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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
50
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Posted - 2017.02.13 18:07:19 -
[1] - Quote
Suitonia is running for CSM this year and I beleive he is a strong candidate. Recently I asked him what his thoughts are on how to improve FW. Here is his response: https://www.reddit.com/r/eve/comments/5tgojp/_/ddmlgky
First, I agree with him that the current tier system for rewards needs improvement.
Quote: I don't like the FW Tier system as it currently stands. You are punished heavily financially for being in a Tier 1 militia vs a Tier 5 one. This causes people to swap sides (There is no loyalty) and all the farmers join the T5 side making it even more unlikely of a comeback for the lower tier side. Additionally, If you're someone who sticks around, fights and pushes your militia into Tier3+ and start winning, your reward is the lower amounts of LP that you earned being completely devalued as soon as all the farmers and FW mission runners flip over to your side. I would like to see change to this and maybe introduce personal/corporation tiers and lower the faction wide militia tiers. So you can still earn decently by being in the weaker militia if you personally are contributing, and farmers who switch sides need to work before getting the best payouts, and FW missioners who don't contribute to the warzone earn less.
This is a suggestion I am on board with! I go out plexing for Minmatar milia on the regular, and it feels like those who join when the going is good/easy get rewarded better than I do. This would also help with win-trading, because people who keep fighting while one side is the underdog can still get good LP payouts.
Second, I don't like the idea of splitting FW militias up from a 2v2 into a 1v1v1v1. Yes it will get more fights, and it could help balance power in the event that one side starts dominating...but I rather enjoy setting up relations, trade deals, and other friendly interactions with our allied militia. I think it keeps things interesting, especially considering that the Minmatar LP store has powerful faction points/scrams, which is something that gallente EWAR ships are bonused towards. And gallente LP store have powerful webs, which is something Minmatar EWAR ships are bonuses for. It's a good opportunity for trade deals and to help each other out. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
682
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 04:06:31 -
[2] - Quote
for the personal tier, i can see the ranks (i.e. luminaire general) could be used/incorporated in this.
Just Add Water
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
55
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Posted - 2017.02.15 11:10:55 -
[3] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:for the personal tier, i can see the ranks (i.e. luminaire general) could be used/incorporated in this.
That's a great idea. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
6
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Posted - 2017.02.15 15:43:43 -
[4] - Quote
Perhaps a simpler implementation would be to have any LP earned for one faction give you an equal negative LP adjustment to the other faction.
So if you earn 10 million Amarr LP... you'd have a negative 10 million Minmatar LP balance that you'd have to grind up to zero before you could get any rewards from them from the LP store.
You'd still have some switching between Amarr/Caldari or Gallente/Minmatar in order to grind out LP... but at least they wouldn't be actively working AGAINST their old FW group. The thing creating loyalty would be that huge negative LP grind. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
55
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 17:31:26 -
[5] - Quote
That's a good idea, but what if you made multiple accounts? What if you had two different characters and you used the ISK you generated from LP on either side of the warzone to fund PvP with a third character? |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
6
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 17:55:14 -
[6] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:That's a good idea, but what if you made multiple accounts? What if you had two different characters and you used the ISK you generated from LP on either side of the warzone to fund PvP with a third character?
I don't see the problem. If you had a personal loyalty system like originally proposed, I assume that would be toon based as well and the same thing could happen.
The only reason I was suggesting negative loyalty point is in my mind (as a software developer) that seems like a fairly small change.... just check all the interactions with LP to make sure they can handle a negative value without crashing or doing something goofy like treating it as a gigantic LP total... and then write the code to reduce the LP balance toward the opposing milita group when LP is earned for one.
This was more of an "easy implementation" suggestion for the original idea... perhaps one that got you 80% of the desired result for 5% of the dev time. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1313
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 19:00:26 -
[7] - Quote
Spies Blue kills People who steal sites
These are the things that ruin FW. Fix these issues and it's a great environment.
switching sides should cause all loss of standings from the previous side, at the minimum.
Create 'campaigns' Only people who participated in the campaign can enjoy the rewards. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
691
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 03:56:17 -
[8] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Spies Blue kills People who steal sites
These are the things that ruin FW. Fix these issues and it's a great environment.
switching sides should cause all loss of standings from the previous side, at the minimum.
Create 'campaigns' Only people who participated in the campaign can enjoy the rewards.
what do you mean, like random systems becoming 'weaker' for siege for a set of time? or thier respective faction will give orders to flip some random system and in accomplishing so gives bonus LPs or some sort of rewards?
Just Add Water
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
55
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Posted - 2017.02.16 04:36:21 -
[9] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Boozbaz wrote:That's a good idea, but what if you made multiple accounts? What if you had two different characters and you used the ISK you generated from LP on either side of the warzone to fund PvP with a third character? I don't see the problem. If you had a personal loyalty system like originally proposed, I assume that would be toon based as well and the same thing could happen. The only reason I was suggesting negative loyalty point is in my mind (as a software developer) that seems like a fairly small change.... just check all the interactions with LP to make sure they can handle a negative value without crashing or doing something goofy like treating it as a gigantic LP total... and then write the code to reduce the LP balance toward the opposing milita group when LP is earned for one. This was more of an "easy implementation" suggestion for the original idea... perhaps one that got you 80% of the desired result for 5% of the dev time.
I think we're having a miscommunication here.
The problem is related to how the tier system works in Faction Warfare. Say for example, that your faction is at Tier 1 - you get little payouts for flipping plexes. This is supposed to incentivize taking over territory and pushing your faction up into higher tiers.
The problem is that when a faction is in Tier 1, a lot of players give up on trying to push it up into higher tiers. This makes it *very* hard for the few remaining loyal players who continue to fight to bring it back up. Those who continue grinding plexes in a T1 faction make less than 30 million isk per hour. I'd say they make maybe 10-15 million ISK per hour by flipping novice/small plexes, dealing with PVP situations, and losing ships. Personally, I don't think 10-15 million ISK per hour is enough to warrant flipping plexes - and I can understand why so many players *leave* when a faction is struggling in T1.
One might argue that plexing isn't meant to be a source of income, it's meant to be a place to fight. If that's the case, why not just take away all LP payout for flipping plexes, and let them sit there? Who is going to sit in a plex and wait for a fight? No one. Trust me. No one is going to sit in a plex for 10-20 minutes just to see if someone comes to fight them.
What bothers me, is what happens when these loyal, hard working players grind the plexes in the faction warfare zone, and get their faction back up to Tier 2/3/4. When a Faction hits higher tiers of rewards, all of a sudden other players join the party and start farming LP, reaping the rewards of the hard work of the players who were loyal and worked hard to get the Faction out of a rut. And also making it *that* much harder for the opposite side to regain territory. So the pendulum swings back and forth. When should join Minmatar Faction Warfare? Well when Minmatar is winning! When should you join Amarr Faction Warfare? Again, the answer is when Amarr is winning!
I hope what I'm saying make sense to you. I like the idea of individual players or corporations having their own tier of rewards, because then those few loyal players who grind away while a faction is losing a warzone still get rewarded well for doing so. And those who jump in when the going is good, have to actually work their way up the tiers to get good rewards.
Now you said that it could be easier to code a system where a player gains negative LP for the opposing faction when they gain LP for their current one. I agree that it could potentially be easier for CCP to program that into the game. What I don't understand is how that would help in the problem that I just elaborated upon above. If you can explain to me how it would help, I'm open to it. |
Cire Xinehp
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
23
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 13:51:30 -
[10] - Quote
Being in a lower tier pushes the LP value up for the "Losing side" because there is less LP coming in.
At least that is how I've seen things to work, so being in a lower tier and earning less LP isn't a punishment because it's worth more.
As the Gal Mil LP value climbs the farmers etc will switch sides to try and cash in on the additional value because the Caldari LP value has dropped.
From reading what has been suggested etc it seems this is being missed and it really does need to be taken into account. |
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
10
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 14:26:13 -
[11] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:
I think we're having a miscommunication here.
The problem is related to how the tier system works in Faction Warfare. Say for example, that your faction is at Tier 1 - you get little payouts for flipping plexes. This is supposed to incentivize taking over territory and pushing your faction up into higher tiers.
The problem is that when a faction is in Tier 1, a lot of players give up on trying to push it up into higher tiers. This makes it very hard for the few remaining loyal players who continue to fight to bring it back up. Those who continue grinding plexes in a T1 faction make less than 30 million isk per hour. I'd say they make maybe 10-15 million ISK per hour by flipping novice/small plexes, dealing with PVP situations, and losing ships. Personally, I don't think 10-15 million ISK per hour is enough to warrant flipping plexes - and I can understand why so many players leave when a faction is struggling in T1.
One might argue that plexing isn't meant to be a source of income, it's meant to be a place to fight. If that's the case, why not just take away all LP payout for flipping plexes, and let them sit there? Who is going to sit in a plex and wait inside of it for 10-39 minutes when there's only two reasons for being inside of it: A) Getting fights in ships that are of similar power level to your own. And B) Grinding your faction up into higher tiers of LP payouts for running FW missions? I'm just going to go on a limb here and say this: very few players. If you wanted to get fights, it would be much faster just to roam around asking people to duel you on a stargate.
What bothers me, is what happens when these loyal, diligent players grind the plexes in the faction warfare zone, and get their faction back up to Tier 2/3/4; because when a Faction hits higher tiers of rewards, all of a sudden other players join the party and start farming LP, reaping the rewards of the hard work of the players who were loyal and stuck around to get thier Faction out of a rut. And also making it that much harder for the opposite side to regain territory. So the pendulum swings back and forth. When should you join Minmatar Faction Warfare? Well when Minmatar is winning! When should you join Amarr Faction Warfare? Again, the answer is when Amarr is winning!
I hope what I'm saying make sense to you. I like the idea of individual players or corporations having their own tier of rewards, because then those few loyal players who grind away while a faction is losing a warzone still get rewarded well for doing so. And those who jump in when the going is good, have to actually work their way up the tiers to get good rewards.
Perhaps it could be a two tiered system. Your LP payout could be based on two factors: A) What tier your entire faction is currently at. And B) What tier you are personally at. Then if your faction is at T1, but you personally (or your corporation) is at T5, then you get medium level rewards (current T3 rewards). And if both your Faction and you personally are at T5, then you get what is currently T5 rewards.
Now you said that it could be easier to code a system where a player gains negative LP for the opposing faction when they gain LP for their current one. I agree that it could potentially be easier for CCP to program that into the game. What I don't understand is how that would help in the problem that I just elaborated upon above. If you can explain to me how it would help, I'm open to it.
The point of the negative number is to prevent a toon from jumping back and forth between factions based on who's at the higher tier. That seemed to be the point of having "personal tiers"... to have something incentivizing you from flipping to the higher tier side.
If that's the case... having a negative LP balance with the opposing side does the same thing. If you have been grinding Amarr plexes and all of a sudden the minnies flip the board... under the current setup the plex farmers will flip to the minnie side, right? But would they if they had ground 50 million amarr LP and thus had a -50 million LP balance with minmatar? That would mean they'd have to grind 50 million minnie LP just to get to 0... and to start being able to cash in LP for anything.
The huge negative LP balance from grinding amarr prevents an individual toon from switching and grinding Minmatar. Now... could they have another toon for the other side? Yeah... but they could also have another toon with high tiers for the other side in your personal tier system... and they'd still get higher rewards if the other side was winning.
If the flipping of sides isn't your main issue and the fact that those grinding on a lower tier get lower rewards is... the negative LP suggestion doesn't address that. It addresses only the flipping of sides. But preventing toons from flipping sides may have an impact on how many people are plexing for the losing side... it's hard to tell player reactions on a change like that ahead of time.
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
633
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 15:00:28 -
[12] - Quote
No mention of the impacts of Citadels on FW.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
633
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 15:23:33 -
[13] - Quote
Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.
Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful system upgrades Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts. Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers).
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1495
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 16:39:12 -
[14] - Quote
CCP has been messing with tiers and consequences and npe with faction war constantly. None of it makes fighting for sov any more fun.
The reason faction war is stagnant is because it is no fun to fight for sov. Getting in alts and rabbit plexing is very bad gameplay. Yet that is how you get the most victory points for your faction.
Around inferno CCP promised they would do 2 things to help make fighting for sov more fun. 1) timer rollbacks 2) real time intel tools for when plexes are captured.
CCP promised this years ago and never delivered. CCP needs to finally focus on these 2 things. They would help drive out plex rabbits and make fighting for sov a real pvp activity.
The rest of the stuff proposed will not really deliver any significant improvement. And sadly will just be a diversion from the main problem with sov.
Suitonia is dubious of rollbacks because he doesn't want pirates to impact the warzone. There is no reason pirates should not have an impact on the war zone. If a third party prevents a military for accomplishing goals then the military has to deal with it. That is how eve works. Rollbacks are very important.
However, Pirates would not have the realtime intel that militias should have. If pirates want more available pvp they would then start joining fw to get this information. Then fw would heat up like eve has never seen before. I would join fw again if it had real time intel about plexes being captured.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
633
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 16:49:44 -
[15] - Quote
dual timers seems like a more elegant solution than timer rollbacks.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
56
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 17:39:21 -
[16] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.
Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful system upgrades Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts. Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers). Citadel problem.
These are all really good points. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
273
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 18:10:34 -
[17] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.
Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful system upgrades Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts. Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers). Citadel problem. These are all really good points.
Yep. Thanatos is one of the most learned protagonists of FW. That list is a collection of a lot of hard thinking by a number of long term Militia Troops.
Alongside the above:
1. The FW LP Store needs an overhaul too.
- Tags should be consolidated into a single tag (Minmatar Militia Tag), etc. Large plex's spawns drop more of the same tag than spawns in the smaller plex's
- Change the costs of some of the items to just include a number of the single tag.
- Make some of the more expensive (possibly more lucrative or desirable) items in the LP store only available to higher FW Militia ranks - or add new items that are High Rank only.
- Put Militia Rank Tags into Faction Warfare Capsuleer wrecks
- Put Faction Warfare Militia Rank Tags into costs of some items in the LP store. [oh I need PvP tag(s) to get that item]
- Rebalance the items across the 4 Militia LP Stores (yeah I think Amarr should have a scram and Minmatar currently has a far better spread of modules in it's LP Store). - I'm probably too biased on this one.
2. The dual timer suggestion I'm not sure about. I still favour rollback, which I believe would need careful implementing to not be broken.
As there is still a problem that a single capsuleer cannot defend a system from another single farming capsuleer without resorting to warp ping pong (which is poor quality gameplay = bad thing) I don't think the dual timers thing would work... maybe.
However, I will concede, a balance of other mechanics would likely promote interactive gameplay and reduce farming a little bit more (some of the previous attempts have been good like the defensive plexing LP rewards being index linked to the contested level).
3. Ranks
Give the FW playerbase something as a reward for grinding and pew'ing themselves up to a high rank other than a badge on the character sheet that no one looks at.
Reward each rank up somehow, with more than just an increment to the standings.
Then Millita switching becomes an issue as you lose rank once you switch.
FW has suffered a population crisis because so many long term Militia pilots have quit due to the system not working. This low population leads CCP to ignore requests for change as "why bother coz it's only a stepping stone".
Failure to realise that this is a part of Eve (under the right conditions) which could be heavily populated by long term subscribers is an error. There are many who want to play a faction and be part of a factions story. Make it possible and they will come.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 18:22:13 -
[18] - Quote
As always lots of good ideas and a relatively healthy discussion.
The actual specific mechanics of changes almost don't matter right now, CCP inevitably comes up with heir own twists.
Priority is to get a CSM representative, I believe there is at least one other possible militia representative.
Not sure how you galvanise enough votes behind them to get representation. |
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
636
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 18:51:35 -
[19] - Quote
Part of the issue we seem to run into on a semi-regular basis is how FW is currently just not dealt with or considered very much on the CCP side for whatever the reason. I'm not sure Suitonia or any other CSM rep by themselves will be able to change that, but it would be interesting to hear how they might go about it.
The CSM notes give us a glimps, though admittedly not a full picture, at how FW is viewed in comparison to other things going on at CCP:
"CCP Guard asked if the CSM felt that they had managed to talk to everyone and about everything they felt they needed to at this Summit. Nashh pointed out that it would have been nicer to have a longer community session. Gorski commented that it would have been nice to have a Lowsec and Faction Warfare session, with CCP Logibro replying that that session in particular was not put on the schedule as the development team is unable to commit to anything in the shorter term and Team Five-0 were already having a large number of meetings. "
Source
As players if we really are interested in getting more attention from CCP we might need to find a way to get FW to rise to the surface more frequently.
On the plus side the little things list used to include things like getting T3Ds out of smalls, and mass fitting of ships, both of which have been implemented in the game.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
57
|
Posted - 2017.02.16 19:31:24 -
[20] - Quote
Thanatos you make some really good points. In the very first summit video, all of the CSM members did agree that FW needs to be brought up. I also emailed all of them prior to their summit. Emailing the CSM members is a good idea on all our behalf. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 16:57:24 -
[21] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:dual timers seems like a more elegant solution than timer rollbacks.
The dual timer idea is considerably more forgiving to rabbit plexing. Not only does it require the pvper to stay in the plex while it rollsback to neutral but more importantly it would not effect rabbit plexers who run from pirates. This is likely a substantial number of combatants who enter plexes.
So the question really is how important is it to eliminate rabbit plexing. This highlights Master Sergeants MacRobert's point
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
FW has suffered a population crisis because so many long term Militia pilots have quit due to the system not working. .
There was a time when the vast majority of fw players were clearly behind timer rollbacks and everyone hoped they would do away with rabbit plexing. CCP acknowledged this popular support and promised rollbacks and better intel tools. But CCP never changed anything so those who remain are almost by definition those who don't think rabbit plexing is that big of a problem.
The proposals Thanatos made are all fine and good but they are not going to change anything respecting rabbit plexing. This has caused endless disenchantment with faction war since it started. Many had hopes that Hans would push to end that when he was in CSM but alas it was not to be. Instead we had more changes that tweaked tier systems and benefits as well as tweaks to npcs back and forth that really never addressed why many people think the fw sov system is fundamentally broken.
It is interesting that those who now remain in faction war don't even list rollbacks as a change they want.
Bottom line is CCP has to decide whether they think rabbit plexing is good or bad. They seemed to say it was bad and promised to take measures against it but then we just never heard from them again.
It would be great if someone from CSM would at least ask CCP what the deal is with these changes. I give citations to the promises in an earlier post if anyone is interested:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6607431#post6607431
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
12
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Posted - 2017.02.17 17:51:39 -
[22] - Quote
SHOULD a neutral pirate scaring a plexer away interupt or set back plexing?
They aren't actively trying to "win the system/complex" back for the other side... they're neutral. They just want to blow up ships... they don't care who holds the system. If you're trying to win the faction war, fights with pirates really are a side effect. Fights with the enemy is the actual point. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 18:18:12 -
[23] - Quote
Scialt wrote:SHOULD a neutral pirate scaring a plexer away interupt or set back plexing?
They aren't actively trying to "win the system/complex" back for the other side... they're neutral. They just want to blow up ships... they don't care who holds the system. If you're trying to win the faction war, fights with pirates really are a side effect. Fights with the enemy is the actual point.
If you want people in plexes to be pvpers then the more disruption to rabbit plexing the better. The side that can pvp better will have the better chances of winning plexes and therefor the sov war. The pvp may be against pirates or it might be against the enemy it really doesn't matter to most pvpers.
Keep in mind both sides will have to deal with pirates. So unless there is some sort of deal worked out with neutrals (and such diplomacy is something eve has always supported) then both sides are still on equal footing. Plexes will be harder to win. Its true. But perhaps they should award more victory points if that is the case. (I don't really care about loyalty points)
Also I would point out that there are still some advantages to the fw player in the plex: 1) They are in the plex to begin with so can set up range (this is substantial) 2) FW players who just want to win the plex just need to fight off the person entering. So they can have very long range weapons and don't even really need to worry about fitting a point. For the nonfaction war player looking for a kill they would need to fit a point and just chasing someone doesn't really accomplish their purpose.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
12
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Posted - 2017.02.17 18:27:33 -
[24] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Scialt wrote:SHOULD a neutral pirate scaring a plexer away interupt or set back plexing?
They aren't actively trying to "win the system/complex" back for the other side... they're neutral. They just want to blow up ships... they don't care who holds the system. If you're trying to win the faction war, fights with pirates really are a side effect. Fights with the enemy is the actual point. If you want people in plexes to be pvpers then the more disruption to rabbit plexing the better. The side that can pvp better will have the better chances of winning plexes and therefor the sov war. The pvp may be against pirates or it might be against the enemy it really doesn't matter to most pvpers. Keep in mind both sides will have to deal with pirates. So unless there is some sort of deal worked out with neutrals (and such diplomacy is something eve has always supported) then both sides are still on equal footing. Plexes will be harder to win. Its true. But perhaps they should award more victory points if that is the case. (I don't really care about loyalty points) Also I would point out that there are still some advantages to the fw player in the plex: 1) They are in the plex to begin with so can set up range (this is substantial) 2) FW players who just want to win the plex just need to fight off the person entering. So they can have very long range weapons and don't even really need to worry about fitting a point. For the nonfaction war player looking for a kill they would need to fit a point and just chasing someone doesn't really accomplish their purpose.
I guess it comes down to the question of what FW is about?
Is it just about PvP... as much as possible? Or is it about the "game" of plexing and capturing systems between the opposing factions?
If it's the former, then anything promoting any PvP would be good. I have my doubts that making the current plexing mechanic a lot harder would in fact increase pvp. Instead it might drive people away from FW and more toward other ways of making isk which might in fact lower the number of targets for people seeking PvP around plexes. I suppose it might make it easier for the hunter in that they're more likely to have a willing target at a plex once they find someone at a plex... but the number of people they find at plexes in total might be much lower.
If it's the latter, neutrals aren't really part of the game. I'm not sure their actions should have the same impact as an opposing faction member doing the same things. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 19:26:31 -
[25] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Cearain wrote:Scialt wrote:SHOULD a neutral pirate scaring a plexer away interupt or set back plexing?
They aren't actively trying to "win the system/complex" back for the other side... they're neutral. They just want to blow up ships... they don't care who holds the system. If you're trying to win the faction war, fights with pirates really are a side effect. Fights with the enemy is the actual point. If you want people in plexes to be pvpers then the more disruption to rabbit plexing the better. The side that can pvp better will have the better chances of winning plexes and therefor the sov war. The pvp may be against pirates or it might be against the enemy it really doesn't matter to most pvpers. Keep in mind both sides will have to deal with pirates. So unless there is some sort of deal worked out with neutrals (and such diplomacy is something eve has always supported) then both sides are still on equal footing. Plexes will be harder to win. Its true. But perhaps they should award more victory points if that is the case. (I don't really care about loyalty points) Also I would point out that there are still some advantages to the fw player in the plex: 1) They are in the plex to begin with so can set up range (this is substantial) 2) FW players who just want to win the plex just need to fight off the person entering. So they can have very long range weapons and don't even really need to worry about fitting a point. For the nonfaction war player looking for a kill they would need to fit a point and just chasing someone doesn't really accomplish their purpose. I guess it comes down to the question of what FW is about? Is it just about PvP... as much as possible? Or is it about the "game" of plexing and capturing systems between the opposing factions? If it's the former, then anything promoting any PvP would be good. I have my doubts that making the current plexing mechanic a lot harder would in fact increase pvp. Instead it might drive people away from FW and more toward other ways of making isk which might in fact lower the number of targets for people seeking PvP around plexes. I suppose it might make it easier for the hunter in that they're more likely to have a willing target at a plex once they find someone at a plex... but the number of people they find at plexes in total might be much lower. If it's the latter, neutrals aren't really part of the game. I'm not sure their actions should have the same impact as an opposing faction member doing the same things.
I don't think it's a dichotomy like you suggest. It can be a pvp game about capturing plexes and systems. And yes IMO I think FW sov should be a pvp game.
If you want to do the whole rabbit v. hunter thing you can do fw missions. Players also have many non fw options in eve to do hunter v rabbit games in null, wormholes and low sec. Missions, exploration, sleeper sites, ratting, special events etc etc. IMO Eve really doesn't need yet another rabbit v hunter mechanic. It needs more good quallity pvp war mechanics. And leaving fw sov as yet another hunter v rabbit game is not good for fw and is especially bad for eve as a whole.
The sov game should simply be better than who can multibox the most alts in different plexes and warp off if trouble comes.
As far as making isk, I don't care if ccp wants to increase the amount of lp per plex. Fewer plexes captured but the same amount of total lp given to plexers. Or they could lower the amount of lp fw missions offer. (which would make the lp in plexes comparatively more valuable.) But right now the lp is just getting devalued by people multiboxing alts and rabbit plexing. If you want that lp to be worth more isk you might want to end rabbit plexing as well.
But the key is to make winning sov fun. If people are just grinding plexes so they can make isk for their null sec main then fw is not where it should be. EVE players need fulfilling game-play that they want to actually spend that isk on. IMO fighting for faction war sov could be a mechanic like that - if ccp makes the changes it promised the players. But as the years go by and the promises are forgotten more eve players leave fw and maybe even the game as a whole.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 19:59:33 -
[26] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Scialt wrote:Cearain wrote:Scialt wrote:SHOULD a neutral pirate scaring a plexer away interupt or set back plexing?
They aren't actively trying to "win the system/complex" back for the other side... they're neutral. They just want to blow up ships... they don't care who holds the system. If you're trying to win the faction war, fights with pirates really are a side effect. Fights with the enemy is the actual point. If you want people in plexes to be pvpers then the more disruption to rabbit plexing the better. The side that can pvp better will have the better chances of winning plexes and therefor the sov war. The pvp may be against pirates or it might be against the enemy it really doesn't matter to most pvpers. Keep in mind both sides will have to deal with pirates. So unless there is some sort of deal worked out with neutrals (and such diplomacy is something eve has always supported) then both sides are still on equal footing. Plexes will be harder to win. Its true. But perhaps they should award more victory points if that is the case. (I don't really care about loyalty points) Also I would point out that there are still some advantages to the fw player in the plex: 1) They are in the plex to begin with so can set up range (this is substantial) 2) FW players who just want to win the plex just need to fight off the person entering. So they can have very long range weapons and don't even really need to worry about fitting a point. For the nonfaction war player looking for a kill they would need to fit a point and just chasing someone doesn't really accomplish their purpose. I guess it comes down to the question of what FW is about? Is it just about PvP... as much as possible? Or is it about the "game" of plexing and capturing systems between the opposing factions? If it's the former, then anything promoting any PvP would be good. I have my doubts that making the current plexing mechanic a lot harder would in fact increase pvp. Instead it might drive people away from FW and more toward other ways of making isk which might in fact lower the number of targets for people seeking PvP around plexes. I suppose it might make it easier for the hunter in that they're more likely to have a willing target at a plex once they find someone at a plex... but the number of people they find at plexes in total might be much lower. If it's the latter, neutrals aren't really part of the game. I'm not sure their actions should have the same impact as an opposing faction member doing the same things. I don't think it's a dichotomy like you suggest. It can be a pvp game about capturing plexes and systems. And yes IMO I think FW sov should be a pvp game. If you want to do the whole rabbit v. hunter thing you can do fw missions. Players also have many non fw options in eve to do hunter v rabbit games in null, wormholes and low sec. Missions, exploration, sleeper sites, ratting, special events etc etc. IMO Eve really doesn't need yet another rabbit v hunter mechanic. It needs more good quallity pvp war mechanics. And leaving fw sov as yet another hunter v rabbit game is not good for fw and is especially bad for eve as a whole. The sov game should simply be better than who can multibox the most alts in different plexes and warp off if trouble comes. As far as making isk, I don't care if ccp wants to increase the amount of lp per plex. Fewer plexes captured but the same amount of total lp given to plexers. Or they could lower the amount of lp fw missions offer. (which would make the lp in plexes comparatively more valuable.) But right now the lp is just getting devalued by people multiboxing alts and rabbit plexing. If you want that lp to be worth more isk you might want to end rabbit plexing as well. But the key is to make winning sov fun. If people are just grinding plexes so they can make isk for their null sec main then fw is not where it should be. EVE players need fulfilling game-play that they want to actually spend that isk on. IMO fighting for faction war sov could be a mechanic like that - if ccp makes the changes it promised the players. But as the years go by and the promises are forgotten more eve players leave fw and maybe even the game as a whole.
I wasn't really talking about the idea that rabbiting plexes should be able to be stopped by FW opponents... I question if neutrals should stop it. Neutrals (or pirates if you will) are there to get in fights. They aren't playing the FW game... or they'd join a FW corp.
If the goal of FW is JUST pvp... then having neutrals disrupt plexing might be reasonable. It would (in theory) encourage the plexer to stay and fight.
But if the goal of FW is the "game" (which includes PvP between militias)... it might not be reasonable. There's not a great reason as to why a neutral should be able to impact the "game" of FW as much as the participants.
As to what "fun" is... I've learned that my ideas of what is fun are not the same as others in my corp. Some people view isk acquisition as fun in itself... not as an avenue for their main somewhere else. Others love PvP. Some like running missions for its own sake. Some like working the manufacturing process.
It's difficult to use that as a metric when making decisions.
Also... as far as the "rabbit vs hunter" part... that feels like what PvP in eve is for the most part. Even if you lose all plex progress if you warp away from the grid of a site.... I'm going to run if a ship or group of ships that outclasses me comes in. That's not necessarily being a rabbit... that's simply choosing your fights. Part of PvP in the game is catching a kill or avoiding being caught by a superior force. Many times that's the battle. I don't think there's much you can do with the mechanics that will alleviate that.
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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
374
|
Posted - 2017.02.17 20:56:48 -
[27] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:No mention of the impacts of Citadels on FW. Why citadels is a problem in FW space in comparison to POSes? |
LouHodo
Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2017.02.18 20:42:23 -
[28] - Quote
My major issue with FW is it feels hollow.
There is no real lasting effect on the rest of the universe. It is like fighting a war that no one cares about and has no effect on anything you know.
If I capture a system with my corp mates, it has NO effect on the rest of the faction. Not like the Minmatar or the Amaar gain or lose a system that effects anything. There is no coverage of the FW in anything for the games news. There is MORE news on some 5 man corp going to war with another 5 man corp than anything to do with FW. |
Taurean Eltanin
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
129
|
Posted - 2017.02.18 20:57:31 -
[29] - Quote
LouHodo wrote:My major issue with FW is it feels hollow.
There is no real lasting effect on the rest of the universe. It is like fighting a war that no one cares about and has no effect on anything you know.
If I capture a system with my corp mates, it has NO effect on the rest of the faction. Not like the Minmatar or the Amaar gain or lose a system that effects anything. There is no coverage of the FW in anything for the games news. There is MORE news on some 5 man corp going to war with another 5 man corp than anything to do with FW.
CCP has hiven us null sec for wars that actually impact the people involved. FW is intentionally static, so that people can relax and find fights. Otherwise, the wars would have ended long ago, as on side in each conflict became dominant and crushed the other. We don't want the Caldari State going the way of Band of Brothers, for example.
