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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
850
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:16:39 -
[1] - Quote
BREAKING NEWS - QUAFE CONVOY DESTROYED BY CALDARI FORCES ON CALDARI-GALLENTE BORDER
Lina Ambre wrote:KASSIGAINEN - Reports have reached the Scope News desk in the last half hour regarding the destruction of a flotilla of vessels owned by the Quafe Company, which were apparently traversing the Caldari-Gallente border on a routine supply run.
The Federation Navy and Senate have condemned the actions of Caldari Customs forces, who appear to have engaged the unarmed convoy for violating the border closure mandate that has remained in force since Wednesday.
Representatives from Ishukone and Wiyrkomi have condemned the assault by the State Armed Forces, which destroyed seven unarmed Obelisk class freighters belonging to the Quafe Company, in an engagement that left no survivors.
The Quafe Company has released a statement in the last few moments, "strongly condemning this barbaric and heinous attack" and confirming the flight manifest for all seven vessels. The release of this information revealed that the vessels were crewed by a total of 4,691 Quafe employees, who also maintain status as corporate citizens of the Caldari State, and were fully loaded with empty Quafe classic bottles for a return trip to the Federation.
The flight manifest also shows the route that the vessels were taking from a Quafe Company warehouse in Annaro, to the Quafe Company bottling plant in orbit of Lirsautton VII, which confirms initial reports that the vessels were leaving, rather than entering Caldari territory.
In a statement delivered by Halertan Blan, Quafe's Regional Logistics Director for Everyshore, the company elaborated that "the attack on our unarmed supply vessels was entirely unwarranted and lies in firm breach of both Caldari and interstellar law. The mandate issued by the Chief Executlve Panel prevents vessels registered in the Federation from crossing the border into the state, not vice versa. The attack was an illegal, senseless and unnecessary show of force by the Caldari authorities."
The Quafe Company has confirmed that it has lodged a formal complaint with the Directive Enforcement Department and intends to file criminal charges with the Caldari Business Tribunal against Caldari Customs, with a view to "recovering cost for destruction of assets, along with substantial and adequate compensation for the families of those lost."
The Caldari authorities have remained silent since news broke of the convoy's destruction.
As strength goes.
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Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2017.03.25 14:30:15 -
[2] - Quote
If Quafe turns out to be behind the Kyokoke outbreak, I will commit suicide at once, because I know I will never hear of anything more amusing in my life. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
584
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:31:14 -
[3] - Quote
...Seriously?
Unless there is some MASSIVE mitigating information, this is sheer stupidity on the part of whoever issued that order, and anyone who followed it.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
808
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:31:26 -
[4] - Quote
So, why are people in this universe just piling bad decisions on top of bad decisions? |
Tabor Murn
RADIO RAMPAGE Indecisive Certainty
182
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:35:05 -
[5] - Quote
You'd think the Caldari would be pleased that Gallente assets were leaving their space? |
Avio Yaken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2284
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:38:02 -
[6] - Quote
Yuwei Sung wrote:If Quafe turns out to be behind the Kyokoke outbreak, I will commit suicide at once, because I know I will never hear of anything more amusing in my life.
I'm a sucker for conspiracy theories every now and then. With Quafe being rather popular drink in the cluster it would be the perfect carrier for a horrific disease. Contaminate the shipment and kick back. The cans will hit shelves, people will start consuming and the infection spreads and we look at the other strange events and ignore the simple Quafe transports.
More reason to drink Stari!
(.___________________________________________.)/
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Tabor Murn
RADIO RAMPAGE Indecisive Certainty
184
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Posted - 2017.03.25 14:39:59 -
[7] - Quote
If we're going to blame a beverage, the obvious culprit is Phanta. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3114
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:44:37 -
[8] - Quote
That will show them how to ignore Caldari orders on Caldari border!
Glory to the State!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1979
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:45:44 -
[9] - Quote
I don't like Quafe but can't remember when was the last time i shoot their ships.
The State is slowly going mental or there simply more to this story.
Akrasjel Lanate
Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate
Executor of Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
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TomHorn
Dragonaurs
294
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:51:15 -
[10] - Quote
Specialty of the State and the Patriot bloc to shoot down unarmed freighters. Border is closed.
Halertan Blan , Quafe Regional Logistics Director for Everyshore , statement is ridiculous. Doubt the criminal charges they intend to file will even make it to the Caldari business Tribunal.
The blame lies with the Captain of the vessels , the Director's of Quafe corporation, who thought it was good idea to fly their freighters accross the Caldari , Gallente border at this current time.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3012
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 14:55:06 -
[11] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:That will show them how to ignore Caldari orders on Caldari border!
Glory to the State!
You mean the orders saying 'Federation vessels can't come in'?
Because these were Caldari citizens engaged in the still totally legal act of taking ships out of State space.
Sounds like it was the Caldari Navy who needs to learn how to follow orders. |
Reeves Todako
Caldari Corn Paste
105
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 15:04:38 -
[12] - Quote
This is utterly reprehensible. Monstrous. Devious.
Why in this great cosmos would -anyone- shoot poor, innocent haulers? Innocent Freighters in HiSec. Only a monster could be so low. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3194
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 15:23:20 -
[13] - Quote
Okay ... well, the Caldari can be a little hard-nosed, but this seems a touch over the top. If they were trying to make a point, it seems like they could have found a less completely destructive way to do it. It's not even like the border's closed to capsuleer traffic.
I wonder what's going on. |
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
897
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 15:58:21 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:Caldari Customs forces, who appear to have engaged the [..] seven unarmed Obelisk class freighters belonging to the Quafe Company, in an engagement that left no survivors. Wow... I guess all I can say is... Maybe they should put Quafe captains in command of Federation Navy ships. I mean, if they suicide gank an entire Caldari Customs patrol with just seven unarmed civilian freighters, imagine what they could do with a battleship.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
361
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:08:42 -
[15] - Quote
Oh man . . . can we just leave the Quafe out of this? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9414
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:14:16 -
[16] - Quote
Huh.
My initial reaction: dismay, frustration.
My second reaction: guarded curiosity.
Let's get past the 'destroyed unarmed freighters' part, because that's very easy to get stuck on.
In the first place, there is the tiniest bit of ambiguity in the initial statements on the border closure, with 'passage of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic across the Caldari-Gallente border' being the statement. That's traffic in either direction. It's then stated-- clarified, or reiterated in part? --that no Gallente non-capsuleer traffic may enter the State, but it's not clarified that the traffic may leave the State. Now, this is one of those hair-splitting semantic arguments that'd waste pages of Summit threads, so let's just agree that one could argue the ambiguity, even though most will read it as entry.
The only reason why a border closure would make sense is to prevent passage of FIO operatives or other smuggled materials, so that State intelligence services could more effectively dredge for the on-going FIO intelligence operation and its materials.
The other idea may simply be that, well, the State's gone batshit with panic and naval personnel are becoming jumpy to paranoid extremes.
Frankly, if it's the latter, then we've got some issues.
I hope it's not the latter, because the vaunted rationality of the State, the widely-spread notion of 'piercing the veil' to the hard truth beneath things, would be made mockery of.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3015
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:29:46 -
[17] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:In the first place, there is the tiniest bit of ambiguity in the initial statements on the border closure, with 'passage of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic across the Caldari-Gallente border' being the statement. That's traffic in either direction. It's then stated-- clarified, or reiterated in part? --that no Gallente non-capsuleer traffic may enter the State, but it's not clarified that the traffic may leave the State. Now, this is one of those hair-splitting semantic arguments that'd waste pages of Summit threads, so let's just agree that one could argue the ambiguity, even though most will read it as entry.
I'm actually more focused on the 'Gallente non-capsuleer traffic', given that these were State citizens. Does that mean any non-capsuleer traffic that just happens to be driving a rounded ship with green paint is going to be shot at, regardless of who's actually crossing the border? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9415
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:40:45 -
[18] - Quote
The sticking point, from a legal perspective, is that the vessel and cargo belong to a Federation-registered corporation. It may be that the closure is interpreted to be not just or personnel, but materiel.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3194
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:42:39 -
[19] - Quote
If it was a screw-up, my guess would be the cause was clear, unambiguous, and poorly-tailored orders, as in, "Close the border, and shoot any Federal traffic that tries to pass through!"
I could see a naval unit kind of going, "Well ... uh. This seems like a bad idea, but, orders are orders."
That would be assuming a screw-up, though. A few questions that pop to mind:
Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?
There was word, before, of civilian traffic being "stopped" at the border, as in, turned back, not blown up. Why wasn't that done, here?
The visuals here are too ... vivid, somehow. Too obviously awful. There's something wrong. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3015
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:47:39 -
[20] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:The sticking point, from a legal perspective, is that the vessel and cargo belong to a Federation-registered corporation. It may be that the closure is interpreted to be not just or personnel, but materiel.
Perhaps. There's also the question of where those particular vessels were registered. It's not impossible that the Quafe financial department decided to save some scratch by having the freighters that would be operating mostly in the State built and commissioned in the State, even ifGÇöfor branding reasonsGÇöthey insisted on Obelisks.... probably Quafe-SKINned. |
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
586
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:48:48 -
[21] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:If it was a screw-up, my guess would be the cause was clear, unambiguous, and poorly-tailored orders, as in, "Close the border, and shoot any Federal traffic that tries to pass through!"
I could see a naval unit kind of going, "Well ... uh. This seems like a bad idea, but, orders are orders."
That would be assuming a screw-up, though. A few questions that pop to mind:
Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?
There was word, before, of civilian traffic being "stopped" at the border, as in, turned back, not blown up. Why wasn't that done, here?
The visuals here are too ... vivid, somehow. Too obviously awful. There's something wrong. I'm inclined to agree, but the lack of any statement on behalf of the Navy is disturbing. Who issued what orders? This should all be a matter of record from bridge logs. No ambiguity.
What remains is that it happened. Still, I've certainly got many of the same questions.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3015
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:49:45 -
[22] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved?
Because, as Makoto's indicated, the clear takeaway from the publicly-announced orders was 'no Federation ships can come in', with a strong implication of 'so get out'.
Which is what the Quafe convoy was doing: getting out.
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Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
362
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:52:20 -
[23] - Quote
Well to look at this from another perspective, and I'm not saying this is my positions, but wouldn't a convoy of freighters full of empty bottles be an excellent vehicle to smuggle something through the border? There's an espionage war going on here after all. We're just seeing the waves that break the surface. |
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
362
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 16:54:13 -
[24] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:The only reason why a border closure would make sense is to prevent passage of FIO operatives or other smuggled materials, so that State intelligence services could more effectively dredge for the on-going FIO intelligence operation and its materials.
The measure against this to close the borders for even all kind of civilian traffic is still extreme - unless there is something to hide at all costs. I'm having a hard time to understand why the CEP issues such a far reaching mandate but doesn't care to explain the reason publicly.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9417
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 17:14:07 -
[25] - Quote
Brand managers. Can't live with them, can't live without them.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3196
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 17:28:44 -
[26] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Why was Quafe trying a routine supply run? It's not like the present situation's been anything like quiet. There were thousands of people on those freighters; did nobody go, "Uh, boss, you know there's a blockade, right?" Why would anybody care so much about Obelisks full of empty bottles that they'd challenge a naval blockade to get them moved? Because, as Makoto's indicated, the clear takeaway from the publicly-announced orders was 'no Federation ships can come in', with a strong implication of 'so get out'. Which is what the Quafe convoy was doing: getting out.
Well-- yes, only, (1) we're assuming they had the same kind-of ambiguous statement we did; (2) do you really think they were just attacked on the spot with no warning at all?
If you're approaching a border in an unarmed ship, and somebody with a gun says, "The border is closed; turn back now," do you really keep going? <--- If this isn't what happened, if State security forces really just opened fire without a word, I have even more questions.
Like, "Considering the ambiguous wording and the volume of State/Federal trade, why hadn't this happened five thousand times already?" |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
586
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 17:42:45 -
[27] - Quote
I REALLY would like to hear something about the bridge logs.
And about the orders that sent a bunch of massive, fully manned container ships to a blockade.
I'm as shocked as anyone about this, but the more I consider it rationally, the more I see the same unanswered questions
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
28
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Posted - 2017.03.25 17:47:32 -
[28] - Quote
If it is true that this flotilla was indeed departing Caldari space on a return trip, it could be troublesome. While the original report on the partial closure states a suspension of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic, we are not all here with a copy of the orders that actually govern this partial closure.
The right thing to do here would be to call for the release of a full copy of the orders creating the partial closure, and - where possible - communications logs from the time immediately surrounding the flotilla attack.
The appropriate party (or parties), as evidence should show, should be held responsible here.
Addendum: I appear to have been touching on the same questions as Saya above me... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7302
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:09:46 -
[29] - Quote
While this certainly looks troubling the Navy's silence is most likely caused by an investigation into the incident that they don't want to make a statement without having the results of.
I'm going to go ahead and assume credible intelligence pertaining to something in those freighters. Perhaps something that then turned out to not actually be in said freighters. If I was trying to stir up trouble between the Federation and the State, this would be exactly how I'd do it.
Doesn't mean someone wearing Caldari Grey hasn't been a complete idiot, though.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
767
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:23:41 -
[30] - Quote
They said they'll close borders.
Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.
Now everyone is shocked.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
850
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:32:52 -
[31] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:They said they'll close borders.
Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.
Now everyone is shocked. You should read the border closure notice more carefully. These were State citizens leaving the State, not Federation citizens entering the State which is what was prohibited. Quote:In addition to this, passage of all Gallente non-capsuleer traffic across the Caldari-Gallente border has been suspended by Caldari Customs, and the Chief Executive Panel has warned Caldari corporations currently engaged in business with Gallente registered organizations that no non-capsuleer traffic will be permitted to cross the border into the State, regardless of any pre-approved customs and immigration documentation. These State citizens were not crossing into the State but into the Federation, which was never prohibited.
At first it disgusted me how eager every Caldari pilot was to blame anything other than their own State but, with reflection I have realized that you are all shocked and looking for another explanation and not simply trying to spin a narrative.
Well, except for the clear provists but no one I think expects anything at all from them. I pray you Caldari do find another explanation or that there is one now. For the sake of the State and for the sake of those pilots who hoped such things died with Heth.
As strength goes.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3199
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:34:44 -
[32] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:They said they'll close borders.
Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.
Now everyone is shocked.
There's a little difference between closing the border and, "Welcome to the border. Please stand by for summary execution."
That last seems just a tiny bit strange. Usually there's at least a little bit of, like, gun-pointing and comms-yelling before anybody actually starts blowing people up. At least you'd hope so.
Well, at least I'd hope so.... |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office Electus Matari
767
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:36:27 -
[33] - Quote
Where did you get the idea that there were none?
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
590
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:46:02 -
[34] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Where did you get the idea that there were none? That's the information we're missing, at this time. One would hope that unarmed freighters would not try to run a blockade if said blockade pointed a few dozen launchers their way and called for a halt. And if there were some vast mitigating circumstance, why hasn't it been used as propaganda at the very least?
Personally, I'm hoping to hear more on this soon.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3203
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:48:53 -
[35] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Where did you get the idea that there were none?
I didn't, but that's sort of the tone that's being set. There are questions any way we look at it.
If the convoy was ordered to turn back, and didn't, why?
If they were just summarily destroyed at the border, why?
The whole thing's just bleeding weirdness. It's not so much shocking as ... bizarre.
My best current guess is that they were trying to smuggle something out in the most innocuous-looking of innocuous-looking convoys and called the border guards' bluff, hoping the State would rather see them get away than create such an obviously awful public incident.
"We're going through. If you want an incident where you're responsible for blowing up a bunch of unarmed transports full of soda bottles and everybody aboard, well, obviously we can't stop you! But that's your call." --Sadly Deceased Convoy Commander, miscalculating.
... that would seem to fit. But there's too little information. |
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
288
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 19:53:07 -
[36] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Where did you get the idea that there were none? I didn't, but that's sort of the tone that's being set. There are questions any way we look at it. If the convoy was ordered to turn back, and didn't, why? If they were just summarily destroyed at the border, why? The whole thing's just bleeding weirdness. It's not so much shocking as ... bizarre. My best current guess is that they were trying to smuggle something out in the most innocuous-looking of innocuous-looking convoys and called the border guards' bluff, hoping the State would rather see them get away than create such an obviously awful public incident. "We're going through. If you want an incident where you're responsible for blowing up a bunch of unarmed transports full of soda bottles and everybody aboard, well, obviously we can't stop you! But that's your call." --Sadly Deceased Convoy Commander, miscalculating. ... that would seem to fit. But there's too little information. Never. EVER... Try to bluff a serious checkpoint. They're there to keep you from passing, not ensure your safety while doing so.
If that was the case, I guarantee whichever freight lugger made that call was never a FedNav man. They're not that stupid.
My question now is; Was there any communication at all? |
Jade Blackwind
1296
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 20:11:36 -
[37] - Quote
I wonder what, or who, actually was in those freighters. |
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1573
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 20:29:59 -
[38] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Let's get past the 'destroyed unarmed freighters' part because that's very easy to get stuck on. Yes, killing 4,000 people on unarmed transports can be a bit distracting. We were discussing bias earlier....
Now I know what you meant and understand your comments were more nuanced, I just wanted to remind you of how easy it is making cheap points on serious comments.
I would also invite you to reread the 'excuses' given thus far by our State friends, they basically come down to, 'it's the Federations fault.'
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Aradina Varren
Alexylva Paradox
115
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 20:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Not sure which thread you're reading, so far I've seen "There's probably more to this", "The freighter pilots should have ignored warnings", "The customs officials massively overreacted" and "Quafe were trying to smuggle something out".
Overall, people are being reasonable. Waiting for more information before jumping to a conclusion.
Feels Pretty Soft to Me.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3920
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 20:40:59 -
[40] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:The sticking point, from a legal perspective, is that the vessel and cargo belong to a Federation-registered corporation. It may be that the closure is interpreted to be not just or personnel, but materiel. Quafe would also happen to be a Caldari registered corporation as far as I'm aware. Somewhat odd in that regard to be sure. But really..... That just makes shooting them even worse. |
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2037
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:06:16 -
[41] - Quote
I, for one, am surprised that Quafe products are so volatile as to explode with sufficient force, that there would be no survivors from a ship carrying a cargo of Quafe products.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
410
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:15:56 -
[42] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:I, for one, am surprised that Quafe products are so volatile as to explode with sufficient force, that there would be no survivors from a ship carrying a cargo of Quafe products.
This caught me, too. Even in cruiser-class vessels, a sufficiently destructive event still leaves a few crewmen who were lucky enough to reach secure panic-room bulkheads or otherwise. Someone means to tell me that trade vessels - first off, unsupported by even a meager escort fleet that wouldn't have had to even follow them out - have no security against attack? Do you mean to tell me that seven freighters died so quickly that no one survived? Killing a freighter takes time. Especially if one fleet is trying to down seven, all at the same time, without primary.
And if there was primary, the others would have had some time to get to relative safety, or escape pods.
So.
Just wondering 'bout the whole "let's make sure there aren't survivors" thing.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
289
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:26:17 -
[43] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:I, for one, am surprised that Quafe products are so volatile as to explode with sufficient force, that there would be no survivors from a ship carrying a cargo of Quafe products. This caught me, too. Even in cruiser-class vessels, a sufficiently destructive event still leaves a few crewmen who were lucky enough to reach secure panic-room bulkheads or otherwise. Someone means to tell me that trade vessels - first off, unsupported by even a meager escort fleet that wouldn't have had to even follow them out - have no security against attack? Do you mean to tell me that seven freighters died so quickly that no one survived? Killing a freighter takes time. Especially if one fleet is trying to down seven, all at the same time, without primary. And if there was primary, the others would have had some time to get to relative safety, or escape pods. So. Just wondering 'bout the whole "let's make sure there aren't survivors" thing. Know what looks a lot like Quafe? Binary liquids. An out there theory, but it would fit what you're thinking here.
It does take a lot to just outright gut an Obelisk, doesn't it? And how didn't anyone get into an escape pod in that time? |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
850
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 21:55:20 -
[44] - Quote
Torpedo ships, high power blaster platforms, and supercarriers are all capable of destroying a freighter in seconds. It does not necessarily mean that the State fired upon escape pods that no one escaped, they could simply have not had enough warning.
As strength goes.
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Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
413
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 22:32:55 -
[45] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Torpedo ships, high power blaster platforms, and supercarriers are all capable of destroying a freighter in seconds. It does not necessarily mean that the State fired upon escape pods that no one escaped, they could simply have not had enough warning.
Doesn't a fleet like that take time to prepare, to assemble, and organize? This would have most likely meant they would have been warned, if not threatened, ahead of time. Things still aren't adding up.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Jade Blackwind
1296
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 22:33:08 -
[46] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:I, for one, am surprised that Quafe products are so volatile as to explode with sufficient force, that there would be no survivors from a ship carrying a cargo of Quafe products. This caught me, too. Even in cruiser-class vessels, a sufficiently destructive event still leaves a few crewmen who were lucky enough to reach secure panic-room bulkheads or otherwise. Someone means to tell me that trade vessels - first off, unsupported by even a meager escort fleet that wouldn't have had to even follow them out - have no security against attack? Do you mean to tell me that seven freighters died so quickly that no one survived? Killing a freighter takes time. Especially if one fleet is trying to down seven, all at the same time, without primary. And if there was primary, the others would have had some time to get to relative safety, or escape pods. So. Just wondering 'bout the whole "let's make sure there aren't survivors" thing.
When I was 14, I survived the destruction of a deadspace facility. A case of your generic "civilian in a can". So, just thinking based on my own experience.
When a large enough structure, be it an Obelisk, or a Wreathe, or an Angel brothel, explodes, there will be a few survivors in the pods or in the wreck. For a while.
If there are none, then a doomsday class weapon was used, or there was no rescue operation at all, or it was withheld for 2+ hours until the survivors were out of oxygen.
So. Either those freighters were full of explosives, or our Caldari friends deliberately ensured that there are no one left to tell the tale.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3920
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 22:51:07 -
[47] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote: Doesn't a fleet like that take time to prepare, to assemble, and organize? This would have most likely meant they would have been warned, if not threatened, ahead of time. Things still aren't adding up.
Capsuleers routinely destroy freighters in seconds all day every day around the trade hubs and routes. Why are you surprised that a force capable of destroying freighters rapidly is deployed on a border between two empires currently at high tensions.....
Also surviving in a 'can' in a facility is quite different to surviving in a wreck where the warp core is breached and goes critical. If you aren't in a suit, and don't make a pod... well.... bad things. Compared to the warheads or ammunition that get thrown at things, conventional planetary explosives also aren't significantly damaging.
So yeah, not buying into this whole 'they were carrying bombs' thing here. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
853
|
Posted - 2017.03.25 23:34:53 -
[48] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Doesn't a fleet like that take time to prepare, to assemble, and organize? This would have most likely meant they would have been warned, if not threatened, ahead of time. Things still aren't adding up. I assume they were already pre-staged at the border.
I should mention also that a supercarrier can comfortably alpha strike a freighter. A few seconds worth of warning is not a lot of time especially for the crew of a soft drinks company. These are not combat ships and not capsuleer crews, the fact there were no survivors does not automatically have to mean that there is anything more to this than overwhelming force used.
As strength goes.
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Teinyhr
Ourumur
810
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 00:00:59 -
[49] - Quote
Supercarriers aren't standard border security at least where I come from. There were 7 freighters, so certainly some of them would have caught a whiff of what happened to the others and managed to alert and save at least a few of their people. The "no survivors at all" simply smells too damn fishy to completely ignore. Something about this is just not right, but as usual, we just have to wait and see what it was. |
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2338
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 00:37:50 -
[50] - Quote
Well, if nothing else, the market for capsuleer trading between the Federation and the State is solidly in our favor. I wonder just how much Quafe will pay us to make those runs now that nobody else can...
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
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Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
414
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 01:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Well, if nothing else, the market for capsuleer trading between the Federation and the State is solidly in our favor. I wonder just how much Quafe will pay us to make those runs now that nobody else can...
EDIT -- I was censored, woe is me. I'll call you what it wouldn't let me, but sterilized:
Butthead.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2038
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 10:04:12 -
[52] - Quote
My point is based on principles of naval architecture, and should stand regardless of the firepower used. Compartmentalisation and bulkhead design should mean there would always be some survivors in some compartments of the ship, even in the event of a catastrophic internal explosion.
The exception, is extreme volatile cargoes, which could crush internal bulkheads in a catastrophic internal explosion of sufficient force.
I have prepared a simple diagram for this lecture.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3116
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 12:53:45 -
[53] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Diana Kim wrote:That will show them how to ignore Caldari orders on Caldari border!
Glory to the State! You mean the orders saying 'Federation vessels can't come in'? Because these were Caldari citizens engaged in the still totally legal act of taking ships out of State space.
Whaaat? "Caldari citizens"? Because Quaffe said so? Listen to them more, and you'll go massacre babies in the name of Freedom.
But you know what, Quaffe got popped. Glory to the State!
Arrendis wrote: Sounds like it was the Caldari Navy who needs to learn how to follow orders.
Will give lessons about gatecamping for 300m isk/hour. Not to the Navy of course, to you. They know what they are doing.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3116
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 13:09:08 -
[54] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:They said they'll close borders.
Then they actually closed borders and enforced it.
Now everyone is shocked.
Not everyone. Just pro-gallentean oriented pilots. Just as Quafe does a drama from it, so do Makotos, Sayas and other inconvenient for the State personalities.
For Caldari, it was just a work on Saturday. Though, admit it, the kills were pretty good! I wish I could catch something like that myself!
So, good job! And Glory to the State!
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Salome Arran
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 13:12:36 -
[55] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:My point is based on principles of naval architecture, and should stand regardless of the firepower used. Compartmentalisation and bulkhead design should mean there would always be some survivors in some compartments of the ship, even in the event of a catastrophic internal explosion. The exception, is extreme volatile cargoes, which could crush internal bulkheads in a catastrophic internal explosion of sufficient force. I have prepared a simple diagram for this lecture. I can think of a few scenarios where there wouldn't be survivors...
But all of them have to do with actual efforts to deliberately make a ship internally unsound, and a literally absolute dedication to zero preparation on the part of every single member of the crew.
The cruiser I served on took a magazine hit once. That was a lot of Boom on a MUCH smaller, less heavily reinforced ship. But most of the crew survived, and the ship was still spaceworthy thanks to blowout channels, panels, and internal compartmentalization.
So what the HELL were those ships hauling?
Or are State missile payloads just THAT deadly? |
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1821
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 14:04:45 -
[56] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Though, admit it, the kills were pretty good! I wish I could catch something like that myself!
So, good job! And Glory to the State!
You can't land tackle on a freighter? I'll admit several at once is an accomplishment for a single tackle pilot, but i highly doubt it was one tackle pilot. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
380
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 14:26:08 -
[57] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:My point is based on principles of naval architecture, and should stand regardless of the firepower used. Compartmentalisation and bulkhead design should mean there would always be some survivors in some compartments of the ship, even in the event of a catastrophic internal explosion. The exception, is extreme volatile cargoes, which could crush internal bulkheads in a catastrophic internal explosion of sufficient force. I have prepared a simple diagram for this lecture.
The alternative, of course, is that there were survivors, and that they were detained and relocated to holding facilities without any notification to Quafe Company. For interrogation.
I have posted a denouncement of this action on the official Kyonoke Inquest communications channels. I expect all loyal members of Wiyrkomi and Ishukone corporation to immediately denounce this inhuman and savage act of interstellar piracy.
Regards,
Soter
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
732
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 15:00:17 -
[58] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:I expect all loyal members of Wiyrkomi and Ishukone corporation to immediately denounce this inhuman and savage act of interstellar piracy. Or.. what, exactly?
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2039
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 15:13:36 -
[59] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Julianus Soter wrote:I expect all loyal members of Wiyrkomi and Ishukone corporation to immediately denounce this inhuman and savage act of interstellar piracy. Or.. what, exactly?
Or a Strong Letter of Condemnation will be sent to you.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
380
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 15:18:09 -
[60] - Quote
History will judge those that stand beside those that killed the people in those freighters. I need not lift a finger.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1629
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 15:23:37 -
[61] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:History will judge those that stand beside those that killed the people in those freighters. I need not lift a finger.
History is subjective and entirely at the whims of the authors. You'll need to be the ultimate victor for history to be unified on what your vision for the cluster is.
As an aside, the loss of life is regretable. I hope the Federation and the State are able to resolve these issues to each side's satisfaction so we can focus on the real threat.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9418
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 15:55:25 -
[62] - Quote
Soter, I ask.
Are you travelling to the Inquest with the aim of resolving this crisis, or continuing your militia skirmishes?
Because we aim to resolve the crisis, and will work with any who seek to do so productively.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2040
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:25:52 -
[63] - Quote
Salome Arran wrote:I can think of a few scenarios where there wouldn't be survivors...
Yes, most of those scenarios that you outline, would relate to the points 1 and 2 that I made.
1. That the ship design is at fault, and does not have appropriate compartmentalisation, and such things as the blowout panels that you mention. 2. That the crew were so lax in their duties, as to leave the bulkhead doors between compartments all open.
Now, like you say, there is the possibility of deliberate action - welding blowout panels solidly to the ship and so on. Deliberate sabotage to compromise the ship structure.
Something smells funny here.
And it isn't the Quafe.
Though, Quafe does smell funny.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
380
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:40:55 -
[64] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Soter, I ask.
Are you travelling to the Inquest with the aim of resolving this crisis, or continuing your militia skirmishes?
Because we aim to resolve the crisis, and will work with any who seek to do so productively.
And yes, this includes you, provided you're willing to set aside your war for at least two weeks.
I am willing to work with any who are on the side of justice, peace, and the basic human rights of self-determination. But we must remain vigilance against those that seem to be using this plague as a weapon to strike at the heart of New Eden's fragile peace. We may yet see the unleashing of a large-scale war and untold human suffering. This Kyonoke Plague has split the Caldari State. Soon, it may split the Cluster.
I am extremely frustrated with those "Caldari Loyalists" that seem to do nothing but praise their corporate leadership when things are going bad. I would like to see a few of them step up and demonstrate real courage by speaking out at this dangerous time.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
594
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:48:27 -
[65] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Soter, I ask.
Are you travelling to the Inquest with the aim of resolving this crisis, or continuing your militia skirmishes?
Because we aim to resolve the crisis, and will work with any who seek to do so productively.
And yes, this includes you, provided you're willing to set aside your war for at least two weeks. I am willing to work with any who are on the side of justice, peace, and the basic human rights of self-determination. But we must remain vigilance against those that seem to be using this plague as a weapon to strike at the heart of New Eden's fragile peace. We may yet see the unleashing of a large-scale war and untold human suffering. This Kyonoke Plague has split the Caldari State. Soon, it may split the Cluster. I am extremely frustrated with those "Caldari Loyalists" that seem to do nothing but praise their corporate leadership when things are going bad. I would like to see a few of them step up and demonstrate real courage by speaking out at this dangerous time. Who are you even talking about?
