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Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.13 14:48:00 - [91] Originally by: Ryysa Err, wrong, if you succeed a jam chance on him while he has you locked, he will lose the lock and be unable to lock ANYTHING for 20 seconds. I hope this clears up your confusion It sure does! Thanks! ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.13 15:47:00 - [92] Originally by: Augeas Does ECM Burst have any effect upon a lock in progress? It should. But it probably won't indicate for a bit. Same with dampeners, if you're locking and get dampened below damping range, it says in a while "attempt to target xxx failed". Won't give my head for this though, feel free to test it. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Mai'Shin	Posted - 2007.06.13 23:51:00 - [93] Originally by: Aramendel Teh Answer Cheers, that helps a lot. Also, thanks to the OP, great guide.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.14 15:43:00 - [94] Hehe, I'm glad aramendel hoes this thread when I'm gone EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Vitrael Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:58:00 - [95] Awesome guide. Thanks very much Ryysa. I would like to see more about the effectiveness of target painters while using turrets if you ever get into that! ----------
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.28 15:46:00 - [96] Edited by: Ryysa on 28/06/2007 15:45:33 That's kinda hard to show properly. Basically it flat out increases your chance to hit, however that's not very useful, since if your chance to hit is 1%, and you boost it to 2% it's not going to make a huge amount of difference. I guess I'll try to run some numbers, however not now, I'm rather busy these days (fulltime job + studies), perhaps on the weekend... EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Seriya Caldari RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.11 00:46:00 - [97] Great guide, contains a lot of hard-to-find information - sticky it!
Llyando Autora Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.15 09:40:00 - [98] Edited by: Llyando Autora on 15/07/2007 09:41:42 One comment on ECM chance. Back before they nerfed ECM by 0.5, it was possible for a rook to get an ECM strength of 13 or so, putting it over the sensor strength of many small ships. However despite this, whilst the target was still inside optimal it was possible to not get a jam; indicating that there is a maximum J/S after which the chance is a fixed amount. COuldnt belive it the first time it occured in combat so tested with corp mates later and it confirmed the initial results. Not sure if this has changed with the nerf, but probably still worth testing. IIRC a rook can still top over a 10 strength which would make this a fairly simple test. From there to get the probability, without a few days of testing I don't know. Very useful thread here, I wish it was around when I started!
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.15 09:55:00 - [99] Originally by: Llyando Autora One comment on ECM chance. Back before they nerfed ECM by 0.5, it was possible for a rook to get an ECM strength of 13 or so, putting it over the sensor strength of many small ships. However despite this, whilst the target was still inside optimal it was possible to not get a jam; Uhm, I have tested this extensively back then, and I never had a problem. Also, afaik, even now you can get a rook over the max sensor strength of some frigates. I will test it, but I never ever have failed a jamming hit this way. Quote: indicating that there is a maximum J/S after which the chance is a fixed amount. COuldnt belive it the first time it occured in combat so tested with corp mates later and it confirmed the initial results. I guess I have to test it some more, because my testing results show something totally different. I used the same method a long time ago to test if jammers have reduced jamming potential at very close ranges. A scorp with racials and a really low sensor strength frig. Never one did it fail jamming. Quote: Not sure if this has changed with the nerf, but probably still worth testing. IIRC a rook can still top over a 10 strength which would make this a fairly simple test. From there to get the probability, without a few days of testing I don't know. Well, probability is 100%, at least from my experience. Perhaps you had desync issues and your guy was in falloff? Quote: Very useful thread here, I wish it was around when I started! Hehe, thank you. The reason I made it was exactly the fact, that there was none around when I started either. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Kua Immortal RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.15 23:13:00 - [100] Edited by: Kua Immortal on 15/07/2007 23:13:42 Excellent guide, full of hard facts! Originally by: Ryysa 8. Calculating chances with falloff. Many of the EW modules have a falloff range. A module has a 100% chance to hit from 0km to it's optimal range. At optimal+falloff the chance to hit drops to 50% and at optimal +2xfalloff it is 0%. This means that at optimal+falloff there is a 50% chance that the module will fail and not do anything. I found this a bit misleading though. I take chance to hit as meaning at optimal + falloff your dampener has a 50% chance of success, but it acts as normal when successful. That's not the case, you always are successful its just you dampen less effectively (presumably half as effectively as in optimal). The same would apply for target painters and tracking disruptors I assume. Where as with ECM I suppose you would be half as likely to jam.
