Edit: Crosi just because I have a rudimentary understanding of null sec and therefore can see how fw can offer something other than null sec lite, that does not mean I want fw to be the same as null sec. Its the opposite.

Most of the changes you support makes fw similar to null. You want a more binary system where people fight over only a few systems. Find out who can get the most firepower in a system or 2 and then the rest is mop up. That is null sec lite.

And in faction war the main isk gains happen after you gain sov and therefore gain tiers. What you describe where people actually would make isk by winning sov was the cash out system. Once the occupancy was established you were paid immediately with items from the lp store. (if you didn't help with the push you won't have any lp to cash out) Now after you gain the sov people join the winning side so they get more lp from their pve. Just like you describe happens in null sec.

One of the things that I want changed with FW is the way you deplex. Deplexing can be one of the most boring, uninteresting and disengaging things in EVE. You just sit there, for 10-39 minutes, babysitting an NPC...

The intel tool would tell you where people are running plexes.

I can't agree more.

My proposal doesn't have deplexing at all. The only way to prevent an offensive plexing attempt is to actively engage with the plexer/plexers. If nobody is attacking nobody has to defend it, so no more time wasted deplexing. This also means the end of AFK plexing, or plexing with alts with unfitted frigates or with stabs. It has no sense mechanically or economical gain.

In offensive plexing the incentive preventing them to run freely is the money (or better: LPs) the ministrutures cost. You can't avoid for them to run, but you can punish them (at least a bit) for doing so, That prevent tactics like rabbit plexing (unless you want to risk to lose more money/LPs that you can earn).

Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.

If the opposition offensive plexes a system my militia is defending by 10%... how do I get that back to where it was? Or can the defenders in a system only possibly hold the level where it is and never reverse it (until it flips)?

Seems like that wouldn't quite work.

Um, you cant just swap sides in an argument. You were the one calling similarities between null and FW. I was the one saying there were fundemental design differences which prevent FW from adopting a purely PvP mechanic..

Most of the changes you support makes fw similar to null. You want a more binary system where people fight over only a few systems. Find out who can get the most firepower in a system or 2 and then the rest is mop up. That is null sec lite.

Your proposed free intel in no way extends peoples interests into previously uninteresting systems. It offers no incentive for people to go chase farmers, and most pvpers are already aware where farmers are anyway.

Unlike my suggestion, which does incentivise PvPers to attack farmers by removing WCS from plexes and as such rebalance the farmer/pvper equation to make it more likely that a pvper can disrupt a farmers efficiency.

So some peripheral guy with a solo perspective and some bad ideas that in no obvious way solve the issues he sees, is questioning the understanding of one of the most active participants in FW occupancy since its very first iteration long before there was any ISK to be made, and pretty much every stage since?

Classic cerain.

Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.

Hamish
You say other players have this intel but they obviously donGÇÖt. Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me?

You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information.

First requeriment of any type of army: reconnaissance. If your militia don't have that, then you guys have a more serious problem that some plexers.



No, you don't. You let other people play this game too. It's called factional (factions=groups) warfare for a reason.

Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.

There's not enough pvp in FW low sec - especially compared to other areas of the game?

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."

It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.

Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.

And with station lockouts combined with the terrible sov system we have (both of which you like) groups tend to lump together so that the dplexing task can be spread out. As boozbaz and many many others have said in the past, having to dplex after the rabbits come is a big negative. This leads to large areas of empty space and just a few systems fought over. It would be better if ccp made it easier to actually fight over larger areas. That is what beter intel tools would do.

We don't need to incentivize it any more than it is already. People already do it. It will just make it more efficient. IGÇÖm not against disallowing wcs in plexes but I doubt it will really change much. They will still just wap off which they do already.

IGÇÖm all for believing him except he is contradicting himself.
He is now saying any tool that tells us where plexes are being captured will just "tell everybody where people who won't engage are located." This logically implies that everyone in plexes are "people who won't engage." Yet earlier he was pointing at his corps high vp and kills to prove those who capture plexes also pvp.

He should at least be honest and admit some of the people in plexes will pvp. And this tool will help them get more pvp faster.

It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.

Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.

Nope. It's a sandbox game. While you go on endlessley about Tier levels and keeping score, the rest of us choose to understand the fundamental truth of this sandbox game: Each of us chooses our own victory conditions.

That old lady in the 13th Warrior go it right: "Wars are won in the will."

