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Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:46:00 - [1] Now this is just my opinion disagree if you like it wont hurt my feelings, But I think One of the Biggest and most important problems in EVE is alts. Theres 2 types of alts, The ones for rich people (second accounts) and the ones for poor people (Second Characters) Both Cause huge issues in EVE. Second accounts are probably one of the bigger issues, it allows people with more money to gain an unfair advantage over other players, they have the ability by using multiiple accounts to bypass many game rules and alot of the game mechanics Example soloing in a carrier is not possible if you only have 1 account, if you can afford a Cyno alt you now have bypassed the intended design of the game (in my opinion that sounds like an exploit). Another issue is with scamming, It seems every person in EVE has a Scaming alt now, if there were no alts there would be virtually now scamming in eve, you would scam someone and become instantly blackballed and eventually quit eve cause you wouldnt be able to do anything, but instead people just scam away and make more alts. Wars and pvp are drastically effected by alts you can use an alt to move goods, you can use a alt to sit at a gate and provide intel you can use a alt as bait you can use multiple accounts and always have a wingman able to follow your exact orders and fill exact roles without the problems associated with team comunication. Basically you name it and alts have effected all of eve drastically and for the worst. I dont know what can be done about multiple accounts, I doubt CCP would do anything about it cause they make assloads of money, But a Family feature could be added to EVE that could correct this and make eve alot more interesting. Make an account , pick a first and last name , finish character creation, if you want another character you pick a first name last name carries over from the original so all of your alts will be linked by ancestory. The only way to fix multiple accounts is to have ccp link multiple accounts if its to the same household in the same manner so once someone creats an eve account all other accounts and characters will always be under that same fictional last name. all names wwouldnt have to change, just under your character description it would show a family name. Anyways just an idea if a bit long winded :)
Ilkin Kaptan	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:48:00 - [2] Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:49:46 Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:44:52 go away. . . seriously. . . just go. Go play WoW, stop posting this whiny stuff about alts. Every single MMO has had alts/mules, whatever. Just realize it will never happen, no company is going to stop people from having extra accounts. CCP hold up a sec, you can't possibly let people pay more money to you to play this game. That's just not right! Let's come up with a new an interesting way to invade player's privacy to lock down their ability to buy extra accounts, and experience all aspects of the game with multiple characters. CCP did a pretty good job of forcing people to make a hard choice about having second accounts, only one skill trainable per account. It's a nice balanced solution. If you want to pay more to experience more of the game, you can. Yes, this is an alt, but my main fully endorses this post.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Ilkin Kaptan Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:44:52 go away. seriously. CCP hold up a sec, you can't possibly let people pay more money to you to play this game. That's just not right! You didnt even read what i said, Im so gonna pod you.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:52:00 - [4] Not another alt post.. This has been posted about many times. People know the issues. Their stance on alts isn't going to change. Specifically, the poor people's second character alts are there on purpose. Also, there are no scams. Only people who aren't careful. Any -real- scam, one that exploits a bug, is reportable. Anything else is darwinism. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - ISD will never find me... In my signature!
Leonardo Sabrioski Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:56:00 - [5] I dunno man, money is pretty enticing if ccp ever decides to ban second accounts and second characters is the day that they decide to shut EVE's server's down. Considering that I would bet half of EVE's population of registered accounts is an alt account ----------------------------------------------
Ilkin Kaptan	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: Ilkin Kaptan Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:44:52 go away. seriously. CCP hold up a sec, you can't possibly let people pay more money to you to play this game. That's just not right! You didnt even read what i said, Im so gonna pod you. Bring it :) And no, I didn't read the post at first. that is why the edit. I saw 'oh noes, ban alt's' in the thread title and I decided to come in and throw poo at you. I incesant whining about stupid stuff, constantly. Plus I am in a really bad mood because I have so many characters logged in at once, I may have crashed a node.
Aldir Rundal Gallente The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:56:00 - [7] Here we go again. Recruiting
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.04.30 01:58:00 - [8] I never said ban alts, I just beleive there needs to be some kind of accountability between alts and accounts there to easy to hide behind, and I only make *****ing posts when i get real bored, which is like once every couple weeks so get over it. And my point is valid.
Ilkin Kaptan	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:06:00 - [9] Originally by: Kassidus And my point is valid. lol. The validity of your point is questionable at best.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Ilkin Kaptan Originally by: Kassidus And my point is valid. lol. The validity of your point is questionable at best. Says the man behind the curtain.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:26:00 - [11] I believe the purpose of the poor man's alt is to represent that his character has friends, even if the guy himself doesn't. The man in the eve universe gets two loyal cronies who'll do his bidding. Childhood buddies or something. Rich man alts are lame imo but hey, if you're dedicated and willing to spend the money, go ahead. I'll pwn you with my one account. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - ISD will never find me... In my signature!
