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Please do NOT nerf cloaking in anyway including scan probes

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SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.25 16:18:00 - [1] Please. they are already bad when they uncloak they cant do much when cloaked putting in scan probes would remove their biggest use the whines asking for scan probes / nerf cloak are on the same level as the whines asking for everywhere in empire to be 100% safe except these guys exist in lo sec and 0.0
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 16:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Alski on 25/04/2007 16:28:00 If it ever does get fixed, i would hope, and am confident the only nurf would to AFK cloaking. -
Jai Cee Quam Singulari Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.25 16:42:00 - [3] I'd say that cloaking is currently fine except for those who AFK cloak and perhaps cloaks on ships not meant for them. If there were a new type of scan probe it should take quite a while to get a lock on a cloaked ship (maybe 5 mins with good skills in a covops frig). For bigger ships this could maybe be cut down to 3-4 mins again with good skills in a covops frig. I'm also assuming here that any probe to detect cloakers would be pretty skill heavy like anything else to do with covops.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:07:00 - [4] For probes, increased difficulty and imprecision for scanning cloaked ships, but keep the current probes. That's more than enough. We WERE promised anyway when the new scanning system was introduced, that probes WOULD also scan for cloaked ships. Heck, a covops cloaked ship (frig/cruiser) can STILL pretty much stay AFK-cloaked with that change if it's also rigged for speed... AFK, moving at max speed... decloak them if you can. Pffst. Not likely. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 25/04/2007 16:28:00 If it ever does get fixed, i would hope, and am confident the only nurf would to AFK cloaking. ugh thats their biggest use - that would be stupid Originally by: Jai Cee I'd say that cloaking is currently fine except for those who AFK cloak and perhaps cloaks on ships not meant for them. maybe cloaks on ships not meant for them. but afk cloaking is FINE -its already nerfed Quote: If there were a new type of scan probe it should take quite a while to get a lock on a cloaked ship (maybe 5 mins with good skills in a covops frig). For bigger ships this could maybe be cut down to 3-4 mins again with good skills in a covops frig. I'm also assuming here that any probe to detect cloakers would be pretty skill heavy like anything else to do with covops. the closest POSSIBLE thing i would agree with - and notice im against the whole thing in the first place. is a really innaccurate probe that would basically let you know if someone is really afk or not, say in the AU it would tell you how far he is not to actually let you find them this would also solve your afk problem because you would know if they are really afk or not making a scan probe for anti-cloak would be dumb in any way but skill heavy would be even dumber - it would just cause cloakers to - just like pirates - kill only newbs !
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:14:00 - [6] Edited by: MasterEnt on 25/04/2007 17:10:41 I still dont understand how AFK cloaking affects anyone anymore than someone just staying still in the same spot for a few hours cloaked. You can't jump, shoot or use any modules. there is recalibration and reactivation time and a 2k decloaking trigger. How is that threatening in any way? Annoying to see some gguy in local you cant find.. maybe.. I like my local clean and blue as much as the next guy. But i certainly dont feel like my ship is in danger... unless I go AFK. And maybe that is the problem.... maybee everyone who is "scared" of AFK cloakers are realy just mad that THEY cannot go afk in their own system when they see a cloaker there.. becuase they DONT KNOW if they are AFK is a safespot or Cloaked right behind them.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:22:00 - [7] Alright seeing as this wonderful post got in after the lock on the other cloaker thread.... I'm reposting it here. How many of you can even use scan probes? I ask because the steps in finding a safespotted or mission running ship is basically 1) Get a prober 2) a) Try to get within 20au of the target and you'll find him right quick 2) b) Try to get within 10au or 5au of the target if he's in a mission, and it will take you half an hour so to find him 3) Hit 'analyze' again and again till you get a result. I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Finding a cloaked ship, even via probes, is going to be near impossible, or hard enough that no one in this thread is even going to try it anyway. So, given that you'll have no idea where the cloaked ship is in the system, how do