If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.19 14:21:08 -
[30] - Quote
Taurean Eltanin wrote:LouHodo wrote:My major issue with FW is it feels hollow.
There is no real lasting effect on the rest of the universe. It is like fighting a war that no one cares about and has no effect on anything you know.
If I capture a system with my corp mates, it has NO effect on the rest of the faction. Not like the Minmatar or the Amaar gain or lose a system that effects anything. There is no coverage of the FW in anything for the games news. There is MORE news on some 5 man corp going to war with another 5 man corp than anything to do with FW. CCP has given us null sec for wars that actually impact the people involved. FW is intentionally static, so that people can relax and find fights. Otherwise, the wars would have ended long ago, as one side in each conflict became dominant and crushed the other. We don't want the Caldari State going the way of Band of Brothers, for example.
I think what you say about the more relaxed atmosphere is the most important.
I would just add that the converse is somewhat true as well. Other than having a director sneak in to hit disband its very hard to have any real lasting effect in null sec as well. I mean the imperium just suffered the largest most crushing defeat in eve history from a military perspective. Yet they just packed up and moved to delve. Since they are the largest group in their area (jump range) they are doing just fine. So although the impacts are larger in null sec they do not exactly have a "real lasting effect on the rest of the universe."
At base eve is a sandbox full of immortals. People can keep coming back to the fight as long as they want.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2045
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 16:36:19 -
[31] - Quote
The current tier system is fine. There is a common misconception that tier 1 is too punitive as its half that of tier 2.
Fact is that its very likely that your LP will become worth twice that of the opposing faction. This might take a little time since hte market has to adjust to supply but if you ignore the market in your appraisal of how the tier system works then you really do not understand what you are talking about.
In practical terms, tier 1 is not -50% of tier 2. And tier 4 is not +150% of tier 2.
This is compounded by those that put time in to getting the best rates for their items with sell orders etc.
Im not opposed to a change, but many people see problems with the tier system that just done exist.
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
CCP has given us null sec for wars that actually impact the people involved. FW is intentionally static, so that people can relax and find fights. Otherwise, the wars would have ended long ago, as one side in each conflict became dominant and crushed the other. We don't want the Caldari State going the way of Band of Brothers, for example.
This is not true, Null is FW-LITE.
FW offers just as many bragging rights, though perhaps not the resources. The fact that null is governed by timer after timer encouraging huge formups for pings and inactivity while things are not vulnerable, FW is a 24 hour battle. Any day you dont log in for 3 days straight, any 3 days, your home station could be inaccessible to you. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 18:27:42 -
[32] - Quote
Station lockouts in FW never did much beside make roaming more of a pia for FW players. It significantly decreased the amount of roaming faction war players would do. The fighting overall increased due to inferno for many different reasons but the lockouts made the fighting more concentrated. Hopefully citadels will change that - or ccp can just end fw station lockouts all together.
Anyone except the militia can dock in all stations. So its easy to get your stuff. There would be big fights every now and then when someone would push a heavily occupied enemy system but there never was really any stakes in the matter anyway. Just bragging rights. Citadels have a much larger impact on null sec sov - where it really was an issue if you lost your stuff in a station. Citadels probably have a beneficial impact in both places for the more casual player and players that like to pvp in multiple areas of space.
The LP store is horrible compared to how it was. Plus players have so much reserve lp from when it had value that they can dump it whenever that lp starts to gain value - which it rarely does anymore. Gallente traditionally had a great LP store in part because they used to have harder missions and in part because they have better offers. The missions were traditionally the way to get the most lp for your time. I am not sure if that is still the case after ccp changed missions. Are the missions now balanced?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2045
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 18:53:46 -
[33] - Quote
Every single big event in FW for the last few years has been due to station lock outs. Before tiers and station lock outs, FW was completely dead.
You have a very niche POV, that of a lone incursus/punisher pilot who flies alone and has a remarkably narrow engagement envelope and therefore see very few potential targets.
As with most low end soloers, you put your chosen game play on a pedestal at the expense of most other players.
As for the LP store, there is a lag, but i have seen huge swings in LP values across all 4 factions depending on their tier levels. The LP store has never yet prevented any single faction from 'swinging back'. And of course, if someone dumps a load of LP the market is crashed, but that always proven to be just momentary. Since all factions LP has varied in worth from 600/800 isk/LP to 2000/2500 isk/LP. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
380
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 21:38:49 -
[34] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: And on citadels. I would argue that they are good in mechanical terms. Im not a big fan of vulnerability timers or windows but i accept them. However good they are in general terms, they are completely incompatible with how FW has been for the last few years. During which time FW has generated more content than at any other time other than perhaps the first few months before everyone realise how there was no point to it and moved on.
But you could and still can drop a POS in the system for reshiping, so what's the difference apart from asset safety and that is not a FW problem it's a citadel problem. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2045
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 22:03:07 -
[35] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: And on citadels. I would argue that they are good in mechanical terms. Im not a big fan of vulnerability timers or windows but i accept them. However good they are in general terms, they are completely incompatible with how FW has been for the last few years. During which time FW has generated more content than at any other time other than perhaps the first few months before everyone realise how there was no point to it and moved on.
But you could and still can drop a POS in the system for reshiping, so what's the difference apart from asset safety and that is not a FW problem it's a citadel problem.
Assuming thats a serious question. The difference between a POS and a citadel is like night and day. POSes are notoriously hard to live and work out of with huge security issues, time consuming and potentially dangerous logistics and is subject to attack at any time and the defender has to be available at that time to manufacture a favourable out timer.
Not to mention the asset safety, which you dismiss as though it aint no thang. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
383
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Posted - 2017.02.19 23:39:18 -
[36] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: And on citadels. I would argue that they are good in mechanical terms. Im not a big fan of vulnerability timers or windows but i accept them. However good they are in general terms, they are completely incompatible with how FW has been for the last few years. During which time FW has generated more content than at any other time other than perhaps the first few months before everyone realise how there was no point to it and moved on.
But you could and still can drop a POS in the system for reshiping, so what's the difference apart from asset safety and that is not a FW problem it's a citadel problem. Assuming thats a serious question. The difference between a POS and a citadel is like night and day. POSes are notoriously hard to live and work out of with huge security issues, time consuming and potentially dangerous logistics and is subject to attack at any time and the defender has to be available at that time to manufacture a favourable out timer. Not to mention the asset safety, which you dismiss as though it aint no thang. My suggetion would be that FW mechanics overrule any and all standings set by a citadel thereby preventing any WT from docking in any citadel in a system occupied by the opposing faction. This would restore the defensive advantage that was a part of system sieges. It would also restore the entire point of the siege in the first place. Everything that you mentioned is imo a citadel problem in general that can be summarized as they are too safe regardless in what type of space they are in.
I do have to say your standing suggestion is interesting, but it is impossible to deny that with POSes there was a possibility of staging in WT system, I never heard people complain about that. (to specify I never heard people have a problems with WTs having a destructible staging point in their system) Also good to keep in mind sooner or later POSes will get removed (CCP soon tm).
So my main question still is: is it bad in your opinion that WTs can stage from a destructible structure? |
Aves Asio
46
|
Posted - 2017.02.19 23:39:38 -
[37] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The current tier system is fine. There is a common misconception that tier 1 is too punitive as its half that of tier 2.
Fact is that its very likely that your LP will become worth twice that of the opposing faction. This might take a little time since hte market has to adjust to supply but if you ignore the market in your appraisal of how the tier system works then you really do not understand what you are talking about.
In practical terms, tier 1 is not -50% of tier 2. And tier 4 is not +150% of tier 2.
This is compounded by those that put time in to getting the best rates for their items with sell orders etc.
Im not opposed to a change, but many people see problems with the tier system that just done exist.
But if we remove the farmers from the equation then the whole system falls apart. |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
705
|
Posted - 2017.02.20 05:34:14 -
[38] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote: Everything that you mentioned is imo a citadel problem in general that can be summarized as they are too safe regardless in what type of space they are in.
I do have to say your standing suggestion is interesting, but it is impossible to deny that with POSes there was a possibility of staging in WT system, I never heard people complain about that. (to specify I never heard people have a problems with WTs having a destructible staging point in their system) Also good to keep in mind sooner or later POSes will get removed (CCP soon tm).
So my main question still is: is it bad in your opinion that WTs can stage from a destructible structure?
it is not bad if it's only POS, imho, some of the enjoyable system defenses i participated in was because the squids has POS in the system.
citadels are different, it totally voids the station lock-out game.
Just Add Water
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2045
|
Posted - 2017.02.20 17:57:16 -
[39] - Quote
Indeed, Citadels are a very different animal from a POS. POS requires a great deal more effort on every level and because of that it does not negate the homefield advantage. IMO, if a hostile force can turn a POS into a consistent advantage in system then im OK with that due to my appreciation of the challenges that would need to be overcome to do so.
Im sure that anyone that has fought from a POS during a system push will appreciate the utter chaos that quickly descends. Damaged ships, no readily available ammo, off-lined mods, shield passwords, POS defences, standings of multiple corps/alliances and NPC militia, trust issues, hanger access, assett theft due to password leaks, having to light cynos on hostile stations for logistics etc...
Im not sure what the deployment rules are for citadels in null space regarding ownership of the system you want to anchor it. However, as i mentioned before, FW is a 24/7 battle. FW occupancy does not have the safety net that null SOV does with its systems being defended by a multi stage timer system.
In FW, if all plexes are captured promptly, its possible to swing a system in less than 30 hours of continuous plexing (3.5% per hour average) from any starting point. There is NO equivalent of that in NULL. In NULL there is no requirement to log in to defend your null space apart from during well broadcasted timers. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
274
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 13:42:30 -
[40] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The current tier system is fine. There is a common misconception that tier 1 is too punitive as its half that of tier 2.
Fact is that its very likely that your LP will become worth twice that of the opposing faction. This might take a little time since hte market has to adjust to supply but if you ignore the market in your appraisal of how the tier system works then you really do not understand what you are talking about.
In practical terms, tier 1 is not -50% of tier 2. And tier 4 is not +150% of tier 2.
This is compounded by those that put time in to getting the best rates for their items with sell orders etc.
Im not opposed to a change, but many people see problems with the tier system that just done exist.
You wrote "There is a common misconception that tier 1 is too punitive as its half that of tier 2."
The misconception may be true (I disagree) but, even misconceived it results in their being a problem. Many from the player base sees it as a huge disadvantage. You already have to combat the natural tendency of gamers to migrate to the "winning" side. Whether they understand or not.
FW does not have decent "career goals" to encourage the likes of the core group you were once part of in GalMil. It needs them.
AmarrMil and MinMil had core groups that were similar but many became disillusioned sooner. This was in part because PvPers realised the broken system and many moved to the Cal-Gal zone to get more PvP (due to the activity over there and the proximity to lots of nullsec alliances playing Black Rise, etc..).
The current FW Tier penatly / bonus issue is a problem because it encourages flip flop capsuleers and reduces faction loyalty. It should be flattened and put Tier 1 at 100% (it is also in direct competition with other isk making activities and even Fighters have to fund their PvP habit).
There are a number of mechanisms that could be utilised to further encourage Faction loyalty and provide goals for someone to decide to stay in Militia for the long run. This should be looked at and FW should be given a proper expansion that it was apparently given in the past.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 17:28:13 -
[41] - Quote
I dont think, and even during the initial inferno iteration, didnt think, that pendulum swings are a bad thing in and of themselves. Even if the rate of swings back then were insane.
Flip flop farmers can be annoying, but its easy to deter the bulk of them with a sustained effort. The more eve players realise that there is nothing but aggro in x system, the less farming attempts will be made.
Beyond that, they are only annoying if you care about whats happening in some stationless system you dont care about x number of jumps away or you have some desire to permanently maintain tier 3 but lack the effort to project control over system x where some farmers farm.
Now, i personally do want to maintain gal tier 3, and killed known friendly alts when they farmed cal mil LP systems i had interests in. However, just because caldari swinging back isnt MY ideal, doesnt mean its a bad thing. The fact that it happened at all is a reflection of the effort put into the warzone in both pvp and pve terms.
I think the current mechanics allow pvp and pve efforts to influence swings in meaningful ways. Perhaps farmers drive the tier system the hardest, but i think its good that there is a tipping point in LP values where it makes far more sense to Oplex for LP at 50% rate, than it does to Dplex at whatever rate is applicable.
At this arbitrary moment, it becomes more difficult for the dominant side to maintain the satus quo (stagnation), and IMO is better for both sides as the mechanics themselves have, IMO, a subtle way of balancing the sides, intentional or not. Appreciated or not.
So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms. Removing farmers will not replace them with PVPers. The PVPers that will be there are already there. Those that say they quit FW because of farmers were not thinking it through very will.
My final point, to address the bulk of what you said. If the farmers swap sides to the losing side because viable income is better at tier 1 that it is on the winning side at tier 3/4. Why do so many PVPers see tier 1 as such a major disadvantage? Are farmers just more intelligent? Im pretty sure you can easily farm ISK to pay for any commonly used ship at tier 1 so i dont see a major problem. Sure, it usually takes longer to earn the ISK, but not as much as the amount of LP you get from a plex would suggest. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.21 18:27:11 -
[42] - Quote
If you are simply running plexes for isk then you will generally go with the higher tier - if you are rational. The fact that the market fluctuates to help all the sides at certain times does not prevent this - at all. Get the most lp for what ever side has the higher tier regardless of what the market is currently for that side. That way you will have more lp (over 2xs as much) for your time when the market swings to that factions favor.
I agree with Master Seargent McRoberts that there can be tweaks to make switching sides more difficult. But because of alts its not going to be a purely economic one or based on standings.
In the end it has to come down to making people feel certain sense of pride in gaining sov for their faction. When you best gain sov for your faction by always running away then that is going to be tough to make people proud of gaining sov for their faction. Sure there are some in faction war that think it's fine. But the overwhelming majority of eve players understand fw sov to be a joke. And they have good reason for their view. CCP needs to fix this and until they do, very few players are going to feel pride in accomplishing things for their faction in the sov war.
Null sec sov is often criticized and I am not saying it is perfect. But at least you don't win sov by constantly running away! You receive intel about what is attacked so you have an opportunity to defend in pvp. This is a big reason why thousands of people find null sec sov rewarding and only tiny fraction of that number find anything worthwhile in fighting for faction war sov.
As long as people keep saying rabbit plexing is not a big deal (and therefore ccp puts off the fixes for rabbit plexing) this will continue to be the case. People won't take pride in making gains in fw sov and they will therefore not really have any sense of commitment to one side. Of course there are exceptions in every faction. There are those who are committed to their faction despite the current horrible mechanics. But honestly they are so few compared to the overall playerbase, that I would hope even they could recognize that what is motivating them, is not working very well for the vast majority of players. Sadly a few of them are so attached to their tiny niche play style that they don't see what is obvious to the rest of eve. Some of them are very vocal on these forums as well.
Station Lockouts: To the extent anyone from null sec is reading this and isn't sure of the mechanics in fw. When you are "locked out" of a station in faction war there is no real risk to your assets. Your station will not be bubble-camped because there are no bubbles. You can have an alt on the same account as your faction war character dock in that station and move your stuff. (you can even have that alt join the other faction war militia, but you don't need to.) You do not need to try to get an alt in a player run alliance that will likely ask for your api and then see you are contracting all your stuff to that alt etc.
To say your stuff is more at risk in a faction war - low sec station than it is in a sov null sec station is extremely uninformed. So yeah if you are scratching your head at some of the comments here you should be. The person claiming there is more risk in fw stations is clueless. Station lockouts in fw are an annoyance they are not in any way a real risk. And citadels have a much larger impact on Null Sec sov than they do on fw space.
The 15% value tax for losing your stuff in a citadel is IMO a bigger risk than losing one of your characters access to a station in faction war space. In both cases you are going to have to relocate your stuff but the citadel also has a 15% tax on top of that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 18:38:08 -
[43] - Quote
I hope you arnt talking about me as though i said station lock outs in FW are riskier than station lock outs in NULL?
I didnt ever talk about NPC stations or NULL outposts in any area of space.
All my points were how citadels mostly negate FW station lock outs, and how FW occupancy is far more vulnerable than NULL sov, in response to someone saying that citadels had the same issues everywhere.
Losing 15% of you **** fit Oplexing stockpile is not really a burden, therefore not a risk in comparison to the advantages that a fully operational station offers you in a system you were previously unable to dock or had to rely on a POS.
And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.
Farmers punish the lazy, and lets not forget that to pvp at all, you must farm first. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.21 19:06:14 -
[44] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system.
This is really the bottom line on where we disagree. I gave my reasons for believing rabbit plexing is a huge problem for faction war. I won't go through it again now.
But yes you are definitely one of the people I was refering to as being an obstacle for getting people organized to help push ccp for the changes that will actually benefit faction war sov.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms.
Yeah well the overwhelming majority of players think fw farmville is not good on any level, and is actually pretty broken. Hopefully CCP will recognize the potential in faction war and finally make the changes it needs.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Aves Asio
46
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 11:04:41 -
[45] - Quote
Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
58
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 11:08:44 -
[46] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence
Someone posted a really good idea. Instead of having timer rollbacks, you get accelerated o-plexing until it hit's the default time.
So for example if you warp into a large and the stabbed punisher warps out. And you see the beacon is at 35 minutes. instead you would o-plex it down to the 20 minute mark (default starting spot for large plex) at an accelerated rate.
Helps both not only with giving us a way to deal with farmers, but also with trolls who leave a large/medium plex at 39 minutes. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
275
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 13:05:51 -
[47] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Aves Asio wrote:Farmers have too much power in the current system. I understand that we cant get rid of them but we should at least try to limit their influence Someone posted a really good idea. Instead of having timer rollbacks, you get accelerated o-plexing until it hit's the default time. So for example if you warp into a large and the stabbed punisher warps out. And you see the beacon is at 35 minutes. instead you would o-plex it down to the 20 minute mark (default starting spot for large plex) at an accelerated rate. Helps both not only with giving us a way to deal with farmers, but also with trolls who leave a large/medium plex at 39 minutes.
I have always supported the idea that the "timer rollback" suggestion utilises and accelerated "reseting" of the timer. I don't think the idea has been thrashed out enough to anticipate the pitfalls though.
Timer rollbacks appear to have stumbled at the first hurdle and so the details of implementation (which lets face it is Dev work) have not really been discussed considered.
If a single capsuleer chases out another from a plex. It should be quicker to reset their work but the same speed to capture the plex from "neutral".
This change would allow a single pilot to stop a single pilot capturing a system without warping, warping, warping, warping.. until their head explodes.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
58
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 13:11:08 -
[48] - Quote
Nice to see we can agree on this.
You know what else needs more work? The LP store. Holy **** that needs work. When you can buy deadspace items for cheaper than the FW items in the LP store, there's a real problem going on. |
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
640
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 14:22:16 -
[49] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Nice to see we can agree on this.
You know what else needs more work? The LP store. Holy **** that needs work. When you can buy deadspace items for cheaper than the FW items in the LP store, there's a real problem going on.
The LP store would require an entire rewrite.
JUSTK is recruiting
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 19:50:08 -
[50] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system.
This is really the bottom line on where we disagree. I gave my reasons for believing rabbit plexing is a huge problem for faction war. I won't go through it again now. But yes you are definitely one of the people I was refering to as being an obstacle for getting people organized to help push ccp for the changes that will actually benefit faction war sov. Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So, as ive said for years, IMO, farmers are good for FW in macro terms.
Yeah well the overwhelming majority of players think fw farmville is not good on any level, and is actually pretty broken. Hopefully CCP will recognize the potential in faction war and finally make the changes it needs.
I dont really recognise the problems you see, nor do i have a vision of perfect intel and tier pushes for mass cashouts like you have argued before.
People get frustrated at farmers because they run away. I think thats better than the farmers not existing and that plex being empty. Farmers have never had any influence over a single system that i have ever had any interest in.
The tide of the tier levels IS NOT content. Its a content driver. An objective of a purely PVP driven FW would be boring since there would be only way to progress and that would be dominated to whoever recruited the most neckbeards. The tier system is a nice way for us all to make isk. For every farmer that you think has no right to make isk in this computer game, there is another player who also neds isk.
All the isk generated usually finds its way into some form of PVP or other.
The CONTENT in FW is the combat, and regardless of what farmers are doing, combat is not hard to find or engineer on any scale in FW space. |
|
Andre Vauban
Aideron Robotics
477
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 19:54:28 -
[51] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: I have always supported the idea that the "timer rollback" suggestion utilises and accelerated "reseting" of the timer. I don't think the idea has been thrashed out enough to anticipate the pitfalls though.
Timer rollbacks appear to have stumbled at the first hurdle and so the details of implementation (which lets face it is Dev work) have not really been discussed considered.
If a single capsuleer chases out another from a plex. It should be quicker to reset their work but the same speed to capture the plex from "neutral".
This change would allow a single pilot to stop a single pilot capturing a system without warping, warping, warping, warping.. until their head explodes.
We have talked about this mechanic for YEARS. The way to implement this in the best possible way is:
1. Faction A starts running the timer, as today.
2. Faction B enters the plex and a fight happens, the timer stops as today.
3. Faction B wins the fight. The timer now kicks into "Auto tick back to neutral mode".
4. Faction B now leaves the plex, the timer will continue to tick back to neutral as if Faction B was still in the plex. This will continue until either A)The timer reaches the neutral position or B)Faction A returns. Either way, go back to step 1.
.
|
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
58
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 20:11:23 -
[52] - Quote
I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation. |
Andre Vauban
Aideron Robotics
478
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 20:29:31 -
[53] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation.
Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around.
In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.
.
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 20:36:34 -
[54] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Boozbaz wrote:I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation. Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around. In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.
They dont care, farmers are to blame for everything, they must be stopped whatever the cost /narrative. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 21:43:54 -
[55] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Boozbaz wrote:I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation. Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around. In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.
How fast the timers rollback can be tweaked. I agree with Master Sergeant MacRobert on that. IMO CCP should be in the fifth round of iterating on rollbacks and how they work by now - if they would have implemented them 3 years ago like they promised. But whatever, if the rollbacks are too fast then they can be slowed down.
I think the variety of plexes and the number of systems in faction war will prevent this blob for the win scenario you describe. Is the side with more pilots going to be in frigates? Then the side that is trying to take the plex can fit to destroyers/afs or cruisers designed to kill off frigates. If the larger side is in larger ships then the side with fewer pilots can go into novices. Sure having more numbers will be an advantage. But the side with fewer pilots will still be able to make gains and put up a fight.
Here is the other thing. If the side that has more pilots is not actually taking the plexes then they are not making progress themselves. This should count as a win for the side with fewer pilots. If the larger side leaves some pilots behind to take plexes then the side with fewer pilots can try to attack those left behind. And thus we have actual strategy and tactics over several systems at the same time.
But on the whole I think it would actually work out like real wars. That is instead of everyone just running from all combat or forming one giant ball of ships and leaving everything else unguarded players would actually spread their resources/fighters throughout the warzone in tactical ways. They would decide whether to try to hold certain areas and have to accept they cant keep others. Factions would have to depend on certain corps/pilots/fleets to hold certain areas so resources could be dedicated elsewhere.
The side that has better organization and logistics (supply and access to material not "healer" ships) will have a large advantage. But those will be more fun strategy considerations than having alts running from plex to plex like rabbits. Or just forming a blob to take the occasional "home" system.
When people are focused on taking a single system then nothing will really change. Then blob wins now and will win after the change as well. But the day to day operation of trying to win sov across the relevant regions would be much more engaging and fun.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Aves Asio
47
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 21:46:37 -
[56] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.
The pendulum swings when the farmers switch sides, by that time the hill has been climbed. The oplexers have done their jobs they broke the opposition, conquered enough sistems to support t3 and they have also donated to push for t3, thats when farmers make the swich. Not before because its not worth it for them, so if anything its the farmers that sail the tide. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 22:03:37 -
[57] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
And i didnt say rabbit plexing is 'not a big deal'. I said its actually a beneficial artifact of the tier system. Some may only see the times when it keeps the winning side on top, but those people are ignoring the other times when the farmers swing the pendulum. This gives all sides a 'tide' to sail upon rather than a 'hill to climb' against a richer, more cohesive force.
The pendulum swings when the farmers switch sides, by that time the hill has been climbed. The oplexers have done their jobs they broke the opposition, conquered enough sistems to support t3 and they have also donated to push for t3, thats when farmers make the swich. Not before because its not worth it for them, so if anything its the farmers that sail the tide.
Oplexing pays better than defense plexing so rabbits help it swing. Plus I am not sure but I assume you can still cross plex. So even if Caldari is tier one you can run a bunch of empty gallente systems as amarr if amarr is higher tiered.
The pendulum should not be swung by rabbits it should be swung by pvpers. If it takes too long to flip a system without all the rabbit alts then ccp can adjust the vp per plex. But the first step is to make fw sov a fun pvp game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 22:08:56 -
[58] - Quote
Its far more complicated than that. I cant say its wrong since some farmers swap when the 'losing' side hits tier 3.
More accurately, the losing side finally decides to push tier 2. In caldaris case, they had enough systems to do this for months but for some reason decided not to. Once at tier 2, the high ISK/LP value of caldari LP attracts farmers when then pushes occupancy to the point that cal mil can upgrade to tier 3.
During this time, gal mil pokes at caldari homesystems like hasm, okka and aivonen in order to shake cal mils confidence. Cal mil push vlil to show gal mil that they arnt untouchable. Overall, cal mil take enaluri, probably the best statement of confidence cal mil has made in a very long time.
While there were probably other important events im not aware of since im not active atm, these are what i see as the main events in the last year in our WZ. Non of them were driven solely by farmers. Farmers were just one aspect of the tide that made these events possible.
Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. Farmers making isk and providing fodder, and some surprises to would be hunters, is in no way a detriment to whatever narrative the more serious players want to adopt.
The way to fix farmers, if to recruit more proactive pvpers and populate space which would deny farmers LP while not effecting others ability to support themselves. Short of that, there is no problem with a horde of easily influenced and predicted farmers adding another layer of strategy onto the current meta.
'Fixing farmers' is not really any different to 'Make more space empty'. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 22:21:08 -
[59] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..
The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes.
If by joining militia you 1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking
2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress
then
Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 22:23:39 -
[60] - Quote
Having 2 bullet points is not the same as having 2 good points.
I count no good points.
People dont avoid FW because they lack perfect game delivered info.
People dont avoid FW because their ability to harass evasion farmers is not quite as effective as they would like it to be. |
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Liafcipe9000
ShekelSquad Interhole Revenue Service
37442
|
Posted - 2017.02.22 22:34:34 -
[61] - Quote
How come I never thought of this?
out with the farmers, in with the loyalists. anything that convinces the wstab farmers to go away is good in my book. and the idea for LP tiers by one's rank is a good one also. it would definitely give a whole lot more depth to FW, requiring loyalty for long times to get good pay.
the downside to this is when you want to bring people in from outside FW because newcomers will get very low LP. if corps get tiers that can make it easier to recruit people, but they still won't get as much as the high-ranking players do.
still, definitely go for that. we should post about this in F&I and try to get CCP's attention to this topic. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
58
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 00:22:41 -
[62] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Boozbaz wrote:I like the accelerated o-plexing idea better. Reason being, I've had situations where I've chased a stabbed d-plexer back and forth for a long time between two plexes, and the automatic timer rollback would not work well in that situation. Yes it would. The farmer makes zero progress and you undo any progress he has made as long as you actively chase him around. In the grand scheme of things, this farmer problem is relatively minor and any sort of accelerated rollback will have massive consequences when both sides are actually pvping. The attackers/defenders progress will be entirely wiped out for losing the first round of the battle for the plex. This will completely change the "king of the hill" type battles we have now and instead encourage one side to form a massive blob that warps from plex to plex "winning" for about 10 seconds while negating all the time the other side has put in. Will it work, sure but it will completely change plex warfare to big blobs and it will essentially become impossible to close any plexes.
Ah I stand corrected, you make a good point. |
Andre Vauban
Aideron Robotics
479
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 01:11:44 -
[63] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..
The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes. If by joining militia you 1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking 2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress then Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes.
#1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems.
#2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad.
.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
276
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 13:55:29 -
[64] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..
The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes. If by joining militia you 1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking 2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress then Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes. #1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems. #2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad.
Agreed.
Passive rollback will do that job.
However, the list posted by Thanatos, supported by many of us, has many items that many of us support.
Any FW fix that is done should be a number of elements, not just some cobbled on quick change to one mechanism.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
26
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 14:43:24 -
[65] - Quote
How about every complex have a warp disruption bubble that covers the entire range where the timer moves plus 10-20km?
Would that be a simple method of reducing plex farming if that's the issue? Would seem to force more fights... you could still run but it would be harder. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 15:10:53 -
[66] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: Asking Pvpers to plex up 60 back end systems uncontested is unrealistic with current numbers. ..
The numbers of pvpers would greatly increase if ccp made the 2 changes. If by joining militia you 1) had an intel tool that could tell you real time were plexes were being captured right by you instead of having to wander around looking 2)knew that the plexers were ready to fight because if they didn't stay and fight for the plex the timer would roll back and they would lose progress then Many many more pvpers would join fw and there would be no "back end" systems. The whole war zone would be full of pvpers fighting over plexes. #1 fine, I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it. However, I don't think this will cause any problems. #2 I still think any sort of accelerated rollbacks will cause a massive imbalance towards whichever side can form a flash blob. The winner of whomever wins the plex shouldn't get a time bonus. They should just get a bonus that says "If the other side doesn't bother to come back, I don't have to waste my time here undoing their progress.". This will result in pushing people to cram more people into plexes instead of spreading out. This is bad. Agreed. Passive rollback will do that job. However, the list posted by Thanatos, supported by many of us, has many items that many of us support. Any FW fix that is done should be a number of elements, not just some cobbled on quick change to one mechanism.
I think the three of us can agree on the essentials then.
I would be fine with a slower timer rollback. Again as MSM said before the details of these systems are implemented is really something for the devs. And it will likely need to be tweaked. Should it rollback if there is no enemy militia on grid and you warp out? Should the enemy militia just have to be on grid of the accelleration gate? Should they rollback anytime you leave? Ont he intel tools side: Should militias be informed if a neutal is in plex? Should they be told the type of plex being captured? Should they know how many enemy ships are there? Should they be informed how many friemdly ships are in there. etc etc. All of this can be sorted by ccp but we at least we need to know when our sov plexes are being attacked and we need some disincentive from running from every fight.
I would like to just say something toward the importance of having better intel tools. Andre says: "I don't think it is quite as important as you do because if you care about defending said system you should already have at least one person keeping an eye on it."
