeting Range Script the Proteus can't lock over 41km. While the Brutix can lock to 80+.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 19:19:18 -
[156] - Quote
Steffles wrote:575 Prot vs 609 Brutix - It has more dps.
480 for the brutix.
Steffles wrote: Brutix can fit both rails AND blasters.
There is a reason why nobody used med blasters in large fleet actions.
Steffles wrote: The Proteus is a T3 Cruiser. Not a cruiser.
Hint is in the name. Its a cruiser, its supposed to be between t1 and t2 in terms of power, not beating battleships at being a battleship.
Steffles wrote: The issue is not one of class size its one of "Does the Proteus have a counter within reasonable range in terms of skill, cost and ability", "if it does its not overpowered". Given that the Brutix requires less skill training, less isk and can provide a counter to the Proteus then the Proteus is balanced unless the BNI is itself overpowered. Since the BNI is not overpowered then the Proteus cannot be overpowered.
You are still defending a cruiser by comparing it to a navy battlecruiser.
Steffles wrote: Take away those bonuses and its not a T3 cruiser.
Its not overpowered you mean. The bonuses are what is causing the problem, you simply cannot add that many bonuses and not get an overpowered ship, no matter what class of hull. |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 19:53:18 -
[157] - Quote
600 dps. It fields 5 med drones.
Heres 2 more for you.
Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 220k ehp if you add a links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's.
Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable with mwd running. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram.
The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility, smaller sig than the Proteus and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.
[Damnation, New Setup 1] Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5 Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Valkyrie II x5
[Onyx, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type EM Ward Field 10MN Afterburner II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5 Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 21:12:58 -
[158] - Quote
Steffles wrote:600 dps. It fields 5 med drones.
That get left behind with the first tactical warp.
Steffles wrote: Heres 3 more for you.
Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 240k ehp if you add a links vs 212 Prot with same links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's. With MWD much much faster and small sig since mwd velocity cancels out sig bloom + adds sig reduction due to extra velocity.
Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram. Close to the same damage with scourge.
Buffer Eagle - 150k ehp (10k less than Proteus), 1685 m/s cap stable. Optimal with antimatter 41k vs 18k. At optimal for the Eagle, Prot is doing almost no damage.
The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.
[Eagle, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type EM Ward Field Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
[Damnation, New Setup 1] Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5 Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Valkyrie II x5
[Onyx, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type EM Ward Field 10MN Afterburner II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5 Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Eagle is not cap stable, has a massive sig, far less firepower, less tank, worse tracking.
damnation colossal sig, poor damage application, poor range, less firepower even before we take into account poor application.
Onyx, unable to break an enemy fleet, less tank.
None of those ships are equal to battleships, they all have flaws which is why nobody is flying your fits. T3C do not have flaws, they can be fitted to be better than battleships at the role of being a battleship as well as being better BC, hacs, cov ops and so on. Your rambling shitfits changes nothing, T3C are horribly overpowered and its the bonuses that are causing it. You simply cannot slap on 8 bonuses, most of them 10% per level and not get an overpowered ship. |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 22:30:45 -
[159] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steffles wrote:600 dps. It fields 5 med drones. That get left behind with the first tactical warp. Steffles wrote: Heres 3 more for you.
Damnation - 190k ehp (more than both your Prot and Battleship), 240k ehp if you add a links vs 212 Prot with same links. Fully cap stable with everything running. 500dps. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nuet and nova's. With MWD much much faster and small sig since mwd velocity cancels out sig bloom + adds sig reduction due to extra velocity.
Buffer Onyx - 137k ehp (23k less ehp than Prot), fully cap stable. Selectable ammo type. Murders the Proteus with its nova's and resists. Has a lovely 37k infinite scram. Close to the same damage with scourge.
Buffer Eagle - 150k ehp (10k less than Proteus), 1685 m/s cap stable. Optimal with antimatter 41k vs 18k. At optimal for the Eagle, Prot is doing almost no damage.
The point is your saying the Proteus is overpowered because its equal to a battleship. So are the ships above. The damnation is worse than the Proteus in that regard. It has a bigger tank than the Proteus, more utility and cruiser sized selectable damage type weaponry.
