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Macros. why do you hate them so much?

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ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:13:00 - [31] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:10:04 Originally by: Aioa In answer to the OP's question: because people like a good witchhunt ;-) i think you've hit the nail on the head. which is a shame, since i was quite enjoying this thread.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Blaine Institute for Advanced Research Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:14:00 - [32] It is in human nature to be competive. Some will do anything to win. So saying that isk will be bought. If anyone should get the money for the isk it should be CCP IMO.
Lynae Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:25:00 - [33] Originally by: ry ry Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much? I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games. Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough? While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now. Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation. ___ Originally by: Dark Shikari They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:28:00 - [34] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:29:30 i hate people who use macros obviously because they make isk while being afk and thus hurting us other players and because they make laaaaaaaag, i hate laaaaag, we already have enough lag. i wish ccp would do something against the chinese macro ****** in loes/agoze/murethand area that are there since along time. theres an armada of them (noobcorp haulers with stupid names) that totally infested the area described above. it is just ridiculous. it is an illness that needs to be cut out. if u see some guys shooting haulers in this area dont engage them ! theyre doing the community a service. thank you !!
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:30:00 - [35] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17 Quote: I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games. Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough? While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now. Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation. but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds. are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:32:00 - [36] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21 Originally by: LUH 3471 chinese macro ****** did you just type six asterisks? :D also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned?
Amphetaminer Grumpy Old Men	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:38:00 - [37] mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!)
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:40:00 - [38] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:39:50 Originally by: Amphetaminer mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!) not having a full-time job, or owning a better computer are also an unfair advantage. not many OMFG STUDENTS CAN PLAY ALL AFTERNOON AND I CAN ONLY PLAY AT EVENINGS AND WEEKENDS WHEN THE KIDS AREN'T ON THE COMPUTER!1!!1 rants on here. which isn't to say there shouldn't be - they'd be awesome.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:41:00 - [39] Because I have a mining character. The value of ores is directly effected by ISk farming and Macro mining. As a result the time spent vs isk earned for Mining as a player of the game is much much lower than it actually should be. The resultant effect is that the method by which isk farmers and macro mining impact the playing experience of legitimate gamers. Try mining and you'll see.... Whilst Timecards allow players to purchase isk and create inflation, the effect is diminished and controllable, so the impact on those who mine (the lifeblood of eve) is improved, rather than diminished. So whilst selling timecards is a pain to players, its less of a irritation and hinderence than farming for cash. Incidently its not the farmers that I blame, but those who buy isk. If you know a Isk Purchaser from outside timecards petition them.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:41:00 - [40] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:36:01 Quote: There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money. edit: nobody accused me of nuffink. i just can't read. I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game. i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it. Stop thinking on yourself and pay attention. you will see about 170 thousand other people.. alot of them areminers. And these are affected directly, they have no chance of competing against macroers. Macro affect the gameplay of these people... and very badly. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Slithysss	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:42:00 - [41] I hate macro`s because: - They outmine me, by just being there 23/7 which I can`t do because I need sleep, seems kinda unfair to "normal" miners no ? - They influence the market by mining inhuman amounts. - And most of all, some guy had 3 hulk accounts WRECKING the ******* belts of my fav system !!! and I`m pretty sure he`s no the only one doing it... [ Will strip for ore :D ]
Lynae Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:44:00 - [42] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17 but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds. If they use no macros, they are not cheating. If they are not cheating, there is no reason to be upset. It is legitimate to "swarm" an area. It is great to defend it and to keep all the profits for yourself or your alliance. This shows teamplay and dedication. As long as those people play the game correctly. Originally by: ry ry are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned? No. There is nothing wrong with "carebears". They play the game just how they like it. And they are no threat to EVE and the economy, not as macroers are. Even if you play EVE each day for 16h straight, you will never gain the same (infused) profit as a player who cheats EVE for 24h/7d using macros. ___ Originally by: Dark Shikari They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:44:00 - [43] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17 Quote: I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games. Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough? While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now. Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation. but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds. are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned? No because they are legitimate gamers. For them mining is a means to an end in game, be it construction, research or just funding. It annoys me, and I have recourse (be it wardec or piracy) to affect that.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:45:00 - [44] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:44:33 Originally by: LUH 3471 chinese macro ****** did you just type six asterisks? :D also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned? i dont care about nationality or color or where from. no need to insult my intelligence or do you have to do anything in any way with the chinese running around hauler missions nonstop in the area i described above? wouldnt surprise me
