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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:17:00 -
[1]
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
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Kirianshalee
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:19:00 -
[2]
A macrominer is not a person but a computer program hense the word macro
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:20:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kirianshalee
A macrominer is not a person but a computer program hense the word macro
nah, they need somebody sat there watching them.
a macro is just a series of instructions, not some kind of omnipotent AI.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:24:00 -
[5]
'macro' is a someone playing EVE on a script. Be it 'macro mining' or 'macro missioning' or whatever.
I don't think it's fair to gain in EVE in that fashion.
The other place of 'issue' is the percieved correlation between 'farmers' and 'isk sellers'. I'm not so clear on how/where that happens, but it's 'generally held' that there's communities who make a living from EVE, by running multiple accounts, grinding the isks, and selling the isks.
I don't mind the 'farming' per-se, although I'll admit it does get irritating to see the same people prevending you from doing whatever (be it complex, mining, or ... well whatever really). However I do object to isk selling. Similar problem to the macro-mining - I shouldn't be able to use my credit card and salary to gain a significant advantage in EVE. Which is why it's against the rules, and quite rightly IMO. However I still see frequent 'buy my isks' adverts in faction channels, and even get spams within EVE. My f12 key is in danger of wearing out ...
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:23:01
Quote:
There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
yay! the first accusation of buying money off ebay. still waiting for the first accusation of being a macro miner. and Chinese.
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: James Lyrus
The other place of 'issue' is the percieved correlation between 'farmers' and 'isk sellers'. I'm not so clear on how/where that happens, but it's 'generally held' that there's communities who make a living from EVE, by running multiple accounts, grinding the isks, and selling the isks.
but isk sold re-enters eve's economy, so it's not exactly causing inflation.
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Ebusitanus
Caldari
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:30:00 -
[8]
The trolling is strong in this thread.
------------------------------------------------
"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar
Decimus Corp
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:32:00 -
[9]
macro miners IF they are isk sellers have a wider impact on the game, that is why they are hated so much.
basically, it wont impact your personal game that much, but on the grander interlinking scheme of things it affects the whole game for the reasons already stated.
oh and that guy wasnt accusing you of buying isk LOL
-NEVER CONFUSE OPINNION WITH FACT-
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ry ry
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad.
---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:36:00 -
[11]
Well, they don't irk my chain too much.
ever even seen a macro/bot/japanese letters for names flying a "obviously" bought titan thingy.
Though...most of the problems posted on these forums evade my sight as well. Like the amarr problem, or the drone problem...or the belt problems...or the DT...extended DT..whatnot.. 
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:23:01
Quote:
There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
yay! the first accusation of buying money off ebay. still waiting for the first accusation of being a macro miner. and Chinese.
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: ry ry
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad.
so macro mining is bad because it lets some people ruin the game experience for themselves? B the same merit you could argue that spending your entire life mission running in empire, or sat in a station margin trading defeats the point of the game too.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grunanca
May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
yeah, i misread it. sorry.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:43:00 -
[15]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:41:20
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:39:38
Originally by: Jessica Lorelei
basically, it wont impact your personal game that much, but on the grander interlinking scheme of things it affects the whole game for the reasons already stated.
but to what extent does it effect me*?
every time i drink a glass of water, some tiny part of it passed through (EDIT: a well known German dictator) some point. Doesn't mean i'm chugging down a steaming mug of his urine.
the macro hate just seems a little bit.. hazy. its a sort of unfocsed rage that loosely involves a hatred of anybody who might not be 'western' and does a lot of mining/plexes. I just don't get it.
*or you, obviously.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: ry ry
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad.
so macro mining is bad because it lets some people ruin the game experience for themselves? B the same merit you could argue that spending your entire life mission running in empire, or sat in a station margin trading defeats the point of the game too.
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:45:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Andrue on 25/04/2007 10:43:21
Note:This is my personal view assuming complete freedom of choice. When playing Eve I accept to being limited by the EULA at all times 
In general terms I take the view that as long as the macro is only providing automation of simple repetitive tasks, requires regular and frequent operator monitoring/assistance and functions by normal interaction with the client (ie;doesn't rely on hacks or generating its own packets) it is okay.
This is why I see nothing wrong in using tools such as the Logitech G15 keyboard to fire multiple keystrokes into the Eve client. All they do is save the player from RSI and wear and tear on the keyboard.
I would also have no problem using the Windows Macro Recorder to send mouse commands although from experience with other games it probably wouldn't work.
Where I would draw the line is when the macro includes code to detect and respond to game state or when it relies on hacking or packet detection/generation.
The problem for game developers like CCP is that the point at which a simple UI event generator turns into an intelligent game playing tool can be blurred and it is safer and simpler to just say "no" to all macros. I can understand and fully respect that position 
And why? Because as soon as a macro can 'play' a game it becomes easy to automate the acquisition of in-game items and that fuels inflation and out-of-game item sales. It can seriously disrupt the balance of an MMORPG and can be a factor in the creation of 'sweat shops'.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca
May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however...
yeah, i misread it. sorry.
np:)
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grunanca
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:50:00 -
[20]
I think the trillions of isk allowed to enter and remain in the game via bugged complexes is more of an influence on the Eve economy than macro-miners will be in the next couple of years.
__________
If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
brakespear
Minmatar
Wayward Brewing
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: brakespear on 25/04/2007 10:47:55
Depends on your point of view......if you don't find it annoying that an ingame character's buying power can depend on the size and disposability of their RL income then i guess you wouldn't find people selling ISK annoying....personally it annoys me no end 
edit - and yes i agree with the two posts above which appeared whilst i was typing :)
--------------------------------------------------
brakespear - the lowest common denominator |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
I agree. I personally have misgivings about the whole GTC to Isk thing. It cheapens the value of Isk (I worked for my money over three years and I'm proud of being a billionaire even if I'm not the richest guy in the game). The only saving grace is that it helps fund the game and might in some cases mean that a player who would have quit because they can't handle their in-game finances might continue to play.