[Eagle, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type EM Ward Field Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
[Damnation, New Setup 1] Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile x 5 Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Valkyrie II x5
[Onyx, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Thukker Large Shield Extender Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type EM Ward Field 10MN Afterburner II
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Light Missile x 5 Warp Disruption Field Generator II, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Eagle is not cap stable, has a massive sig, far less firepower, less tank, worse tracking. damnation colossal sig, poor damage application, poor range, less firepower even before we take into account poor application. Onyx, unable to break an enemy fleet, less tank. None of those ships are equal to battleships, they all have flaws which is why nobody is flying your fits. T3C do not have flaws, they can be fitted to be better than battleships at the role of being a battleship as well as being better BC, hacs, cov ops and so on. Your rambling shitfits changes nothing, T3C are horribly overpowered and its the bonuses that are causing it. You simply cannot slap on 8 bonuses, most of them 10% per level and not get an overpowered ship. The reason nobody is flying them is because there is no T3C emergency and there is no need to have 150k ehp cruisers to counter your fantasy of the T3C emergency.
People are flying canes, cerbs, svipuls, T3's, rattles, bhargests, Caracals, Machs, etc etc. If Prots were so amazingly overpowered that's all we'd see in fleets but its not.
T3's don't need to be nerfed to make battleships good again, battleships need to be buffed and made more mobile and they need better damage application (turret based RHML). That's it.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 23:09:01 -
[160] - Quote
Steffles wrote: The reason nobody is flying them is because there is no T3C emergency and there is no need to have 150k ehp cruisers to counter your fantasy of the T3C emergency.
We dont want 130k ehp cruisers to counter T3C we want T3C to be cruisers, not pocket battleships.
Steffles wrote: People are flying canes, cerbs, svipuls, T3's, rattles, bhargests, Caracals, Machs, etc etc. If Prots were so amazingly overpowered that's all we'd see in fleets but its not.
People flew all sorts of things back when cavalry ravens existed, back when titans had remote AOE doomsdays, back when the dram was god, back when nano was everything.
Steffles wrote: T3's don't need to be nerfed to make battleships good again, battleships need to be buffed and made more mobile and they need better damage application (turret based RHML). That's it.
That's called power creep. You don't buff everything around the 4 overpowered ships you nerf the problem ships. Hence why T3D are getting the sledge hammer applied to their face. |
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
438
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 23:24:26 -
[161] - Quote
Steffles wrote:Wanda Fayne wrote:Nope. Now for the kicker... Can you make it a covert ops cloaky logi? Didn't think so (I can do both the Proti and Tengu as covops logi) Can't rep when you're cloaked. As a logi ship survivability is extremely important (needing to be within 10 to 15km means you can't warp out when you're about to pop if you're in a bubble, you'll likely be in optimal with the combat ships, you'll likely be in optimal of jams, scrams and disruptors). Range of reps are extremely important. Sig of 70 vs 150 is a very good trade off as is the range. Dead logi's can't rep. Cost is also important. So is losing a weeks training. Injectors say hi. It's a choice between a week's worth of training or ~630M.
If you wanted to, you could pop an injector and be right back out with everything at V again.
A signature :o
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Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 00:19:50 -
[162] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steffles wrote: The reason nobody is flying them is because there is no T3C emergency and there is no need to have 150k ehp cruisers to counter your fantasy of the T3C emergency.
We dont want 130k ehp cruisers to counter T3C we want T3C to be cruisers, not pocket battleships. Steffles wrote: People are flying canes, cerbs, svipuls, T3's, rattles, bhargests, Caracals, Machs, etc etc. If Prots were so amazingly overpowered that's all we'd see in fleets but its not.
People flew all sorts of things back when cavalry ravens existed, back when titans had remote AOE doomsdays, back when the dram was god, back when nano was everything. Steffles wrote: T3's don't need to be nerfed to make battleships good again, battleships need to be buffed and made more mobile and they need better damage application (turret based RHML). That's it.
That's called power creep. You don't buff everything around the 4 overpowered ships you nerf the problem ships. Hence why T3D are getting the sledge hammer applied to their face. They're not pocket battleships. As I've demonstrated they are in line with HP of battlecruisers, interdiction cruisers and some of the heavy assault cruisers and command ships which are also cruisers. You'd have to nerf those along with T3C's which would make them useless.
The issue is battleships not cruisers.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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Zakks
State Protectorate Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 01:24:05 -
[163] - Quote
Command ships are not cruisers |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 06:05:19 -
[164] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Command ships are not cruisers Battlecruiser - cruiser fitting and cruiser mods. They are more cruiser than battleship.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
51
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 06:45:25 -
[165] - Quote
I guess that makes Svipuls frigates.
