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Fubarski Caldari Centauri Project	Posted - 2007.04.06 17:32:00 - [181] Originally by: Saladin I really do not believe in consipracies and in real life, the most logical explaination is almost always the correct one. If you are fighting someone, and then suddenly you experience TS abuse or hacking, the perpertrator is most likely one of your enemies or an associate of that enemy. "I have nothing to base my accusations on other than blind trust, and a liberal use of Occams Razor." Kosovo was able to engage a number of allied aircraft during that particular conflict, and even brought down a few. Since the people most against the war, who could provide flight details... were protesters... I guess they were really spies. And the Chinese Embassy intercepting radio signals and passing intel onto the Kosovars never really happened. The most simple explanation possible only really sells if you're really simple minded. Fubar
Enre Sung Market Control Paradigm	Posted - 2007.04.06 17:40:00 - [182] Edited by: Enre Sung on 06/04/2007 17:38:43 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Social engineering also fits within the game where hacking is taking it out of the game and the obvious step after that would be dropping by someones house with a baseball bat, not quite the direction you want online gaming to go ey? The only thing that can stop a good Matchstick is a better Matchstick. If someone who actually knows what they're doing in regards to social engineering is trying to get you to do something, they'll get you to do it. A bad con man is as easy to find and stop as a script kiddie, and a good con man is as hard to stop as a high-skill hacker. Both are pretty illegal. Not going in support of either, just saying that the differences are not really there. People tend to fawn over social engineering because its practitioners are, by definition, good at making people think what they want them to think, and it's more of a "swashbuckling" thing than hacking. Originally by: Vily there is a difference between sneaking on someones TS server and listening, and verbally assaulting female members. if you think that that is legitimate in ANY WAY, you need to get a reality check Rockduiveltje, try again.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.04.06 17:44:00 - [183] Originally by: End Yourself Everyone saying "move to vent is no option" because this is just about asshats on the internet has to get a clue. Sorry woody. Only someone who is masochist or his primary goal is to be the victim and everyone feeling sorry for him would prefer telnet over ssh fx(to not get into windows vs unix) for running his corp/alliance whereever possible. I don't really know much about teamspeak and vent security but IF one of the two is more secure and one still insists on using the less secure option then the one to blame is oneself and noone else. I love it when people blame the victim. The only person who can be blamed here is the person who presumably committed a crime. Lets say theoretically, a chevy is easier to steal than a ford. Now if someone owns a chevy, is it their fault it was stolen since they didn't buy a ford, even though that ford could also be stolen, but with more difficulty? The logical end of your assertion is that if fallen souls didn't have voice coms, they wouldn't have to worry about it getting hacked.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2007.04.06 18:03:00 - [184] Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 06/04/2007 18:01:05 Truly unfortunate the community has come to this. It is possible however that the hacker may not be an eve player himself, but related to one and did it as a favor. -------------------
Zhajad Khalud The Red Rage	Posted - 2007.04.06 18:09:00 - [185] Edited by: Zhajad Khalud on 06/04/2007 18:07:14 Imho, this whole thing (and all related incidents) stems from 2 things mainly. Please note I do not attribute these to any specific corp/alliance, not even to one specific side of a larger conflict. 1) Lack of respect. The grudges in the game have become harder, a bad reputation does not prevent oneself from finding allies and once somehting like that happens a few times to an alliance, at least a few of its members feel it would be only just to happen to their enemies as well. 2) EVE rewards such behavior, and that is the truly sad thing. For an average, non-super-rich player in EVE war means quite a big risk of ingame cash and assets. POS warfare and capital ship battles add to this, effectively making some people not want to lose AT ANY COST. At least seen from the outside, the guys who do something like that usually dont seem to get caught & banned. They get massive ingame advantages from it (damaging enemy communications and morale severely) and most of the time, not even their corp/alliance gets a bad name from it (after all, it could be anyone doing it, so posters on the forum are quick to remind everyone), much less do they get a bad name themselves. In my opinion, this sad development will only get worse, until it gets to the point where ppl on the forums tell the victims how stupid they were to not employ such tactics on their opponents first. I do not know how to stop this, but with what values are at stake with today's EVE wars, I must say the game mechanics sure further it.