I still think it's a ****ty thing to do though 
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
Malibu Stacey
Gallente
Playboy Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:53:00 -
[23]
The problem isn't the macro miners. It's the losers who buy ISK from them.
Simple solution to macro miners & other operations who generate ISK to sell for real money: remove their market.
Setup a GM division to hunt out the scum who buy ISK & start temporarily banning them & removing the bought ISK from their accounts. Problem solves itself from that point.
CCP have tried to address this with allowing people to trade ISK for GTC's but it's only a small step. There are still too many sites out there selling ISK. Take a look round most "community" sites & you'll find banner ads for ISK sellers where you can buy one billion ISK for less than I would spend on an average Saturday night out. That's just plain wrong.
---
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! |
Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
Indeed! And im totally against selling GTCs. However (not saying that it aint bad), its not as bad as the farmers. A farmer is generating isk, especially the mission and complex runner ones, a player buying a GTC will just move money from one point to another. More isk into the game is worse than the same amount of ISK moved to another wallet. But then again, it should not be allowed.
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Grunanca
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:59:00 -
[25]
Found the link: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=437
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Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Minmatar
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
Macro's by themselves are not the problem, we use them in excel for example ;-) . It becomes a problem when people abuse these automated scripts/applications to gain an unfair advantage over otehr players in Eve.
I point you to the Devblog: The price of ISK
Bottom line is, you should not use any program or script to advance yourself over others in Eve. The use of these programs by malicious people and the problems that causes are described in the Blog.
Ssoraszh
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Aioa
Planetary Assault Systems
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malibu Stacey
The problem isn't the macro miners. It's the losers who buy ISK from them.
Damn right....I mean, what sort of bed-wetting virgin do you need to be to buy ISK for RL cash? Yet, judging by the amount of farmers/ISK-sales websites about, it must be a very common thing indeed. I fail to even comprehend it :S
In answer to the OP's question: because people like a good witchhunt ;-)
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:08:33
read the devblog, and this is what i got from it:
Quote:
1. Macro mining
irritating
2. Spamming
irritating
3. Account hacking
kinda.. maybe.. you know.. your own fault?
4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up!
proper bad. but how common? and the changes in the t2 lottery & invention etc. mean this will be less effective. besides, people are CONSTANTLY creating trade cartels without selling any of the proceeds.
5. Customer support suffers ( = you suffer)
couldn't possibly comment. certainly it takes up time, but probably less time than investigating incorrect OMFG <random user> IS DONIG THE MACREOS!!! petitions and people trying to get back stuff that got legitimately scammed off them.
i'm not pro-isk seller, or pro-macro miner, or particularly pro-anything. i'm just a little bit anti-hysteria.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:12:00 -
[29]
Sadly ccp has their own cheat to 'win eve'
So ur rich in RL? kewl, go buy a few dozen gtc's, sell them for iskies.. presto u 'won eve'.
to be entirely fair, i did consider doing just that a few weeks ago, but then i realized that wouldn't make me much better then the peeps who buy isk for rl money, only the rl money goes to ccp instead of some cyber maffia type.
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Callthetruth
Caldari
Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:12:00 -
[30]
cause they are bad mmmkay
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:13:00 -
[31]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:10:04
Originally by: Aioa
In answer to the OP's question: because people like a good witchhunt ;-)
i think you've hit the nail on the head.
which is a shame, since i was quite enjoying this thread.
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uNtOldPAIN
Minmatar
Blaine Institute for Advanced Research
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:14:00 -
[32]
It is in human nature to be competive. Some will do anything to win. So saying that isk will be bought. If anyone should get the money for the isk it should be CCP IMO.
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Lynae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games.
Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough?
While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now.
Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation.
___
Originally by: Dark Shikari
They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
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LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:28:00 -
[34]
Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:29:30
i hate people who use macros obviously because they make isk while being afk and thus hurting us other players and because they make laaaaaaaag, i hate laaaaag, we already have enough lag.
i wish ccp would do something against the chinese macro ****** in loes/agoze/murethand area that are there since along time.
theres an armada of them (noobcorp haulers with stupid names) that totally infested the area described above.
it is just ridiculous. it is an illness that needs to be cut out.
if u see some guys shooting haulers in this area dont engage them ! theyre doing the community a service. thank you !!
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:30:00 -
[35]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17
Quote:
I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games.
Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough?
While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now.
Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation.
but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds.
are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:32:00 -
[36]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21
Originally by: LUH 3471
chinese macro ******
did you just type six asterisks? :D
also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned?
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Amphetaminer
Grumpy Old Men
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:38:00 -
[37]
mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!)
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:40:00 -
[38]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:39:50
Originally by: Amphetaminer
mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!)
not having a full-time job, or owning a better computer are also an unfair advantage.
not many OMFG STUDENTS CAN PLAY ALL AFTERNOON AND I CAN ONLY PLAY AT EVENINGS AND WEEKENDS WHEN THE KIDS AREN'T ON THE COMPUTER!1!!1 rants on here. which isn't to say there shouldn't be - they'd be awesome.
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:41:00 -
[39]
Because I have a mining character. The value of ores is directly effected by ISk farming and Macro mining. As a result the time spent vs isk earned for Mining as a player of the game is much much lower than it actually should be.
The resultant effect is that the method by which isk farmers and macro mining impact the playing experience of legitimate gamers. Try mining and you'll see....
Whilst Timecards allow players to purchase isk and create inflation, the effect is diminished and controllable, so the impact on those who mine (the lifeblood of eve) is improved, rather than diminished.
So whilst selling timecards is a pain to players, its less of a irritation and hinderence than farming for cash.
Incidently its not the farmers that I blame, but those who buy isk. If you know a Isk Purchaser from outside timecards petition them.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:36:01
Quote:
There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money.
edit: nobody accused me of nuffink. i just can't read.
I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game.
i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
Stop thinking on yourself and pay attention. you will see about 170 thousand other people.. alot of them areminers. And these are affected directly, they have no chance of competing against macroers. Macro affect the gameplay of these people... and very badly.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Slithysss
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:42:00 -
[41]
I hate macro`s because:
- They outmine me, by just being there 23/7 which I can`t do because I need sleep, seems kinda unfair to "normal" miners no ?