With an intel tool that gives you real time information about plexes being captured you can finally broaden your view beyond just a system or a handfull of systems and actually start fighting for sov throughout the front. Instead of having a blob occassionally fight over a single system 3 or 4xs a year we would actually have fighting spread out throughout the warzone. Those who want to just sit in a blob camping the huola Kourm gate can continue to do that. But in the meantime there will be allot of pvp happening throughout the warzone instead of the stagnation we currently see. (and by stagnation I don't mean that there is no pvp - but rather I mean there is no real concern for gaining sov. in the vast majority of systems the vast majority of pvp is just random meaningless pvp)
Just to understand how these changes would effect things consider that if these changes happen the first thing I would do is form or join a corp that is interested in gaining sov for a faction. And I mean all across the warzone not just a single system. Then the idea would be to have about dozen players who could each cover a constellation or cluster. By having this combined with a real time intel it would ensure that people are actually fighting for sov. There would be communication between the pilots in the different constellations so if one needed help pilots from a different constellation that wasn't being pressed could go over and help. This is the sort of real time strategic gameplay using real people combined with great small gang pvp that would make faction war sov become a huge draw. Finally the side that was winning the fw sov game would be doing it because they had better pvpers and better strategy. Rather than just more alts rabbit plexing.
Thanatos raised several good points too. They are all fine as far as they go but they are not going to really change faction war sov from the stagnant game that very few care about.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
268
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:22:24 -
[67] - Quote
Most of suitonia's comments read like someone who doesn't really play in FW but has read the rules, and either has an alt in for casual pvp, or knows someone who has an alt in for casual pvp. He talks about pirates hotdropping people if they form BS in large plexes (lul) and recon traps being the reason that we don't see T3D/cruiser brawls in mediums. Anyone who has a reasonable amount of familiarity with the system knows that these are wrong (one of them hilariously so). Recon traps matter for solo/micro gang pvp. No organized FW gang cares about recon traps. The reason you don't see T3ds vs. cruisers is cost pure and simple. High level plex pvp usually involves attrition doctrines because of the frequency of pvp and losses, so constant t3d losses hurt pretty hard.
The biggest problem with FW right now, imo, is citadels. Station lockouts used to be the primary motivator of FW occupancy warfare. Lose the sov, lose your stations. Fatigue set in at some point and occupancy warfare slacked off, but that had more to do with boredom and the sheer effort required to take an FW system. When both sides are motivated, there's nothing else in this game that quite compares to it. The ship losses for Burn Huola back in the day were staggering. Unfortunately, citadels have really put a hit on this type of gameplay for two reasons.
On the one hand, they make defense much harder. The advantages to defending an owned system are that it's much easier to ship in new equipment via JF, and reship times are much quicker, so you can get inside a new plex and set up in your optimal and control the warp in. Citadels erase this advantage for the defenders, sometimes making reship times quicker for the attacker, because of NPC station locations in the target system. They're also so easily defended due to TZ advantages and combat multipliers, that they're virtually impossible to get rid of once they're anchored and fit. And even if they do get blown up, asset safety means the attacking force loses almost nothing and can replace the citadel for less than the price of a fit capital ship.
On the other hand, they make FW sov almost meaningless, since they're so easy to defend and don't require occupancy to set up. Corps have been living in their home systems regardless of occupancy, with station lockouts barely affecting their day to day activities, due to the ease of living out of a citadel. So now you have a situation where occupancy warfare is both much more difficult, and also more irrelevant than before. Obviously, this isn't very conducive to healthy FW content.
There are two ways to fix this situation. Either, you have to change citadels themselves, by making them less functional or less defensible, or you need to change how citadels behave in FW space. Either way you're going to have to put restrictions on them, or give us a different reason to push FW occupancy.
I don't think CCP are going to want to change the base citadel design, so they need to function differently in FW space. Some possible restrictions are no docking rights at any structure for FW chars (or neuts for that matter) if you don't own the system occupancy. Barring that, you could great increase the required vuln times for citadels belonging to both neutrals and hostile FW entities. Maybe a hybrid of the two ideas, perhaps preventing hostile FW citadels completely, and greatly inceasing vuln times on neutral citadels in FW space.
There are other issues with FW, but this one is undoubtedly the most pressing. |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
268
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 18:41:32 -
[68] - Quote
As far as farmers go, crosi is right in that they don't really drive FW content, they're mainly an annoyance, although a significant one.
If you really wanted to do away with farmers, you have to do so through mechanics. There is no way to eliminate incentives to farm without also making FW pvp crushing to the people who actually do it full time, as opposed to people who put alts in.
Create a reward system that only rewards pvp and makes it very difficult to farm. You do this by tying LP rewards to success of your militia. Eliminate tier-based LP rewards. Make it so that offensive plexing only gives out LP if you successfully bash the IHUB and take the system. Defensive LP only pays out if you maintain a certain % for a certain amount of time on a particular system. Increase rewards for both offensive and defensive LP based on how contested a system already is to create hotzones and encourage more PVP. Keep missions in so that a defeated side still has the ability to earn money and try to fight back.
Oh, and keep FW 2v2, none of this 1v1v1v1 BS. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 19:49:39 -
[69] - Quote
Julius I think you may be a bit too hard on Suitonia. And perhaps some views other than the very few who are die hard faction war guys are warranted. I mean many more people have become disenchanted with the faction war sov system and left it rather than stayed to continue fighting for sov in a broken system. So maybe the issues he sees might not be issues for you but would you agree that not many people care about faction war sov beyond just a few systems they base out of?
Julius Foederatus wrote: The ship losses for Burn Huola back in the day were staggering. Unfortunately, citadels have really put a hit on this type of gameplay for two reasons..
Do you mean the burn huola from July of 2014? If so a couple of years with out citadels has passed since then. It seems a bit harsh to blame citadels for so much stagnation that happened well before they were even mentioned by ccp.
Also I am not sure lockouts or any real strategic goal was the main reason for burn huola. It may have been for those who announced it but they don't speak for everyone who participated and it wasn't done as though it was a strategic goal. I mean it is one jump from high sec and both sides can base out of high sec despite the navies. It was also an event announced before it took place in order that everyone could purposely base there and fight. It is not strategic to announce your attack before you do it but it does tend to draw people in because they can prepare and bring ships. For me, and likely other pilots, burn huola had allot more to do with content than it did to drive someone out of a station. Even with citadels such an event could happen again. It might happen over the destruction of a citadel.
I think you should give citadels a bit more time before you decide they are nothing but negative. As someone who likes to roam around enemy space I think the number of citadels in caldari gallente space are great. Lots of people left faction war partly due to lockouts. Sure now years later those that didn't mind them or thought they were good is all that is left. But that doesn't mean lockouts are only a big positive. They reduce the number of roams into enemy space and thus cause stagnation in large areas of space.
Bottom line is that faction war needs help and has for years. The whole blobbing one system to try to take an objective is fine but rarely happened and really is null sec lite. Its just blobbing with fewer numbers and cheaper ships.
Faction war needs something to make it not just null sec lite but a different experience.
Also I am not sure I understand your proposal on changing lp payouts would end farming or rabbit plexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
268
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:14:45 -
[70] - Quote
Whichever one turned into a massive fight with all 4 militias and several neutral entities involved. I think roflpockets started it by posting publicly in this very forum calling the minnies out. Lockouts were indeed the reason for it, because why on earth would the minnies care about losing Huola if they could just dock in it afterwards anyways? I can assure you the docking rights are what gave the whole thing urgency and drew more people there to pvp.
To clarify, I don't think FW has stagnated because of citadels, but they are a huge issue right now. EU TZ, outside of Rus TZ, is effectively dead in Cal/Gal WZ. There is just no way for us to do anything. We can't do fleets to game timers on citadels because of the mechanics, and US TZ can't set up timers for us. There's no one to fight who doesn't totally outmatch us, and we've bled so many high-sp pilots to the local pirate corps because of lack of content, that even if the mechanics changed it would take us ages to get back to being competitive. At least before citadels you could have some sort of role for the off-prime TZ to play. Now it's next to impossible to get good content, that doesn't become some giant blobfest where half of EVE gets batphone to fight the other half over some piddly astrahus. One of the best things about FW occupancy pvp is the lack of bottlenecks, but citadels have created a huge one because of the ridiculous vuln timers.
FW has stagnated because people were bored with the mechanics. Once you've taken the WZ for bragging rights, what other reason is there to keep fighting, except to defend your home system if it comes under attack? We waited for years for the squids to get their act together, but now that they (kinda sorta) have, most of our veteran players are either AFK or moved on to greener pastures. Nothing about the FW mechanics made us keep fighting, it was the presence of enemies that we could fight (read: content). You can't fight farmers because, by definition, they're there to avoid pvp and make isk. Anyone who has tried chasing them around knows how soul-crushingly boring it is.
The tier system of rewards focuses on WZ control, but the WZ is mostly empty space (from an FW perspective) that gets swung by farmers. Hence why the only real reason you'd see tier shifts is to get the farmers on your side so that you could increase your LP rewards. But the LP rewards don't require pvp. Farmers specifically avoid pvp because they're trying to make as much isk as possible with as little risk as possible. By requiring someone to PVP for you to get rewards, it forces farmers to either put skin in the game, or stop farming. If you're some alt in a backwater system that no one cares about and may never get flipped, are you going to keep farming in the hope that you might one day see that LP? Or are you going to just quit because realistically no one will do anything about it? Right now, getting LP doesn't require conflict between the two sides. You don't get more LP for taking a system, in fact you actually lose out a bit because you push your farming grounds further away. What I'm proposing is a system that puts your LP rewards directly at odds with the enemy faction's LP rewards. By making it a zero-sum game for the best rewards, you encourage conflict. |
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 20:21:38 -
[71] - Quote
The key for a better fw in my opinion is fun and iskis.
In null sec sov, everybody understand what is a CTA , they are motivated because their systems are how they farm. And you don't have to plex a system 1 week to be able to switch the owner.
This doens't happens in fw, maybe this motivation could be inserted in factional, adding some kind of rating, combat complex, exploration, industry bonuses, POS production. in one word your rewards gets multiplied if land belongs to you as an alternate way to farm plexing.
So you'd have plexing, exploration, pve, etc.... but multiplied in some way and keeping that meeting point that the actual plex have for pvp.
I remember a few years ago, low sec had a lot of people farming and fighting, CCP balanced the rats and change the cloacking in the complexs ( I understand the reasons ) and low sec suddenly changed, people leave it, farmers and PVPers. The relation between pvpers and his farming is local, no farming no pvp, no pvp I'll move and farm in other place.
Honestly I don't think plex rabbits should be removed if the conquest system is not changed too, basically because is a lot boring for me to plex a system till is "conquerable" or deplexing it with almost no reward. When a system is near to be switched then people get motivated and the fun arise with a lot of organized and not organized combats.
I usually farm oplexing because I have combats there, if not I get a reward. When I get bored of plexing I switch to other activities, pve, exploration, those could be "multiplied too" to support my PVP.
Missions should be balanced is not funny to travel 19 jumps for a bit of repetitive PVE.
Citadels should be left outside of fw mechanics in my opinion, before they show up, it was quite common to setup a POS as base to conquer a "hot system". I think citadels create nice content as you can have an easy base for offensive/defensive PVP, and also add content when the other faction comes to destroy it.
Pirates add content, mercs add content, citadels add content. More content is good. Less content is oviously bad.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.23 21:40:55 -
[72] - Quote
Im not sure its possible to create mechanics that will capture players attention indefinitely.
I do think that FW mechanics are better than ever, though Thans post does have some QOL tweaks that would take some limitations and frustrations out of FW as well as possible reasons to fight other than station lock outs.
Lots of the mechanics proposed here, and just about everything cerain has ever proposed are IMO damaging to the natural forces in action on FW mechanics in low sec. No one likes farmers, and its easy to point fingers and blame ALL problems on something you dont like. Even if that is not at all the cause of all the problems you see. Its a common practice called demonising. Pretty sure you are on record as anti-station lock out, and pro flash upgrades for cash outs...
I am fundamentally anti-free intel, since that is against everything this game stands for. If intel is worth having, a player will make it. There is already far more than enough intel out there.
While the current mechanics may not be eternally compelling (very few games offer that), i do honestly see citadels as taking a lot of wind out of the sails of FW mechanics. As it stands, any meaningful objective, usually revolving around removing a citadel, devolves into a rinse repeat low sec power house brawl in tidi. Then its just a dice roll of bat phones. |
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
640
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 00:13:58 -
[73] - Quote
There is something to be said for changing something that has become stale.
There are many small QOL changes that can be made to make FW space even better, but still within the scope of what it currently is.
However, if they want FW to really thrive they need to deal with the citadel problem or rework FW from the ground up.
Semi-random off the cuff thought. Only let FW corps/alliances anchor citadels in FW space, and use NPCs to enforce it. Said NPCs could even come through and sweep enemy citadels out of systems that get flipped.
It might be a bit extreme, but it is fun to think about :)
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:04:18 -
[74] - Quote
Julius
I agree with just about everything you describe in your last post -even if we may disagree with the causes I think it is an important first step is to acknowledge what has in fact happened. Then we can look at and argue about causes
First let me say I do agree that even I had some motivation to have minmatar kicked out of Huola. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356851) Time flies doesn't it? So I will concede I was overly negative about that aspect of lockouts. But I do want to point out there are considerable downsides to lockouts. And I believe they are the cause of much of the problems you describe for faction war.
Let me start with what I think is the most important question to ask and you ask it:
Julius Foederatus wrote:Once you've taken the WZ for bragging rights, what other reason is there to keep fighting, except to defend your home system if it comes under attack?
Here I think there is only one answer. And that answer must be because it is allot of fun to fight for occupancy. If it is not fun to fight for occupancy then FW will fail. Since inferno CCP made fw sov about carrots and sticks. If you win occupancy you will get lots of isk! If you don't win occupancy you will get kicked out of stations! But the problem is anyone can join faction war on any side so you can just put alts in the winning side for the isk/carrots. And if fighting for sov is not fun you will quit if the sticks hurt too much. Become a pirate and pvp there. F---- station lockouts we get more targets anyway. This basic problem will never change. CCP has adjusted sticks and carrots for years. But its not going to work. It hasnGÇÖt in the past and it never will. Every time someone says this change to pay outs or this consequences for winning or losing will work people need to consider what I said above.
I am convinced that the only way to fix FW sov warfare is to make it incredibly fun to fight for sov. Not soul crushing where you are warping around after rabbit plexers. Or worse yet having your own alts rabbit plex. Many people do that and it is not only the best way to get lp and isk GÇô it is also the best way to get vp and sov for your faction. Its that latter part that hurts faction war so much. Many players are not going to spend their limited playing time doing that ****. That is why people are saying **** faction war. I donGÇÖt want to have to sit an alt in a plex so I can continue to dock. I just want to go out and get fights.
Can fighting for occupancy be fun? Hell yes it can. I have had so much fun fighting in and around plexes, IMO it is absolutely the best. Sure Huola was great but I also love the fights where I warp in and I see my militia fighting with the enemy or two and then I come and put things in our favor and maybe get some kills, but then more enemy or neutrals warp in and things start to go south and maybe I try to warp out or whatever. These sort of spur of the moment things that just happen in and around plexes are fantastic. For me personally these are more fun than the everyone anchor on the fc and wait in plex burn huola type fights. I am really convinced that if ccp focused the sov war to increase actual pvp in these plexes, faction war would take off again and likely would be a competitor with null sec for main high sp pvp characters. And I think it would provide more rewarding pvp gameplay than anything else in eve.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 17:07:49 -
[75] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:....There's no one to fight who doesn't totally outmatch us, and we've bled so many high-sp pilots to the local pirate corps because of lack of content, that even if the mechanics changed it would take us ages to get back to being competitive. GǪ GǪ.Nothing about the FW mechanics made us keep fighting, it was the presence of enemies that we could fight (read: content). You can't fight farmers because, by definition, they're there to avoid pvp and make isk. Anyone who has tried chasing them around knows how soul-crushingly boring it is.
The tier system of rewards focuses on WZ control, but the WZ is mostly empty space (from an FW perspective) that gets swung by farmers. ..
Ok let me give you my view on this. Station lockouts lead to people clustering in a few systems or front. Why? Because if you have a small corp that might have 5 guys online at a time you would go to sleep and find your system highly contested when you woke up. So you would have to put alts in to deplex all that damage. And this became an unbearable pain. So eventually all the corps just congregated to a few systems so that they could have round the clock defense and spread out the task of d-plexing.
The problem is when you put everyone in one or just a few hot spots then the game becomes more binary. Do I have the forces to fight here or not? Its usually a simple yes or no when everyone is grouped into a small space. If you do great but then the other side will likely dock up. Even burn huola (which had a many more variables and groups than most fw sov pushes) lasted only about a week before that binary calculation became clear that the Amarr would not win. Sure people tried to keep morale by saying we will win etc and we would occasionally piddle around. But it became pretty clear fairly quickly that we didnGÇÖt have the numbers and soon the fleets stopped. That is because it was one system. And when you are talking about one system the math canGÇÖt really be manipulated very well.
Now before station lockouts there were patches of minmatar corps spread all over the map. Before inferno I had ships thoughout the zone and the corp I was in had about 4 or 5 mini bases of operation through out fw space. So if one constellation was too hot you could roam up the pipe and see what a different group had to offer. We might get 8 guys in bcs and go roam around up to hror (deep in minmatar space) and we actually got quite a few fights in a variety of areas and with a variety of players. Now with lockouts you fly into enemy space you can easily get those bcs trapped because you canGÇÖt dock. It forces players to stay local. That is why so many sections of caldari gallente space are dead right now. That is also why there is stagnation. Citadels may help this issue. If corps can roam and have multiple bases throughout the warzone then there will be more opportunities to find good fights. Continuing to clump everyone into a small areas will continue this trend to stagnation.
So people who leave faction war can already do that. I have bases of ships thoughout low sec fw space. Its great. If I go roaming I am always just a few jumps from a reship. That was a considerable advantage to being a neutral pvper. That reason to become a neutral may be diminishing due to citadels. And generally things that bring pvpers back to faction war is good for fw.
Another draw to bring the pvpers back to faction war would be if they could see real time intel where plexes were being captured. Especially if they knew that the person capturing the plex knew he had to stay to fight or his time would rollback. ItGÇÖs not a mystery that allot of neutrals are in faction war space for the pvp. And its not really the faction war missions that bring that pvp. The fw plexes are a big draw. Having this intel would make finding fights much more efficient. Not only could you warp to plexes but when you enter a plex you would know you are notifying the enemy where you are! That would mean pvpers would not feel they are wasting time capturing a plex when they want pvp. They would likely get the pvp they want while winning sov for their faction. And that would be a large draw for allot of pvpers. It would also be allot of fun. That would probably the best thing for eve since the introduction of cruisers.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 20:19:09 -
[76] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Lots of the mechanics proposed here, and just about everything cerain has ever proposed are IMO damaging to the natural forces in action on FW mechanics in low sec. No one likes farmers, and its easy to point fingers and blame ALL problems on something you dont like. Even if that is not at all the cause of all the problems you see. Its a common practice called demonising. Pretty sure you are on record as anti-station lock out, and pro flash upgrades for cash outs...
I am not blaming farmers. Rabbit Plexers are playing the game rationally as per the design. The design that makes winning a war by running away is the problem. The two proposals I make fix the root problem.
Yes I gave the reasons for being anti-station lockout. Lots of players agree with me its bad. No they may not still be in fw any longer but if you look at the number of players who left faction war I am sure they are happy to no longer have to park an alt in a system so they don't get locked out. I am also sure many of the pvpers who left are happy to have several bases throughout the warzone. And I am sure many are happy they can go through all of low sec and not have to go five jumps before they can dock. These are all reasons for pvpers to leave faction war. I do agree there are plus sides to station lockouts but IMO they do not outweigh the negatives.
Finally I thought the change from the cashout system was done hastily and poorly. I think inferno which was the major change to faction war was only about 5 months in (may 2012 to october 2012) and the change was made because of people saying this thing happened once and it may happen again. I predicted the October 2012 change would lead to stagnation. And lots of people agree we have stagnation.
Now you say faction war is the best it has ever been right now. So maybe you disagree that stagnation has set in. But I can tell you when we had cashouts there was a hell of allot more buzz going on everywhere in eve about faction war. There was all sorts of talk and argument about strategies and many more attempts to try to get militias organized to take sov and boost the tiers. Now - well lets just say its hard to stay awake and talk about faction war strategy to take sov or up your tier. I don't think any sane person would say its more exciting to be in faction war today than back in May - October of 2012. Say what you want but the sov war then looked to be positively exciting compared to the current stagnation.
Would the cash out system have played itself out? Maybe. Did it have major/critical flaws that could be exploited - possibly but there were also possible fixes for those that could have been tried. But faction war almost instantly hit a brick wall of apathy after the changes made in October. No one cared about the tiers at all anymore. Caldari basically folded. (they still hadn't recoved enough to really send anyone to burn huola in 2014 almost 2 years later.)
But whatever that change is done and there is no going back. I don't claim to be perfect when it comes to predictions, but that was an example of faction war reacting to changes exactly how I predicted it would.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
269
|
Posted - 2017.02.24 22:18:48 -
[77] - Quote
The cashout system was awful. I'm glad it died, and long may it rest. I personally lead fleets where we had to bash around 20 systems in a single go, just to be able to cash out our LP at the time. And of course, the whole time you were doing such mindnumbingly awful gameplay, there were 100s of faceless alts sitting in Villore, asking if we were done yet, who I of course had never seen in fleets or out plexing any system of consequence. Seriously, it was an awful iteration and only someone who didn't have to do the heavy lifting of organizing cash outs could have any sort of fondness for it.
I get that you want FW to return to some casual PVP paradise where you can roam around and fight 8 guys in one area and move around if you get blobbed, but ask yourself this: if the old mechanics were so good before lock outs and LP for plexes, why the hell was FW almost completely dead?
EVE is really a crap game mechanically. It takes too long to get into the action, losing is too costly, there's a tremendous amount of anti-social behavior in the community, so where's the draw? The draw is in the challenge of the game, where combat has meaning and people will put up with that to accomplish something meaningful, that they couldn't do just by themselves. Thousands of EVE players flock to null sec to be a part of the game out there, despite the fact that the mechanics are nearly universally condemned as terrible. If your gameplay isn't meaningful and challenging, then you're just left with a game with **** mechanics, played by a bunch of sociopaths who take out their inability to talk to the opposite sex on poor newbies dipping their toes into low sec. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 02:00:28 -
[78] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:The cashout system was awful. I'm glad it died, and long may it rest. I personally lead fleets where we had to bash around 20 systems in a single go, just to be able to cash out our LP at the time.
Just to put some perspective on this. Cerain is a solo player who back then flew only incursus, kestrel and punisher, that has never been involved in organising a single hub bash let along a cash out. Its unfair to expect him to understand how things actually worked under the mechanics he enjoyed since he was a peripheral entity at best in the amarr matar warzone. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3605
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 08:46:07 -
[79] - Quote
something you guys should know about CCP: they are only listening to player feedback if they are actually working on something related to that feedback or if that thing is a game breaking issue.
you can't break the game with FW because LP shops are actually a isk sink, so trying to convince CCP that plexing is broken is one thing, the much harder step is to convince them that it is important enough that they actually schedule time to work on FW again.
and believe me we tried for 5+ years to push for timer rollbacks (or similar mechanics, although rollbacks are basically the least complex and most direct fix).
So far, all plexing related changes were really just quick and dirty fixes and did not address the underlying issue, only mitigated it. farmers speed tanked the rats -> ccp added the requirement to kill them farmers killed the rat then sat there with an empty ship with an alt -> ccp let the rats respawn farmers used stabs -> ccp increased the tank on the npcs so that damage mods were required to kill them (less slots for stabs - at least that was the goal lol) farmers cloaked in plexes as soon something was on dscan -> ccp gave the beacon a 30k volume to disable cloaks.
And none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient (some were even counter productive, e.g the cloak was the most expensive part of a farming ship and trapping a farmer with you on grid while you deplexed was kinda funny). Stabs, cloaks, unfit ships are not required to run away, they are just convenience. Timer rollbacks however address the issue directly and make running away LP inefficient. Suddenly stabs, cloaks and unfit ships wouldn't make sense anymore unless all you really want is to protect your ship (which is completely fine since you don't contest a system by doing that).
so good luck with that - my war is over ;) but i am willing rejoin FW if ccp changes their mind and finally decides to update it.
fake edit: btw there are like a million different variations of the "timer rollback" idea, it can be anything from donating lp at the beacon to reset the timer to slowly backwards ticking timers as soon you leave the influence of the beacon.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
276
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 19:22:49 -
[80] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:something you guys should know about CCP: they are only listening to player feedback if they are actually working on something related to that feedback or if that thing is a game breaking issue.
you can't break the game with FW because LP shops are actually a isk sink, so trying to convince CCP that plexing is broken is one thing, the much harder step is to convince them that it is important enough that they actually schedule time to work on FW again.
and believe me we tried for 5+ years to push for timer rollbacks (or similar mechanics, although rollbacks are basically the least complex and most direct fix).
So far, all plexing related changes were really just quick and dirty fixes and did not address the underlying issue, only mitigated it. farmers speed tanked the rats -> ccp added the requirement to kill them farmers killed the rat then sat there with an empty ship with an alt -> ccp let the rats respawn farmers used stabs -> ccp increased the tank on the npcs so that damage mods were required to kill them (less slots for stabs - at least that was the goal lol) farmers cloaked in plexes as soon something was on dscan -> ccp gave the beacon a 30k volume to disable cloaks.
And none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient (some were even counter productive, e.g the cloak was the most expensive part of a farming ship and trapping a farmer with you on grid while you deplexed was kinda funny). Stabs, cloaks, unfit ships are not required to run away, they are just convenience. Timer rollbacks however address the issue directly and make running away LP inefficient. Suddenly stabs, cloaks and unfit ships wouldn't make sense anymore unless all you really want is to protect your ship (which is completely fine since you don't contest a system by doing that).
so good luck with that - my war is over ;) but i am willing rejoin FW if ccp changes their mind and finally decides to update it.
fake edit: btw there are like a million different variations of the "timer rollback" idea, it can be anything from donating lp at the beacon to reset the timer to slowly backwards ticking timers as soon you leave the influence of the beacon.
I will be back moments after they convince Bienator. Coz I know then it will be worthwhile.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.25 21:40:56 -
[81] - Quote
Why not determine what is funny in FW and remove the rest.
We are here for PVP, fights are funny, plexes are where happens, and we need iskies to pay the ships. FW Sov should create funny content not boring content so:
1) Plexes give iskies, are good for PVP being a meeting point for fights, but sucks for sov changes. Remove sov influence on them.
3) Sov changes comes from shoting the Ihub in some way, maybe with attack windows like citadels or anything. As more system your faction have more lps you earn in plexing or missions. That will create big fight and big organized fleets.
2) Actual Tier system creates a big diference between winner and losers. Plexing, you got T2 rewards if the system belongs to your militia, and t3 if belongs the opposite one. So you are motivated to oplex. If your militia has a 70% of the sistems you got a 20% more in your lp payouts, so you have a positive motivation for switching systems, and a moderated motivation for defending them.
3) Stations are npc, so let everybody dock on them and have fun in the system. Citadels, free to place, just because they add up content fighting and defendind them.
With something like that, we'd have:
Have Fun fighting just because is funny, not because you gonna loose the station or you need it to pick missions, this is a game let have fun.
Have a decent income anytime your faction so you can support your PVP looses, and let new people grow without fear to loose ships.
You can dock anywhere if you need, and get camped there too :)
We would have a funny system to change sov, 2 or 3 battles in the Ihub and system changes, having battles there is 100 times more funny than plexing or deplexing a system only for sov.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 00:55:52 -
[82] - Quote
Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 01:25:34 -
[83] - Quote
What a POS thread starter, and I don't mean a player owned station. My plexing alts are raking it in at Tier 1, and Tier 1 is more than enough for any FW player to survive.
You only need three things you need for FW to work: 1. Isk incentive for players to stay in the warzone to make their isk - preferably in FW activities, and 2. Both sides need to think they can win so they both undock and fight. 3. Some sort of consequence for not defending your stuff when the other side decides to attack (i.e. create content).
Other suggestions are details to make life easier for pilots. Some of these details have been sitting out there for years such as: 1. Purple on purple shooting (Gallente/Minmatar killing Minmatar/Gallente, respectively) with no consequences. 2. Aggression timers in plexes 3. yada yada yada.
CCP just needs to put in the time to fix the remaining low hanging fruit, and we'll deal with the rest.
FW is what you put into it. If you undock and fight, then you'll get content. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 01:26:54 -
[84] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:What a POS thread starter, and I don't mean a player owned station. My plexing alts are raking it in at Tier 1, and Tier 1 is more than enough for any FW player to survive.
You only need three things you need for FW to work: 1. Isk incentive for players to stay in the warzone to make their isk - preferably in FW activities, and 2. Both sides need to think they can win so they both undock and fight. 3. Some sort of consequence for not defending your stuff when the other side decides to attack (i.e. create content).
Other suggestions are details to make life easier for pilots. Some of these details have been sitting out there for years such as: 1. Purple on purple shooting (Gallente/Minmatar killing Minmatar/Gallente, respectively) with no consequences. 2. Aggression timers in plexes 3. yada yada yada.
CCP just needs to put in the time to fix the remaining low hanging fruit, and we'll deal with the rest. If people want to change the details of FW, then great. Every change leads to the losing side thinking they can win - which means more content which is a good thing.
FW is what you put into it. If you undock and fight, then you'll get content. If not, you're a loser who should go to null sec.
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Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 03:01:37 -
[85] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:Suitonia is running for CSM this year and I beleive he is a strong candidate.
Then you are wrong.
This particular one, is not a content creator as he names himself. He don't create nor organize anything, he just stream as he play game.
Is an exploit user and should be banned. Exploit=abuse of game mechanic to gain personal advantage, in way undersigned by developers. And his align under 2 seconds, where without gang ready noone can make him to fight.
And after all, he is coward, who run from fair fights and try to drop of ratting or mining ships. Purpose ships are used on there fields, and that one, reject to match with other willing to interact in player vs player combat, while after entering system, he drop at anomaly straight, where he will have upper hand always. |
Aves Asio
47
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 09:54:30 -
[86] - Quote
Bienator for CSM |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 16:18:24 -
[87] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want.
That poeple that wait for the ping are the people that doens't create any content, you are in a plex with a incursus to have a fight and they come with two 20k ehp worms to kill you just to protect the system not to have a fight, is this the kind of content we want?
We can't do nothing with people docked in stations waiting for the ping, they doesn't count in my oppinion.
Pleexes would be still there but for isk and fights but not sov, so rabbit plexers doesn't matter anymore, defending a plex is isk rewarding so this would be the motivation. Now you do a a mission run in t4 and leave your char in the station because the system is at 5%, that wouldn't happen anymore, do you want iskies, undock and fight.
The worst part of plexing is not defending them fighting, is stay there 15min for 50k isk. I see a lot of people not in factional going to plexes for fights, why is not going to work without sov on them it is already happening.
Yes to switch the system it is already needed a blob, so it would be funnier than just plexing in a big fleet for days. Or stay a couple of hours bored per day because the opposite faction has not numbers to fight in that time. Or simply wait till you rabbit plexers raise the system conq level to 90%.
I heard a lot of time people leaving factional because is boring playing the plex sov game, a pain to loose your sytem and to have more targets for fights. So why not change what is boring or bad.