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.04.06 18:18:00 - [186] Originally by: Fubarski Originally by: Saladin I really do not believe in consipracies and in real life, the most logical explaination is almost always the correct one. If you are fighting someone, and then suddenly you experience TS abuse or hacking, the perpertrator is most likely one of your enemies or an associate of that enemy. "I have nothing to base my accusations on other than blind trust, and a liberal use of Occams Razor." Kosovo was able to engage a number of allied aircraft during that particular conflict, and even brought down a few. Since the people most against the war, who could provide flight details... were protesters... I guess they were really spies. And the Chinese Embassy intercepting radio signals and passing intel onto the Kosovars never really happened. The most simple explanation possible only really sells if you're really simple minded. Fubar What Kosovars? Do you mean Serbians? What are you talking about? This is not a courtroom, there is no presumption of innocence. If a woman cheating on her husband turns up dead, 9 out of 10 times its the jealous husband, not the wife commiting suicide so the husband would look bad. That has nothing to do with blind trust or the Ostrich Rectum. What I am saying that when you are at war with someone, and with the EvE community the way it is now, its far more likely that your TS was hacked as part of meta-gaming effort of your enemy rather than a disgruntled alliance mate who became so angry he decided to tear everything down from the inside rather than just leave (what most people do) or contact the enemy and act as their agent. ----
Sae Marr Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.04.06 18:59:00 - [187] While the "hacker" could have probably gone about it more gracefully, I think everything goes when it comes to game-related comms. I'd never condone gaining access to someone's comms via an exploit, but I'd fully expect my server to be attacked; and certainly would not be outraged or even surprised if it happened. I realize this is a rather unpopular opinion, but if you feel necessary extrapolate this line of reasoning to tracing a person in RL and beating his ass, please don't bother, it's not nearly the same. -
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.06 20:52:00 - [188] omg i figured it out CCP is hacking TS servers to get us to buy eve voice
Frothgar Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.04.06 21:48:00 - [189] Meh. Not too many taboos left in the metagaming ****wit crowd Theft ingame and out? Check. RL out of game attacks? Check. All thats left really is murder. I bet BoB goes there first.
dinorryox Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.06 21:59:00 - [190] I not read every reply so forgive me if what I'm about to say has already been mentioned. I am surprised CCP would stoop so low in order to get eve players to pay and use their ingame voice comms [/url]
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.06 22:16:00 - [191] Edited by: Tearavygh Quillam on 06/04/2007 22:14:05 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Croesus What is the moral difference between hacking and using social engineering to get access to a ts server fx? Social engineering can be stopped/prevented by almost everyone, hacking can only be stopped by those who are good at it. Social engineering also fits within the game where hacking is taking it out of the game and the obvious step after that would be dropping by someones house with a baseball bat, not quite the direction you want online gaming to go ey? I could be mistaken, because I can't read Croesus' mind. He didn't refer to social engineering that was used in Eve (i.e. eve chats, evemail, evevoice, let's say Eve-o, too), he refers to social engineering out of the game to get access to a TS that it's also out of the game and could also be used for non-Eve purposes. If it's the case and if it was in Eve maybe you could stop it, by being cautious that a spy could be at the other end. If it's not Eve, you can't always suspect what's all about, except for being totally paranoic. Hacking and social engineering are two differents methods to get into someone's private affairs, one is more subtle and hasn't a good proved rate of success, the other is direct and very proveable. Social engineering and hacking both rely to "unguarded backdoors", so they are basically the same. So can't protect what you can't suspect it may be attacked. PS: Sry for typos.
easei Energy.	Posted - 2007.04.06 22:57:00 - [192] Pretty uncool because If its the "lady of dark rising" she really doesn't deserve that...It makes me depressed. But on a side note everyones trashed the idea of eve voice and yet it solves all of the out of game spy problems because they have to actully be in your corp to have access to voice comms. Where as the offender is running around on DR's TS is out of game and CCP can't, therefore won't do anything about it.