- They influence the market by mining inhuman amounts.
- And most of all, some guy had 3 hulk accounts WRECKING the ******* belts of my fav system !!! and I`m pretty sure he`s no the only one doing it...
[ Will strip for ore :D ] |
Lynae
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17
but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds.
If they use no macros, they are not cheating. If they are not cheating, there is no reason to be upset.
It is legitimate to "swarm" an area. It is great to defend it and to keep all the profits for yourself or your alliance. This shows teamplay and dedication. As long as those people play the game correctly.
Originally by: ry ry
are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
No. There is nothing wrong with "carebears". They play the game just how they like it.
And they are no threat to EVE and the economy, not as macroers are. Even if you play EVE each day for 16h straight, you will never gain the same (infused) profit as a player who cheats EVE for 24h/7d using macros.
___
Originally by: Dark Shikari
They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17
Quote:
I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games.
Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough?
While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now.
Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation.
but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds.
are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
No because they are legitimate gamers. For them mining is a means to an end in game, be it construction, research or just funding. It annoys me, and I have recourse (be it wardec or piracy) to affect that.
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LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:45:00 -
[44]
Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:44:33
Originally by: LUH 3471
chinese macro ******
did you just type six asterisks? :D
also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned?
i dont care about nationality or color or where from. no need to insult my intelligence or do you have to do anything in any way with the chinese running around hauler missions nonstop in the area i described above? wouldnt surprise me
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Stop thinking on yourself and pay attention.
You do realise i play eve for my own entertainment, right?
anyhoo - why can't you compete with the macro miners? i tried mining once, found it more profitable than ratting but so ******* tedious i had to stop.
or do you mean it's cut into your profit margin?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: LUH 3471
Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:43:31
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21
Originally by: LUH 3471
chinese macro ******
did you just type six asterisks? :D
also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned?
i dont care about nationality or color or where from. no need to insult my intelligence or do you have to do anything in any way with the chinese running around hauler missions nonstop in the area i described above?
i'm not insulting your intelligence.
you emulated the profanity filter, which amused me, and then characterised macro miners as 'chinese' which is, as i said, a bit stereotypical.
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LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:51:00 -
[47]
Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:52:28
nt
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Drasked
North Face Force
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:53:00 -
[48]
People dont like macro miners because they are cheating, they are using a 3rd party program to gain an advantage over others and its prohibited by ccp, even tho they dont directly effect me i still dislike them because they are doing something that is not allowed, something that if it would be allowed a lot of people would take advantage of.
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sakana
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.25 11:56:00 -
[49]
actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think. and people hate them as it creates an imbalance in the game, due to ISK selling, as well as going against the EULA. need more reasons?
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Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Malibu Stacey
Gallente
Playboy Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: 000Hunter000
Sadly ccp has their own cheat to 'win eve'
So ur rich in RL? kewl, go buy a few dozen gtc's, sell them for iskies.. presto u 'won eve'.
to be entirely fair, i did consider doing just that a few weeks ago, but then i realized that wouldn't make me much better then the peeps who buy isk for rl money, only the rl money goes to ccp instead of some cyber maffia type.
Sadly for you, no you didn't "win eve" buy having a large wallet (for the perfect example see the widely documented BoB vs ASCN conflict, look through past issues of EvE Tribune).
Selling GTC's for ISK is legitimate within the terms of the EULA (you know those rules things you agree to abide by when you install & run the client).
Buying GTC's from whatever source for real money (to then sell on for ISK) means that CCP get a large amount of that real money which is hopefully used to pay the developers salaries, pay for the running of the cluster, stock the vending machines in CCP headquarters with Quafe, basically keep EvE running & help improve it.
Also the ISK you get in return was earned by a player doing whatever they do to earn that ISK (ratting, mining, missions, whatever) & that person had to pay for their account over x months to earn that ISK which means more money going to CCP for the above things.
Buying ISK from sellers circumvents CCP entirely which is a very bad thingÖ. Sure someone pays for the macro accounts every month but they are generating ISK 23/7. Most macro miner operations I've seen are 4 or 5 mining barges in 1 system with 1 barge per belt jetcan mining while a hauler visits each one in a round robin system tractoring & emptying the cans & then docking to empty the hold of ore. The other operation I've seen is 4 or 5 Mackinaws in an Ice belt again serviced by a hauler with tractor beams.
Even with having to pay for 5 or 6 accounts it must be very profitable for the operators to run since they are all over empire. Imagine the effect just a couple of these operations in each region are having on the prices of low end minerals & ice products.
Recently I've seen an increase in single character macro operations which I assume is someone loading up the bot program (which they paid real money for) & setting it to mine a full hold & then dock, empty hold & repeat while they are at work/school/sleep/whatever so they can basically cheat.
---
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! |
ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:04:00 -
[51]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:10:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Andrue on 25/04/2007 12:09:31
Originally by: sakana
actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think.
It is certainly possible to write 'intelligent' macros. At work we use a macro program to automate server and network maintennance and it's quite capable of reading the screen and making its own decisions. It can be quite eerie sometimes when you are interacting with it.
I would, though, that CCP have taken steps to make it difficult for such programs to determine client state. I can think of several ideas off the top of my head that would be a pain to work around.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:15:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: sakana
actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think.
It is. No question about it. At work we use a macro program to automate server and network maintennance and it's quite capable of reading the screen and making its own decisions. It can be quite eerie sometimes when you are interacting with it.
it also makes them more easy to detect, i understand.
chatting to a blizz employee (boo! hiss!) when i played wow he told me that bots were much easier to spot than macros due to their monotonous predictability, even with variable timers wrote in.
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:18:00 -
[54]
Originally by: ry ry
anyhoo - why can't you compete with the macro miners? i tried mining once, found it more profitable than ratting but so ******* tedious i had to stop.
Think this is more the entire point of the thread, mining is so boring and dull and predictable it draws macroers to it as it is so easy to macro compared to other in game scenarios though there are macro's that rat and do missions.