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Pooka on 30/04/2007 02:44:33 Edited by: Pooka on 30/04/2007 02:44:11 Like the caveman said... WHAT?? "Second accounts are probably one of the bigger issues, it allows people with more money to gain an unfair advantage over other players, they have the ability by using multiiple accounts to bypass many game rules and alot of the game mechanics" What "game rules" and speaking of "assloads" pull your head out. PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT WALK THE WALK AND TALK THE TALK
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:53:00 - [13] Sounds like someone is unhappy that whatever mission runner they are camping into a station has an alt they can go play on with a completely unrelated name and in a different corp so their day isn't a total loss. Honestly, what is so bad about wanting to be able to experience PVP with a character and not have to worry about training carebear skills on it while it could be training PVP skills just so it can afford ship losses and the like? And in the case of carriers, yes, my alt is training for them... Why? Because the alt will be able to fly one long before this character could solely because there is just too much other stuff that I want to be able to do with the main. You also might want to consider that you can't, with any vague hope of being even moderately efficient, train one character to do everything you might want to try. You start down a path from the first click of the mouse and once you finish the character generation, your path is set. Set up a character as an industrialist with good memory and intelligence attributes and your perception will likely be so abominable that the mere thought of training a full tree of gunnery, spaceship command, or navigation skills will make your eyes bleed. Set up a full-on PVP character and your Charisma will usually be almost non-existant, making leadership skills a true nightmare. If you think people that can afford to do otherwise are going to spend months if not years waiting for skills to train for the ability to do something that they may not even end up enjoying, then you are horribly misguided.
Craig Ankers Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.30 02:59:00 - [14] 2 is just manageable, dont hit 3 u will regret....... Theres so many other issues apart from alts that need attention on your topic...... Regards Craig Ankers Former COO - Si-Fi Si-Fi Website
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.30 04:19:00 - [15] while I do agree that having multiple accounts affects the game tomake it probably less fun for all involved overall what amI supposed todoI now have 3 active accounts and Idon;ntsee myself gettingrid of them anytime soon and just think over 50% of accounts areprobbaly secondaccounts without them ccp would be poor. I was always thougha one accountguy thats how I wanted it, I gopt stuck with second chacrter whenafriend had to suddenly leave game andIhad totake overhis character, he came back about 8 months later when I was used to 2 chacrters and of course I transferred it right backto him butmissed my extra accountso made another only for his GF tobar hhim from eve again meaning I tookback the charcter but then I had 3. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Celestal	Posted - 2007.04.30 04:29:00 - [16] You know its absolutely terrible that people with more money can drive ferraris and those with less can only drive fords , I mean lets change life totally and make earning more money mean that we can only buy crappier things , /////////////heck I know , I can sell the op a clue for 100 mill isks
Cute EvEGirl	Posted - 2007.04.30 04:43:00 - [17] As a carebearer I want to say your idea is pretty dumb. Alt account (second paid account)is good for business. If a member wants to sign up 5 accounts, that can only be a win win for us all. How can you limit people from paying? Ok, now I do have a problem with those characters and 14-day trail account have the ability to war'dec anyone from birth. The solution is to make price higher like 10 mils per da, vice 2 mils. Ok now I am off the subject... let me get back. OP recommendation is horrible for business--
Lowanaera Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.04.30 04:51:00 - [18] It would take something like 23 years to train every single skill in the game to V. Having more than one account is the only way to experience multiple facets of Eve in a reasonable time frame.
Ikki Phoenix Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:02:00 - [19] I think alts in war situations are necessary. It is the closest we can come to spies
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:21:00 - [20] Yeah, 150mil for a GTC for a 2nd account are really just something for the UBER rich people...no kidding.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:27:00 - [21] Legitimate idea is suggested, legitimate idea takes money away from CCP, CCP are money-*****s and won't do it, dumb-asses flame topic because that's what dumb-asses do. Try Darkfall when it comes out, I believe it's taking a SCS stance (Single Character per Server).
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:29:00 - [22] Hmz. I'd like to post something about this subject but its gonna be hard without looking like me boasting about my sccounts/skills. Okay, on an alt then. I've got 3 paid accounts and 2 decent computers set up next to each other - this allows me to play 2 accounts at a time resulting in alot of powerful combinations i can make (recon + BS gank, carrier + BS tanker etc.), however, Eve PVP is intensive, very intensive and more often than not have i made small mistakes that cost me a win or even killed me. It's by no means an easy job to do but it adds to the suspense of the game and it keeps me busy Sooo..i guess you could call this one extremity. It's not giving me any real advantage or things that any other two-player team could not do - and its often even worse because im just human and multitasking 2 eve accounts is very, very intensive. COAD: OMG bob post flame flame flame Kieron: DIE ban OMG bobdevs! log-in alt flame flame flame
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Kassidus You didnt even read what i said, Im so gonna pod you. rofl. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:41:00 - [24] Quote: Second accounts are probably one of the bigger issues, it allows people with more money to gain an unfair advantage over other players i stopped reading your post there. do you know all the unfair advantages people with more time than others gain ? maybe we should go the china-idea and restrict the max. playing time to 3 hours a day ?
Bill Andrex The Dark Horses	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:42:00 - [25] So when you quit EvE because of all the Alts... Can I have your stuff?
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Nero Scuro Legitimate idea is suggested, legitimate idea takes money away from CCP, CCP are money-*****s and won't do it, dumb-asses flame topic because that's what dumb-asses do. Try Darkfall when it comes out, I believe it's taking a SCS stance (Single Character per Server). Heh, so you're one of those "Anyone NOT agreeing with the OP is a 5 year old smacktalking idiot who doesnt have a clue! Only the OP is right!" kind of guy?
D'ranged	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Kassidus You didnt even read what i said, Im so gonna pod you. and folks use alts to post because.......