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9420
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:52:56 -
[66] - Quote
There are nationalists of every color, Soter. Whether Kim or Syagrius, we'd do best to ignore them so that the real work may proceed.
Insofar as denouncing or making bold statements, believe me when I say those of us most concerned about the Kyonoke crisis aren't going to lavish praise on the various Megacorporations who've stuck their head in the sand.
Now, you explicitly say 'who are on the side of justice, peace, and the basic human rights of self-determination.' All laudable things, but you and I both know these are intended as Federal dog-whistles.
I'll be forthright.
Soter, are you willing to work alongside Caldari, Amarr, and Matari just as you would Gallente? Are you willing to set aside the usual political bickering in search of productive, collaborative, multilateral work?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
380
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:53:38 -
[67] - Quote
*looks into his holocamera and sighs* Diana Kim? Perhaps the other people posting in the top ten articles here on the IGS? The past half decade of Caldari yes-man supporters?
Nevermind.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9420
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:54:55 -
[68] - Quote
You should know perfectly well that we're all tired of Kim, and that Kim is not a sound basis for policy.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
594
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 16:55:26 -
[69] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:*looks into his holocamera and sighs* Diana Kim? Perhaps the other people posting in the top ten articles here on the IGS? The past half decade of Caldari yes-man supporters?
Nevermind. So, Diana Kim.
When you figure out what else we've been telling you in that regard, for years, you may yet see where the issue lies.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
384
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 17:05:47 -
[70] - Quote
I criticize the Federal administration when warranted. Actually, I'm quite infamous for it. I don't really have the time to dig through the seven years or so of mindless IGS banter that has been hurled at me and my organizations from Caldari nationalists. It has happened, it is ridiculous, and it has generated some long-lasting frustration.
Regardless, all are of course welcome to attend the Villore Accords official embassy at the H4-RP4 event. We will not turn any away, and we are willing to listen to any rational or well reasoned arguments as we proceed in our continuing investigation of this crisis.
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9428
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 17:08:08 -
[71] - Quote
Exceedingly guarded talk, Soter.
A hand was extended. You did not take it.
Instead, you wish us to seek audience, in the hope you will deign to bless our efforts.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9428
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 17:18:48 -
[72] - Quote
An addition, as it merits saying:
I will be forthright in saying to those observing that, yes, I have been blunt in denouncing Soter in the past. Indeed, I've done so with rather more vitriol than was necessary. The issue, I fear, is that just as Soter is irritated with Caldari speaking out against him, I have been irritated by Soter doing exactly what he does here, expecting obeisance and veneration when he is guilty of continual self-importance, and is continually insulting Caldari even when we attempt to offer olive branches.
Those watching know that I am no Kim. In the Liberal tradition, I am willing to work with anyone willing to forge a constructive relationship.
I invite you all to work with those of us who seek a collaborative solution to this crisis.
Many of us will be at H4-RP4. Many of us may be needed in space elsewhere.
Please, join the effort.
Winds be kind, the Cluster may very well depend on independent Capsuleers to get the job done, and it will take all we can do to resolve this successfully, against the headwinds of nationalism and psychosis.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Matar Ronin
4121
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 17:26:27 -
[73] - Quote
Seems like Quafe corp operating in the Caldari State has new tech that even capsuleers do not have.
I do not know of any modules that are available to freighter pilots that would allow them to break tackle and make a run for the jump gate before being tackled again. The lumbering giants are not exactly nimble and quick.
So for ships that might have been smuggling things or people OUT of Caldari space why the need to blow them up when you could easily capture, board, and have proof to flaunt to the entire cluster?
The Caldari Navy and Caldari State are riddled with paranoid trigger happy maniacs who think every Gallente themed item is a directed attack against them. Honestly I am just surprised this does not happen more frequently. These guys are the gang who can't shoot straight, so why not rack up a few kills against freighters with your own citizens flying in it? They have no regard for life so sacrificing thousands to make a point is no big deal.
I guess their slimy alliance with the slavery cult is having some profound institutional impact on them after all. This is a stain on a Navy that has long been respected for it's effectiveness, now it's acting more like criminal pirates, truly a sad day for all who like me still have respect for the tenacious spirit of the Caldari people.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1578
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 18:44:52 -
[74] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:An addition, as it merits saying:
I will be forthright in saying to those observing that, yes, I have been blunt in denouncing Soter in the past. Indeed, I've done so with rather more vitriol than was necessary. The issue, I fear, is that just as Soter is irritated with Caldari speaking out against him, I have been irritated by Soter doing exactly what he does here, expecting obeisance and veneration when he is guilty of continual self-importance and is continually insulting Caldari even when we attempt to offer olive branches. Olive branch? You offered him an insult in the form of an ultimatum, not an olive branch.
Makoto Priano wrote:Those watching know that I am no Kim. In the Liberal tradition, I am willing to work with anyone willing to forge a constructive relationship. No youGÇÖre not Ms. Kim, she is an honest advocacy, while you use duplicity and the illusion of cooperation to subvert. You claim you are willing to work with anyoneGǪ as long as they follow 'your' guidelines without question. That is very Caldari of you. "We want peace... as long as we get everything we want." I was neutral about your effort at first, but have come to understand that it is simply the latest effort by those loyal to the State use peace as a weapon.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Olga Drottning
Antumbra
20
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 18:54:47 -
[75] - Quote
I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted attack. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3209
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 18:55:28 -
[76] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Olive branch? You offered him an insult in the form of an ultimatum, not an olive branch.
....
No youGÇÖre not Ms. Kim, she is an honest advocacy, while you use duplicity and the illusion of cooperation to subvert. You claim you are willing to work with anyoneGǪ as long as they follow 'your' guidelines without question. That is very Caldari of you. "We want peace... as long as we get everything we want." I was neutral about your effort at first, but have come to understand that it is simply the latest effort by those loyal to the State use peace as a weapon.
These messages brought to you by yet another wholly impartial person with no overly-large, barbed, double-headed axes to grind at all. |
Matar Ronin
4126
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:02:10 -
[77] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Olive branch? You offered him an insult in the form of an ultimatum, not an olive branch.
....
No youGÇÖre not Ms. Kim, she is an honest advocacy, while you use duplicity and the illusion of cooperation to subvert. You claim you are willing to work with anyoneGǪ as long as they follow 'your' guidelines without question. That is very Caldari of you. "We want peace... as long as we get everything we want." I was neutral about your effort at first, but have come to understand that it is simply the latest effort by those loyal to the State use peace as a weapon. These messages brought to you by yet another wholly impartial person with no overly-large, barbed, double-headed axes to grind at all. Pilot Jenneth apologists in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You are the living embodiment of the old saying "People who don't stand for something, will fall for anything!"
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9432
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:05:30 -
[78] - Quote
Let me clarify. By 'setting aside your war,' in Soter's case I mean his constant propagandizing, his haranguing of the State without consideration of the bigger picture. Nationalist politicking over thousands when millions are dead or dying and billions of lives may be at stake might perhaps be myopic.
I don't expect the mercenaries in Black Rise or Placid to stop blowing one another up. It's gone on for years. Why's a little thing like a plague going to stop them?
Still, the olive branch is the beginning of negotiations. It is the initial handshake that is followed by discussion, trading of favors and points, and ultimately collaborative effort.
Should I have started with bowing and scraping, Syagrius, while you and other nationalists insult us at every turn?
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9432
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:06:46 -
[79] - Quote
Olga Drottning wrote:I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted assault on innocent vessels.
Ms. Drottning, you may have noticed pages of, "What the hell happened?!" from State loyalists and other parties in the opening pages of this discussion.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Olga Drottning
Antumbra
21
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:14:32 -
[80] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted assault on innocent vessels. Ms. Drottning, you may have noticed pages of, "What the hell happened?!" from State loyalists and other parties in the opening pages of this discussion.
Ms. Priano, you may also have noticed the lack of any sort of apology, and largely any kind of acknowledgement of the human cost of this tragedy in those same pages.
This inordinate use of force can NOT be ignored. Although we should've expected the Caldari to escalate to full on ship to ship violence as they and their capsuleer supporters have proven wont to do in recent months. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7306
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:19:55 -
[81] - Quote
I seem to remember killing the last bunch of thugs who fired on unarmed freighters full of Caldari citizens. Those were from the security services of my own home corporation, to boot. If it turns out that freighters full of citizens are being attacked by State leadership for reasons of political point scoring or just out of plain despotism, then guess which side I'll be on?
The side of the Citizens of the State - just like last time.
That said, there are MANY reasons this might have been done. There has been no statement from the Navy or the CEP. That is not unexpected at this juncture - making a statement before the facts are in would lead to a statement that would either be false or unsatisfactory in its brevity. It does suggest that the action was reactive and not planned, however, as a statement would certainly have been in place were this to have been premeditated.
Holding the survivors without statement is also not illegal, at this stage. There will need to be a full accounting in time, but this is still very early days. Certainly a protest can be lodged, if you think it warranted, but right now you'd be protesting against your guess as to what happened.
Please don't mistake the above for the words of an apologist - it's just that most of those screeching and carrying on are owed no apology regardless of what happened. According to what we know, this was the death of State citizens at the hands of State security services. It'll be the Citizens of the State who are owed the apology, should the action have been unwarranted.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3210
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:20:29 -
[82] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Jenneth apologists in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You are the living embodiment of the old saying "People who don't stand for something, will fall for anything!"
Just because it makes a memorable slogan doesn't make it true, Mr. Ronin. People who do stand for something may not fall "for anything," but they're actually much easier to manipulate. You just play to what they already believe, and let their confirmation bias carry the weight of the lie. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
599
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:28:17 -
[83] - Quote
Olga Drottning wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted assault on innocent vessels. Ms. Drottning, you may have noticed pages of, "What the hell happened?!" from State loyalists and other parties in the opening pages of this discussion. Ms. Priano, you may also have noticed the lack of any sort of apology, and largely any kind of acknowledgement of the human cost of this tragedy in those same pages. This inordinate use of force can NOT be ignored. Although we should've expected the Caldari to escalate to full on ship to ship violence as they and their capsuleer supporters have proven wont to do in recent months. What do we, as the individuals here, owe you an apology for?
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Olga Drottning
Antumbra
21
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:31:47 -
[84] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted assault on innocent vessels. Ms. Drottning, you may have noticed pages of, "What the hell happened?!" from State loyalists and other parties in the opening pages of this discussion. Ms. Priano, you may also have noticed the lack of any sort of apology, and largely any kind of acknowledgement of the human cost of this tragedy in those same pages. This inordinate use of force can NOT be ignored. Although we should've expected the Caldari to escalate to full on ship to ship violence as they and their capsuleer supporters have proven wont to do in recent months. What do we, as the individuals here, owe you an apology for?
It's not for me.
The actions of your compatriots against unarmed vessels are abhorrent and should not be taken lying down. At the moment it looks like you condone it. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
599
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:33:41 -
[85] - Quote
Olga Drottning wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Olga Drottning wrote:I second the call for a public denouncement of this attack, if not from the mouth of the corporations themselves than at least from the capsuleer organisations that support them.
Silence is as bad as support for this brutal, unwarranted assault on innocent vessels. Ms. Drottning, you may have noticed pages of, "What the hell happened?!" from State loyalists and other parties in the opening pages of this discussion. Ms. Priano, you may also have noticed the lack of any sort of apology, and largely any kind of acknowledgement of the human cost of this tragedy in those same pages. This inordinate use of force can NOT be ignored. Although we should've expected the Caldari to escalate to full on ship to ship violence as they and their capsuleer supporters have proven wont to do in recent months. What do we, as the individuals here, owe you an apology for? It's not for me. The actions of your compatriots against unarmed vessels are abhorrent and should not be taken lying down. At the moment it looks like you condone it. Go back and actually read what I said then.
My views on this event have already been clearly expressed.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9435
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:36:05 -
[86] - Quote
Because we don't know the full circumstances, and so we can't ascribe blame or demand penance.
There are no end of questions that must be answered.
And, yes, I would seek answers to those questions from the State Armed Forces.
What's more, Ishukone is already on recording as condemning this occurrence, and Zainou is a part of the Ishukone family.
What more would you like? Wailing? Gnashing of teeth? Hair being pulled out?
This whole thing is a farce, and a farce that serves to further raise tensions. Inflammatory rhetoric will not help us resolve the current crisis.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Olga Drottning
Antumbra
22
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:36:37 -
[87] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote: Go back and actually read what I said then.
My apologies. I saw Kim's statements first, and the red mist descended. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9435
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:39:41 -
[88] - Quote
Ohhh.
Yeah. That will happen.
Please, do as many of us do: ignore her ranting. She doesn't represent us, and she doesn't represent the State.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
599
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 19:41:07 -
[89] - Quote
Olga Drottning wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote: Go back and actually read what I said then.
My apologies. I saw Kim's statements first, and the red mist descended. I understand that perfectly well, actually. I was much the same before I realized it wasn't worth wasting my red mist.
That said, I'll state my current frame of mind plainly; I find this event absolutely detestable on many levels, but like many, I see many inconsistencies and questions that need answers. Badly. If it IS as simple as presented, I hope they line up the ones responsible in front of a firing squad.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
857
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 20:29:40 -
[90] - Quote
To the Caldari in this thread: The brief sentences at the beginning of your posts that acknowledge this is a horrible act are completely drowned out by the pages of you then searching for explanations.
I am sure that you mean it when you say it but to everyone here that is not Caldari it just reads like now five pages of Caldari blaming the Federation pre-emptively for their freighters being killed and abusing the Federation loyalists and others who are not so eager as you to 'wait and see' why 7 freighters and all their Caldari-citizen crews were wiped out.
You are searching for answers, this is not bad. But attacking Federal loyalists and everyone else who wants answers is not painting the picture you think it is. That one moment you all dedicated to the horror of what has happened has become completely hollow.
I do not think it is intentional but you are all doing Diana Kim's work for her. Perhaps it is time you go into private channels and search for answers amongst yourselves until we actually get them. If you care at all that you are only reinforcing everything Julianus and James are saying.
It is sad to see because it is a normal reaction to look for another explanation. It is also normal to seek someone to blame. So both sides are behaving as god made us and now both sides are solidifying in their extremes. Be aware of the human nature to gloss over what you say and go directly to what they feared you would write.
As strength goes.
|
|
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
418
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 20:46:33 -
[91] - Quote
I feel like if there was actually something classified or dangerous or gank-worthy on the vessels, the State would have made that very much known, especially to garner the support of those who did not support the border closing. Maybe? I honestly have no idea how anything works, so don't listen to me.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
599
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 20:51:29 -
[92] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:I feel like if there was actually something classified or dangerous or gank-worthy on the vessels, the State would have made that very much known, especially to garner the support of those who did not support the border closing. Maybe? I honestly have no idea how anything works, so don't listen to me. I'd be inclined to agree. It's one of those aforementioned questions.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
400
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 21:39:06 -
[93] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Jenneth apologists in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You are the living embodiment of the old saying "People who don't stand for something, will fall for anything!" Just because it makes a memorable slogan doesn't make it true, Mr. Ronin. People who do stand for something may not fall "for anything," but they're actually much easier to manipulate. You just play to what they already believe, and let their confirmation bias carry the weight of the lie. You do not truly stand for something if you can be easily manipulated. Memorable slogans don't survive for long if they are not true at least to some extent.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3028
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 21:53:13 -
[94] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:I am sure that you mean it when you say it but to everyone here that is not Caldari it just reads like
You know, I can't speak for every non-Caldari here, but I'm sure glad Ayallah's here to tell me what I think of the statements from Caldari pilots in this thread. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
815
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 22:06:56 -
[95] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ayallah wrote:I am sure that you mean it when you say it but to everyone here that is not Caldari it just reads like You know, I can't speak for every non-Caldari here, but I'm sure glad Ayallah's here to tell me what I think of the statements from Caldari pilots in this thread.
Well she's not wrong in my opinion, if you wanted to hear that. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
395
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 22:31:14 -
[96] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:To the Caldari in this thread: The brief sentences at the beginning of your posts that acknowledge this is a horrible act are completely drowned out by the pages of you then searching for explanations.
I am sure that you mean it when you say it but to everyone here that is not Caldari it just reads like now five pages of Caldari blaming the Federation pre-emptively for their freighters being killed and abusing the Federation loyalists and others who are not so eager as you to 'wait and see' why 7 freighters and all their Caldari-citizen crews were wiped out.
You are searching for answers, this is not bad. But attacking Federal loyalists and everyone else who wants answers is not painting the picture you think it is. That one moment you all dedicated to the horror of what has happened has become completely hollow.
I do not think it is intentional but you are all doing Diana Kim's work for her. Perhaps it is time you go into private channels and search for answers amongst yourselves until we actually get them. If you care at all that you are only reinforcing everything Julianus and James are saying.
It is sad to see because it is a normal reaction to look for another explanation. It is also normal to seek someone to blame. So both sides are behaving as god made us and now both sides are solidifying in their extremes. Be aware of the human nature to gloss over what you say and go directly to what they feared you would write.
Thanks, Ayallah. I may not get along with your organization much, but we do agree on this basic point at least. And for my part, I will take greater care to compose my messages with a bit more forethought. The "New Eden cluster on brink of interstellar apocalypse" is wearing my few diplomatic skills a bit thin.
Regards,
Soter
Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter
https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7312
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 22:48:37 -
[97] - Quote
I dunno. Have I 'attacked' anyone or am I asking to hear the other side of the story before I come to my own conclusion?
Especially when I've been informed that it's up to me to sort this out..
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9436
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 22:53:12 -
[98] - Quote
Ayallah, very simply, I'm not sure we are reading the same thread.
Tuulinen-haan, it would seem that in the eyes of those who've been badgering citizens for the past weeks, anything but full-throated denunciation is explicit endorsement of an as-yet-unexplained extension of the crisis.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
859
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 23:30:33 -
[99] - Quote
No Pieter, you have not and I thought to mention your statement as a good example but felt it was better not to begin the road of picking people out individually. Others have though. In hunting for other explanations, in preparing a strong defense, they have gone on the offense and that is the sum of the problem and argument in this thread. The extreme views have already spoken and been ignored as usual so now it is many people who very nearly agree with each other nearly to threats.
And Makoto, we are reading the same thread. I said in my post that people tend to not read when they are upset or have some bias against the writer and you have done just that. Your sideways comment to Pieter just makes me tired, I am not here to fight anyone and I wonder if you are? I know that many of the Gallente pilots came here for that reason. I know for certain the Provists did. And all but the provists agree on their appraisal of the situation. But you and Arrendis dislike me, so you do not read what I say and just assume my intent from enough words to confirm that bias. It is in all of our nature to do so and it is blameless. I am only asking you to be aware of it.
We can all talk past each other for days or you can just re-read what I wrote. I see the Caldari prepared to denounce the actions of Caldari Customs but looking for more information out of faith in their State. A Gallente pilot with their blood up is going to see a token gesture to reason and the beginnings of blaming the Federation or changing the narrative of what happened.
I know it is not, you know it is not.
But for people in the heat of the moment they will read what they fear to hear. An insult spoken at the same volume as a compliment travels twice as far. Open, clear communication and an effort to understand the other point of view is the only sure balm against the coming of war. And as much as you think I would revel in a war to weaken who you think are my enemies, I know what war brings and I do not want to see it come to anyone. People at each other's throats and non-partisain efforts to take care of people effected shutting down are just a beginning. It only becomes worse from here.
As strength goes.
|
Matar Ronin
4134
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 23:41:52 -
[100] - Quote
How many Caldari Navy Admirals would need to convene before a statement of:
"After being told to stop, the seven Quafe unarmed cargo ships all disobeyed direct communications from the Caldari Navy warships ships actively targeting them and were destroyed while attempting to cross the Caldari-Gallente border."
That kind of statement leaves little doubt that although a brutal killing of defenseless cargo ships took place, they at least had a chance to avoid instant death, but instead chose not to take it.
Absent such a simple and clear explanation, that would be easy to give if it had taken place, and would not risk spilling any classified information as to any other reasons why the Quafe cargo ships were exterminated like vermin, the reasonable conclusion is that no such decent human warning was issued.
A simple "stop or I'll shoot" warning to seven lumbering freighters is not too much to expect from the highly trained and superbly skilled members of the Caldari Navy is it?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
|
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
663
|
Posted - 2017.03.26 23:53:32 -
[101] - Quote
Why would anyone transport empty bottles across multiple systems through a border to fill them up with a product and then send for distribution? It's 18 jumps.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3116
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:00:09 -
[102] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:You should know perfectly well that we're all tired of Kim, and that Kim is not a sound basis for policy. If anyone is not a sound basis for a policy, it is Makoto Priano. Luckily, my honor is intact, but this woman has been caught on a number of obvious lies: ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560 )
As you can see, she could never prove her slanders, nor have courage or honor to stand for them.
Know whom are you speaking with, ladies and gentlemen.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
TomHorn
Dragonaurs
294
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:01:04 -
[103] - Quote
State, doesn't just shoot down freighters for no reason. If they were told to turn back from the border and refused , then that is good enough reason to bring them down. I for one trust our Navy , Customs and Police forces to do their job competently.
If it was just supply run , they should of rerouted through the Amarr Empire, its long way round, tensions are high between the two nations , border is closed.
They've failed to obey orders from Customs or something prohibited has been scanned on board.
If perchance somehow a terrible mistake has happened , i'm sure it will be investigated those responsible held to account.
Let us have some faith in the State and our Meritocracy comrades. |
Matar Ronin
4134
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:09:59 -
[104] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote:Why would anyone transport empty bottles across multiple systems through a border to fill them up with a product and then send for distribution? It's 18 jumps. It is called a business model sir. They are a very very profitable corp. Instead of questioning why a corp that has fleets of ships kept profitable by their proven business model you might want to instead pick up some pointers on how they make isk.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Matar Ronin
4134
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:12:56 -
[105] - Quote
Seven freighters of empty bottles, kind of boggles the mind.
What kind of cash flow does Quafe enjoy if that much product is consumed. Pilots we all may be in the wrong business!
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
663
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:29:14 -
[106] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:It is called a business model sir. They are a very very profitable corp. Instead of questioning why a corp that has fleets of ships kept profitable by their proven business model you might want to instead pick up some pointers on how they make isk.
Quafe is a company that is big enough to fully cover the whole production chain starting from obtaining the materials for the said bottles, to producing them and then sending them packed to a bottling plant, that's not really surprising. But why produce bottles 18 jumps away from the plant in a different state? So much paperwork and logistics headache. Seems strange to me.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1580
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:54:28 -
[107] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Should I have started with bowing and scraping, Syagrius, while you and other nationalists insult us at every turn? No, I don't expect anything of the kind, and you donGÇÖt owe me anything. You seem to be conflating what I say with what others have said.
Let us recall that you started this little tiff with a snarky insult. So please donGÇÖtGÇÖ complain if I resort to the same.
What offends me about you and yours is your abject intellectual dishonesty regarding your own bias. I expect you to resort to the same rhetorical tactics time, you are indeed more predictable than gravity. Your Navy, not Ms. Kim... but your Navy, just eradicated a flotilla of Quafe freighters.... If reports are to be believed there are no survivors. I think it has gone a bit beyond a few 'radical nationalists', don't you? So please continue with the 'theories' of how it wasn't the actions of a terrorist state, but a broad conspiracy of "Federal Nationalists".
When you are ready for a substantive discussion we will know it.
In the mean time please continue, you are doing so well at agitating.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3032
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 00:58:24 -
[108] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote:Quafe is a company that is big enough to fully cover the whole production chain starting from obtaining the materials for the said bottles, to producing them and then sending them packed to a bottling plant, that's not really surprising. But why produce bottles 18 jumps away from the plant in a different state? So much paperwork and logistics headache. Seems strange to me.
Simple: those freighters start off delivering Quafe to various systems in a specific constellation. Then they have to come back, empty or full. So instead of wasting all that space, Quafe offers a nominal 'redemption' value, say 0.05 ISK, on each bottle (price not accurate). This redemption value is probably less than it costs them to make the bottle. Then they stuff all those bottles in the freighters that have to get back to the bottling plants anyway, and save shipping on new bottles. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9439
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 01:40:31 -
[109] - Quote
Syagrius, when I offer theories such as that, it isn't with a statement of belief, but rather an exploration of alternative ideas. Indeed, if you look closely at my statements, you'll see that often I do specifically allude to the ambiguity of the situation, and the fact that it may very well turn out to be something worth scouring the SAF for. On the other hand, you've been quite vocal on your view that the State as an entity has obviously attempted to weaponize Kyonoke to attack the Federation, and have militated for total war on that basis, with no proof whatsoever of your unfounded belief. What's more, you have been consistent and direct in your barrage of insults, minor and major, over this affair.
So, I'll be frank.
Syagrius, I don't give a damn if you're offended. You're going to be offended at anything the Caldari do at this stage.
Ayallah is right on one thing. People will read what they wish to read.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7314
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 02:23:57 -
[110] - Quote
The thing I find kind of disgusting is the assumption that we somehow need the Fed to be offended by the destruction of our own Citizens for us.
They're State citizens. I'm already upset that we lost that many of them to some sort of tragedy (whether it be a tragedy of errors or a deliberate atrocity). I don't think anyone is happy that this has happened and I think everybody is ready for criminals to be punished, those who made mistakes to be shamed for them and for faults to be admitted to and learned from.
Frankly, once I learned that these were State citizens who were dead, I was a little confused as to why the likes of James and especially Scroter were involved at all. What, exactly, is your axe to grind? It's an internal matter and we've been punishing our own criminals for a couple of centuries now.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3033
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 04:04:39 -
[111] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I don't think anyone is happy that this has happened
Have you seen Diana's posts? She's happy four thousand Caldari citizens were killed by the Caldari Navy for doing nothing illegal. Real champion of the Caldari people, there.
|
Matar Ronin
4142
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 04:04:56 -
[112] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The thing I find kind of disgusting is the assumption that we somehow need the Fed to be offended by the destruction of our own Citizens for us.
They're State citizens. I'm already upset that we lost that many of them to some sort of tragedy (whether it be a tragedy of errors or a deliberate atrocity). I don't think anyone is happy that this has happened and I think everybody is ready for criminals to be punished, those who made mistakes to be shamed for them and for faults to be admitted to and learned from.
Frankly, once I learned that these were State citizens who were dead, I was a little confused as to why the likes of James and especially Scroter were involved at all. What, exactly, is your axe to grind? It's an internal matter and we've been punishing our own criminals for a couple of centuries now. The scary thing is that when one of your past criminals pulled off a dynamic high visibility crime you made him your leader.
You have to admit that kind of track record will cause people to look and listen with great interest when a new dynamic crime is committed. Pilot Tuulinen if your way of approaching things was the way of the CEP many outside of the State would be less tense, but your sort of grounded thoughtful patriotism is not what the State is projecting, and that is a shame indeed.
On the outside we wait to see if reason or paranoia takes over in the State, while the soulless murmurs of the chants for total war gain footing and grow ever louder. I don't think the New Eden Cluster could allow another paranoid racist provist regime to run the Caldari State and it's potent war machine again, certainly many would take serious steps to abort that occurrence by any and all means available. Rightly so unfortunately.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
864
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 04:07:52 -
[113] - Quote
Lina Ambre wrote:Quafe employees, who also maintain status as corporate citizens of the Caldari State I believe the implication is that they were also Federal Citizens or Ethnically Gallente by the wording. Also implies in addition to.
Quafe is the only Gallente corporation that has been given corporate status in the State so it is very likely that they were Federal citizens first. Additionally Quafe is a Gallente company as well as a Caldari one so their interests could be for their stock, basic human empathy for tragedy or fellowship for their fellow Gallente.
I suspect it is because they assumed they were of the Federation by birth and right though. Regardless, they have every right to be as involved as any of us Capsuleers.
As strength goes.
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2044
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 05:06:16 -
[114] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote:Why would anyone transport empty bottles ?
Empty Quafe classic bottles.
Because that totally makes a difference.
These things are important.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7318
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 05:06:18 -
[115] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:The scary thing is that when one of your past criminals pulled off a dynamic high visibility crime you made him your leader.
You have to admit that kind of track record will cause people to look and listen with great interest when a new dynamic crime is committed. Pilot Tuulinen if your way of approaching things was the way of the CEP many outside of the State would be less tense, but your sort of grounded thoughtful patriotism is not what the State is projecting, and that is a shame indeed.
On the outside we wait to see if reason or paranoia takes over in the State, while the soulless murmurs of the chants for total war gain footing and grow ever louder. I don't think the New Eden Cluster could allow another paranoid racist provist regime to run the Caldari State and it's potent war machine again, certainly many would take serious steps to abort that occurrence by any and all means available. Rightly so unfortunately.
Well, let's address these in the order you brought them up.
Tibus Heth was not a criminal when he became leader of the State, he committed crimes WHILE he was leader of the State. He was then removed from office for those crimes. Whilst it's become fashionable to see him as some sort of facist dictator, he was not, in fact such. He was trying to become some sort of dictator when he was removed from office for the attempt and he was never facist - merely populist.
Secondly, my form of Patriotism is the patriotism of the heart. There is no need for me to simplify and amplify that message, because I'm speaking with peers and my position is not bound in with my reputation. When one is a leader of a people, messaging and branding become a lot more important - I doubt any of the leaders of the State or any other faction of New Eden hold politics so simple or extreme as their public positions. It's easy for me to be the acceptable face of the Patriot bloc because I have no skin in the game of pretending to be anything other than I am.
Thirdly, Jaijii had very little to do with Heth's rise to power and very little to do with his inevitable fall. These things were Caldari choices. Will the Caldari choose to elevate another populist, centrist candidate? Another provist? No. I don't think so - although I'll admit that ratchetting tensions with the Federation always makes this more likely rather than less likely.
Of course a return to an extremist State would suit certain groups of people - not all of them within the State. I hope people bear that in mind when deciding what sort of actions to support.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7318
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 05:11:44 -
[116] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:]I believe the implication is that they were also Federal Citizens or Ethnically Gallente by the wording. Also implies in addition to.
Quafe is the only Gallente corporation that has been given corporate status in the State so it is very likely that they were Federal citizens first. Additionally Quafe is a Gallente company as well as a Caldari one so their interests could be for their stock, basic human empathy for tragedy or fellowship for their fellow Gallente.
I suspect it is because they assumed they were of the Federation by birth and right though. Regardless, they have every right to be as involved as any of us Capsuleers.
If they were simply ethnically Gallente citizens of the State then that merits nothing more than a shrug from me. We have Citizens who are from many ethnicities - Civire, Deteis, Achur, Jin-Mei, Mannar, Intaki, Gallente and others.
If they were actually dual-citizenship persons then I have to admit the idea makes me throw up in my mouth a little. How can you claim to be loyal to the State AND the Federation when the two are at odds so freaking often?