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:48:00 - [45] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Stop thinking on yourself and pay attention. You do realise i play eve for my own entertainment, right? anyhoo - why can't you compete with the macro miners? i tried mining once, found it more profitable than ratting but so ******* tedious i had to stop. or do you mean it's cut into your profit margin?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:50:00 - [46] Originally by: LUH 3471 Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:43:31 Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21 Originally by: LUH 3471 chinese macro ****** did you just type six asterisks? :D also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned? i dont care about nationality or color or where from. no need to insult my intelligence or do you have to do anything in any way with the chinese running around hauler missions nonstop in the area i described above? i'm not insulting your intelligence. you emulated the profanity filter, which amused me, and then characterised macro miners as 'chinese' which is, as i said, a bit stereotypical.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:51:00 - [47] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:52:28 nt
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:53:00 - [48] People dont like macro miners because they are cheating, they are using a 3rd party program to gain an advantage over others and its prohibited by ccp, even tho they dont directly effect me i still dislike them because they are doing something that is not allowed, something that if it would be allowed a lot of people would take advantage of.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:56:00 - [49] actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think. and people hate them as it creates an imbalance in the game, due to ISK selling, as well as going against the EULA. need more reasons? ------------ Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Malibu Stacey Gallente Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:03:00 - [50] Originally by: 000Hunter000 Sadly ccp has their own cheat to 'win eve' So ur rich in RL? kewl, go buy a few dozen gtc's, sell them for iskies.. presto u 'won eve'. to be entirely fair, i did consider doing just that a few weeks ago, but then i realized that wouldn't make me much better then the peeps who buy isk for rl money, only the rl money goes to ccp instead of some cyber maffia type. Sadly for you, no you didn't "win eve" buy having a large wallet (for the perfect example see the widely documented BoB vs ASCN conflict, look through past issues of EvE Tribune). Selling GTC's for ISK is legitimate within the terms of the EULA (you know those rules things you agree to abide by when you install & run the client). Buying GTC's from whatever source for real money (to then sell on for ISK) means that CCP get a large amount of that real money which is hopefully used to pay the developers salaries, pay for the running of the cluster, stock the vending machines in CCP headquarters with Quafe, basically keep EvE running & help improve it. Also the ISK you get in return was earned by a player doing whatever they do to earn that ISK (ratting, mining, missions, whatever) & that person had to pay for their account over x months to earn that ISK which means more money going to CCP for the above things. Buying ISK from sellers circumvents CCP entirely which is a very bad thingÖ. Sure someone pays for the macro accounts every month but they are generating ISK 23/7. Most macro miner operations I've seen are 4 or 5 mining barges in 1 system with 1 barge per belt jetcan mining while a hauler visits each one in a round robin system tractoring & emptying the cans & then docking to empty the hold of ore. The other operation I've seen is 4 or 5 Mackinaws in an Ice belt again serviced by a hauler with tractor beams. Even with having to pay for 5 or 6 accounts it must be very profitable for the operators to run since they are all over empire. Imagine the effect just a couple of these operations in each region are having on the prices of low end minerals & ice products. Recently I've seen an increase in single character macro operations which I assume is someone loading up the bot program (which they paid real money for) & setting it to mine a full hold & then dock, empty hold & repeat while they are at work/school/sleep/whatever so they can basically cheat. --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:04:00 - [51] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17 so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating? how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me. By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees. edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Andrue on 25/04/2007 12:09:31 Originally by: sakana actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think. It is certainly possible to write 'intelligent' macros. At work we use a macro program to automate server and network maintennance and it's quite capable of reading the screen and making its own decisions. It can be quite eerie sometimes when you are interacting with it. I would, though, that CCP have taken steps to make it difficult for such programs to determine client state. I can think of several ideas off the top of my head that would be a pain to work around. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Please don't read this signature.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: sakana actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think. It is. No question about it. At work we use a macro program to automate server and network maintennance and it's quite capable of reading the screen and making its own decisions. It can be quite eerie sometimes when you are interacting with it. it also makes them more easy to detect, i understand. chatting to a blizz employee (boo! hiss!) when i played wow he told me that bots were much easier to spot than macros due to their monotonous predictability, even with variable timers wrote in.