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
715
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 06:07:28 -
[88] - Quote
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want. That poeple that wait for the ping are the people that doens't create any content, you are in a plex with a incursus to have a fight and they come with two 20k ehp worms to kill you just to protect the system not to have a fight, is this the kind of content we want? We can't do nothing with people docked in stations waiting for the ping, they doesn't count in my oppinion. Pleexes would be still there but for isk and fights but not sov, so rabbit plexers doesn't matter anymore, defending a plex is isk rewarding so this would be the motivation. Now you do a a mission run in t4 and leave your char in the station because the system is at 5%, that wouldn't happen anymore, do you want iskies, undock and fight. The worst part of plexing is not defending them fighting, is stay there 15min for 50k isk. I see a lot of people not in factional going to plexes for fights, why is not going to work without sov on them it is already happening. Yes to switch the system it is already needed a blob, so it would be funnier than just plexing in a big fleet for days. Or stay a couple of hours bored per day because the opposite faction has not numbers to fight in that time. Or simply wait till you rabbit plexers raise the system conq level to 90%. I heard a lot of time people leaving factional because is boring playing the plex sov game, a pain to loose your sytem and to have more targets for fights. So why not change what is boring or bad.
huh?!
i joined FW because of FW mechanics not because i want to earn isk.
i like the system flipping and station lock-outs, in all honestly i want even more penalties/gain in losing and winning systems.
remove that aspect or the mechanic involving it with plex and you wont see me in any plex.
Just Add Water
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Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
793
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 08:06:12 -
[89] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Boozbaz wrote:Suitonia is running for CSM this year and I beleive he is a strong candidate. Then you are wrong. This particular one, is not a content creator as he names himself. He don't create nor organize anything, he just stream as he play game. Is an exploit user and should be banned. Exploit=abuse of game mechanic to gain personal advantage, in way undersigned by developers. And his align under 2 seconds, where without gang ready noone can make him to fight. And after all, he is coward, who run from fair fights and try to drop of ratting or mining ships. Purpose ships are used on there fields, and that one, reject to match with other willing to interact in player vs player combat, while after entering system, he drop at anomaly straight, where he will have upper hand always.
wat
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 12:44:16 -
[90] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want. That poeple that wait for the ping are the people that doens't create any content, you are in a plex with a incursus to have a fight and they come with two 20k ehp worms to kill you just to protect the system not to have a fight, is this the kind of content we want? We can't do nothing with people docked in stations waiting for the ping, they doesn't count in my oppinion. Pleexes would be still there but for isk and fights but not sov, so rabbit plexers doesn't matter anymore, defending a plex is isk rewarding so this would be the motivation. Now you do a a mission run in t4 and leave your char in the station because the system is at 5%, that wouldn't happen anymore, do you want iskies, undock and fight. The worst part of plexing is not defending them fighting, is stay there 15min for 50k isk. I see a lot of people not in factional going to plexes for fights, why is not going to work without sov on them it is already happening. Yes to switch the system it is already needed a blob, so it would be funnier than just plexing in a big fleet for days. Or stay a couple of hours bored per day because the opposite faction has not numbers to fight in that time. Or simply wait till you rabbit plexers raise the system conq level to 90%. I heard a lot of time people leaving factional because is boring playing the plex sov game, a pain to loose your sytem and to have more targets for fights. So why not change what is boring or bad. huh?! i joined FW because of FW mechanics not because i want to earn isk. i like the system flipping and station lock-outs, in all honestly i want even more penalties/gain in losing and winning systems. remove that aspect or the mechanic involving it with plex and you wont see me in any plex.
Hah, Heh, Hih, Hoh, Huh... :-P
Well everybody has differents reasons to be in factional, personally I'm just by pvp reasons.
Once you are inside you need iskis so this is a motivation, missions generate very little content, plexes as conquest system has the drawbacks of the rabbits having more weight in the results than the people that really fight and generate content, even you are fighting just for fun.
Maybe you have a better proponsal than mine.
Honestly what I saw from people around me is that the current pennalties are the reason to make people leave factional. I saw people with 2b - 3b in ships in the hangar having to leave the system for 3 monthes just because there was not support to defend the system. They simply leave factional becoming pirates. It is too much for many people.
More pennalties will make people change of faction or simply to leave factional puting a farmer char where the tier is higher.
I honestly don't mind if you don't go to the plexes :-P.
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
736
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 12:49:19 -
[91] - Quote
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want. That poeple that wait for the ping are the people that doens't create any content, you are in a plex with a incursus to have a fight and they come with two 20k ehp worms to kill you just to protect the system not to have a fight, is this the kind of content we want? We can't do nothing with people docked in stations waiting for the ping, they doesn't count in my oppinion. Pleexes would be still there but for isk and fights but not sov, so rabbit plexers doesn't matter anymore, defending a plex is isk rewarding so this would be the motivation. Now you do a a mission run in t4 and leave your char in the station because the system is at 5%, that wouldn't happen anymore, do you want iskies, undock and fight. The worst part of plexing is not defending them fighting, is stay there 15min for 50k isk. I see a lot of people not in factional going to plexes for fights, why is not going to work without sov on them it is already happening. Yes to switch the system it is already needed a blob, so it would be funnier than just plexing in a big fleet for days. Or stay a couple of hours bored per day because the opposite faction has not numbers to fight in that time. Or simply wait till you rabbit plexers raise the system conq level to 90%. I heard a lot of time people leaving factional because is boring playing the plex sov game, a pain to loose your sytem and to have more targets for fights. So why not change what is boring or bad. huh?! i joined FW because of FW mechanics not because i want to earn isk. i like the system flipping and station lock-outs, in all honestly i want even more penalties/gain in losing and winning systems. remove that aspect or the mechanic involving it with plex and you wont see me in any plex. Hah, Heh, Hih, Hoh, Huh... :-P Well everybody has differents reasons to be in factional, personally I'm just by pvp reasons. Once you are inside you need iskis so this is a motivation, missions generate very little content, plexes as conquest system has the drawbacks of the rabbits having more weight in the results than the people that really fight and generate content, even you are fighting just for fun. Maybe you have a better proponsal than mine. Honestly what I saw from people around me is that the current pennalties are the reason to make people leave factional. I saw people with 2b - 3b in ships in the hangar having to leave the system for 3 monthes just because there was not support to defend the system. They simply leave factional becoming pirates. It is too much for many people. More pennalties will make people change of faction or simply to leave factional puting a farmer char where the tier is higher. I honestly don't mind if you don't go to the plexes :-P.
if you are in for pvp and making money, why not be a full pirate instead?
SRP to blinged ships, 'high end' elite pvp, the works.
why not ask your CEO, XG what FW is all about?
Just Add Water
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
3
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 13:31:59 -
[92] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Attack windows and timers encourages and rewards blobs n cheese.
The way plexes effect occupancy encourages and rewards people who log in and undock.
Remove the occupancy from plexes and ignoring that guy there becomes an option and the whole conflict driver is removed.
We had a system where you could ignore people in plexes. People stayed docked, ignored the targets and waited for the ping for that nights drakes n canes fleet.
Activity is rewarded in fw that has an always on occupancy system. No waiting for timers, just get out there and do what you can on whatever scale you want. That poeple that wait for the ping are the people that doens't create any content, you are in a plex with a incursus to have a fight and they come with two 20k ehp worms to kill you just to protect the system not to have a fight, is this the kind of content we want? We can't do nothing with people docked in stations waiting for the ping, they doesn't count in my oppinion. Pleexes would be still there but for isk and fights but not sov, so rabbit plexers doesn't matter anymore, defending a plex is isk rewarding so this would be the motivation. Now you do a a mission run in t4 and leave your char in the station because the system is at 5%, that wouldn't happen anymore, do you want iskies, undock and fight. The worst part of plexing is not defending them fighting, is stay there 15min for 50k isk. I see a lot of people not in factional going to plexes for fights, why is not going to work without sov on them it is already happening. Yes to switch the system it is already needed a blob, so it would be funnier than just plexing in a big fleet for days. Or stay a couple of hours bored per day because the opposite faction has not numbers to fight in that time. Or simply wait till you rabbit plexers raise the system conq level to 90%. I heard a lot of time people leaving factional because is boring playing the plex sov game, a pain to loose your sytem and to have more targets for fights. So why not change what is boring or bad. huh?! i joined FW because of FW mechanics not because i want to earn isk. i like the system flipping and station lock-outs, in all honestly i want even more penalties/gain in losing and winning systems. remove that aspect or the mechanic involving it with plex and you wont see me in any plex. Hah, Heh, Hih, Hoh, Huh... :-P Well everybody has differents reasons to be in factional, personally I'm just by pvp reasons. Once you are inside you need iskis so this is a motivation, missions generate very little content, plexes as conquest system has the drawbacks of the rabbits having more weight in the results than the people that really fight and generate content, even you are fighting just for fun. Maybe you have a better proponsal than mine. Honestly what I saw from people around me is that the current pennalties are the reason to make people leave factional. I saw people with 2b - 3b in ships in the hangar having to leave the system for 3 monthes just because there was not support to defend the system. They simply leave factional becoming pirates. It is too much for many people. More pennalties will make people change of faction or simply to leave factional puting a farmer char where the tier is higher. I honestly don't mind if you don't go to the plexes :-P. if you are in for pvp and making money, why not be a full pirate instead? SRP to blinged ships, 'high end' elite pvp, the works. why not ask your CEO, XG what FW is all about?
I've been already a pirate, and I like factional, not all.
Why don't say something constructive instead of simply ignoring my arguments, or telling me to leave the factional.
Are those your best arguments? "get out be pirate", "I will not go to the plexes", "ask your CEO".
Go yourselve to null sec sov, there are big punishements and big rewards as you like.
I'd like to have factional simliar as it was at 2014 IN CONTENT, people everywhere, fights everywhere, all kind of fights not only what you like or I like. Iskies for everybody to explode expensive ships. And yes the winners must have more but not too much more, otherwise the fun is over.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 14:29:23 -
[93] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:The cashout system was awful. I'm glad it died, and long may it rest. I personally lead fleets where we had to bash around 20 systems in a single go, just to be able to cash out our LP at the time. And of course, the whole time you were doing such mindnumbingly awful gameplay, there were 100s of faceless alts sitting in Villore, asking if we were done yet, who I of course had never seen in fleets or out plexing any system of consequence. Seriously, it was an awful iteration and only someone who didn't have to do the heavy lifting of organizing cash outs could have any sort of fondness for it..
Ok I did not claim the time of cashouts had no issues. I think they could have addressed the issue by having a grace period before new plexes spawned after it was flipped the first time. Say a week or 2. This would have given more time to allow the side doing the cashout to bash the necessary bunkers. They also could have done other things if the bunker bashing was a real problem. I could go on with different ideas, but whatever its really no longer relevant the change was pushed through and there is no going back.
And there were other potential problems (and many upsides eg., it punished joining the side with the highest tier at the time) that had to be addressed no doubt. But I think you would agree faction war could not be called stagnant between 5/12 and 10/12 before the change. FW was more alive than at any other time that I was involved in it - which would be probably about mid 2009. I hope we can both agree fw is in fact more stagnant now.
Julius Foederatus wrote: I get that you want FW to return to some casual PVP paradise where you can roam around and fight 8 guys in one area and move around if you get blobbed, but ask yourself this: if the old mechanics were so good before lock outs and LP for plexes, why the hell was FW almost completely dead? .
Your post makes it sound like you are reading GÇ£Crosi on CearainGÇ¥ instead of Cearain. I canGÇÖt say I blame you because it seems every time I try to post my ideas for faction war he cant help but come in and misrepresent and oversimplify me and my views.
I never wrote that I wanted to get rid of lp for plexing. (I even said it would be fine before inferno changes were even talked about) I never said fw was fixed before inferno.
I dont think it was good before inferno. It was always the case that you could gain the most sov by rabbit plexing. Always. There were no good old days where that was not the case. The idea for real time intel is not my idea. It was posted in a thread by someone responding to ank saying she plexed enough in one week to gain the highest fw rank for amarr without engaging in any pvp. This was long before inferno and any lp for plexing. (and really has absolutely nothing to do with whether we get lp or not) I donGÇÖt even think I was playing eve when this problem was identified and the fix proposed. I hoped the intel fix as well as timer rollbacks (again not my idea, was it yours? Or was it minuteman kirks?) would come with inferno. And I have been pushing for them both for as long as I have been aware of them.
I am not against lp for plexing. I am not against farming missions. I just think that gaining faction war sov should be through pvp - not rabbit plexing. You shouldn't win a sovereignty war by runnign away all the time. IMO pvp is fun and therefore making sov pvp instead of farmville will make it more fun.
FW was dead before inferno because it had many of the same problems it has now. CCP just threw isk at FW which did attract pilots and therefore increased kills but it really didnGÇÖt make the underlying sov game any fun. Throwing isk isnGÇÖt going ot get more players into eve. Because unless eve has fun activities to use the isk (e.g., fun wars) isk really is useless.
Julius Foederatus wrote: EVE is really a crap game mechanically. It takes too long to get into the action, losing is too costly, there's a tremendous amount of anti-social behavior in the community, so where's the draw? The draw is in the challenge of the game, where combat has meaning and people will put up with that to accomplish something meaningful, that they couldn't do just by themselves. Thousands of EVE players flock to null sec to be a part of the game out there, despite the fact that the mechanics are nearly universally condemned as terrible. If your gameplay isn't meaningful and challenging, then you're just left with a game with **** mechanics, played by a bunch of sociopaths who take out their inability to talk to the opposite sex on poor newbies dipping their toes into low sec.
I think eve is allot of things to allot of people. For me eve is a dream come true but that is another story. But I do agree with people wanting to accomplish something meaningful. I think we see that many players are saying if you win faction war sov by always running away then winning is not really meaningful for them.
That is what so many players have been saying for years. ItGÇÖs long overdue that ccp fix the mechanics so you donGÇÖt win this war by multibooting plexing alts and just running away at the first sign of trouble. They already said they would put the fixes in (better intel tools and rollbacks) we as players just need to keep them honest. It would be great if a csm just asked about these promises and raised the issue with ccp. Why have we not heard about these promises for years?
I know Bienator II has been pushing csm and ccp for a response. But sadly the fw community seems to have too many leaders telling us everything is fine with faction war. And maybe it is GÇ£fineGÇ¥ for those 50 players who care about sov. But is it anywhere close to where it could and should be?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.27 14:48:22 -
[94] - Quote
Raven Ship wrote:Boozbaz wrote:Suitonia is running for CSM this year and I beleive he is a strong candidate. Then you are wrong. This particular one, is not a content creator as he names himself. He don't create nor organize anything, he just stream as he play game. Is an exploit user and should be banned. Exploit=abuse of game mechanic to gain personal advantage, in way undersigned by developers. And his align under 2 seconds, where without gang ready noone can make him to fight. And after all, he is coward, who run from fair fights and try to drop of ratting or mining ships. Purpose ships are used on there fields, and that one, reject to match with other willing to interact in player vs player combat, while after entering system, he drop at anomaly straight, where he will have upper hand always.
Suitonia has done allot of work to make this game better. He has demonstrated he is willing to look at nitty gritty mechanics of the game in order to find the best solutions or at least inform ccp so they can find solutions. You can see this, for example, in his work on ogb and on t3ds.
I don't agree with everything he said about faction war either. (I do like some like the 1v1v1v1) But he is posting his ideas so that people can discuss them! FFS that is the first step so we shouldn't crucify him just because we disagree with him. He is also a proponent of the types of pvp faction can bring about.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
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Posted - 2017.02.27 14:55:02 -
[95] - Quote
Cearain wrote: With an intel tool that gives you real time information about plexes being captured .
came here for this wasnt dissapointed man you still banging that drum
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
737
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Posted - 2017.02.27 16:41:19 -
[96] - Quote
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:
I've been already a pirate, and I like factional, not all.
Why don't say something constructive instead of simply ignoring my arguments, or telling me to leave the factional.
Are those your best arguments? "get out be pirate", "I will not go to the plexes", "ask your CEO".
Go yourselve to null sec sov, there are big punishements and big rewards as you like.
I'd like to have factional simliar as it was at 2014 IN CONTENT, people everywhere, fights everywhere, all kind of fights not only what you like or I like. Iskies for everybody to explode expensive ships. And yes the winners must have more but not too much more, otherwise the fun is over.
huh? you are the one hostile, dude.
im just stating what i find enjoyable same as you.
Just Add Water
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
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Posted - 2017.02.27 17:46:54 -
[97] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:if you are in for pvp and making money, why not be a full pirate instead? SRP to blinged ships, 'high end' elite pvp, the works. why not ask your CEO, XG what FW is all about? Don't worry about my corp. Our guys, Perkutor included, are doing great. JUSTK has been among the leaders in VP/day and Kills/day for quite a while. Amazing how that works... kills and VP being related and all that. It's as if the FW plexing mechanic encourages fights, or something... |
Jonas Staal
Hull Breach. Reverberation Project
72
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 17:55:30 -
[98] - Quote
I guess a good way to start is to make earning LP for completing plexes impossible when you're ship is equiped with warp stablizers.
1) Your LP value increases 2) You don't have to waste time trying to catch stabbed pilots. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.27 17:59:03 -
[99] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: With an intel tool that gives you real time information about plexes being captured .
came here for this wasnt dissapointed man you still banging that drum
I aim to please.
It has only been about 7 years. And CCP did promise this change would happen soon about 3 years ago. So I think we only need to wait about another 18 more months.
I think rollbacks and intel tools should appear shortly before the great pumpkin appears in 2018. Sometimes waiting for ccp makes me feel a bit like linus waiting on the great pumpkin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2H0TfvNU3w
X Gallentius wrote: Don't worry about my corp. Our guys, Perkutor included, are doing great. JUSTK has been among the leaders in VP/day and Kills/day for quite a while. Amazing how that works... kills and VP being related and all that. It's as if the FW plexing mechanic encourages fights, or something...
The top vp gainers for yesterday are not in your corp.
https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx
1. Val Huunuras 2. Alexandra Ran 3. Liana Lemac
Feel free to check out their killboards so you can find out how to really win sov for your faction.
This is what needs to change for faction war before anyone will think fw sov is "meaningful".
edit:
and in case anyone thinks that may have been a fluke for one day check out the killboards for the top vp gainers for last week:
1) Alexandra Ran 2) Ten TenTim 3) Mori Yotosala
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 18:06:30 -
[100] - Quote
Jonas Staal wrote:I guess a good way to start is to make earning LP for completing plexes impossible when you're ship is equiped with warp stablizers.
1) Your LP value increases 2) You don't have to waste time trying to catch stabbed pilots. #MaulusNavyIssue
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
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Posted - 2017.02.27 18:38:52 -
[101] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I never wrote that I wanted to get rid of lp for plexing. (I even said it would be fine before inferno changes were even talked about) I never said fw was fixed before inferno.
I also never said that you wanted to get rid of LP for plexing. Perhaps you should also read 'crosi on cerain', Instead of misrepresenting every post anyone ever makes to shoot down your nieve and/or stupid ideas, as though it completely supports your opinion even though it clearly doesnt.
You have never explained how free intel moves us from a state where people dont want to chase evasion farmers around, to a state where people get a notification about every single farmer and non farmer running a plex and they jump to it and make 3 jumps to some dead end system to chase a farmer around as though no one knew there was likely a farmer in iwisoda or teimo.
Not sure what the change would be in peractical terms or where the motivation for pvpers to change their behaviour comes from.
The hunt is 90% of the game in FW imo. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.27 21:52:38 -
[102] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: You have never explained how free intel moves us from a state where people dont want to chase evasion farmers around, to a state where people get a notification about every single farmer and non farmer running a plex and they jump to it and make 3 jumps to some dead end system to chase a farmer around as though no one knew there was likely a farmer in iwisoda or teimo.
Not sure what the change would be in peractical terms or where the motivation for pvpers to change their behaviour comes from.
Ok so I never said the intel had to be free. But again I am sure you will keep on saying "free intel free intel free intel" everytime you respond to my post. The intel can be provided as part of the price for being in the militia, it can be free to everyone, or you might have to pay for it in isk or lp I don't really care. If some people complain that it is "free" intel I am willing to compromise. I have said this before but I realize it will not stop you from constantly saying "free intel."
You have in the past suggested that I wish we would go back to pre- inferno. But I am not interested arguing about this as it derails the conversation. Let me address the question concern you raise above.
Few people like chasing rabbits and that won't change. Intel will make it easier to defend a cluster of systems than it is now from rabbits. That means rabbits will have a harder time completing plexes. With real time intel combined with a rollback system (which will also make rabbit plexing less efficient) the effectiveness of rabbit plexers will be so severely decreased we likely won't have any more rabbits at all.
Why are there less rabbits in systems busy with enemies? It is not because people in those systems enjoy chasing rabbits. Its because the rabbits can't hide and plex. People will know they are there and keep disturbing them. Accordingly they will not be efficient at what they want to do whether that is gaining vp or lp. If we had real time intel then there would be no hiding at all. This means rabbit plexers would become relatively less efficient than those who are willing to stay and fight. Lots of time the rabbit will warp off a few systems away if you keep chasing them. In other words they want you to lose their trail. This form of hide and seek plexing will end.
I realize you have little interest in actually gaining sov outside of your base system or just a few others. But there are people - myself included who would love to play the game and gain as much sov for my faction as I can when I play (or prevent the enemy from gaining sov) but not have to sacrifice pvp or turn the game into multiboxing rabbit plexing alts.
So what will will notifications mean for me and others like me? It would mean that I can reasonably cover a cluster of about 7 systems and make sure no one is farming them. This obviously would work well with rollbacks. But if we have rollbacks without the real time intel we still might have this hide and seek plexing. Its unclear to me whether rollbacks alone will end rabbit plexing. But I am sure that the combination of real time intel combined with a rollback system can end it or at least make it so that those pilots getting the most vp per day or week have killboards that show they had to pvp in order to get that vp.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The hunt is 90% of the game in FW imo.
Lots of people think war is different than hunting and the game should understand that. But this goes with your general defense of rabbit plexers:
Crosi Wesdo wrote: 'Fixing farmers' is not really any different to 'Make more space empty'.
I couldn't disagree more. If we ended farming through rollbacks and realtime intel then pvpers could realistically start to care about gaining space throughout the warzone. It wouldn't be a hopeless cause and they wouldn't have to trade off getting allot of pvp with getting the most vp they could. Those back systems would fill up and you would see a huge increase in content there.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 22:13:20 -
[103] - Quote
So you have always suggested intel is free, but now you suggest a price for the intel it invalidates my criticism? By free, i mean free of effort, free of undocking. No good content came from being docked.
I have never said you wanted to go back to pre inferno. Though i have said that you argued the main problems with inferno, such as the cash out meta were in fact desirable and should be brought back.
Ill tell you how not to derail a thread. Dont just lie about what people have said. Then they wont need to correct you. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 22:30:36 -
[104] - Quote
+1 It's amazing how members of JUSTK have the best insight into FW.
CCP should work on these suggestions, especially the low hanging fruit.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.
Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful system upgrades Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts. Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers). Citadel problem.
Here's another great observation wrt how isk/lp balances out tier levels.
Cire Xinehp wrote:Being in a lower tier pushes the LP value up for the "Losing side" because there is less LP coming in.
At least that is how I've seen things to work, so being in a lower tier and earning less LP isn't a punishment because it's worth more.
As the Gal Mil LP value climbs the farmers etc will switch sides to try and cash in on the additional value because the Caldari LP value has dropped.
From reading what has been suggested etc it seems this is being missed and it really does need to be taken into account.
-Cash out before/during the push when the value has spiked
Most of us get it - the ones who are actually in FW.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:dual timers seems like a more elegant solution than timer rollbacks.
The first, most important part is that CCP put some dev time into FW.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Part of the issue we seem to run into on a semi-regular basis is how FW is currently just not dealt with or considered very much on the CCP side for whatever the reason. I'm not sure Suitonia or any other CSM rep by themselves will be able to change that, but it would be interesting to hear how they might go about it.
PvP'ers understand that more content is good, whether it's from pirates or pvp. They also understand that different people enter FW for different reasons. The fun part is aligning all these different motivations towards a common goal. Farmers, pvpers, FW system control honks, all have a part to play in FW.
Perkutor Jakuard wrote: Pirates add content, mercs add content, citadels add content. More content is good. Less content is oviously bad. . . . Well everybody has differents reasons to be in factional, personally I'm just by pvp reasons.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.27 22:41:11 -
[105] - Quote
Cearain wrote:The top vp gainers for yesterday are not in your corp.
Why don't you go down a couple rows and look at the corp stats?
My corp is among the leaders in VP/day and FW kills/day, and they mainly use plexes to get all the FW pvp they want.
You, OTOH, are not even enrolled in FW. But please feel free to spurge all over these FW threads with the same nonsense you've been spurging for years.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 00:45:33 -
[106] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:The top vp gainers for yesterday are not in your corp. Why don't you go down a couple rows and look at the corp stats? My corp is among the leaders in VP/day and FW kills/day, and they mainly use plexes to get all the FW pvp they want. You, OTOH, are not even enrolled in FW. But please feel free to spurge all over these FW threads with the same nonsense you've been spurging for years.
If you want to gain vp you rabbit plex. You know this as well as I do. That is why you have plexing alts. That is why the top vp gainers are these guys for the week who fly empty or stabbed ships.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6852999#post6852999
I am not sure why anyone would put their plex alts in a pvp corp. Do you have your plexing alts in your pvp corp?
But ok lets look at the top corps over the last week for vp and kills. Your corp has about 8% of the vp of the FDU. (FDU =86,000 vp Justified Chaos has 7220 vp) So if getting VP is the way to kills we should fully expect FDU to have about 10xs as many kills right? Instead they only have 429 kills and your corp has 222 kills on the week. Now how many plexes do you have to capture to get 86,000 vp? Think about that. FDU has significantly more vp than the next top five player corps combined from all of the factions not just gallente! Thats allot of rabbit plexing.
Now go ahead and look at the fdu's killboard and see how many of those actual pilots getting those 429 kills are on the list for top vp. So ZKill shows 10 most active pilots down to pilots that have about 13 kills. And the VP gained for the week lists 100 pilots. I do not see a single pilot in the kill top 10 for the week from the fdu making it as even one of the top 100 vp gainers. (If I missed one let me know.)
There are 2 player corps with more kills than your corp. Neither of them are listed as one of the top vp gainers for the week. In fact, other than your corp, none of the player corps that are top vp gainers are top killers. Also *none* of the top killers are top vp gainers. (again other than your corp). So it seems that your corp is more the exception than the rule. Either you want pvp or you want to gain sov.
Anyone who looks at the actual data even remotely objectively will see that the efficient way to plex is to avoid combat.
As for me not being in faction war, I am talking about faction war sov in particular. Most of the pvp corps in faction war have no more to do with faction war sov than I do. If you are only going to listen to people who are really participating in faction war sov across the map then you will be talking with 90% rabbit plexers. (Actually it will likely be higher than that when we add the rabbits from the other npc fw corps. I would not be surprised if 95% of the plexes captured are captured by rabbit plexers.)
I don't see how you can look at this overwhelmingly clear data and say fw sov mechanics are fine.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 01:16:31 -
[107] - Quote
Cearain wrote:[ If you want to gain vp you rabbit plex. You know this as well as I do. That is why you have plexing alts. That is why the top vp gainers are these guys for the week who fly empty or stabbed ships. . . .
But ok lets look at the top corps over the last week for vp and kills. Your corp has about 8% of the vp of the FDU. (FDU =86,000 vp Justified Chaos has 7220 vp) So if getting VP is the way to kills we should fully expect FDU to have about 10xs as many kills right? Instead they only have 429 kills and your corp has 222 kills on the week. Now how many plexes do you have to capture to get 86,000 vp? Think about that. FDU has significantly more vp than the next top five player corps combined from all of the factions not just gallente! Thats allot of rabbit plexing.
So what? Farmers aren't interested in pvp. Players that ARE interested in PVP know how to get fights from FW plexes all the time.
Quote: Now go ahead and look at the fdu's killboard and see how many of those actual pilots getting those 429 kills are on the list for top vp. So ZKill shows 10 most active pilots down to pilots that have about 13 kills. And the VP gained for the week lists 100 pilots. I do not see a single pilot in the kill top 10 for the week from the fdu making it as even one of the top 100 vp gainers. (If I missed one let me know.)
Why are you so concerned about how others spend their time in FW?
Quote: There are 2 player corps with more kills than your corp. Neither of them are listed as one of the top vp gainers for the week. In fact, other than your corp, none of the player corps that are top vp gainers are top killers. Also *none* of the top killers are top vp gainers. (again other than your corp). So it seems that your corp is more the exception than the rule. Either you want pvp or you want to gain sov.
Again, so what? They are interested in other things. That's fine.
Quote: As for me not being in faction war, I am talking about faction war sov in particular.
Most of the pvp corps in faction war have no more to do with faction war sov than I do. If you are only going to listen to people who are really participating in faction war sov across the map then you will be talking with 90% rabbit plexers. (Actually it will likely be higher than that when we add the rabbits from the other npc fw corps. I would not be surprised if 95% of the plexes captured are captured by rabbit plexers.)
It gets tiring when CSM candidates like Suitonia and players such as yourself who don't participate offer up suggestions and platforms for improving FW. You don't know enough about it to have a valid, informed, position.
In particular, so what? What others do in FW is their business. FW plexes are a great mechanic for pvp, and the isk provided by them allows FW players to stay in theater where they can both fight and earn isk at the same time (rather than leaving theater to make isk).
Quote: I don't see how you can look at this overwhelmingly clear data and say fw sov mechanics are fine.
In the big picture, FW Sov mechanics are just an excuse to pvp. The thing that makes system control in FW important is e-peen.
And we have found time and again that pushing a high e-peen system leads to massive levels of pvp.
We have also found time and again that most players aren't interested in chasing farmers around even if they know where the farmers are.
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
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Posted - 2017.02.28 02:25:30 -
[108] - Quote
Clap Clap Clap.
It's amazing of how well X G, explained and knows what is the beuty of fw. :)
I don't understand how much attention are we puting in Cearain, which is not even enrolled in FW.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 03:14:22 -
[109] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:[ If you want to gain vp you rabbit plex. You know this as well as I do. That is why you have plexing alts. That is why the top vp gainers are these guys for the week who fly empty or stabbed ships. . . .
But ok lets look at the top corps over the last week for vp and kills. Your corp has about 8% of the vp of the FDU. (FDU =86,000 vp Justified Chaos has 7220 vp) So if getting VP is the way to kills we should fully expect FDU to have about 10xs as many kills right? Instead they only have 429 kills and your corp has 222 kills on the week. Now how many plexes do you have to capture to get 86,000 vp? Think about that. FDU has significantly more vp than the next top five player corps combined from all of the factions not just gallente! Thats allot of rabbit plexing.
So what? Farmers aren't interested in pvp. Players that ARE interested in PVP know how to get fights from FW plexes all the time.
So you tell me to look at the corps and I do. The data shows you claim that vp and pvp are positively correllated is absolutely wrong. And so now you say "so what?" Why did you tell me to look at the data to begin with if you are just going to ignore it? Were you just trolling when you said there was this relation?