wictro	Posted - 2007.07.15 23:41:00 - [101] You forgot "Signal Disruption Amplifier" from ECM related rigs. Tech I gives -20% capacitor need for ecm and ecm-burst modules. Tech II gives -25% on those. Great guide, -wic
Kua Immortal RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.16 03:54:00 - [102] Originally by: wictro You forgot "Signal Disruption Amplifier" from ECM related rigs. Tech I gives -20% capacitor need for ecm and ecm-burst modules. Tech II gives -25% on those. Great guide, -wic Easily overlooked. I can't present the facts, but I'd expect CCC rigs to be better :P.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.16 06:23:00 - [103] Edited by: Ryysa on 16/07/2007 06:25:49 Originally by: Kua Immortal Originally by: Ryysa 8. Calculating chances with falloff. Many of the EW modules have a falloff range. A module has a 100% chance to hit from 0km to it's optimal range. At optimal+falloff the chance to hit drops to 50% and at optimal +2xfalloff it is 0%. This means that at optimal+falloff there is a 50% chance that the module will fail and not do anything. I found this a bit misleading though. I take chance to hit as meaning at optimal + falloff your dampener has a 50% chance of success, but it acts as normal when successful. That's not the case, you always are successful its just you dampen less effectively (presumably half as effectively as in optimal). Well, then DO go into the game and test this. This is EXACTLY the case, EXACTLY as described. And you are wrong. Quote: The same would apply for target painters and tracking disruptors I assume. No it wouldn't. Using either of those in falloff results in a CHANCE of the module not working. If it hits, then it hits with full effectiveness, if it doesn't, then it doesn't hit at all. I thought this was common knowledge by now. Quote: Where as with ECM I suppose you would be half as likely to jam. Yes, but that's because ECM is chance based. Please do your research before spreading false truths though. Originally by: Kua Immortal Easily overlooked. I can't present the facts, but I'd expect CCC rigs to be better :P. CCC rigs are only good for carebearing or on capitals. EW has not really much to do with those things, apart from using sensor dampeners/nos against carriers. Originally by: wictro You forgot "Signal Disruption Amplifier" from ECM related rigs. Tech I gives -20% capacitor need for ecm and ecm-burst modules. Tech II gives -25% on those. Great guide, -wic I will add this sometime soon. Thank you for pointing it out! EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Kua Immortal RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.16 16:17:00 - [104] Edited by: Kua Immortal on 16/07/2007 16:19:41 So that's what it's like to be hit by the Ryysa train? Ouch Well my mate must have been lying when we tested it :P, I'll take a look at it again before responding. Explain your comment about CCCs, and do try to be nice . I have 2 on my celestis and an inverted signal projector - I pimp it like that :P - and I thought it was the best choice of rigs.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.16 17:33:00 - [105] Well, thats random chance for you. And the reason why certain people (me included) are rather touchy about the "reduced effect" bullcrap (excuse my french) is because it's a rather common eve myth/disinformation which should be squashed quickly on sight. And, of cource, it's silghtly annoying when you get called wrong in something you tested yourself from someone who had his (wrong) information 2nd hand. Just imagine yourself saying "I have tested this and it works this way..." and someone replying "You are wrong because I have heared from my friend...".
