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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:20:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Goumindong Why does local need a counter?[30 second-1 minute delay would be nice though, but that is a different issue]
Because, as it has been said numerous times already in this thread, it defeats the very purpose of stealth.
Originally by: Goumindong With no local the bias shifts towards the attackers much too far. Anyone who is not attacking must be constantly scanning using both the directional scanner and any cloak detection scanner. It cuts the 1-2 minute warning into a 30 second warning if you are jamming your scanner every second and the opponent isnt cloaked.
Tough. Don't like it? Join an NPC corp and play in Empire.
Originally by: Goumindong You keep saying i want to trivialize cloaking, but you havent said why cloaking would be trivialized, other than "it would be".
Baloney. I have PLENTY of times. You've either just conveniently ignored the reasons or dismissed them.
Here's some examples:
Post 508
Post 492
Post 490
Post 481
Originally by: Goumindong You and Sijira also havent answered what balance paradigms that cloaking fits.
Cloaking provides two (albeit compromised given local) gameplay paradigms: guerilla warfare and espionage. Both of which you obviously either don't want in the game at all, or want to readily counter to the degree that they are largely ineffective against all but the most grossly incompetent.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:32:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Because, as it has been said numerous times already in this thread, it defeats the very purpose of stealth.
As has been said. But not as has been shown or argued. You keep saying that in order to be stealthy you must be 100% all the time perfectly stealthy. This is false.
Also, not only did I address those quotes, but they are not arguements as to why cloakers would no longer have advantages, they are simply assertions that they would not ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:39:00 -
[633]
Originally by: Goumindong
Who are these alliances that defend their ops in 0.0. The only time defense comes into play is if enemies are located and a force can be mobilized to counteract it.
any alliance worth a grain of salt is one of these alliances
as for your quoting go back to post 610 and 611 ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:41:00 -
[634]
Edited by: SiJira on 25/05/2007 19:40:09
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Because, as it has been said numerous times already in this thread, it defeats the very purpose of stealth.
As has been said. But not as has been shown or argued. You keep saying that in order to be stealthy you must be 100% all the time perfectly stealthy. This is false.
Also, not only did I address those quotes, but they are not arguements as to why cloakers would no longer have advantages, they are simply assertions that they would not
actually they define exactly why - maybe you should try reading for once isntead of having us directly quote the posts
maybe you arent too observant but making my thread stay on the top page is more likely to prevent a nerf than force one - good luck making 30 pages out of a 2 page discussion that has turned into 22 ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:45:00 -
[635]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Goumindong
Who are these alliances that defend their ops in 0.0. The only time defense comes into play is if enemies are located and a force can be mobilized to counteract it.
any alliance worth a grain of salt is one of these alliances
as for your quoting go back to post 610 and 611
Neither BoB, Goonswarm, RA, Fix, nor any other 0.0 entity does this. Clearly no alliances in 0.0 are worth their salt.
I addressed everything in 610 in 611... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.25 19:50:00 -
[636]
Edited by: Goumindong on 25/05/2007 19:53:15
Originally by: SiJira Edited by: SiJira on 25/05/2007 19:40:09
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Because, as it has been said numerous times already in this thread, it defeats the very purpose of stealth.
As has been said. But not as has been shown or argued. You keep saying that in order to be stealthy you must be 100% all the time perfectly stealthy. This is false.
Also, not only did I address those quotes, but they are not arguements as to why cloakers would no longer have advantages, they are simply assertions that they would not
actually they define exactly why - maybe you should try reading for once isntead of having us directly quote the posts
maybe you arent too observant but making my thread stay on the top page is more likely to prevent a nerf than force one - good luck making 30 pages out of a 2 page discussion that has turned into 22
No, they arent. They are assertions that they would have no advantage. And all assertions were addressed directly after the posts.
edit:
Look, the usefullness of a cloak is proportional to the amount of time it allows you to stay hidden. With no cloak, you stay hidden for about 1-5 seconds. With a cloak you stay hidden for[using my idea], assuming your enemy has perfect scanning skills, and you are within the range of a probe, 2 minutes.