Kion Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:45:00 - [28] TomB not long after Eve started stated CCP biggist mistake was in allowing alts, it distorts gameplay. They did not change it then and they are not gonna do in now! So don't bother crying about it Kion
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:46:00 - [29] i have 2 accounts, my original character and this one. they're both different, and if i fancy flying a different type of ship or something i'll log one or the other in. how am i cheating? I'd just consider it 'having fun playing a computer game' which is all good in my book.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:47:00 - [30] @OP Everyone can afford second account. If you can't make 150M per month to spend on second account, then you are doing something wrong. Same 2nd name could work with alts, but not with second accounts. How would you track it? It is impossible, many ppl have more than one credit card, or many ppl can share same IP address. There is no way to say which accounts should be linked together. In conlusion, this is not a problem and even if it was, there is no solution for it.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.30 09:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/04/2007 08:41:52 Originally by: Nero Scuro Try Darkfall when it comes out, I believe it's taking a SCS stance (Single Character per Server). I don't really think that they will stop multiple accounts. In Neocron, a lot of people, who started on the 1-char server, ended with 2 or more accounts. 'Vets' want to stay on the server, because they know friends and enemies for 1 or 2 years already, but want to play something new without deleting their old capped main character that had a known name/reputation, so they get another account. My clan had like 35 players with around 100 accounts at peak time and it wasn't much different in some other pvp clans. One char wasn't enough, because the chars were all fun, but different to play. My main chars were: 1) My monk girl, an aggressive vulnerable caster. Was a cute girl open for strange conversations, but also a 'biatch'. When she ticked out, she moved like a wirlwind, avoided to get hit and unloaded her psi-power dealing insane damage. 2) My male tank, fat armor, plasma cannon or meelee. He had big muscles and a low intelligence attribute and that's how I played him, especially with my Cursed Soul (a plasma cannon). Talking wasn't his strength, problems got solved with plasma. Depending on my mood I played one of them, when my clan was out for pvp. Darkfall won't have multiple accounts because there will be little to no incentive to use them, not because they'll physically stop you from using more than one. It won't have a dumb 'class' system and they're aiming for a no grinding approach, you just won't be giving yourself any real advancement by using more than one account (with any luck, of course the game hasn't been released yet so I'm only going on fickle dev-speak and hype). Not to mention they'll be avoiding even more retarded systems that aim to put some huge artificial barrier in front of advancing (cough). Oh, and skills degrade over time if you don't use them. Win.
Kesh McCall Caldari Malkalen Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.30 09:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Kassidus Another issue is with scamming, It seems every person in EVE has a Scaming alt now, if there were no alts there would be virtually now scamming in eve, Dear OP, i have several accounts, infact i play several "Main" Chars at the same time. However i never ever scammed nor did i tried to scam anyone nor did i have / had a alt that scam's, trys to scam. This should allready proof your above statement wrong. But to go a step further, if you would Ban / Nerf alts scamming wouldnt just simply stop. There are still trial accounts for that. And if this isnt working... then Scaming will be a profession that will be simply accepted like piracy. Besides of that, there is nothing like a scam in EvE .. just people that dont pay enough attention to what they are doing. People tried to bait me into not paying to much attention before and guess what .. i havent lost money or items so far.
Wolfmoon	Posted - 2007.04.30 09:57:00 - [33] Mining....3 accounts, 2 covetors and 1 hauler. Take that away and I'm done, so 3 or 0 CCP will chose. I bet they take the 3 account option and tell the op to bag it.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Wolfmoon Mining....3 accounts, 2 covetors and 1 hauler. Take that away and I'm done, so 3 or 0 CCP will chose. I bet they take the 3 account option and tell the op to bag it. Yup, CCP will have to make a choice between their principles and what will make a better game in the long run or selling out for cash. Oh not wait, they already made that choice, they chose to sell out. Have fun playing WoW-in-space, moron.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:30:00 - [35] Can i just paraphrase homer simpson here: "Wah wah wah, alts ruin gameplay, vitoc kills braincells. Now let's go back to that... computer thingy.. where our ships and stuff...is."
lapluie	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:03:00 - [36] I think one of the great things about EVE is the fact that you pay for one account but then get the option to run three characters, this being one of the two I am running at the moment. Only been in the game for a few months and I have the two heading in different directions, one to be a fighter/support character the other miner / refiner . I also manage my brothers accounts during the day he also has two characters running again one for fighting and one for mining. We have a four man corp. Ok not going to take over the world with it but it mean I can mine in one of his and haul the ore with one of mine and refine it with the other. ( once we have enough skills we will be knocking on a few bigger corps doors ) but for now this set up is made possible by the fact that we can run two characters ( if not three ) at once. Im lucky to have two PCÆs and the access to anther eve account., and in doing so I think this has enriched my playing experience and fun. Eve is such a big game and it looks like we are going to be here a while having this set up has helped us tenfold.
wictro	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:22:00 - [37] lapluie: as im pretty sure, when you have both 2 accounts, that ccp won't care so much, but.. sharing an account is bannable, and im cool with your ways, but not everyone is. so i suggest not advertising it on forums. ontopic: i have 2 accos, formally i was going to use one, and one only acco... :D im concidering getting third now, nah, not yet. my friend just got his 4th account, maybe eve is addictive dodgy
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:23:00 - [38] Real paid accounts ain't so bad, but when you see like army of 20 frigates of trial accounts or macrominers whatsoever... It's kind of hilarious but makes you think if there was another way. Like making alts not so useful in certain things or making it easier to play without alt and so. I can imagine many situtations in which you now need alt but with a little effort it could be made so that you can survive with only your "main". I'm not against having alts if you wanna pay for extra account and so, but when it comes to that you need alt for this and that it's silly.