Arctic Spring	Posted - 2007.07.16 17:47:00 - [106] Does ECM work on rats? I can fly Caldari frigates, soon cruisers and I like the idea of electornic warfare, plus i think the backbird looks nice,
Kua Immortal RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.16 18:02:00 - [107] Edited by: Kua Immortal on 16/07/2007 18:01:54 Originally by: Aramendel Well, thats random chance for you. And the reason why certain people (me included) are rather touchy about the "reduced effect" bullcrap (excuse my french) is because it's a rather common eve myth/disinformation which should be squashed quickly on sight. And, of cource, it's silghtly annoying when you get called wrong in something you tested yourself from someone who had his (wrong) information 2nd hand. Just imagine yourself saying "I have tested this and it works this way..." and someone replying "You are wrong because I have heared from my friend...". I also can't stand it when people believe something they are told and talk it about it as though it is truth. That's why I wanted to find out for myself. My corpmates seemed so convinced that there was a reduced effect in falloff I guess I also believed it. The small original test we did seemed to confirm it though, but it was far from thorough. The second test I did, I didn't count but I think I must have activated the mod at least ten times and it appeared to be successful every single time. The chances are so slim that there must be something up. I think, probably, that using show info on the target ship was not the best way of testing whether the dampener had been successful or not. Anyway I'm absolutely sure you're both right on this and I will find a new way to test it and content myself . And certainly Ryysa was justified in being somewhat ****ed off. I wasn't complaining about that, it was a genuinely interesting experience to be on the receiving end of the full wrath of her rhetoric .
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.16 19:02:00 - [108] Originally by: Arctic Spring Does ECM work on rats? I can fly Caldari frigates, soon cruisers and I like the idea of electornic warfare, plus i think the backbird looks nice, You like modern art, too? And nope, NPCs are EW immune. Target painters work on them, but that module is EW only in name.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:17:00 - [109] Edited by: Ryysa on 17/07/2007 06:18:15 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Arctic Spring Does ECM work on rats? I can fly Caldari frigates, soon cruisers and I like the idea of electornic warfare, plus i think the backbird looks nice, You like modern art, too? And nope, NPCs are EW immune. Target painters work on them, but that module is EW only in name. Actually ECM does work on npc's. Sensor dampening does not, but you can successfully target jam NPC's :) Also, when they get unjammed, they automatically attack the person who jammed them. Quote: And certainly Ryysa was justified in being somewhat **ed off. I wasn't complaining about that, it was a genuinely interesting experience to be on the receiving end of the full wrath of her rhetoric . Hey, if you think I was ed off, you ain't seen nothing yet! Quote:** EDIT: And for what its worth I'm now convinced that falloff on ewar mods works exactly as Ryysa described it . I'd been a bit of a nub and had been testing it at optimal+half falloff (where the chance of success is very high) and when I tested it again another 10 or 20 times I was unsuccessful once or twice. Not exactly scientific but enough for me :D. Sorry Ryysa . <3, well I'm glad you found out how it works :P And randomness is never too scientific. Perhaps you can ask how CCP generate their random numbers :) Regarding rigs... Putting CCC rigs on celestis is what I call a true waste of money. And on an arazu, you're much better off with two dampening rigs instead. Considering the fact that dampening rigs are bugged and do not incur a stacking penalty from eachother (last I checked anyway), you would be better (and cheaper off) fitting 3 sensor dampening strength rigs on your celestis, and sticking a cap relay in the lows or something. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 07:34:00 - [110] Originally by: Ryysa you would be better (and cheaper off) fitting 3 sensor dampening strength rigs on your celestis, and sticking a cap relay in the lows or something Ooh! I get to correct Ryssa!! The sensor damp rigs have a calibration of 200, hence you can only fit two on most (all?) ships, including the Celestis.
Kua Immortal RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.17 07:54:00 - [111] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Ryysa you would be better (and cheaper off) fitting 3 sensor dampening strength rigs on your celestis, and sticking a cap relay in the lows or something Ooh! I get to correct Ryssa!! The sensor damp rigs have a calibration of 200, hence you can only fit two on most (all?) ships, including the Celestis. Indeed.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:48:00 - [112] Edited by: Ryysa on 17/07/2007 11:48:38 Well, I got to correct Aramendel today, so I guess it's only fair I get corrected too. But indeed, I did not take into consideration the calibration points when posting the stuff about the rigs. Still, CCC rigs are a waste in PvP (except capitals), if you need cap, use an injector. Since those CCC rigs will just make a hole in your wallet if you get nosed ;) I wouldn't rig a celestis anyway, but hey, that's just me. Either way, this discussion is going out of the scope of this guide. What is important, is that we got the falloff question solved and out of the way. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.07.21 07:31:00 - [113] If I am using drones and different racial type ecm modules how do I count them all together for getting jamming chance?