But then, I never was a Quafe drinker. In fact the term was always a bit of an insult among my sibkin. I won't name the brand I prefer, but let's just say I prefer to drink mine cold.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
867
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 06:03:12 -
[117] - Quote
I doubt their share your black and white ideals of the State if they are Federal citizens Pieter. It was likely just a merit or requirement of working at their job for them.
They could all be Archuran though, we simply do not know that much only that they worked for Quafe and that makes them corporate citizens in the State. For most non-Caldai baseliners a job is just a job and not synonymous with nation like it is for you.
Imagine how you can be a KK citizen but still be contracted to Ishukone I guess.
As strength goes.
|
Matar Ronin
4144
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 08:07:23 -
[118] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:The scary thing is that when one of your past criminals pulled off a dynamic high visibility crime you made him your leader.
You have to admit that kind of track record will cause people to look and listen with great interest when a new dynamic crime is committed. Pilot Tuulinen if your way of approaching things was the way of the CEP many outside of the State would be less tense, but your sort of grounded thoughtful patriotism is not what the State is projecting, and that is a shame indeed.
On the outside we wait to see if reason or paranoia takes over in the State, while the soulless murmurs of the chants for total war gain footing and grow ever louder. I don't think the New Eden Cluster could allow another paranoid racist provist regime to run the Caldari State and it's potent war machine again, certainly many would take serious steps to abort that occurrence by any and all means available. Rightly so unfortunately.
Well, let's address these in the order you brought them up. Tibus Heth was not a criminal when he became leader of the State, Silly me I thought that whole take over of the foundry was not quite in line with Caldari laws.
It is a deeply sad thing when even reasonable sounding people rewrite the past to suit their needs instead of being true to the well known facts.
Tibus Heth was a racist criminal when he rose to power and was still a racist criminal when he was driven from power and fled with his tail between his legs like a cowardly cur. You might look backwards with rose colored glasses but for those of us who are clear eyed the facts of his rise and fall don't change with our needs of the moment, they are and will remain, what they are.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
733
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 08:17:48 -
[119] - Quote
The Matari uprising wasn't quite in line with the laws of the Empire, either; what are we even talking about?
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
|
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
410
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 09:23:43 -
[120] - Quote
Jev North wrote:The Matari uprising wasn't quite in line with the laws of the Empire, either; what are we even talking about? 1. "It's an internal matter and we've been punishing our own criminals for a couple of centuries now." - Tuulinen 2. "The scary thing is that when one of your past criminals pulled off a dynamic high visibility crime you made him your leader. You have to admit that kind of track record will cause people to look and listen with great interest when a new dynamic crime is committed." - Ronin 3. "Tibus Heth was not a criminal when he became leader of the State, he committed crimes WHILE he was leader of the State." - Tuulinen 4. "In the State, Civil Disobedience is still Disobedience. Non-Compliance with law is not tolerated. Compliance will be enforced. That is all." - also Tuulinen 5. "Reports are coming in from the Caldari State that three Caldari Constructions factories in the Piak, Aikantoh, and Litiura systems have been seized by rioting workers." - the news in YC110 6. "Silly me I thought that whole take over of the foundry was not quite in line with Caldari laws." - Ronin |
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
733
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 09:27:27 -
[121] - Quote
That was a rhetorical question, but thank you for the summary.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
|
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
29993
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 10:18:27 -
[122] - Quote
It is a conspiracy, they want us to drink Starsi!
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
|
Davlos
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
116
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 10:35:51 -
[123] - Quote
But Starsi tastes like revenge! |
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2339
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 12:55:03 -
[124] - Quote
Jev North wrote:The Matari uprising wasn't quite in line with the laws of the Empire, either; what are we even talking about? What even is law anymore?
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7320
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 13:55:01 -
[125] - Quote
When does criminal revolt become lawful protest?
When you win, I guess. You'll notice that Heth was never even charged with offences pertaining to those protests, let alone convicted of them. In fact I believe that there was a general amnesty offered to anyone involved, on the grounds that they were a legitimate protest against intolerable labour conditions and practices.
But, hey, if your grasp of law is such that nuances such as being charged, tried and convicted are unimportant to you then, hey, little point in my talking to you. Nice attempt at dredging up unconnected statements of mine and stitching them together into an entertaining puppet show, though. Almost like someone has an ace to grind.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
868
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 14:09:26 -
[126] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:When does criminal revolt become lawful protest? This is a stretch. There were bombs and guns and hostages taken. It was not some peaceful protest.
As strength goes.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
818
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 14:32:56 -
[127] - Quote
This thread is pretty much the most solid evidence in a while that even a "liberal Caldari" is just one inconvenient truth and incident away from Diana Kim-esque mental gymnastics on shifting blame and utter inability of admitting their own faults or inconsiderate attitudes.
|
Matar Ronin
4146
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 14:44:06 -
[128] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:When does criminal revolt become lawful protest?
When you win, I guess. You'll notice that Heth was never even charged with offences pertaining to those protests, let alone convicted of them. In fact I believe that there was a general amnesty offered to anyone involved, on the grounds that they were a legitimate protest against intolerable labour conditions and practices.
But, hey, if your grasp of law is such that nuances such as being charged, tried and convicted are unimportant to you then, hey, little point in my talking to you. Nice attempt at dredging up unconnected statements of mine and stitching them together into an entertaining puppet show, though. Almost like someone has an ace to grind. This is what it sounds like when you sacrifice your public credibility instead of just honestly admitting when you have misspoken. Pilot Tuulinen you are among friends and people who have respect for what you say, I am fairly sure not many expect you to be perfect all the time, just honest when you examine and discuss the facts with us.
If you can not do that, there is nothing nuanced about the damage it will inflict.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3117
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 14:51:57 -
[129] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:This thread is pretty much the most solid evidence in a while that even a "liberal Caldari" is just one inconvenient truth and incident away from Diana Kim-esque mental gymnastics on shifting blame and utter inability of admitting their own faults or inconsiderate attitudes.
It's a pity that when enemies of the State fail so catastrophically to stop us or object our points with facts, they just resort to such yelling and slanders. Quite a shameful display.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3212
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 15:38:41 -
[130] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:This thread is pretty much the most solid evidence in a while that even a "liberal Caldari" is just one inconvenient truth and incident away from Diana Kim-esque mental gymnastics on shifting blame and utter inability of admitting their own faults or inconsiderate attitudes.
Please bear in mind that "Liberal" means something different in the State: it's a term for a specific political faction favoring increased trade and involvement with the rest of New Eden. Caldari tend to be indoctrinated in loyalty from birth, and virtually all have engaged in some kind of armed service to the State. It's a very martial culture, and very trusting of authority, so when something happens that casts people that they'd have thought of as peers of a kind as unambiguous villains, the first thing to pop to mind is, "That doesn't sound like us. What the hell happened?"
That goes for the Liberals as much as anybody.
The word you might be looking for is jaalan, or "dissident." I'm maybe a little bit one of those, or might be, if I were still in the State (I have some pretty strong feelings about Caldari, and Achur, attitudes toward bloodlines). I've taken the course jaalan tend to be encouraged to, and left to find a home elsewhere.
The culture's still really hard to shake, though. I have barely any pleasant memories of the State itself left anymore-- my main recollection is of being a prisoner there, my status as a "person" in doubt after an issue with cloning (the one that caused the memory loss), but the culturally-inculcated "facts" my head is full of still have a lot to say.
That's not to say I think the State necessarily acted wrongly here. There's a lot of strangeness, and I do want to know more clearly what happened. What apparently happened is cartoonishly awful, so....
But I'll admit I might be too close to this, even now, to see clearly. Those of us in, or from, the State might all be. But it doesn't quite mean we're wrong. |
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7320
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:14:14 -
[131] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:When does criminal revolt become lawful protest? This is a stretch. There were bombs and guns and hostages taken. It was not some peaceful protest.
I seem to remember a focus on zero casualties by the occupiers, actually.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Matar Ronin
4149
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:16:47 -
[132] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Teinyhr wrote:This thread is pretty much the most solid evidence in a while that even a "liberal Caldari" is just one inconvenient truth and incident away from Diana Kim-esque mental gymnastics on shifting blame and utter inability of admitting their own faults or inconsiderate attitudes. Please bear in mind that "Liberal" means something different in the State: it's a term for a specific political faction favoring increased trade and involvement with the rest of New Eden. Caldari tend to be indoctrinated in loyalty from birth, and virtually all have engaged in some kind of armed service to the State. It's a very martial culture, and very trusting of authority, so when something happens that casts people that they'd have thought of as peers of a kind as unambiguous villains, the first thing to pop to mind is, "That doesn't sound like us. What the hell happened?" That goes for the Liberals as much as anybody. The word you might be looking for is jaalan, or "dissident." I'm maybe a little bit one of those, or might be, if I were still in the State (I have some pretty strong feelings about Caldari, and Achur, attitudes toward bloodlines). I've taken the course jaalan tend to be encouraged to, and left to find a home elsewhere. The culture's still really hard to shake, though. I have barely any pleasant memories of the State itself left anymore-- my main recollection is of being a prisoner there, my status as a "person" in doubt after an issue with cloning (the one that caused the memory loss), but the culturally-inculcated "facts" my head is full of still have a lot to say. That's not to say I think the State necessarily acted wrongly here. There's a lot of strangeness, and I do want to know more clearly what happened. What apparently happened is cartoonishly awful, so.... But I'll admit I might be too close to this, even now, to see clearly. Those of us in, or from, the State might all be. But it doesn't quite mean we're wrong. Please bear in mind I strongly suspect not many would care to have you define cultural and political terms for them.
You admit to having severe memory loss and being basically a broken person. That doesn't enhance your resume.
Let me share with you the view and perception from outside of your head; you seem to always have a strange very different meaning for every common situation.
I doubt seriously if most pilots here on IGS would consider Pilot Tuulinen a Caldari dissident, and just telling us that word in another language would not change that most likely majority opinion. It simply comes across as just a kinder gentler version of a Kim-esque semantic game where freedom equals chaos, unless you mean freedom from Gallente influence.
IGS communications are conducted in this common language, I do not often muddle it with Matari words because it's counter productive to communicating ideas to the largest possible audience here. Caldari are proud to use their language and there is no problem with their pride, it just makes their message less understandable to the great majority of us on IGS who are not Caldari.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
735
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:21:13 -
[133] - Quote
The thread has proven quite instructive in showing who's likely, perhaps eager, to be led around by the nose by a Scope article.
Things make a lot more sense from the perspective that everyone involved is a rational actor -- just that some of them are lying.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3034
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:51:25 -
[134] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:When does criminal revolt become lawful protest?
It doesn't. Protest is protest. Open revolt is open revolt.
Criminal revolt becomes lawful revolution at two points:
Point I: In the present tense, it becomes lawful revolution as soon as the speaker is a member of the group involved. "our rebellion" is always good and properGÇöwere it not, the participant wouldn't be a party, or would characterize it as something else. "their rebellion" or "your rebellion" is, in contrast, inherently improperGÇöwere it not, the speaker would support the effort.
Point II: As you say: when they win, after the fact, when others are forced to acknowledge their legitimacy.
But it never becomes lawful protest.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3035
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:56:25 -
[135] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:The sort of thing you'd expect him to have said.
Do shut up.
Aria isn't dictating how you define words, she's explaining how the Caldari use those words. And while she has severe memory loss about herself, she has made quite certain to be properly educated, even now.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3212
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 16:59:37 -
[136] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Please bear in mind I strongly suspect not many would care to have you define cultural and political terms for them.
You admit to having severe memory loss and being basically a broken person. That doesn't enhance your resume.
Okay, wow.
Mr. Ronin, I'm an induced amnesiac. My personal memories got digitally zilched out while I was in an archive state. It's not like I'm brain damaged.
Quote:Let me share with you the view and perception from outside of your head; you seem to always have a strange very different meaning for every common situation.
I doubt seriously if most pilots here on IGS would consider Pilot Tuulinen a Caldari dissident, and just telling us that word in another language would not change that most likely majority opinion. It simply comes across as just a kinder gentler version of a Kim-esque semantic game where freedom equals chaos, unless you mean freedom from Gallente influence.
IGS communications are conducted in this common language, I do not often muddle it with Matari words because it's counter productive to communicating ideas to the largest possible audience here. Caldari are proud to use their language and there is no problem with their pride, it just makes their message less understandable to the great majority of us on IGS who are not Caldari.
Some of the words I'm pointing out are political factions with specific names, Mr. Ronin: Liberal, Patriot, Practical. They're terms more for corporations and their policies than for individual Caldari. What I'm saying is that the Ishukone pilots are necessarily "Liberal," because Ishukone is, but not necessarily "liberal."
Pieter's a Patriot. Capital "P." Different State faction (his parent company is Kaalakiota, though I think he's currently on contract to I-RED, which is Liberal, capital "L"). And it's a little hard to describe him as a small "L" liberal, either, although he doesn't seem to look down of half-bloods like me. (I'm grateful for that.) As I think he's noted himself, Caldari capsuleers tend to become more flexible due to exposure to other cultures and perspectives.
I mentioned the word jaalan because it has particular importance to the Caldari, and tends to refer to an individual who, on their own initiative, is overtly critical of State entities, actions, and policies. It's pretty easy for a small-"L" liberal to be jaalan. Jaalan are usually tolerated, grudgingly, but the word does have negative connotations. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
930
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 17:16:02 -
[137] - Quote
*Grabs popcorn and settles in*
Best thread of the IGS thus far.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
874
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 17:23:25 -
[138] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I seem to remember a focus on zero casualties by the occupiers, actually. Which changes nothing about what I said. Had things gone differently then a lot of people would have died. They used the threat of violence and physical force. I respect greatly their control and precise use of force to get what they wanted, their restraint. But trying to paint it like a peaceful protest is wasting everyone's time. It was not a crowd of people with megaphones and signs outside a civic office because such a thing would not have worked. A very well controlled use of force is something to be respected and there is no need to paint it as anything else.
As strength goes.
|
Ashihei Shikkoken
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 18:05:38 -
[139] - Quote
Quafe were aware of the closure and their vessel attempted to run the border. The CCA took a calculated action. There are variables at play here outside our purview. The weight of their action will be borne dependent upon the nature of those variables. I'd like to hear it from the CEP, but I won't pretend I'm entitled to an explanation.
Someone's going to owe for the loss of State citizens. This border affair had better be worth the cost.
pâîpé¦pé¿péñpâòpâ¦péú
NOH pé+pâüpé+pâ¦
|
Gwion Achasse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 18:33:57 -
[140] - Quote
Shooting innocent convoys delivering something of actual quality and enjoyment to an otherwise dour and depressing corporate wasteland is hardly low for a culture that grows children in tubes.
Take care of your actions, Caldari. Just as they can be kind, the gods can be cruel. |
|
Aradina Varren
Alexylva Paradox
120
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 19:18:46 -
[141] - Quote
Gwion Achasse wrote:Shooting innocent convoys delivering something of actual quality and enjoyment to an otherwise dour and depressing corporate wasteland is hardly low for a culture that grows children in tubes.
This statement brought to you by Quafe.
There's no better soft drink on the market for quenching your thirst after insulting others based on nothing but the circumstances of their birth.
On a less sarcastic note, I take back what I said about people being reasonable in this thread. This thread has become a great example of people without critical thinking skills who are willing to take every opportunity to further their political goals, including advocating for war. Because now is a fantastic time for a full scale war. I won't name names, because they'll name themselves by getting offended over this statement.
Have some respect.
Feels Pretty Soft to Me.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
823
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 20:54:27 -
[142] - Quote
Maybe you should name names, because I might be missing something here, namely - who has been advocating for a war? I mean aside from the couple of usual suspects whom I thought nobody took seriously / everyone has on their ignore filters already, though even from them I didn't manage to pinpoint anything of the sort in a cursory glance. |
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
664
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 21:20:36 -
[143] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: Simple: those freighters start off delivering Quafe to various systems in a specific constellation. Then they have to come back, empty or full. So instead of wasting all that space, Quafe offers a nominal 'redemption' value, say 0.05 ISK, on each bottle (price not accurate). This redemption value is probably less than it costs them to make the bottle. Then they stuff all those bottles in the freighters that have to get back to the bottling plants anyway, and save shipping on new bottles.
I'd like to see their numbers, if that's the case. You'd need to set up logistics and personnel for a buyback program (let's say people put them in some automated crates that dispense money for bottles, you'd still need maintenance crew to sort this out), then load and unload these ships with empty bottles (they'd probably have staff for that sort of work anyway, but that's still a job you need to pay for in any case), then fuel costs (say, they are maybe partly compensating it with that buyback program). We'd also need to factor in the percent of bottles that are bought back for numbers to make sense and then calculate if the whole thing would be cheaper than producing a new bottle from scrap.
At a glance, it's easier to just let people toss the bottles in a garbage bin and let them sort this out at a reporocessing plant.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1454
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 21:38:36 -
[144] - Quote
The State are many things, stupid isn't one of them and this was stupid to a significant degree if we're to go by the official story. They wouldn't start shooting up unarmed freighters over Quafe returning some bloody empty drink canisters if there wasn't more to it than that.
Of course, exactly what 'more' there is to it is close to impossible to tell. As far as I know, we don't actually know that the cargo was just empty canisters, or if the crew didn't number potential intelligence operatives among them, or any other number of potential actual reasons for this display of violence.
For all the **** the State sometimes pull, I sort of doubt they'd fire on unarmed vessels without warning over something like this without attempts to turn them back, boarding and arresting the captains, or any other number of things you can do to enforce a closed border. Warp disruption, force compliance, warning shots (quite a few of them if necessary, those hulls can take a decent beating) and so on are all reasonable to expect and something no civilian captain carrying bloody bottles would try to force themselves past in an unarmed vessel.
So either these State forces destroyed multiple unarmed haulers full of harmless cargo and crew without using any of the tools available to them to enforce this border without such bloodshed, or the haulers were piloted by recent converts to the EoM or some crap like that.
Or...
There's more to this than what has been reported, unless the State's gone more insane than under Heth, and that's just not something I'm willing to assume. They're crazy, but Caldari crazy. This nonsense right here is a crazy none of our nations can claim just yet. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
824
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 22:02:16 -
[145] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:There's more to this than what has been reported,
This is the current consensus unless I'm mistaken. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9446
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 22:05:26 -
[146] - Quote
Thank you, Mizhara.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1586
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 22:19:02 -
[147] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:On the other hand, you've been quite vocal on your view that the State as an entity has obviously attempted to weaponize Kyonoke to attack the Federation, and have militated for total war on that basis, with no proof whatsoever of your unfounded belief. What's more, you have been consistent and direct in your barrage of insults, minor and major, over this affair. Well thank you, I do try to stay on message. While convoluted, I usually do have a destination in mind when I start a journey. It is a pity you and I canGÇÖt have a civil conversation, it might be fascinating. But back to it thenGǪ
There have been many theories postulated in this conversation and very little in the way of evidence offered, including by you. Kyonoke asideGǪ. Why is it do you think that I, a man of commerce would agitate for such a costly resolution?
Makoto Priano wrote:Syagrius, I don't give a damn if you're offended. You're going to be offended at anything the Caldari do at this stage. Well I suppose I shouldnGÇÖt expect an answer, It is easier when you simply dismiss contrary views isnGÇÖt it, but I shall soldier on.
It may come as a shock. But I donGÇÖt particularly care what you think of me, or most others for that matter. All the lovely, GÇ£James, why won't you be nice;" messages, from the codependent conciliation crowd, have I fear fallen upon deaf ears.
There is indeed a time for diplomacy, then there is a time for truth. The truth my dear is rarely diplomatic when we make it so, itGÇÖs called a lie.
If the honest facts of the matter are ever known, one of us will be vindicated. Or worse still, both partially.
James Syagrius wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Should I have started with bowing and scraping, Syagrius, while you and other nationalists insult us at every turn? No, I don't expect anything of the kind, and you donGÇÖt owe me anything. You seem to be conflating what I say with what others have said. You do indeed make a grand show of being and honest borker and above it all, but letGÇÖs be honest shall we, your primary loyalty is to the State, right or wrong, good or bad, and above all other considerations.
Everyone should remember that when listening to your elucidations.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
TomHorn
Dragonaurs
296
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 22:26:53 -
[148] - Quote
You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.
I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.
They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .
Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.
Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.
|
Oland Jan
Antumbra
5
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 00:08:59 -
[149] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:, its safe. Unless you are a crewman stacking bottles for Quafe. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but when you try to defend something like this, from whichever side, it just makes you look stupid.
|
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
664
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 01:11:38 -
[150] - Quote
Good thinking, Mizhara. If a conspiracy theory sounds too weird, it's probably true.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
|
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
29
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 03:22:38 -
[151] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.
I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.
They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .
Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.
Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.
The exact circumstances surrounding the interdiction and flotilla's destruction are unknown. Therefore, claims that the vessels had to be destroyed aren't holding very well yet, at least until supporting evidence comes out. |
TomHorn
Dragonaurs
296
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 04:02:49 -
[152] - Quote
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:TomHorn wrote:You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.
I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.
They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .
Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.
Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.
The exact circumstances surrounding the interdiction and flotilla's destruction are unknown. Therefore, claims that the vessels had to be destroyed aren't holding very well yet, at least until supporting evidence comes out.
Yeah, i can see that Yoshitaka . Maybe something will come out in the next few days , we aren't a democracy so there are no guarantees. No doubt the Senate will be complaining , along with the furor of some of the capsuleers , guess there is a good chance a statement will be made.
I have faith in our forces , and that they act appropriately. I feel that need for evidence for their actions is not required. Not for public consumption anyway. Those further up the chain of command will receive those answers , no doubt will the CEP . |
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
30
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 04:49:27 -
[153] - Quote
There are many - myself included - that believe evidence is in fact required. Per the last report:
"... and the Chief Executive Panel has warned Caldari corporations currently engaged in business with Gallente registered organizations that no non-capsuleer traffic will be permitted to cross the border into the State, regardless of any pre-approved customs and immigration documentation."
Quafe Company, to my knowledge, operates on a status similar to many corporations within the State as it is, in addition to its home operations within the Gallente Federation. The crews were - per report - full corporate citizens of the State, and were on a return trip which should not have been barred under the last portion of the quoted statement.
A compelling reason, along with compelling evidence, is needed for destruction of the flotilla to be considered a valid enforcement action in this case. Regardless, the case is already being brought to both the DED and CBT by Quafe Company - and is thus out of our capsule-bound hands. |
Akira Mapindazi
5
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 07:47:05 -
[154] - Quote
When the reason for this apparent tragedy is declassified and made public the commanding officers in charge will either vindicate the State or choose to demonstrate Caldari honor and shoulder the full burden of their decision. In either case we can all rest assured that justice has been done or will be done. With the notable exception of the infamous coward Tibus Heth Caldari are not known to run from the consequences of our actions. I strongly feel if the reasons can be declassified the actions will vindicate the State.
The first thing that came to my mind, and it is clearly without any facts to support it and I openly admit and make that fact a preamble to my personal conspiracy theory is: Vessels loaded with plague were being shipped to Gallente space from Caldari space by non-State infiltrators in an effort to make it look like the State was actively involved in such despicable acts. Intelligence officers of the State discovered the plot and were forced to completely "sanitize" the Quafe haulers before the infiltrators could launch escape pods and threaten the crews that would have been sent to recover survivors. In a circumstance like this I would understand both the kill order and the lack of survivors. Many forces would love to see the State and the Federation in full on warfare for their own selfish reasons. Disrupting a terrorist plot would also explain why the State has been reluctant to give any meaningful details, perhaps all the planners and participants have not been swept up yet and the State has no need to show it's cards and allow them notice that a net is closing in on them.
I find it more reasonable to assume harsh measures were used because of a grave threat and not just because of callous bluster and sabre rattling. I am not claiming to be impartial or to have bullet proof facts to support what I am suggesting "could" have happened. It just makes more sense that something extremely bad was going to happen if Caldari forces did not initiate swift and harsh actions. If this is not the scenario type that transpired and it was a field command decision against otherwise harmless cargo ships the Caldari will not tolerate it and the State's justice will be visited on the responsible parties. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3045
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 15:45:42 -
[155] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:I have faith in our forces , and that they act appropriately. I feel that need for evidence for their actions is not required. Not for public consumption anyway. Those further up the chain of command will receive those answers, no doubt will the CEP.
Blind faith is a wonderful thing... for those who seek to use you.
The moment you got your implants, you became nothing but a weapon to them. You, like all the rest of us, are not truly a citizen of anywhere. You are a loaded gun, to be used when possible, and pointed away from their precious nation-state the rest of the time. That's why the Pendulum Games exist, after all: to control potentially useful assets, while still keeping them away from 'decent people'.
Remove your blinders. No-one in power should ever go unquestioned. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2046
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 16:32:38 -
[156] - Quote
DRINK REVENGE !
IT TASTES LIKE STARSI !
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
828
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 18:31:22 -
[157] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:DRINK REVENGE !
IT TASTES LIKE STARSI !
Revenge Starsi, it tastes like drink |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
933
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 20:19:21 -
[158] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:DRINK REVENGE !
IT TASTES LIKE STARSI ! Revenge Starsi, it tastes like drink Starsi taste, drink revenge.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Graelyn
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
970
|
Posted - 2017.03.28 22:47:28 -
[159] - Quote
I still prefer it to Quafe. I like a touch of sweetness, not a bucket per sip.
Cardinal Graelyn
Imperial Liaison, I-RED
Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
|
Gwion Achasse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 14:06:44 -
[160] - Quote
Aradina Varren wrote:Gwion Achasse wrote:Shooting innocent convoys delivering something of actual quality and enjoyment to an otherwise dour and depressing corporate wasteland is hardly low for a culture that grows children in tubes. This statement brought to you by Quafe. There's no better soft drink on the market for quenching your thirst after insulting others based on nothing but the circumstances of their birth. On a less sarcastic note, I take back what I said about people being reasonable in this thread. This thread has become a great example of people without critical thinking skills who are willing to take every opportunity to further their political goals, including advocating for war. Because now is a fantastic time for a full scale war. I won't name names, because they'll name themselves by getting offended over this statement. Have some respect.
And this statement brought to you by...?
I do believe that blowing up convoys that are historically part of your rival political entity is one of the least reasonable maneuvers I can think of.
I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State.
If you don't want war, don't throw the first punch. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3050
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 14:12:20 -
[161] - Quote
Gwion Achasse wrote:I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State.
So you're hunting Caldari Navy personnel, then? If not, what exactly will you do to not tolerate this?
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7329
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 15:50:07 -
[162] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Gwion Achasse wrote:I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State. So you're hunting Caldari Navy personnel, then? If not, what exactly will you do to not tolerate this?
I'm going to guess that making posts on the IGS is probably the full extent. DEFIANT posts. In my face.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1592
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 18:25:21 -
[163] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Arrendis wrote:Gwion Achasse wrote:I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State. So you're hunting Caldari Navy personnel, then? If not, what exactly will you do to not tolerate this? I'm going to guess that making posts on the IGS is probably the full extent. DEFIANT posts. In my face. So...
Unless one is willing to kill their opinions don't have value?
I think it important we clarify that.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
740
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 18:36:53 -
[164] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: I'm going to guess that making posts on the IGS is probably the full extent. DEFIANT posts. In my face.
So... Unless one is willing to kill their opinions don't have value? I think it important we clarify that. I think Pieter meant to express that however much value an opinion has, it's going to stay an opinion, unless you're willing to do something other than blow hot air on the IGS.
Funny how your mind went straight to murder.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1469
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 18:48:15 -
[165] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder.
As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2048
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 19:01:31 -
[166] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous.
Relevant to what ?
I mean, take for example, a conflict between, oh I don't know, Lirsautton nationalists and Gallente federalists. Within their sphere, they might be highly relevant.
But in the sphere of say, Amarr religious conflicts, then does it matter what their views might be ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
605
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 19:07:19 -
[167] - Quote
Gwion Achasse wrote: And this statement brought to you by...?
A tube child, in this case, who up until recently thought well of your nation, despite the history of antagonism we share.
Gwion Achasse wrote: I do believe that blowing up convoys that are historically part of your rival political entity is one of the least reasonable maneuvers I can think of.
Everyone of sound mind agrees with you, so where's the issue?
Gwion Achasse wrote: I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State.
So you take issue with anyone who has loyalties to the State? Or merely those who haven't already expressed some variation of outrage at this event (all two of them)? If the former, why does your stance even matter beyond a display of nationalistic fervor, since it wouldn't be worth trying to sway your opinion anyways?
Gwion Achasse wrote: If you don't want war, don't throw the first punch.
Are you so certain it's us? All but our most myopic detractors don't seem to be.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
740
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 19:20:59 -
[168] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous. Fair enough. I shan't feel guilty about living up to my designated role, then.
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
933
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 20:19:58 -
[169] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous. Hey, murderfucking is how I make my living. People calling for more of it keep me in business.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1594
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 20:51:26 -
[170] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. Actually, I didn't, I said kill, not murder. A distinction without a difference perhaps, but a distinction none the less.
It seems of late that unless you are able to 'defend', 'display' or 'project power, then you and what you think are considered irrelevant. If we have devolved to might makes right, then fine. I just want us to be clear about it.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7331
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 20:54:47 -
[171] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous.
Doesn't have to be murderfucking. That's not the only way to make opinion into policy, it's just one of the clearest and most direct ways.
I'm just saying, don't talk about the sandwich you're thinking of making me, make me a damn sandwich. I can appreciate a sandwich and I'll respect a sandwich you make me, no matter how 1/10 that sandwich is. Discussing a sandwich never fed anyone - no matter how many toppings you're promising.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1822
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 20:59:50 -
[172] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous. Hey, murderfucking is how I make my living. People calling for more of it keep me in business. Thats funny, I thought it was "shooting those who deserve it..." |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7331
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 21:05:16 -
[173] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. Actually, I didn't, I said kill, not murder. A distinction without a difference perhaps, but a distinction none the less. It seems of late that unless you are able to 'defend', 'display' or 'project power, then you and what you think are considered irrelevant. If we have devolved to might makes right, then fine. I just want us to be clear about it.
Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS.
If 'won't tolerate' means a strongly worded letter of censure then it means nothing.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Aradina Varren
Alexylva Paradox
122
|
Posted - 2017.03.29 22:45:06 -
[174] - Quote
Gwion Achasse wrote: And this statement brought to you by...?
My statements were brought to you by empathy and compassion. And not being discriminatory. You directly called a lot of people "low points" for an entire society, comparing them to killing innocents. I'm not a tube child, but I won't tolerate that.
Gwion Achasse wrote: I do believe that blowing up convoys that are historically part of your rival political entity is one of the least reasonable maneuvers I can think of.
Almost like there's more to this that we're simply not privy to, and that we should wait for more information.
Gwion Achasse wrote: I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State.
So you don't want war, but you also don't tolerate anyone with loyalties to the State? Were you aiming for a cull or a massacre perhaps? Not technically war.
Gwion Achasse wrote: If you don't want war, don't throw the first punch.