X Gallentius wrote:Quote: Now go ahead and look at the fdu's killboard and see how many of those actual pilots getting those 429 kills are on the list for top vp. So ZKill shows 10 most active pilots down to pilots that have about 13 kills. And the VP gained for the week lists 100 pilots. I do not see a single pilot in the kill top 10 for the week from the fdu making it as even one of the top 100 vp gainers. (If I missed one let me know.)
Why are you so concerned about how others spend their time in FW?
I'm not concerned with how others spend their time. I do not like the mechanics where you most efficiently win sov by constantly running away from fights.
X Gallentius wrote: It gets tiring when CSM candidates like Suitonia and players such as yourself who don't participate offer up suggestions and platforms for improving FW. You don't know enough about it to have a valid, informed, position.
In particular, so what? What others do in FW is their business. FW plexes are a great mechanic for pvp, and the isk provided by them allows FW players to stay in theater where they can both fight and earn isk at the same time (rather than leaving theater to make isk).
Do you think only people with the flu can treat the flu? This is basically an ad hominem. You said to look at the correlation between pvp and vp for corps. I did and now you want to back away from the data and say yeah well you don't even currently participate in fw so your opinion doesn't count. Great. Hopefully our csm members will be a bit more logical about the game.
I have spent plenty of time in faction war to understand the mechanics and I have looked at the data. The data supports my views which are shared by plenty of people we have seen in this thread and others. To say everyone who became disenchanted with rabbit plexing and therefore left faction war just didn't understand enough about the mechanics to have valid opinions about it is insane.
You told me to look at the corps for vp and I did. The data is clear that sov is a rabbit plexing game. So what? So CCP can do better and they said they would. I would like a csm member to hold them to it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
738
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 04:33:41 -
[110] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:kills and VP being related and all that. It's as if the FW plexing mechanic encourages fights, or something...
and i agree, but the plexing mechanic is to flip/defend systems, is it not? i know warzone ocupancy is ****** right now, but isn't it the main reason we are in FW cause of this whole gameplay?
if plexes be removed from warzone occupancy mechanic (and will just be a marker in space for fights as Perkutor Jakuard suggested), how can there be fights if nobody, esp. FW dudes, will go there in the first place...
Just Add Water
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2047
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Posted - 2017.02.28 05:44:15 -
[111] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:X Gallentius wrote:kills and VP being related and all that. It's as if the FW plexing mechanic encourages fights, or something... and i agree, but the plexing mechanic is to flip/defend systems, is it not? i know warzone ocupancy is ****** right now, but isn't it the main reason we are in FW cause of this whole gameplay? if plexes be removed from warzone occupancy mechanic (and will just be a marker in space for fights as Perkutor Jakuard suggested), how can there be fights if nobody, esp. FW dudes, will go there in the first place...
I highly doubt that xg supports perkutors suggestion to decouple plexes from occupancy even if he is too diplomatic to say so. I understand the impulse behind that thought but it lacks the experience of a time when plexes were decoupled and in that time I and most other people had never visited a Plex after the initial honeymoon period when fw was new.
As for certain, he is as entitled as anyone to make suggestions. But it gets tedious when he blames issues he has on things he doesn't like and makes assertions that somehow fixing he pet peeves will bring a huge population surge to fw.
Until he explains how an almost universally detested (ironically by everyone but farmers) mechanic in the form of cashout pushes is a good idea.
Until he explains how free Intel is anything other than an incentive to stay docked and wait for a ping but is rather going to inspire pvpers to chase farmers because they now get a ping telling them what they already had a p.good expectation of.
Then his solutions don't solve the problems he sees, and his asserted outcomes are just a fantasy.
As for timer rollbacks and dual timers. There are problems with both. These were a player suggestion to fix kite evasion farming. CCP went the nuclear option and changed Plex capture mechanics entirely killing pure evasion kite farming so the need for these was not as urgent. However, to avoid the impact that both these have on legit PvP in system pushes and honest small scale scuffles I'd suggest a 3rd option. Very simply, plexes reset 20 to 30 minutes after the last time anyone visited them. |
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
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Posted - 2017.02.28 08:30:58 -
[112] - Quote
wooosh all these words and no one has pointed out that at this moment system occupancy means nothing since the introduction of citadels, One of the main mechanics of FW the system lockouts have now been mitigated.
Yes they do create content but it takes core gameplay away from FW in a big way because it just turns it into batfone central or TZ tanking.
Only reason to own a system at this moment in time is just for tier levels may aswell leave the grunt work to farmers
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 09:04:18 -
[113] - Quote
Plexes are much more than just occupancy switchers, there is a population of neutrals, pirates, that visit them just looking for fights and fw pilots to farm a bit while doing pvp.
This is already happening is not an invention. I suggested to decouple sov because is the only way that pure farmers will not matters in sov changes. Maybe it shouldn't be decoupled, just lowering their influence in some way.
And is curiouse to me how CCP changed the mechanics of plexes and low sec lost a part of their population, and that population was not only rabbit farmers. And that changes really made things worst for sov, people that was doing a few mediums in frigates to earn lps, suddenly they have to do 4 or 5 novices creating even more influence in sov than before.
Lowering the isk ratio will increase the number of plexes conquested. Most of "pure farmers" are people semi-afk, farmers not interested in pvp, and pvp newbies who doesn't fight while farming because they know they have little posibilities to win a combat against a veteran and more skilled player, that is not going to change.
I agree than "automatic intel" is not good for content, this intel must be gathered playing in the space not sitting in a station.
Rollback timers I think will do the same, defenders will clear the plex and will sit in the station again just because the timer will be reset.
I wonder if defenders needs to earrn more iskies ? is good they deplex a system, staying in a plex is offering pvp posibilities, but it is ridiculous the pay ratio you got deplexing a system. This is something that CCP intentionally did maybe to make sov changes more dynamics. |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 09:07:31 -
[114] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:wooosh all these words and no one has pointed out that at this moment system occupancy means nothing since the introduction of citadels, One of the main mechanics of FW the system lockouts have now been mitigated.
Yes they do create content but it takes core gameplay away from FW in a big way because it just turns it into batfone central or TZ tanking.
Only reason to own a system at this moment in time is just for tier levels may aswell leave the grunt work to farmers
No mate, stations still are a interesting for having a market, ( there is litte citadels with markets ) and to get missions. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
277
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Posted - 2017.02.28 14:01:19 -
[115] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:+1 It's amazing how members of JUSTK have the best insight into FW.
...warning...warning....notorious GalMil circle jerk imminent.....you have 5 seconds to reach minimum safe distance.
Damn forums and "too many quotes" I have summarized..
You reference:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:"Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts." and then you post:
X Gallentius wrote:+"Here's another great observation wrt how isk/lp balances out tier levels. "
The balancing isk/lp of factions being in tier 1 is a smokescreen. When you balance out the LP generation by dissuading "flip-flop" militia movement you bring some stablitiy to the markets and instead the ebb and flow of the market becomes a consequence of the supply and demand of the items available, not the faction tier level!
Then X Gallentius wrote: "Most of us get it - the ones who are actually in FW."
WTF really!! Do you not think people who are posting have given FW a great deal of time and there might just be a reason they're not in FW right now?
Thanatos Marathon wrote:dual timers seems like a more elegant solution than timer rollbacks.
I do not agree that this is a conclusion, much as Thanatos has posted, it seems to him to be a more elegant solution. I think there are pro's and con's to both solutions. I'd live with either if CCP were just to try and implement a few of the well regarded suggestions.
I think you have to consider both warzones as well as the many play-styles apparent in Faction Warfare. I think some posts appear to forget that one warzone has flourished at the expense of the other.
This is all inconsequential until someone can get CCP to admit that they might have more subscribers playing in Faction Warfare if it was given a decent review and an expansion. It should not be ignored than many "veterans", bitter vets and those with increasing RL pressures end up in FW before they quit altogether.
The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
59
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 14:17:02 -
[116] - Quote
Thank you for calling out that bs circle jerk. It was getting a little uncomfortable in here. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 16:16:50 -
[117] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:X Gallentius wrote:kills and VP being related and all that. It's as if the FW plexing mechanic encourages fights, or something... and i agree, but the plexing mechanic is to flip/defend systems, is it not? i know warzone ocupancy is ****** right now, but isn't it the main reason we are in FW cause of this whole gameplay? if plexes be removed from warzone occupancy mechanic (and will just be a marker in space for fights as Perkutor Jakuard suggested), how can there be fights if nobody, esp. FW dudes, will go there in the first place... Agreed. Everything hinges on e-peen of a critical mass of (pvp'ing) players wanting to take/defend certain systems. That leads to guys sitting in plexes, which leads to others attacking those plexes too. Which, of course, leads to lots of pvp.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
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Posted - 2017.02.28 16:23:15 -
[118] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle.
Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 18:21:13 -
[119] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW.
I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 19:57:57 -
[120] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW. I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc. Fighting in plexes is not fun? |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
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Posted - 2017.02.28 20:38:42 -
[121] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW. I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc. Fighting in plexes is not fun?
I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 20:43:31 -
[122] - Quote
Most people i know who become pirates do so to participate in end game pvp but might occasionally go roaming in derp fleets but still often blobbed up. This is in comparison to the very few number of people i think i recall leaving FW to engage in the exact same scale of pvp they were doing while in FW.
Im not going to say i dont know of anyone who did this, but i cant recall off the top of my head. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 20:49:31 -
[123] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too. What're you talking about? I guess if you want FW to support your Dreadnaught level lifestyle you're right. But the isk generation in FW is more than enough to support a FW lifestyle. Worst Case Isk Generation: Run two plexes at Tier 1 (20 minutes), get a faction frigate. That's all you need to participate in FW. I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc. Fighting in plexes is not fun? I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates. He said "limited playing time" which means he's never going to have the impact you say he wants because others who put more effort into FW will squash his hopes and dreams. That's just the way it is.
Your proposals don't solve that issue, and neither do Suitonia's.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1500
|
Posted - 2017.02.28 22:28:32 -
[124] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Most people i know who become pirates do so to participate in end game pvp but might occasionally go roaming in derp fleets but still often blobbed up. This is in comparison to the very few number of people i think i recall leaving FW to engage in the exact same scale of pvp they were doing while in FW.
Im not going to say i don't know of anyone who did this, but i cant recall off the top of my head.
Yeah there are a few, but they tend to be smaller groups. Black dragon fighting society (best corp name ever and likely others from chicagos south side would agree) and Black Rebel Rifter club were in the same alliance that I joined. Both great corps. I see lots of other pirate corps fighting in plexes as well. Its not like they form the corp in order to get pvp in plexes. Often Pirate corps don't have a set purpose like that - like null sec corps. They will just be a group of pvpers that want to do whatever. And one of the things is get fights in faction war plexes. Just looking at my killboard it seems about 1/3 of the fights I get in plexes are not from fw and probably 99% of my fights are in or around fw plexes. (at least the ones in low sec). Thats allot of pirates fighting in plexes.
The advantages of being neutral are 1)you don't have to mess around with docking rights and 2)you aren't blue to so many. 3) I would say you don't need to worrry about navies in high sec but generally as a pirate your sec status will too low to stay in high sec for very long anyway.
The disadvantages are 1)you don't get lp if you actually stay in the plex, 2)sometimes the militias won't bother fighting you if you can't take the plex anyway (at least in theory I tend to think if someone wants a fight they will come anyway), and 3) you won't have the wts to fight on gate and at stations without gate guns.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Fighting in plexes is not fun? I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates. He said "limited playing time" which means he's never going to have the impact you say he wants because others who put more effort into FW will squash his hopes and dreams. That's just the way it is. Your proposals don't solve that issue, and neither do Suitonia's.
What people find meaningful will vary.
If sov warfare were something other than a rabbit race then more people might find doing their bit of capturing a few plexes per night as being somewhat meaningful. I know I would. And the proposals I support would achieve that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2973
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 16:12:02 -
[125] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
What people find meaningful will vary.
If sov warfare were something other than a rabbit race then more people might find doing their bit of capturing a few plexes per night as being somewhat meaningful. I know I would. And the proposals I support would achieve that.
(PvP'ers aren't going to chase farmers around the map in back end systems even if they know where they are.) |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
395
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 17:04:13 -
[126] - Quote
Yeap, they will sit docked in their home system instead. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 18:01:04 -
[127] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: (PvP'ers aren't going to chase farmers around the map in back end systems even if they know where they are.)
I donGÇÖt think you are grasping the full systemic change this (combined with rollbacks) would have across the warzone.
If CCP gave us real time intel and rollbacks there would be no more rabbit plexing farmers. It would become so ineffective people would just stop rabbit plexing. And so when you went to a plex you would likely get combat not running away. That would mean more pvpers, join, rejoin, and stay in faction war. And that would in turn further drive out the rabbits.
People do fight in plexes throughout the warzone. Just because a pilot is not in one of the systems you consider a "home system" does not mean they are just a "farmer" (or what is more relevant here a GÇ£rabbit plexerGÇ¥).
Lots of players uses the plexes as a way to split blobs and get good fights. Not only faction war people who want to gain lp or sov. Like I said it seems at least 1/3 of the fights I get in and around plexes are with neutrals. (It may even be more than that) And I am usually not in the main pirate systems like ammamake, Tamma and old man star. Also I get allot of these fights with people outside the main faction war bases such as huola, Kamela, Sisiede, kourmonen and auga.
Why do I avoid these home base systems? Because they are very binary. Those systems are very much like null sec. Can you out escalate? If yes then you can stay. If not then you have nothing to do there. Where as when a system is not someoneGÇÖs base or they are in a smaller group you can manipulate the situation to get a fight. If they are with 4 people maybe only 2 can enter the type of plex I am in and I can get a fight. ThatGÇÖs much harder when everyone can just reship right there and enter the plex and keep it 4 to 1 or 8 vs 2 whatever.
I know you think solo or micro gang pvp is "niche" but I can assure you there are plenty of players who like it. You often have to go off beaten paths to get good fights though. Right now many players can get plex warfare by roaming systems and checking plexes. Yes allot of times they are rabbits and run ( currently that is the most efficient way to gain sov and to get lp ) but other times they will fight. If I see a system with allot in local and with allot of ships on dscan, but none in a plex I might go in a plex myself and I will often get a fight that way.
None of what I am saying is some big secret strategy to get fights, lots and lots of pvpers do the same thing whether they are in faction war or not.
Now lets think about how much more efficient this will be if instead of wandering around looking for pilots in plexes we had intel about where there are plexes being occupied. We could go directly to those systems closest to us. I would say that about 3/4s of the systems I go to have no one in a plex. PvPers would no longer have to spend time warping to those systems and could go directly to the ones that have people plexing. This would dramatically increase the efficiency of finding fights in plexes. It would also dramatically decrease the efficiency of trying to plex thinking you can run away from every fight. Players would be jumping in your plex several times more often than they do now forcing you to warp off and lose time regardless of rollbacks. Moreover if you see no one in your cluster of systems you know that when you go in a plex the entire enemy militia is going to get that intel. Faction bashing aside, I know there are plenty of pvpers in minmatar who will be en route to defend a plex. The days where you go in a plex and wonder if anyone even knows you are there will be gone. What does that mean? Well you know all those pvpers who left fw? Many will come back. That will mean more of these systems will get more busy and squeeze out the rabbits. Many of the pirates who do exactly what I describe will see that the real time intel is a significant advantage to being in faction war and they will join. Again putting even more pressure on the rabbits.
The more rapid response to plexes being captured combined with the increase in pvpers will completely change the game. Rabbit plexing will be a thing of the past.
I do agree with Crosi on one point, we do not need to make it so no one can ever earn an lp or vp by rabbit plexing. We just need to make it so it passes a certain threshold to where it is so much less efficient than fighting that it is no longer a viable way to go. At that point fw sov is no longer be the silly rabbit race we see now. It becomes a real war. And it then gains respect, and then it will gain players. All of this will definitely happen if ccp implements rollbacks and real time intel.
It may be that rollbacks alone could put us past the threshold. It may be that real time intel alone could do it. But that would depend on how they are implemented and I am not sure that one alone would be enough. Also I can not say I know exactly where that threshold is. But the combined decrease that rabbit plexing would suffer from a good real time intel tool and a decent rollback mechanic would almost certainly put it past that threshold.
As a neutral pvper I might not join faction war if only rollbacks were implemented. It might make more sense to keep the larger number of potential targets. However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
And btw the intel tool should not be something that you need to be docked to use. So I don't know why people are talking about staying docked waiting for a ping.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 18:18:34 -
[128] - Quote
Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, so I think I would prefer CCP to spend limited dev resources on other things that I think would have a more positive impact.
Kicking rabbit plexers out of a system and keeping them out is easy, there just aren't a ton of people who want to do it.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 18:58:00 -
[129] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, ....
It may not change the motivation of players but it would drastically change the effectiveness of alt rabbit plexing. Once the effectiveness of a behavior drops below a certain threshold the numbers of people doing it drop to where it has minimal effect. Those changes would accomplish that.
If you mean motivation of the pvpers then it is already there. If someone knows someone is in a plex they will warp there to get a fight. All of my fights in fw low sec are basically when that happens. It will only increase as that form of pvp becomes more and more efficient to get. And those 2 changes will make it much more efficient.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
|
Posted - 2017.03.01 19:08:18 -
[130] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Your proposed intel tool wouldn't stop existing deplexing or oplexing alts because it doesn't change the motivation (or lack there of) factor, .... It may not change the motivation of players but it would drastically change the effectiveness of alt rabbit plexing. Once the effectiveness of a behavior drops below a certain threshold the numbers of people doing it drop to where it has minimal effect. Those changes would accomplish that. If you mean motivation of the pvpers then it is already there. If someone knows someone is in a plex they will warp there to get a fight. All of my fights in fw low sec are basically when that happens. It will only increase as that form of pvp becomes more and more efficient to get. And those 2 changes will make it much more efficient.
Lets pick Teimo as an example:
You get an alert that someone is there plexing. You grab a ship and fly there. You slide the plex, they warp out to a different plex. This happens once or twice and then they tether or dock up in a citadel and wait for you to leave then go right back to plexing.
What exactly has changed in this scenario? There is almost always someone plexing in Teimo currently, and systems like it, you don't even need a notification.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
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Posted - 2017.03.01 22:45:47 -
[131] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: Lets pick Teimo as an example:
You get an alert that someone is there plexing. You grab a ship and fly there. You slide the plex, they warp out to a different plex. This happens once or twice and then they tether or dock up in a citadel and wait for you to leave then go right back to plexing.
What exactly has changed in this scenario? There is almost always someone plexing in Teimo currently, and systems like it, you don't even need a notification.
Ok good question. Its not going to change that overnight. But with time it will.
I think it is important to start out from the perspective of someone who is roaming looking for a fight. Right now when I roam I always have options. What route should I take GÇô should I check this system first before going down a different path? Etc. Now lets leave Teimo aside for now and just think about typical pvp routes you might take on a roam.
If I had easily accessible intel tool about plexes I would see ok this path has 4 wts and one friendly plexing in it 1 jump away where as the other paths seem to have very little. So I will go to where I see people plexing. Even if normally I would have taken the different route! Lots of other Pvpers will make that same decision. I also will tend not to go to systems or on routes where there are very few people plexing. Again lots of pvpers will do the same.
If your intel tells you there are more wts plexing in some of your pvp spots wouldnGÇÖt that bump up their priority? I know it would for me. I mean right now I am just roaming and dscanning the plexes in systems with people. As do many other pvpers.
Ok so then what? So then we would start to get more fights faster in plexes because the systems with people plexing take priority for a certain percent of low sec pvpers. So players who are looking for pvp will start to realize hey I can get some pvp faster if I use this intel. More players will use the intel tool. That means more players will get even more pvp using the intel. That means more pvpers will want to join the militia so they can use the intel etc. Pretty soon you will find systems that used to be plexed mainly by rabbits are getting lots of fights over those plexes. (again probably not teimo right away but many more systems than your main pvp hot spots)
As this grows with pvpers systems that used to medium hotspots for plex pvp will become very hot GÇô like home systems. So pvpers who want to avoid large groups will move to slightly quieter systems driving out rabbits from more systems. Before too long players won't even be able to rabbit plex Teimo.
Not only that but the game of fw sov itself will start to be seen as less of a rabbit plexing race and more of a legit pvp game. So people who thought the current rabbit plexing game is too horrible to even bother with might start to change their minds since it is becoming much more pvp fast paced and fun. New players will not become disgusted by it so fast. This will give fw sov more credibility and lead to more people giving it a try and staying longer. The importance of this aspect can not be overstated.
And this will continue to snowball to where we will have hundreds if not thousands of pvpers actively pursuing sov in the militias at any given time. Its very much a matter of tipping points and once that point is tipped where people see they get the best pvp the quickest by using the intel tool to find plexes to fight over it will snowball.
Rabbits will not be able to hide anymore and gain time on their plexes. So pvp corps that even currently want to gain sov outside their own system will have an easier time taking and keeping more systems. Also with rollbacks they will lose that time when they warp off. Its bad news all around for rabbits. More pvpers no hiding and rollbacks punishing them from running.
As the number of pvpers going directly to plexes grows the number of plexes rabbits can capture without interruption decreases. Rollbacks makes their work even less efficient. Soon people will be better off to just trying to fight GÇô or better off farming something else for isk. Either way fw sov gains because it is no longer a joke.
Also as to Teimo let me also say you know more about who is where in the different systems than your average militia. I didnGÇÖt know much about teimo because it is not on any of my typical routes. I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. And that will make the rabbits less and less efficient and make more and more time rollback. As the fights over plexes heat up more and more players will join and keep disturbing teimo rabbits. But really its that general push of pvp in plexes that will eventually make it so you can't rabbit plex even in teimo.
And BTW if we had an intel tool it wouldn't be for a pvper to actually capture plexes in Teimo since he would likely get more enemies warping in on him.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 00:09:06 -
[132] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 01:24:27 -
[133] - Quote
Let's forget the rabbits for a moment.
What happens with people that they just want to do a few plexes but will pick up a fight if looks engagable. ( this is my tipical scenary when I'm running out of isk, I pick up a combat ship, and usually I don't plex in hotspots where defenders will chase me like hell )
The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult, no iskis no pvp that's for sure.
Not all in plexes are for sov reasons, "combat-farming" is ok and desirable, much better than missions in terms of content.
Why not defenders just undock and "give a walk" over the systems they want to protect ?.
It is really so tiring to warp to the sun and scan a few plexes for targets if you see one wt in local.
Come on guys, what will be the next request, auto-warping at 10 and sliding and point-web automatically ?
OMG undock and fight, this game has already too much people just itting in the stations.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
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Posted - 2017.03.02 02:07:39 -
[134] - Quote
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:
The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult....
...
Yes it will. That is the point.
Either you are ready to fight for sov or you are not. If you are not then you might want to run some fw missions or do one of a hundred of other pve isk farming activities eve has to offer. Once you are ready to actually fight for sov then come and fight for it.
EVE needs more meaningful pvp mechanics. We don't need to keep fw sov as yet another pve activity to be farmed.
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.)
Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 04:31:27 -
[135] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them. So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through? |
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 05:54:56 -
[136] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo. (You stated in past threads that you personally wouldn't go chasing rabbits like the ones found in Teimo.) Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them. So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through?
He will chase them in the forum, and will type posts to talk about things that doesn't play really.
He doesn't play factional, and have 4 combats from 23th feb to today, why is talking here ?
He will change lp-isk mechanics which doens't affect because he does pvp in the forum not in the game.
Cerein, enroll factional or shut up. |
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 07:24:39 -
[137] - Quote
Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1382
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 12:51:55 -
[138] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off
Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one...
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 13:32:07 -
[139] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one...
The intel tool would give real time intel of where Plex timers are running, not just where someone opened a Plex. Popping a Plex would not do anything.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
279
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 13:53:01 -
[140] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: However if joining the militia meant I received real time intel on plexes being run I would join immediately.
so what stops the opposite side running alts to pop plex in every system they pass just to spam the living **** outa the intel tool i for one would use an alt just to do this an **** people off Block the notification of course! But if we do that we're back to square one... The intel tool would give real time intel of where Plex timers are running, not just where someone opened a Plex. Popping a Plex would not do anything.
I think you are pushing too hard on this particular idea Caerain, when there is wider support for a number of other iterations that could have significant impact. Even discarding the posters dead against your idea, I think there are more that would like to see other items higher on the list that this idea.
CCP need to look at conflict drivers and a better balance to the "be in militia / be outside militia" ratio - which should include long terms targets/rewards for Militiamen gone career, ie: - [some work on ranks and how they are achieved (once again another mechanism sourced LP farming) and what benefits to holding a higher rank]
Those posting that LP farmers and the sov effects of LP farmers do not have an impact on FW population are ignoring the wider picture and likely looking too much at themselves and not at the different types of player styles that FW has drawn.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 14:58:11 -
[141] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: So you are now committed to chasing rabbits if your proposed changes go through?
I posted what would change above. I don't think I can make it any simpler. I am sorry you can't understand. BTW when you were claiming a close relationship between vp and pvp, I asked you if you all your plexing alts were in your main character's corp 2 times. You never answered. Are all your plexing alts in in Justified Chaos? My alts are not in JUSTK.
Now please either answer whether or not you will commit to chasing plexing rabbits if your proposals are implemented. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 16:50:29 -
[142] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I think you are pushing too hard on this particular idea Caerain, when there is wider support for a number of other iterations that could have significant impact. GǪ.
CCP need to look at conflict drivers and a better balance to the "be in militia / be outside militia" ratio - which should include long terms targets/rewards for Militiamen gone career, ie: - [some work on ranks and how they are achieved (once again another mechanism sourced LP farming) and what benefits to holding a higher rank]
Those posting that LP farmers and the sov effects of LP farmers do not have an impact on FW population are ignoring the wider picture and likely looking too much at themselves and not at the different types of player styles that FW has drawn.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that as long as you win sov by running away, fw will remain a joke for the vast majority of people. There are only 2 proposals that address that and those are the only 2 proposals that will significantly change fw for the better. Those 2 changes are the only ones that actually make fighting for sov fun instead of "grunt work" or "soul crushing" as has been described in this very thread and hundreds of threads like it. If there are other changes that will change what I, Bienator II or so many others have repeatedly said is the underlying problem then I am happy to listen.
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
Have you read what they claim and looked at the data. What do you think of the data as to XGs claim that vp and pvp go hand in hand? More vets need to call these guys out as the same people who have argued extensively for the bad system we have now. I realize that may not come from the fw community for diplomatic reasons. But people just need to have some backbone and recognize the nonsense they spew for what it is. (This isnGÇÖt really directed at you as you have spoken out but I think your view that we can put this critical issue to one side and talk about minor tweaks is doing the same thing and expecting different results.)
If anyone has a legitimate question like the one above I will answer it. (alucard posted this question before and I gave him the same answer and he is almost always a troll, so I donGÇÖt think he was legitimately asking, but to the extent others might wonder I answered.)
I am sorry but I highly doubt adjusting anything with fw ranks is going bring more people into eve so long as the fw sov mechanic is junk. Getting a high rank playing a horrible game will never be something rational people care about. As far as rewards CCP has had the game give no consequences,(pre inferno) tons of consequences (inferno) and then moderate consequences (now) and none of this really changed the underlying problem.
Sure throwing lots of isk at fw will get more characters (likely alts) into faction war just like throwing lots of isk at incursions will get lots of characters running those. But that will not make eve as a whole any better.
As Bienator II pointed "none of the changes addressed the underlying issue that running away or hiding is LP efficient"
Its true many of the people who understand this is the underlying problem no longer do fw or frequent this forum, but sadly many of the trolls remain here. But don't confuse that with consensus of faction war players, let alone eve players.
As long as you win sov by running away fw will remain a joke for the vast majority of players. You can agree or disagree. But if you agree, then understand we need to change that. You might think the 2 changes I propose wonGÇÖt change it, thatGÇÖs fine. I gave my reasons and if anyone wants to discuss them I am open to that. But any changes that fail to deal with the bold sentence is ignoring the elephant in the room.
If ccp is going to give any time to faction war we all know this only happens a few times a decade. So we shouldnGÇÖt waste opportunities like we did in the past by asking them to polish a turd. LetGÇÖs get them to finally fix the real issue that has existed since fw came out.
X Gallentius wrote: My alts are not in JUSTK.
Now please either answer whether or not you will commit to chasing plexing rabbits if your proposals are implemented.
I am not surprised your plexing alts are in a different corp. You know we want to keep the fa+ºade that vp and pvp are related.
As to what I and others will do if we have a real time intel tool I posted my answer here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855913#post6855913 and here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855603#post6855603
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 16:54:37 -
[143] - Quote
Cearain wrote:.. multiple paragraphs of stuff... and then this....
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Give us the tl;dr version. Are you going to commit to chasing rabbits or not?
|
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 19:11:43 -
[144] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise
I do like the rollback idea i just think the realtime intel is ****
I didnt leave FW due to any mechanic the reason i left is that after 6 years service i wanted to do something different leaving SPDR was one of the hardest things id done (in Game) but i was given the opportunity to Join DHSJ and work with my longtime friend Pred Elite if this option hadnt arose i would still be were i was
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
|
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 20:32:20 -
[145] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise
You are right they did not elaborate on what the intel tool would be. Nor did they gives specifics on the form of rollbacks they promised. But they said it was in response to player feedback on fw and I am not aware of any other intel tools being proposed for fw. I also am not proposing any specific type of intel tool other than it would let us know where and when complex timers are being run. The more accessible the better.
Everyone leaves fw for their own reasons. But one thing is clear. The fw sov system is keeping very few of them. Plenty of people join ready to get sov for their faction. Then they find out how most sov is won and quickly lose interest. IMO it could and should be a huge draw for eve and CCP is not coming close to achieving its potential.
I tended to fly solo but Pred was always good guy and fc to fly with when he was in amarr. I can see wanting to be in a corp with him.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 21:00:51 -
[146] - Quote
Cearain wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote:
ItGÇÖs not like these 2 changes including the intel idea have not had decent support over the years. It has had as much support as just about any faction war idea. And that is why ccp has even promised to make both changes. But they dropped the ball. Now Fozzie in a podcast said he was aiming at fw plexxers with the navy maulus bonus.
But there are the same few people who have been in fw for a long time and never really understood why anyone would leave, shouting both proposals down and saying only people who like faction war enough to participate should have a voice. They are there with their plexing alts oblivious as to why people think what they have been doing so long is moronic. Those same few (I used to call XG crosi and alucard, mo larry and curly) are not going to keep me from expressing my own views. Yes they have posted quite a bit on these forums to preserve the system we now have. They will continue to deny that maybe they were wrong. They will refuse to admit that maybe people are leaving faction war because the basic sov mechanic where you win by running away sucks.
.
You have the source for ccps promise of this exact method of intel? all i ever remember them saying is better intel tools and never elaborated on them.... CCP do this for every part of the game mention an idea so people are in awe of them at round tables like they are going to add super new features that never materialise You are right they did not elaborate on what the intel tool would be. Nor did they gives specifics on the form of rollbacks they promised. But they said it was in response to player feedback on fw and I am not aware of any other intel tools being proposed for fw. I also am not proposing any specific type of intel tool other than it would let us know where and when complex timers are being run. The more accessible the better. Everyone leaves fw for their own reasons. But one thing is clear. The fw sov system is keeping very few of them. Plenty of people join ready to get sov for their faction. Then they find out how most sov is won and quickly lose interest. IMO it could and should be a huge draw for eve and CCP is not coming close to achieving its potential. I tended to fly solo but Pred was always good guy and fc to fly with when he was in amarr. I can see wanting to be in a corp with him. X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:.. multiple paragraphs of stuff... and then this....