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:18:00 - [54] Originally by: ry ry anyhoo - why can't you compete with the macro miners? i tried mining once, found it more profitable than ratting but so ******* tedious i had to stop. Think this is more the entire point of the thread, mining is so boring and dull and predictable it draws macroers to it as it is so easy to macro compared to other in game scenarios though there are macro's that rat and do missions. Make mining a little more unpredictable and you stunt the macroers ability to work, but mmo's will always draw macroers for the more menial and boring tasks within a game its something that can never really be defeated, and unless you want an ever increasing costly battle with macroers, its easier to go with the flow and add low level scripting functionality to the client, this levels the playing field giving every player the ability to do the same thing, this nukes the advantage macroers have, yes there may be some side effects such as massive inflation due to this, but as everyone in the game world now has access to these methods these issues can be addressed cleanly without worrying about impact on the rest of the player base who doesn't have the tools (because everyone has the tools). Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
Ebusitanus Caldari Mythical Warriors and Workers	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:21:00 - [55] It irritates me that when I log in to mine I have to babysit my operation through each mining cycle. I can live with that if those are the rules and how the game was designed. It irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand? Sure, I could say to hell with the game or mining, or even better, get me a macro program myself and join the belt looting. What sort of message goes through the n00bs (like myself) when you see this going on day in day out in front of you? ------------------------------------------------ "Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!" Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:24:00 - [56] not sure about including a macro engine in Eve. i don't think it'd be a good thing. Human error plays a big part of the game - in some fights the only reason you win is because the other guy ****** up. add another level of automation and that user-error factor will disappear and pvp will simply become a case of who clicks first.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:25:00 - [57] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17 so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating? how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me. By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees. edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question. OK, picture the situation: Person A is an honest player. He wakes up, goes to work, and comes home again. He logs onto EVE. He gets into his ratting ship / mining ship / trading ship (etc), and gets about his business. He plays for about 2 hours. In order to maximise his profits in these 2 hours, he is encouraged to attempt more difficult tasks, to venture into higher risk areas for greater rewards, and to gain associations with networks of friends for their mutual benefits. When he becomes ultra-rich, it is through good fair playing, and we can all respect him for it. Person B is a macro-user. He wakes up, logs into EVE, and sets his macro program running. It starts mining in a safe area, doing monotonous work that no player would keep up without branching into higher risk / higher difficulty jobs. He goes to work. He comes home. He goes out for a kick-around. He goes out with his friends. He goes to bed. The next morning when he logs onto EVE again (having been booted by the nights DT), he finds he is now very wealthy. He repeats. By the end of the week he is a billionaire, and he has barely looked at EVE twice. He now has significant rewards over "honest players", despite not having achieved anything. Person C is a hacker. He wakes up, logs into EVE, and accesses his hacked stuffs. He changes the value of "isk in wallet" to "10,000,000,000". He is a billionaire, and has barely looked at EVE. He now has significant rewards over "honest players", despite not having achieved anything. Now I ask you- aside from the fact that it took Person B a few weeks to achieve what Person C did in 10 minutes, in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating? --------
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:27:00 - [58] Originally by: Ebusitanus [...Ebusitanus is irritated...] It [also] irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand? whenever i need cash i sit and run missions or rat whilst either watching TV or playing Nintendo DS. It hardly requires much attention, and i'd imagine mining even less so.
Malibu Stacey Gallente Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:28:00 - [59] Originally by: ry ry so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating? how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me. By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees. I think the dislike stems from the fact that they're turing our game into their job. There are very easy ways to differentiate between a macro miner & "a super dedicated miner". I won't go into details here but you can check out the ingame chat channel macrointel & ask there. FYI. I don't mine nor have any inclination to however there are people who like to do nothing but & have their efforts ingame devalued by the clients running macro's 23/7. See some of the responses from the miners on this thread. Ore is to an extent a finite resource (albeit replenished on a regular basis), if one person can run an operation of 4 of 5 barges stripping belts 23 hours a day & you can run one barge for 1/4 of that time how are you supposed to compete? --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Lynae Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:29:00 - [60] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17 so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating? Yes. Originally by: ry ry how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? Easy. You get to know the people in your region. You talk to them. Some macro "swarms" are widely known (look at Starbases & Outposts forum, there is a list somewhere). Most of them are in a NPC-Corp, but basically it goes down to intuition. Sometimes you can steal their ore or bump them away and when they do not respond you can be fairly sure. One big macroing operation (6 Barges, 2 Itty V) reacted in the same way, everytime you switched cans. Ore theft detected -> Can renamed to some obscure signs, Itty V warps in, steals "my ore", gets shot down. I never got a response to my convo or reactions in local. But, in a way you are right. There is no 100% method to detect macro users. You can only collect evidence and make a call based on your judgement and intuition. Thats why it is even harder for CCP. Originally by: ry ry and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me. They mine more and sell cheaper, thus ruining the market. It works for them, because they are online 23h/7d and mining. Someone who must work and sleep cannot compete with them. It works like RL. When the big supermarket over there has opening hours from 7 AM to 2 AM, the small store next door (open from 7 AM to 7 PM) cannot keep up. The difference is, there are still workers in both stores, even more shifts in the big supermarket, so it is fair. Imagine a macro miner as a 24h store, just with 1 robot as the only personnel. Does not sleep, needs no food, water or air. Always there for your customers. How should someone compete with that? Originally by: ry ry By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees. The only problem is that macroing is against the TOS/EULA and therefore cheating. I have nothing against ISK farmers who actively play the game for lets say 16h. ___ Originally by: Dark Shikari They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.

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