You're trolling right? You understand battlecruiser is a class of ship size completely seperate from cruisers (despite the fact they use cruiser equipment) and not a role descriptor like "assault cruiser," right? |
Zakks
State Protectorate Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 08:22:23 -
[166] - Quote
Steffles wrote:Zakks wrote:Command ships are not cruisers Battle cruiser - cruiser fitting and cruiser mods. They are more cruiser than battleship.
TIL a Brutix is a cruiser
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 09:22:11 -
[167] - Quote
Steffles wrote: They're not pocket battleships. As I've demonstrated they are in line with HP of battlecruisers, interdiction cruisers and some of the heavy assault cruisers and command ships which are also cruisers. You'd have to nerf those along with T3C's which would make them useless.
The issue is battleships not cruisers.
You are still using a ship class above cruisers to try and say cruisers that are pulling battleship stats are not overpowered. |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 10:58:26 -
[168] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steffles wrote: They're not pocket battleships. As I've demonstrated they are in line with HP of battlecruisers, interdiction cruisers and some of the heavy assault cruisers and command ships which are also cruisers. You'd have to nerf those along with T3C's which would make them useless.
The issue is battleships not cruisers.
You are still using a ship class above cruisers to try and say cruisers that are pulling battleship stats are not overpowered. Nah not really. The onyx can get a battleship tank. Its a cruiser. The Eagle can get a battleship tank its a cruiser. Battlecruisers can get battleship tanks, actually as I demonstrated they get a hell of a lot more than both battleships and T3's yet theyr'e not battleships, they're mid way between battleships and cruisers if you like.
Admit you're wrong and we can move on to discussing fixing battleships, not nerfing T3's for no reason.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18405
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 14:02:04 -
[169] - Quote
Steffles wrote: Nah not really. The onyx can get a battleship tank. Its a cruiser. The Eagle can get a battleship tank its a cruiser. Battlecruisers can get battleship tanks, actually as I demonstrated they get a hell of a lot more than both battleships and T3's yet theyr'e not battleships, they're mid way between battleships and cruisers if you like.
Admit you're wrong and we can move on to discussing fixing battleships, not nerfing T3's for no reason.
We already picked apart your shitfits. Literally nobody is agreeing with you here including CCP. |
Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 14:30:04 -
[170] - Quote
I can't like your post (the button is missing?????) so I just have to say, SECONDED!
Asmodai Xodai wrote:I don't know the T3C issues (oversized modules vs. "they're just inherently OP") well enough to have any opinion whatsoever. Would just like to say that I found the arguments presented by both sides interesting and engaging, and hope to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Many thanks to all the people who put time and effort into their posts. |
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Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
7
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 14:35:29 -
[171] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Wanda Fayne wrote:Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the game I doubt it, but if so, who cares? If it needs fixing, it needs fixing, and if it is important to do, it is important to do. For me, the battleship issue is an intolerable situation. I know others who feel the same way. I've been able to train battleships for a long time, and have the skill books injected. I also have many support skills trained. But I have refused to train them. To me they are broken, and it simply isn't worth it. I'd like to see the issue fixed.
So you are not very skilled with Battleships(player skill wise, not SP) - and know other "unskilled" players as well? Okay...
So why don't you re-phrase the question and start by asking something along the lines of: "where do BS shine the most?" Or "how to make most use of a BS?"
Instead you assume the world is wrong and whine for changes...
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Gealbhan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
537
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 14:55:39 -
[172] - Quote
I have just under 90mil SP and I rarely fly a BS though I'm well skilled in flying one ( used to live in geminate region). I just don't feel the need to. |
Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
7
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 15:06:02 -
[173] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: So you've formed balance opinions about a class of ships yo have never even flown, and are arguing with people who have?
That's...I don't even know what to call that.
Oh, you're one of 'those people.' People who think that in order to have an opinion about something, you have to have direct personal experience with it. I've been told I can't have opinions on war (because I haven't fought in one), on management (because I haven't been a manager), on politics (because I haven't been the president of the USA) - on and on. And now on a class of unit in a game. Personally I think it's the height of ignorance. It's obvious that I don't need to have flown a ship in order to have a balance opinion about it. I have two eyes, I can see, I can read, I have a brain, I can think, and that's all that's necessary. I don't think it's rocket science. There's obviously an issue. My advice is, if you don't agree with my arguments, attack my arguments, but don't attack me or tell me I'm not allowed to have an opinion. It wouldn't work in a logic class, and it won't work here.
