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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
119
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
I agree, kill mails are a negative for Eve. War/combat should be about something greater than a bunch of silly stats. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
170
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Removing posts would improve forum threads. No more bad posting. |
Major Templar
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Armored Phoenix wrote:[quote=Vimsy Vortis]I have tried nearly every aspect of EVE, and have discovered that nearly every null-sec corp requires that you be on X number of killmails per month or get kicked out.
Every corp I've ever been in has never ever required "X number of killmails per month or get kicked out" and would never support it. In fact, I've talked to a very good friend in an elite PvP corp in an elite PvP alliance and they don't have that rule. So either you are finding the wrong corps or you don't get the true grasp on PvP. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
170
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Major Templar wrote:Every corp I've ever been in has never ever required "X number of killmails per month or get kicked out" and would never support it. In fact, I've talked to a very good friend in an elite PvP corp in an elite PvP alliance and they don't have that rule. So either you are finding the wrong corps or you don't get the true grasp on PvP. I'm pretty sure he's just lying because reality does not support his argument. |
Arrinlay
Gateway Mining Division
0
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
There are only two types of corporations that require killmail counts to maintain membership...
1) Corporations that select on the most-skilled pilots in New Eden for the purposes of Player vs. Player engagements on a wide array of fronts, from solo work to fleet battles and everything in between, so as to maintain a reputation as a lethal and effective organization worthy of a) hiring, b) avoiding, c) attacking (for good challenge), or d) defining successful PvP methods.
2) New Corporations that don't have a clue about PvP and are hoping this requirement somehow tricks a veteran into sticking with them and, hopefully, one day leading them to be a corporation similar to that described in #1.
Killmails serve an invaluable purpose in EVE Online and many other games, especially those of the MMO sort, as they help track and define how combat is taking place, why it is taking place, and where flaws and best-practices are taking place. If anything, Killmails most help CCP - the developing company - by making this information easy to capture, analyze, and work from.
As far as players concern, the need for killmails ranges from pure unadulterated self-pride to in-depth strategy building sessions. Anyone who knows something about PvP in EVE will know there is no such thing as a 'best fit' for any ship, just as there is no best ship for any engagement. Frigates kill Battlecruisers, Battleships kill frigates without drones, and that Orca really did take down a battleship...killmails hold excellent stories, stupid tragedies, awesome experiences, and important lessons learned the lucky...but more often, hard...way.
Killmails are by far NOT the reason why EVE PvP needs help (though it does indeed need help in some areas...always will, such is the nature of 100% player-driven content) but really are an indispensable tool for improving EVE Online.
TL;DR Smart and Logically Supported Answer in the event your question and proposed topic isn't a trolling post. Please read thoroughly so you fully understand the importance, and therefore necessity, of killmails.
If Troll, disregard above text - you're an idiot, please return to the bridge labeled "Faction Warfare" and make yourself useful by forcing a hapless GM or Developer to actually acknowledge the existence of those threads and their needs. |
LtCol Laurentius
Digital Fury Corporation
6
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Personally I dont have much issues with KMs per se, nor do I have any problems with what information can be gathered from them, or that corps and alliances use them to gauge activity.
No, my main problem with KMs is actually about combat efficiency and tactical variation. Because you wont show up on a KM unless you commit a hostile act aganst a target, you exclude several legitimate combat functions that are vital for a healthy fleet - i.e. scouts, boosters, logistics etc. Some will "kill mail w hore", reducing their efficiency and attention to their primary function just to get on the mail. Many will simply refuse to fly ships that will get them a low number of killmails. And thus, many fleets are composed primarily of DPS ships, with too little logistics, too little tackle, too few scouts and no real attempt to coordinate and use EWAR. Such simplified fleets dont give potential FCs the real tactical challenges besides comparing numbers. And thus these fleets breeds a blob mindset in both FCs and fleet members. Of course this is a simplification, but I believe the potential of EVE tactics would be better utilized without the current KM system.
Tl;DR: Killmails dulls down EVE combat, and is in part responsible for numbers beeing utilized before tactics. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
325
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
I have never heard of a corp requiring X kills per month. I hear people saying respond to CTA's but not getting X kills. |
Leonova Klystra
Disingenuous Duality
5
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Posted - 2011.12.28 01:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Yes, remove killmails. Then suicide gankers won't see my lolfailfit drake that's hull tanked. |
Amro One
One.
52
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
If you need X amount of KMs a month then you are doing it wrong. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
692
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
Youd know youd probably would have avoided much more of this flak if you posted with your main!