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.21 09:03:00 - [114] For example, you have 2 drones with 1 ECM strength, 1 ECM with 10 strength and 1 ECM with 5 strength. Your target has 20 sensorstrength. This gives you jamming chances of 2 * 5%, 1* 50% and 1 * 25%. Or, in other words, your target has 2 * a 95% chance, 1 * a 50% and 1* a 75% chance of NOT getting jammed. The chance of your target NOT getting jammed by any attempts is then 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.5 * 0.75 -> 0.338 or 33.8%. So all ECM together gives you a 66.2% chance to jam your target.
Mr Krosis The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.22 02:15:00 - [115] Originally by: Vitrael I would like to see more about the effectiveness of target painters while using turrets if you ever get into that! I've always thought target painters never got the recognition they deserved. After running a few numbers in response to another thread, then reading this, I figured I'd do a few more and contribute the results. Short answer: they're better than most people think The two painter numbers I'm using here are +37.5% which would be a fully trained painter with L5 spec skill on any old ship. Also included is +49.5% which would be flying a minmatar ship with painting bonus, and L4 spec skill / L5 ship skill. (I ment to do L5/L5 for the second, but didn't realize until after that the 49.5% number stuck in my head was only L4/L5. Oh well) I used the 0.5 ^ ((Transv / (Range * Tracking)) * (Res / Rad))^2 formula for this, assuming no accuracy loss due to falloff. With 0.01% (1 / 10,000) base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 0.767% +49.5% paint = 1.625% with 0.1% (1 / 1,000) base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 2.590% +49.5% paint = 4.547% with 1% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 8.927% +49.5% paint = 12.953% with 10% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 29.585% +49.5% paint = 35.693% with 25% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 48.035% +49.5% paint = 53.780% with 50% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 69.307% +49.5% paint = 73.335% with 75% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 85.885% +49.5% paint = 87.922% with 90% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 94.580% +49.5% paint = 95.395% with 99% base chance to hit +37.5% paint = 99.470% +49.5% paint = 99.551% So it definitly helps, especially when you have a low chance to hit. If I understand the turret chance to hit function right, your lowest 1% chance to hit is your wrecking hit, so going from 1 in 10,000 change to about 1 / 60 is pretty significant (makes you over 100x more likely to hit!). Another benefit from the painter is if you fit it on a tackler, your support will finish their lock faster if you get the paint on right away. I definitly wouldn't drop a web for it, but am considering dropping my stiletto's second web for a painter now. I have always used a painter on my rapier Also Ryysa you should update the section regarding targeting time. Teylorana has done some nice work reverse engineering that formula. The one she came up with is not a pretty formula, and breaks down at extremes, but it looks to be very accurate through the practical range. The original formula gets pretty inaccurate at larger sig radius. Scan Resolution vs Signature Radius Cheers -- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.28 11:20:00 - [116] just when I go for a vacation... Oh well, laptop ftw. Thanks for the Target Painting numbers, but without realistic examples it still won't help very much. Look at how I attempted to show the effect with tracking disruptors, on the DPS of ships... Perhaps it's possible to do something similar with target painting? Oh and, I will update the targeting section. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event
PussPuss	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:31:00 - [117] Just a quick question about Target Painters. I have just started using them, 2 on a maelstrom and notice a huge difference, and I am glad they are undervalued it makes it better for those of us who know better... If I paint a target and get an increase in signature radius, am I the only ship that gets the benefit or does the rest of my gang as well? I.e. do they paint the target for everyone? Thanks in advance...
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:44:00 - [118] Originally by: PussPuss Just a quick question about Target Painters. I have just started using them, 2 on a maelstrom and notice a huge difference, and I am glad they are undervalued it makes it better for those of us who know better... If I paint a target and get an increase in signature radius, am I the only ship that gets the benefit or does the rest of my gang as well? I.e. do they paint the target for everyone? Thanks in advance... The target is painted for everyone AFAIK. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
PussPuss	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:02:00 - [119] Thanks, if so, that could make a target painting specialised cruiser in a small gang a devastating weapon if you're minmatar, which my primary is... nice.
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.04 14:40:00 - [120] Just webbing it is a lot more devastating for the small target in at least 3/4 of situations. EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event

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8. Calculating chances with falloff.

8. Calculating chances with falloff.