The difference between the cloak and the not cloak is about 1 minute, 55 seconds, or 2300%.
Now if you add in that its harder to catch the cloaker, he can still do his job, so long as he not foolish[because he has a 2300% buffer in time to locate assuming his opponents have max skills]
You and Pixie have been asserting that the difference between 1-5 seconds and 2 minutes is nothing. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:01:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Goumindong As has been said. But not as has been shown or argued. You keep saying that in order to be stealthy you must be 100% all the time perfectly stealthy. This is false.
Thanks to local, you are NEVER stealthy. Your presence, cloaked or not, is ALWAYS known.
Originally by: Goumindong Also, not only did I address those quotes, but they are not arguements as to why cloakers would no longer have advantages, they are simply assertions that they would not
Baloney. You most certainly did NOT address Post 508, which specifically exposed the contradiction in your assertions.
Here's the question you keep side-stepping...
With the ability to use local chat to identify an unwelcome guest, AND the means to detect and defeat a cloaked pilot, why would you not simply suspend all vulnerable operations until the intruder was routed?
You're relegating cloaking to at best a minor nuisance, while significantly undermining (if not outright eliminating) its value for guerilla warfare and/or espionage.
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:06:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Goumindong As has been said. But not as has been shown or argued. You keep saying that in order to be stealthy you must be 100% all the time perfectly stealthy. This is false.
Thanks to local, you are NEVER stealthy. Your presence, cloaked or not, is ALWAYS known.
Originally by: Goumindong Also, not only did I address those quotes, but they are not arguements as to why cloakers would no longer have advantages, they are simply assertions that they would not
Baloney. You most certainly did NOT address Post 508, which specifically exposed the contradiction in your assertions.
Here's the question you keep side-stepping...
With the ability to use local chat to identify an unwelcome guest, AND the means to detect and defeat a cloaked pilot, why would you not simply suspend all vulnerable operations until the intruder was routed?
You're relegating cloaking to at best a minor nuisance, while significantly undermining (if not outright eliminating) its value for guerilla warfare and/or espionage.
As long as there are static points that people must use, belts being the prime example, then local is a counter to having static belts.
Remove belts and other static points such as gates. Have stations and plantes move so you hvae to scan for them, and make a few other adjustments then you can worry about local.
As it stands now, local helps all people involved. If you remove local without making drastic changes to the rest of eve you only help those people who are cloaked and hamper those uncloaked even further.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:10:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Jayson Lee
As long as there are static points that people must use, belts being the prime example, then local is a counter to having static belts.
dynamics belts are coming up soon ... ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
ForumPosterAlt
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:11:00 -
[640]
I'm being forced to post this in a uselessly old thread by ISD. Its good in theory to keep everything nice and orderly except nobody is going to read this far so its ultimately worthless. ISD should lock old threads like these and let the new ones be. Anyways here goes nothing.
I say logistics ships should get a 99% cpu bonus to a new module that allows them to detect and pinpoint cloaked objects.
Additionally all members in the logistics ships gang can target the craft through the logistics ship, so like using the logistics ship as a remote sensor.
The new module would give location and radius of the cloaked object and nothing else more specify. Members of the gang will simply know there is a cloaked object at a certain location of certain size.
Because cloaking works by bending light and reflecting/absorbing sound waves, this new module would pinpoint cloaked objects by sensing immediate anomalies of light, that is to say, by detecting relatively close(250km) imperfections in predictable light physics. Just like scientists can find dark matter through imperfections of bending light, so too this module detects cloaked objects.
Because this method would use light absorption rather than sonar, if the cloaked object would have nothing to let it know that it has been detected and its exact location pinpointed.
I think for every measure there needs to be a counter-measure and this would be the perfect way to implement a cloaking counter-measure, and make better use of an extremely unpopular shipclass.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:13:00 -
[641]
why should the cloaker not know you are targetting them ?
if you really believe in balance then you are tipping the scales five fold ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
ForumPosterAlt
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:15:00 -
[642]
For a wee bit of realism. Any good player would know when there is a logistics ship on screen anyways.