Make mining a little more unpredictable and you stunt the macroers ability to work, but mmo's will always draw macroers for the more menial and boring tasks within a game its something that can never really be defeated, and unless you want an ever increasing costly battle with macroers, its easier to go with the flow and add low level scripting functionality to the client, this levels the playing field giving every player the ability to do the same thing, this nukes the advantage macroers have, yes there may be some side effects such as massive inflation due to this, but as everyone in the game world now has access to these methods these issues can be addressed cleanly without worrying about impact on the rest of the player base who doesn't have the tools (because everyone has the tools).
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today!
http://savestargatesg1.com/
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Ebusitanus
Caldari
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:21:00 -
[55]
It irritates me that when I log in to mine I have to babysit my operation through each mining cycle. I can live with that if those are the rules and how the game was designed. It irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand?
Sure, I could say to hell with the game or mining, or even better, get me a macro program myself and join the belt looting.
What sort of message goes through the n00bs (like myself) when you see this going on day in day out in front of you?
------------------------------------------------
"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:24:00 -
[56]
not sure about including a macro engine in Eve. i don't think it'd be a good thing.
Human error plays a big part of the game - in some fights the only reason you win is because the other guy ****** up. add another level of automation and that user-error factor will disappear and pvp will simply become a case of who clicks first.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:25:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
OK, picture the situation:
Person A is an honest player. He wakes up, goes to work, and comes home again. He logs onto EVE. He gets into his ratting ship / mining ship / trading ship (etc), and gets about his business. He plays for about 2 hours. In order to maximise his profits in these 2 hours, he is encouraged to attempt more difficult tasks, to venture into higher risk areas for greater rewards, and to gain associations with networks of friends for their mutual benefits. When he becomes ultra-rich, it is through good fair playing, and we can all respect him for it.
Person B is a macro-user. He wakes up, logs into EVE, and sets his macro program running. It starts mining in a safe area, doing monotonous work that no player would keep up without branching into higher risk / higher difficulty jobs. He goes to work. He comes home. He goes out for a kick-around. He goes out with his friends. He goes to bed. The next morning when he logs onto EVE again (having been booted by the nights DT), he finds he is now very wealthy. He repeats. By the end of the week he is a billionaire, and he has barely looked at EVE twice. He now has significant rewards over "honest players", despite not having achieved anything.
Person C is a hacker. He wakes up, logs into EVE, and accesses his hacked stuffs. He changes the value of "isk in wallet" to "10,000,000,000". He is a billionaire, and has barely looked at EVE. He now has significant rewards over "honest players", despite not having achieved anything.
Now I ask you- aside from the fact that it took Person B a few weeks to achieve what Person C did in 10 minutes, in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
--------
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ebusitanus
[...Ebusitanus is irritated...] It [also] irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand?
whenever i need cash i sit and run missions or rat whilst either watching TV or playing Nintendo DS. It hardly requires much attention, and i'd imagine mining even less so.
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Malibu Stacey
Gallente
Playboy Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:28:00 -
[59]
Originally by: ry ry
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
I think the dislike stems from the fact that they're turing our game into their job.
There are very easy ways to differentiate between a macro miner & "a super dedicated miner". I won't go into details here but you can check out the ingame chat channel macrointel & ask there.
FYI. I don't mine nor have any inclination to however there are people who like to do nothing but & have their efforts ingame devalued by the clients running macro's 23/7. See some of the responses from the miners on this thread. Ore is to an extent a finite resource (albeit replenished on a regular basis), if one person can run an operation of 4 of 5 barges stripping belts 23 hours a day & you can run one barge for 1/4 of that time how are you supposed to compete?
---
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! |
Lynae
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:29:00 -
[60]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
Yes.
Originally by: ry ry
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner?
Easy. You get to know the people in your region. You talk to them. Some macro "swarms" are widely known (look at Starbases & Outposts forum, there is a list somewhere). Most of them are in a NPC-Corp, but basically it goes down to intuition.
Sometimes you can steal their ore or bump them away and when they do not respond you can be fairly sure. One big macroing operation (6 Barges, 2 Itty V) reacted in the same way, everytime you switched cans. Ore theft detected -> Can renamed to some obscure signs, Itty V warps in, steals "my ore", gets shot down. I never got a response to my convo or reactions in local.
But, in a way you are right. There is no 100% method to detect macro users. You can only collect evidence and make a call based on your judgement and intuition. Thats why it is even harder for CCP.
Originally by: ry ry
and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
They mine more and sell cheaper, thus ruining the market. It works for them, because they are online 23h/7d and mining. Someone who must work and sleep cannot compete with them.
It works like RL. When the big supermarket over there has opening hours from 7 AM to 2 AM, the small store next door (open from 7 AM to 7 PM) cannot keep up. The difference is, there are still workers in both stores, even more shifts in the big supermarket, so it is fair. Imagine a macro miner as a 24h store, just with 1 robot as the only personnel. Does not sleep, needs no food, water or air. Always there for your customers. How should someone compete with that?
Originally by: ry ry
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
The only problem is that macroing is against the TOS/EULA and therefore cheating. I have nothing against ISK farmers who actively play the game for lets say 16h.
___
Originally by: Dark Shikari
They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
|
ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:34:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Patch86
OK, picture the situation:
ok!
Quote:
Person A is an honest player.
like us!
Quote:
Person B is a macro-user.
boo! hiss!
Quote:
Person C is a hacker.
like Neo!
Quote:
Now I ask you- aside from the fact that it took Person B a few weeks to achieve what Person C did in 10 minutes, in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
not in the slightest, i'm not disputing that it's cheating. But what does he then do with his ill-gotten gains? sell it on the internet probably, so he's gained nothing in-game for it and quickly moves on to a different account.
The isk seller then flogs the cash to some chump willing to risk his account for isk, and too lazy to buy GTCs. The isk seller has no in-game presence beyond accounts for shuffling cash.