If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.
Give us the tl;dr version. Are you going to commit to chasing rabbits or not? Who is "us"? You seem to be the only interested in knowing if I will chase rabbits. I will continue to operate as I do now only much more efficiently. That is if I see someone in a plex that is in my engagement envelope I will go in to fight them. If they warp out I might give a chase to another plex or something 1-3 times. But I do not go chasing them system to system. Sometimes I hang out in the system or plex to see if they have friends etc. Thats what I do and that is what I will likely continue to do. If you think that is "chasing rabbits" then yes I will chase rabbits - Just like I do now. The point is everyone who does what I do - finding fights in plexes - would simply be more efficient at it and that would mean rabbits need to warp out more often. This reduces their efficiency. The rollbacks will further reduce their efficiency. And if ccp continues to tweak the intel and the rollbacks rabbits can be a thing of the past. I mean if we take the most extreme rollback where you lose all your time every time you warp out then can you see how that would end rabbit plexing? The intel will allow us to eliminate rabbits with a less draconian rollback. I think ccp might start with something like a 3 minute deduction off the timer (capped at neutral) and then maybe a slow count back. That way if you have plexers who have 2 alts in different plexes in the same system then if they keep bouncing back and forth to their plexes then they will soon lose all their time. But whatever we can just tweak it as needed.
I aslked pages ago, how you expect intel of farmers in systems, that pvpers already know are haunted by famers, will incentivise pvpers to now go chase them. When they already know that farmers are there before any free intel.
I think XG was just trying to personalise that problem for you, to see if you perform the mental gymnastics to bridge your 'issue-solution-outcome' postulation here.
Im going to assume you cannot connect the dots of your argument on the bases of you getting suddenly defensive and accusing other people of dishonesty, instead of smughly explaining exactly why pvpers would suddenly want to chase farmers around in systems they dont and will continue not to care about. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 21:53:27 -
[147] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I think XG was just trying to personalise that problem for you, to see if you perform the mental gymnastics to bridge your 'issue-solution-outcome' postulation here.
Cearain has a problem with "us", so let's generalize to prove the point by opening up the question to everybody reading this thread.
Will any of you reading this thread commit to chasing rabbits if Cearain's proposals are implemented? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.02 22:56:16 -
[148] - Quote
Ill take it to a practical level.
Ive not undocked this character in months. If any of you are not already aware of the location of farmers in your locality. But if you were would like to chase them around systems that dont matter.. EVEmail me and ill give you their almost certain locations. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 02:14:14 -
[149] - Quote
Rollbacks and real time intel will work to eliminate or greatly reduce rabbits even if people won't "commit to chasing rabbits."
I think you will find that most people will use common sense and see that that letting pvpers know where plexes are being attacked will lead to more defenses of those complexes. Its not really that complicated. That this will make life harder on those who do not want combat should also not be so difficult to follow.
Im sorry you cant connect the dots. Despite my trying to explain it in the simplist terms possible in 2 different lengthy posts.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855603#post6855603
and
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6855913#post6855913
I think you have a mental block.
Your corpmate doesn't have english as a first language and he somehow could see the obvious:
Perkutor Jakuard wrote: The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult,
Maybe ask him if he is going to commit to chasing rabbits.
In any event I am sure he will fall in line when you tell him he is reaching the unpopular conclusion on this.
X Gallentius wrote:+1 It's amazing how members of JUSTK have the best insight into FW.
Perkutor Jakuard wrote:Clap Clap Clap.
It's amazing of how well X G, explained and knows what is the beuty of fw. :)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 02:24:10 -
[150] - Quote
Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW".... |
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
279
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 14:11:46 -
[151] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW"....
You are a dog with a bone.
Whilst, I am not entirely behind the importance of the intel tool proposal by Caerain, I support the timer rollback / dual timer fix and the widely supported fixes on the lists that have circulated for a few years.
To answer your question directly, because you seem to think it is an important part of your character assassination attempt to discredit an idea you don't agree with:
I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I choose to live in. I have chased off "rabbits" in the systems I chose to live whilst I was CalMil with PYRE. I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I sometimes live in even now whilst I am a neutral. I would continue to chase off "rabbits" from the system I chose to live in should I return to FW.
Whilst a number of you assume (incorrectly) that "nobody cares about" all the backwater systems, I have and might again choose to care about my corner of the warzone.
Just because as system has low traffic volume and can be quiet does not mean that someone is not interested in fighting for their Militia there. Some people choose a quieter corner so they can have the option of flying around solo, in pairs or threes, whilst avoiding insta gate camps and fleets that they cannot compete with in low numbers. It is usually tied in with good PvE content in the same system to maintain the wallet.
Often different types of PvPers come to these systems looking for the kind of fights they set off on a roam to find.
Whilst I fully expect that casual players and small groups should find it impossible (or at least extremely difficult) to hold sovereignty in a FW system, it should be possible for them to log in for their TZ and find that they can make an attempt to hold the system or go out and get fights.
I've heard countless complaints from good active corp members in an active corp complain about TZ farmers reducing their gameplay to counter farming just to keep the contested level down. They always end up in "Why don't we just take the corp neutral and we wont take any faction standings hits and can shoot both sides".
You seem to have lost the big picture....
It currently remains too easy for "rabbits" to at minimal risk, acquire large values of isk, in a mechanism that had a predetermined intention of driving conflict, without engaging or defending their reward. If you think this does not extrapolate to have an affect to cause frustration, to push players into boring gameplay (deplexing is not always done afk as some people do not have multiple accounts) and ultimately to reduce Militia popluations, you are effing crazy.
I've seen you all go on and on about this is the best system FW has ever had. You might be correct but, Eve has a reducing total active subscription base and an aging (in RL) player base (on which RL pressures become greater than the time demanded by Eve Online). If you do not accommodate players under these considerations and provide game play to support the different play styles, you will lose more subs (I do not think an insignificant number).
Eve is already bleeding numbers.
Give FW a good review and implement smart changes and you would find it to be a subscription growth area.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association Did he say Jump
279
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 14:15:24 -
[152] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW"....
One day I might just see a post from you that "adds" something to the ideas around for FW rather than just "takes away" from someone else.
Perhaps you have been involved heavily in discussions in your "closed circle" which is possible considering most of your posts tend to be "exclusive" rather than "inclusive" in attitude. I don't see you publically making any suggestions...
Or is it that you think there is absolutely no need for any change?
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 14:59:51 -
[153] - Quote
You dont have to come up with your own idea in order to question someone elses.
Its perfectly valid to question someone ideas, specially when there is not clear way they lead to solving the issues he claims them to.
Saying otherwise is absurd.
I cant speak for XG, but i have said in this thread that in terms of mechanics, FW is in a very good place. Than posted a good list of tweaks and actual issues that could be looked at to imporve on what we have.
Cerains suggestions are either destructive (Cash out systems) or antithetical to EVE in general (free, presumably instant intel of player locations).
All the problems in FW could be solved with a more active player base. Thats player corps responsibility to recruit and retain players to create an active warzone.
As for backwater systems. Its not about if you care about them or not. Its about if free intel will make people who dont currently care about them (most people) care enough to go chase farmers around, that they were already aware were likely there. Cerain sees a problem and presents a solution. Unfortunately, he has no explanation of the ???? step between free intel and no more evasion farming. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 16:35:03 -
[154] - Quote
XG supports the minor tweaks that marathon put forth. I think we can all pretty much agree on those, they are good so far as they go. But I think most agree they are mostly quality of life and other relatively minor improvements. (maybe citadels is a big one but he doesn't actually say what should happen there and its unclear we will get much agreement there) The criticism of the list is basically that they do not address the brokenness of fw sov at all. And if CCP is going to work on faction war we have to assume that they will not touch it again for another 3 to 4 years. So everytime they do work on it we better have a clear message as to what we want or they wonGÇÖt make changes that deal with the core problem of rabbit plexers.
Hans pushed for intel and rollbacks when he was on csm. But they got buried in all the discussions about lp and rats so we still have a fundamentally broken sov system.
With Crosi and XG, understand, some people can disagree with someone without feeling the need to vilify them. That is not the case with everyone. Also you need to understand the history with XG and Crosi to how they got where they are now. They have pretty consistently argued that farming had been fixed when ccp boosted the tank of the npcs and that rollbacks or other measure were no longer needed. They are unlikely to admit they were wrong. Crosi - to his credit is at least now saying perhaps some sort of rollback might be nice but for years they have always been against the any sort of direct anti-rabbit measures. (And CrosiGÇÖs rollback is probably the weakest rollback I ever heard and probably won't change much if that is all ccp does.) But really he is going to continue to side with XG in their stance that they were right all along. No reasoning, no data, no discussion will change that. Some people can't get over their biases.
They will say things like GÇ£look at all the pvp I got yesterday!GÇ¥ GÇ£No one cares about those other 90% of systems anywayGÇ¥, GÇ£ItGÇÖs the players fault for not being more active.GÇ¥ They will also misrepresent those who disagree (BTW I never said I want ccp to reinstate the cash out system, and I never said the intel needs to be "free") etc etc and round and round. This has been the state of these forums whenever talk of fw changes comes up these guys come in and derail and obfuscate.
I mean I do think strong rollbacks and a good real time intel will solve the problem. But if ccp did those proposals and the problem still existed as strong as ever 6 months out then I would say ok maybe I was wrong and we need to take a different approach. But as of now I don't think any other approaches will work. Not allowing stabs will not change much since people can just warp out long before you land on grid and get in point range. Having the whole area bubbled has some other undesirable issues.
It seems to me we can look at the npc corps and see what their vp to kill ratio is to gauge this. The npc corps are always in the top for both and therefore listed. Last I checked the FDU had like 86000 vp for the week and 429 kills. That is 1 kill per 200 vp. (although even there the top killers in FDU which accounted for about half of the kills were not even listed as one of the top 100 vp gainers so even that disgustingly low number of kills per vp is probably more like 1 per 4-600 vp.) If rollbacks and real time intel do not work to change that ratio to more kills per vp after 6 months I will give both of them a carrier.
Crosi and XG, Players already chase rabbits. It happens every day. You hear about it on the forums on how the rabbits just warp off. No one needs to commit to doing it more than they already do. But intel and rollbacks will make the rabbits less efficient. If you see someone is running a plex one system nearby you wonGÇÖt know if they are a rabbit or not and you might go there when otherwise you would have gone to a different system. If they are a rabbit then you will have chased a rabbit and forced them to go through a rollback of some form. Without the intel you might have just gone to a different system and never bothered the rabbit. This really isnGÇÖt hard to understand. And lots of smaller scale pvpers will converge on plexes if tthey can easily see where they are being taken. Especially if they know the player will suffer a rollback if they warp out. The two ideas work very well together.
Hell if you know all of the enemy militia knows where you are running a plex then you might sit and stay in a plex yourself instead of roaming because you will find more people will come to you. The rabbit that was in that system will lose all his time while you gain your time. It will be like you just ran 2 plexes. If he goes next door to run a plex you can likely finish your plex and then immediately kick him out of that new one and again run a different plex in the system and effectively run 2 plexes. But none of this will be as effective if you donGÇÖt know where the plexes are being run.
And do you think players will need to commit to chasing more rabbits for rollbacks to work?
Crosi: Intel about sov relevant events happening is not anti-eve. Your saying this just demonstrates your lack of knowledge of the game as a whole.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.03 16:39:24 -
[155] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: One day I might just see a post from you that "adds" something to the ideas around for FW rather than just "takes away" from someone else.
See previous posts: Fix the low hanging fruit that's been on the table for years.
|
Perkutor Jakuard
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 02:47:10 -
[156] - Quote
We have expent four pages of posts just talking about a proponsal that most people think is not optimal, it would produce some benefits but will produce more negative than positive results to the whole enviroment in the factional warzone. I think we can descrive the last 4 pages of this thread like that.
We end up in a situation that Master Sergeant MacRobert describes like "a dog with a bone", because basically there are 4 pages of posts trying to explain cearein our point of view which is basically what you MSM exposed in your first post in this page, and cereain explining us his point of view too. I've got the feeling that MSM was not following the thread totally, correct me please if I'm wrong.
I think everybody here must respect the position of everybody else, but honestly we can't continue typing another bunch of pages about the intel tool, it is not productive. Basically we are not convincing Cearein and Cearein is not convincing us.
Cearein what you want to achieve with the intel tool, reducing the influence of pure farmers in fw sov making defenders life easier, maybe could be done in other ways. I'm sure is possible. But not sure if CCP will do as they design the current system to be driven by the isk/lp and oplexing/dplexing asymetric rewards, motivating people to attack more than defend, that's my feeling.
I think we should be productive and start to work from the proponsals that everybody see as positive, the list that Thanathos compiled from other posts coi+¦d be a good starting point, looks that everybody agree those points.
What could we add to such list ?
Do you think guys that plexing influence should be reduced ?
If ok, which other ways would you think are positive to the whole community of fw.
My proponsal: the conquer ratio per plex - 0.3 per plex - could be reduced to 0.15 and a plexer could donate a fixed amount of the just earned lps to conquer/defend the system instead of putting the lps in their pocket, so the offensive/defensive ratio would be converted from 0.15 to 0.3 if thre is a "donation".
Pure farmers, rabbits or people not interested in sov will not donate so sov influence would be reduced, defender's life will be easier, people is still motivated to atack, pure farmers would get their lps, etc...
EDITED: to correct my wording, sorry about my english, not my first language. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.04 13:12:53 -
[157] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I mean I do think strong rollbacks and a good real time intel will solve the problem. But if ccp did those proposals and the problem still existed as strong as ever 6 months out then I would say ok maybe I was wrong and we need to take a different approach.
For the millionth time over several years, you have not yet explained WHO is going to go farmer chasing??? If that is the content pvpers wanted, they already know perfectly well where to find it lol.
There should be NO real time advantage given to people who sit in stations. Intel is traditionally gathered by players and is an important role. There is macro intel in the FW window and killboards, some would argue that is already too much.
What would actually make a difference is looking at the risks and rewards that will actually drive player behaviours.
Fixing the farmer problem is easy. Just remove LP from plexing. If farming is the biggest problem in FW this is the most important solution./s
TBH, i think the simplest first step towards creating more risk for those purely interested in farming LP, would be for ships fitted with warp core stabs to be unable to activate an acceleration gate. Perhaps the same with a T1 cloak but there are legitimate reasons to use that so perhaps the cloak exclusion zone inside the plex will have to do..
This will make farming significantly less passive, and pvpers might actually try more often to chase farmers out of plexes since their tackle will be effective. You know? A change that drives a change in behaviour. May need a change to the ability to deploy or use a mobile depot inside a plex.
Im not against timer rollbacks but i think there is a less simpler and less disruptive solution. As i said earlier. I think that if you persuade a farmer to stop farming in a particular plex, that plex should just stay as it is for 10-25 minutes (size dependant) after the last opposite faction pilot was running the timer, then reset. Perhaps even taking it out of the system scanner as a 'failed attack' for 30 mins until it respawns. It might be necessary to have it respawn immediately though to prevent 'gaming' that system.
So there, 2 presumably easy changes to implement that subtly rebalance the incentives to farm and to chase farmers. Rewards undocking rather than staying docked. And that also address the result of 'winning' against a farmer. As in you no longer have to sit in a plex, but you will have to remain vigilant. |
Alesandros Mornhavon
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 01:05:03 -
[158] - Quote
Somethings to get out of the way first:
1. Capsuleers who enter FW complexes get a suspect timer. No more security status hit for FW pilots who have to shoot neutrals first.
2. Tier / LP rewards... as previously discussed ad nausea.
What I'd like to see implemented is a change to how system sieges/takeovers are achieved in FW. I'm drawing from mechanics / material from other areas of Eve to include Incursions.
System Contested Dynamics:
- The current mechanics of plexing from 0% to 100% (vulnerable) is mind-numbingly tedious. Each plex captured increases/reduces the system contested level by 0.7%. With little or no action by the opposing force, you can generally only get 3-4% per hour... about 1 full day of continuous plexing to make the system vulnerable. This is 24 hours of endlessly circling a beacon and shooting a re-spawning rat... mind-numbingly awful.
Recommendation: Provide alternative means of increasing the System Contested Levels.
- Establish a certain x% (say 50%), that when the system reaches it certain optional/additional FW sites open up which provide more varied/diverse completion. Sort of like Incursions, these sites require specific objectives to be accomplished before the site can be completed... and a larger system % (5-10%) increase/decrease awarded to the FW pilots. Inside of these sites, the opposing militias will need to contend with each other while seeking to completing objectives/prevent the other militia from completing objectives. ONLY FW PILOTS CAN ENTER THESE SPECIFIC SITES (NO NEUTRALS/PIRATES).
- Example: Galmil, after sufficient plexing gets a Calmil system to 50% contested. Upon this occurring, a special FW Event Site appears. Seeing this new site become available, both Calmil and Galmil direct their pilots to enter these sites, hoping to successfully complete it, netting both a hefty system % increase and large LP payout (and/or isk payout like incursions).
- FW Event Site Mechanic: (a) These sites can only be entered by FW pilots (those enlisted in FW NPC corp or in a corp enlisted in FW). The entrances to these sites can only be accessed by their respective militia personnel. (b) Inside of these sites, each force will be pitted against the other to accomplish objectives that will result in the site being completed by one side or the other. (c) There will be different kinds of sites, with different objectives to provide variety. (d) There will be different entrances to this site, Militias can only enter their race-specific gate. These gates will take pilots to different beacons within the site (basically allowing re-spawn/reinforcement locations for each side). (e) There can be restrictions on ships numbers/types. I.e. each side can bring unlimited frigates/destroyers, 20 cruisers, 10 BC/BS, 3 capital ships, etc (f) These events sites could be mandatory in order to get a system to 100%... or they could just be optional for attackers/defenders to try to more quickly raise/lower the system's contested level. (g) Only one of these sites spawns at a given time. Maybe the first site spawns at 50%, the second spawns at 70%, and a third spawns at 90%... or some similar mechanic.
- Some FW Event Site Scenarios Possibilities: (a) Invading Fleet vs Defending Fleet: *There are 2 NPC fleets inside the site. Members of each militia must destroy the other militia's NPC fleet in order to complete the site. You have to destroy your enemy's fleet while simultaneously preventing him from destroying yours. NPC Fleet + Militia Fleet vs NPC Fleet + Militia Fleet. Have the fleets spawn 100-200km from each other and prevent on grid warping (like in other FW/deadspace plexes).
(b) Invading Fleet Assaulting Defending Station: *An NPC invasion fleet is assaulting a space station (with a smaller NPC fleet). The objective of the attackers is to destroy the defender's space station. The objective of the defenders is to destroy the flag ship of the attacking fleet (maybe something like a Titan). Defend your base... destroy your enemy's!
(c) Space Station / Capital Ship Sabotage - There is a structure of some kind, ship, or some other kind of target, when a force will need to deliver an item to the target to achieve victory. Sort of like reverse-capture the flag. Something similar to hacking/data analyzing mechanics on the target, etc.
(d) Retrieve/Capture Important Item/VIP - In contrast to scenario (c), opposing forces would have to capture something/someone and bring it back to a specific location to achieve victory. Opposing forces would essentially be engaging in a capture the flag game of sorts... but with space ships... and trying not to get blown up.
---
TLDR:
I'm tired of orbiting a beacon for days on end just to magically make a system more contested... give militias an alternative means to affect contested levels in a system... make these require teamwork to do (be well beyond solo-ing) and make it so that the militias face off against one another.
*I HATE PLEXING.
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 01:13:20 -
[159] - Quote
No one can make a militia fight.
If you are bored of orbiting buttons with no contest from the opposite militia, perhaps you were in the wrong systems?
If you want to capture systems no one cares about due to an overarching objective of pushing higher tier levels. At the same time the opposing militia neither cares about those systems nor actively opposes your objective to gain a higher tier, then its going to be boring,
If you feel entitled to action, even though your immediate objectives are to increase LP flow and to capture systems no one cares about, then i question your entitlement to be entertained by the opposite militia.
Perhaps try baiting, showing a little leg. Making it interesting. Every option is available to you.
Remember, you are dealing with other people, not NPCs. |
Alesandros Mornhavon
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 02:30:54 -
[160] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No one can make a militia fight.
If you are bored of orbiting buttons with no contest from the opposite militia, perhaps you were in the wrong systems?
If you want to capture systems no one cares about due to an overarching objective of pushing higher tier levels. At the same time the opposing militia neither cares about those systems nor actively opposes your objective to gain a higher tier, then its going to be boring,
If you feel entitled to action, even though your immediate objectives are to increase LP flow and to capture systems no one cares about, then i question your entitlement to be entertained by the opposite militia.
Perhaps try baiting, showing a little leg. Making it interesting. Every option is available to you.
Remember, you are dealing with other people, not NPCs.
Surely your comments weren't directed to me?
If so, you might've missed the intent of my post. As most of the other FW pilots have said here, plexing sucks, it's ridiculously boring and tedious. Most fights follow these two formulas:
(a) Kitey Doctrine & get inside plex first (hold the high ground) (b) Have a bigger blob
PvP is the tactical consideration of FW (the immediate and often shortsighted perspective). Capturing systems is the operational consideration of FW. Taking the warzone is the strategic goal of FW (at least by definition).
I suggested some variations to the current system contesting mechanics that would provide a much needed "change of pace" to current plex fighting (aka king of the hill) for the tactical level of FW as well as providing alternatives to the long grind of operational objectives. Most of my recommendations use ideas already present in game.
FYI: I get plenty of action in FW space when I undock: https://zkillboard.com/character/96259200/
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Darth Magic
Shadow Order of the Stars
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.05 15:45:54 -
[161] - Quote
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 02:41:11 -
[162] - Quote
Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone. |
Suitonia
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
800
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 04:22:59 -
[163] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.
The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 04:35:12 -
[164] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.
I'm not sure it does.
People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them.
People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing.
The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 05:37:44 -
[165] - Quote
Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone. I'm not sure it does.People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them. People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing. The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it. I know it does because I've been on both ends of the stick and have had these sorts of discussions with the main content creators in my militia for the past several years.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 05:52:37 -
[166] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone. The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse. So? Farmers are gonna farm.
If you're worried about players switching sides, then you might want to put restrictions on accounts and ip addresses like they do with alphas.
If you're worried about the winning/losing side making too much/little isk/hour, don't. You don't need an incredible amount of isk to play FW. A side at Tier 1 makes more than enough isk to stay in the fight. Plus the isk/LP changes over time, and the cost in LP to keep a Tier at a higher level is quite a bit more.
If you're worried about FW being too "one-sided", don't. isk/lp goes down if too much LP is generated by one side. At some point it becomes more profitable for alts to be on the "losing" side. And then the pendulum swings. Without this sort of dynamic in play, the warzone would stagnate and fewer people would care about pushing systems.
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ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 12:56:50 -
[167] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone. The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.
Then you maybe looking at the wrong warzone while amarr / minmatar maybe in constant flux of tier 4-5 and what not that is down to it being a pure farm zone.
The Gallente / caldari warzone is nothing like that snd most timnes only ever reaches t3 for oneside and maybe t1-2 dipping for the losing side but constantly fought over. Yes they have some farmers im not saying they dont but they dont effect the day to day stuff even a quarter as much as the opposite warzone
Also most LP comes from missions any farmer worth thier salt wouldnt be in plex, the problem is nothing like it was maybe 2 to 3 years ago you seem to have old information
Your last comments showed exactly how out of touch you are with the demographic and have only listened to what your goon friends have told you who have farm alts in minnie / amarr
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
|
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
745
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 13:03:47 -
[168] - Quote
farmers doesn't help donate LPs also to upgrade systems (to up tier), so....
Just Add Water
|
Aves Asio
51
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 14:29:36 -
[169] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Then you maybe looking at the wrong warzone while amarr / minmatar maybe in constant flux of tier 4-5 and what not that is down to it being a pure farm zone.
The Gallente / caldari warzone is nothing like that snd most timnes only ever reaches t3 for oneside and maybe t1-2 dipping for the losing side but constantly fought over. Yes they have some farmers im not saying they dont but they dont effect the day to day stuff even a quarter as much as the opposite warzone
Also most LP comes from missions any farmer worth thier salt wouldnt be in plex, the problem is nothing like it was maybe 2 to 3 years ago you seem to have old information
Your last comments showed exactly how out of touch you are with the demographic and have only listened to what your goon friends have told you who have farm alts in minnie / amarr
so everything is ok, gal-cal is healthy and nobody gives a **** about amar-min peasants... |
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 14:53:42 -
[170] - Quote
pretty much
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
|
|
Aves Asio
51
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 15:02:52 -
[171] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:... At some point it becomes more profitable for alts to be on the "losing" side. And then the pendulum swings. Farmers have the power to swing the pendulum and to keep it in the air for a long time. This is an issue. Ofc you cant stop the farmers but we should limit their impact on the rest of us. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 15:03:09 -
[172] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Darth Magic wrote:This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.
Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation. The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone. I'm not sure it does.People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them. People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing. The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it. I know it does because I've been on both ends of the stick and have had these sorts of discussions with the main content creators in my militia for the past several years.
Care to explain it then?
It seems to me that those who care most about LP rewards are the rabbit plexers. Perhaps I'm coming from a different perspective as someone who's income isn't primarily from FW... I only really come to FW space for PvP opportunities. If I'm plexing... I'm doing so because I wan't to control the engagement range with whoever comes into the plex with me. The tier isn't much of a factor.
Those who've actually engaged in combat with me don't seem to be caring much about it either... which is why I'm confused in you saying the Tier gives a reason to push for action. It doesn't feel like it to me (though I'll admit my experience is limited).
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 16:54:43 -
[173] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
Care to explain it then?
It seems to me that those who care most about LP rewards are the rabbit plexers. Perhaps I'm coming from a different perspective as someone who's income isn't primarily from FW... I only really come to FW space for PvP opportunities. If I'm plexing... I'm doing so because I wan't to control the engagement range with whoever comes into the plex with me. The tier isn't much of a factor.
Those who've actually engaged in combat with me don't seem to be caring much about it either... which is why I'm confused in you saying the Tier gives a reason to push for action. It doesn't feel like it to me (though I'll admit my experience is limited).
If you're interested in just pvp, my experience says that you want the tier level as low as possible. That leads to more pvp because the other side thinks it's winning.
But it's not a "farm" OR "fight" question. It's a "farm while you fight" question.
wrt tier levels - when enough of our guys want to make more LP, we boost the tiers. When we want to maximize the isk/lp we lower the tier. When we want to capture systems, we try to boost it. When we feel like the warzone is getting a bit out of hand, we'll decide to boost it too. On the rare occasion where there's an opportunity to take the entire warzone, we'll boost it as high as we can. In general, however, you don't want to boost the Tier levels for no reason because you'll crash the FW LP market.
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
|
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:09:10 -
[174] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on.
Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash.
I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:11:37 -
[175] - Quote
[quote=Suitonia The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. [/quote]
Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP.
Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min.
So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5.
This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since they, by definition have no problem with the isk they are making. |
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
642
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:24:39 -
[176] - Quote
Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on. Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash. I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.
We might be able to give you some suggestions about how to find/get PVP if you post with your main. I assume this isn't it since it has never destroyed a ship and has only lost 1.
JUSTK is recruiting
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 17:37:40 -
[177] - Quote
Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on. Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash. I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me. Capturing the right systems does. In general, the more the other side decides they care about a given system, and the more they are active in your TZ, the larger volume of fights.
If the other side doesn't care, then there's nothing you can do about it and you're not going to get fights. But that fact applies to every other aspect of this game as well. |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
270
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 19:32:57 -
[178] - Quote
To be fair though XG, when we're pushing tiers, we're rarely going after systems that will give us meaningful fights. Every home system we've sieged in the past few years (correct me if I'm wrong) has been for reasons other than pushing the tier for economic reasons. It's almost exclusively been about bragging rights or creating content. If you're trying to push your tier up, you're going for the backwoods systems that no one really cares about, because that's the most efficient way of doing it.
I think the current FW mechanics are the best we've ever had, but that's a really low bar and I think they need to be improved. Cal/Gal isn't as bad as Min/Amarr because of cultural issues, but at it's heart it's still not very healthy in terms of game mechanics. We just have a little more group loyalty over here, barring a couple corps over in Min/Amarr FW. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 19:51:01 -
[179] - Quote
Scialt welcome to the huge club of players who joined fw and wondered wtf is this.
Nobody cares about the vast majority of systems and nobody has for many years. That is because you best win sov by running away.
You do have to choose between farming or fighting if you want to be halfway efficient at either. That is why the top vp gainers for a day or a week are almost always flying stabbed or empty ships.
Don't let Crosi and XG make you disbelieve what you see with your own eyes.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Suitonia wrote: The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick.
Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP. Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min. So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5. This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since, by virtue of their existence, they have no problem with the isk they are making its easy to exclude them from consideration. [insult to suitonia removed]
I don't think that the fw pays too much. But if you just wanted isk you would be foolish to spend allot of time plexing at tier one when you can plex at a higher tier and simply hold onto your lp until the market swings your way. Minmatar are at tier 1 and they can not get 2k lp for buy orders for any items the other stores don't have.
To talk about this in depth would mean going into disparates in the lp store etc. Its pretty clear Gallente have an excellent lp store (eg. nomens buy orders are less than half those of navy vexors yet we still see 50% more vexors being sold. and lets not even look at the huge disparity for lol navy caracals and ospreys.) of and for the longest time Gallente had the hardest fw missions which meant that there aren't as many people with as much lp ready to crash the market.
So it is not surprising their lp store has not flattened out like so many others. But even if there is some slight fluctuation based on tier level there is no reason any of the farmers must sell when the market is low. So of course large numbers of farmers are going to go with the feast instead of the stick and gain huge amounts of sov for the winning side.
To say that since the farmers don't mind the amount of isk they receive, we can ignore them, demonstrates you do not understand the problems so many others see with faction war.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1390
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 19:58:56 -
[180] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Scialt welcome to the huge club of players who joined fw and wondered wtf is this. Nobody cares about the vast majority of systems and nobody has for many years. That is because you best win sov by running away. You do have to choose between farming or fighting if you want to be halfway efficient at either. That is why the top vp gainers for a day or a week are almost always flying stabbed or empty ships. Don't let Crosi and XG make you disbelieve what you see with your own eyes. Crosi Wesdo wrote:Suitonia wrote: The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick.
Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP. Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min. So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5. This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since, by virtue of their existence, they have no problem with the isk they are making its easy to exclude them from consideration. [insult to suitonia removed] I don't think that the fw pays too much. But if you just wanted isk you would be foolish to spend allot of time plexing at tier one when you can plex at a higher tier and simply hold onto your lp until the market swings your way. Minmatar are at tier 1 and they can not get 2k lp for buy orders for any items the other stores don't have. To talk about this in depth would mean going into disparates in the lp store etc. Its pretty clear Gallente have an excellent lp store (eg. nomens buy orders are less than half those of navy vexors yet we still see 50% more vexors being sold. and lets not even look at the huge disparity for lol navy caracals and ospreys.) of and for the longest time Gallente had the hardest fw missions which meant that there aren't as many people with as much lp ready to crash the market. So it is not surprising their lp store has not flattened out like so many others. But even if there is some slight fluctuation based on tier level there is no reason any of the farmers must sell when the market is low. So of course large numbers of farmers are going to go with the feast instead of the stick and gain huge amounts of sov for the winning side. To say that since the farmers don't mind the amount of isk they receive, we can ignore them, demonstrates you do not understand the problems so many others see with faction war.
This is so true. I've been stuck selling datacores for god knows how long since our faction ships except the hookbill suck since lolmissiles. CCPlz buff caldari/missiles.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2974
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 20:55:33 -
[181] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:To be fair though XG, when we're pushing tiers, we're rarely going after systems that will give us meaningful fights. Every home system we've sieged in the past few years (correct me if I'm wrong) has been for reasons other than pushing the tier for economic reasons. It's almost exclusively been about bragging rights or creating content. If you're trying to push your tier up, you're going for the backwoods systems that no one really cares about, because that's the most efficient way of doing it.
I think the current FW mechanics are the best we've ever had, but that's a really low bar and I think they need to be improved. Cal/Gal isn't as bad as Min/Amarr because of cultural issues, but at it's heart it's still not very healthy in terms of game mechanics. We just have a little more group loyalty over here, barring a couple corps over in Min/Amarr FW. You can tune it though. If you want massive levels of fights you attack a home system. If you want moderate levels of fights you attack a less densely populated system, or a system one-two jumps from a home system. Or you attack a system populated by pirates. etc... |
Julius Foederatus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
270
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 21:06:39 -
[182] - Quote
But it's not really an organic system. It doesn't facilitate content on its own merits, it's something we have to game to get the content we want. If people have the option of opting out, they always will, sooner or later, and it results in stagnation. I don't think that people should be able to opt into FW but opt out of the basic mechanics. That's just a bad system from a design perspective, because it ultimately results in apathy and death. People respond to game mechanics. Farmers stopped farming offensive plexes so much when CCP put in the rat changes. We could easily change the system to one where people were basically required to PVP or drop out, but for whatever reason, CCP is afraid of consequences for players. It would be more difficult to enable the losing side to stay in the game, but there are ways to do it.
Regardless of the solutions, I think we have to acknowledge that FW mechanics are not in a healthy state. Citadels are the most immediate problem, but the game wasn't in great shape before them, and it won't be after they're fixed unless CCP starts putting in some changes. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 22:01:18 -
[183] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:...We could easily change the system to one where people were basically required to PVP or drop out, but for whatever reason, CCP is afraid of consequences for players. It would be more difficult to enable the losing side to stay in the game, but there are ways to do it.
...
I have thought that perhaps CCP has been hesitant to put in pvp changes they promised because they want faction war to be very new player friendly.
Its my opinion that this is a mistake. I think FW can be new player accessible but the pvp in low is sec is often the most challenging pvp for the typical individual pilot. Lots of Null sec pvp tends to involve anchoring up and just following broadcasts and is in many ways much more new player friendly. (of course these are some generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions to what I am saying here)
I think the success of horde, karma, test, brave etc. should more then adequately demonstrate to ccp that fw (and low sec generally) does not need to serve as a stepping stone to null sec. And in fact it is not going to be well suited for that purpose. In many ways the step up to low sec is higher than the step to null sec for a typical new player that needs allot of hand holding.
Thats not to say fw is not a great place for new players looking for pvp. I am just saying that ccp should make each form of pvp unique and awesome instead of trying to make one a lite version of the other. (often the lite version is a broken version) New players are a big asset for fw corps just like they are big asset for null sec corps. So the player corps will help new players get the hang of the situation even if it is pvp intensive.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.06 23:37:34 -
[184] - Quote
The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all minor of abuse or would have to be so toned down and convoluted that no one would be able to support their legitimate PvP.
The pve element we have now could benefit from some tweaks but is actually pretty close to optimal in terms of freedom of player choices and barrier to manipulate income and occupancy. |
Aves Asio
51
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 13:32:30 -
[185] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse ...
This is eve, everything will be abused for personal gain.
The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is because the devs arent competent enough to create a better system. Lets not make that stop us from demanding balance and improvements. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 15:47:27 -
[186] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse or would have to be so toned down and convoluted that no one would be able to support their legitimate PvP.
The pve element we have now could benefit from some tweaks but is actually pretty close to optimal in terms of freedom of player choices and barrier to manipulate income and occupancy.
I think your first statement is too vague. Yes it would be manipulated if ccp did something like give occupancy to the side that got the most fw kills in system or something dumb like that. But it is not the case that they can't make occupancy more about winning fights rather than running away. The sov system in null sec is not pve. And it is not abused either. It has other problems, but none of them are because the mechanic not having a "significant pve element."
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
44
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 16:31:30 -
[187] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on. Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash. I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me. We might be able to give you some suggestions about how to find/get PVP if you post with your main. I assume this isn't it since it has never destroyed a ship and has only lost 1.
Well that and the word "alt" in the name are probably good clues.
I don't really have a problem finding PvP. I just don't find it while plexing... I find it by cruising around FW space and looking for it. |
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
46
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 16:37:14 -
[188] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Scialt wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.
I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on. Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash. I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me. Capturing the right systems does. In general, the more the other side decides they care about a given system, and the more they are active in your TZ, the larger volume of fights. If the other side doesn't care, then there's nothing you can do about it and you're not going to get fights. But that dynamic applies to every other aspect of this game as well.
perhaps the main point of misunderstanding is I largely play FW in a solo capacity... not as part of organized corp fleets. I don't make choices about what systems to capture... someone just screams in militia chat about helping to take XXX system and I join in.
So all my responses should be qualified with "As a largely solo PvP and FW player". For me plexing generates way less pvp then hunting other war targets. And when I hunt targets it's not to interfere with their plexing or to plex the same site in return... I fight and leave (to repair and fight again).
It feels the same in the two militias I have alts in. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 17:04:44 -
[189] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse or would have to be so toned down and convoluted that no one would be able to support their legitimate PvP.
The pve element we have now could benefit from some tweaks but is actually pretty close to optimal in terms of freedom of player choices and barrier to manipulate income and occupancy. I think your first statement is too vague. Yes it would be manipulated if ccp did something like give occupancy to the side that got the most fw kills in a system, or something dumb like that. But it is not the case that they can't make occupancy more about winning fights rather than running away. The sov system in null sec is not pve. And it is not abused either. It has other problems, but none of them are because the mechanic does not have a "significant pve element."
Participating in the null sec sov system in no way pays isk or rewards LP. Its motivations can afford to be pvp only since there is no instant benefit from participating (or not so).
The desired design goals for FW is to be able to participate in PvP where possible, PvE as a gatekeeper in lou of PvP and all the time being able to make isk to support yourself without ratting/mining/DED and sanctums etc. The design goals of null are completely different so stating that null sov works differently is painfully stupid.
Im not convinced you spend a single second thinking about your responses. You have your free intel soap box, and even though there is no connection between the problem you see, the solution you propose and the outcome you imagine, you still tout the same nonsense.
Scialt wrote: I don't really have a problem finding PvP. I just don't find it while plexing... I find it by cruising around FW space and looking for it.
So you find it while other people are plexing. Working as intended. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 18:18:54 -
[190] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse or would have to be so toned down and convoluted that no one would be able to support their legitimate PvP.
The pve element we have now could benefit from some tweaks but is actually pretty close to optimal in terms of freedom of player choices and barrier to manipulate income and occupancy. I think your first statement is too vague. Yes it would be manipulated if ccp did something like give occupancy to the side that got the most fw kills in a system, or something dumb like that. But it is not the case that they can't make occupancy more about winning fights rather than running away. The sov system in null sec is not pve. And it is not abused either. It has other problems, but none of them are because the mechanic does not have a "significant pve element." Participating in the null sec sov system in no way pays isk or rewards LP. Its motivations can afford to be pvp only since there is no instant benefit from participating (or not so).
Just because it does not give instant lp or isk does not mean the motivations are not isk. They are.
Scialt wrote: I don't really have a problem finding PvP. I just don't find it while plexing... I find it by cruising around FW space and looking for it.
So you find it while other people are plexing. Working as intended.[/quote]
If you want a sov system that is mostly detatched from the actual combat then FW is working as intended.
It is questionable whether that is even the case. It seems to me that people just use the plexes to get fights and have some security against blobs. If I warp in on someone it is often the case that they will not bother finishing the plex even if they win. Like if I reship and come back they often won't be there and the plex will still have the same amount of time on the clock.
Often people will just see others on dscan and go in a plex to see if we can get a fight. But again people are not really concerned about gaining sov they are just looking for a convenient spot to fight. If people want to actually get sov for their faction then they don't fight but instead rabbit plex some alts.
I have given my reasons for the proposals I support. I and others have connected the dots for you and XG. I am not going to repeat the same answers to your questions.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
46
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Posted - 2017.03.07 18:24:40 -
[191] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Scialt wrote: I don't really have a problem finding PvP. I just don't find it while plexing... I find it by cruising around FW space and looking for it.
So you find it while other people are plexing. Working as intended.
Yes.
The point is that the LP/Plex/Tier system isn't the driver. It's having set locations where you know you have a good chance of finding fights at reasonable odds. I'd wager that the number of fights would in no way be impacted by any changes in how LP are awarded and Tier mechanics... simply because the people using FW for fights (as opposed to plexing and running when a fight comes) don't seem to care all that much about that stuff.
Heck, when I do run a plex in order to set engagement range on a fight, 95% of the fights seem to be neutrals anyway. It's clear they don't give a crap about LP... and as I warp away to fix my ship after the battle (or I'm dead)... I don't really care either.
My comments are based on the idea presented that fighting for higher tiers drives pvp in FW. It's not saying FW doesn't create PvP opportunities... it does. But it doesn't seem to me that those who are trying to win systems to increase the tier are driving PvP much. I don't think changes to LP awards will impact PvP in FW much at all. It will mainly impact those rabbit-plexing for LP. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 18:43:26 -
[192] - Quote
The LP/Plex/Tier system, along with the possibility of station lockouts, is exactly why you found your target in a plex. |
Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 18:47:25 -
[193] - Quote
Nice healthy debate as usual, some good ideas, some old ideas.
Again the consensus is farming can be deterred a bit and rewards and occupancy gain could be tweaked details to be worked out.
Elephant in the room I guess is in the OP's title, FW needs a CSM representative not sure if that is going to happen. I think as a goon and not in FW suitonia may be at the bottom of my vote preference as a just might make a difference but not over other faction war / low sec candidates.
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Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
642
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 18:48:21 -
[194] - Quote
There actually is a candidate from FW running, and it isn't Suitonia.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 19:17:09 -
[195] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The LP/Plex/Tier system, along with the possibility of station lockouts, is exactly why you found your target in a plex. Cearain wrote: Just because it does not give instant lp or isk does not mean the motivations are not isk. They are.
You must be truly dishonest. There is no mechanic in null sov that allows a young player to make themselves available for PvP and fit their ship accordingly, and at the same time make isk to support their losses. If you are conflating differed benefits of owning space after a pvp conquest where not a single participant generated anything of worth other than loot, then you are stupendously confused. Null and FW design goals, objectives and benefits are very different. If you want to make FW like null, so that all the income is passive of PvE, then thats a difference conversation. As it stands, they work in very different ways, which require a PvE element to prevent farmers running amok.
It doesn't matter whether the income is immediate or not. Its not a matter of conflating anything - it doesn't matter. And really if you want to make decent isk at plexing you should get alts rabbit plexing rather than trying to pvp. Like anything else look at what the good players fly. So if you want to get allot of solo kills look at a good solo pilot's killboard. If you want allot of lp or sov for your faction then look at the killboards of those who get capture the most plexes.
Bottom line is you really don't get a significant increase in isk from pvping in faction war. In fact you probably would do much better to be in Karma fleet where you buy one doctrine ship and then the alliance keeps buying you replacements. If you fly certain ships you even make a decent profit from your loses.
Typically the start up costs for making isk in null sec are a bit higher. I mean you need more than a stabbed t1 destroyer to make 100 mill isk per hour. Although even there sov null sec will give you access to pi that will far exceed fw plexing alts.
I just don't think you know enough about the game as a whole to put anything in perspective.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 19:23:37 -
[196] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The LP/Plex/Tier system, along with the possibility of station lockouts, is exactly why you found your target in a plex. Cearain wrote: Just because it does not give instant lp or isk does not mean the motivations are not isk. They are.
You must be truly dishonest. There is no mechanic in null sov that allows a young player to make themselves available for PvP and fit their ship accordingly, and at the same time make isk to support their losses. If you are conflating differed benefits of owning space after a pvp conquest where not a single participant generated anything of worth other than loot, then you are stupendously confused. Null and FW design goals, objectives and benefits are very different. If you want to make FW like null, so that all the income is passive of PvE, then thats a difference conversation. As it stands, they work in very different ways, which require a PvE element to prevent farmers running amok. It doesn't matter whether the income is immediate or not. Its not a matter of conflating anything - it doesn't matter. And really if you want to make decent isk at plexing you should get alts rabbit plexing rather than trying to pvp. Like anything else look at what the good players fly. So if you want to get allot of solo kills look at a good solo pilot's killboard. If you want allot of lp or sov for your faction then look at the killboards of those who get capture the most plexes. Bottom line is you really don't get a significant increase in isk from pvping in faction war. In fact you probably would do much better to be in Karma fleet where you buy one doctrine ship and then the alliance keeps buying you replacements. If you fly certain ships you even make a decent profit from your loses. Typically the start up costs for making isk in null sec are a bit higher. I mean you need more than a stabbed t1 destroyer to make 100 mill isk per hour. Although even there sov null sec will give you access to pi that will far exceed fw plexing alts. I just don't think you know enough about the game as a whole to put anything in perspective.
PI doest effect anones ability to dock. Null sov doesnt reward anything without then taking further steps towards PvE once the grind is over.
There is no comparison between FW and null sov and i for one am grateful for that.
The more you use Null sov as an example, given that it doesnt offer the advantages that FW does (at the cost of being purely PvP, while the isk benefits are almost purely PvE once the conquest is done), the more embarrassed i feel for you. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.07 19:31:51 -
[197] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:There actually is a candidate from FW running, and it isn't Suitonia.
No offense he may be good, but he seems to be holding his cards close to his chest as to what he would actually do on csm.
He says: "Current warzone control method and system flipping mechanics are long due for a second look."
What does he actually intend to tell ccp in this regard? What exactly needs a second look? Does he want to do away with plexes? Maybe I will like his ideas maybe they will be the opposite of what I would like. How can anyone support this?
Its like saying "we should take a second look at our country's economic policies." Which ones? Trade policies? if so with which countries, Tax policies? Ok with what in mind? Raising taxes or lower them or what? etc.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2975
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 00:26:06 -
[198] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse ... This is eve, everything will be abused for personal gain. The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is because the devs arent competent enough to create a better system. Lets not make that stop us from demanding balance and improvements. You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what? |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1501
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 02:07:58 -
[199] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Aves Asio wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is that a purely PvP mechanic would be open to any and all manor of abuse ... This is eve, everything will be abused for personal gain. The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is because the devs arent competent enough to create a better system. Lets not make that stop us from demanding balance and improvements. You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what?
If someone shows up, then run away.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Aves Asio
51
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 11:38:37 -
[200] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what?
You are assuming something that i have never suggested.
I dont have the answers, my theorycrafting skill is too low to solve all the problems in fw. I can only point out the broken parts and ask for improvements, just like you.
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Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 14:02:17 -
[201] - Quote
What about this: make it about spending time in the plex (obviously) but not about an explicit timer. Other activities have been improved by being replaced by minigames that rewarded an active attitude, so let's make the conquer of an offensive plex some sort of "minigame" where you have to spend time by actively doing something instead of waiting bored a timer to expire.
For example: something based on deployables (something similar to mobile depots but cheaper and without reinforcement state). Let's say that an offensive plexer have to sequentially deploy five of these ministructures in the plex and every of these structures have a 60 sec deploy time, then you have to move to the beacon to "activate it " (another 60 sec timer) and then you can start to deploy the next ministructure. You can also force to spread these structures by imposing limits to where they can be deployed (for example 20km each other and the beacon but no more than 100km from it). The ministructures are very vulnerable when deploying, but when activated they have enough HPs to resist an average ship of the size of the complex for 2 minutes. If the attackers succeed in deploying 5 of these structures, the complex is conquered and every player that deployed one of these gains and amount of LPs (for example 2000 LPs each for a novice complex). For bigger complex, the ministructures must be bigger and also slower to deploy (and more expensive).
The defenders simply have to destroy these structures. The more DPS or the more ships, the faster they can destroy them. They also gains LPs from destroying them like they already do from destroying enemy ships. So the defense of a system is more patrol-and-destroy than wait-here-spinning-bored.
Opinions? |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1502
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 15:34:04 -
[202] - Quote
Hamish
I appreciate the attempt but wouldn't you agree that sounds like busy work and shooting structures is not much better than than not shooting structures (if its better at all).
It seems to me we have already figured out how to make fighting for sov fun and ccp promised to do it. We just need to get them to keep their promises.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2975
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 15:47:35 -
[203] - Quote
Aves Asio wrote:X Gallentius wrote:You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what? You are assuming something that i have never suggested. I dont have the answers, my theorycrafting skill is too low to solve all the problems in fw. I can only point out the broken parts and ask for improvements, just like you. Just pointing out the fundamental flaw of "pvp-only" solutions for FW, in fact the entire pvp aspect of Eve Online.
There is no requirement either side shows up, and when they don't the game is really boring.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1502
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 15:58:04 -
[204] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Aves Asio wrote:X Gallentius wrote:You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what? You are assuming something that i have never suggested. I dont have the answers, my theorycrafting skill is too low to solve all the problems in fw. I can only point out the broken parts and ask for improvements, just like you. Just pointing out the fundamental flaw of "pvp-only" solutions for FW, in fact the entire pvp aspect of Eve Online. There is no requirement either side shows up, and when they don't the game is really boring.
It never hurts to let them know where they should show up. Just saying.
I know you think no one wants to show up and defend plexes throughout the warzone but I can tell you there are allot of players who would. Its just not feasible to ask them to randomly wander around looking for them.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:40:45 -
[205] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hamish
I appreciate the attempt but wouldn't you agree that sounds like busy work and shooting structures is not much better than than not shooting structures (if its better at all).
The mechanic should also provide a motive for the defenders to stay in the complex for a bit, or it would be unbalanced. The main difference would be that you can exchange time for damage. So if you need 2 mins for an average ship to destroy the ministructure, 5 pilots would do that in 24 sec. That's the time to kill a current rat. So this mechanic encourages collaboration between pilots (something that was penalized with the new LP system*) and also avoids situations where numbers are clearly in favor of one side, but anywaythey have to sit here and wait.
* I played FW in 2008-2010 and then you invited other people to the plex so everybody could get the standing. And that was neat. |
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
63
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:47:07 -
[206] - Quote
One of the things that I want changed with FW is the way you deplex. Deplexing can be one of the most boring, uninteresting and disengaging things in EVE. You just sit there, for 10-39 minutes, babysitting an NPC.
Yes, sometimes there are fights. But for the most part, many players that I talk to, have no enthusiasm for deplexing. They just want to get out there and blow **** up. At least with oplexing you "get" to blow up an NPC ship once in awhile. But I find it hard to motivate my corp mates to deplex. When we need to deplex a system, it sounds like a chore to them and that's definitely not what playing a game is about. However, if we don't deplex, we'll lose our system and our assets will get locked inside the station. So it's one of those grinds that just becomes part of your due diligence if you are running a corp in FW. |
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
643
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:20:06 -
[207] - Quote
It's been enough pages that I think the list is due for a repost:
Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.
Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful system upgrades Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts. Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers). Citadel problem.
JUSTK is recruiting
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2975
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:21:18 -
[208] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Aves Asio wrote:X Gallentius wrote:You can't have a pvp element if one side decides to not show up. Then what? You are assuming something that i have never suggested. I dont have the answers, my theorycrafting skill is too low to solve all the problems in fw. I can only point out the broken parts and ask for improvements, just like you. Just pointing out the fundamental flaw of "pvp-only" solutions for FW, in fact the entire pvp aspect of Eve Online. There is no requirement either side shows up, and when they don't the game is really boring. It never hurts to let them know where they should show up. Just saying. I know you think no one wants to show up and defend plexes throughout the warzone but I can tell you there are allot of players who would. Its just not feasible to ask them to randomly wander around looking for them. Please stop. Your filter tells everybody where people who won't engage are located. Big freaking deal. You're not going to get fights out of them.
And please, somebody on these forums, commit to chasing rabbit plexers so that Cearain can be proven right that at least ONE player will chase rabbits in the warzone.
We all know where to go to get fights. And we don't need a filter to do it. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 19:14:35 -
[209] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Please stop. Your filter tells everybody where people who won't engage are located. Big freaking deal. You're not going to get fights out of them.
And please, somebody on these forums, commit to chasing rabbit plexers so that Cearain can be proven right that at least ONE player will chase rabbits in the warzone.
We all know where to go to get fights. And we don't need a filter to do it.
The intel tool would tell you where people are running plexes. The fact that you interpret that as "Your filter tells everybody where people who won't engage are located" speaks volumes about how you really think fw sov works.
Plenty of people have posted about chasing rabbits. CCP even designed a ship with an extra point for people who chase fw rabbits!
Are you trying to say no one ever chases them? When you go into a plex and see an enemy 40k away do you not chase them to get in point range? Or do you think well its a rabbit so I won't chase it? Its difficult to understand what you are even saying here.
The intel tool is not just to get fights. The intel tool is so that you can defend complexes and protect and gain sov more efficiently through pvp.
Thanatos Marathon wrote: FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis.
How would the standing work? If you didn't have the standing would you just be kicked from or unable to join the corp? If everyone in the corp took a standings hit below acceptable levels would the corp then be kicked from militia?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Thanatos Marathon
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
643
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 20:12:01 -
[210] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis.
How would the standing work? If you didn't have the standing would you just be kicked from or unable to join the corp? If everyone in the corp took a standings hit below acceptable levels would the corp then be kicked from militia?
That is really an implementation question. One thing that was brought up long ago was the potential that individuals would enroll in FW instead of entire corps (or perhaps both could enroll and it would have different effects).
Idealy individual standings would affect individual pilots. If someone is below required standings - kicked from FW one way or the other makes sense. However, we would need a lot to be done around standings before you would be able to implement this because currently repairing standings is an unholy nightmare.
JUSTK is recruiting
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 20:18:52 -
[211] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Edit: Crosi just because I have a rudimentary understanding of null sec and therefore can see how fw can offer something other than null sec lite, that does not mean I want fw to be the same as null sec. Its the opposite.
Um, you cant just swap sides in an argument. You were the one calling similarities between null and FW. I was the one saying there were fundemental design differences which prevent FW from adopting a purely PvP mechanic.
The only way FW would be able to run a purely PvP occupancy mechanic without unacceptable abuse is if there was no ISK reward or the rewards were so small that most players would have to go outside FW to PvE to support their PvP like they do most everywhere else, including null.
Cearain wrote:Most of the changes you support makes fw similar to null. You want a more binary system where people fight over only a few systems. Find out who can get the most firepower in a system or 2 and then the rest is mop up. That is null sec lite.
I never said i want a system where people fight over only a few systems. I observed correctly that people fight over things that matter to them on one level or another.
Your proposed free intel in no way extends peoples interests into previously uninteresting systems. It offers no incentive for people to go chase farmers, and most pvpers are already aware where farmers are anyway.
Unlike my suggestion, which does incentivise PvPers to attack farmers by removing WCS from plexes and as such rebalance the farmer/pvper equation to make it more likely that a pvper can disrupt a farmers efficiency.
Cearain wrote:And in faction war the main isk gains happen after you gain sov and therefore gain tiers. What you describe where people actually would make isk by winning sov was the cash out system. Once the occupancy was established you were paid immediately with items from the lp store. (if you didn't help with the push you won't have any lp to cash out) Now after you gain the sov people join the winning side so they get more lp from their pve. Just like you describe happens in null sec.
I think you must be talking about someone elses idea because this doesnt resemble a response to anything i have ever posted. Farmers make ISK at every stage of the FW pendulum swing. My farming alts made their most isk Oplexing in tier 2 basing out of a POS in Uuna, in an area where caldari wanted to keep low contested rates. Therefore whatever damage i did the previous session, was undone while i was away so it was a perpetual LP faucet.
And all the people interested in those systems were aware of my presence, they didnt require any intel tools. Got lots of kills while protecting my alts those months. |
Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 21:05:33 -
[212] - Quote
Boozbaz wrote:One of the things that I want changed with FW is the way you deplex. Deplexing can be one of the most boring, uninteresting and disengaging things in EVE. You just sit there, for 10-39 minutes, babysitting an NPC...
I can't agree more.
My proposal doesn't have deplexing at all. The only way to prevent an offensive plexing attempt is to actively engage with the plexer/plexers. If nobody is attacking nobody has to defend it, so no more time wasted deplexing. This also means the end of AFK plexing, or plexing with alts with unfitted frigates or with stabs. It has no sense mechanically or economical gain.
In offensive plexing the incentive preventing them to run freely is the money (or better: LPs) the ministrutures cost. You can't avoid for them to run, but you can punish them (at least a bit) for doing so, That prevent tactics like rabbit plexing (unless you want to risk to lose more money/LPs that you can earn).
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Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 21:13:30 -
[213] - Quote
Cearain wrote:The intel tool would tell you where people are running plexes.
The tool you want already exists. It's called "your fellow capsuleers". Ask around you and they give you the war targets you want.
I can tell you that CCP is not going to waste time fixing problems that are not their problems but players problems.
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Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
50
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 21:40:02 -
[214] - Quote
Hamish Nuwen wrote:Boozbaz wrote:One of the things that I want changed with FW is the way you deplex. Deplexing can be one of the most boring, uninteresting and disengaging things in EVE. You just sit there, for 10-39 minutes, babysitting an NPC... I can't agree more. My proposal doesn't have deplexing at all. The only way to prevent an offensive plexing attempt is to actively engage with the plexer/plexers. If nobody is attacking nobody has to defend it, so no more time wasted deplexing. This also means the end of AFK plexing, or plexing with alts with unfitted frigates or with stabs. It has no sense mechanically or economical gain. In offensive plexing the incentive preventing them to run freely is the money (or better: LPs) the ministrutures cost. You can't avoid for them to run, but you can punish them (at least a bit) for doing so, That prevent tactics like rabbit plexing (unless you want to risk to lose more money/LPs that you can earn).
Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.
If the opposition offensive plexes a system my militia is defending by 10%... how do I get that back to where it was? Or can the defenders in a system only possibly hold the level where it is and never reverse it (until it flips)?
Seems like that wouldn't quite work. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2975
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 22:29:03 -
[215] - Quote
Scialt wrote:
Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.
If the opposition offensive plexes a system my militia is defending by 10%... how do I get that back to where it was? Or can the defenders in a system only possibly hold the level where it is and never reverse it (until it flips)?
Seems like that wouldn't quite work.
You could do something with the "dual timers" approach. 1. Every plex is an enemy plex (Serpentis rats, for example). 2. Winner is the side that reaches a time value first. 3. The solar system will yield control to whichever faction does the best job of stopping the pirates in system (the ones who close the most plexes). (Same sov type system as now). 4. A system falls into a "lawless" state if not enough plexes are captured by either side over the course of a week. (Optional)
Then you'd have warp-core stabbed/afk offensive plexers going around capturing plexes in backwater systems instead of guys in unfit frigs.
In reality, players will use the minimum amount of ship required to capture plexes, and they'll use alts in locations where it's boring (there's no chance of pvp). |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 23:11:05 -
[216] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Um, you cant just swap sides in an argument. You were the one calling similarities between null and FW. I was the one saying there were fundemental design differences which prevent FW from adopting a purely PvP mechanic..
Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.
Cearain wrote:Most of the changes you support makes fw similar to null. You want a more binary system where people fight over only a few systems. Find out who can get the most firepower in a system or 2 and then the rest is mop up. That is null sec lite.
I never said i want a system where people fight over only a few systems. I observed correctly that people fight over things that matter to them on one level or another.[/quote]
And with station lockouts combined with the terrible sov system we have (both of which you like) groups tend to lump together so that the dplexing task can be spread out. As boozbaz and many many others have said in the past, having to dplex after the rabbits come is a big negative. This leads to large areas of empty space and just a few systems fought over. It would be better if ccp made it easier to actually fight over larger areas. That is what beter intel tools would do.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Your proposed free intel in no way extends peoples interests into previously uninteresting systems. It offers no incentive for people to go chase farmers, and most pvpers are already aware where farmers are anyway.
Unlike my suggestion, which does incentivise PvPers to attack farmers by removing WCS from plexes and as such rebalance the farmer/pvper equation to make it more likely that a pvper can disrupt a farmers efficiency.
We don't need to incentivize it any more than it is already. People already do it. It will just make it more efficient. IGÇÖm not against disallowing wcs in plexes but I doubt it will really change much. They will still just wap off which they do already.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:The fact that you interpret that as "Your filter tells everybody where people who won't engage are located" speaks volumes about how you really think fw sov works. So some peripheral guy with a solo perspective and some bad ideas that in no obvious way solve the issues he sees, is questioning the understanding of one of the most active participants in FW occupancy since its very first iteration long before there was any ISK to be made, and pretty much every stage since? Classic cerain.
IGÇÖm all for believing him except he is contradicting himself. He is now saying any tool that tells us where plexes are being captured will just "tell everybody where people who won't engage are located." This logically implies that everyone in plexes are "people who won't engage." Yet earlier he was pointing at his corps high vp and kills to prove those who capture plexes also pvp.
He should at least be honest and admit some of the people in plexes will pvp. And this tool will help them get more pvp faster.
And yes I fly mostly solo as do many other players now and who have left. Obviously your implicit view that CCP should ignore solo players and only try to keep people who have the time to maintain friendships in a computer game is one I reject. If I had the time to foster friendships online I would likely be in null sec, not using the horrible null sec lite mechanic.
Hamish You say other players have this intel but they obviously donGÇÖt. Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesnGÇÖt mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 23:32:40 -
[217] - Quote
Scialt wrote:Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.
Oh, yes I forgot this, it would decay automatically with time. The upper the tier of the system, the faster it will decay. So the defenders would have a good incentive to improve the system tier and help with some "passive defense", and attackers would try to degrade it to facilitate the conquest.
(A more hardcore approach would be that in systems with no tier it will not decay at all).
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Hamish Nuwen
Escuadron Federal de Asalto
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 23:45:38 -
[218] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Hamish You say other players have this intel but they obviously donGÇÖt. Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me?
First requeriment of any type of army: reconnaissance. If your militia don't have that, then you guys have a more serious problem that some plexers.