you expect to find him? Drop probes at all the planets? What if he's not within 10, 20 or even 30 AU of any astral body? (like in those really big systems with 60au+ between gates). Now lets look at the chance based system. Non-cloaked ships in a deadspace can be found, but its a right *****. The chance of finding a Battleship in a deadspace is very, very low. Is this magical anti-cloaker probe going to have a better chance of finding a cloaked ship than me with a snoop within 5au of a uncloaked Raven running a mission? And how big is its range going to be? 1au? 10au? 100au? Because you're going to need a probe that covers at least 50au, probably more like 100au, if you're going to have a chance of getting them within you scan probes range in the first place. So go ahead, bring on probes if you'd like. Unless they're designed to just 100% nerf cloaked ships to the hilt within an insane range and insane scan ability anyone who tries to find a cloaked ship would just be wasting their time. And if CCP does release a probe that has insane range with insane scan ability, it damn well better work when trying to find mission runners. ------
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:23:00 - [8] I forgot to add... as a counter-move, make cloaked ships pilots NOT listed in local. Also, if a ship with a cloak jumps, instead of activating the GATEcloak, activate the SHIPcloak. Keep scanning the system non-stop if you want to find out if a cloaker is in the system at all. Or, well, bait him to speak in local. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
GeekWarrior Gallente KAOS.	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:28:00 - [9] Why not make cloaks use cap? Make cloaks use a certain amount of cap relative to the mass of the ship. This way you could make cloaks run for a while on any ship but eventually they would run out of cap unless they severely gimped their fitting and used all cap mods. ----------------------------- EVE Addict, creator of the EVE Online Forms Greasemonkey Script \o/
Vyyrus	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:39:00 - [10] Why not make the cloaking detection something like it scans for certain particles processed by the cloaking device. Then once the particles are found player is able to warp to them then light off smart bombs or something to make player appear.

Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Ridley Tree Alright seeing as this wonderful post got in after the lock on the other cloaker thread.... I'm reposting it here. How many of you can even use scan probes? I ask because the steps in finding a safespotted or mission running ship is basically 1) Get a prober 2) a) Try to get within 20au of the target and you'll find him right quick 2) b) Try to get within 10au or 5au of the target if he's in a mission, and it will take you half an hour so to find him 3) Hit 'analyze' again and again till you get a result. I hope you can see what I'm getting at. Finding a cloaked ship, even via probes, is going to be near impossible, or hard enough that no one in this thread is even going to try it anyway. So, given that you'll have no idea where the cloaked ship is in the system, how do you expect to find him? Drop probes at all the planets? What if he's not within 10, 20 or even 30 AU of any astral body? (like in those really big systems with 60au+ between gates). Now lets look at the chance based system. Non-cloaked ships in a deadspace can be found, but its a right *****. The chance of finding a Battleship in a deadspace is very, very low. Is this magical anti-cloaker probe going to have a better chance of finding a cloaked ship than me with a snoop within 5au of a uncloaked Raven running a mission? And how big is its range going to be? 1au? 10au? 100au? Because you're going to need a probe that covers at least 50au, probably more like 100au, if you're going to have a chance of getting them within you scan probes range in the first place. So go ahead, bring on probes if you'd like. Unless they're designed to just 100% nerf cloaked ships to the hilt within an insane range and insane scan ability anyone who tries to find a cloaked ship would just be wasting their time. And if CCP does release a probe that has insane range with insane scan ability, it damn well better work when trying to find mission runners. Exactly my concern. People currently can counter "AFK cloakers" by taking obvious precautions (flying with an escort, fitting for PvP, moving to another system, etc.), but they complain it's too expensive, boring or otherwise cuts into their ISK-per-second efficiency. Think they'll be satisfied with a "solution" that's skill-intensive, tedious, time-consuming and/or fallible? Not bloody likely. I understand people being upset about an "AFK cloaker" staying in their system 23/7... But that said, how else is someone supposed to use a cloak AND get an otherwise vigilant opponent to lower their guard?