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Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
16
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
You mention no other game has something of the kind - well, for example the paperdoll interface in Ultima Online gives away everything character has equipped even before seeing everything as loot.
Killmails are good references for recalling great space battles. I have referred to mails and battle reports generated from mails numerous times when discussing certain fleet formats or when simply having a laugh with my spaceship friends - it is much more illustrative than mere narrative (and mails are not distorted in time, much like original documents from an archive vs someone's memories).
Eve is about honour not killmails. In fact the mails are a great testament to your virtuous path in eve and if someone wanted them removed, my first guess would be that the person talking can't kill anything without their falcon alt and is ashamed of it or something. I don't mean this as a personal insult to the OP just to be clear, but I really can't see what makes them bad.
Killmails can be used for reference to ponder on someone's virtuousness on the following levels: Honesty: has the pilot brought the fit he claims he can use? can they follow fitting guidelines for a gang format? Compassion: is the pilot fitting modules which benefit everyone in the gang instead of only himself? Valor: is the pilot's combat record evidence of no fear agains unfavourable odds? Justice: does the pilot regularly engage in anti-piracy? Sacrifice: is there evidence of selfless actions (such as suicide tackling, bumping etc) for the greater benefit of others? Honour: always presume Honour, but look for evidence of dishonoured duels and needing ECM to win. Spirituality: can you see creativity and a deep understanding of game mechanics from the fit on the killmail? Humility: the effective use of cheaper ship hulls and fits instead of needing maximum pimpage to win.
((originally i wanted post a comparison of eve with no killmails and sex with no erection, but this somehow went better than expected)) The Order of the Falcon or Hin +ˇslenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
28
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ottersmacker wrote: Eve is about honour not killmails.
LMAO, that was funny, thanks.
Serious, math it out.
Goons do thier hulk killing why?
Extreme example T1 fit Talos runs 80 mill? Generic fit Hulk is 240 mill
Pop 20 Hulks you get 300% ISK done to ISK taken, 2.4 billion to pad the number, bury the Hulks in fleet kills and you look like a super star.
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Ispai Ponue
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Ispai Ponue wrote:Armored Phoenix wrote:Ganking is the equivalent of beating up the elderly (namely, a victim that can't fight back) People that can't differentiate between computer games and real life are ******* scary and probably shouldn't be allowed to participate in either. I was going to say I somewhat agree with your post, but this gem just makes me want to run away as fast and as far as possible. It's called an analogy. Not seeing that makes you scary.
A good analogy must be moderately realistic. Saying that eating corn on the cob is like pooping on grandma's face doesn't actually provide any useful information, except that there's something wrong with the person who thinks the analogy makes sense.
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Cipher Jones
199
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Quote:You mention no other game has something of the kind...
Dispelled that myth in the other thread... Wc3 GW SC LOL
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Ispai Ponue
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:I agree, kill mails are a negative for Eve. War/combat should be about something greater than a bunch of silly stats.
Well, even in the real world it is not. Acceptable losses, all that. It's all in the numbers. |
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1018
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Posted - 2011.12.28 02:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
To an extent..either way really... 5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-á If You Like My Sig, Like Me! |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
28
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ispai Ponue wrote:Skydell wrote:Ispai Ponue wrote:Armored Phoenix wrote:Ganking is the equivalent of beating up the elderly (namely, a victim that can't fight back) People that can't differentiate between computer games and real life are ******* scary and probably shouldn't be allowed to participate in either. I was going to say I somewhat agree with your post, but this gem just makes me want to run away as fast and as far as possible. It's called an analogy. Not seeing that makes you scary. A good analogy must be moderately realistic. Saying that eating corn on the cob is like pooping on grandma's face doesn't actually provide any useful information, except that there's something wrong with the person who thinks the analogy makes sense.
His analogy was fine. He stressed that most PvP is about picking fights you know you can't lose. When put in a closed society where lawlessness is written in stone, some loot and riot in loose gangs called corps and alliances. They will dominate the closed society.
How do you think EVE came to be? Data from EVE was used to form public policy. Now that is scary.
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Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
129
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
you will never get this, even tho i wish they would be removed completely, the best you could wish for is a y killed x, but seeing as ccp has just gone on and updated the kill mails to list implants yea... looks like there here to stay I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Armored Phoenix
Phoenix Stellar Mining Industries
13
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Posted - 2011.12.28 03:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Youd know youd probably would have avoided much more of this flak if you posted with your main!
I posted with this character since it is my main. This is the first character I ever created, is the primary character I play, and my PVP alt is currently on an account suspended due to RL finances.