The chump who bought the isk now has loads of money, aside from the fact that it took him a few hours to achieve what could have been achived in a few days if he'd bought and sold bought GTCs.
in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
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Grash Freedom
Gallente
MAZA Solutions
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:37:00 -
[62]
Macros are bad
You can make macros for all activities in eve, mining/production/rat hunting/ even for pvp
so whats the point of you playing a game? its not you if the pc does all the work
Macros are used by isk sellers, not by players
isk sellers make their living and feed their cubs(its a game, not an industry)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:40:00 -
[63]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 25/04/2007 12:37:49
In my opinion, the economy and industry of EVE is also a vital part of it. Especially when you start talking about alliance/0.0 warfare.
I think it's good that you can build a strong industrial powerbase, and use that to make a difference to your pilot numbers/skills. E.g. acquire good T2 production, have your ships better fitted/supplied.
And similarly, if I know someone has this capability, I can attack it. Raid their systems, camp their complexes, mine their ore, blockade their supply lines. That's all good IMO.
What's bad ,is if in situation B, the group in question is able to support operations via 'out of game' methods. If I can go and 'just buy' a mothership or titan, without the associated logistics and supply, then I've made a strategic impact on the game, with my credit card. That to me, is all wrong.
The secondary effect of macros being inflation and skewed prices (if you buy your isks, you can afford to spend stupid amounts on fittings) is also relevant, because it means when I want a new falcon, I have to spend more to get it. That's also annoying.
Macros and farming are symptoms of the disease that is isk sales. I have no objection to intensive mining ops or whatever, I do have an objection to someone cheating (farming isn't, macros are), when such cheating is having an active impact on my game experience.
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mr bighelmet
EnTech
Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.04.25 12:44:00 -
[64]
The fact that i have to fight over belt with player who strip mine it using macro make my eve expriance less fun.
You know it and everyone else in this post know it, the fact that you keep arguing aginst this make me wander if you really want an answer to your question.
If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 12:45:00 -
[65]
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:46:48
Originally by: Lynae
It works like RL. When the big supermarket over there has opening hours from 7 AM to 2 AM, the small store next door (open from 7 AM to 7 PM) cannot keep up. The difference is, there are still workers in both stores, even more shifts in the big supermarket, so it is fair. Imagine a macro miner as a 24h store, just with 1 robot as the only personnel. Does not sleep, needs no food, water or air. Always there for your customers. How should someone compete with that?
i wonder how much is an actual loss, and how much is simply a reduced profit margin.
what about new players trying to compete with large mining alliances, or noob-corp dwelling miner alts? surely they will struggle to match the prices offered by an alliance using a capship fleet to mine, unless the capship miners are making no effort to compete on price and are - dare i say it - selling minerals at whatever inflated price the market will withstand, rather than competing with their fellow miners. Oligopoly be damned, that's price fixing isn't it?
and yes! i realise that every counterpoint i've raised has been in the form of a question, but i'm rather objective in all this (being neither a miner, nor an isk dealer)which is why i find it so fascinating.
EDIT: and we're talking about freelance empire miners here, right? surely alliance miners and 0.0 miners are pumping their proceeds back into corp rather than selling them on the open market, and are able to protect their mining grounds.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:13:00 -
[66]
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
-AS |
Aritcio
Amarr
Dark Skyes
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:20:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Aritcio on 25/04/2007 13:17:45
Macro are bad because when we like to mine. There northing there because they go from one system to another 23 hours day getting the best ore they can get in empire. So i left with Veld and scord. I like it have kernite now and then some day.
Also i seen loads of macro mission in Taru all simlair names 5 ravens and a APOC.
SO because they mine 23 hours of the day its making a real miner hard to earn isk and also making a effect on market.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:36:00 -
[68]
Because CCP allows itself to profit off the sale of ISK via Game Time Codes I personally do not have a problem with macro users. Then again, I am in 0.0 space and spend absolutely no time in empire so they don't affect me in anyway.
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.25 13:55:00 -
[69]
Originally by: ry ry
a macro is just a series of instructions, not some kind of omnipotent AI.
Go to eBay, search for eve and read some of the descriptions for the stuff on sale (no not character sales). I would say some of that stuff is VERY sophisticated if it indeed do what it say it does.
Good luck to CCP to find efficient counter measurements for those applications, I hope you somehow manage to catch them. 
We're sorry, something happened.
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Grunanca
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 17:49:00 -
[70]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17
Quote:
I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games.
Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough?
While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now.
Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation.
but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds.
are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
No, these play the game and have every right to grind 24/7 if thats how they would like to live their life. However like anyone else they are not allowed to use any macro at all.
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Grunanca
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 17:56:00 -
[71]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:14:35
so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating?
how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me.
edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for these macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees.
The difference between a macroer and a dedicated miner is that the miner gotta be there to empty his hold, while the macro is a computer program doing it.
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Grunanca
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 17:59:00 -
[72]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Ebusitanus
[...Ebusitanus is irritated...] It [also] irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand?
whenever i need cash i sit and run missions or rat whilst either watching TV or playing Nintendo DS. It hardly requires much attention, and i'd imagine mining even less so.
You really need to listen to what people are saying to you... Macro miners are a PROGRAM WHICH MEANS NOT A PLAYER! If you play the game while watching television, who is pressing the buttons? YOU! If a program does it while the macro runner watches TV, he will be F****** his girlfriend or something like it which makes him unable to press any buttons at all..
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Coran Ordus
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.04.25 18:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: Grunanca
Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship.
Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
Wrong, GTCs:
Are a transfer of isk, not a creation
Allow more people to play the game (a good thing)
Directly controllable and monitorable by CCP in any case, and as such can be easily checked should they start causing problems
Macrominers ruin economies. In the only game out there with a non-lobotomized economy, this ****es a lot of people off. Simple as that.