Let's assume that there isn't anything else to this story, and that it was actually just enforcement of the borders, the Federation was spying on the State. Many would argue that espionage is that first punch. Do I agree? Not entirely. Would that justify the attack? No. But claiming that this was the first punch is utterly silly. The first punch was thrown a long, long time ago.
Feels Pretty Soft to Me.
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1595
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 00:44:06 -
[175] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun?
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
934
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 02:07:06 -
[176] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Jev North wrote:Funny how your mind went straight to murder. As if it's not exactly where anyone's mind went. It's exactly what people mean every damn time they start rejecting someone's views on the basis of "not enough murderfucking done to be relevant" and you know it. Pretending otherwise is rather disingenuous. Hey, murderfucking is how I make my living. People calling for more of it keep me in business. Thats funny, I thought it was "shooting those who deserve it..." We can murderfuck people who deserve it.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2116
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 02:10:46 -
[177] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun?
Just in case you didn't notice, Mr. Tuulinen has the evacuation of an entire arcology to organise.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3225
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 02:35:11 -
[178] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun? Just in case you didn't notice, Mr. Tuulinen has the evacuation of an entire arcology to organise.
And yet it doesn't seem like Mr. Tuulinen is the one who's changed. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2117
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 02:40:04 -
[179] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun? Just in case you didn't notice, Mr. Tuulinen has the evacuation of an entire arcology to organise. And yet it doesn't seem like Mr. Tuulinen is the one who's changed.
He seemed to have less patience today.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7337
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 03:32:30 -
[180] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun?
Well, yeah. Definitely. Fun is in very short supply these days in both our factions.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3118
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 10:06:21 -
[181] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Please bear in mind I strongly suspect not many would care to have you define cultural and political terms for them.
You admit to having severe memory loss and being basically a broken person. That doesn't enhance your resume. Okay, wow. Mr. Ronin, I'm an induced amnesiac. My personal memories got digitally zilched out while I was in an archive state. It's not like I'm brain damaged. I am sorry you have to deal with this... Ms. Jenneth. This Matar Ronin is almost Saya Ishikari in man's clothes.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Matar Ronin
4201
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 15:24:06 -
[182] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Please bear in mind I strongly suspect not many would care to have you define cultural and political terms for them.
You admit to having severe memory loss and being basically a broken person. That doesn't enhance your resume. Okay, wow. Mr. Ronin, I'm an induced amnesiac. My personal memories got digitally zilched out while I was in an archive state. It's not like I'm brain damaged. I am sorry you have to deal with this... Ms. Jenneth. This Matar Ronin is almost Saya Ishikari in man's clothes. Until you have the courage to fight a duel outside of your home space close your putrid mouth foul little sexless racist forum troll.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2340
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 17:40:09 -
[183] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Please bear in mind I strongly suspect not many would care to have you define cultural and political terms for them.
You admit to having severe memory loss and being basically a broken person. That doesn't enhance your resume. Okay, wow. Mr. Ronin, I'm an induced amnesiac. My personal memories got digitally zilched out while I was in an archive state. It's not like I'm brain damaged. I am sorry you have to deal with this... Ms. Jenneth. This Matar Ronin is almost Saya Ishikari in man's clothes. Until you have the courage to fight a duel outside of your home space close your putrid mouth foul little sexless racist forum troll. Sounds like somebody is angry. How's your blood pressure, Ronin?
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3228
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 17:59:00 -
[184] - Quote
That I know of, Mr. Ronin, she's fought at least two, in person, at Gottin's Lamp, in Amarr space. One of those was against me. (It was kind of messy, but probably a draw. She definitely won if the question was who lost consciousness last, though.) The other was against Teacher, that is, Templar Thal Vadam. (That one, I gather, was not a draw....)
In case that's not clear, she willingly engaged in close-quarters combat against a clone soldier who's been known to tear through deck plates. I don't think courage is a quality she's missing, very much. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
404
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 18:00:03 -
[185] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:TomHorn wrote:I have faith in our forces , and that they act appropriately. I feel that need for evidence for their actions is not required. Not for public consumption anyway. Those further up the chain of command will receive those answers, no doubt will the CEP. Blind faith is a wonderful thing... for those who seek to use you. The moment you got your implants, you became nothing but a weapon to them. You, like all the rest of us, are not truly a citizen of anywhere. You are a loaded gun, to be used when possible, and pointed away from their precious nation-state the rest of the time. That's why the Pendulum Games exist, after all: to control potentially useful assets, while still keeping them away from 'decent people'. Remove your blinders. No-one in power should ever go unquestioned. That's why CONCORD exists, everything else is just a by-product.
Heh, also good propaganda for 0.0 blocks "The moment you were born you were trapped. This is their game and you are being played, but we can help you out and remove your blinders you just have to do what we say!
That's a good pilot.
*pat* *pat* " |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
246
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 18:42:45 -
[186] - Quote
Ahh. Lets not allow Mr. Ronin to derail this thread. I don't have myself any thought about why Caldari attacked Quafe and what was behind that attack. I won't make assumptions and will just wait for Caldari officials to clarify their reasons behind that.
Meanwhile I will just pray for whomever were in these freighters, would it be gallente, or how Quafe claimed, Caldari citizens.
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
33
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 19:35:26 -
[187] - Quote
Sadly, all we can do is wait. Wait, and hope that the truth comes out. |
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
293
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 19:37:17 -
[188] - Quote
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Sadly, all we can do is wait. Wait, and hope that the truth comes out. The problem with waiting for the truth is that it gives a lot of less than truthful people time to mess with it. Sitting and waiting makes me crazy. But that's me. |
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
33
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 19:39:29 -
[189] - Quote
Agiri Falken wrote:Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Sadly, all we can do is wait. Wait, and hope that the truth comes out. The problem with waiting for the truth is that it gives a lot of less than truthful people time to mess with it. Sitting and waiting makes me crazy. But that's me. I don't disagree. Gives me a chance to work on rebuilding,, though. A form of a net gain, I suppose. |
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
293
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 19:41:35 -
[190] - Quote
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Agiri Falken wrote:Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Sadly, all we can do is wait. Wait, and hope that the truth comes out. The problem with waiting for the truth is that it gives a lot of less than truthful people time to mess with it. Sitting and waiting makes me crazy. But that's me. I don't disagree. Gives me a chance to work on rebuilding,, though. A form of a net gain, I suppose. Good attitude to have. I'll admit, I fixate on things like this. That said, best wishes towards your efforts. |
|
Matar Ronin
4202
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 21:05:54 -
[191] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:That I know of, Mr. Ronin, she's fought at least two, in person, at Gottin's Lamp, in Amarr space. One of those was against me. ( It was kind of messy, but probably a draw. She definitely won if the question was who lost consciousness last, though.) The other was against Teacher, that is, Templar Thal Vadam. (That one, I gather, was not a draw....) In case that's not clear, she willingly engaged in close-quarters combat against a clone soldier who's been known to tear through deck plates. I don't think courage is a quality she's missing, very much. Please provide PROOF of the fight with the clone soldier or keep your myth making to yourself. The only fist fight I know kim has had is the beating she took from Gallente civilians when she was a Caldari Marine, she speaks of it herself.
Since most military people would not talk of getting beat down by civilians I gave her the benefit of the doubt and believed her, however in hand to hand combat against a clone soldier I will need more than just the word of one of her fangirls, can you provide any at all?
If you don't think courage is a quality she is lacking in, it is just further proof of your disability in the area of thinking. I do not want to sound mean but you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. That would be a majority view of the non-kim / non- slavery cult apologists here on IGS.
kim knows where to find me, I live in Krilmokenur. I am unafraid to post my whereabouts, why is the putrid mouth mighty militia midget afraid to venture there?
I am an industrialist, not a full time warrior like kim alleges to be, I'd bet on her to win the fight if not for her blazing yellow streak of cowardice. That fact plus her foul mouth talked her into accepting a duel she knew she'd lose, so she tucked her tail between her legs and crawled away. Good thing she has a fantasy public relations squad like you to spin yarns about her besting clone soldiers in close quarters combat.
I hope she is paying you not too much because your story of her besting a clone soldier is far from realistic. What accomplishment will you credit her with next?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
610
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 21:26:26 -
[192] - Quote
When you're done beating your chest like a brain damaged primate, go back and read it again, then try as hard as you can to put some of it together.
Meanwhile, the matter at hand...
I'm more and more thinking that this was either a failure of command, or a failure of communication. Basically, the majority opinion. The one question I'm left with is; Why has neither side played this farther?
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1068
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 21:49:17 -
[193] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote: Please provide PROOF of the fight with the clone soldier or keep your myth making to yourself. The only fist fight I know kim has had is the beating she took from Gallente civilians when she was a Caldari Marine, she speaks of it herself.
Since most military people would not talk of getting beat down by civilians I gave her the benefit of the doubt and believed her, however in hand to hand combat against a clone soldier I will need more than just the word of one of her fangirls, can you provide any at all?
It was witnessed by two people. Myself and Sinti Vailatti. if you want the logs, I am happy to supply. Needless say the Templar won.
Mr. Ronin, despite our differences I have always respected you. I think you need to step back. and take a deep breath. You are beginning to sound like certain posters you deplore the more you.. err.. go on and on. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3054
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 21:55:03 -
[194] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:That's why CONCORD exists, everything else is just a by-product.
Heh, also good propaganda for 0.0 blocks "The moment you were born you were trapped. This is their game and you are being played, but we can help you out and remove your blinders you just have to do what we say!
That's a good pilot.
*pat* *pat* "
A)And CONCORD is no less corruptible than any other organization comprised of human beings. They, too, must never go unquestioned.
B)My statement applies to the null powers as much as it does to anyone else. If you think I don't question Mittens' decisions when I don't immediately understand them, you're more of an idiot than Ronin. |
Jason Galente
Tempest Legion
1078
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 21:55:38 -
[195] - Quote
Oh you have got to be ******* kidding me.
NO SODA ALLOWED
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1597
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:09:04 -
[196] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Nah, you know that I don't think that way. If you back a demand with 'or else' though, 'or else' better not mean shiptoasting on the IGS. I do indeed, is it just me, or did this used to be more fun? Just in case you didn't notice, Mr. Tuulinen has the evacuation of an entire arcology to organise. Mr. Egivand, I can assure that I have noticed.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Matar Ronin
4203
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:13:29 -
[197] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Matar Ronin wrote: Please provide PROOF of the fight with the clone soldier or keep your myth making to yourself. The only fist fight I know kim has had is the beating she took from Gallente civilians when she was a Caldari Marine, she speaks of it herself.
Since most military people would not talk of getting beat down by civilians I gave her the benefit of the doubt and believed her, however in hand to hand combat against a clone soldier I will need more than just the word of one of her fangirls, can you provide any at all? It was witnessed by two people. Myself and Sinti Vailatti. if you want the logs, I am happy to supply. Needless say the Templar won. Mr. Ronin, despite our differences I have always respected you. I think you need to step back. and take a deep breath. You are beginning to sound like certain posters you deplore the more you.. err.. go on and on. Pilot Aspenstar you are testifying to what you witnessed, that is appreciated. The myth spinning by fangirls like Aria fit into conversations on a less reliable level of hearsay.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1597
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:14:49 -
[198] - Quote
Agiri Falken wrote:Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Sadly, all we can do is wait. Wait, and hope that the truth comes out. The problem with waiting for the truth is that it gives a lot of less than truthful people time to mess with it. Indeed so. The longer it takes for the 'truth' to emerge the fewer people will believe it regardless.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3056
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:27:00 -
[199] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:fangirls like Aria
Are you actually calling Aria a DK fangirl?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH.
That's like calling you an Ardishapur fanboy. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3230
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:30:45 -
[200] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Aspenstar you are testifying to what you witnessed, that is appreciated. The myth spinning by fangirls like Aria fit into conversations on a less reliable level of hearsay.
I ... have no words. |
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
614
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:39:29 -
[201] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Aspenstar you are testifying to what you witnessed, that is appreciated. The myth spinning by fangirls like Aria fit into conversations on a less reliable level of hearsay. I ... have no words. Let me supply you with one then, Aria.
"Moron."
No need to mince them, in this case.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
TomHorn
Dragonaurs
296
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:47:11 -
[202] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:When you're done beating your chest like a brain damaged primate, go back and read it again, then try as hard as you can to put some of it together.
Meanwhile, the matter at hand...
I'm more and more thinking that this was either a failure of command, or a failure of communication. Basically, the majority opinion. The one question I'm left with is; Why has neither side played this farther?
Maybe there is nothing to play Ishikari-Haani . Standard operating procedure, and not failure of command or of communication. More time passes without hearing anything, more it points to the fact there is no conspiracy , there is no failure. Still relatively early , more could come out in the coming days.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2348
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:53:04 -
[203] - Quote
TomHorn wrote: More time passes without hearing anything, more it points to the fact there is no conspiracy
Or it's just being covered up really well.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3056
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 22:54:03 -
[204] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:More time passes without hearing anything, more it points to the fact there is no conspiracy , there is no failure.
The more time passes without a statement from the CEP that this was a good shoot, the more it looks like a stonewall and coverup. |
TomHorn
Dragonaurs
296
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 23:08:08 -
[205] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:TomHorn wrote:More time passes without hearing anything, more it points to the fact there is no conspiracy , there is no failure.
The more time passes without a statement from the CEP that this was a good shoot, the more it looks like a stonewall and coverup.
Usually Arrendis , Claudia , when somethings gone wrong it normally leaks out. That's the other side of coin , we just don't know. I'm Patriot , i'm hoping our forces have acted properly and appropriately, i'll admit i don't know what happened. Customs do , people on board the freighter do , they ain't around no more ,and one would think, so do CEP.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3059
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 23:11:08 -
[206] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:I'm Patriot , i'm hoping our forces have acted properly and appropriately, i'll admit i don't know what happened. Customs do , people on board the freighter do , they ain't around no more ,and one would think, so do CEP.
As I said: take the blinders off. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1477
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 23:14:39 -
[207] - Quote
Red here is in an outfit that thrives on spin, information control, misinformation and so on. This both lends weight to her words and also makes them deliciously ironic at the same time.
Enjoy this double treat, but do heed her words.
... with a bucket of salt, but heed nonetheless. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3060
|
Posted - 2017.03.30 23:18:07 -
[208] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Red here is in an outfit that thrives on spin, information control, misinformation and so on. This both lends weight to her words and also makes them deliciously ironic at the same time.
Enjoy this double treat, but do heed her words.
... with a bucket of salt, but heed nonetheless.
All completely true. |
Skyweir Kinnison
The Scope Gallente Federation
438
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 09:07:08 -
[209] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote: If you don't think courage is a quality she is lacking in, it is just further proof of your disability in the area of thinking. I do not want to sound mean but you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. That would be a majority view of the non-kim / non- slavery cult apologists here on IGS.
No-one could accuse me of being an apologist for either Kim or the Empire. You can demean yourself all you like with your public pronouncements - the right to prove yourself a dribbling fool to the community is a sacred and much valued aspect of Liberty - but do not presume to speak for others.
I have always found Mademoiselle Aria to be an articulate and thoughtful person in her writing and on the few occasions I have had the honour of meeting with her. We disagree on almost everything, politically speaking. Yet the spirit of democracy is greatly strengthened by hearing and engaging with a quick intelligence combined with insight such as hers.
She has a long-standing invitation to visit my family home, which is only extended to persons of integrity and charm. You sir, disgrace yourself with such rudeness towards a lady, and thus reveal yourself as a cad.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2121
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 09:27:35 -
[210] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Matar Ronin wrote: If you don't think courage is a quality she is lacking in, it is just further proof of your disability in the area of thinking. I do not want to sound mean but you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. That would be a majority view of the non-kim / non- slavery cult apologists here on IGS.
No-one could accuse me of being an apologist for either Kim or the Empire. You can demean yourself all you like with your public pronouncements - the right to prove yourself a dribbling fool to the community is a sacred and much valued aspect of Liberty - but do not presume to speak for others. I have always found Mademoiselle Aria to be an articulate and thoughtful person in her writing and on the few occasions I have had the honour of meeting with her. We disagree on almost everything, politically speaking. Yet the spirit of democracy is greatly strengthened by hearing and engaging with a quick intelligence combined with insight such as hers. She has a long-standing invitation to visit my family home, which is only extended to persons of integrity and charm. You sir, disgrace yourself with such rudeness towards a lady, and thus reveal yourself as a cad.
Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
|
Skyweir Kinnison
The Scope Gallente Federation
440
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 12:28:22 -
[211] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage.
Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
250
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 14:14:36 -
[212] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage. Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull.
It means the same thing where I come from!
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3120
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 14:15:55 -
[213] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Until you have the courage to fight a duel outside of your home space close your putrid mouth foul little sexless racist forum troll. Oh, I have fought quite a few, but you don't need to know about them. Thank you though for displaying your... qualities... as a tribal supporter... to all of those people who actually met me in honorable combat. And of course to all other readers.
Ladies and gentlemen, know your enemy - the Tribal. Please join 24th Crusade and State Protectorate today, and help us stop this disease! And excuse me for such shameless recruitment...
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7350
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 14:19:08 -
[214] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage. Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull. It means the same thing where I come from!
I guess you guys and the Matari must eat out with friends a lot...
Just for clarities sake, an invitation to my house for a meal is an invitation to eat a meal. In my house.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3065
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 14:35:32 -
[215] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, know your enemy - the Tribal. Please join 24th Crusade and State Protectorate today, and help us stop this disease! And excuse me for such shameless recruitment...
When you do not know of what you speak, your mouth is best used for chewing. Have another protein bar, Kim. Your enemy, in this case, is Ronin, an individual. And I don't know if you've noticed, but a fair number of us telling him he's an idiot are also Matari. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3121
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 15:00:31 -
[216] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: When you do not know of what you speak...
If that will happen someday somehow - tell me. Meanwhile, vacate frequency.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
35
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 15:33:41 -
[217] - Quote
Let's not get to attacking each other in what started as a discussion of the Quafe flotilla's destruction. Anything more... targeted... is better handled elsewhere. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
934
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 15:39:07 -
[218] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Maria Daphiti wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage. Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull. It means the same thing where I come from! I guess you guys and the Matari must eat out with friends a lot... Just for clarities sake, an invitation to my house for a meal is an invitation to eat a meal. In my house. Same. Or else I would have so many wives....
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
252
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 15:43:43 -
[219] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Maria Daphiti wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage. Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull. It means the same thing where I come from! I guess you guys and the Matari must eat out with friends a lot... Just for clarities sake, an invitation to my house for a meal is an invitation to eat a meal. In my house.
It's a real big deal to take someone from outside the family to meet them at the family home to mee the parents and grand parents!
Usually the implication is they are on the way to be becoming part of the family.
Family's pretty important in both the Empire and Republic I guess, even if for different reasons or cultures. |
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1069
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 15:56:50 -
[220] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:
It's a real big deal to take someone from outside the family to meet them at the family home to mee the parents and grand parents!
Usually the implication is they are on the way to be becoming part of the family.
Family's pretty important in both the Empire and Republic I guess, even if for different reasons or cultures.
So when are you bringing over a nice man to meet me and your father? Tick tock! You aren't getting any younger. (and don't give me the "I'm a capsuleer line"). |
|
Matar Ronin
4206
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:36:48 -
[221] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, know your enemy - the Tribal. Please join 24th Crusade and State Protectorate today, and help us stop this disease! And excuse me for such shameless recruitment... When you do not know of what you speak, your mouth is best used for chewing. Have another protein bar, Kim. Your enemy, in this case, is Ronin, an individual. And I don't know if you've noticed, but a fair number of us telling him he's an idiot are also Matari. Your statements and how kim treats you demonstrates who the idiot truly is.
Yeah, yeah, you got a bazillion kills, and you are a big time goon strategist, blah blah blah, however in this forum you are often an idiot who resorts to playing word games to feel like you have won something.
Truly sad that some Matari still feel the need to "qualify" themselves by attacking other Matari because it's popular.
The "Look at me I'm a good one" attitude is self loathing at it's most insidious.
As soon as you stop licking her boots kim will reapply them swiftly to kicking you in the ass no matter how many times you try and reason with the unreasonable racist. Feel free to use me to earn as many pats on the head from your slavery cult masters, theier allies, and apologists as they'll give you for slamming me.
I don't mind helping even a broken person feel better about them self at my expense. Clearly you are in need of validation and the opinions of those whom you seek so desperately mean nothing to me, so feel free to paint me as whatever kind of monster needed to satisfy those whose favor you work so hard to attain.
Just know in your heart of hearts whatever insults you say about me to my face, those who favor you seek, think that about you and say them behind your back. Nothing you do will ever change that, they are racists.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1490
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:38:18 -
[222] - Quote
Dude, have a protein bar. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
619
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 17:59:54 -
[223] - Quote
Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3123
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:14:37 -
[224] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple. I don't need company, nor advices from likes of you and Matar Ronin. Go back you both from where you have appeared, kindly. And sit there silently, everyone will be happy. Especially IGS readers.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Utari Onzo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1634
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:15:17 -
[225] - Quote
"Slavery cult masters."
Hmm, did Mr Ronin accuse Goonswarm of being a Slaver state or did he accuse her of being Amarr? If the latter, I welcome our new sister of the faith!
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1830
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:21:26 -
[226] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:"Slavery cult masters."
Hmm, did Mr Ronin accuse Goonswarm of being a Slaver state or did he accuse her of being Amarr? If the latter, I welcome our new sister of the faith! Think he was referrig to the max singularity thing. Could be wrog though. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
934
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:23:57 -
[227] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple. I don't need company, nor advices from likes of you and Matar Ronin. Go back you both from where you have appeared, kindly. And sit there silently, everyone will be happy. Especially IGS readers. Actually, us IGS readers would be happy if you and Ronin would stop sitting up threads with irrelevant side tracking posts. Just saying.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3123
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:33:06 -
[228] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple. I don't need company, nor advices from likes of you and Matar Ronin. Go back you both from where you have appeared, kindly. And sit there silently, everyone will be happy. Especially IGS readers. Actually, us IGS readers would be happy if you and Ronin would stop shitting up threads with irrelevant side tracking posts. Just saying. I only defend honor of Caldari State. But you, counterwise, Mr. Toov, you have joined the thread just to spread slanders about Caldari State officer, claiming it is I was side tracking posts.
You just did it, Mr. Toov, you have put your false accusation in a thread that wasn't neither about me or about you, and you are forcing me to reply on that useless amount of words you have spilled here, because it is my duty to keep honor of Caldari State intact.
I really prefer if you and others like you and Matar Ronin would stop spreading slanders, so I won't waste my precious time noting that what you say is a lie. Thanks and BYE.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1830
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:36:07 -
[229] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple. I don't need company, nor advices from likes of you and Matar Ronin. Go back you both from where you have appeared, kindly. And sit there silently, everyone will be happy. Especially IGS readers. Actually, us IGS readers would be happy if you and Ronin would stop shitting up threads with irrelevant side tracking posts. Just saying. I only defend honor of Caldari State. But you, counterwise, Mr. Toov, you have joined the thread just to spread slanders about Caldari State officer, claiming it is I was side tracking posts. You just did it, Mr. Toov, you have put your false accusation in a thread that wasn't neither about me or about you, and you are forcing me to reply on that useless amount of words you have spilled here, because it is my duty to keep honor of Caldari State intact. I really prefer if you and others like you and Matar Ronin would stop spreading slanders, so I won't waste my precious time noting that what you say is a lie. Thanks and BYE. This just in, Kim thinks the state is a fragile flower that can't stand on its own and needs vigilant protection from the likes of the republic. If the gallante only knew they simply need mean words to defeat the state.... |
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1605
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:36:21 -
[230] - Quote
Success should be recognized!
Ms. Kim congratulations!
I am fascinated how with the same narrow rhetoric you manage to dominate every discussion.
It is an absolutely fascinating phenomenon and a powerful ability to be sure.
The naval forces of a major power decimate a flotilla of freighters, apparently killing all aboard but somehow all people are interested in are the most trivial your interpersonal habits.
You are indeed a force to be reckoned with.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
938
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:38:53 -
[231] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Saya Ishikari wrote:Well, Kim does need company. I'm sure they'll make a cute couple. I don't need company, nor advices from likes of you and Matar Ronin. Go back you both from where you have appeared, kindly. And sit there silently, everyone will be happy. Especially IGS readers. Actually, us IGS readers would be happy if you and Ronin would stop shitting up threads with irrelevant side tracking posts. Just saying. I only defend honor of Caldari State. But you, counterwise, Mr. Toov, you have joined the thread just to spread slanders about Caldari State officer, claiming it is I was side tracking posts. You just did it, Mr. Toov, you have put your false accusation in a thread that wasn't neither about me or about you, and you are forcing me to reply on that useless amount of words you have spilled here, because it is my duty to keep honor of Caldari State intact. I really prefer if you and others like you and Matar Ronin would stop spreading slanders, so I won't waste my precious time noting that what you say is a lie. Thanks and BYE. Is this thread about you, me, Ronin, or your honor? No, it's not. If you wish to defend your honor against Ronin then do so elsewhere. It has no place in this thread. Likewise, Ronin, if you feel the need to question Kim's honor or courage make another place (or use one of the million already dedicated to just that). It's getting tiresome listening to the same go-round in every thread.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3126
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:51:48 -
[232] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote: This just in, Kim thinks the state is a fragile flower that can't stand on its own and needs vigilant protection from the likes of the republic. If the gallante only knew they simply need mean words to defeat the state....
No, I am not. Stop spreading your minmatarish lack of intelligence by claiming you would know what I am thinking about. Obviously, you lack couple of gears to put it together.
I though now have to explain because of your derailing into the topic, that you used to lie about Caldari Officer instead of discussing the subject.
I think that it is DUTY of every Caldari citizen to defend our homeland, disregarding how strong or weak it is. As to return discussion back to the topic: yes, it is also our DUTY to defend our borders from foreign occupants...
Even if they were just QUAFE FREIGHTERS.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
938
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:55:29 -
[233] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:
Even if they were just QUAFE FREIGHTERS.
Full of Caldari citizens. But that's none of my business....
*sips tea*
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1834
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:57:34 -
[234] - Quote
Off topic: Do you activate reps when someone shoots fireworks at the guy next to you?
On topic: I don't see why its news. Horrible, maybe depending on details we dont know. Though at face value, how dare you police your borders?!?! I have to agree with you. |
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1607
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 18:58:05 -
[235] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:I think that it is DUTY of every Caldari citizen to defend our homeland, disregarding how strong or weak it is. As to return discussion back to the topic: yes, it is also our DUTY to defend our borders from foreign occupants... Well thank you for returning us to the topic. I know I may well regret doing so, but to clarify... 'defending your borders from foreign occupants'? They were leaving and as I understand it the majority of the crew were 'State' citizens? How does that constitute 'defending'?
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Natheniel
Mostly Sober The Bastard Cartel
121
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 19:00:06 -
[236] - Quote
And this is why Quafe needs to be destroyed.
"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
623
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 19:06:19 -
[237] - Quote
Natheniel wrote:And this is why Quafe needs to be destroyed. Don't you dare.
It's the best degreaser I've ever seen.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3127
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 19:35:41 -
[238] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Diana Kim wrote:I think that it is DUTY of every Caldari citizen to defend our homeland, disregarding how strong or weak it is. As to return discussion back to the topic: yes, it is also our DUTY to defend our borders from foreign occupants... Well thank you for returning us to the topic. I know I may well regret doing so, but to clarify... ' defending your borders from foreign occupants'? They were leaving and as I understand it the majority of the crew were 'State' citizens? How does that constitute 'defending'? Quafe said so.
Navy said we are locking from those, who attempt to invade.
I tend to believe Navy way more than some lousy Gallente corporation.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
946
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 19:44:40 -
[239] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Diana Kim wrote:I think that it is DUTY of every Caldari citizen to defend our homeland, disregarding how strong or weak it is. As to return discussion back to the topic: yes, it is also our DUTY to defend our borders from foreign occupants... Well thank you for returning us to the topic. I know I may well regret doing so, but to clarify... ' defending your borders from foreign occupants'? They were leaving and as I understand it the majority of the crew were 'State' citizens? How does that constitute 'defending'? Quafe said so. Navy said we are locking from those, who attempt to invade. I tend to believe Navy way more than some lousy Gallente corporation. Please explain how outbound ships are an invasion.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Elanion
73
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 20:29:16 -
[240] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Please explain how outbound ships are an invasion. Ship by ship, freighter by freighter, we remove planetary mass from Caldari space, reconstituting it on the Federation side of the border. In this way, we claim sovereignty over these worlds without needing to bungle with military escapades.
RIP YC111-115 GÇó "The project discarded, its subjects forgotten... thence must the burden be shouldered."
|
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
955
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 21:22:35 -
[241] - Quote
Elanion wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Please explain how outbound ships are an invasion. Ship by ship, freighter by freighter, we remove planetary mass from Caldari space, reconstituting it on the Federation side of the border. In this way, we claim sovereignty over these worlds without needing to bungle with military escapades. Well, looks like the attack was completely justified then.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3069
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 21:27:48 -
[242] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Your statements and how kim treats you demonstrates who the idiot truly is.
Yes, because I judge the truth based on whether or not I like someone. Really, can you be stupider?
Quote: Yeah, yeah, you got a bazillion kills,
I'm a dedicated Logistics pilot. I don't actually have a large number of kills. Perhaps if you bothered to do more than shooting off your mouth in pointless blabber, you'd even be right occassionally.
Quote: Truly sad that some Matari still feel the need to "qualify" themselves by attacking other Matari because it's popular.
The "Look at me I'm a good one" attitude is self loathing at it's most insidious.
Yes, I'm trying to be 'the good one' and 'bootlicking' when I call both of you idiots in more or less the same breath. The very fact that you both think just being Matari means we should all agree with you says far more than any points I could make. I slam you for the same reason I slam Kim:
You're a pair of blithering idiots.
Kim's a xenophobic nutjob who's proven herself terminally insecure about her own body issues and feels the need to cover that up by being hyper-aggressive. She can't handle criticism because she needs to prove to herself that she's not inadequate.
You, on the other hand, are an egotistical tool who imagines himself knowledgeable, despite consistently saying whatever chest-beating nonsense comes to mind, no matter how easily it can be demonstrated to be wrong. You can't handle criticism because you're also clearly covering for personal inadequacies. Unlike Diana, they're not rooted in self-image issues, but in pure, unadulterated pride and laziness.
And both of those can be verified with the observation of independent parties. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3069
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 21:29:43 -
[243] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Success should be recognized!
Ms. Kim congratulations!
I am fascinated how with the same narrow rhetoric you manage to dominate every discussion.
Eh, we don't have any new developments in the actual matter at hand to pour over, so it's kind of inevitable.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
955
|
Posted - 2017.03.31 21:33:09 -
[244] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Success should be recognized!
Ms. Kim congratulations!
I am fascinated how with the same narrow rhetoric you manage to dominate every discussion. Eh, we don't have any new developments in the actual matter at hand to pour over, so it's kind of inevitable. And let's be fair here, she wouldn't be able to do it if we didn't engage her...