You have not even established the reasoning as to why free intel will result in pvpers suddenly being interested in chasing farmers. I
have suggested a far more effective solution to that.

Yet another example in a long line of comments that can be filed under 'Cerain sees someone use an exaggerated argument in order to make a point, then treats it as word-for-word literal, even if taking it literally would be absurd.'

Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.

You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.

Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesnGÇÖt mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes.

Who is everybody else?

The people who will commit to chasing them? (nobody so far)

To answer your question directly, because you seem to think it is an important part of your character assassination attempt to discredit an idea you don't agree with:

I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I choose to live in.
I have chased off "rabbits" in the systems I chose to live whilst I was CalMil with PYRE.
I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I sometimes live in even now whilst I am a neutral.
I would continue to chase off "rabbits" from the system I chose to live in should I return to FW.



Whilst a number of you assume (incorrectly) that "nobody cares about" all the backwater systems, I have and might again choose to care about my corner of the warzone.

Just because as system has low traffic volume and can be quiet does not mean that someone is not interested in fighting for their Militia there. Some people choose a quieter corner so they can have the option of flying around solo, in pairs or threes, whilst avoiding insta gate camps and fleets that they cannot compete with in low numbers. It is usually tied in with good PvE content in the same system to maintain the wallet.

Often different types of PvPers come to these systems looking for the kind of fights they set off on a roam to find.

Whilst I fully expect that casual players and small groups should find it impossible (or at least extremely difficult) to hold sovereignty in a FW system, it should be possible for them to log in for their TZ and find that they can make an attempt to hold the system or go out and get fights.

I've heard countless complaints from good active corp members in an active corp complain about TZ farmers reducing their gameplay to counter farming just to keep the contested level down. They always end up in "Why don't we just take the corp neutral and we wont take any faction standings hits and can shoot both sides".

You seem to have lost the big picture.......

ok so heres how you tell whos in the systems within 2 jumps around Frerstrom --- You fly there stop being lazy and actually play the game noone owes you instant gratification, it happens nowere else in the game..

If CCP didnt want you flying around they wouldnt have made the warzone so big and would have made it one or 2 systems next to each other, or even just one system were you would play capture the flag lol

Also can i have the source for this thing that you keep saying CCP promised? like i said in an earlier post they were vague and said maybe could do with better intel tools, they never said what those tools would be, they never said it would be real time intel and also never said they would actually implement it let alone the fact the dev that may have said something along those lines is probably not even with ccp anymore.

During that period of time do you know how many nutball ideas CCP said they would look at? Even the old lead designer Soundwave used to say he bare faced lied to people when asked questions and didnt have a response he would make **** up..

FW to ccp is the ginger step child they implemented it, and dont have a ******* clue what to do with it which tells in the 1 expansion since 2008, it doesnt create big headlines that hit irl news sites like null sec does that bring people to the game.
This was also blatent in the introduction of citadels they knew the implications it would have on FW and steam rolled on with it anyway with total dis regard for FW and to think otherwise you are ******* stupid

I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.

However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.

I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel.

So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?

You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.

As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.

Is there enough pvp in FW? No not really. Is it more than other areas? Possibly. Jita has the most kills. Does that count? And if you say no jita doesn't count then I will ask why. And the answer will be likely to do with the quality of the type of pvp. And I will agree with you. But I will also point out that just looking at the map of fw space the systems with the most kills are those systems that have a high sec gate. Which means allot of those kills likely has little to do with faction war.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#kills24

Moreover in looking at the map as whole we would see the mean system likely has less than 1 kill per hour.

That is a little misleading, FW tends to cycle through power shifts from one side to the other and the big fights occur mostly when the sides become even during one of those shifts.

You are the one that keeps talking about how people have been shooting farmers for years, and thats before they have free intel. So it seems even by your reckoning that disrupting farmers does not pivot on free intel.

Im just telling you that for whatever is broken in FW, intel isnt really one of them. Free intel does not do what you say it does, and can also be easily achieved in an organic way by a functional militia. Just as intel is achieved in every single other area of space.

What you are asking for is the ability to put an alt in FW, so you can monitor free intel and go attack both militias with no negative effect on yourself.

This might be a solution to the 'Im not in militia and as such i dont have the resource of hundreds of players reporting things, but such intel is useful so i should be entitled to have it generated and handed to me on a silver platter because im not very good at roaming' problem.

But it isnt a solution to any real problem in FW.