Pewpewdude	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:54:00 - [39] Please dont ban me, i havent consumed enough carebear tears yet.
lapluie	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:11:00 - [40] Originally by: wictro lapluie: as im pretty sure, when you have both 2 accounts, that ccp won't care so much, but.. sharing an account is bannable, and im cool with your ways, but not everyone is. so i suggest not advertising it on forums. Opps think i best read the small print
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:14:00 - [41] People do get so confused over what one person is supposed to be able to do and what character is supposed to be able to do. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Hexman Cryo Crypt inc. FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Kassidus Second accounts are probably one of the bigger issues, it allows people with more money to gain an unfair advantage over other players, I strongly protest people that can't pay for a second account - Since they probably don't have a job they can spend more times in forums whining about this and that, asking for things to be nerfed and ruin the gameplay for the rest of us who just want to have fun playing the game in whatever way we want. And YES THAT INCLUDES SELLING GTC'S AND RUNNING SEVERAL ACCOUNTS. Long live capitalism! Originally by: CCP Oveur If you don't like it there, there are about 5000 other solar systems which you can
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Aindrias on 30/04/2007 18:50:37 To me, above all else, alts ruin the need for "corpmate" wtf? With 3 characters who need anyone else? You can.. uh.. go play with yourself...how Er33t are you then? This is the most damning thing of all about alts edited for content See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Aindrias Edited by: Aindrias on 30/04/2007 18:50:37 To me, above all else, alts ruin the need for "corpmate" wtf? With 3 characters who need anyone else? You can.. uh.. go play with yourself...how Er33t are you then? This is the most damning thing of all about alts edited for content Conversely, having multiple accounts can also allow you to more fully take part in your corporation's activities. Say you have your main account trained for PVP and there is a corp mining op going... You gonna hop out there in a BS with T1 miners, or are you gonna log your alt in a covetor? Maybe your main is an industrialist that makes mods and such for the corp, but a corpmate comes under attack in the belts... Do you go to his aide in an iteron or do you log on your combat alt to kill them? Perhaps your main is sitting in empire with a full set of +5 implants in his head training battleship V and a corpmate needs someone to scout him into 0.0... Do you lemming-jump your main through gates in a frigate or do you log on your alt in a shuttle? In all of the above cases, a person with only the main would be faced with a situation where non-participation is likely the best choice.
Cosmar Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:59:00 - [45] I agree with the OP. A lot of the intended gameplay of EvE is rendered redundant by "alts". But it's not their anonimity that is the problem and it's not something that's going to be fixed by adding a last name or anything. Even if they were linked to your character you can still use them in 1000 ways all to avoid risks to your main. The damage is done and since they can't very well delete the character of people that have had them for so long there's nothing that can be done about it now.
Sojuro Ryosaki Gallente Ultra Renegades Group	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 30/04/2007 08:41:52 Originally by: Nero Scuro Try Darkfall when it comes out, I believe it's taking a SCS stance (Single Character per Server). I don't really think that they will stop multiple accounts. In Neocron, a lot of people, who started on the 1-char server, ended with 2 or more accounts. 'Vets' want to stay on the server, because they know friends and enemies for 1 or 2 years already, but want to play something new without deleting their old capped main character that had a known name/reputation, so they get another account. My clan had like 35 players with around 100 accounts at peak time and it wasn't much different in some other pvp clans. One char wasn't enough, because the chars were all fun, but different to play. My main chars were: 1) My monk girl, an aggressive vulnerable caster. Was a cute girl open for strange conversations, but also a 'biatch'. When she ticked out, she moved like a wirlwind, avoided to get hit and unloaded her psi-power dealing insane damage. 2) My male tank, fat armor, plasma cannon or meelee. He had big muscles and a low intelligence attribute and that's how I played him, especially with my Cursed Soul (a plasma cannon). Talking wasn't his strength, problems got solved with plasma. Depending on my mood I played one of them, when my clan was out for pvp. OMG, I can't believe that you mentioned that "game" here. It's gotta be the longest running paid beta I have ever seen. I know, I beta tested it for a year, played for 3 month then canceled. That game only has < 600 paid subscribers so there's no way you can compare it to any game, even Tetris. @op As for whether alts are a bad thing. You can't play 2 chars on the same account at the same time and if a person can afford more then 1 account, then so be it. IT's their money. Just cause you can't afford doesn't mean every1 else has to suffer. I have 4 chars on 2 accounts, this is cause I have 4 different ways I like to play and I'm not gonna change that cause you're gonna cry. If you don't like alts, go play Solitare. --
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.30 20:39:00 - [47] Originally by: Kassidus crazy stuff... Your brain has spoiled. Get a new one.
Grouchtor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:07:00 - [48] Alts? pfffffffffft I have two mains. ______________________________________________
happomaagi Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:13:00 - [49] Skills take a ***** load of friggin' time to train. I wanna pewpew first and foremost. This guy is trained for that. I wanna carebear too. What do i do? I get an alt. I wanna try BPO research, manufacturing, invention, what not. It takes months to train the skills, and** its away from the time to train all the cool pewpew stuff. One drawback of EVEs skill system is the desire for alts. I would much rather have one character that would personate me in the vast galaxy but i'd like to try out all the different things in EVE too...in a reasonable manner. I see myself as a patient man. But there are two things that get me anxious and frustrated: EVEs skill training times and EVE-O General Discussion forums. The bad thing is that i cant detox myself from either of them.