Artemis Byte Raging Phoenix Incorporated North Star Confederation	Posted - 2007.04.10 05:04:00 - [193] I knew where this was going and I was praying that it wasn't goons but then I saw the "goon.net" part and just had to share my experiences.I didn't read the entire thread (7 pages of CAOD tuns one into a homicidal manic rather quickly, sorry I'm a lightweight) but I'll assume you don't know who the g00ns are. The correct website is "g00ns.net" (note the zero's). It seems to have degraded/changed into a forums only but it used to be a website that had all their trophy kills, mostly recorded convo's of them getting various people to say they were "owned by g00ns.net", and other blackmail. I know this because our vent server was infiltrated by one of them (on another game), the person gained our trust and had his friends act as his voice until he was ready to take control of the server and trash our forums. I would seriously consider looking inward as our spy had been in our ranks for 3-5 months. They don't care about the game, they are in it for the pain they caused/will cause. Note however that the hacker didn't even spell the website right so it may be someone trying to pull a red-herring. I sincerely hope that whoever it is they move on without causing too much trouble to you.
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.10 06:15:00 - [194] Metagaming always sucks. It's taken a bigger and bigger part of EVE though and it will only grow. Sorry to hear about this FS. The name of the server though after the change is anybodys guess why it was changed to that.
DANGEROUS Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.10 09:52:00 - [195] I feel for you Mitch, however, - as several people have already said this is sadly common nowadays. - For at least 18 months BoB have employed slaves to 'spy' on TS. It basically makes the ability to communicate in combat almost impossibleremoving 85% of the fun from an op being based on military and tactical prowess - to who has a spy in their TS!! The people who LIVE eve (as i once did) HAVE to win, even by using spies. Personally i HATE that part of this game - i mean - its not RL - should be fun etc etc - - it takes FOREVER to build some things in eve - be that a titan - or a full 200 man bs fleet with support - - - it removes the point of it nearly 100% when insucure comms costs you such assets!!
Xscaped Pensioner Trident Industries	Posted - 2007.04.10 10:12:00 - [196] Edited by: Xscaped Pensioner on 10/04/2007 10:08:15 Originally by: Sae Marr I realize this is a rather unpopular opinion, but if you feel necessary extrapolate this line of reasoning to tracing a person in RL and beating his ass, please don't bother, it's not nearly the same. However it may be rather satisfying to do so whether right or wrong
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.10 10:25:00 - [197] Originally by: Admiral Feelgood Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Crucifier Tbh you got what you had coming to you nabs Its absolutely astounding to see people supporting such illegal activities that are used to get ahead in a game of internet spaceships. Sorry to burst your bubble of righteous indignation but there's a group named goon that have been messing with TS servers completely independent of EVE for a couple or three years now. I don't believe this was game related, just TS shenanigans. That still doesn't even make it legal, let alone allowed. Spying using a password that was given to you or you bribed someone to get is different from hacking. One is illegal, one isn't. One can get you in jail for a decade, one can't. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio (back up, new address!)
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.10 10:27:00 - [198] Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Ironic to see the BOB slaves complain about something enemies of BOB has had to endure for years If u fight BOB - get used to it. If u fight Goons - get used to it. Most people start screaming hax when something doesn't work as expected, it only takes a few people to change that into "our enemy haxed" us intentionally. Note that no proof whatsoever needs to be shown, just saying it on ts will set the rumourmill going. Couple that with "spies" that just repeat words and never check and there you go. -- .sig apathy ftw
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:54:00 - [199] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Admiral Feelgood Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Crucifier Tbh you got what you had coming to you nabs Its absolutely astounding to see people supporting such illegal activities that are used to get ahead in a game of internet spaceships. Sorry to burst your bubble of righteous indignation but there's a group named goon that have been messing with TS servers completely independent of EVE for a couple or three years now. I don't believe this was game related, just TS shenanigans. That still doesn't even make it legal, let alone allowed. Spying using a password that was given to you or you bribed someone to get is different from hacking. One is illegal, one isn't. One can get you in jail for a decade, one can't. So if I conn that old lady next door to give me her creditcard and code and take $200 off her bankaccount, that is legal? SWEEEET! As said before, social engineering to gain access can be illegal depending on where you do it and what you do with it. Though fact is, just like with TS hacking, the probability of getting prosecuted are practically zero. So all the 'oh my god, its illegal' comments are getting rather tiresome and silly, noone is gonna do anything about it anyway.