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1612
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 01:38:25 -
[245] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:And let's be fair here, she wouldn't be able to do it if we didn't engage her... Well, please don't understand I found Ms. Kim a charming dinner companion. But some do encourage her flights of fancy.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3128
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 03:33:45 -
[246] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: Kim's a xenophobic nutjob who's proven herself terminally insecure about her own body issues and feels the need to cover that up by being hyper-aggressive. She can't handle criticism because she needs to prove to herself that she's not inadequate.
Caldari State has many enemies. When they fail to counter us on field, they resort to such pathetic tactic at spreading slandering about us in public comms.
Shame to you, liar. I hope you will choke on your foul words.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Matar Ronin
4210
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 06:47:02 -
[247] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Your statements and how kim treats you demonstrates who the idiot truly is. Yes, because I judge the truth based on whether or not I like someone. Really, can you be stupider? [If I was more stupid I'd be a goon, low iq and even lower standards are obvious prerequisites]Quote: Truly sad that some Matari still feel the need to "qualify" themselves by attacking other Matari because it's popular.
The "Look at me I'm a good one" attitude is self loathing at it's most insidious.
You, on the other hand, are an egotistical tool who imagines himself knowledgeable, despite consistently saying whatever chest-beating nonsense comes to mind, [How many non-Matari have you ever referred to as chest beating Arrendis?]no matter how easily it can be demonstrated to be wrong. You can't handle criticism because you're also clearly covering for personal inadequacies. Unlike Diana, they're not rooted in self-image issues, but in pure, unadulterated pride and laziness. [I indeed have pride in being an accomplished industrialist and a standout scientist that can build research and reverse engineer just about every ship from the Carriers down. Not too shabby for someone you claim is subject to laziness. Again I'd ask you how many non-Matari do you call lazy here on IGS? Seems like you save your stereotype insults for the stupid lazy chest beating Matari. Coincidence or just more proof of your self loathing?] And both of those can be verified with the observation of independent parties. Review your own record in the IGS forums perhaps you are not even aware of your pattern.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Matar Ronin
4210
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 06:58:47 -
[248] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Aspenstar you are testifying to what you witnessed, that is appreciated. The myth spinning by fangirls like Aria fit into conversations on a less reliable level of hearsay. I ... have no clue. See I fixed that for you.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2122
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 07:44:58 -
[249] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Maria Daphiti wrote:Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Back home, an invitation to visit the family home is the same thing as 'welding the familial bonds', 'chaining fates together' or, putting it very bluntly: proposing marriage. Well then, your home life must either be very exciting, or very dull. It means the same thing where I come from! I guess you guys and the Matari must eat out with friends a lot... Just for clarities sake, an invitation to my house for a meal is an invitation to eat a meal. In my house. It's a real big deal to take someone from outside the family to meet them at the family home to meet the parents and grand parents! Usually the implication is they are on the way to be becoming part of the family. Family's pretty important in both the Empire and Republic I guess, even if for different reasons or cultures.
There is a very big difference between 'home' and 'family home'. The first is where you live currently, and the second is where you used to live and where your parents and elders still live in.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
250
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 10:32:51 -
[250] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Pilot Aspenstar you are testifying to what you witnessed, that is appreciated. The myth spinning by fangirls like Aria fit into conversations on a less reliable level of hearsay. I ... have no clue. See I fixed that for you. Redacting other people's replies for your own interest is the worst type of trolling. Please leave.
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3081
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 13:03:28 -
[251] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote: [How many non-Matari have you ever referred to as chest beating Arrendis?] Review your own record in the IGS forums perhaps you are not even aware of your pattern.
Yes, let's.
A search for posts from me containing the term 'chest-beating' (as it's a hyphenated compound word when used as a descriptive, not two words, as when used as an actual verb) turns up quite the trend of singling out Matari. It comes up in two whole posts. One was to you. The other was to Ben Booley of Rote Kapelle, who is Civire. You know, from the Caldari State?
So, looks like we've once again demonstrated just how much you spout off whatever comes into that little pea-brain of yours, "no matter how easily it can be demonstrated to be wrong."
As for your industrial prowess... you can build everything up to carriers? OH MY. I'll be sure to let the guys in DekSwat know they should poach you when they get bored building titans and supercarriers. Hell, I'm not an industrialist, and I can build carriers. And if you think the guys in DekSwat aren't lazy bastards, Iamraptor lost a Levi in our staging system because he couldn't be bothered switching over to a passive fit... with a capital fleet around him. And he builds the damned things.
So, really, if that's you're 'I'm not a lazy idiot' card, I know even lazier idiots who're more accomplished than your grandiose claims, and none of them would consider denying it.
|
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
630
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 15:52:38 -
[252] - Quote
Oh, come on now... Don't confuse him with things like facts. It's unfair.
"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
406
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 16:43:29 -
[253] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Your statements and how kim treats you demonstrates who the idiot truly is. Yes, because I judge the truth based on whether or not I like someone. Really, can you be stupider? Funny that you mentioned that, most of the time that is what happens tho especially on reactionary level. |
Matar Ronin
4220
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 16:53:19 -
[254] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Matar Ronin wrote: [How many non-Matari have you ever referred to as chest beating Arrendis?] Review your own record in the IGS forums perhaps you are not even aware of your pattern.
Yes, let's. A search for posts from me containing the term 'chest-beating' (as it's a hyphenated compound word when used as a descriptive, not two words, as when used as an actual verb) turns up quite the trend of singling out Matari. It comes up in two whole posts. One was to you. The other was to Ben Booley of Rote Kapelle, who is Civire. You know, from the Caldari State? So, looks like we've once again demonstrated just how much you spout off whatever comes into that little pea-brain of yours, "no matter how easily it can be demonstrated to be wrong." As for your industrial prowess... you can build everything up to carriers? OH MY. I'll be sure to let the guys in DekSwat know they should poach you when they get bored building titans and supercarriers. Hell, I'm not an industrialist, and I can build carriers. And if you think the guys in DekSwat aren't lazy bastards, Iamraptor lost a Levi in our staging system because he couldn't be bothered switching over to a passive fit... with a capital fleet around him. And he builds the damned things. So, really, if that's you're 'I'm not a lazy idiot' card, I know even lazier idiots who're more accomplished than your grandiose claims, and none of them would consider denying it. Edit to add: Just to have it said, Ronin, most of the guys in DekSwat aren't Matari. It's about an even distribution. They're all still lazy idiots. That's why they're in DekSwat: if lets them be lazy and not have to worry about thinking much. I am sure everyone believes you to be the goon master builder, lol.
Your continued habit of saying anything to feel like you've won a verbal joust knows no limits. Perhaps that is why you feel the need to support kim, you are both kindred lying spirits.
When it comes to being lazy little in eve exceeds being a little bee in a goonswarm, all you have to do is always follow orders from your intoxicated leadership and show up in numbers great enough to overwhelm your target.
In the case when you did not outnumber your target you lost the war. Perhaps had you really been the goon master builder and goon master strategist you also claim to be goons would have won.
But they and you are not at all as advertised.
Arrendis would you participate in a thread with me where we could argue/debate/discuss all things industrial, logistics, and military?
I think your vast knowledge and mastery of all these areas would make for stimulating debate.
Only Three hard and fast rules;
One no lying,
two admit that when you are stating an opinion/conclusion it is not a fact,
and three ask our supporters not to chime in with helpful re-definitions of what we post in that thread.
The gaggle of fanbois and fangirls that quickly try to spin every posted slip is boring and distracting, the "well what I think that he/she meant was" crowd need to understand our statements will be defined by the two of us alone.
Do you have the intellectual rigor to meet those three basic simple conditions? Honestly I doubt you do, but the exchange would be wonderful if you could.
We could start with the production line required to build frigates from a theoretical corp of one hundred members, where the problems appear, and what are the best practices to get around them on the industrial side. On the logistics front we could talk about getting the frigates along with their properly trained pilots to the battlefield armed and fit. Finally on the military strategy side we could argue the merits of the different fits and how their design functions fit into a cohesive battle strategy for victory. I am sure you could bring much to a forum discussion in these areas and limiting it to the truth would make it very valuable for any interested parties.
If you only have time to do drive by insults and lying in the forums it is understandable and something you are quite experienced with so I'll understand if you decline, agreeing to those three simple rules would take a level of integrity not required by the lying and searching for approval you have become so expert at.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1501
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 16:59:07 -
[255] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
Yes, let's.
... not.
Be the better person and don't devote this much time and effort in perpetuating this crapshow of a topic, hmm? This is crap posting HQ certainly, but you aren't doing yourself or anyone else any favors by pouring this much effort into it. Make these boards a slightly better place by keeping shiptoasting low effort and promoting the actually decent discussions with the proper effort you're capable of.
Resource allocation, Red, you should be decent at it. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
965
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 18:56:15 -
[256] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Arrendis wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:loads of BS TL;DR TL;DR Think it's time to hang it up guys you won't make him see reason, Arrendis. And Ronin? Congrats, you're the republics's Diana Kim now. Good luck being taken seriously by anyone regardless of your accomplishments.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3087
|
Posted - 2017.04.01 19:16:52 -
[257] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Arrendis wrote:
Yes, let's.
... not. Be the better person and don't devote this much time and effort in perpetuating this crapshow of a topic, hmm? This is crap posting HQ certainly, but you aren't doing yourself or anyone else any favors by pouring this much effort into it. Make these boards a slightly better place by keeping shiptoasting low effort and promoting the actually decent discussions with the proper effort you're capable of. Resource allocation, Red, you should be decent at it.
I've said my piece. He's responded by setting up a straw man and making himself look even more foolish. I don't think I need to say anything more.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3132
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 04:10:07 -
[258] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote: Think it's time to hang it up guys you won't make him see reason, Arrendis. And Ronin? Congrats, you're the republics's Diana Kim now. Good luck being taken seriously by anyone regardless of your accomplishments.
Your words about me are empty and groundless accusations, that degrade not me, but your person.
Luckily, no here are dumb enough to fall for your delusional lies about me. (Well, maybe except types like Matar Ronin, Arrendis and Saya Ishikari, but these are just special ones).
I would kindly ask you to leave the IGS and stop spewing our your hatred and derailing threads, trying to discuss me, and not just discuss, but provoke such sort of discussions by dumping outrageous lies.
Just, be gone. You are not a person suitable for civilized conversations.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Madhatter's Tea House Arx Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 05:53:51 -
[259] - Quote
Apparently, discussions about the interdiction action have given way to personal attacks. This discussion may end up closed, at this rate, if we can't refocus. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
970
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 07:59:40 -
[260] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote: Think it's time to hang it up guys you won't make him see reason, Arrendis. And Ronin? Congrats, you're the republics's Diana Kim now. Good luck being taken seriously by anyone regardless of your accomplishments.
Your words about me are empty and groundless accusations, that degrade not me, but your person. Luckily, no here are dumb enough to fall for your delusional lies about me. (Well, maybe except types like Matar Ronin, Arrendis and Saya Ishikari, but these are just special ones). I would kindly ask you to leave the IGS and stop spewing our your hatred and derailing threads, trying to discuss me, and not just discuss, but provoke such sort of discussions by dumping outrageous lies. Just, be gone. You are not a person suitable for civilized conversations. Uh-huh, sure, whatever. (This is intended as a dismissal of your position, not an affirmation.) As a person, you are in fact the lowest form of scum and not with the effort. I'm blocking both you and Ronin from this point forward.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3132
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 08:59:32 -
[261] - Quote
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:Apparently, discussions about the interdiction action have given way to personal attacks. This discussion may end up closed, at this rate, if we can't refocus. I have tried, but there are people like this Tyrel Toov who wants to discuss me. Hell, not even discuss, just use thread as his board to post lies about me. That's quite shameful display of behavior, even for an enemy of the State.
But anyway, lets try again to refocus it back to where it belongs, instead of... asking others to do that.
Someone has claimed that Quafe transports were returning. But does we know if this is true? Our HQ hasn't confirmed these claims. On the other hand, even returning ships could have simply violated orders of border guards. They could simply not mention the fact they were asked to do something. In most cases it is true for incoming ships as well: they are asked first to turn around and only after that they are being shot. Exclusion to this is only military vessels or vessels with known military symbolics: FDU, FedNavy, BlackEagle, FIO, TLF, and so on.
If ships were of not military origin, just Quafe, they definitely should have been asked first to follow a certain order. And you know, if a civilian ship doesn't follow an order from a military unit that is placed in a strategic point, it is just considered an enemy unit in disguise and it is shot down.
Do you remember prior to drug legalization what would happen to your ship if you tried to smuggle illegal drugs and was caught by security?
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
257
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 13:17:29 -
[262] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Maria Daphiti wrote:
It's a real big deal to take someone from outside the family to meet them at the family home to mee the parents and grand parents!
Usually the implication is they are on the way to be becoming part of the family.
Family's pretty important in both the Empire and Republic I guess, even if for different reasons or cultures.
So when are you bringing over a nice man to meet me and your father? Tick tock! You aren't getting any younger. (and don't give me the "I'm a capsuleer line").
And.. this is why i should not post on the IGS. *sulkily* |
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Madhatter's Tea House Arx Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 16:05:41 -
[263] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Someone has claimed that Quafe transports were returning. But does we know if this is true? Our HQ hasn't confirmed these claims. On the other hand, even returning ships could have simply violated orders of border guards. They could simply not mention the fact they were asked to do something. In most cases it is true for incoming ships as well: they are asked first to turn around and only after that they are being shot. Exclusion to this is only military vessels or vessels with known military symbolics: FDU, FedNavy, BlackEagle, FIO, TLF, and so on.
If ships were of not military origin, just Quafe, they definitely should have been asked first to follow a certain order. And you know, if a civilian ship doesn't follow an order from a military unit that is placed in a strategic point, it is just considered an enemy unit in disguise and it is shot down.
Do you remember prior to drug legalization what would happen to your ship if you tried to smuggle illegal drugs and was caught by security? There's unfortunately been precious little to come out since the action. We don't know the process that was (or wasn't) followed on either end; we have a statement of what alludes to a cargo manifest; we do have a flight plan that shows their intended terminus. Beyond that, nothing else.
It's difficult to assume at this point, and even now almost any possibility (rogue actors on either side of the engagement, bad orders on either side, etc.) is valid, until findings begin to come out. |
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1837
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 16:33:17 -
[264] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Someone has claimed that Quafe transports were returning. But does we know if this is true? Our HQ hasn't confirmed these claims. On the other hand, even returning ships could have simply violated orders of border guards. They could simply not mention the fact they were asked to do something. In most cases it is true for incoming ships as well: they are asked first to turn around and only after that they are being shot. Exclusion to this is only military vessels or vessels with known military symbolics: FDU, FedNavy, BlackEagle, FIO, TLF, and so on.
If ships were of not military origin, just Quafe, they definitely should have been asked first to follow a certain order. And you know, if a civilian ship doesn't follow an order from a military unit that is placed in a strategic point, it is just considered an enemy unit in disguise and it is shot down.
Do you remember prior to drug legalization what would happen to your ship if you tried to smuggle illegal drugs and was caught by security?
Even beyond all that, whether they were leaving or entering, the borders closed. Where I come from closed border means just that. Do not try to pass its not allowed. If they showed up and requested authorization and got denied, what did they expect when they ignored orders from a state(or any armed empire ship) official's ship? Claiming there are caldari on board, true or false is a rather horrible attempt at a smear campaign dont ya think? |
Matar Ronin
4229
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 17:33:34 -
[265] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote: Think it's time to hang it up guys you won't make him see reason, Arrendis. And Ronin? Congrats, you're the republics's Diana Kim now. Good luck being taken seriously by anyone regardless of your accomplishments.
Your words about me are empty and groundless accusations, that degrade not me, but your person. Luckily, no here are dumb enough to fall for your delusional lies about me. (Well, maybe except types like Matar Ronin, Arrendis and Saya Ishikari, but these are just special ones). I would kindly ask you to leave the IGS and stop spewing our your hatred and derailing threads, trying to discuss me, and not just discuss, but provoke such sort of discussions by dumping outrageous lies. Just, be gone. You are not a person suitable for civilized conversations. Uh-huh, sure, whatever. (This is intended as a dismissal of your position, not an affirmation.) As a person, you are in fact the lowest form of scum and not with the effort. I'm blocking both you and Ronin from this point forward. At long last the "Periwinkle Princess" is going to stop trolling me! Good things come to he who waits.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3235
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 19:11:10 -
[266] - Quote
Mr. Ronin?
Mr. Toov and I probably disagree about a lot of things, and I kind of suspect he'd kill my ship without hesitation given a chance and look at any deaths among my crew as a bonus rather than anything sad. But ...
He's still someone I pay attention to when he has something to say. Often it's sharp, often it's aggressive to the point of being upsetting, but probably a lot of that is where I stand politically-- that is, beside someone loyal to the Empire ...
But I still want to hear what he has to say, and be heard. That's kind of what "respect" seems to consist of, here, on this forum.
What I'm getting at is, maybe having respected people decide they don't care to hear what you have to say anymore isn't really something to celebrate.
Not that I expect you to listen to me, but it seems worth trying to say it anyway. |
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1617
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 19:28:48 -
[267] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:What I'm getting at is, maybe having respected people decide they don't care to hear what you have to say anymore isn't really something to celebrate. Respectable, dear me, what a word.
Or not, but I suppose it's in the... ear of the beholder.
Personally, I listen to what everyone has to say. Especially if they have contrary opinions, and yes even the crazies. I may disagree or oppose what is said, vociferously, but I still listen. Everyone says something of merit sometimes.
People who only listen when you say something they like, are quite different than respectable.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1838
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 19:41:48 -
[268] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Ronin?
Mr. Toov and I probably disagree about a lot of things, and I kind of suspect he'd kill my ship without hesitation given a chance and look at any deaths among my crew as a bonus rather than anything sad. But ... While I am not speaking for him, as a corp NOT-X PMC looks to ignore SFRIM in general as you aren't an actual combat entity we worry about. Seeing as thats the case and knowing majority of our pilots generally fly in our own sphere, such a thing is highly unlikely. If he is solo thats another story entirely, we do not have a conduct clause or anything required to fly with us. I would honestly say its unlikely though. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3235
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 19:49:12 -
[269] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:What I'm getting at is, maybe having respected people decide they don't care to hear what you have to say anymore isn't really something to celebrate. Respectable, dear me, what a word. Or not, but I suppose it's in the... ear of the beholder. Personally, I listen to what everyone has to say. Especially if they have contrary opinions, and yes even the crazies. I may disagree or oppose what is said, vociferously, but I still listen. Everyone says something of merit sometimes. People who only listen when you say something they like, are quite different than respectable.
I wonder what your point is here, Mr. Syagrius. If you're looking to pick a fight with Mr. Toov, I'll just stand aside and let you get to it....
(I agree that "respectable" is quite a word. I don't think I used it, though-- it's pretty loaded, even compared to, for example, "respected.") |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3237
|
Posted - 2017.04.02 20:05:18 -
[270] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:While I am not speaking for him, as a corp NOT-X PMC looks to ignore SFRIM in general as you aren't an actual combat entity we worry about. Seeing as thats the case and knowing majority of our pilots generally fly in our own sphere, such a thing is highly unlikely. If he is solo thats another story entirely, we do not have a conduct clause or anything required to fly with us. I would honestly say its unlikely though. Okay. Thank you, Ms. Vess. I guess it's been kind of a while since I flew in support of Ms. Daphiti. |
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1620
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 00:28:51 -
[271] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:I wonder what your point is here, Mr. Syagrius. If you're looking to pick a fight with Mr. Toov, I'll just stand aside and let you get to it.... Now now, I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone my dear, if I were you wouldn't have to guess. The term respectable just struck me as funny... considering.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
971
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 00:45:21 -
[272] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Mr. Ronin?
Mr. Toov and I probably disagree about a lot of things, and I kind of suspect he'd kill my ship without hesitation given a chance and look at any deaths among my crew as a bonus rather than anything sad. But ... I don't think about the collateral damage. Even less when it comes down to a choice of your crew or mine.
Aria Jenneth wrote: He's still someone I pay attention to when he has something to say. Often it's sharp, often it's aggressive to the point of being upsetting, but probably a lot of that is where I stand politically-- that is, beside someone loyal to the Empire ...
But I still want to hear what he has to say, and be heard. That's kind of what "respect" seems to consist of, here, on this forum. I appreciate your honesty, and the feeling is mutual.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3239
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 04:15:14 -
[273] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:I wonder what your point is here, Mr. Syagrius. If you're looking to pick a fight with Mr. Toov, I'll just stand aside and let you get to it.... Now now, I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone my dear, if I were you wouldn't have to guess. The term respectable just struck me as funny... considering.
Considering?
Respect is something constructed only slowly, Mr. Syagrius, and lost in seconds for any number of reasons. That might not seem to you like the way it should be, but that is typically how it works. For example, respect for a person's integrity might be lost in a single disingenuous moment, while respect for someone's insight and sound judgment is lost in a moment's folly.
Once I'd have assumed you knew this implicitly. Now....
Obviously I'm still listening to you, Mr. Syagrius. Only, once I'd have watched you as a student watches a teacher. In a sense I do that still, only now I watch you much as I watch anyone: as a person playing a part in this world, and fascinating on that account alone, but not really someone I should expect to learn something really worthwhile from.
It seems that losing my regard might have cut you more than you claimed at the time.
Good.
Maybe you'll show yourself to be a particularly interesting person again. I try to leave that possibility open for anyone. At least one of your apparent companions already has my attention that way.
I kind of doubt it'll happen by you following me around making oblique, significant remarks, "my dear." But it doesn't surprise me if you might think otherwise.
Considering. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3089
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 05:54:52 -
[274] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:The term respectable just struck me as funny... considering.
... that it wasn't anywhere in the post you responded to?
Sorry, Aria, I know you've already chopped down this particular pedan-tree, but I think you might need to pick up a branch and beat him with it. Especially if he's throwing around mildly dismissive diminutive forms of address like 'my dear'. |
Matar Ronin
4283
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 08:37:19 -
[275] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Ronin?
Mr. Toov and I probably disagree about a lot of things, and I kind of suspect he'd kill my ship without hesitation given a chance and look at any deaths among my crew as a bonus rather than anything sad. But ...
He's still someone I pay attention to when he has something to say. Often it's sharp, often it's aggressive to the point of being upsetting, but probably a lot of that is where I stand politically-- that is, beside someone loyal to the Empire ...
But I still want to hear what he has to say, and be heard. That's kind of what "respect" seems to consist of, here, on this forum.
What I'm getting at is, maybe having respected people decide they don't care to hear what you have to say anymore isn't really something to celebrate.
Not that I expect you to listen to me, but it seems worth trying to say it anyway. Of course you are entitled to your own point of view pilot Jenneth but as is all too often true you think your point of view is either correct or valid when in this, as in many cases it is neither.
To date the "Periwinkle Princess" has said nothing of importance to me or about me and has often spoke as if he represents some form of IGS participant credibility board that rules over what should or should not be said or when enough has been said, all the while insulting and comparing me to kim. kim is objectionable because she is an unabashed cowardly racist who lusts after the death of other ethnic groups and or nationalities that she espouses to be better than because of her birth membership in the "State".
Even though I despise the slavery cultists and their many apologist supporters like you, I sincerely want them to change their putrid ways not just line up in front of my rail guns for slaughter as the solution to their sick beliefs.
Being someone who believes passionately in the equality of all human life being constantly and maliciously compared to the antithesis of that belief is something I will not miss from the "Periwinkle Princess".
I of course understand if you do not understand this because from the general impression you leave you crave for the approval of the popular majority above almost everything else while I would rather be right than just popular.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Sheyan Mazaki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 10:58:49 -
[276] - Quote
Well, it was certainly admirable of a select few (including Strike Commander Kim, I'll add) to try to get this thread back onto the actual topic. However, it seems that ego and the endless need of some to have the last word will, unfortunately, drown out most legitimate and mature discussion between parties.
It seems rather shameful of anyone, no matter what their alignment is, to take any part of this Kyonoke Crisis and turn it into a platform for their own chest-beating.
In regards to the actual topic, hopefully there will be knowledge granted soon so that theories based on lack of information (and in some cases personal bias) will instead become facts based on evidence. At the very least, the family of those that perished deserve a better explanation. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3242
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:03:16 -
[277] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Being someone who believes passionately in the equality of all human life being constantly and maliciously compared to the antithesis of that belief is something I will not miss from the "Periwinkle Princess". I of course understand if you do not understand this because from the general impression you leave you crave for the approval of the popular majority above almost everything else while I would rather be right than just popular. No-- most people will object to being compared to someone they perceive as an awful person for one reason or another.
"But I'm nothing like (her/him)!" isn't a very rare sentiment here. You and Ms. Kim are just the most recent example, each outraged at the notion that you might have something in common with the other.
About popular approval ... hm. Well, if I really did crave popular approval above all, I kind of doubt you'd be counting me an apologist for the Amarr. Accepting a role as a servant here, even to someone as well-admired as Lunarisse Aspenstar Daphiti, hasn't been the most popular move.
I can't really claim to be immune to that kind of thing, though. I do like to be liked. It makes talking to people easier, even if they think I'm horribly wrong about almost everything. It's important to me to keep lines of communication open. How else will I know when someone who thinks I'm wrong has a point?
Also, it seems like it's hard to be right all the time. It's hard on a person to even really try, and probably at least as hard on people who, subjectively, succeed, though I guess a lot of those at least have their rightness to comfort them when the whole world's shaking its head or rolling its eyes.
It seems easier to be wise than to reliably be right. That's kind of what I want to be-- wise. Most of all, I want to see clearly.
I'll leave the being right to others. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3242
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:20:57 -
[278] - Quote
Sheyan Mazaki wrote:Well, it was certainly admirable of a select few (including Strike Commander Kim, I'll add) to try to get this thread back onto the actual topic. However, it seems that ego and the endless need of some to have the last word will, unfortunately, drown out most legitimate and mature discussion between parties.
It seems rather shameful of anyone, no matter what their alignment is, to take any part of this Kyonoke Crisis and turn it into a platform for their own chest-beating.
In regards to the actual topic, hopefully there will be knowledge granted soon so that theories based on lack of information (and in some cases personal bias) will instead become facts based on evidence. At the very least, the family of those that perished deserve a better explanation. So ... on the one hand, true. On the other, this incident carries a potent emotional and historical charge.
Like most Caldari, my feeling is that something's wrong with the story so far, that we should withhold judgment and wait for developments. That doesn't seem reasonable to everyone, though.
Absent more news, I'm not sure what more there was to say on this topic. Conversations drift, solemn occasion or not. Sometimes they drift into a fight. This one never had very far to go to arrive at such a place. In a way it doesn't make me so sad for it to be about personalities and egos rather than national stereotypes, bitter recriminations, and rumors of war. |
Sheyan Mazaki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:51:42 -
[279] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Like most Caldari, my feeling is that something's wrong with the story so far, that we should withhold judgment and wait for developments.
Agreed.
Aria Jenneth wrote:Absent more news, I'm not sure what more there was to say on this topic.
Precisely. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
848
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 11:55:58 -
[280] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Like most Caldari, my feeling is that something's wrong with the story so far, that we should withhold judgment and wait for developments.
Oh, and here I thought I saw most Caldari in this thread ready to blame this on some crackpot "Federation did this" conspiracy plot from the get go. |
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3133
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 12:02:19 -
[281] - Quote
Sheyan Mazaki wrote: In regards to the actual topic, hopefully there will be knowledge granted soon so that theories based on lack of information (and in some cases personal bias) will instead become facts based on evidence. At the very least, the family of those that perished deserve a better explanation.
In the lack of the facts I make my conclusions based on my knowledge of standard engagement procedures. Moreover, assumptions can be made based on the source unverifiable information comes from: the Quafe.
Gallente have been known on quite a few occasions to bend the fact and tell us things that didn't happen, or counterwise, tell us things didn't happen when then have actually happened. For example, certain gallente provocateurs, even on this exact forum, were claiming that Gallente weren't startving, torturing and blowing up Caldari prisoners of war. But on other hand, every capsuleer have means and ability to go to Black Rise, find these hidden Federal facilities, and even help people escape them and see with their own eyes consequences of starvation, beating and tortures that gallente jailmasters were giving to Caldari.
And with all these facts, certain individuals were openly claiming that it was just alleged.
Now you can see, that Quafe could have done exactly the same. Unlike this situation with prisoners, where we can go there ourselves and see that gallente were lying but Caldari weren't, I don't see in this situation how we can verify Quafe words.
It means, that with very high probability there were not a single Caldari on their board and that they were trying to enter Caldari space, not leave it.
While there will be no evidences that we could check with our own eyes, or until Caldari officials will make a statement, I myself will consider Quafe propaganda to be nothing but another gallentean lie. And I hope I've convinced you to believe it as well.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Sheyan Mazaki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 12:21:12 -
[282] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:While there will be no evidences that we could check with our own eyes, or until Caldari officials will make a statement, I myself will consider Quafe propaganda to be nothing but another gallentean lie. And I hope I've convinced you to believe it as well.
Apologies, but you haven't. Until evidence on this particular event is shared and/or more information is brought to light, I agree with others including Miss Jenneth that judgement should be withheld. On all fronts. Assumptions and speculations will only lead to further conflict and distractions from ending this crisis once and for all. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7354
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 14:45:29 -
[283] - Quote
I would point out that we are fifteen noisy and futile pages into what can only be generously described as a conversation. So much speculation and so much outrage - and no new information.
Perhaps now is that time to admit that without more actual data, there's little point in continuing this. Most of you had made up your minds already and only new information could change 'em.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Matar Ronin
4297
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 18:35:39 -
[284] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Being someone who believes passionately in the equality of all human life being constantly and maliciously compared to the antithesis of that belief is something I will not miss from the "Periwinkle Princess". I of course understand if you do not understand this because from the general impression you leave you crave for the approval of the popular majority above almost everything else while I would rather be right than just popular. No-- most people will object to being compared to someone they perceive as an awful person for one reason or another. "But I'm nothing like (her/him)!" isn't a very rare sentiment here. You and Ms. Kim are just the most recent example, each outraged at the notion that you might have something in common with the other. About popular approval ... hm. Well, if I really did crave popular approval above all, I kind of doubt you'd be counting me an apologist for the Amarr. Accepting a role as a servant here, even to someone as well-admired as Lunarisse Aspenstar Daphiti, hasn't been the most popular move. I can't really claim to be immune to that kind of thing, though. I do like to be liked. It makes talking to people easier, even if they think I'm horribly wrong about almost everything. It's important to me to keep lines of communication open. How else will I know when someone who thinks I'm wrong has a point? Also, it seems like it's hard to be right all the time. It's hard on a person to even really try, and probably at least as hard on people who, subjectively, succeed, though I guess a lot of those at least have their rightness to comfort them when the whole world's shaking its head or rolling its eyes. It seems easier to be wise than to reliably be right. That's kind of what I want to be-- wise. Most of all, I want to see clearly. I'll leave the being right to others. To be clear my desire to be right over being popular is not a statement that I even for a moment think I am always right. Unfortunately that is not even humanly possible.