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PuncherDavis
|
Posted - 2007.04.25 19:02:00 -
[74]
Umm this thing aint been locked or transfered to the main macro mining thread...which is that way>>>>>>>>
kind of surprised
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ry ry
StateCorp
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:57:00 -
[75]
Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:57:24
Originally by: Grunanca
You really need to listen to what people are saying to you... Macro miners are a PROGRAM WHICH MEANS NOT A PLAYER! If you play the game while watching television, who is pressing the buttons? YOU! If a program does it while the macro runner watches TV, he will be F****** his girlfriend or something like it which makes him unable to press any buttons at all..
i understand what a macro is, thx.
what i don't see why somebody automating tedious tasks fills you with CAPSLOCK RAGE. What if i phone the GF from work and get her to log in and change my skills for me - is that cheating? is that account sharing? would you feel the need to hurl abuse at my gf for being a filthy macro-er?
I understand why CCP want macros out the game, and i understand why players wouldn't use them, but for a Joe Average like you why are they such an irritation?
And for the love of god, don't just reply "BECASUE THEY ARE CHEATINGWITH A PROGRAM!!! THEY NOT EVEN DOING THE BUTTON PUSH!!" i was looking for the reasoning behind your blind hatred, not a description of what constitutes a macro.
Do they cheapen your own endeavours? Does the ease with which they gain money make you jealous? perhaps you just don't like the idea of making IRL profits from a computer game? are you concerned that they're crippling CCP financially?
there must be something more than simply them being able to watch TV as they mine?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.26 11:58:00 -
[76]
Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:54:33
Originally by: PuncherDavis
Umm this thing aint been locked or transfered to the main macro mining thread...which is that way>>>>>>>>
kind of surprised
because it's not a generic OMG BAN MACROES CCP thread, and until you posted that pretty much every comment so far had been constructive in some way.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:25:00 -
[77]
ISK sellers, I hate.
Farmers, are annoying (but legal).
Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:32:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
*hands this man a beer*
Best explaination so far.
Ship lovers click here |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:33:00 -
[79]
Originally by: ry ry
What if i phone the GF from work and get her to log in and change my skills for me - is that cheating?
Actually yes, technically, it is 
But anyhow, you know my opinion from my first post. Using a program to amass wealth while you're not around is no different when its a "mining macro" than it is when its a "OMGH4XB0T". I'm sure it doesn't need explaining why people would be angry if someone is "winning" by hacking. "Winning" by macroing is exactly the same, and evokes the same reaction.
Case and point, look at the rage that ensued from the events of The Weekend that shall not be named. That was the same as the macro rage, only more acute and directed.
--------
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:36:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 26/04/2007 12:33:19
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
For me it is because someone is sucking up in game resources, to sell for a RL profit, for a game I am paying for - hence they are stealing from me, and you, and ccp, and the noob, and the vet.
*hands this man a beer*
Best explaination so far.
Totally wrong. She asked what your problem was with macro's, not with real life trades.
Macro's <> RL sales.
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Ebusitanus
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:45:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
ISK sellers, I hate.
Farmers, are annoying (but legal).
Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
Since the first time I logged in a month ago on this forum I was wondering why I saw you always actively trying to sabotage any attempt/idea by the playerbase to come to a solution for this pest. Finally I see you writing it clearly. Thanks for that.
------------------------------------------------
"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:48:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 26/04/2007 12:47:52
Originally by: Ebusitanus
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
ISK sellers, I hate.
Farmers, are annoying (but legal).
Macro's, I have absolutely no problem with.
Since the first time I logged in a month ago on this forum I was wondering why I saw you always actively trying to sabotage any attempt/idea by the playerbase to come to a solution for this pest. Finally I see you writing it clearly. Thanks for that.
You're welcome. You only needed to ask  .
I never try to sabotage any idea, but I will not stand by and see something attacked when it's not even the real focus.
Players shout about RL trading and then instantly macro's get thrown into the mix. I'm anti RL trading, but I'm not anti macro. The two are not one and the same.
I have yet to see anyone give a really valid reason as to why they hate macro's, other than the competion over resources. Even then more often then not they are crying about their competition with Farmers, not macroers.
I have played Many MMO's over many years and I have never even once had a macro cause me any problems in a game. Farmers and other players cause plenty, but never any macro.
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Ebusitanus
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.26 12:50:00 -
[83]
So...your solution should be for everyone to get a macro program then?
Are macros allowed in game or not?
------------------------------------------------
"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Chequrself
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.26 13:00:00 -
[84]
H8 H8 Macro isk farmers
<3<3 Macro isk miners
Why the double standard simple farmers rob me, miners help me.
"ZOMFG How can this be?" You ask.
Simple I am not a miner ergo I like mineral prices cheap. I am a 0.0 ratter when I need to, but bah were are the faction/officer spawn I always hear about. GAHHH macro ratter been and gone with them.
In all fairness to the macroers tho, without them you would not be buying isk of ebay you would all be buying GTCs and selling them in game for isk .... OH now I see why CCP hates them so.
Just remember, while there are people to be exploited, there will be people to exploit them. Who's Who in this scenario weelllll, I will leave that to you.
-------------------------------------------------
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Agent Li
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:41:00 -
[85]
Originally by: ry ry
Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much?
there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
Because they skew the game mechanics.
If you're going to allow people to strip mine the belts, then make them do it without a macro. Make them sit there through all of the boring mining operations.
I even think that autopilot should be nerfed, just so people can't go afk.
The game was meant for people who play, not for people who use it to sell isk.
------------------
"Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all." |
Asmosis
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
There you go again...
Quote:
If you buy isk from farmers (ie: macroers)
SO WRONG. Macroing does NOT = Farmers or ISK sellers. Attempting to use any ISK selling annalogy when refering to macroers just shows how little your arguemnts will hold water when scruitinized.
Macroing, Farming and ISK selling are ALL totally seperate issues.
Thats like saying pirating has nothing to do with PvP.... Yarrr rrright
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.04.26 15:59:00 -
[87]
I just don't understand why people raise their voices and shout "macros are bad because they sell ISK!". We all know you can buy a few GTCs and sell them. Totally legal. So please get a new argument. |
Lithalnas
Amarr
Hadean Drive Yards
Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:03:00 -
[88]
The reason being is that when mission farmers, who effectively print isk, take that isk and sell it tey are effectively adding it to the economy. Let us say for the moment that the farmer has 3 chars, he runs missions all day making 500m isk(23/7). That means that when he sells that 1b isk to a character for RL $ he is injecting the difference. Now say the character who bought it makes 20-50m a day. That means 450m has just been added to the economy. Figure the farmer makes a sale a day that means 450m per day is added to the economy.