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:45:00 - [12] Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 25/04/2007 17:10:41 I still dont understand how AFK cloaking affects anyone anymore than someone just staying still in the same spot for a few hours cloaked. You can't jump, shoot or use any modules. there is recalibration and reactivation time and a 2k decloaking trigger. How is that threatening in any way? Annoying to see some gguy in local you cant find.. maybe.. I like my local clean and blue as much as the next guy. But i certainly dont feel like my ship is in danger... unless I go AFK. And maybe that is the problem.... maybee everyone who is "scared" of AFK cloakers are realy just mad that THEY cannot go afk in their own system when they see a cloaker there.. becuase they DONT KNOW if they are AFK is a safespot or Cloaked right behind them. No, yes because any combat ship includeing battleships, but worse of all Recons, can gank someone, like a miner or ratter, then go AFK for hours on end with his threat known to the locals, thereby preventing ratting to some extent, but more any mining ops, mereley just by his presence in local. Individual pilots causeing large scale disruption to alliance operations without even being in the house, let alone at there keyboard = overpowered. I say give us probes that are inaccurate for anything smaller than a cruiser, a fair bit stronger vs. battleships and above, and with a long scaning time, actual covops frigs should still be increadabley hard to find since they have zero offensive capeability aside from intel. -
The Slayette	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:45:00 - [13] Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 25/04/2007 17:10:41 I still dont understand how AFK cloaking affects anyone anymore than someone just staying still in the same spot for a few hours cloaked. We have three recon pilots visit systems that we rat in regularly and stay logged on all day. They will go AFK for large periods of time. How are we supposed to do anything in system with 3 recons sitting cloaked POSSIBLY at keys POSSIBLY not. At any time our mining/ratting/hauling could be interrupted by an arazu/falcon/rapier triple act and then what?
Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:46:00 - [14] Do not remove AFK cloakers. People shouldn't be able to rat/mine completely risk-free in 0.0. If they want the benefits, then they should adequately prepare to defend themselves. Otherwise CCP will continue along their path of making this game like WoW (re. nerfing war decs).
Vyyrus	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:50:00 - [15] With no way of detecting afk cloakers, there is no way of defending yourself. Most of them like to gank miners which have no means of defense. Maybe if they warp back to station to get their other ship but by that time he is already dead and ship has moved on. So yes something needs to be done not nerfing it but some means of detection.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:52:00 - [16] Originally by: GeekWarrior Why not make cloaks use cap? Make cloaks use a certain amount of cap relative to the mass of the ship. This way you could make cloaks run for a while on any ship but eventually they would run out of cap unless they severely gimped their fitting and used all cap mods. I posted this in another thread, but think it bears repeating here. Is it, or would it ever be acceptable to you, to have a player to take advantage of a cloaking device in your system? And if so, under what conditions? For example, say a pilot enters your region in a Force Recon. He might be operating as a mercenary or under the command of an opposing alliance. His intent is specifically to look for a "soft target" to destroy ù perhaps an unescorted miner or hauler. Or maybe he's trying to claim bounty on a specific pilot that's using your locale as a sanctuary. Assuming this is acceptable gameplay, how would you speculate it actually occurring? If you truly are vigilant about minding your stargate(s) and/or the route to your system, obviously your most likely reaction would be to immediately desist any vulnerable activities and recall your ships to a relative point of safety. Effectively, this is a stalemate. And in this scenario, given that the Recon pilot can't conceal his presence from local, it would be in his best interest to use the advantage of his cloak to simply wait you out. He wants you to assume he's AFK, therefore you might just lower your guard long enough for him to strike. Mind you, I appreciate you might not empathize with his directive, but certainly you can understand his motivation? Is there an acceptable time limit on how long he may wait? And if this form of guerilla warfare is simply unacceptable in a sovereign system, what about in a non-sovereign system or low sec? How would you propose players use cloaks "normally"? Exclusively for reconnaissance and/or exploration? What about in conjunction with a larger, more typical fleet operation? What (if any) advantages should a cloak offer that can't be achieved just as effectively (if not more effectively) with more conventional setups?
The Slayette	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Ariel Dawn Do not remove AFK cloakers. People shouldn't be able to rat/mine completely risk-free in 0.0. If they want the benefits, then they should adequately prepare to defend themselves. Otherwise CCP will continue along their path of making this game like WoW (re. nerfing war decs). People shouldn'y be able to GO TO THE PUB completely risk-free in 0.0. I am happy to defend myself, I would just like to be able to go on the offensive against enemies in my home system.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:58:00 - [18] Originally by: The Slayette Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 25/04/2007 17:10:41 I still dont understand how AFK cloaking affects anyone anymore than someone just staying still in the same spot for a few hours cloaked. We have three recon pilots visit systems that we rat in regularly and stay logged on all day. They will go AFK for large periods of time. How are we supposed to do anything in system with 3 recons sitting cloaked POSSIBLY at keys POSSIBLY not. At any time our mining/ratting/hauling could be interrupted by an arazu/falcon/rapier triple act and then what? I think there are some ways to do small tweaks to cloaks but I dont think they should nerf afk cloaking. You should never feel safe in this game anywhere. If you can't tell if someone in system is sitting cloaked afk or not best to bring enough protection to remove any concerns. All this talk makes me think we should not look at ways of fixing cloaks or probes but on removing local chat. (never been a huge fan of it but its an idea thats really growing on me)
Vyyrus	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:02:00 - [19] Heh isnt removing local chat all of an afk cloakers wildest dreams.