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:54:00 - [200] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Admiral Feelgood Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Crucifier Tbh you got what you had coming to you nabs Its absolutely astounding to see people supporting such illegal activities that are used to get ahead in a game of internet spaceships. Sorry to burst your bubble of righteous indignation but there's a group named goon that have been messing with TS servers completely independent of EVE for a couple or three years now. I don't believe this was game related, just TS shenanigans. That still doesn't even make it legal, let alone allowed. Spying using a password that was given to you or you bribed someone to get is different from hacking. One is illegal, one isn't. One can get you in jail for a decade, one can't. So if I conn that old lady next door to give me her creditcard and code and take $200 off her bankaccount, that is legal? SWEEEET! As said before, social engineering to gain access can be illegal depending on where you do it and what you do with it. Though fact is, just like with TS hacking, the probability of getting prosecuted are practically zero. So all the 'oh my god, its illegal' comments are getting rather tiresome and silly, noone is gonna do anything about it anyway.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:56:00 - [201] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Ironic to see the BOB slaves complain about something enemies of BOB has had to endure for years If u fight BOB - get used to it. If u fight Goons - get used to it. Most people start screaming hax when something doesn't work as expected, it only takes a few people to change that into "our enemy haxed" us intentionally. Note that no proof whatsoever needs to be shown, just saying it on ts will set the rumourmill going. Couple that with "spies" that just repeat words and never check and there you go. Actually BoB freely admits to gaining access to their enemies TS. The only debate there is whether that is illegal or not (social engineering vs. hacking). But since neither is gonna get anyone in trouble, the difference is rather irrelevant IMO.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:56:00 - [202] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Ironic to see the BOB slaves complain about something enemies of BOB has had to endure for years If u fight BOB - get used to it. If u fight Goons - get used to it. Most people start screaming hax when something doesn't work as expected, it only takes a few people to change that into "our enemy haxed" us intentionally. Note that no proof whatsoever needs to be shown, just saying it on ts will set the rumourmill going. Couple that with "spies" that just repeat words and never check and there you go. Actually BoB freely admits to gaining access to their enemies TS. The only debate there is whether that is illegal or not (social engineering vs. hacking). But since neither is gonna get anyone in trouble, the difference is rather irrelevant IMO.
MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:59:00 - [203] Having not read pages 3-present (time is money after all). This is a problem on a number of TS server, with people joining with random names, loggin off then funny things like music playingin the background without anyone who is visible doing it. Seems like there are ways to be invisible on the servers, its one of those things. Its like accepting someone on your MSN Messanger. I had some one request to add them as a friend (which I get a few, all legit), about 2 weeks later I found my hotmail was hacked and info about all my websites that i visit, even my Website Host, had been changed. The only way I found out was the fact the email address of the person, was set on my Web Host as my Contact email, and the address was changed to some other country. How they managed to get into hotmail through Messanger, with me only accepting the invite (and nothing like accepting downloads) I will never know. __________________________ My sig changes once work gets boring...
MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:59:00 - [204] Having not read pages 3-present (time is money after all). This is a problem on a number of TS server, with people joining with random names, loggin off then funny things like music playingin the background without anyone who is visible doing it. Seems like there are ways to be invisible on the servers, its one of those things. Its like accepting someone on your MSN Messanger. I had some one request to add them as a friend (which I get a few, all legit), about 2 weeks later I found my hotmail was hacked and info about all my websites that i visit, even my Website Host, had been changed. The only way I found out was the fact the email address of the person, was set on my Web Host as my Contact email, and the address was changed to some other country. How they managed to get into hotmail through Messanger, with me only accepting the invite (and nothing like accepting downloads) I will never know. __________________________ My sig changes once work gets boring...