Gorek Loc Dawning Industries	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:23:00 - [50] I can only say, you are so wrong in your perception of alts! You want CCP to get rid of the free 15 days account creation, because a few people are scamming ? How can a Gallente character be related to a Amarr character ? You want people to be stuck on one race forever and ever, much like WoW ? I my character was named 'Iceman', I wouldn't want a Loc added to his name... some people do roleplay as well (at least occationally!) When you are on Teamspeak with a person from your own country, you don't need to speak english and will not make communication mistakes because of a language barrier, you can control your wingman perfectly. I can't see any good reasoning in denying alts, which might explain why I have 3 active accounts!
Gavriel Black Amarr The Imperial Assassins Slammer's Republic	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:25:00 - [51] Edited by: Gavriel Black on 30/04/2007 21:24:18 I have 2 accounts. Not because i'm rich, not because i'm poor, I earn an average living. The reason i have two accounts is because my first character i trained to be a miner, period. After almost a year of mining, i got bored and wanted to try PVP, which is why i created my second account. Yes, sure, i could have just turned my first char into a pvp'r but i still had indy skills i wanted him to train. Why do i have 2 accounts? because i can. Why is my character Amarr? Because i like pew pew layzorz. It all comes down to personal preferences. "eve is a brutal, harsh universe where nobody loves you" -One of the devs
Ishma Nelass	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:42:00 - [52] Hmm... maybe we should ban alts and make scamming and spying into proffessions, complete with skills. We could have skills that altered your apparent name and employment history to people who aren't listed on a particular 'buddy-list'. It would lend an entirely new aspect to the game.... I'm all for it, despite having a mercahnt alt I use for selling things and for spying. I'd gladly give her up to be able to train spying skills.
Noobcorp Alt	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:14:00 - [53] Alts horribly affect gameplay, the matter should certainly be looked into!
Draconyx	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:47:00 - [54] I don't think so. Alts are not destroying the game. Last I heard it was a much larger list. GANKING PIRATES PRIVATEERS BAND OF BROTHERS GOONSWARM LAG BLOBS TITANS SCAMMING CLOAKING MACRO MINING 10/10 complexes Hmmm I bet I missed some.... not sure what the flavor is this week. From an ALT OR A MAIN as I don't diferrenciate between them
Stakhanov Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.05.01 00:13:00 - [55] Originally by: Kion TomB not long after Eve started stated CCP biggist mistake was in allowing alts, it distorts gameplay. It's good that they admit to their mistakes... Getting rid of alts is wishful thinking. As a purist gamer with only one character , I'm sick of seeing alts all over the place interfering with any of my activities at some point , with no possible retaliation. CCP is still a company , and therefore corruptible by money. Though they did remarkable efforts at enforcing their principles at cost , I'm afraid they would never gather the courage to do something about alts. Multiple accounts are a consequence of the shared SP for plain alts , since it never was forbidden in the first place. Of course , it's harder to forbid something that brings more money in... Fortunately , the frame of Eve is strong enough to support even rampant cheating. Still , why should CCP even try to change things when so few players can make a stand against metagaming ? Are they to blame for milking the sheep flock ?
Zorinna	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:42:00 - [56] Step 1: Grow up Step 2: Get a job. Step 3: Get a second account to compensate for the time you now have to spend at work instead of in front of the computer Mommy paid for.. An Eve account is what $150.00 a YEAR??? That is roughly a single night out partying for anyone past adolescence... problem solved... Que adolescent whining
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.01 03:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Zorinna Step 1: Grow up Step 2: Get a job. Step 3: Get a second account to compensate for the time you now have to spend at work instead of in front of the computer Mommy paid for.. An Eve account is what $150.00 a YEAR??? That is roughly a single night out partying for anyone past adolescence... problem solved... Que adolescent whining Partying at 150 a night ? more like 80 celebrating ? 300+
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2007.05.01 21:29:00 - [58] second account is needed if you want to play out of empire. its the different between getting your ship blown up and going broke vs getting your alt account shuttle blown up. anyone who doesnt have a second account should get one
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.05.01 22:26:00 - [59] I've always considered it strange that people make a distinction between different groups of characters working together based on whether those characters are controlled by one person or multiple people, despite the fact that this distinction is completely artificial, and its application to the game is in fact metagaming, as the game has no concept of identity beyond individual characters. Metagaming is doing something which you are not supposed to be able to do, but which you are able to do because it is a game. You are supposed to be able to play one or more characters in the game. Characters are supposed to be able to work together in-game. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Jashan T'Okara	Posted - 2007.05.01 22:56:00 - [60] I did not read all of the OP, or any of the replies, I am just replying to say that one does not have to be 'rich' to have multiple accounts. When you put things into perspective, most people spend more per month on fast food, convineince store junk (soda candybars), movies, and bars, than what it cost to have a 2nd account for a month. Think about it, just cut out going to the bar one night a month and you have paid for 1 (or even 2) extra accounts. Just had to get that out. I am by no means rich, yet I have 3 accounts. I have no social life now that I am married and have kids, and the extra $30 a month is really no big deal, in fact, I stopped going to the drive-thru fast food for lunch and more than offset the cost of the 2 extra accounts (when you are married its all about compromises XD ). (I've read thru the OP now) As for the rest of the post, I figure that in other games there is no tie between main characters and alts, why should there be one in eve? The anonymity of having an alt adds quite a bit of variety to the game that would otherwise be lost. Some people get bored being the same person/personality in the game all the time and they like to play a 'different' game now and then, so they have an alt or 2 to mess around when they get bore. As for scamming, GO SCAMMERS. I figure it is a case of social darwinism, if you are dumb enough to get scammed, then you deserve to be stripped of your valuables. Hauling alts? Well it does give warring factions a safe means to transport materiel, but I really don't feel it is that big of a deal. All that being said, you know what the BEST part of having alts is? Well just see the sig below XD Onoez!! I posterd with an ALT!??!!???