Cheraldo Human Liberty Syndicate Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:03:00 - [20] If Scan Probes are introduced to find cloaked ships, you could as well remove them from the game. I mean it's the hole point of being cloaked. What you would really want is a device like a Smartbomb. If you activated it, it emits a burst of whatever and makes cloaked ships in the vicinity lockable. __________________________________ Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector.

Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:04:00 - [21] I'd be dollars to doughnuts that within the next six months cloaks are nerfed. Way too many people using them on every ship type right now. You can basically enter any system and cloak without worry and sit there all day waiting for targets of opportunity and there is absolutely no counter.
Leto Nyx	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:05:00 - [22] Bring in a new probe type that scans for cloaks. Make sure it takes at least a couple of minutes no matter how good your skills are. During that time, have the probe monitor the average direction and average speed of the cloaked ship so that the location it gives you is a prediction of where the ship will be when you get there. For a cloaker, this can be easily countered by simply changing direction every couple of minutes. AFK cloakers will be found easily. As somebody said, being able to cause problems for other players without even being at your computer is overpowered. On the other hand, SBs should be able to warp cloaked ----- Who do these gods think they are, with their 'holier than thou' attitude?
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:06:00 - [23] Originally by: The Slayette Originally by: Ariel Dawn Do not remove AFK cloakers. People shouldn't be able to rat/mine completely risk-free in 0.0. If they want the benefits, then they should adequately prepare to defend themselves. Otherwise CCP will continue along their path of making this game like WoW (re. nerfing war decs). People shouldn'y be able to GO TO THE PUB completely risk-free in 0.0. I am happy to defend myself, I would just like to be able to go on the offensive against enemies in my home system. If you remove a cloaked pilot's ability to pick and choose when to engage in battle, what's the point of cloaking? Would it ever be acceptable for an enemy pilot to use cloaking to their advantage in your "home system" offensively... to attack your miners/haulers? If so, under what circumstances, and how precisely would you propose that scenario play out?
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn ...You can basically enter any system and cloak without worry and sit there all day waiting for targets of opportunity and there is absolutely no counter. Of course there's a counter... don't be a target of opportunity.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:13:00 - [25] Simple - make cloak use fuel so you can only use it limited time (say, 1min per 1M3 fuel), and give covops cloakers a huge reduction (1hr/1M3). Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
Dople ganger	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Alski Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 25/04/2007 17:10:41 I still dont understand how AFK cloaking affects anyone anymore than someone just staying still in the same spot for a few hours cloaked. You can't jump, shoot or use any modules. there is recalibration and reactivation time and a 2k decloaking trigger. How is that threatening in any way? Annoying to see some gguy in local you cant find.. maybe.. I like my local clean and blue as much as the next guy. But i certainly dont feel like my ship is in danger... unless I go AFK. And maybe that is the problem.... maybee everyone who is "scared" of AFK cloakers are realy just mad that THEY cannot go afk in their own system when they see a cloaker there.. becuase they DONT KNOW if they are AFK is a safespot or Cloaked right behind them. No, yes because any combat ship includeing battleships, but worse of all Recons, can gank someone, like a miner or ratter, then go AFK for hours on end with his threat known to the locals, thereby preventing ratting to some extent, but more any mining ops, mereley just by his presence in local. Individual pilots causeing large scale disruption to alliance operations without even being in the house, let alone at there keyboard = overpowered. I say give us probes that are inaccurate for anything smaller than a cruiser, a fair bit stronger vs. battleships and above, and with a long scaning time, actual covops frigs should still be increadabley hard to find since they have zero offensive capeability aside from intel. EASY SOLUTION!!! Remove Freaking LOCAL CHANNEL!!!!