However the need to be popular drives people to say things like how talking about other things beyond the scope of the original thread is de-railing. Scroll back and review how many seem to be setting their hair on fire about a thread for which their is no new data just the bare bone description of the original event available. Conversation like nature abhors a vacuum.
On the subject of wisdom you might consider if it is truly wise to keep the lines of communication open with so many whom enthusiastically embrace racism and the beyond evil practice of human slavery. These types of crimes against humanity will continue until the decent and morally civilized people of the New Eden Cluster put enough military and economic pressure on them to force them to change, it will not happen over tea and scones alone. Making their lives pleasant and enjoyable with polite conversation just extends the horror of slavery for the victims of their inhumane cult. Something if you were subjected to you would not desire to continue endlessly. I think you might find it wise to think about the uncountable millions of your fellow human beings who suffer at the hands of the cult supported by the people you like to be liked by.
It might cause you to change your ways and support the morally civilized segments of the New Eden Cluster that fight actively against the evil of human slavery.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3138
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 20:38:06 -
[285] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I would point out that we are fifteen noisy and futile pages into what can only be generously described as a conversation. So much speculation and so much outrage - and no new information.
Perhaps now is that time to admit that without more actual data, there's little point in continuing this. Most of you had made up your minds already and only new information could change 'em.
Sheyan Mazaki wrote: Apologies, but you haven't. Until evidence on this particular event is shared and/or more information is brought to light, I agree with others including Miss Jenneth that judgement should be withheld. On all fronts. Assumptions and speculations will only lead to further conflict and distractions from ending this crisis once and for all.
I am actually agree with both of you, and looks like this discussion came to conclusion (well, besides this little raging tribalGäó who is again at his thing). I would really myself love to hear what our HQ will tell about this incident, but while they don't - I just believe that our guys did everything professionally according to the protocol and Quafe just stirs lies and propaganda.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3243
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 22:17:28 -
[286] - Quote
Mr. Ronin, I don't join the Amarr for tea and crumpets because I want them to like me, but because I want to represent the Praefecta well and not cause trouble for her (and, I like the Amarr) (actually I like almost everybody. I'm a little indiscriminate about that, I guess).
To me, basically everything is personal. Kindnesses and cruelties loom larger than abstractions, even if I know those abstractions have lots of real, concrete faces. And there's someone I owe a little more than I owe to your moral crusade.
I'm aware that makes me "the enemy," as Ms. Rhiannon puts it. I'm kind of okay with that, although it makes me a little sad. |
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1633
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 23:35:17 -
[287] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:I wonder what your point is here, Mr. Syagrius. If you're looking to pick a fight with Mr. Toov, I'll just stand aside and let you get to it.... Now now, I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone my dear, if I were you wouldn't have to guess. The term respectable just struck me as funny... considering. Considering? Respect is something constructed only slowly, Mr. Syagrius, and lost in seconds for any number of reasons. That might not seem to you like the way it should be, but that is typically how it works. For example, respect for a person's integrity might be lost in a single disingenuous moment, while respect for someone's insight and sound judgment is lost in a moment's awful folly. Once I'd have assumed you knew this implicitly. Now.... Obviously I'm still listening to you, Mr. Syagrius. Only, once I'd have watched you as a student watches a teacher. Now I watch you much as I watch anyone: as a person playing a part in this world, and fascinating on that account alone, but not really someone I should expect to learn something really worthwhile from. It seems that losing my regard might have cut you more than you claimed at the time. Good. Maybe you'll show yourself to be a particularly interesting person again. I try to leave that possibility open for anyone. At least one of your apparent companions already has my attention that way. I kind of doubt it'll happen by you following me around making oblique, significant remarks, though, "my dear." But it doesn't surprise me if you might think otherwise. Considering. Dear me I seem to have struck a nerve. My pardon indeed, I would normally say my dear, but apparently, that offends you. ItGÇÖs a paternal instinct which usually means I like someone, even if on the sly, but you do seem well beyond such trivial human concerns.
It does upset me that you once regarded me so highly. I had no idea. But since we are being honest I will let you in on a little secret. I use words to gain effect, sometimes I tell the truth, sometimes I lie and sometimes I do both at the same time. Words you see are tools, like wealth or ships, some few can tell the difference.
But you, howeverGǪ see I almost said my dear again, do seem to think a lot of yourself. As I am unchanged, I can only assume your perception of me before was flawed. But fear not, I wonGÇÖt think less of you for it, after all you are entitled to your opinion. I only hope that you are an honest enough person to hold yourself to the same high standard as you do everyone else.
Like you I always listen, so please feel free to reply, I know how you like to have the last word. But for my part, our conversation is overGǪ. See I almost said it again....
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
James Syagrius
Humble Trader Company
1633
|
Posted - 2017.04.03 23:36:51 -
[288] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I would point out that we are fifteen noisy and futile pages into what can only be generously described as a conversation. So much speculation and so much outrage - and no new information.
Perhaps now is that time to admit that without more actual data, there's little point in continuing this. Most of you had made up your minds already and only new information could change 'em. True enough, until more is known I will keep my peace.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3244
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 00:44:59 -
[289] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Dear me I seem to have struck a nerve....
Actually you just kind of irritated me.
Quote:But you, howeverGǪ see I almost said my dear again, do seem to think a lot of yourself.
Now, that's a nerve you're poking at. Arrogance is about as close a thing to evil as I believe in, and I do have a capacity for arrogance. The flaw I most despise in others is, maybe inevitably, the one I most despise in myself. It's a criticism I tend to be sensitive to as a result.
Only, your power to hurt me with it is limited. Pieter can use it, and the Praefecta, obviously. It'd be kind of devastating from either. Actually any random person can probably hurt me that way, at least a little. But you, sir? Not so much.
One other person who can't hurt me this way is the being formerly known as Veikitamo Gesakaarin, who I recently learned was not only my senior at PY-RE, but actually its founder. Veiki's history is a history of masks, and awful things said and done to maintain them. It got so it was impossible to tell which was the real Veik.
And then of course it turned out the answer was, none of them. Now the man behind all those masks tells me he was just playing a part, that I shouldn't think of him the same way-- as though he hadn't, through her, killed gratuitously for the sake of appearing a gratuitous killer. As though it were apparent that he wears no mask, now, or that anything about him could be trusted beyond a confirmed capacity for murder for appearances' sake.
I try not to trust tricksters, Mr. Syagrius, or empower them to hurt me with words. That goes even for the ones whose judgment I don't have reason to doubt.
It's good to see you talking constructively with Pieter. I hope that continues.
Be well. |
Matar Ronin
4325
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 05:33:13 -
[290] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mr. Ronin, I don't join the Amarr for tea and crumpets because I want them to like me, but because I want to represent the Praefecta well and not cause trouble for her (and, I like the Amarr) (actually I like almost everybody. I'm a little indiscriminate about that, I guess).
To me, basically everything is personal. Kindnesses and cruelties loom larger than abstractions, even if I know those abstractions have lots of real, concrete faces. And there's someone I owe a little more than I owe to your moral crusade.
I'm aware that makes me "the enemy," as Ms. Rhiannon puts it. I'm kind of okay with that, although it makes me a little sad. These are indeed interesting times when the person on the civilized moral crusade is the pariah for standing up for universal human rights and freedom from inhumane slavery.
You might think you owe nothing to my moral crusade but that is only because the horror you do choose to discriminate away from your pleasant reality does not affect you directly, yet. Sadly if it ever does it will be far too late for you to do anything about it.
Fortunately for selfish people like you, people like me, continue to hammer at the walls of the evil slavery cult in the hope of shrinking it's domain instead of supporting it so it can one day overwhelm the entire cluster as they openly desire. So pilot Jenneth continue to frolic on in your self indulgent callous hallucination knowing that even your freedom is worth protecting to foolish crusaders like me.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
258
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 06:54:39 -
[291] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:These are indeed interesting times when the person on the civilized moral crusade is the pariah for standing up for universal human rights and freedom from inhumane slavery.
You're a pariah cause of the prior zillion ranting posts on this thread and a buncha others on the IGS at anyone an' everyone who disagrees with ya on the duel obsession with Pilot Kim
Now you're changing the subject. |
Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2127
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 07:20:50 -
[292] - Quote
Seconded Maria. Stop ranting so much on the IGS and go mingle with your fellow Matari. Maybe go take in the sights and sounds of the Great Caravanserai's bazaar, hike at the Tronhadar Valley, experience the bitter cold of Mikramurka, visit your ancestral homes or your clan enclave, etc.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3247
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 09:38:01 -
[293] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:These are indeed interesting times when the person on the civilized moral crusade is the pariah for standing up for universal human rights and freedom from inhumane slavery.
You might think you owe nothing to my moral crusade but that is only because the horror you do choose to discriminate away from your pleasant reality does not affect you directly, yet. Sadly if it ever does it will be far too late for you to do anything about it.
Fortunately for selfish people like you, people like me, continue to hammer at the walls of the evil slavery cult in the hope of shrinking it's domain instead of supporting it so it can one day overwhelm the entire cluster as they openly desire. So pilot Jenneth continue to frolic on in your self indulgent callous hallucination knowing that even your freedom is worth protecting to foolish crusaders like me. Mr. Ronin, I could owe your moral crusade a lot without it outweighing my private debt.
You seem like a person who can probably understand the weight of the words, "blood oath." That's what I took, entering the Praefecta's service. It's not something I did on a casual whim, either. Twice, she took me in: once as a lost child; once as a wounded Falcon, dripping blood and soot. She took me in, helped me find my way-- helped me heal. She didn't have to do that, either time.
Even if I understand your feelings, even if I sympathize, this private debt is more important to me. If that makes me a selfish person, I'll accept that. If it means being "the enemy" of people I have no reason to despise, I'll accept that, too. If it means dying, or killing, for a cause I owe only vicarious loyalty to, it's only what I've promised to do.
To be aide, agent, and servant to someone I owe a debt I can't ever repay-- that's my self-indulgent callous hallucination.
Maybe that's all it is, a figment wrapped in pride. But it's my part to play in this world, and I'll play it with all my heart.
Let my soul be burned away to dust and ash, if it is for her sake. That is what I owe. |
Matar Ronin
4361
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:10:14 -
[294] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:These are indeed interesting times when the person on the civilized moral crusade is the pariah for standing up for universal human rights and freedom from inhumane slavery.
You're a pariah cause of the prior zillion ranting posts on this thread and a buncha others on the IGS at anyone an' everyone who disagrees with ya on the duel obsession with Pilot Kim Now you're changing the subject. P. Phony I. Ignorant E. Excrement Pretty much explains your value but thanks for your input.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1015
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:13:04 -
[295] - Quote
Why do I still frequent this place? Do I hate myself? Is it a form of self-harm?
I should have a doctor scoop out my other eyeball.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3250
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:19:12 -
[296] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:Why do I still frequent this place? Do I hate myself? Is it a form of self-harm?
I should have a doctor scoop out my other eyeball. Well ... it's not like nothing worthwhile ever gets said, my lord. There might be bits you'fre better off just skimming, if not skipping, though. |
Tsao Aubbes
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
74
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:20:50 -
[297] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:Why do I still frequent this place? Do I hate myself? Is it a form of self-harm?
I should have a doctor scoop out my other eyeball. Oh, I'm not sure thay's a good idea, Mr. Ibrahin, I'm sure there's people who'd miss you if you left.
No Longer a Drone Region Resident
|
Matar Ronin
4361
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:31:52 -
[298] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:These are indeed interesting times when the person on the civilized moral crusade is the pariah for standing up for universal human rights and freedom from inhumane slavery.
You might think you owe nothing to my moral crusade but that is only because the horror you do choose to discriminate away from your pleasant reality does not affect you directly, yet. Sadly if it ever does it will be far too late for you to do anything about it.
Fortunately for selfish people like you, people like me, continue to hammer at the walls of the evil slavery cult in the hope of shrinking it's domain instead of supporting it so it can one day overwhelm the entire cluster as they openly desire. So pilot Jenneth continue to frolic on in your self indulgent callous hallucination knowing that even your freedom is worth protecting to foolish crusaders like me. Mr. Ronin, I could owe your moral crusade a lot without it outweighing my private debt. You seem like a person who can probably understand the weight of the words, "blood oath." That's what I took, entering the Praefecta's service. It's not something I did on a casual whim, either. Twice, she took me in: once as a lost child; once as a wounded Falcon, dripping blood and soot. She took me in, helped me find my way-- helped me heal. She didn't have to do that, either time. Even if I understand your feelings, even if I sympathize, this private debt is more important to me. If that makes me a selfish person, I'll accept that. If it means being "the enemy" of people I have no reason to despise, I'll accept that, too. If it means dying, or killing, for a cause I owe only vicarious loyalty to, it's only what I've promised to do. To be aide, agent, and servant to someone I owe a debt I can't ever repay-- that's my self-indulgent callous hallucination. Maybe that's all it is, a figment wrapped in pride. But it's my part to play in this world, and I'll play it with all my heart. Let my soul be burned away to dust and ash, if it is for her sake. That is what I owe. Agree with you or not you do have a gift with the written word, poetic and personal.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1963
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:52:14 -
[299] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:P. Phony I. Ignorant E. Excrement Pretty much explains your value but thanks for your input. Hey.
Hey Matar.
My daughter wants you to know something.
She says you're a poopy face.
Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Lord Consort of House Sarum
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1842
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 18:55:50 -
[300] - Quote
PIE, Permanently In Empire |
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1512
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 19:02:18 -
[301] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:P. Phony I. Ignorant E. Excrement Pretty much explains your value but thanks for your input. Hey. Hey Matar. My daughter wants you to know something. She says you're a poopy face.
And still more eloquent than the target. |
Matar Ronin
4369
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 19:07:44 -
[302] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:P. Phony I. Ignorant E. Excrement Pretty much explains your value but thanks for your input. Hey. Hey Matar. My daughter wants you to know something. She says you're a poopy face. aldrith is the progeny of a P.I.E. a cupcake, a pastry, or a donut?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2361
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 19:13:47 -
[303] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:Why do I still frequent this place? Do I hate myself? Is it a form of self-harm?
I should have a doctor scoop out my other eyeball. I can recommend a good counselor, if you want. Look up Candi at the pole position in Callie and ask for the special counseling session.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3251
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 20:14:56 -
[304] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Agree with you or not you do have a gift with the written word, poetic and personal.
Thank you, Mr. Ronin. That means kind of a lot from you. It would maybe mean even a little more if that hadn't been Praefecta Daphiti's daughter you just dismissed as "excrement."
You've met the Praefecta, as well, if you weren't already aware. You thanked her for her account of Teacher's duel with Ms. Kim. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7371
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 20:20:54 -
[305] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:Why do I still frequent this place? Do I hate myself? Is it a form of self-harm?
I should have a doctor scoop out my other eyeball. I can recommend a good counselor, if you want. Look up Candi at the pole position in Callie and ask for the special counseling session.
Oh Winds. The shoreleave special. Make sure everyone's shots are up to date.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1018
|
Posted - 2017.04.04 20:43:42 -
[306] - Quote
Kyonoke suddenly seems far less menacing.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
|
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
The Scope Gallente Federation
422
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 14:25:58 -
[307] - Quote
I swear that I will go through this thread and report every single off-topic post until either they're deleted, or I'm banned.
I swear.
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Tsao Aubbes
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
74
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 14:28:50 -
[308] - Quote
..I mean, there's only so much you can discuss about one news article, Sir. So off topic discussion is going to start eventually once the topic has been talked about enough and people get bored of it. Or at least I think..
No Longer a Drone Region Resident
|
Maria Daphiti
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
267
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 15:18:52 -
[309] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:I swear that I will go through this thread and report every single off-topic post until either they're deleted, or I'm banned.
I swear.
Please don't be mean Charles. By this point who can even tell what the original topic is? |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
974
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 18:22:24 -
[310] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:I swear that I will go through this thread and report every single off-topic post until either they're deleted, or I'm banned.
I swear. Please don't be mean Charles. By this point who can even tell what the original topic is? Something about a Quafe convoy running afoul of a Caldari border patrol.... I think.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7375
|
Posted - 2017.04.06 19:19:51 -
[311] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Maria Daphiti wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:I swear that I will go through this thread and report every single off-topic post until either they're deleted, or I'm banned.
I swear. Please don't be mean Charles. By this point who can even tell what the original topic is? Something about a Quafe convoy running afoul of a Caldari border patrol.... I think.
That's crazy, Tyrel. Someone's gonna get hulled doing that!
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
253
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 13:46:44 -
[312] - Quote
Maria Daphiti wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:I swear that I will go through this thread and report every single off-topic post until either they're deleted, or I'm banned.
I swear. Please don't be mean Charles. By this point who can even tell what the original topic is? I can! And I assure you that Mr. Schmidt's reply was an outraging off-topic post!
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1650
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 03:08:08 -
[313] - Quote
Despite all the witty repartee, we still havenGÇÖt been given a justifiable rationale for the necessity of killing over four thousand people in people in nonmilitary vessels by a State Navy.
While perhaps an insignificant occurrence in the deep dark where might alone makes right.
Many of us would like to know simply why?
Or shall we just scribble this down as another GÇÿperclivity of State honorGÇÖ?
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
976
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 04:11:03 -
[314] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Despite all the witty repartee, we still havenGÇÖt been given a justifiable rationale for the necessity of killing over four thousand people in people in nonmilitary vessels by a State Navy.
Maybe the state doesn't feel like it needs to justify itself to the nigh immortal demigods that roam around space killing hundreds of thousands more people then this on the daily... we do kinda set a bad example for this kind of thing.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1651
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 04:29:07 -
[315] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Maybe the state doesn't feel like it needs to justify itself to the nigh immortal demigods that roam around space killing hundreds of thousands more people then this on the daily... we do kinda set a bad example for this kind of thing. Actually, they do, and I would invite you to speak for yourself.
I am not a demigod, nor am I immortal, practically perhaps, but immortal, no.
I think you misread that warranty they gave you when you became a 'Capsuleer'.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
977
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 09:24:38 -
[316] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Actually, they do Actually, they don't. If they owe anyone an explanation, it's Quafe. Of which you are not an employee, and therefore are owed nothing. Asking is one thing, but demanding where you have no authority is just arrogant.
James Syagrius wrote: and I would invite you to speak for yourself. Keep the invitation, you need it more then I do.
James Syagrius wrote: I am not a demigod, nor am I immortal, practically perhaps, but immortal, no. Hence the word nigh in there. Meaning near, almost, not quite but close.... I'm sure you get the idea.
James Syagrius wrote: I think you misread that warranty they gave you when you became a 'Capsuleer'.
I was supposed to read that?!
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
2062
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 09:39:16 -
[317] - Quote
Quafe may be a Gallente corporation in origin, but those employees were State citizens, legally employed by Quafe's legal State subsidiary corporation, which holds significant corporate standing there.
So, there is still some question as to how appropriate the Navy response here was.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
978
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 09:57:11 -
[318] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Quafe may be a Gallente corporation in origin, but those employees were State citizens, legally employed by Quafe's legal State subsidiary corporation, which holds significant corporate standing there.
So, there is still some question as to how appropriate the Navy response here was. From where I sit, it was a bit over kill. But without all the details (that we aren't going to get most likely) that's just speculation. For all we know they could've been Caldari extremists on those freighters, hauling high explosives into Federation space to carry out terrorist attacks on the Gallente. Or there could have been federal agents on board that the Caldari felt couldn't be allowed to escape. Or maybe the FC just got an itchy trigger finger. The possibilities are endless. The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
428
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 11:02:02 -
[319] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question. We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know. |
TomHorn
Kresh Leaves
297
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 11:21:29 -
[320] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question. We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know.
Stand down Ramal .
|
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3148
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 12:12:25 -
[321] - Quote
Such information is usually available on a need to know basis. If you don't have access to it, it means you don't need to know.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
AlexanderFranklinJames Horn
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 14:19:33 -
[322] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question. We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know. Stand down Ramal .
Lets...let the dead , rest in peace.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
981
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 19:05:48 -
[323] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question. We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know. Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1654
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 22:00:45 -
[324] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better.
Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it.
Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
981
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 22:46:49 -
[325] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. So the Caldari military didn't shoot Quafe ships full of Caldari citizens? I must have misread somewhere then.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Oland Jan
Antumbra
9
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 23:07:36 -
[326] - Quote
I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
981
|
Posted - 2017.04.09 23:42:46 -
[327] - Quote
Oland Jan wrote:I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why. No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
428
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 01:53:55 -
[328] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Oland Jan wrote:I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why. No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer. Disagreed. |
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
981
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 01:59:50 -
[329] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Oland Jan wrote:I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why. No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer. Disagreed. Why's that?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7379
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 16:59:46 -
[330] - Quote
Because certain cultures in the cluster think that they are owed an explanation by everyone for anything.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1543
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 17:47:43 -
[331] - Quote
I think you misunderstand taking advantage of their freedom to speak, question and raise concerns with thinking they're owed actual answers, although I'm sure some people do actually think that.
It's pretty simple. When unpalatable events occur and there's suspicion of foul play, some people don't blindly shut their brains off and go with whatever the powers that be blurf out publicly and instead ask questions or make statements of their own. Neither of these things are owed any kind of response, but it's very often telling what does get a response, what does not get a response and the nature of said response.
When I question something, it's rarely because I expect to get an actual answer. Most entities in New Eden are incurably dishonest and malicious so most responses aren't particularly trustworthy to begin with, but it's almost always useful to see where things get stonewalled and where there's endless deflection, hemming, hawing or inconsistencies. In some few cases, you may even get an honest answer, but even when you don't there's much to learn.
And sometimes, most importantly, it's simply a matter of getting the question out there. We have a massive audience on these boards, and if a few of them go "heeeey yeah! What about this or that and so on?!" the important objective has already been achieved.
When there's no explanations or answers to critical questioning, it's a tell-tale sign of misconduct. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3289
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 18:18:19 -
[332] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Most entities in New Eden are incurably dishonest and malicious....
This, this, right here, is why I tend not to listen to you about political stuff, Miz. You seem to see the world largely in black and white-- mostly inky black. My own experience has more suggested an abundance of apes (humans: never not animals) and a shortage of both heroes and villains. People are capable of awful things and wonderful things, but either way, they're still just people.
I don't think that'd probably change, even if I'd seen everything you have; even my predecessor didn't see things in such an awful way. Fundamentally, it's like we occupy different worlds. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1544
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 18:45:33 -
[333] - Quote
You seem to think my statement is somehow 'inky black' or 'villanous'. They're strong words, sure, but gather together any random selection of human beings and start gauging their honesty, selfishness and so on. Are you willing to wager on what the majority will qualify as?
Now throw institutional selfishness and greed into the picture and you have pretty much any entity of relevance in New Eden.
Think they come out any better than the random selection?
People are just people indeed, and individually none of them are heroes, villains, truly righteous or truly evil. This doesn't change that as a species we're tribal, we're 'us vs them', we're hard-wired for self-preservation at the expense of others if necessary and equally hard-wired not to be able to truly empathize with any significant amount of other people. This isn't evil, this isn't villainous or any of the sort.
... but it does mean that entities in New Eden that aren't incurably dishonest and malicious are truly few and far between.
Nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't mean the big picture doesn't remain rather ugly. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3289
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 19:05:00 -
[334] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:You seem to think my statement is somehow 'inky black' or 'villanous'. They're strong words, sure, but gather together any random selection of human beings and start gauging their honesty, selfishness and so on. Are you willing to wager on what the majority will qualify as?
Now throw institutional selfishness and greed into the picture and you have pretty much any entity of relevance in New Eden.
Think they come out any better than the random selection?
People are just people indeed, and individually none of them are heroes, villains, truly righteous or truly evil. This doesn't change that as a species we're tribal, we're 'us vs them', we're hard-wired for self-preservation at the expense of others if necessary and equally hard-wired not to be able to truly empathize with any significant amount of other people. This isn't evil, this isn't villainous or any of the sort.
... but it does mean that entities in New Eden that aren't incurably dishonest and malicious are truly few and far between.
Nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't mean the big picture doesn't remain rather ugly.
Malice, noun. The intention or desire to do evil; ill will. Desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness. Desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another.
Malicious, adjective. Characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm.
I'm sure I can find a few more definitions, but, basically, malice isn't a passive thing like apathy, or as indirectly harmful as selfishness and greed; it's an active will to cause harm.
Funnily, though, I think you said exactly what you meant: you might not consciously think that almost everybody is actually seeking to harm people you care about, Miz, but you pretty consistently act like you think exactly that. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1545
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 19:28:28 -
[335] - Quote
I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people - intentionally or otherwise, it turns out they were.
Every.
Time.
This is not hyperbole. This isn't pessimism, misanthropy or paranoia. It's documented history. You can try to dismiss my views and stance on things with your shade, but this is just how it is. Trusting my people's safety to actual avowed enemies is probably the dumbest possible thing anyone can do, by both logic and proven history.
This may not play into your agenda or naivete, but that's just how it is. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3289
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 19:34:38 -
[336] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people - intentionally or otherwise, it turns out they were.
Every.
Time.
This is not hyperbole. This isn't pessimism, misanthropy or paranoia. It's documented history. You can try to dismiss my views and stance on things with your shade, but this is just how it is. Trusting my people's safety to actual avowed enemies is probably the dumbest possible thing anyone can do, by both logic and proven history.
This may not play into your agenda or naivete, but that's just how it is.
You are mistaken about this, but there's no way I can convince you of that. You act like you have proof-- and maybe you think you do-- but mostly what you have is a bunch of stuff you decided was suspicious. Your honesty is more than made up for by your paranoia.
And that, Miz, is why I don't trust your perceptions at all. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1545
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:08:47 -
[337] - Quote
Your powers of mind reading are impressive if you know who I've assumed are threats and who I haven't, which is the only way you could tell if I'm mistaken or not. Trust me, my experiences with SFRIM getting in the way of the well-being of my people are far too recent history to be part of what I've been talking about right here. It should have been readily apparent that I never had any trust in that regard, for good reason and rather vindicated on that as it turned out.
That you find issue with why I don't trust SFRIM at all anymore is equal parts tragic and funny, since I know you were once capable of seeing the perspective of others. It shouldn't be difficult to see why someone's leery about avowed enemies of my people repeatedly keeping innocents away from their kin, and once even away from proper medical aid for days when it could have been done in minutes. Out of spite.
I genuinely don't care if you trust my 'perceptions'. I am disappointed by you dismissing the objective facts in favor of your emotional attachment to your leash holder.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7379
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:13:59 -
[338] - Quote
I mean, I need to say at this point that groups are inherently incapable of selfish motivations AS a group. Only individuals can be selfish - what looks like a selfish group is simply a group that is prioritising successful outcomes for its members at the expense of those it considers to be outliers.
Where I come from, we consider those groups to be successful.
There's a big difference, in my estimation, between groups acting in the interests of their members and people being selfish to a vulnerable individual.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3291
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:16:46 -
[339] - Quote
Your disappointment is, to me, in line with your other political opinions, Miz.
Warped. Unreliable. Worthless.
Dust.
It doesn't make you wrong, mind. It's more that your opinion is without weight.
That's actually a little remarkable. So, I maybe should apologize for coming back to it again; it's just that finding that I actually am totally disregarding someone's opinion, it's unusual enough that I kind of end up dwelling on why.
Because Arrendis is of course correct: it does mean devaluing your experience. I need to be careful. |
Syenna Celeste
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
52
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:22:15 -
[340] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people...
"My people". These are two words that you say a lot and like every over used phrase you can only repeat it so many times before it loses all meaning to anybody still listening. Who are your people, Mizhara? Who are these poor, defenseless innocents that you claim to protect? Are you protecting them from your cushy seat in MC? Are you somehow better placed now to judge those in less noble professions than outright piracy?
You spent so long trying to protect your "people" from the likes of me, and you failed utterly. And yet you're still here claiming to fight the good fight with words and a complete lack of action. Put your ISK where your mouth is, if only so the next time we slap your filthy, tattoo spoiled face we might have some of it fall out.
Apologies to the rest of the thread trying to tie up this diplomatic spat. I hope you'll be able to reach an amicable resolution now the plague has been dealt with.
Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.
|
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1545
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:38:57 -
[341] - Quote
Syenna Celeste wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people... "My people". These are two words that you say a lot and like every over used phrase you can only repeat it so many times before it loses all meaning to anybody still listening. Who are your people, Mizhara? Who are these poor, defenseless innocents that you claim to protect? Are you protecting them from your cushy seat in MC? Are you somehow better placed now to judge those in less noble professions than outright piracy? You spent so long trying to protect your "people" from the likes of me, and you failed utterly. And yet you're still here claiming to fight the good fight with words and a complete lack of action. Put your ISK where your mouth is, if only so the next time we slap your filthy, tattoo spoiled face we might have some of it fall out.
As if you were ever a threat to my people. For that matter, as if you ever posed a threat to me. The Pendulum Wars were bloodsport with a scoreboard and you know it.
If you want to come 'slap my filthy tattoo spoiled face', I suppose that'll have to wait until the day you grow the fortitude required to fight someone a tad less vulnerable than humanitarian organizations or the Pendulum War participants. Or you know, you can always go for the assets already anchored and vulnerable. I promise they aren't cowering behind the safety of w-space chains in some spooky space system.
As for lack of action or ISK spent, I don't think you've been paying much attention.
@Aria: Deflecting with that looks an awful lot like not having an answer. |
Syenna Celeste
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
52
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:42:54 -
[342] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Syenna Celeste wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people... "My people". These are two words that you say a lot and like every over used phrase you can only repeat it so many times before it loses all meaning to anybody still listening. Who are your people, Mizhara? Who are these poor, defenseless innocents that you claim to protect? Are you protecting them from your cushy seat in MC? Are you somehow better placed now to judge those in less noble professions than outright piracy? You spent so long trying to protect your "people" from the likes of me, and you failed utterly. And yet you're still here claiming to fight the good fight with words and a complete lack of action. Put your ISK where your mouth is, if only so the next time we slap your filthy, tattoo spoiled face we might have some of it fall out. ', I suppose that'll have to wait until the day you grow the fortitude required to fight someone a tad less vulnerable than humanitarian organizations or the Pendulum War participants.
Someone hasn't been paying attention.
Now answer the question, who are your people? The Matari you abandoned or the pirates and thugs you serve only to hide behind?
Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1546
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 20:48:05 -
[343] - Quote
Point out any of my people within my reach I have abandoned and I'll pay you every ISK I own and transfer the Hel as well. As for my status as a Mercenary, you really haven't been paying much attention if that's the worst you can use against me. I've done far worse than that, many a time.
My reputation and status has never been one of neither honor nor high regard. |
Syenna Celeste
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
54
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 21:07:12 -
[344] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Point out any of my people within my reach I have abandoned and I'll pay you every ISK I own and transfer the Hel as well.