LtCol Laurentius wrote:Personally I dont have much issues with KMs per se, nor do I have any problems with what information can be gathered from them, or that corps and alliances use them to gauge activity.
No, my main problem with KMs is actually about combat efficiency and tactical variation. Because you wont show up on a KM unless you commit a hostile act aganst a target, you exclude several legitimate combat functions that are vital for a healthy fleet - i.e. scouts, boosters, logistics etc. Some will "kill mail w hore", reducing their efficiency and attention to their primary function just to get on the mail. Many will simply refuse to fly ships that will get them a low number of killmails. And thus, many fleets are composed primarily of DPS ships, with too little logistics, too little tackle, too few scouts and no real attempt to coordinate and use EWAR. Such simplified fleets dont give potential FCs the real tactical challenges besides comparing numbers. And thus these fleets breeds a blob mindset in both FCs and fleet members. Of course this is a simplification, but I believe the potential of EVE tactics would be better utilized without the current KM system.
Tl;DR: Killmails dulls down EVE combat, and is in part responsible for numbers beeing utilized before tactics.
Thank for addressing a point I did not think to make originally. My PVP alt is specialized in ewar and stealth, and therefore, would not show up on most killmails, anyway. Since the character acts as a scout, ewar, cyno, or other support role, I do not fly DPS fits with it. As a result of this, I do not show up on most killmails.
I understand the use, and even need, for public K/D ratios, and fully support those. I even support a limited KM system, that says something like, "(Player A) flying (ship type X) killed (Player B's ship type Y)."
However, my problem lies in the amount of intel provided by the existing killmail system. Why should everyone in the world, suddenly be able to know exactly what was fitted on my ship, and what was in my cargohold? I could see KMs listing items that survived, since those can be looted by somebody. But how could you possibly know what items I had that were destroyed, unless you had used a ship or cargo scanner on my ship before you destroyed it?
I'm not saying that KMs should be removed from the game, only that the amount of information provided in them be limited to what you could learn after my ship is already destroyed. I believe that this meta-gaming statistic needs to be altered, to reduce the level of whoring, e-peen waving, douchebaggery that exists due to the current system. PVP should not be about padding statistics, it should be about fighting someone for a real purpose. Real purposes include claiming/defending sov, denial of assets, disruption of operations, having fun, even for lols/tears.
KM whoring just to pad statistics makes people not different than any of the children and basement-dwellers that spend their days playing CoD, BF, Halo, etc., and get upset when their K/D ratio shifts a point or two towards the loss side of things. People that do this, really need to put down their controller/step away from their computer for a few days, get a life, and try interacting with people in RL for a change. Life is not all about statistics. Learn that and anyone can become a better person.
Have fun and fly safe. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2011.12.28 04:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
Killmails do need to be looked at in the future. Yet I think there is some easier fruit to pick before we get to that.
Moving to a modular POS and Modular corp system would mean less effect from spies so there will be less of these corps that demand x kills a month. As it will be harder to recruit when you require BS. |
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Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
49
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Posted - 2011.12.28 04:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
I never had a kill mail until today, so decided to get one to have an opinion on it, and I say OP is wrong. I even fitted terribad T1 crap on a frigate to prove OP's post wrong.
All of this in the spirit of research. I don't see anything wrong in the current Kill Mail system, except perhaps LAST BLOW guys should get like a star or a hello kitty face next to their names for showing they laid the final blow for maximum trolling, like I did back in EQ1 with my ShadowKnight and KSed final blow off everybody with my Buffed to AA hell Harm touch which I proceeded to SS and post on forums, yeah, good times.
Also hi to my companions for this venture for being awesome and letting me pvp with them in my crap fit. You rock and make eve better with your open minded attitudes and also boo at the guys in Cynabals that forced us out of our gatecamp and pwned us
True Story Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco |
Xolve
Intaki Armaments Important Internet Spaceship League
329
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Posted - 2011.12.28 04:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:1. Combat log. Its mine. It is not effortless to kill you. I earned it, I deserve it. If I choose to share that intel with the internet for free that is my and the internets business. 2. Killboards. They were broken, IMHO, for listing POS modules and other inanimate objects. They fixed that, and now keep track of implants. 3. Forced PvP. If your corp forces you to do PvP that you don't want to do, you are a ******* leech. Don't join a PvP corp for the sake of being in a PvP corp, join one for shooting motherfuckers. 4. Intel. Between local and evewho as intel tools you can be an intel pro in any sector of space. Your only excuse is that you are lazy. There is no reason to want intel on YOUR enemy. If I am trying to kill you, you need intel on me. Those are the tools that help you get the killmail that have nothing to do with killmails, and they are lethal. Cry about them while you are trying to kill PvP moar.