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 25/04/2007 18:15:44 Originally by: Sokratesz Simple - make cloak use fuel so you can only use it limited time (say, 1min per 1M3 fuel), and give covops cloakers a huge reduction (1hr/1M3). Sounds good to me. Originally by: Blue Pixie Would it ever be acceptable for an enemy pilot to use cloaking to their advantage in your "home system" offensively... to attack your miners/haulers? If so, under what circumstances, and how precisely would you propose that scenario play out? Tough question. I really don't know how to answer, but I trust that CCP will decide on something that works. It is just annoying to have 5 or 10 hostile cloakers sit in your systems afk 20 hours out of everyday and active for about 3.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Sokratesz Simple - make cloak use fuel so you can only use it limited time (say, 1min per 1M3 fuel), and give covops cloakers a huge reduction (1hr/1M3). And then miners/haulers/ratters/whatever will just AFK in a safe spot until their cloaked adversaries run out of cloak juice. Here's what it all boils down to... Currently, cloaking modules give pilots the ability to pick and choose when to engage in battle. Clearly, this upsets some people. Instead, they want to pick and choose when to engage in battle... WITHOUT having to equip a cloaking module. Sounds a little hypocritical if you ask me. Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Tough question. I really don't know how to answer, but I trust that CCP will decide on something that works. It is just annoying to have 5 or 10 hostile cloakers sit in your systems afk 20 hours out of everyday and active for about 3. Thank you for acknowledging this. I'm not saying I have an answer either, but I think this question is really the heart of the issue. Until CCP and players alike address this, I don't think we're ever going to reach a compromise.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:28:00 - [29] STEP 1 : Have probes able to detect cloaked ships. Now, wether it's with or without a lot of added difficulty, that's less relevant. The relevant part is that you can actually FIND a cloaked ship if you're looking for it. Cloaker's life got a bit harder. STEP 2 : Have cloaked ship pilots NOT appear in local as portraits (as long as they are cloaked). Ok, so now you can find a cloaked ship if you're looking for it... but... do you know if you should look for it ? Unless the pilot accidentally posts something in local OR decloaks, there's no indication of his presence. NONE. Well, I call that a boost to cloakers, wouldn't you ? STEP 3 : On gate-jump session changes, INSTEAD of activating the gatecloak, activate the SHIP CLOAK Basically, if a covops cloak pilot enters a system, you will only know he's there if he decloaks or speaks. That, or if you were at the gate when he jumped in (and then you'll only know a cloaked ship entered, not who). If a "normal" cloak ship enters the system, you will briefly see it in local when it warps (and breaks cloak). STEP 4 : There is no step 4 Say what ? YES ! No step 4. That's all that's needed. AFK cloaking lost the "terror" effect, and you can find AFK cloakers easier as you can find "normal" cloakers. Normal cloaking just got slightly boosted, yet still not too much. Of course, now you also have the added "generic" terror of having a cloaker in system and NOT knowing about it. But quite frankly, that's the BEST part of it all _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:30:00 - [30] The problem with AFK cloakers, is cloaked ships are already _nearly_ invulnerable when moving around. I see a lot of people commenting on 'there should be risk in 0.0' but... well where's the risk, at all, of me sitting AFK in an Arazu 2000km off your outpost? Any danger WHATSOEVER in me sitting there, waiting for a target of opportunity, and then going after it. Even going AFK long term, and coming back later, I am in no danger. That said, I don't think being able to 'just find' cloakers is a good thing. I'd suggest some kind of anchorable POS module, sov required, that decloaks everyone in a system. But with the caveat that _everyone_ gets a notice telling them it's happening, and a countdown. 's dead easy then, for a cloaker to warp off to a SS, or hell, even just recloak as soon as they're decloaked. But at the same time, means I can't just sit there afk for 12 hours, being invulnerable. I'd also rather like a 'proximity sensor' that could be used to detect the presence of cloaked ships. Not actually decloak them, or even give more than a 'general idea' of one being about, but something that lets me get _some_ idea of if i've got a cloaker watching me, or if he's on another gate or something. shrug cloaks are mostly ok. They're broken when people can be invulnerable, and have no danger to sitting AFK in 0.0



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