Now multiply that x10 macro companies that 4.5b isk per day being injected into the economy.
A word on macro miners, no they do not print isk, however they do strip high sec of all their belts, and i mean all of them. This week we saw the belts not respawn when they were supposed to, HDY could not find an asteroid within 3 jumps of HQ.
Macros also make it very hard to make money mining in high sec, 5 covetors will mine a whole lot more than a hulk and his alt, saying this, the amount of ore they bring into the system forces the prices of minerals to fall. This is both a good and bad thing, low prices mean cheaper battleships, however low prices also mean low profits for all the industrial characters out there, meaning the miners get paid a pittance and the manufacturers have to make due with thinner margins.
In closing go out there and shoot up some macros, the Chinese hate mail can be the best you will ever read.
-------------
Hadean Drive Yards
The EvE inflation, 80 Macro miners, 1.5b isk/day |
Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Asmosis
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
There you go again...
Quote:
If you buy isk from farmers (ie: macroers)
SO WRONG. Macroing does NOT = Farmers or ISK sellers. Attempting to use any ISK selling annalogy when refering to macroers just shows how little your arguemnts will hold water when scruitinized.
Macroing, Farming and ISK selling are ALL totally seperate issues.
Thats like saying pirating has nothing to do with PvP.... Yarrr rrright
No, Pirating is an action you perform. Macro's are a tool which can be used for good or bad. People here are complaining about ISK sellers which again is totally independant of macro's, Mission running, belt stripping or any other method of ISK collection you can think of. The ISK gathering isn't the problem or what should be the focus. The SELLING is. It's not the collection (however they do it) that causes the problems, it's the selling for RL cash that is.
If no one purchased that ISK then no one would be selling it. If no one was selling it then you'd not have belts stripped or complexes camped by teams of farmers 23/7.
You see it's not how the ISK is gained, it's whats done with it after that's the problem. It is nothing to do with macroing, farming, pirating or picking your nose.
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Lowanaera
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.04.26 16:43:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
No, Pirating is an action you perform. Macro's are a tool which can be used for good or bad. People here are complaining about ISK sellers which again is totally independant of macro's, Mission running, belt stripping or any other method of ISK collection you can think of. The ISK gathering isn't the problem or what should be the focus. The SELLING is. It's not the collection (however they do it) that causes the problems, it's the selling for RL cash that is.
If no one purchased that ISK then no one would be selling it. If no one was selling it then you'd not have belts stripped or complexes camped by teams of farmers 23/7.
You see it's not how the ISK is gained, it's whats done with it after that's the problem. It is nothing to do with macroing, farming, pirating or picking your nose.
No, how it is gained is exactly what matters. Macro miners do not hurt anyone except other miners in the area by creating market competition, their impact on inflation is zero because mining does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it. Selling ISK, whether through GTCs or illegitimate sites, does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it. Camping complexes and selling deadspace modules does not create ISK, it merely redistributes it.
ISK comes into the economy and worsens inflation primarily through killing rats, insurance and other things create ISK as well but bounties and mission rewards are the biggest cause. The people sitting in Motsu all day in Gistii CNRs are the ones responsible for inflation, not macro miners. Are they annoying because they lack respect for other players and "cheapen" the experience for people who work for their ISK? Yes, but they are not to blame for the economy, and all the people crying "inflation" need to gain a basic understanding of how a MMO economy works first.
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Del Narveux
Obsidian Angels Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.26 17:30:00 -
[91]
I hate macros for the following reasons:
1. They eat ore in highsec systems that should be reserved for newer players, who dont have the benefit of eleventy billion isk and .0 access, all that jazz.
2. They fuel isk selling, a practice that I totally despise as it embodies everything thats wrong with MMOGs and where the game culture is headed. Seriously, isnt the idea that people spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars for virtual items that only exist in your imagination produced by third-world sweatshops whose labor laws essentially amount to slavery not one of the most ****** up things youve encountered?
3. Corollary to #1, they drive down mineral prices which is good for users, but screws over legit miners who try to play by the rules. Plus its going to play havoc if CCP goes through with removing NPC bounties, as suddenly everyones cash flow is at the mercy of said sweatshop workers running 10 covetors each.
_________________
[SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler
Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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MasterEnt
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Posted - 2007.04.26 17:45:00 -
[92]
Becuase they are not playing.
They let a script do all the work... strip mine without any actual work..
then there are no more roids left for people like you and me who are not AFK.
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Ebusitanus
Mythical Warriors and Workers
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Posted - 2007.04.26 18:28:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Ebusitanus on 26/04/2007 18:25:48
Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot
....macro propaganda....
So...your solution should be for everyone to get a macro program then?
Are macros allowed in game or not?
------------------------------------------------
"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"
Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage. |
Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.26 18:33:00 -
[94]
Originally by: MasterEnt
Becuase they are not playing.
They let a script do all the work... strip mine without any actual work..
then there are no more roids left for people like you and me who are not AFK.
What he said ^^^^^
I try to do some mining and chill out and can't find a single roid within 3 systems of me. The MM's have stripped every belt clean within a few hours of the respawn. By the time I get home from work, there's not even a pebble left.
--
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Royaldo
KVA Noble Inc.
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.26 18:57:00 -
[95]
there more a mission is done the less it is worth?
is this true? if it is, someone might want to have a look at situation in mamet.
There around 50 macro's there every day doing courier missions.