There you go. "My people" again. You still haven't told me who you're fighting for in YC119. Do you even know anymore?
Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3292
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 21:24:47 -
[345] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:@Aria: Deflecting with that looks an awful lot like not having an answer.
I'm not sure what answer I'd give that you'd recognize as a valid rebuttal, Miz. After all, you don't trust my perceptions, either. To you, I'm either criminally naive, pushing an agenda (IE, trafficking in lies and distortions), or both.
Both might be a little true, sometimes. I'm someone's agent, after all, and I don't make a fetish out of honesty the way you do. Personal integrity's important to me, though. That's not a simple thing like always being honest, but, I think, if I don't want to be a harmful person, it's maybe a better goal.
That's what I believe, anyway. I don't much expect you to agree. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1547
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 21:37:18 -
[346] - Quote
Is that truly so hard a thing to understand intuitively? The concept shouldn't be alien to you even given your chosen path. My clan. My tribe. The men, women and children enduring what I did from birth. Those who are family through blood, deed or love. Every bloodline and people named in the Accords and those who have come since. The person next to me. The person on the other side of New Eden, fighting for my enemies. The faithful, the betrayed, the free and the enslaved.
'My people' means a thousand different things to different people and even to one person depending on the context. No different for us than it does for those of different cultures and nationalities.
As for fighting for them, that has been a lament for some time. There's no capsuleer targets to fight, and we've been - as I'm growing vexed at repeating - surgically excised from being able to legally affect these things among baseliners.
@Aria, I don't need to 'trust your perceptions' or agree with them. I just idly wonder if you have any that you yourself consider valid, because when you deflect rather than respond, it looks a lot like you do not and I hope I'm wrong about that. |
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 21:57:52 -
[347] - Quote
Syenna Celeste wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Point out any of my people within my reach I have abandoned and I'll pay you every ISK I own and transfer the Hel as well. There you go. "My people" again. You still haven't told me who you're fighting for in YC119. Do you even know anymore?
She'd told you but you don't seem to understand the concept. Her people are her own. She protects who she can. It doesn't matter where she or any of us is or are.
I don't agree with Mizhara on many things and I'd say that I'm much more on the optimistic side but all the same, in a way, she's family and that is the concept you seem to not be understanding.
Now I don't' think this is really the point of the thread in regards to the Quafe incident. I think we can all go back to discussing that. But I don't think it fair or constructive to misguidedly attack Ms. Del'thul on whether or not she cares or will do anything she can for her people.
Speaking of, do you think that the State will issue any kind of apology to the family of those that lost their lives? What are your opinions on the matter of the itchy trigger finger of those involved? This seems more prudent a topic to discuss and I am interested in your reply. |
Syenna Celeste
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
56
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:09:51 -
[348] - Quote
Victoria Grey wrote:Syenna Celeste wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Point out any of my people within my reach I have abandoned and I'll pay you every ISK I own and transfer the Hel as well. There you go. "My people" again. You still haven't told me who you're fighting for in YC119. Do you even know anymore? She'd told you but you don't seem to understand the concept. Her people are her own. She protects who she can. It doesn't matter where she or any of us is or are.
Until her latest reply she had at no point qualified who precisely her people were. Given that she doesn't seem to fight for anybody, my questioning was entirely reasonable.
Victoria Grey wrote:
Speaking of, do you think that the State will issue any kind of apology to the family of those that lost their lives? What are your opinions on the matter of the itchy trigger finger of those involved? This seems more prudent a topic to discuss and I am interested in your reply.
The State probably won't. It's not my place to say if they should - I am not a loyalist, and I won't speak for what the empires should or shouldn't do.
I don't see any evidence of an 'itchy trigger finger', contrary to what some Federal extremists have been parroting. A legitimate target is a legitimate target. The State didn't exactly make a secret of closing the border.
Now I'm interested to know why you'd be interested in my reply. Meta.
Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.
|
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:24:50 -
[349] - Quote
Syenna Celeste wrote:
Now I'm interested to know why you'd be interested in my reply. Meta.
Mostly to steer the topic back to the topic from back and forth discussions.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3292
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:25:26 -
[350] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:@Aria, I don't need to 'trust your perceptions' or agree with them. I just idly wonder if you have any that you yourself consider valid, because when you deflect rather than respond, it looks a lot like you do not and I hope I'm wrong about that.
Some arguments aren't worth the energy, Miz-- especially when the data set being discussed gets defined to exclude the examples where I have a meaningful amount of information even as that data is simultaneously described in terms that make it clear it isn't being handled as an exception to the larger pattern, but a continuation.
Arguing interpretations of even the parts of your past I'm actually involved in with you is a little like trying to find the last few bits of "treasure" Ms. Qerl hid down in the artificial underwater labyrinth at the bottom of what we euphemistically refer to as the deep end of the Gottin's Lamp swimming pool: it involves probing the deep recesses of a basically alien realm; it involves a lot of time and a huge amount of effort; it's at least slightly dangerous; and it only very rarely returns a small shiny object worth less than an ISK.
It's something I might do for fun, but, arguing with you isn't actually fun to begin with. Both pursuits are good exercise, though. |
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1547
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:38:54 -
[351] - Quote
Very well, heading for a rest cycle so not much point trying to coax something other than deflection from you in that regard. Just do please consider the very simple viewpoint that requires no delving of alien realms: When the deflections come only when convenient to ignore something, sprinkled between the actual discussions you do have answers for, I'm sure you can understand why I wonder if you have any solid perceptions, agreed with or not.
Good night, Aria. I genuinely hope I'm wrong. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3293
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:46:01 -
[352] - Quote
Good night, Miz.
I ... can't really be sure. Subjectivity, you know. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7381
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 22:48:13 -
[353] - Quote
Interesting speculations, but the problem is still that we don't have any of the information needed to make the call.
We can assume the gunners followed the orders of their ship's captains. The captains followed the orders of the patrol commander. The patrol commander... Well, we don't know if he acted based upon some ROEs or if he actually spoke to someone before he pulled the trigger.
If he followed the ROEs then we have a situation where we can criticise those rules, if we ever get access to them, and criticise whether he slavishly followed them or exercised personal initiative, however flawed. Until we know the Commander, his ROEs and whether his action was a departure from those ROEs or not - we have no basis for making a determination.
As for whether the dead deserve compensation.... Well, it's the same deal. Were they criminals? Victims of a misunderstanding? Victims of a crime?
We don't know.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Shun Makoto
Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK.
59
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 23:11:26 -
[354] - Quote
I'm seeing a lot of speculation fly around but we've still yet to see an official statement from Customs. Though the fact we've yet to see a statement is...disheartening.
Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK. (Kalaakiota Business Research Corporation)
Head of Security
...................................
Kaalakiota Corporation
Patriot Faction
|
Loai Qerl
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
233
|
Posted - 2017.04.10 23:16:10 -
[355] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:a small shiny object worth less than an ISK.
Ooo, hush you. It's nice treasure. It's worth at least four. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1656
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 00:20:54 -
[356] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Your disappointment is, to me, in line with your other political opinions, Miz.
Warped. Unreliable. Worthless.
Dust.
It doesn't make you wrong, mind. It's more that your opinion is without weight.
That's actually a little remarkable. So, I maybe should apologize for coming back to it again; it's just that finding that I actually am totally disregarding someone's opinion, it's unusual enough that I kind of end up dwelling on why.
Because Arrendis is of course correct: it does mean devaluing your experience. I need to be careful. Interesting, I find her opinions something other entirely.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3301
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 00:40:34 -
[357] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Your disappointment is, to me, in line with your other political opinions, Miz.
Warped. Unreliable. Worthless.
Dust.
It doesn't make you wrong, mind. It's more that your opinion is without weight.
That's actually a little remarkable. So, I maybe should apologize for coming back to it again; it's just that finding that I actually am totally disregarding someone's opinion, it's unusual enough that I kind of end up dwelling on why.
Because Arrendis is of course correct: it does mean devaluing your experience. I need to be careful. Interesting, I find her opinions something other entirely.
Hm ... "political" might be the wrong term anyway, though that's often how it plays out-- not the politics of empires, but the politics of individuals and small groups. |
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2362
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 01:04:00 -
[358] - Quote
*grabs popcorn*
You know, this became a s**t storm faster then my 18th birthday party... and that went downhill as soon as the first guest arrived naked.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1657
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 01:45:11 -
[359] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:... and that went downhill as soon as the first guest arrived naked. No.. I was at that party, Mr. Biko enjoyed himself as I remember.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
905
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 15:54:37 -
[360] - Quote
M. Syagrius, that was at my own (2nd) 18th birthday party, not Osyn's.
Sorry for the off-topic, but I had to engage in a little rumor control.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1660
|
Posted - 2017.04.11 23:04:00 -
[361] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:M. Syagrius, that was at my own (2nd) 18th birthday party, not Osyn's.
Sorry for the off-topic, but I had to engage in a little rumor control. My pardon, my memory isn't what it used to be.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3151
|
Posted - 2017.04.15 12:21:20 -
[362] - Quote
Shun Makoto wrote:I'm seeing a lot of speculation fly around but we've still yet to see an official statement from Customs. Though the fact we've yet to see a statement is...disheartening. If there is no statement, then there is nothing to explain. It looks like it was just another successful operation with Quafe crying about it and making up stuff. Simple as that.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1660
|
Posted - 2017.04.16 22:23:47 -
[363] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. Your weekly reminder, as promised.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
987
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 04:25:01 -
[364] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. Your weekly reminder, as promised. While I guess I should feel honored that you find it worth your time to do this for me, but consider your reminder duly noted and disregarded.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3188
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 13:33:41 -
[365] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: If there is no statement, then there is nothing to explain.
Even you cannot be this brainwashed.
|
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
987
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 15:58:45 -
[366] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Diana Kim wrote: If there is no statement, then there is nothing to explain.
Even you cannot be this brainwashed. Sure she can.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
|
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
615
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 17:24:21 -
[367] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:You know, this became a s**t storm faster then my 18th birthday party... and that went downhill as soon as the first guest arrived naked.
The First Guest to Arrive was Naked ? Or The first Naked Guests Arrival was the Point at which Things Got Out Of Hand ?
Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.
It is Written.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2367
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 18:05:47 -
[368] - Quote
Synthetic Cultist wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:You know, this became a s**t storm faster then my 18th birthday party... and that went downhill as soon as the first guest arrived naked. The First Guest to Arrive was Naked ? Or The first Naked Guests Arrival was the Point at which Things Got Out Of Hand ? Yes.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1662
|
Posted - 2017.04.17 23:53:05 -
[369] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:While I guess I should feel honored that you find it worth your time to do this for me, but consider your reminder duly noted and disregarded. More flattered than honored I would suppose, but noted and disregarded.... I am not sure how that works but still, never fear, while my memory is often tidal when fixated impeccable.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7429
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 20:22:37 -
[370] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. Your weekly reminder, as promised.
I mean, I get it, but in the absence of any information about what actually happened, what conclusions are we supposed to draw? I'm totally prepared to be outraged if a crime has actually been committed (you might signally remember I went to war against my own Executor over an attack on civilians) but in the absence of evidence I'm not sure how upset I can get.
Well, I am. Not much.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1664
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 22:01:11 -
[371] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I mean, I get it, but in the absence of any information about what actually happened, what conclusions are we supposed to draw? I'm totally prepared to be outraged if a crime has actually been committed (you might signally remember I went to war against my own Executor over an attack on civilians) but in the absence of evidence I'm not sure how upset I can get.
Well, I am. Not much. Pieter, you know my mind on such matters as well as anyone in the State... well, save one. It isn't in my nature to accept and obey regarding something like this, without justification. My intent isn't to encourage 'outrage'. But what little one can do, one should do and I can do this.
A state actor destroyed an unarmed civilian convoy, our business or not, I would know the reason why.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7431
|
Posted - 2017.04.18 22:08:30 -
[372] - Quote
Well, I wish you luck in getting an answer. I'd like to know what happened, myself.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3152
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 10:11:10 -
[373] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I mean, I get it, but in the absence of any information about what actually happened, what conclusions are we supposed to draw? I'm totally prepared to be outraged if a crime has actually been committed (you might signally remember I went to war against my own Executor over an attack on civilians) but in the absence of evidence I'm not sure how upset I can get.
Well, I am. Not much. Pieter, you know my mind on such matters as well as anyone in the State... well, save one. It isn't in my nature to accept and obey regarding something like this, without justification. My intent isn't to encourage 'outrage'. But what little one can do, one should do and I can do this. A state actor destroyed an unarmed civilian convoy, our business or not, I would know the reason why. Weren't it said already? Illegal border crossing.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Madhatter's Tea House Arx Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 15:43:51 -
[374] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I mean, I get it, but in the absence of any information about what actually happened, what conclusions are we supposed to draw? I'm totally prepared to be outraged if a crime has actually been committed (you might signally remember I went to war against my own Executor over an attack on civilians) but in the absence of evidence I'm not sure how upset I can get.
Well, I am. Not much. Pieter, you know my mind on such matters as well as anyone in the State... well, save one. It isn't in my nature to accept and obey regarding something like this, without justification. My intent isn't to encourage 'outrage'. But what little one can do, one should do and I can do this. A state actor destroyed an unarmed civilian convoy, our business or not, I would know the reason why. Weren't it said already? Illegal border crossing. Not the case if the prohibition was onlyn on entering non-capsuleer traffic.
We can argue back and forth. All that will put this to bed is a release of investigatory results. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
787
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 15:53:09 -
[375] - Quote
It should be noted that traffic at the border may be stopped for reasons that are at once legal and yet not directly related to the Kyonoke restrictions.
The fight is mostly the last 0-300km in a logistics chain.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3424
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 16:05:08 -
[376] - Quote
Jev North wrote:It should be noted that traffic at the border may be stopped for reasons that are at once legal and yet not directly related to the Kyonoke restrictions.
True, though that would leave questions about why the freighters went down with all hands.
Usually you'd expect someone to have survived long enough to be arrested. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1669
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 17:38:44 -
[377] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:True, though that would leave questions about why the freighters went down with all hands.
Usually you'd expect someone to have survived long enough to be arrested. A valid point, As I recall the average crew survival rate for a ship of that size is 37.5%.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3196
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 18:43:20 -
[378] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:As I recall the average crew survival rate for a ship of that size is 37.5%.
Funny thing, the average crew survival rate for an unarmed freighter being stopped by law enforcement interested in making an arrest, and not simply blowing them to hel.. is closer to 85%, because unarmed freighters who are pointed and webbed down by law enforcement have this weird tendency to not be able to shoot back and provoke a lethal response. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7433
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 20:52:48 -
[379] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:James Syagrius wrote:As I recall the average crew survival rate for a ship of that size is 37.5%.
Funny thing, the average crew survival rate for an unarmed freighter being stopped by law enforcement interested in making an arrest, and not simply blowing them to hel.. is closer to 85%, because unarmed freighters who are pointed and webbed down by law enforcement have this weird tendency to not be able to shoot back and provoke a lethal response.
They may have outnumbered the number of available tacklers. The only alternative then would be to allow the untackled ships to escape - and the commanding officer may have decided it was simply better to ask forgiveness than permission and fired.
Personally I find it very unlikely that the Navy would have decided to simply butcher the escaping / surrendering crew of the freighters. There's simply no reason to do so. At the same time, it is almost impossible that so many prisoners could be introduced to the prison system without THEIR version of the story getting out by now.
This all adds up to either no survivors or else maximum security internment for the survivors. This would be a very unusual policy - but then we were already dealing with a zebra due to circumstances surrounding the interdiction of that convoy.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3197
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 21:22:13 -
[380] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: They may have outnumbered the number of available tacklers. The only alternative then would be to allow the untackled ships to escape - and the commanding officer may have decided it was simply better to ask forgiveness than permission and fired.
C'mon. I could see that as an explanation for why some of the vessels were destroyed, but all of them?
Quote: Personally I find it very unlikely that the Navy would have decided to simply butcher the escaping / surrendering crew of the freighters. There's simply no reason to do so. At the same time, it is almost impossible that so many prisoners could be introduced to the prison system without THEIR version of the story getting out by now.
This all adds up to either no survivors or else maximum security internment for the survivors. This would be a very unusual policy - but then we were already dealing with a zebra due to circumstances surrounding the interdiction of that convoy.
Indeed. And the State hasn't contested the claims that there were no survivors. So either there were none, or the State would rather be seen as executing an entire convoy of unarmed ships out of hand, with all of the political repercussions that might carry... than explain what actually happened.
That's a bit troubling, don't you think? Either the State did execute a bunch of unarmed ships they could have simply apprehended... or something worse was going on. Or something they think would seem worse. Troubling, either way. |
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7433
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 22:09:50 -
[381] - Quote
It's not necessarily the case that the truth might make the State seem worse to interested parties - it might just be the case that information being released would have consequences worse than reporting they'd destroyed all the freighters and killed all the crews.
Most of the reasons I can think of are due to some developing situation or investigation.
If you remember a week or two ago, many of us were sure that said situation was a burgeoning conflict with the Federation - but talk of war has also gone cold and, since the Fed girding it's loins for a new war would require plenty of media frothing to whip up Gallente sentiment, I'm now a lot less confident in that scenario.
So, if I were to hazard a guess as to what and why, I'd say that they need something from some of the crew. That they've taken those crew into custody and that they destroyed the ships and have kept the rest of the recovered crew to obfuscate precisely which crew they wanted from which ships in the convoy.
It's really the only thing that makes sense.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
TomHorn
Kresh Leaves
300
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 23:06:00 -
[382] - Quote
Information may just be classified for national security reasons.
They had the evidence , they had a reason , they are unable to reveal that information without compromising their sources.
This kinda thing is pretty common , public accept that their government are telling them truth. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9542
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 23:21:26 -
[383] - Quote
An update from authorities.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
TomHorn
Kresh Leaves
301
|
Posted - 2017.04.19 23:32:34 -
[384] - Quote
Oh well , how about that.
Glory to the State |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3203
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 00:51:39 -
[385] - Quote
Yup. They totally had the evidence, and totally had a good reason. Definitely shows how much we should be trusting the Caldari Navy, huh?
Quote:Destroyed while in the process of leaving the State via the Caldari Border Zone, the convoy of seven Obelisk class freighters was lost after being diverted to an off-grid customs holding facility several AU away from the Stargate that connects the Caldari system of Kassigainen with the Federal border system of Algogille.
Diverted to a holding facility and then destroyed... because, mysteriously, seven Obelisks just started to break up when exiting warp. Oh, but their flight data recorders were damaged during recovery, so we can't see if that was actually happening. Recording systems designed to survive the destruction of the ship, damaged. All seven of them. Totally legit, right? Nothing suspicious there. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1671
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 00:55:08 -
[386] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Glory to the State Such glory, indeed.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7434
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 01:19:32 -
[387] - Quote
Huh. It just gets weirder, doesn't it?
I'm still firmly of the opinion that there is no reason at all for the State to destroy a shipment of empty soft drink bottles - even bottles that were due to sap the strength of State citizens by being returned full of a second-class beverage - and since further details remain to be given and a review is underway, I'm going to wait for that review to be published.
Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?
Cui Bono - who benefits, as the Amarrians would say.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3203
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 02:18:06 -
[388] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?
Oh, I've no doubt this 'plot' has all of the subtlety and careful, long-term planning typical of a Brave Newbies coup d'etat, e.g.: none. This seems a lot more like your generic 'Glory to the State, and the Federation must something something' type over-zealous idiot kind of move than anything worthy of the word 'plot'. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3152
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 04:40:13 -
[389] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Diana Kim wrote: If there is no statement, then there is nothing to explain.
Even you cannot be this brainwashed. Even you cannont be this dumb to believe I could be brainwashed.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7437
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 05:16:11 -
[390] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Given that Customs has accepted responsibility for the incident - however it happened - there seems little chance of it being a plot on behalf of The State. All there is, here, is culpability and bad press - so it'd be an odd sort of machievellian scheme, wouldn't it?
Oh, I've no doubt this 'plot' has all of the subtlety and careful, long-term planning typical of a Brave Newbies coup d'etat, e.g.: none. This seems a lot more like your generic 'Glory to the State, and the Federation must something something' type over-zealous idiot kind of move than anything worthy of the word 'plot'.
You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 09:23:02 -
[391] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil.
Is the Caldari Customs a division of the Navy? I am no expert in State law but the accountability appears to reside with Customs from these reports and the State ultimately bears responsibility for any proven breach of the Yulai Convention. How this liability is discharged has clearly been left in the hands of the Caldari Business Tribunal - a body whose accountability and constitution is not clear to me.
I think the decision by DED to allow the investigation to proceed under State provisions is wise at this time, given the State's default position on outside interference. However, because this is also an apparent breach of the Yulai Convention (and a significant one, if proven) the State would do well to be very open about the conclusions, even if they reflect poorly on a subsection of the Armed Forces.
Trade is the lifeblood of the State, perhaps more than any other empire, and random, unexplained destruction of convoys will be viewed with trepidation by those who trade there.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
|
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1602
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:14:07 -
[392] - Quote
UPDATE: Quafe Convoy Destruction Confirmed Illegal.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7439
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:24:38 -
[393] - Quote
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You know that there's a difference between being blunt and being stupid. If the Navy was as stupid as you're suggesting I'd have been "most promising rookie" in the FDU not Cal Mil. Is the Caldari Customs a division of the Navy? I am no expert in State law but the accountability appears to reside with Customs from these reports and the State ultimately bears responsibility for any proven breach of the Yulai Convention. How this liability is discharged has clearly been left in the hands of the Caldari Business Tribunal - a body whose accountability and constitution is not clear to me. I think the decision by DED to allow the investigation to proceed under State provisions is wise at this time, given the State's default position on outside interference. However, because this is also an apparent breach of the Yulai Convention (and a significant one, if proven) the State would do well to be very open about the conclusions, even if they reflect poorly on a subsection of the Armed Forces. Trade is the lifeblood of the State, perhaps more than any other empire, and random, unexplained destruction of convoys will be viewed with trepidation by those who trade there.
The CBT is the only non-Corporate court within the State. Because Megas generally own huge chunks of space, most disagreements come under the aegis of the local Mega's own legal system but, for obvious reasons, when two Megacorporations square off, you need an impartial court of law to hear the case. That court is the CBT.
I'd add my voice to you. The investigators need time and privacy to accomplish their investigation, but once that is completed I think the CBT needs to openly publish the results. I think they will - taking responsibility for the destruction of the convoy means that there really IS nothing to gain from stubborn silence.
Now, perhaps, some people could take their tinfoil hats off? If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
891
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:54:46 -
[394] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom. The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible.
Seems all the speculation is gone to me.
As strength goes.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3152
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 14:58:16 -
[395] - Quote
Thank you, Mr. Soldarius.
That's interesting. However, I believe that the claim about the confirmation of the illegality of this attack was made too hastily.
From what we know now, it were heavily damaged freighter on a collision course with the holding facility, and it still was damaged by the debris from these freighters.
It looks for me that the Pilot Alpha and the whole squadron deserves the medal for the fast reaction and taking seemingly illegal action to prevent yet another attempt at terror attack, that Gallenteans so love to execute.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Madhatter's Tea House Arx Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 15:35:45 -
[396] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Thank you, Mr. Soldarius. That's interesting. However, I believe that the claim about the confirmation of the illegality of this attack was made too hastily. From what we know now, it were heavily damaged freighter on a collision course with the holding facility, and it still was damaged by the debris from these freighters. It looks for me that the Pilot Alpha and the whole squadron deserves the medal for the fast reaction and taking seemingly illegal action to prevent yet another attempt at terror attack, that Gallenteans so love to execute. More hearsay. Let the investigation play out, as we only have initial findings. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7439
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 16:34:36 -
[397] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom. The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible. Seems all the speculation is gone to me.
Since you know everything, would you mind telling me what the why is?
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3208
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:16:15 -
[398] - Quote
UPDATE: YOU SHOULD LOOK 9 RESPONSES BEFORE YOURS!
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3208
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 21:59:33 -
[399] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ayallah wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If there's speculating to be done, it should be over what happened to the convoy to cause it to break up in transit and why and by whom. The Caldari navy did so by firing missiles at them and then destroying the flight recorders and ruling what is left inadmissible. Seems all the speculation is gone to me. Since you know everything, would you mind telling me what the why is?
Pieter. You know I hate agreeing with Ayallah, but really, c'mon. All seven flight data recorders, designed to survive the ship being blown up, were too heavily damaged for the combined data to be admissible? Even as an incomplete picture of events?
All seven?
Have you ever seen a ship that survived getting into warp break up on existing warp? Ever? I mean, we're not talking about an experimental hull here. We're talking about Obelisks. We're talking about a big can with engines on it. If it survives getting into warp, it's gonna survive coming out again. And this mysterious freak occurance happened... on seven ships? Simultaneously? In the same place?
Remember, someone had to do the diverting, and we've had no reports that they were fired upon before entering warp. By anyone. Once they get into warp, nobody could have fired on them. And none of the recovered debrisGÇöeven according to the CBTGÇöshows any explosive devices other than the residue from incoming Caldari missile fire. Internal explosions of the sort needed to rupture the hull produce very different debris patterns than missiles detonating agaisnt the hull.
The only testimony we have to say that they were breaking up... was the guys who shot them. And Pilot Alpha doesn't tell us about any attempt at contacting the freighter crews to see if they have the time to render humanitarian assistance to unarmed ships. We're told this was done because of the imminent danger the debris posed to a station with functioning shielding. This station, which would completely ignore capital-class artillery fire, is somehow damaged by debris. Seriously?
Remember: Pilot Alpha is the only one testifying to this. And there's no mention of supporting telemetry from, you know... the Caldari Customs vessels. Or the station, which presumably would have been tracking the 'debris' that supposedly damaged it. The only data we have from the Caldari Customs elements is 'yep, the ships fired six hundred missiles over seven minutes'.
Seven minutes of sustained fire. Not 'instant boom', either. Seven minutes. No time to say 'hey, guys, your hulls are breaking up, can you change course?' but plenty of time to fire off six hundred missiles.
If the ships were already breaking up... why weren't the crew already running for the lifeboats? How is it nobody escaped? On seven Obelisks? 4,691 people, and nobody is near a lifeboat? You can't tell me someone's not gonna panic and be all 'screw you hippies, I'm not dying because I waited for three more guys'. In seven minutes?
So, Pieter:
A convoy of seven Obelisks is diverted to a remote facility.
All seven get into warp without incident.
All seven experience some freak unexplained mishap in warp.
All seven begin to break up on exiting warp.
Nobody notices the ship falling apartGÇöor is close enough to a lifeboat to get to safetyGÇöon all seven.
Caldari Customs immediately opens fire.
They keep firing for seven minutes.
During all of this time, still nobody gets to a lifeboat. 4700 people, and nobody makes it to a lifeboat.
The flight data recorders are too heavily damaged to do the one thing they're designed to do. All seven.
Pieter, just how small are the odds of that sequence happening?
How much larger is the likelihood of 'Caldari Customs blew the hell out of some freighters because they got a bug up their butts, purposefully recovered and tampered with the flight data recorders, and there were survivors, but they've either been killed... or 'disappeared'?
Which one's more likely, Pieter? If it wasn't the State, would you be anywhere near this skeptical of the possibility of malfeasance? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7442
|
Posted - 2017.04.20 23:22:58 -
[400] - Quote
So, I did do some of the foundational training for Detective work, as a youngster. Let me tell you what bothers me about this OTHER than the fact that it's the State that's involved.
1. I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, work out how either the State as a whole or the Customs service in particular benefits from this particular act of savagery. I am totally willing to accept that they are capable of it, but right now the only motive offered is pretty much 'for the evulz' and there aren't many customs officers I've met who would slaughter almost five thousand State citizens because there's a connection to the Federation. You'd need to get the entire crews of the entire Customs squadron on board - not to mention the crew and visitors to the facility.
2. You just ran through all the evidence that points to State involvement. A huge amount of evidence. A huge amount of evidence which there has been no attempt to conceal. A lot of that evidence need never have been created in the first place. There are ways and means to do this sort of thing - and I think you know that they involve the placement of an interdictor between gates and the use of a false flag force. It would have been child's play to assemble some ships that would look like Guristas, or to pay capsuleers to do it.
When assembling a criminal case there are always three legs on which the case must stand. Means, Motive and Opportunity. The State cleary had the Means and the Opportunity. There is absolutely no sane Motive that I can see - and none that has been offered in the many, many pages of commentary, here.
Does it matter? Not really. The State has already accepted responsibility for the incident and judged the destruction of the ships illegal. Unless it can find some other party to pin the initial destruction of the freighters on, the Customs Agency will wind up on the hook for this breach of the Yulai Accords and for any recrimination that comes from that. I'm expecting a suit from Quafe Corporation to in front of the CBT almost immediately. Said suit will cost the State resources, cost the Customs Agency - who will no doubt suffer a purge as a result - and cripple their ability to enforce the border closure between State and Federation.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
37
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 01:14:42 -
[401] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
The only testimony we have to say that they were breaking up... was the guys who shot them. And Pilot Alpha doesn't tell us about any attempt at contacting the freighter crews to see if they have the time to render humanitarian assistance to unarmed ships. We're told this was done because of the imminent danger the debris posed to a station with functioning shielding. This station, which would completely ignore capital-class artillery fire, is somehow damaged by debris. Seriously?
In case you have forgotten, we Caldari had a very serious problem with Gallente ships on a collision course towards a station. We lost a steemed CEO and many good lives that could be prevented if the Navy was ready to act like they did in this case.
This event actually pushed foward the Factional Warfare currently fighting for the low-sec zones.
I-¦m not saying they did right or wrong, but as the news reported, it was a first hearing.
Wait for the trial and proper evidence to be reviewd by all parts before jumping to conclusion. It would be quite unusual for the navy to waste seven minutes of ammo for nothing. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1674
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 01:55:23 -
[402] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:A huge amount of evidence which there has been no attempt to conceal. So you know, that no information has been concealed? That no attempt was made to do so, even considering the time between event and admission? Now I am trying to keep my suspicions of the States motivations in check. But that is a strong statement, Pieter. Are you that sure?
I will admit that I find myself hoping that you are correct, eager to hear that there was some mitigating factor or credible cause. Because if there wasnGÇÖt and this is, what it looks like, then all my supposed biasesGǪ well. LetGÇÖs see how GÇÿtheyGÇÖ proceed.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7444
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 02:55:53 -
[403] - Quote
I'm not saying that there has been nothing concealed, James. I'm saying that none of the evidence that Arrendis mentioned was concealed - or that a spirited attempt seemed to have been made to so conceal it.
I'm also not leaping around and pointing fingers - I honestly can't work out any motive for scuttling seven freighters full of empty soft drink bottles...
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3210
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 03:24:30 -
[404] - Quote
Frankly, Pieter, I don't know what the motivation would be for the State or for the Customs Service in general. I don't think the State or the larger Customs Service would have a motive for this. It's just not the thing higher-level corporate officers would bother with.