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.10 15:54:00 - [205] Originally by: Malachon Draco Actually BoB freely admits to gaining access to their enemies TS. The only debate there is whether that is illegal or not (social engineering vs. hacking). But since neither is gonna get anyone in trouble, the difference is rather irrelevant IMO. Ohrly?! Spying is the norm here in EVE, I don't know why bob is being referenced again, most big alliances have spies among their enemies with TS access, who cares what bob supposedly admits to? The complaint here was that someone got on their TS with elevated privileges and started disrupting operations including banning people. Not just relaying intel which as i said, is pretty normal in this game. Thats a whole different ballgame then what bob admits to and what most (spying) people in EVE do. Why would you confuse whats going on here and what everyone and their mother seem to do to gain intel on their enemies? -- .sig apathy ftw
Yodaron Ballsithor Gallente Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:14:00 - [206] Edited by: Yodaron Ballsithor on 10/04/2007 17:10:05 Originally by: Frothgar Meh. Not too many taboos left in the metagaming **wit crowd Theft ingame and out? Check. RL out of game attacks? Check. All thats left really is murder. I bet BoB goes there first.** The highlighted text is totally uncalled for and should net the poster a ban.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:24:00 - [207] Edited by: Victor Vision on 10/04/2007 17:22:51 This is adressed to all those who think out of game attacks or other - similar - below the belt punches are valid strategies in EVE: Attacks like the one on Dark-Rising show that some people need to learn that EVE is a game. Once that elementary truth is understood, the next steps are easy. Understand that other EVE players are playing the same game you are playing. Logically speaking they are playing the game together with you. Now ask yourselves how you would usualy treat pleople you are playing a game with, say in a comfortable setting in your home at a table. Last step is applying that behaviour to how you treat others in EVE, and on the forums. The result will not only improve your personal forum and eve experience, but also that of others. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
Zrevak Ashek Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:28:00 - [208] Originally by: Yodaron Ballsithor Edited by: Yodaron Ballsithor on 10/04/2007 17:10:05 Originally by: Frothgar Meh. Not too many taboos left in the metagaming **wit crowd Theft ingame and out? Check. RL out of game attacks? Check. All thats left really is murder. I bet BoB goes there first.** The highlighted text is totally uncalled for and should net the poster a ban. His point would be that ppl are constantly taking metagaming further and further - and ask what would be next? RL murder and suicides has been commited in other MMOG's over the loss of virtual items, and it would be naive to believe ppl in a game like Eve (where death penalties and loss is much greater and severe compared to other MMOG's) would'nt go there if things continue to escalate. But ure right in that an entire community(BOB) should'nt be singled out in such a manner.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:47:00 - [209] Edited by: Victor Vision on 10/04/2007 17:44:15 Originally by: Zrevak Ashek ... His point would be that ppl are constantly taking metagaming further and further - and ask what would be next? RL murder and suicides has been commited in other MMOG's over the loss of virtual items, and it would be naive to believe ppl in a game like Eve (where death penalties and loss is much greater and severe compared to other MMOG's) would'nt go there if things continue to escalate. ... Mr. Zrevak Ashek, I feel it is the communities responsibility to try to abort such a development as much as we can. Look at some of the more humorous posts on CAOD, many readers and posters still have the ability to laugh about themselves and take the game as a game. At the same time I have to say that in my opinion mentally unstable people that are not able to differentiate virtual 'reality' from real reality are not well advised to play EVE. Due to EVEs sometimes harsh nature, the realisation that all is only a game, and the ability to keep emotional distance when required, is very important. Regards, VV EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
ElweSingollo The Vanyar	Posted - 2007.04.10 18:37:00 - [210] Originally by: Vily Edited by: Vily on 05/04/2007 23:51:49 Originally by: Ty'derian Originally by: Zrevak Ashek Originally by: Mitch Taylor Originally by: Major Stormer As much as I dislike Mitch and Fallen Souls, this kind of ** is never needed. Lets keep it INGAME people. bearing inmind how ed off i am right now, you just made me smile mate. :) Ironic to see the BOB slaves complain about something enemies of BOB has had to endure for years If u fight BOB - get used to it. If u fight Goons - get used to it. 100% agree there is a difference between sneaking on someones TS server and listening, and verbally assaulting female members. if you think that that is legitimate in ANY WAY, you need to get a reality check Neither is legitimate means of playing the game Vily both are utterly lame ways to play and complete asshats for doing it. CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature**

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