Bolding and re-quoting: "People who think that in order to have an opinion about something, you have to have direct personal experience with it."
Not sure who told you that and perhaps they did not specify (or your "conciousness" filtered it out) - but yes, in order to have a VALID OPINON (key word "valid") on something - you ought to have some experience with the subject matter.
You (as in any person) "can" have an opinion on anything you wish. Nobody should tell you otherwise. But that opinion of yours will not be valid without any experience - and everyone should be able to tell you that.
So having said that - yes, you may (you have the right to) have an opinion without having any experience, but everyone will see your opinion as invalid, unless backed by citations or personal experience.
The former will lead to people dismissing you "invalid" opinions, poking fun of you and perhaps worse...
Example use-case:
Brain surgery. You "may" definitely have an opinion on how its done or how it should be done (or improved), since you have eyes, ears, a brain and can read (as you've stated). But this opinion of yours will most likely be dismissed by any educated and logical person UNLESS you hold a certificate of a brain surgeon and have experience on the subject matter.
So PLEASE go get some experience with EVE Battleships - before trying to argue about validity of your opinions!
Nuff said. |
Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 02:50:17 -
[174] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steffles wrote: Nah not really. The onyx can get a battleship tank. Its a cruiser. The Eagle can get a battleship tank its a cruiser. Battlecruisers can get battleship tanks, actually as I demonstrated they get a hell of a lot more than both battleships and T3's yet theyr'e not battleships, they're mid way between battleships and cruisers if you like.
Admit you're wrong and we can move on to discussing fixing battleships, not nerfing T3's for no reason.
We already picked apart your shitfits. Literally nobody is agreeing with you here including CCP. "We" as in just you.
You gave no actual argument basically because you don't have one.
YOU are whinging about the T3 Proteus having some sort of uber tank @ 160k ehp yet I put up a T2 HAC that had 150k ehp, outranged your proteus by 30km optimal with the same guns and ammo, was faster yet your only criticism was it did 400 dps instead of 530 and had a slightly larger sig. You completely ignore that fact that being faster and having 30km more optimal with 0antimatter means its untouchable by your proteus. Your proteus is doing 30dps at 40k, while my eagle is doing 100dps.
I posted a T2 battlecruiser that blows your Proteus and T1 Battleship EHP out of the water at 190k ehp which pretty much destroys your argument that the T3 is overpowered because it can get battleship EHP. This T2 can get 40k ehp above the Proteus's.
I also pointed out that in the past when a ship or doctrine was overpowered that almost all large alliances and coalitions would use that ship or doctrine over any other (Drakes, Ishtar's etc) yet this apparantly overpowered ship is not even in the top three most used.
You're full of it.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18406
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 09:38:08 -
[175] - Quote
Steffles wrote: "We" as in just you.
Everyone in this thread says they are overpowered. CCP says they are overpowered. So yea, its just you.
Steffles wrote: You gave no actual argument basically because you don't have one.
Aside from highlighting the a huge number of bonuses and examples of why we use them over battleships.
Steffles wrote: YOU are whinging about the T3 Proteus having some sort of uber tank @ 160k ehp yet I put up a T2 HAC that had 150k ehp, outranged your proteus by 30km optimal with the same guns and ammo, was faster yet your only criticism was it did 400 dps instead of 530 and had a slightly larger sig. You completely ignore that fact that being faster and having 30km more optimal with 0antimatter means its untouchable by your proteus. Your proteus is doing 30dps at 40k, while my eagle is doing 100dps.
I posted a T2 battlecruiser that blows your Proteus and T1 Battleship EHP out of the water at 190k ehp which pretty much destroys your argument that the T3 is overpowered because it can get battleship EHP. This T2 can get 40k ehp above the Proteus's.
All of which are shitfits. They are either super easy to kill, easy to out maneuver or can't do any damage to an enemy fleet. You have been told this multiple times.
Steffles wrote: I also pointed out that in the past when a ship or doctrine was overpowered that almost all large alliances and coalitions would use that ship or doctrine over any other (Drakes, Ishtar's etc) yet this apparantly overpowered ship is not even in the top three most used.
remote titan doomsdays were horribly overpowered and only used by a few dosen, yet they still got nerfed. An overpowered ship is an overpowered ship. That said the only t3c not in the top 10 killers list is the legion so there another thing you are wrong about.