Cearain wrote:You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information.
No, you don't. You let other people play this game too. It's called factional (factions=groups) warfare for a reason.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 00:15:39 -
[219] - Quote
Hamish Nuwen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hamish You say other players have this intel but they obviously donGÇÖt. Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me?
First requeriment of any type of army: reconnaissance. If your militia don't have that, then you guys have a more serious problem that some plexers. Cearain wrote:You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. No, you don't. You let other people play this game too. It's called factional (factions=groups) warfare for a reason.
Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2976
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 13:37:31 -
[220] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.
There's not enough pvp in FW low sec - especially compared to other areas of the game? |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 15:57:54 -
[221] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.
There's not enough pvp in FW low sec - especially compared to other areas of the game?
First, thank you for actually quoting what I said. It is frustratrating when you only paraphrase me as to what you think I said. Here people can easily read what I said and decide for themselves whether what I said is what you suggest I said.
Is there enough pvp in FW? No not really. Is it more than other areas? Possibly. Jita has the most kills. Does that count? And if you say no jita doesn't count then I will ask why. And the answer will be likely to do with the quality of the type of pvp. And I will agree with you. But I will also point out that just looking at the map of fw space the systems with the most kills are those systems that have a high sec gate. Which means allot of those kills likely has little to do with faction war.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#kills24
Moreover in looking at the map as whole we would see the mean system likely has less than 1 kill per hour.
I would also say that even if we say FW space is the best space in eve for pvp (a view I hold btw) that bar is not that high. FW is supposed to be this huge crazy war with tons of cheapish ships dying by the thousands. EVE could really use a system like that. Im not going to say EVE "needs" a system like that because I am not privvy to their finances, but clearly EVE could use a system that is not stagnant. WWB was great but now its over. Are we going to hope null sec will keep people interested? People will continue to amass billions of isk but what are they going to do with it?
But anyway raw number of kills is not really the problem I am seeing. And if all of a sudden the number of kills in amamake and tama (the two fw systems with the most kills) triples that does not mean fw sov is any better.
If CCP let players run plex like structures where they can litterally make a billion isk per hour per alt in aridia for a five months. (like they did when inferno came out) I bet we will see the amount of pvp there pick up. Even if there is no sov attached to the plexes.
I am not really saying fw as a whole is broken just the sov system. It needs the tweaks ccp promised. But until they do the sov system is broken. But IMO the sov aspect is what gives fw an overarching meaning. Otherwise its just random pvp like in jita or tama.
IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2976
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 17:10:59 -
[222] - Quote
Cearain wrote: IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?
Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning."
It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 17:54:54 -
[223] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?
Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning." It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself.
It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.
CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.
Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 20:04:20 -
[224] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.
You have not even established the reasoning as to why free intel will result in pvpers suddenly being interested in chasing farmers. I have suggested a far more effective solution to that.
I am indifferent to timer rollbacks, i think plex timer resets after a certain time would be less disruptive to all styles of plex warfare.
Cearain wrote:And with station lockouts combined with the terrible sov system we have (both of which you like) groups tend to lump together so that the dplexing task can be spread out. As boozbaz and many many others have said in the past, having to dplex after the rabbits come is a big negative. This leads to large areas of empty space and just a few systems fought over. It would be better if ccp made it easier to actually fight over larger areas. That is what beter intel tools would do.
This is the entire problem with you cerain. Im pretty sure you are just not very intelligent. If evasion farmers are the reason FW pilots group up in a social game and live together, they how do you explain the tendancy for groups outside of faction war grouping up in large numbers? Is that also a defence against farmers? Or is it just the first convenient explanation you can think of and as such didnt need to think it through any farther?
Cerain wrote:We don't need to incentivize it any more than it is already. People already do it. It will just make it more efficient. IGÇÖm not against disallowing wcs in plexes but I doubt it will really change much. They will still just wap off which they do already.
People already know where farmers are. They dont go there because they are often watching local and scan. Those that arnt are also WCS. So removing that last line of defence can reward the effort of engaging them. Therefore, it encourages engagement, where there would otherwise be very little reason to do so. After all, i dont care that they are making isk, or that they are attacking a system i dont care about. If i did, i would do something about it. No intel required.
Cearain wrote: IGÇÖm all for believing him except he is contradicting himself. He is now saying any tool that tells us where plexes are being captured will just "tell everybody where people who won't engage are located." This logically implies that everyone in plexes are "people who won't engage." Yet earlier he was pointing at his corps high vp and kills to prove those who capture plexes also pvp.
He should at least be honest and admit some of the people in plexes will pvp. And this tool will help them get more pvp faster.
Yet another example in a long line of comments that can be filed under 'Cerain sees someone use an exaggerated argument in order to make a point, then treats it as word-for-word literal, even if taking it literally would be absurd.' |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 20:10:47 -
[225] - Quote
Cearain wrote:It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.
Thats a great comparison between EVE and that great open ended sandbox game, basketball. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2976
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 22:54:14 -
[226] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?
Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning." It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself. It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points. CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary. Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren. Nope. It's a sandbox game. While you go on endlessley about Tier levels and keeping score, the rest of us choose to understand the fundamental truth of this sandbox game: Each of us chooses our own victory conditions.
That old lady in the 13th Warrior go it right: "Wars are won in the will."
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 23:19:09 -
[227] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?
Your scoreboard is broken. You believe the number of captured systems over the entire theater equates to "winning." It's like Hannibal capturing vast swaths of land but not Rome itself. It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points. CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary. Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren. Nope. It's a sandbox game. While you go on endlessley about Tier levels and keeping score, the rest of us choose to understand the fundamental truth of this sandbox game: Each of us chooses our own victory conditions. That old lady in the 13th Warrior go it right: "Wars are won in the will."
Im not sure I go on endlessly about tiers. I can take of leave tiers altogether. But whatever.
You brought up scoreboards. I agree people can pick their own goals. But we should also acknowledge some goals are actually in the game some aren't. Getting 10 points for a slam dunk is not a rule of basketball and there is no "Rome" in FW.
As far as wills winning wars - I guess that is true so long as you choose whatever victory conditions you want.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Stormin
Cafe EVE
9
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 23:28:38 -
[228] - Quote
I have a suggestion for improving FW specifically, this could also make pirate/lowsec life more interesting in general. Make FW sovereignty dependent on adjacent systems sovereignty. It doesn't make sense to me that it's possible to bypass an entire military's territory. It's not possible to use enemy faction stations, and when flying through enemy faction HS the militia announces your prescience and peruses you. Why shouldn't conquered lowsec space have an NPC militia guarding the systems? Instead a system deep within a factions control is left with 1 measly ship not worth a damn. There's no sense of actually conquering the space for a faction.
Currently the most efficient way to raise a factions LP tiers is to travel into backwater systems and plex uncontested. In general this is boring game play from a PVE and PVP perspective. This change would prevent that from being possible. Each faction would be forced to progressively move deeper into the opposing factions territory, with very clear boarders and points of conflict. In addition, afk defensive plexing wouldn't be a thing anymore. Systems requiring defense will likely be under siege.
This change would also make FW missions more viable, due to the increased safety of a factions backwater systems. Creating an incentive to guard systems with high quality NPC hubs. It could also provide good hunting ground for pirates since they would not be bound to the same military rules as those enrolled in FW.
I've included an image below with blue arrows showing where offensive plexing would be possible, and red X's showing where it would not be. I think it also makes sense to always allow for offensive plexing in systems connected to that factions HS.
TL:DR - Only allow offensive plexing in systems connected to systems that faction already controls.
http://i.imgur.com/9Srz3r1.jpg |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 02:47:28 -
[229] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote: Its not like they either are completely the same or completely different. There can be similarities. And anyway you have not at all indicated how making fw sov more pvp oriented by rollbacks and/or real time intel would be abused. So your whole vague claim is irrelevant to the proposals under discussion.
You have not even established the reasoning as to why free intel will result in pvpers suddenly being interested in chasing farmers. I have suggested a far more effective solution to that.
1) There quite a few players people who do chase farmers. You know they actually play the sov game ccp gave us. They would be much better off if farmers could not hide. If you are trying to prevent rabbits in a say a cluster of 10 systems then knowing exactly where they are will be helpful. This comibined with rollbacks will make rabbit plexing less efficient.
2) Then there are many players like me. I go roaming around looking for players in plexes. If they are there and in my engagement envelope I fight them. If they are a farmer I will chase them around a bit.
Lots of players do this. Not just me.
Now here is the thing. Only about 1/4 of the time I spend is actually dealing with someone in a plex. The rest is warping around system to system looking for someon in a plex or sitting in a plex myself hoping somone like me will enter for a fight. Intel would mean I can immediately go to someone in a plex by me and increase the efficiency of what I do by almost 4xs. That means I and others like me will interupt farmers 4xs as much making them less efficient.
3) But that is only part of the story. The other part is I and others like me will be 4xs as efficient at finding pvp. That means I will play eve more and so will others like me. That means the there will be more disruption of farmers.
4) But also because this is a more effient way to find pvp not only will the current people play more but more people will see that it is a great way to get small gang pvp and so even more people will join. That means more people will do this to find pvp. And those added people will also make farmers less efficient.
5) All of this will mean more pvp and hence will attract even more pvpers. All of this will snowball and make rabbit plexing a thing of the past.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Yet another example in a long line of comments that can be filed under 'Cerain sees someone use an exaggerated argument in order to make a point, then treats it as word-for-word literal, even if taking it literally would be absurd.'
Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.
You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2976
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 04:15:27 -
[230] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.
You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.
Who is everybody else? The people who will commit to chasing them? (nobody so far) |
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ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
448
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 07:58:10 -
[231] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesnGÇÖt mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes.
ok so heres how you tell whos in the systems within 2 jumps around Frerstrom --- You fly there stop being lazy and actually play the game noone owes you instant gratification, it happens nowere else in the game. If CCP didnt want you flying around they wouldnt have made the warzone so big and would have made it one or 2 systems next to each other, or even just one system were you would play capture the flag lol
Also can i have the source for this thing that you keep saying CCP promised? like i said in an earlier post they were vague and said maybe could do with better intel tools, they never said what those tools would be, they never said it would be real time intel and also never said they would actually implement it let alone the fact the dev that may have said something along those lines is probably not even with ccp anymore.
During that period of time do you know how many nutball ideas CCP said they would look at? Even the old lead designer Soundwave used to say he bare faced lied to people when asked questions and didnt have a response he would make **** up.
FW to ccp is the ginger step child they implemented it, and dont have a ******* clue what to do with it which tells in the 1 expansion since 2008, it doesnt create big headlines that hit irl news sites like null sec does that bring people to the game. This was also blatent in the introduction of citadels they knew the implications it would have on FW and steam rolled on with it anyway with total dis regard for FW and to think otherwise you are ******* stupid
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
|
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 15:19:28 -
[232] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.
You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.
Who is everybody else?
Over the years there have been plenty of people recognizing this would have a considerable impact. Some didn't want it because they think rabbit plexing is fine and/or good. Some said it would lead to blobs. Even recently many have agreed it would impact plexing. In this very thread we have Perkutor Jakuard from your corp saying:
"The notification system will do lp farming quite more difficult...."
In his csm campain thread Suitonia said this may be "too strong." Again it can't be too strong and worthless at the same time.
Even you supported this before you decided to hate everyone who disagreed with you the slightest bit. Here is what you said:
"The proposal for telling militias where the plexes are spawning is a decent one, and it will help when two like-minded gangs are itching for a fight. Good stuff. [It can easily be gamed, which is fine. Example: You have a minimum number of guys enter a plex and the rest stay out. Response fleet arrives to find opponent has 3x the number the intel map says they do. Example 2: Plexing fleet "spams intel" by opening large number of plexes in far off area, and then bails when response fleet arrives.]
However, if you are fighting for your militia and are more interested in occupancy than fights, your side will blob a plex and discourage even fights when you can. You want to win occupancy, not get good fights."
At some point your dislike of me overwhelmed common sense.
X Gallentius wrote: The people who will commit to chasing them? (nobody so far)
You seriously just block out anything you don't agree with. I just said I chase farmers and here is another quote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Still waiting on anybody to commit to running rabbits in the new "Cearain FW".... To answer your question directly, because you seem to think it is an important part of your character assassination attempt to discredit an idea you don't agree with: I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I choose to live in. I have chased off "rabbits" in the systems I chose to live whilst I was CalMil with PYRE. I have chased off "rabbits" in the system I sometimes live in even now whilst I am a neutral. I would continue to chase off "rabbits" from the system I chose to live in should I return to FW. Whilst a number of you assume (incorrectly) that "nobody cares about" all the backwater systems, I have and might again choose to care about my corner of the warzone. Just because as system has low traffic volume and can be quiet does not mean that someone is not interested in fighting for their Militia there. Some people choose a quieter corner so they can have the option of flying around solo, in pairs or threes, whilst avoiding insta gate camps and fleets that they cannot compete with in low numbers. It is usually tied in with good PvE content in the same system to maintain the wallet. Often different types of PvPers come to these systems looking for the kind of fights they set off on a roam to find. Whilst I fully expect that casual players and small groups should find it impossible (or at least extremely difficult) to hold sovereignty in a FW system, it should be possible for them to log in for their TZ and find that they can make an attempt to hold the system or go out and get fights. I've heard countless complaints from good active corp members in an active corp complain about TZ farmers reducing their gameplay to counter farming just to keep the contested level down. They always end up in "Why don't we just take the corp neutral and we wont take any faction standings hits and can shoot both sides". You seem to have lost the big picture.......
Seriously you ask a question ignore the responses and then you just ask the same question again and again saying they were never answered.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 15:37:15 -
[233] - Quote
Master sergent didnt seem to need free intel to motivate him to chase farmers. He seemed able minded enough to be able to find them himself. He was also specific about where he chased them, 'his home corner'. That is a subjective area, arbitrarily defined, and protected to the limits of his ability. There are no systems labelled 'backwater'. There are only systems that for one reason or another, do not fall under the care of any significant force.
MSMacR goes on to list the problem with a 24h warzone. Free intel doesnt help when you are not logged on so again, your idea does not at all address his valid criticism.
I would say that the benefits of the 24h warzone outweighs the drawbacks of timer based occupancy. The 24h warzone rewards activity, a timer rewards pings.
I do want to go back to an important aspect of you argument though.
When you first proposed this you did talk about ship types and even poked around the possibility of fitting info (ab/mwd) being included in the intel.
This is just to provide some context of what i believe to be the motivation for your free intel idea. A few posts ago you said intel would prevent people from being able to hide. With this im going to assume you think pilot names are going to be a feature in the intel?
This seems like a very simple way for small group of people to completely shut down any solo or smaller group of pilots regardless of them being farmers or not. From the moment they enter a plex, even at the opposite side of the WZ, anyone with a grudge can, without any effort what so ever, locate them and prevent them from playing. With free intel, there is no ability for that player to evade a larger group.
If you have annoyed some locals, it should never be possible for them to sit in station and wait for intel to leek in.
If you want to prevent someone from hiding, it really should be down to your own efforts to find them. To this end there is already a delayed agent locator.
I understand that this whole 'free intel' idea is mostly just selfish on your part. It seems to me that you want an intricate web of intel but you dont want to or are incapable of cultivating an intel channel of players willing to build it.
The only thing im not sure of is if this is a conscious or subconscious motivation on your part. Given your arguments, i am willing to accept that you lack the capacity to understand that this is an idea to benefit yourself and your 'shoot both sides' play style, not a benefit to FW. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 15:44:41 -
[234] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:Cearain wrote: Right now let's say IGÇÖm in frerstorn. How many plexes are being run in all the systems withing 2 jumps of me? You would need to have about 7 alts in different systems to know this information. And no one does this. Someone might say yeah someone was plexing in ___ about 10 minutes ago. But that doesnGÇÖt mean they are there now nor does it tell you about the other systems. If ccp delivered what they promised I could cover all those systems and have plex timers rolling back in a few minutes. ok so heres how you tell whos in the systems within 2 jumps around Frerstrom --- You fly there stop being lazy and actually play the game noone owes you instant gratification, it happens nowere else in the game..
Ok so as a pvper you say this will give me instant gratification. I agree it will give me pvp quicker. We just disagree about whether this is good. But we both agree that those who say this will have no effect are wrong.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote: If CCP didnt want you flying around they wouldnt have made the warzone so big and would have made it one or 2 systems next to each other, or even just one system were you would play capture the flag lol
That may be. But I actually think they just wanted the fighting to be spread out. I don't think they necessarilly wanted to force players to warp around the map for hours. You say that what we should do is just start roaming around and wasting allot of our time. Well thats not really happening and its time ccp acknowledged that their player base values their time and doesn't want to waste so much of it randomly "roaming" system to system. .[/quote]
ALUCARD 1208 wrote: Also can i have the source for this thing that you keep saying CCP promised? like i said in an earlier post they were vague and said maybe could do with better intel tools, they never said what those tools would be, they never said it would be real time intel and also never said they would actually implement it let alone the fact the dev that may have said something along those lines is probably not even with ccp anymore.
During that period of time do you know how many nutball ideas CCP said they would look at? Even the old lead designer Soundwave used to say he bare faced lied to people when asked questions and didnt have a response he would make **** up..
The source is in one of my earlier posts in this thread. As I said in response to you earlier you are correct that they did not give any details about these intel tools. But again they said it was in response to player feedback and I am not aware of any other notification or intel tool system that players were talking about. Yes there were allot of ideas but at the time I followed fw ideas pretty closely and highly doubt I missed any other ideas regarding intel tools from players.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote: FW to ccp is the ginger step child they implemented it, and dont have a ******* clue what to do with it which tells in the 1 expansion since 2008, it doesnt create big headlines that hit irl news sites like null sec does that bring people to the game. This was also blatent in the introduction of citadels they knew the implications it would have on FW and steam rolled on with it anyway with total dis regard for FW and to think otherwise you are ******* stupid
I agree that ccp gives fw very little resources. And I would even agree that fw is not going to draw big headlines because the ships tend to be cheaper. But I think fw can be very helpful in keeping players. The small gang pvp fw fosters is a very fun part of the game. The big null fights may get many players into eve but they are not really that fun to participate in - IMO. Currently eve gives you the option to get meaningless small gang pvp or huge blob fights with meaning. Neither one is great. FW sov can fill a void. It can give small gang fights that have some overarching significance.
As far as the citadels yes you are right that ccp likely did not care much about how that would effect fw. But CCP was sort of ambivalent about doing station lockouts anyway. The idea of station lockouts would come up before ccp implemented them (in inferno) and the fw players consistently said no to them. Now of course many players who hated station lockouts are no longer in fw. But that doesn't mean station lock outs are that great and those who disliked them were wrong.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 16:37:39 -
[235] - Quote
I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.
However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.
I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
|
Posted - 2017.03.10 19:12:13 -
[236] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.
However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.
I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel.
So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?
You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.
As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2049
|
Posted - 2017.03.11 00:08:44 -
[237] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:I seem to recall you did talk about ship fittings at one point.
However, As has been covered before, If i see a red 4 over iwisoda, im not feeling compelled to go there given my experience. Now, if WCS prevented FW plex gate activation, then i might swing past iwisoda as a matter of course to see if i could catch one of them out without gimping my fit to fight farmers.
I wouldnt need to look at the map to see a red number in a system i care about, because if i was available to do something about it, id be undocked doing something about it. If not, id be providing that information to an actual intel channel. So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there? You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits. As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.
You are the one that keeps talking about how people have been shooting farmers for years, and thats before they have free intel. So it seems even by your reckoning that disrupting farmers does not pivot on free intel.
Im just telling you that for whatever is broken in FW, intel isnt really one of them. Free intel does not do what you say it does, and can also be easily achieved in an organic way by a functional militia. Just as intel is achieved in every single other area of space.
What you are asking for is the ability to put an alt in FW, so you can monitor free intel and go attack both militias with no negative effect on yourself.
This might be a solution to the 'Im not in militia and as such i dont have the resource of hundreds of players reporting things, but such intel is useful so i should be entitled to have it generated and handed to me on a silver platter because im not very good at roaming' problem.
But it isnt a solution to any real problem in FW. |
Agent 5B
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2017.03.16 02:13:00 -
[238] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Is there enough pvp in FW? No not really. Is it more than other areas? Possibly. Jita has the most kills. Does that count? And if you say no jita doesn't count then I will ask why. And the answer will be likely to do with the quality of the type of pvp. And I will agree with you. But I will also point out that just looking at the map of fw space the systems with the most kills are those systems that have a high sec gate. Which means allot of those kills likely has little to do with faction war. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24 http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#kills24 Moreover in looking at the map as whole we would see the mean system likely has less than 1 kill per hour.
That is a little misleading, FW tends to cycle through power shifts from one side to the other and the big fights occur mostly when the sides become even during one of those shifts. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1503
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Posted - 2017.03.16 13:38:22 -
[239] - Quote
Agent 5B wrote:
That is a little misleading, FW tends to cycle through power shifts from one side to the other and the big fights occur mostly when the sides become even during one of those shifts.
If the fighting was more evenly spread out instead of a just a few systems then there could always be places where the available power is about equal and there will be fights. When there are only a few systems whether or not you get pvp is very binary because you have large number of pilots in a few systems. As the numbers increase it will be less likely that you will get evenly matched sides that make for good fights.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote: So if you saw someone in a system other than iwisoda maybe you would go there?
You keep talking about "a system [you] care about" People used to care about allot more systems than they do now. What happened is they can no longer deal with the rabbits in the vast majority of systems so they stopped caring about sov in the vast majority of systems. Thats why we need more tools to help us deal with the rabbits.
As far as removing stabs I suppose it would help more than it would hurt. The thing is rabbits can warp out before you land on grid anyway assuming that they are paying some attention. If they are completely not paying attention then you can kill them because they won't warp out even when you are shooting them. There may be some middle ground there that might hurt the rabbits. So I think that may help a bit. I don't think it will change the war zone nearly as much as rollbacks and intel tools.
You are the one that keeps talking about how people have been shooting farmers for years, and thats before they have free intel. So it seems even by your reckoning that disrupting farmers does not pivot on free intel.
Rabbits will stop when the disruptions to their efficiency is frequent enough and painful enough. I gave 5 ways intel tools will increase the frequency of the disruptions (you addressed none of them) and rollbacks will make each disruption more painful.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Im just telling you that for whatever is broken in FW, intel isnt really one of them. Free intel does not do what you say it does, and can also be easily achieved in an organic way by a functional militia. Just as intel is achieved in every single other area of space.
So no militia has ever been functional? Seriously players are not going to want to have there alts constantly scout every system any more then they want to have their alts rabbit plexing.
If you mean to suggest Gallente did this when they captured all the systems I would say I am trying to end rabbit plexing not join them with my own plexing alts like you guys did.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: What you are asking for is the ability to put an alt in FW, so you can monitor free intel and go attack both militias with no negative effect on yourself.
This might be a solution to the 'Im not in militia and as such i dont have the resource of hundreds of players reporting things, but such intel is useful so i should be entitled to have it generated and handed to me on a silver platter because im not very good at roaming' problem.
But it isnt a solution to any real problem in FW.
If they gave this information I would be in faction war because gaining sov would finally be fun.
You have to make up your mind either the intel is useful or it won't change anything. It can't be both. And again I will ask the same question I did before and you couldn't answer. If this intel is already there for any funcitoning militia then how timers are running in plexes for all systems 2 jumps from frerstorn right now? For each system give me the number of plexes and which side is plexing them.
I have been in fw I know this intel is not readily available.
BTW you missed my question above.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
2050
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Posted - 2017.03.16 16:49:48 -
[240] - Quote
You still have not explained how fighting will be 'spread out', as though suddenly pvpers are going to chase farmers (read, people who wont engage them) to all the deepest darkest corners of FW, because somehow they didnt previously know there was a farmer in Teimo for example?
Your suggestion drives no change in player behaviour beyond rewarding them with information while they are docked.
Are you saying that no militia has had decent intel? You assume intel comes from only alts? Ive been in militia and ive seen pleanty of decent intel on all levels, from fleet targets to farmer targets. Some is acted on, some is not. When i was only flying maulus many of my kills happened because i reported things in intel.
The inability for amarr militia to maintain, or their unwillingness to include you in an intel channel is a player problem.
You have yet again made an assertion that gaining sov would be fun if there was free intel. You have failed to show any basis for this claim for the last 2/3 years. If chasing farmers around was fun, people can easily do it. Most people already know where they haunt. You plan looks something like;
- Free Intel - Find Farmer - ???? - Fun.
I for one had most fun fighting over homesystems, and made most isk (outside lvl4 fw missions) defending my plexing alts in quieter space. No one ever had any problem finding each other in either such events. And it was nice that there is a verity of choices. |
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1515
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Posted - 2017.03.16 17:38:35 -
[241] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You still have not explained how fighting will be 'spread out', as though suddenly pvpers are going to chase farmers (read, people who wont engage them) to all the deepest darkest corners of FW, because somehow they didnt previously know there was a farmer in Teimo for example?
You seem unable to answer the questions I put to you. But I will answer yours.
Pvpers will have a much easier time holding a constellation as opposed to just a system. So both sides will widen the amount of area they want to control. Hence spreading out the area of combat.
Rabbit plexing will become too inefficient to be worthwhile. So it will become a thing of the past. I explained how this will occur since intel will lead to more frequent interuptions and rollbacks would lead to each interuption being more costly. You have ignored my responses and claim I never gave any reasons.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Your suggestion drives no change in player behaviour beyond rewarding them with information while they are docked.
Are you saying that no militia has had decent intel? You assume intel comes from only alts? Ive been in militia and ive seen pleanty of decent intel on all levels, from fleet targets to farmer targets. Some is acted on, some is not. When i was only flying maulus many of my kills happened because i reported things in intel.
I never said there is not decent intel in the militia. I said it is not good enough. We still see that you gain the most sov for your faction by running away. Look at the api dump yourself.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The inability for amarr militia to maintain, or their unwillingness to include you in an intel channel is a player problem.
You have yet again made an assertion that gaining sov would be fun if there was free intel. You have failed to show any basis for this claim for the last 2/3 years. If chasing farmers around was fun, people can easily do it. Most people already know where they haunt. You plan looks something like;
- Free Intel - Find Farmer - ???? - Fun.
I for one had most fun fighting over homesystems, and made most isk (outside lvl4 fw missions) defending my plexing alts in quieter space. No one ever had any problem finding each other in either such events. And it was nice that there is a verity of choices.
I gave 5 reasons why intel tools will increase the frequency rabbits are interupted and when combined with rollbacks will lead to the extinction of rabbit plexers. You have ignored those reasons and claim I never gave them.
And again the tools do not need to be free you can pay isk or lp for them. But yes it is sort of silly to ask a soldier to pay money before his superior will tell him where he should go fight. But whatever it doesn't have to be free. I suppose you think all the ships you buy in jita are free because you just paid isk for them and didn't mine the ore.
You may have fun protecting your plexing alts. (and yes lets be clear, even you recognize that multiboxing many alts is how you win sov.) But then again you were the guy who wanted to keep booster alts. Requiring people to pay for and multibox multiple accounts to "play" a game, is a bad game design for many reasons. I know you feel differently but I am fine agreeing to disagree on that one.
Fighting over a single system in faction war can be allot of fun. I don't deny that. I do think it is very similar to the large concentrated fights you get in null sec however. And I don't think fw needs to mirror null sec. IMO FW can and should involve more spread out and constant warfare rather than the null style infrequent big fight in a single system or constellation.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
138
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Posted - 2017.04.18 13:09:36 -
[242] - Quote
How about a militia chan that gives a simple ' your system name x is being attacked by the enemy"
Then you know where there is a fight to be had |
ALUCARD 1208
Death By Design Did he say Jump
453
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Posted - 2017.04.19 07:04:07 -
[243] - Quote
Cearain wrote:. FW can and should involve more spread out and constant warfare rather than the null style infrequent big fight in a single system or constellation.
Its called N+1 happens in all of eve why spread out and fight when you can focus on one place and bring more than them steamroll and move on, that is why militia will always band together
BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
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Abannan
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
120
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Posted - 2017.05.06 11:30:16 -
[244] - Quote
ITT: Cerain spews forth his views on what Faction Warfare should be about despite not being involved for years, whilst the people who have been fighting there for years pick apart his ideas. |
Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1515
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Posted - 2017.05.09 20:20:14 -
[245] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:How about a militia chan that gives a simple ' your system name x is being attacked by the enemy"
Then you know where there is a fight to be had
That was in line with the original idea and it could be workable. If it only covered systems in your constellation it might work ok. If it covered the whole front it would be a bit unruly. Of course, if you could filter the channel results for X numbers of jumps that would be much better.
I think ccp could figure some intel mechanic out, if they wanted to end rabbit plexxing. I just think they just have decided its fine that Null sec sov remains the only sov any sane person cares about and fw is 97% alts and 3% who care about fighting for fw sov.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen. Atlas. Alliance
909
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Posted - 2017.05.10 21:11:52 -
[246] - Quote
As a long time FW player, here are some things that I care about:
1. The Pendulum swing is too harsh, people are saying that the lower availability of LP in tier 1 makes it more valuable, but that is more or less BS when you have months of players dumping millions of LP into the market during tier 1, then as it starts to become about twice as valuable the pendulum swings again, leaving a very short window of time for people to actually make reasonable isk who didn't have millions saved up before the tier drop. I am taking a break mostly from FW (I do still have 3 FW toons) and I still have millions of LP laying about for when Minmatar goes into lower tier.
2. I ran a corporation, Alliance, and co-ran a coalition when I was in FW, and what did we end up doing? Taking sov in order to raise the isk in order to field fleets. With no means to tax LP it becomes very difficult to fund SRP programs over cruisers on a corporate or alliance level. It was very stupid though, that we would have to be ratting where our sov was (insmother) or where our allies sov was (Wicked Creek) in order to fund doctrines, but then something would happen in the Warzone and we would have to actually get there to do something about it, with JC timers and whatnot. When we should have been able to just plex in the warzone, and fund things on an alliance level.
TL;DR; provide corporations with the ability to tax LP, and set a default NPC corp tax rate on LP in the milita to incentive player corps (which can be wardecced and are all around better to interact with)
3. Some sort of timer solution, I really don't care if it is a rollback or a dual timer. Each one has benefits and consequences.
4. Break up Minmatar/Gallente and Caldari/Amarr. Prevent Caldari/Gallente from running plexes in the amarr/Minmatar warzone and vice versa, there is even less incentive to bring you faction up from t1 when you can simply change to the other faction and go about business as usual.
I remember for a while having Of Questionable Repute (my minmil alliance) and Multicultural F1 Brigade (Calmil alliance) blue, and we would head up to black rise to run incursions or shoot gallente with them, it was nice to have those options, but if we broke up the alliances between militas we could have more of that, it only worked in our case as I used to be a director in MCF1B so we trusted each other.
5. An actually novice plex, without faction frigates. As it stands it seems like more of a game of pirates in faction frigs and implants just hunting newbies all day, which makes them leave FW pretty quickly. I know eve is a harsh game, but many of those people will stay in the pot of boiling water if only you crank the heat up slowly, and will jump out of that pot if you crank the heat up too fast. |
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