Robinete Broadhead Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.02 02:25:00 - [61] Originally by: Nero Scuro Legitimate idea is suggested, legitimate idea takes money away from CCP, CCP are money-*****s and won't do it, dumb-asses flame topic because that's what dumb-asses do. Try Darkfall when it comes out, I believe it's taking a SCS stance (Single Character per Server). looks stupid, never cared for dragons and men in tightes. I have 3 acounts and run all 3 at once, no prpoblem so far. Yes, I am an ALT in a NOOB Corp.
JoDirt Minmatar House of Geezer	Posted - 2007.05.02 02:30:00 - [62] money = unfair advantage = as real as it gets
Sen'ile	Posted - 2007.05.02 03:45:00 - [63] of course the opis right. its unfair that he cant pay for 2 accounts since he made the girl fat 4 times just because he didnt want to use a rubber and now he is paying through his nose for that mistake for the next 20 or so years. to be honest maybe if you stop smoking or stop drinking once a month or just plan your shopping slightly better you will afford another account.
Devious Syn	Posted - 2007.05.02 04:00:00 - [64] WTS Clue..... This is how EvE makes most of its money, do you know how many people have 3,4,5,6 accounts? The game was designed so you can play multiple accounts at once. If ya think this part of the game will ever go away your playing the wrong game.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.02 04:35:00 - [65] Originally by: Kassidus Now this is just my opinion disagree if you like it wont hurt my feelings, But I think One of the Biggest and most important problems in EVE is alts. Theres 2 types of alts, The ones for rich people (second accounts) and the ones for poor people (Second Characters) Both Cause huge issues in EVE. Second accounts are probably one of the bigger issues, it allows people with more money to gain an unfair advantage over other players, they have the ability by using multiiple accounts to bypass many game rules and alot of the game mechanics Example soloing in a carrier is not possible if you only have 1 account, if you can afford a Cyno alt you now have bypassed the intended design of the game (in my opinion that sounds like an exploit). Another issue is with scamming, It seems every person in EVE has a Scaming alt now, if there were no alts there would be virtually now scamming in eve, you would scam someone and become instantly blackballed and eventually quit eve cause you wouldnt be able to do anything, but instead people just scam away and make more alts. Wars and pvp are drastically effected by alts you can use an alt to move goods, you can use a alt to sit at a gate and provide intel you can use a alt as bait you can use multiple accounts and always have a wingman able to follow your exact orders and fill exact roles without the problems associated with team comunication. Basically you name it and alts have effected all of eve drastically and for the worst. I dont know what can be done about multiple accounts, I doubt CCP would do anything about it cause they make assloads of money, But a Family feature could be added to EVE that could correct this and make eve alot more interesting. Make an account , pick a first and last name , finish character creation, if you want another character you pick a first name last name carries over from the original so all of your alts will be linked by ancestory. The only way to fix multiple accounts is to have ccp link multiple accounts if its to the same household in the same manner so once someone creats an eve account all other accounts and characters will always be under that same fictional last name. all names wwouldnt have to change, just under your character description it would show a family name. Anyways just an idea if a bit long winded :) i have a alt, so im ruining the game, i pay for 2 accounts i wish i just payed for one, but i be damned if my main will learn refining skills, building skills. i rather have one that pwns peeps like u and one to build stuff to pwn u with. i do what the hell i want with my money mate, if i want 10 alts i'll pay for 10 alts
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2007.05.02 06:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Crumplecorn I've always considered it strange that people make a distinction between different groups of characters working together based on whether those characters are controlled by one person or multiple people nobody plays the game to be a sacrificial scout for another player to travel through chokepoints. sorry but it just doesnt happen. this is a role reserved for alt accounts and is a big advantage. if anyone tried to take away my ability to use an alt account for scouting and metagaming I'd probably quit. I love blowing up a carebear and when they try to gatecamp me I can just use my alt to wait for a way out.
Caios Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.02 07:02:00 - [67] Alts are fine. Without alts there'd be a fraction of the number of industrial/research chars out there right now, and if you want to experiment with another playing style, well, you're ******. Always did think the multiple accounts thing was kind of wonky, though. Why not just let us spread training out over multiple chars? Oh well, hardly matters anyway.
FenShui	Posted - 2007.05.02 07:21:00 - [68] Edited by: FenShui on 02/05/2007 07:17:18 Look Ma, I'm in an Anti-alt post (or something like that) and IBTL
Kormorant Gallente Oneirocritica Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.02 07:55:00 - [69] There is nothing wrong with multiple accounts. What next? Do you want to penalise people who get further because they can spend more time in the game? Instead of complaining about not being able to afford a second account, get a job?
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots Of Honour	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:21:00 - [70] This is a pvp character. Its intelligence and memory are sub-par to say the least. I want to dabble in industry a bit. Am I going to train up for it on this character? Hell no, it would take ages and I still have a million and one combat skills to train. So what do I do? Get a second account with its main having high mem and int. And don't argue any money bs, Eve isn't expensive. I'm on a **** poor income and can easily afford 2 accounts. I'm ruining the game for you am I? Good. I await the contract with all your stuff.
sorilin Amarr Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:36:00 - [71] alts will always be in the game HOWEVER! i like the idea about the names.. or a new sort of agent wich can track down the main of the acount... to many alts flaming etc.. would be nice to see who is needed to be killed and who is not! there should be ways i fully agree! I am the borg!
sorilin Amarr Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:39:00 - [72] also many keep saying alts on difrent acounts.. this isent correct.... EACH CARACTER PR ACOUNT IS 1 MAIN. the alts are th eones you have on each acount wich are used to spam and stuff with... it is those i feel you should be able to track down to the main AND OR they shoul d have same family name I am the borg!