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Amphetaminer
Grumpy Old Men
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Posted - 2007.04.27 22:09:00 -
[96]
Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:39:50
Originally by: Amphetaminer
mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!)
not having a full-time job, or owning a better computer are also an unfair advantage.
not many OMFG STUDENTS CAN PLAY ALL AFTERNOON AND I CAN ONLY PLAY AT EVENINGS AND WEEKENDS WHEN THE KIDS AREN'T ON THE COMPUTER!1!!1 rants on here. which isn't to say there shouldn't be - they'd be awesome.
how is that an unfair advantage its your own choice to go to work and its there choice to play all day.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.30 11:27:00 -
[97]
it's not my choice to go to work - it's just that i don't like wearing clothes made out of old sacks, eating out of bins and living in a cardboard box.
having time to play all day - for whatever reason - is an advantage over those who only get a few hours in the evening.
it's not really open for discussion; it's just common sense.
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Voodoo Mistross
KickAssCrew
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:01:00 -
[98]
4 pages on the reasons Macros are bad.....the same few reasons repeated over and over, reminds me of a child: "but why?"..."but why?"...and on and on, so as I occassionaly break down and say to my little girl
"BECAUSE I SAID SO!"
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.04.30 12:08:00 -
[99]
Edited by: ry ry on 30/04/2007 12:12:28
but why?
besides, i was interested in people's opinions, and wanted them to elaborate a little, rather than just cack like BECAUSE I SAID SO. i don't like peas but not being able to actually explain why i don't like them renders my opinion on peas in general slightly invalid.
In the case of peas this is all cool, nobody gives a toss about peas, but certain individuals get all frothy about macros.
Macros aren't exactly 'cheating' per se - many mmos have their own macro engines so you can automate repetitive tasks, so this eve-specific MACRO EVIL! frothieness is all a bit mystifying. genuinely wondered why.
EDIT: also, it appears that most people don't even grasp the concept properly - a macro isn't a fully fledged mining bot, in the same way a snowflake isn't an avalanche.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.04.30 16:04:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Voodoo Mistross
4 pages on the reasons Macros are bad.....the same few reasons repeated over and over, reminds me of a child: "but why?"..."but why?"...and on and on, so as I occassionaly break down and say to my little girl
"BECAUSE I SAID SO!"
you are a bad parent.
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.04.30 16:59:00 -
[101]
Originally by: ry ry
EDIT: also, it appears that most people don't even grasp the concept properly - a macro isn't a fully fledged mining bot, in the same way a snowflake isn't an avalanche.
When we speak of macro miners, we are talking about fully automated systems and not a person pressing a key to automate a few mouse clicks occasionally rather than actually do them. A macro miner can start the macro running and walk away from the keyboard, go to work, go to bed and leave it mining every roid in the system. The barge and hauler are fully automated and will strip an entire system clean and move on to the next system ad infinitum if left to do so. Since this is not actually playing the game in person 23/7, it enters into the realm of cheating since it would be impossible for one player to operate 4 or more accounts 23/7. It's cheating because the systems and economy were designed around players who are online an average number of hours a day due to those dumb requirements called sleep/work/life.
It's also cheating because those who actually want to play the game as it was meant to be played are prevented from doing so because the asteroids are gone, the complexes have been completed and emptied because the cheaters want to sell the isk on web sites to make RL cash. This is not only cheating from a game point of view but also defrauding CCP as the rights to the ingame money and how it is transferred and used etc belongs to them.
An analogy would be that you own a flashy car that's been pimped to the hilt and I sell tickets for people to come and see it but don't give you any of the money. Wouldn't you be a bit annoyed that I am making money using your property but not even offering you any royalties?
Maybe a single snowflake isn't an avalanche but enough of them could wipe out an entire village. In the same way, enough macro miners could destroy Eve both from a player and an economic (IG and RL) standpoint.
--
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Neue Ziel
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Posted - 2007.05.11 04:36:00 -
[102]
"Why do you hate macro miner types so much?"
It's been said on this page but I'll say it again. They ruin the game for the honest miner. There are no rocks left at all for anybody because a less then half day after you find an asteroid field some macro-miner's fleet has stripped it bare. So you have to pick up your stuff and move farther and farther away to the edge of space looking for an asteroid field; and then you finally find one only to have the *same* damn thing happen again. Mining becomes less and less profitable because you have to haul ore farther and farther to find markets for it. All the time the macro miners are reaping grotesque profits and dropping the price of minerals through the floor; which further hurts my profits.
I had many friends who played this game purely for the 'space prospector' aspect. They're the ones that got hurt the most. In my Corp there is now only ONE serious miner left. We all used to mine to one degree or another but now; we're done. Being a miner isn't profitable any more. It used to be THE way to make money; now it's a exercise in futility. It's taken away some of variety the game used to have and handed it to a group of b******s. These people and their legion of alts hurt all of us as they limit the scope of the game CCP created. Only they can compete in the marketplace and only they reap the rewards of mining. The rest of us are cheated out of that experience.
They steal a portion of that fifteen dollars I pay every month so I can play a game with this kind of scope instead of a ******** finger twitcher like most of the other mmorpg's have degenerated into. If somebody stole 3 dollars out of your wallet every month that'd tick you off wouldn't it? That's what macro miners do to all of us honest miners; they make it impossible to play the part of the game we have hundreds of hour invested in. Invested in skill training and specialization and equipment that no longer means a thing because some twit and his fleet of 22 alts can do anything my entire corp can do on the one night a week we have to mount a large mining gang; and they can do it 23/7.
There's no effective way for a PC to counter the pervasive influence of macro-miners. Hunting them down is inefficient at best; and if CCP could automatically identify and flag them to be shot I think every miner in EVE wouldn't be able to stop praising them enough; unfortuantely as I understand it this is at the moment technically infeasible. So as it stands their profit margins out weigh any losses we can realistically inflict on them and the rate at which they take in ISK pretty much ensures that we're always on the loosing side of the equation. That's cheating. That's the definition of cheating; an unfair advantage that cannot be countered no matter how skillful a a player might be.
I sold all my mining gear and now all I do are missions; it's my loss and that of every honest mining PC in the game.
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Marden Grace
Caldari
Sentinels Of Justice Tactical Command
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Posted - 2007.05.11 05:28:00 -
[103]
They took our jurbs! (South Park reference)
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