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Aindrias
Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:26:00 -
[643]
Too many damn pages to read,
But you should change cloaking because nearly every other active mod in the game drains SOMETHING.. every Passive Mod isn't a effective as the Actives... an easy example are Membranes/Plates and Hardeners.
Developing Passive cloak that wasn't as effect as an active cloak (which takes some sort of fuel) is a neat idea too.
Nos's and other Energy Vamps/Neuts need a fixing too, so they're sorta outside this realm of comparison
See what you can do with Paintbrush? |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:26:00 -
[644]
Originally by: Jayson Lee As long as there are static points that people must use, belts being the prime example, then local is a counter to having static belts.
Which we've already long established CCP is removing from the game.
Originally by: Jayson Lee Remove belts and other static points such as gates.
Whoa, now that's over the top. Belts? Sure. Gates? Hell no. Some static choke points NEED to remain, especially those like gates and stations which provide players a means for egress.
Originally by: Jayson Lee If you remove local without making drastic changes to the rest of eve you only help those people who are cloaked and hamper those uncloaked even further.
And if you nerf cloaks without removing local, then you gimp cloaks... even those with at-the-keyboard pilots.
Look, I'll cut you a deal. If you're willing to be patient for YOUR fix, I'm willing to be patient for MY fix. 'Till then, let's just make due with the imperfect system we have now.
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Katana Sengoku
Minmatar The Knights Templar Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.25 20:36:00 -
[645]
First off... to nerf cloaking would be to balance them within the game's mechanics. Cloaks were asked for and designed for recon, not to be abused with afk system disruptors. There are a great assest to Eve, but all too many times... once again... something gets overused, manipualted, exploited, until it becomes the newest griefing trend.
We all love combat, and we're only asking to keep the pvp pure. Afk cloaking is not a tactic, its lame. For those that say counter it by doing the same thing are horribly wrong. That is the WORST possible direction for this game to go.
Cloaks should require fuel. Lots of it. I have to make myself vulnerable everytime I put up a cyno... with fuel. No reason why cloakers can go forever. I'd also like to see an anti-cloaker. Like a sensor pulse that lights up cloakers for a few seconds without anyone but the anti-cloaker knowing... only able to activate every 2 mins.
Knowing is half the battle... not knowing is just unfair
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.25 21:24:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Katana Sengoku
We all love combat, and we're only asking to keep the pvp pure. Afk cloaking is not a tactic, its lame. For those that say counter it by doing the same thing are horribly wrong. That is the WORST possible direction for this game to go.
thats not the only way ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:22:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Jayson Lee As long as there are static points that people must use, belts being the prime example, then local is a counter to having static belts.
Which we've already long established CCP is removing from the game.
Originally by: Jayson Lee Remove belts and other static points such as gates.
Whoa, now that's over the top. Belts? Sure. Gates? Hell no. Some static choke points NEED to remain, especially those like gates and stations which provide players a means for egress.
Originally by: Jayson Lee If you remove local without making drastic changes to the rest of eve you only help those people who are cloaked and hamper those uncloaked even further.
And if you nerf cloaks without removing local, then you gimp cloaks... even those with at-the-keyboard pilots.
Look, I'll cut you a deal. If you're willing to be patient for YOUR fix, I'm willing to be patient for MY fix. 'Till then, let's just make due with the imperfect system we have now.
How about this for a deal. Give me a shield that only mining barges can fit. When I activate the shield I cannot do anything. However the shield can't be taken down by anyone. Not even a fleet of titans with thier DD can take me out. The shield requires a skill that takes 2 weeks to train. It requirs no special fuel and can run as long as I want it to with no worries about cap regen.
To make it balanced I cant warp out or mine roids, does this sound fair?