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Steffles
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2016.11.14 13:30:47 -
[176] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Steffles wrote: "We" as in just you.
Everyone in this thread says they are overpowered. CCP says they are overpowered. So yea, its just you. Steffles wrote: You gave no actual argument basically because you don't have one.
Aside from highlighting the a huge number of bonuses and examples of why we use them over battleships. Steffles wrote: YOU are whinging about the T3 Proteus having some sort of uber tank @ 160k ehp yet I put up a T2 HAC that had 150k ehp, outranged your proteus by 30km optimal with the same guns and ammo, was faster yet your only criticism was it did 400 dps instead of 530 and had a slightly larger sig. You completely ignore that fact that being faster and having 30km more optimal with 0antimatter means its untouchable by your proteus. Your proteus is doing 30dps at 40k, while my eagle is doing 100dps.
I posted a T2 battlecruiser that blows your Proteus and T1 Battleship EHP out of the water at 190k ehp which pretty much destroys your argument that the T3 is overpowered because it can get battleship EHP. This T2 can get 40k ehp above the Proteus's.
All of which are shitfits. They are either super easy to kill, easy to out maneuver or can't do any damage to an enemy fleet. You have been told this multiple times. Steffles wrote: I also pointed out that in the past when a ship or doctrine was overpowered that almost all large alliances and coalitions would use that ship or doctrine over any other (Drakes, Ishtar's etc) yet this apparantly overpowered ship is not even in the top three most used.
remote titan doomsdays were horribly overpowered and only used by a few dosen, yet they still got nerfed. An overpowered ship is an overpowered ship. That said the only t3c not in the top 10 killers list is the legion so there another thing you are wrong about. People saying they are overpowered doesn't mean they are overpowered. Proof is required and you have supplied none. I supplied lots.
Again bonuses mean nothing. The ship as a whole needs to be looked at and it has been and its been proven to NOT be overpowered.
None of which are shitfits. None of which are super easy to kill, not easy to outmaneuver and can do more damage than your silly Proteus fit.
None are in the top 3. End of story. You're wrong but simply too biased or too salty about T3C's to admit it.
Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18407
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Posted - 2016.11.14 17:39:12 -
[177] - Quote
Steffles wrote: People saying they are overpowered doesn't mean they are overpowered. Proof is required and you have supplied none. I supplied lots.
You provided a bunch of poorly fitted ships. I provided a ship that is better than the Imperiums megathron fleet mega on steroids. The issue is we have a cruiser pulling better than battleship stats, that is what makes the prot overpowered. I said before and I'll say it again, take away those bonuses and those stats a drastically reduced.
Steffles wrote:Again bonuses mean nothing. The ship as a whole needs to be looked at and it has been and its been proven to NOT be overpowered. [/qute] When? CCP is also saying these ships are overpowered, they have been a joke for years now, everyone knows they are over powered including you. Steffles wrote: None of which are shitfits.
All of your ideas are horribly flawed. Rapid lights vs a cane fleet? eagles with battleship sized sigs? using a rail navy brutis in web range? These are not sound plans. [quote=Steffles] None are in the top 3. End of story. You're wrong but simply too biased or too salty about T3C's to admit it.
Its at number 4 on that list. The top rated ship that isn't a svipul (EVEs most glaringly overpowered ship), isn't the most popular tackle interceptor and not the most used dictor. |
Zakks
State Protectorate Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2016.11.15 00:57:22 -
[178] - Quote
And the Loki is 5th. |
Zakks
State Protectorate Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2016.11.15 01:08:31 -
[179] - Quote
Faction/Navy Battleships seem to be in a pretty good place, based on the KBs. Mach definitely dominates the class.
Perhaps one issue with battleships is similar to battlecruisers, in that there is no real T2 option. I think both classes could use some attention but will not likely see any real adjustments until well into 2017 or even 2018. Just too much going on in other areas right now for CCP to try and rebalance them.
Better to leave them underpowered for now until time can be spent to properly look at the whole class. Too easy to powercreep with BS. |
Korhaka
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2016.11.15 02:19:29 -
[180] - Quote
In the real world, there is a reason why we don't use battleships anymore. Why make this huge expensive battleship when any smaller ship can just launch a missile through the side and sink it just as easily. It is reasonable to expect as technology changes, combat doctrine would also change. |
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