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:43:00 - [73] surnames are all well and good, until a character is sold. Assuming the name has to be changed to avoid confusing the people who need to know EXACTLY who's controlling a character in order to sleep soundly at night. how would you explain away the surname change - adoption? marriage? civil partnership?
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.02 08:52:00 - [74] Originally by: Sen'ile ... if you stop smoking or stop drinking once a month... BLASPHEMY !!! ------ ~~Proud member of the !s~~ I take no responsability for your paranoia ! This sig space is Read-only !
Khonsu	Posted - 2007.05.02 09:23:00 - [75] Alts keep EVE running. Just forget about the alts discussion, it's way too late to make any changes at this point. Won't happen. Live with it or quit.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.02 10:53:00 - [76] As long as there is empire griefing, ore thieves, and small cargo holds. There will be alts, and second accounts. And there is nothing you can do about it. CCP loves the money it generates, players that use them loves the idea they have them for whatever they use them for. Oh you forgot, the people with 4-5 accounts and has'nt paid a single dime for them in a long time. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Missy X	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:03:00 - [77] There are lots of really creative, fun uses for an alt which have nothing to do with gaining a tactical or monetary advantage, griefing, or any other such thing. I'd be sad if alts ever went away. If nothing else, I enjoy alts simply because they annoy forum whiners.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:09:00 - [78] Originally by: Kate Nexus Originally by: Crumplecorn I've always considered it strange that people make a distinction between different groups of characters working together based on whether those characters are controlled by one person or multiple people nobody plays the game to be a sacrificial scout for another player to travel through chokepoints. sorry but it just doesnt happen. this is a role reserved for alt accounts and is a big advantage. if anyone tried to take away my ability to use an alt account for scouting and metagaming I'd probably quit. I love blowing up a carebear and when they try to gatecamp me I can just use my alt to wait for a way out. The reason it does not happen is because it is not fun, and people play for fun. This is a limitation of the fact that Eve is a game, a limitation which is removed by alts, who are generally characters to do the unfun stuff. Thus alts make the game world more realistic in this respect. How can that be metagaming? And anyway, the fact that real people rarely scout doesn't change the fact that they can. Alts can't do anything real people can't do. They are simply an alternative to another real person helping you. It has no effect on the game, as the game cannot tell the difference. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:15:00 - [79] me and my alts does not endorse this thread. Help me help you .

ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:16:00 - [80] oops, posted with the wrong character :\|
Raaki The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.02 11:24:00 - [81] I Pity the Fool with only one account :D
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:07:00 - [82] Edited by: Kate Nexus on 02/05/2007 12:04:02 Originally by: Crumplecorn How can that be metagaming? because it is by definition. hey im all for it buddy. i love metagaming Originally by: Crumplecorn And anyway, the fact that real people rarely scout doesn't change the fact that they can. Incorrect. A person cannot scout for their own ship. They either fly their normal ship or they fly a scout ship, both is not possible.
Sister 9 Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:10:00 - [83] Originally by: Ilkin Kaptan Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:49:46 Edited by: Ilkin Kaptan on 30/04/2007 01:44:52 go away. . . seriously. . . just go. Go play WoW, stop posting this whiny stuff about alts. i think the original poster made a reasonable proposition, using this kind of generic claptrap is just plain boring to read, and undermines your own arguments.
Ogdru Jahad Amarr Hookers and Black Jack Flaming Hookers	Posted - 2007.05.02 12:13:00 - [84] Blah blah waffle waffle... Who gives a flying turd about alts? All games have them including WOW infact I know people who make a few extra dollars off of WOW by selling lvl 70 characters. I have two accounts. BIG deal I say. i can only use one at a time . hmm yes I see your point NOT!. - .
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2007.05.03 02:15:00 - [85] Originally by: Kion TomB not long after Eve started stated CCP biggist mistake was in allowing alts, it distorts gameplay. They did not change it then and they are not gonna do in now! So don't bother crying about it Kion Can you back that statement up?? Where and when did he say that? Post or ... PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT WALK THE WALK AND TALK THE TALK
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:31:00 - [86] Originally by: Selnix Originally by: Aindrias Edited by: Aindrias on 30/04/2007 18:50:37 To me, above all else, alts ruin the need for "corpmate" wtf? With 3 characters who need anyone else? You can.. uh.. go play with yourself...how Er33t are you then? This is the most damning thing of all about alts edited for content Conversely, having multiple accounts can also allow you to more fully take part in your corporation's activities. Say you have your main account trained for PVP and there is a corp mining op going... You gonna hop out there in a BS with T1 miners, or are you gonna log your alt in a covetor? Maybe your main is an industrialist that makes mods and such for the corp, but a corpmate comes under attack in the belts... Do you go to his aide in an iteron or do you log on your combat alt to kill them? Perhaps your main is sitting in empire with a full set of +5 implants in his head training battleship V and a corpmate needs someone to scout him into 0.0... Do you lemming-jump your main through gates in a frigate or do you log on your alt in a shuttle? In all of the above cases, a person with only the main would be faced with a situation where non-participation is likely the best choice. All your reasons to have an alts are so you can IMHO opinion.. avoid playing the game. Can you... recruit someone to do all these things instead of having alts.... woooooow.... The "this is a combat alt so if I want to mine my stats aren't up to par" arguement doesn't work either. Over stacking your character on Perc and WP is your fault. Find a corpie to build/mine for/with you at a discount. Alts to me ruin the Corp/Alliance system... who needs other people in this MMO when you can do all yourself? See what you can do with Paintbrush?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:28:00 - [87] i'm a newbie and i have lots of fun.