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:24:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Jayson Lee
To make it balanced I cant warp out or mine roids, does this sound fair?
sure as long as you cant just turn it off and warp out / start mining ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:32:00 -
[649]
23 pages. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
Horas Redwyne
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:42:00 -
[650]
Edited by: Horas Redwyne on 26/05/2007 14:43:57 Nerf the Klingons and Romulans too as your at it CCP.
They can cloak their ships and go AFK!!!!!
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pwnedgato
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:50:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Horas Redwyne Edited by: Horas Redwyne on 26/05/2007 14:43:57 Nerf the Klingons and Romulans too as your at it CCP.
They can cloak their ships and go AFK!!!!!
Gah Star Trek reference!!!... I forgive you though since unless you are an ultra star wars geek like me self you wouldn't know any star wars references. (about cloaking)
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Lord Frost
Minmatar The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2007.05.26 14:59:00 -
[652]
No one wants to read the thoughts of one man's rants. We all have an opinion... but damn SiJira, I think you can stop flooding. You probably stated the same thing 3 dozen times now. Get a life. You made your stance on what you think, move on... get a life.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.26 15:30:00 -
[653]
Edited by: SiJira on 26/05/2007 15:29:18
Originally by: Lord Frost No one wants to read the thoughts of one man's rants. We all have an opinion... but damn SiJira, I think you can stop flooding. You probably stated the same thing 3 dozen times now. Get a life. You made your stance on what you think, move on... get a life.
its clear on wich side of the issue you stand as goum has made just as many posts in this thread i think i will visit your system
and please dont call me a man - its creepy ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.05.26 15:56:00 -
[654]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Jayson Lee
To make it balanced I cant warp out or mine roids, does this sound fair?
sure as long as you cant just turn it off and warp out / start mining
Sure, what the current penalty, 30 seconds?
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Gibbal Slogspit
Buffed Rumpuss Zit Dids
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Posted - 2007.05.26 16:25:00 -
[655]
Nerf all ZE ISK FARMERS THAT CLOAK UP WHEN LOCAL GOES ABOVE 1!
A cloak as it were, offers a risk free 0.0 NPCing option. 0.0 is 0.0 safety, so nerfbat it.
Only thing I am against is a AoE bomb like thing that uncloaks everything, which makes recons/stealth bombers useless.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.26 17:33:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Jayson Lee How about this for a deal. Give me a shield...
Have I got the shield for you, now with wings even!
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.05.26 17:49:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Jayson Lee How about this for a deal. Give me a shield...
Have I got the shield for you, now with wings even!
I am betting this deleted as spam but... I take it you dont like my suggestion?
What is the difference? I want to be invulnerable when I mine, how is that any different than what you want?
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:02:00 -
[658]
Originally by: Aindrias Too many damn pages to read But you should change cloaking because nearly every other active mod in the game drains SOMETHING..
Snipped the irrelevant bit
You should read it all. Then you'll note that a COVOPS cloak requires 10k CPU...hence only usable by dedicated covops/recons with the CPU reduction bonus.
And for the junk cloaks...while they do not drain cap the lock time hit is ridiculous.
Just FYI "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:07:00 -
[659]
Originally by: Jayson Lee I am betting this deleted as spam but... I take it you dont like my suggestion?
What is the difference? I want to be invulnerable when I mine, how is that any different than what you want?
So fit a cloak yourself. Whatsamatter? Don't want to lose a high slot?
And no, I neither want you or me to be invulnerable. I want to be covert. 23 pages and that still hasn't sunken in yet?
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.05.26 18:33:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Jayson Lee I am betting this deleted as spam but... I take it you dont like my suggestion?
What is the difference? I want to be invulnerable when I mine, how is that any different than what you want?
So fit a cloak yourself. Whatsamatter? Don't want to lose a high slot?
And no, I neither want you or me to be invulnerable. I want to be covert. 23 pages and that still hasn't sunken in yet?
Since when does being covert mean that you can never be found? Last I looked we have all sorts of covert ops in real life governements, and while they can be difficult to be found, they are not impossible.
You have your job you are trying to accomplish, I am asking for a reasonable way to stop you. Otherwise what is wrong with me asking for the same thing you already have.
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