Funny coming from a 'don't griefs me' carebear ****** last week.. sudden change of heart? ...probably bad posting |
Ispai Ponue
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.28 06:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
Armored Phoenix wrote:My PVP alt is specialized in ewar and stealth, and therefore, would not show up on most killmails, anyway. Since the character acts as a scout, ewar, cyno, or other support role, I do not fly DPS fits with it. As a result of this, I do not show up on most killmails.
This is just plain wrong, or at the least the reason you're not on KM's is not what you think.
EWAR shows up on killmails. Anyone that has an active, offensive module on the ship when it explodes, or at any time while it was being exploded, show up on the killmail. I've flown tackle, track, jam, and damp. I've run the gambit in ewar. Not this character, who's only had the privilege of being podded by myself, but on both my others. I'm not on the top of the KM, which is reserved to damage, but am certainly listed.
Consider the bottom 5 or so pilots on this KM for example: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13353293
In fact, fly dict and you get on the KM of everyone who died in your bubble, which is why most of the highest rated PvP pilots on battleclinic are in fact dictor pilots.
Scout is understandable, since your role is not to play a part at all in the actual melee, but if you're not getting on KMs as ewar then you're not activating your modules, plain and simple. It's hard to think of a role that's more KM ***** friendly THAN ewar actually. Even scouts can pop in and shoot a turret or rocket at something when the outcome is obvious...
Don't know what you're really crying about, but your story smells funny.
Quote:Life is not all about statistics.
Well, 98% of it is anyway. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
392
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Posted - 2011.12.28 07:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
eve has killmails? a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Pinaculus
Insanely Twisted
81
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Posted - 2011.12.28 07:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yes, let's remove the only reason a lot of people even bother to PVP at all. That will improve PVP. I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
Opertone
Signal 7
61
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Posted - 2011.12.28 09:09:00 -
[56] - Quote
It is unethical to monitor and demand certain level of activities. As harsh as megacorporations can go, client oriented companies monitor service time and demand very fast service.
Bad corps demand activity, but who are they? Basement trolls? You can tell them to GTFO and get some life. They aren't your bosses. They are internet assess.
It is bad, don't get involved with bad, you'll do fine. Killmails have nothing to do with it. It is bad CEOs. |
Alara IonStorm
740
|
Posted - 2011.12.28 09:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
I love Killmails. Love them.
Love looking at what the other guy had fit and figuring out why. Love having a permanent record of who I beat and who I lost too. Love knowing how much it cost, how much ISK I burned or how much I destroyed.
If anything I think there should be a CCP Sponsored Kill Board Site as well on the off chance anything happens to Battleclinic or EVEKill so no records get lost.
It is not about Epeen for me. I collect them for Funsies. It is the biggest reason I put down the Raven or my Exploration Ship and find people to shoot. |
baltec1
262
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Posted - 2011.12.28 10:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Cowards who dont pvp now will not pvp if you remove killmails. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Arklight Project Fade 2 Black
118
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Posted - 2011.12.28 11:01:00 -
[59] - Quote
Works as intended, petition closed.
No really, this is sadly the way CCP encourages the blood/tearshed. It's all about hurting players, taking what they own, feeling good about it and boast about it. So in terms of role playing games many players chose the tear harvester demon class.
It's established, removing it would make people emo quit rage, though I guess, those players deserve some crying themselves. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
400
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Posted - 2011.12.28 11:05:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dear OP,
It sounds like somebody's fit got made fun of by his corpmates after he FINALLY participated in some pvp and got blown up.
If your corpmates pick on your fits and demand that you actually participate in their fleets more often, then change corps. Don't blame EVE for your poor choice(s). Search the recruitment forum and do a little legwork. You can find corps that aren't hard-asses about constantly participating in fights.
(But 3 KM's per month is pretty laid back if you ask me - that sounds more like a minimum participation requirement to make sure you use your *main* with them and be part of the corp, not just fly an alt with them sometimes. Again - you're trying not to fit in by placing your alt in their corp and then blaming someone other than yourself.)
Removing ship fittings from killmails would be bad for several reasons:
1) It would encourage K/D padding with people blowing up empty ships on their alts. 2) It would allow people who are bad at pvp or ship fitting to hide their incompetency. 3) It would hurt mercs ability to calculate values of their kills
Pretend Eve is a high-tech, sci-fi world where information availability is high. Ship fittings get registered and scanned automatically once their hulls are breached and they have no protection left.
And lastly, HTFU and quit whining. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
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