Angelina Starchild	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:37:00 - [88] Originally by: Kassidus Another issue is with scamming, It seems every person in EVE has a Scaming alt now, if there were no alts there would be virtually now scamming in eve, you would scam someone and become instantly blackballed and eventually quit eve cause you wouldnt be able to do anything, but instead people just scam away and make more alts. I've "scammed" and I've continued to play with the same character without any problems as when it comes to being blackballed. Sure, some people wont like you, but the majority doesn't seem to bother very much at all. But I agree with you that it would be interesting and maybe even more fun to play with a single-character, the world would be very different and more 'out of the box' type of business ideas would work as to fill in the 'lack' of alts that would occur.
CampyloBacter Gallente Chlamydia Online	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:11:00 - [89] One Account, one character FTW! Seems to me that those who feel such an urge to try and be so uber in this game by having three accounts, need to try making themselves a bit more uber in RL. Some people's obsession with this game can't be healthy. It's a GAME FFS!
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:23:00 - [90] If my mining and hauling ships were safe, I would not require an alt. It is necessity that has my alt gun ship trailing along behind me on the nights I play without my friends..
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:57:00 - [91] Edited by: Drunk Driver on 09/05/2007 15:53:57 Yes, it's true. Alts are the ruin of Eve. We throw trash from moving vehicles. I'm sorry.
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:08:00 - [92] Originally by: Thesas If my mining and hauling ships were safe, I would not require an alt. It is necessity that has my alt gun ship trailing along behind me on the nights I play without my friends.. It is not a necessity to have 2 alts with you. You could get corpmates/friends/allies to help you instead. Heaven forbide you can't be a One-Person-ISK-Making-Machine tm and have to depend on other people. Alts = NO RISK See what you can do with Paintbrush?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:30:00 - [93] Originally by: Aindrias Originally by: Thesas If my mining and hauling ships were safe, I would not require an alt. It is necessity that has my alt gun ship trailing along behind me on the nights I play without my friends.. It is not a necessity to have 2 alts with you. You could get corpmates/friends/allies to help you instead. Heaven forbide you can't be a One-Person-ISK-Making-Machine tm and have to depend on other people. Alts = NO RISK dont be jealous that he can have alts and you cant i swear some of you guys crying about alts want everyone who plays eve locked into a virtual reality chamber where they have no way of leaving and no way of using alts ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:40:00 - [94] I lol'ed, first at the O/P's toon, than at his point.
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:47:00 - [95] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Aindrias Originally by: Thesas If my mining and hauling ships were safe, I would not require an alt. It is necessity that has my alt gun ship trailing along behind me on the nights I play without my friends.. It is not a necessity to have 2 alts with you. You could get corpmates/friends/allies to help you instead. Heaven forbide you can't be a One-Person-ISK-Making-Machine tm and have to depend on other people. Alts = NO RISK dont be jealous that he can have alts and you cant i swear some of you guys crying about alts want everyone who plays eve locked into a virtual reality chamber where they have no way of leaving and no way of using alts I'm not going to get into a flame war... but that was just lame... Jealous? You don't know me except that I don't like alts. See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:32:00 - [96] Actually, ôno riskö is a pirate cruising through asteroid belts at 3am looking for a lone miner who has been toiling away for hours while his friends sleep. I prefer to introduce as much risk as possible to him. Ogres and rail guns have been effective so far.
Skybar Minmatar Zephyr Manufacturing Group SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 09:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Thesas Actually, ôno riskö is a pirate cruising through asteroid belts at 3am looking for a lone miner who has been toiling away for hours while his friends sleep. I prefer to introduce as much risk as possible to him. Ogres and rail guns have been effective so far. I don't understand how that can be no risk. Sure, you might be rather safe at that moment. But on the other hand, each time you jump through a stargate or undock from a station, you have no idea if a blob of anti-pirates or other pirates will be camping. However, that's what make it more exciting and I don't complain, just saying that there are risks in piracy :)
Vactet Immortalis Silens	Posted - 2007.05.10 10:54:00 - [98] Others have said about being able to enjoy multiple aspects of eve because of alt accounts...so just enforcing that. My main is a pvp/pve account with all its skills (Minus those to fly a badger mk2) devoted to pvp/pve. And is currently working on getting all caldari and gallente ships (T1 and T2, not including capitals) My first alt account is my industrialist with all skills devoted to that. Mining, Refining, Production, etc. Now guess what...my main has 14M SP, my alt has 11M SP. It would have taken me twice the time to enjoy two aspects of the game. And besides...whose business is it of yours to decide how i spend my money? Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Heliope	Posted - 2007.05.10 11:05:00 - [99] Besides, why should those who have more time then me to play get an unfair advantage? They can spend more time making money? Isn't this the same as people with less time who have more accounts to get the same amount of money?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.10 11:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Aindrias Originally by: SiJira dont be jealous that he can have alts and you cant i swear some of you guys crying about alts want everyone who plays eve locked into a virtual reality chamber where they have no way of leaving and no way of using alts I'm not going to get into a flame war... but that was just lame... Jealous? You don't know me except that I don't like alts. some people dont got corpmates and they trust no one ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some

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