But low-level customs officials, feeling their oats and wanting to get their swagger on? Say, the senior officers of a single border system?
Generally speaking, Pieter, any border enforcement service has a tendency toward institutional bias. It's not because they're bad people, either. It's because their job is to be suspicious of 'outsiders'. And years of being professionally wary and suspicious tends to create a self-sustaining cycle where slowly but surely, you see more and more of the bad in the people you're being wary of, and less of the good.
It happens with Law Enforcement, too: the longer they're on the job, the harder it is to avoid seeing people as perpetrators, to not feel like there's an 'us vs them' mentality toward the very population they're supposed to be protecting. And for the record, this tendency is accelerated and made more pronounced, the more strongly militarized the Law Enforcement or Border Guard environment is. So, flying around in battleships the way Caldari Customs does in places? Let's just say that's not helping.
In both cases, it's the kind of thing that gets reinforced over time, as new recruits come in and get told over and over again by the old, embittered, borderline paranoids above them just how bad 'those people' are. And it can easily be exacerbated by general tensionsGÇöa rise in crime, a terrorist attack, a sudden closure of the border accompanied by aggressive and belligerent rhetoric.
All this would've taken is a knot of Customs officers at or near the top of the food chain for Kassagainen to decide 'hey, we've got this flight plan here, let's hassle these guys'. And then one Customs ship captain gets twitchy, one guyGÇöbecause as Morgana there points out, you guys are paranoid about this kind of thingGÇödecides he can't tell the difference between a freighter full of empty bottles and a supercarrier stuffed with jump fuel and munitions* (and let's not be stupid here, we all know ship scanning is pretty much automatic at gates) and suddenly it's an incident.
And let's face it, Pieter, you don't have to "get the entire crews of the entire Customs squadron on board", either. It's a tense situation. It's always going to be. That one twitchy captain? He just has to rationalize the order after the fact to his bridge crew. Most of the crew of that vessel doesn't have any reason at all to even expect to know what's going on, their manning their posts and keeping an eye on the systems they're responsible for. And the crews of the other vessels? Same thing, only more removed, because their captains get tactical reporting weapons' fire, and they're giving the order to fire because something must be up, or why would that first ship start firing? No time to waste, save the facility! And the same goes for the crew of that facility, too.
But they're all involved in the 'yeah, let's pull these guys over and give them a hard time' nonsense, and none of them want to have to answer for that crap, especially when it's costing peoples' lives now. Besides, if one of those guys rats out our one twitchy ship captain, how can any of theo thers trust them? And who's going to sell out their brothers-in-uniform, the guys who go out there and risk their lives for one another every day, over some damned Gallente?
And now you've got a cover-up. No massive conspiracy by the State, no motive needed for the Custom Service itself. Just a bunch of local border cops who got too full of themselves and decided to throw their weight around, and then had to scramble to cover a mistake.
Am I saying that's totally definitely what happened? Of course not. But don't go playing the 'the State has no motive here' card. The State doesn't need a motive. Only the guys who decided to divert that convoy do, and conveniently, they're the only ones alive to tell us how they totally didn't do anything wrong.
* - And hey, just in case someone here can't tell the difference: 940,000,000kg at 136m/s (with 3 overdrives) vs 1,600,000,000kg at 211m/s. For the record, that's four times the impact energy of the freighter without the munitions. Sure, you say, but there were seven freighters! Doesn't matter. The Nyx's flattened cross-section means it's the difference between a blade, and being hit with seven punches. Each of the punches has 1/4 the impact energy of the blade, but the blade's imparting that energy into a much more focused strike zone. I can punch you in the same spot seven times, I'm not going to have nearly the same chances of shattering bones and ripping through vital organs as that blade. It's all about the energy in a single strike, and how tightly-focused the impact of that energy is. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9545
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 03:26:04 -
[405] - Quote
Let's entertain their notions for a moment, Tuulinen-haan.
Let's say that, yes, the Caldari customs officials were angry Provist types who were just itching for an excuse to gun down Quafe freighters.
If Kim's any example, do you think they could possibly have kept quiet about it? Would they even bother with a cover up for a crime that couldn't possibly help but be traced to them?
The Provists were never exactly known for their subtlety or ability to keep quiet.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3210
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 03:47:48 -
[406] - Quote
First, let's keep in mind that Kim is an example only of her own insecurities and overcompensation, and maybe a FIO infiltration and propaganda operation.
Next: you are vastly oversimplifying this by labeling them 'Provists'. They're human beings who are, every day, called upon to be both suspicious of outsiders, and authoritarian. That's their job, to be the guys 'in charge' of situations. If a situation gets out of their control, that's bad. That's what causes and feeds the authoritarian complex. Most LEOs are aware of this, and they try to work to counter its influence, but it's not an easy thing to do, especially when it's reinforced by being in command of a ship's crew.
So to lump them all in as Provists, instead of fallible human beings doing a difficult and usually thankless job isn't just incredibly dismissive and facile, it's also pretty insulting, both toward them, and toward the intelligence of everyone reading this.
I know this is hard for you to believe, Makoto, but it is possible to approve of the job groups like the Customs Service do and still demand transparency and accountability, even to question the credibility of claims like all seven flight recorders being damaged beyond recovery in the initial destruction of the ships, rather than intentionally disabled afterwards.
In fact, anyone who does value the dedication and service of various law enforcement organizations should be demanding that kind of transparency. If you support the work of the Customs Service in general, how the hel can you rationalize not wanting to make sure that malignant actos are rooted out, to ensure the public trust is properly served? |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9545
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 04:26:50 -
[407] - Quote
Arrendis, ARC overwhelmingly voted in favor of transparency and information-sharing on day three of the Inquest.
So decisively that even the Society staff overseeing the vote couldn't contain themselves.
So, yes, as a Caldari Liberal, I personally believe that free sharing of information is better for stakeholders and for the market at large.
However, as a person who still finds the situation suspect, I'm very curious what more will come to light over the following weeks of the hearing on the Quafe freighter downing, and find the whole situation phenomenally strange, at a time when evidently multiple conspiracies were unfolding, including at least one unknown intelligence agency attempting to acquire a sample of Kyonoke pursuant to a weaponization study.
So, yes, I want transparency. And I'm waiting with bated breath for more.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3210
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 05:11:15 -
[408] - Quote
Then why the dismissive tone? Pieter said he couldn't imagine a motive. I provided a speculative, but plausible scenario that provides a motive. Why meet that with what amounts to 'let's indulge this nonsense to say that if that were feasible, the perpetrators would be too stupid to avoid drowning in the shower'? And why bring Kim into it at all? |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3152
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 06:21:12 -
[409] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Let's entertain their notions for a moment, Tuulinen-haan.
Let's say that, yes, the Caldari customs officials were angry Provist types who were just itching for an excuse to gun down Quafe freighters.
If Kim's any example, do you think they could possibly have kept quiet about it? Would they even bother with a cover up for a crime that couldn't possibly help but be traced to them?
The Provists were never exactly known for their subtlety or ability to keep quiet.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Provists weren't "those angry types", they were examples of ideal citizens. Of course if we don't take into account those guristas, who claimed to be "Provists" while stealing Navy ships.
Makoto, on other hand, is exactly one of the "angry types", you all can see how she spews her hatred and lies about Provists. While being Provist is a great honor, this annoying creature just loves to use Provists as "insult", throwing these ridiculous accusations around and looking as stupid as those gurista, who put this label on themselves. She even tried to call me a Provist, who, whether would be greatly honored to be one, never actually had the chance.
Ladies and gentlemen. Makoto is just a lier and slanderer, who tries to damage reputation of Caldari people: Caldari customs, Provists, or Caldari capsuleer officers (like yours truly). When she started doing it about me, I confronted her lies in open. She was unable to stand for her lies. You can read it here, if you need more details, when I gave her chance for a peaceful solution: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560
This vile woman doesn't seem to want to live with Caldari in peace.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
37
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 10:47:24 -
[410] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: * - And hey, just in case someone here can't tell the difference: 940,000,000kg at 136m/s (with 3 overdrives) vs 1,600,000,000kg at 211m/s. For the record, that's four times the impact energy of the freighter without the munitions. Sure, you say, but there were seven freighters! Doesn't matter. The Nyx's flattened cross-section means it's the difference between a blade, and being hit with seven punches. Each of the punches has 1/4 the impact energy of the blade, but the blade's imparting that energy into a much more focused strike zone. I can punch you in the same spot seven times, I'm not going to have nearly the same chances of shattering bones and ripping through vital organs as that blade. It's all about the energy in a single strike, and how tightly-focused the impact of that energy is.
Exactly the kind of thinking that a regular non-capsuleer non-implanted person on a stressful job will have on this kind of situation.
I take pride on our educational system and on the quality of our officers, but i don-¦t think that everyone knows the exact stats of ships, stations and do on the fly calculations like the one you-¦re making on the confort of wherever you are.
(By the way, where is this location, so we can grab a drink the two of us later? ) |
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
892
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 10:53:36 -
[411] - Quote
Lina Ambre wrote: the convoy of seven Obelisk class freighters was lost after being diverted to an off-grid customs holding facility several AU away from the Stargate that connects the Caldari system of Kassigainen with the Federal border system of Algogille. They diverted themselves for no reason and then broke up exiting warp, something that never happens just by chance happened seven times all to the same convoy at the same time.
Lina Ambre wrote:Voice recordings from the last moments of the convoy were played during the initial hearing, and appear to confirm pilots and engineering staff exchanging words regarding hull breaches, missile fire and explosions shortly after arriving in close proximity to the facility. Their ships were breaking up but they were talking about missile fire and hull breaches. Either those ships retain amazing control while breaking up in warp, It must happen to them all the time.
But of course all it takes is a Caldari court to make all evidence from the victims inadmissible and a hastily constructed-weeks later lie to convince every Caldari in New Eden to march in lock step and stop thinking.
As much as I love your appealing to agreeing with an 'enemy' as a debate tactic Arrendis, you are wasting your time. The people you are arguing with will make any effort to see the State as anything but mother and father.
A Caldari court is investigating a Caldari crime, expect no justice or honesty.
As strength goes.
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
37
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 11:15:55 -
[412] - Quote
- Order is given by Caldari prohibiting Federation ships from crossing borders. - Federation vessels try to cross border anyway (Mistake n-¦1) - Federation vessels are escorted away from the gate for inspection - ???? (Several Mistakes were made) - Federation vessels blow up under Caldari responsability - Investigation ongoing with DED oversight
Stop holding so many grudges against the Caldari, things are being investigated and with proper transparency and supervision from the cluster.
It-¦s a strange situation? Yes.
But we just got out of a universal threat situation sorrounded by questions and shadow conspiracies involving intelligence agencies building bio-weapon, miraculous readily available antidotes, manipulation of key personel, killing of scientists, clonejacking of a VIP from one of the most respected institutions on the cluster, and you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?
|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
861
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 12:28:33 -
[413] - Quote
I see the Mental Gymnastics Championships of YC 119 started early this year. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3222
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 12:38:43 -
[414] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Exactly the kind of thinking that a regular non-capsuleer non-implanted person on a stressful job will have on this kind of situation. I take pride on our educational system and on the quality of our officers, but i don-¦t think that everyone knows the exact stats of ships, stations and do on the fly calculations like the one you-¦re making on the confort of wherever you are. (By the way, where is this location, so we can grab a drink the two of us later? )
A)Delve. Feel free to bop on down to 1dq. Fly something shiny to impress the locals.
B)Yes, exactly the kind of thinking that a combat vessel's captain should know, automatically: "a Nyx is a giant blade with a prop mod, an Obelisk is a beach-ball."
Seriously, at some point in your contortions, you might look around and see how badly you're insulting your own military academies. Yes, this is precisely the kind of information it is their job to know: threat assessment, characteristics and capabilities of different hulls, how to tell the difference between a 1-kilometer freighter and a 3-kilometer supercarrier...
Yeah. I expect a professional, career officer who's managed to rise to the rank of ship's captain in command of a ship firing cruise missiles and/or torpedoes to know these things. Maybe not the exact numbers, mind you, but yes, they should know the general range of those numbers. Exactly numbers were provided here because if I hadn't, you'd have falled back on the 'but there were seven of them nonsense that I pre-emptively took away from you.
I expect them to know that. Why don't you? Why do you expect the State to be putting people in command of battleships without making sure they're intelligent, competent, and knowledgeable? If I were one of the ship captains involved in this, guilty or innocent, I swear, other than Pieter, I'd be begging all of you to stop helping. Because you're not. Ever hear the expression 'with friends like these...'? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3222
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 12:48:28 -
[415] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?
Do you mean the faction whose citizens were responsible for the outbreaks in the first place? Or do you mean the faction whose citizensGÇöincluding at least one active-duty military officerGÇöwere involved in an active plot secure and use the deadliest plague in history? Or maybe you mean the faction the larger extremist group, whose members are not all known to be either dead or apprehended, is claimed to support?
I mean, take your pick, it's all the same one.
Look, I don't actually hold the State responsible for the actions of the Kasaras and their ilk. I think it would be foolish to do so. But it does seem to me that trying to deflect criticism away from the State by saying 'we're the ones who suffered the most from what a bunch of Caldari did!' is uhm...
... yeah. Gonna say it again: Stop helping. Cuz you ain't. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3222
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 13:02:41 -
[416] - Quote
I've been considering carefully how to respond to Post #409. There's a lot that could be said, but it's a honeypot for further diversion and nonsense. Ironically, I suspect that's exactly what the intention was in provoking it. And so...
Look at what you did, Makoto. You woke That Which Must Destroy The Federation. I hope you're proud of yourself. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
37
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 13:18:49 -
[417] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?
Do you mean the faction whose citizens were responsible for the outbreaks in the first place? Or do you mean the faction whose citizensGÇöincluding at least one active-duty military officerGÇöwere involved in an active plot secure and use the deadliest plague in history? Or maybe you mean the faction the larger extremist group, whose members are not all known to be either dead or apprehended, is claimed to support? I mean, take your pick, it's all the same one. Look, I don't actually hold the State responsible for the actions of the Kasaras and their ilk. I think it would be foolish to do so. But it does seem to me that trying to deflect criticism away from the State by saying 'we're the ones who suffered the most from what a bunch of Caldari did!' is uhm... ... yeah. Gonna say it again: Stop helping. Cuz you ain't.
You have the evidence showing that Rook and Vulture manipulated the Caldari Officer and that his sister went along to stop the operation.
No one is denying that State members were involved, at least not me. But the evidence available points toward a grand orchestration, of external intelligence agencies trying to adquire a sample of Kyonoke from the Caldari and manipulating Caldari agents to do it. The magically Gallente and Minmatar pharma corps show up with a precise and efficient antidote out of the blue?
Yeah, right.
As to the border patrol, i-¦m not questioning they habilities, just saying that their line of work involve a lot more tension and shooting than other areas. And if the freighters represented any risk to Caldari ships and stations, the neutralization was a quite protocolar response.
1dq you say. Sure, where can we have a drink there? As for the locals joining in, i was thinking of some alone time with you, but give me a few drinks and sure, we can have company if you-¦re into it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3222
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 14:09:42 -
[418] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: You have the evidence showing that Rook and Vulture manipulated the Caldari Officer and that his sister went along to stop the operation.
No one is denying that State members were involved, at least not me. But the evidence available points toward a grand orchestration, of external intelligence agencies trying to adquire a sample of Kyonoke from the Caldari and manipulating Caldari agents to do it. The magically Gallente and Minmatar pharma corps show up with a precise and efficient antidote out of the blue?
Yeah, right.
And no-one has proven that Vulture and Rook weren't working for Caldari Intelligence. Is it unlikely? Sure. But it hasn't been ruled out. And Akira Kasaras was convinced to assist against the initial extremist group, yesGÇöbut we have no indications of how she was convinced, whether she was originally a member, as were others in her family, or if she supported those aims and was simply acting under duress when working against them.
As for the Federation and Republic scientists... if data on something exists in the cluster, there will be those willing to pay to get it, however classified that data might be. Your supposition indicates a belief that Vulture and Rook were not Caldari agents, and strongly implies that they were working with Federal and/or Republic intelligence and R&D. But here's the thing: if the pharmacorps in question already had this cure... they wouldn't have needed the outbreak. There would have been no reason to redirect Akira Kasaras, no reason to breach the Pit. I certainly won't say it's impossible that a group with a reputation for illegal activity, like Eifyr, couldn't have made a bio-weapon, but if they had... is it reasonable to imagine the initial test would be on a Federal facility? That is, after all, where Vulture and Rook targeted their activities.
Let's face it, they'd have dropped this on Amarr Prime.
Quote: As to the border patrol, i-¦m not questioning they habilities, just saying that their line of work involve a lot more tension and shooting than other areas. And if the freighters represented any risk to Caldari ships and stations, the neutralization was a quite protocolar response.
Yes, their jobs do require more tension and shooting. That's why they're trained in threat assesment, and things like, you know, knowing that freighters bounce off the Jita 4-4 undock all the damned time when they don't accelerate into warp quickly enough. Without, you know, decimating the station. Again: you're not helping, either their case, or yours.
Quote: 1dq you say. Sure, where can we have a drink there? As for the locals joining in, i was thinking of some alone time with you, but give me a few drinks and sure, we can have company if you-¦re into it.
Just hang out on the Keepstar, I'm sure someone will get you all taken care of. I'll be in my hangar. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
7446
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 14:30:17 -
[419] - Quote
Well, if it was a rogue fleet we'll soon know. They haven't covered their tracks and the CBT is on the case. Anyone who wants to make this go away is going to have to posit and then support a rational explanation for what happened that isn't "That fleet shot everyone".
If it was a gung-ho bunch of crate peekers acting out, then I'd imagine the beatings will flow thick and fast.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2367
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 18:29:24 -
[420] - Quote
The fact that you consider suicide and combat a peaceful thing does not help your case....
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
38
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 20:59:09 -
[421] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: Just hang out on the Keepstar, I'm sure someone will get you all taken care of. I'll be in my hangar.
If i get by the keepstar, will you come out with me for a drink in a neutral location? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3224
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 22:33:28 -
[422] - Quote
There's a fine line between persistence and obsessiveness, you know.
And just where do you think of as 'neutral'? |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
38
|
Posted - 2017.04.21 23:08:53 -
[423] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:There's a fine line between persistence and obsessiveness, you know.
And just where do you think of as 'neutral'?
Well, you can always say no and i-¦ll move along, but you are just suggesting obstacles, so i-¦m keeping up.
Neutral i consider a palce where we can just have a nice drink without too much worry about beign exploded. You know, conversation and all that.
There-¦s so much boosters can do to your perception of reality beign alone in a pod.
|
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
372
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 00:24:18 -
[424] - Quote
To be honest, and maybe because I'm naive or was too drunken and convinced that Caldari never lie and rather say nothing when they want to hide the truth, but when I read the Scope news, I didn't question at all that Pilot Alpha is telling the truth. I'm sober and sceptical about my assessment now. But yesterday I was believing him, i.e. Caldari Customs started shooting at debris of the freighters that were already falling apart when they left warp at the customs facility in Kassigainen, and not earlier and not with the intention to destroy the ships, and the convoy was undamaged when it entered warp at the gate.
My immediate thought was: What else could have happened during the brief warp flight except: Self-destruction! Or initiating self-destruction during the warp flight which wasn't completely finished when they left warp but progressed enough for the vessels to start breaking up. If the freighters were diverted to the customs facility for a more thorough examination of their cargo hold somebody on board wanted to avoid this examination at all costs, and their actions might also have included the destruction of flight recorders and a lockdown of escape pod bays in order to silence any witnesses forever.
Well, I imagine I would use seven Obelisk class freighters as well if I had to smuggle something small because a haystack of millions of cubic meters is one of the best places to hide a needle. But I wouldn't self-destroy it if somebody is going to look closer because the size of the haystack was the reason why I put the needle in there in the first place. It's just unlikely that somebody looking closer will find it. However, if every single bale of hay in my huge haystack contains a needle, I might get into trouble and better blow the whole thing up to remove any evidence.
Over a billion of supposedly empty bottles on their way to a Quafe bottling facility in Everyshore, right? From where they might have been distributed all over New Eden...
|
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
38
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 01:01:28 -
[425] - Quote
Elements so far:
- flight recorders were found to have been heavily damaged
- pilots and engineering staff exchanging words regarding hull breaches, missile fire and explosions shortly after arriving in close proximity to the facility.
- holding facility, which it has been revealed was also heavily damaged by debris in the attack.
- Pilot Alpha also confirmed that "after the vessels broke up, it was apparent that the holding facility was at risk of being bombarded by fast moving debris. As such, a weapons free order was issued against the wreckage to minimise damage to the facility and preserve the safety of those on board."
- wreckage indicated the presence of residue from explosives used in Scourge and Inferno torpedoes and heavy missiles
- These missile types were confirmed to have been in use by Caldari Customs on the day of the incident, and on board telemetry from customs vessels confirms the launch of more than six hundred individual missiles over the course of a seven minute engagement.
- no distress calls were issued from any of the Quafe vessels
- "Duty of Care
- regardless of the nature of the destruction of the seven vessels, the State Armed Forces will be held accountable for the loss of the convoy and all those on board.
***
A lot of scenarios can explain the chain of events. Jumping to conclusions so fast is the problem.
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1678
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 03:05:51 -
[426] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:However, as a person who still finds the situation suspect, I'm very curious what more will come to light over the following weeks of the hearing on the Quafe freighter downing, and find the whole situation phenomenally strange, at a time when evidently multiple conspiracies were unfolding, including at least one unknown intelligence agency attempting to acquire a sample of Kyonoke pursuant to a weaponization study. Is that code for, give it time and we will figure out a way to blame the Federation? Because it is sounding quite a lot like that.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9546
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 03:33:17 -
[427] - Quote
No, Syagrius, we'll find a way to blame you. Blaming the Federation is so pass+¬.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1682
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 04:11:49 -
[428] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:No, Syagrius, we'll find a way to blame you. Blaming the Federation is so pass+¬. Well your politics may be off but your wit is admirable.
That made me hoot, an infrequent thing these days.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3226
|
Posted - 2017.04.22 23:57:18 -
[429] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: - holding facility, which it has been revealed was also heavily damaged by debris in the attack.
Claimed. It's been claimed it was heavily damaged by debris. Where's the independent corroboration? Other than a supercarrier powering into a station like an axe-blade, modern station shielding has never had a problem absorbing 'debris' before, and that was before the even newer entosis shielding systems were put in place.
So before we go blithely accepting a claim of 'this thing that's never happened before totally happened'.. Wait, no, sorry, ships 'breaking up on exiting warp'. My bad, 'these eight things that have never happened before all totally happened at the same place at the same time!', I'd like some independent corroboration. I don't think that's a lot to ask.
Quote: - no distress calls were issued from any of the Quafe vessels
Again, this is an uncorroborated claim. Capsuleer traffic generally doesn't pick up communiques from baseliner vessels outside of maybe 10-15,000 km, and you know, 'these guys being shot at by the forces of JAMMER CENTRAL don't seem to have gotten a mayday out' doesn't really tell you they didn't try, now does it? Oh, if only all seven flight data recorders hadn't mysteriously been damaged by the exact thing they're built to survive.
Quote: A lot of scenarios can explain the chain of events. Jumping to conclusions so fast is the problem.
Including the conclusion of 'we can trust the claims being made by the State'. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
44
|
Posted - 2017.04.23 02:04:39 -
[430] - Quote
Oh you sexy angry smart lady.
DED is available for a second look, i was just listing the things that the Scope reported. As i am not saving the States ass without further evidence and investigantio, no need for you to presume that all that is happening is a misdirection from the State. Let-¦s give time to time, there-¦s a lot of investigation still going on. That was just the Scope-¦s report on the subject.
And i like when investigations go all the way, looking at every little piece available leaving no stone unturned.
And i still have some inquiries to do regarding your sassy self.
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1716
|
Posted - 2017.04.30 04:38:14 -
[431] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:James Syagrius wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. Your weekly reminder, as promised. While I guess I should feel honored that you find it worth your time to do this for me, but consider your reminder duly noted and disregarded. Mr. Toov.
I will forgo my promised weekly reminder as we have since our last conversation received additional information.
But never fear, I wonGÇÖt forget, letGÇÖs say, in a month if additional clarification isnGÇÖt forthcoming.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3155
|
Posted - 2017.05.02 16:07:25 -
[432] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:The fact that you consider suicide and combat a peaceful thing does not help your case.... There were always option to bring apologies and rebuttals for the slanders, she didn't do it either. The thing about combat is that it can help release her hatred against me, Caldari officers in general and whole Caldari State by participating in a fight. There is an ancient Raata saying, that you can understand other soul when you cross the swords.
I am challenging people who start conflict and say something inappropriate against us so they can get the fight they started and come over it, solve it once and forever instead of boiling themselves in senseless hatred.
Many honorable people lately had accepted it and we finished the conflicts by a fight, for example, with Thal Vadam and Aria Jenneth. As you can see, now we are talking with each other politely and respect each other.
Makoto is a different case though.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
978
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 19:37:25 -
[433] - Quote
QUAFE COMPANY RECEIVES SUBSTANTIAL PRE-TRIBUNAL SETTLEMENT FROM STATE ARMED FORCES FOR LOSS OF CONVOY
Lina Ambre wrote:MAURASI GÇô The Caldari Business Tribunal has confirmed the rescindment of charges against Caldari Customs by the Quafe company this afternoon, after a pre-tribunal settlement was reached between the two organizations that will prevent further legal action against the State Armed Forces.
Speaking to the interstellar press, Justice Kai Etashanko, the administrator for the high-profile case that has gripped both the State and Federation since March confirmed that GÇ£The Quafe Company has cancelled all pending litigation against the State Armed Forces after settlement terms were agreed to this morning. Details of the settlement will of course remain confidential between those parties involved, and all House of Records archives have been updated as is appropriate.GÇ¥
Legal experts at The Scope believe that for such a fast resolution to have been reached, the settlement must involve substantial compensation from the State Armed Forces, with educated estimates believed to put the figure at a value of more than five hundred billion kredits.
In a press conference called shortly after the announcement was made by the CBT, Fleet Admiral Mininela Erinen, Executive Officer of the State Armed Forces, made a statement to clarify the organization's position, saying that GÇ£while a settlement has been agreed upon today between the SAF and the Quafe Company, the position of the SAF has not changed on this matter.
GÇ£The circumstances surrounding the events that transpired on March 26th GÇô which resulted in the loss of the Quafe CompanyGÇÖs Convoy GÇô remain disputed. Neither party has been able to offer the CBT full and complete timeline of events, or an explanation for what caused the destruction of seven vessels and the loss of 4,691 personnel.
GÇ£The SAF has agreed to a settlement with two objectives. The first is to avoid lengthy and costly litigation which will waste man hours that could otherwise be used defending the State at a time of heightened alert. The second objective is to preserve the dignity and memory of those lost in the incident GÇô all of whom, may I remind the press and public, were naturalized citizens of the Caldari State.GÇ¥
Admiral Erinen closed the press conference by further elaborating on the position of the State Armed Forces. Her words have drawn strong criticism from within Federal borders after she stated that GÇ£in conclusion, the SAF accepts no liability or responsibility for the loss of the 4,691 Quafe Company personnel who were killed in the incident.
GÇ£We do however acknowledge that at the time of the incident, the vessels and personnel involved were within Caldari borders, under the jurisdiction of the SAF, and were under instruction from Caldari Customs. The agreement of a settlement with the Quafe Company is neither admission nor confirmation of either liability or responsibility for the incident.GÇ¥
After concluding her statement, Admiral Erinen left the Caldari Business TribunalGÇÖs main conference hall abruptly, without addressing questions from the assembled press.
As strength goes.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
978
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 19:40:54 -
[434] - Quote
The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them.
As strength goes.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3925
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 20:20:18 -
[435] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them.
I especially liked this bit:
Fleet Admiral Mininela Erinen wrote: The first is to avoid lengthy and costly litigation which will waste man hours that could otherwise be used defending the State at a time of heightened alert.
Because the lawyers are really gonna be out on the front line of defense, right? But hey, now they can be laid off, because those man-hours don't need to be budgeted!
No? That's not how it works? Those military lawyers would still be commissioned and working on cases either way? Huh.
And of course...
Same guy! wrote: the SAF accepts no liability or responsibility for the loss of the 4,691 Quafe Company personnel who were killed in the incident.
GÇ£We do however acknowledge that at the time of the incident, the vessels and personnel involved were within Caldari borders, under the jurisdiction of the SAF, and were under instruction from Caldari Customs.
"The completely unarmed freighters were already pulled over by us, and we totally admit that our guys shot them under orders from our officers, but it totally wasn't our fault.."
The real shame of it is... none of the other Empires would've behaved any differently in this situation. Payoffs and lies, payoffs and lies. |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Schmidt's Sewing Suits and Spaceships
462
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:09:11 -
[436] - Quote
Any updates on this yet?
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2138
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:11:53 -
[437] - Quote
Never explain. Never apologize -- and if you are forced to say sorry, make it clear in no uncertain terms you are not sorry.
I would have been disappointed if the SAF had conducted themselves otherwise. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7682
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:42:46 -
[438] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them.
As opposed to the citizens of other organisations, of course.
Note, here, that these citizens should have expected the QUAFE CORPORATION to have fought for their interests - not the CBD and not the Customs service. Yes - still a Caldari corporation (apparently) but there is no expectation of the State as a whole, here - I can only hope the deal reached by the Quafe corp. provides for the families of the lost crew, since no malfeasance on their part has been proven.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3932
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:49:48 -
[439] - Quote
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Any updates on this yet?
. . . you mean on the thing that just had an update linked? |
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Schmidt's Sewing Suits and Spaceships
462
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:50:57 -
[440] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:Any updates on this yet? . . . you mean on the thing that just had an update linked?
To be honest, I had this page open and my NEOCOM running for hours and forgot to refresh before I posted. I suppose I did, then!
I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3933
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 21:56:45 -
[441] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ayallah wrote:The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them. As opposed to the citizens of other organisations, of course.
I'm just gonna take a moment here, Pieter, and tell you that you're wrong. I have an organization that I belong to, for example. It's got other people in it, and they each have very specific roles and positions.
And you should not, under any circumstances, believe that I would ever come close to assigning a revenue stream value to my mother.
And I somehow down the members of the small social organizations called 'families' that each of those 4,691 people belonged to feel differently.
You're normally a smart guy, Pieter, but I think you're a little off-base with that one. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
435
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 22:11:07 -
[442] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them. Shouldn't defending the rights of the employees while they are doing their job rest on the shoulders of the employer? Quafe just cancelled all litigation and according to the Scope experts chose a check without drawing any substantial criticism at all, that's kinda bizarre. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3935
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 22:25:47 -
[443] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Shouldn't defending the rights of the employees while they are doing their job rest on the shoulders of the employer? Quafe just cancelled all litigation and according to the Scope experts chose a check without drawing any substantial criticism at all, that's kinda bizarre.
We don't know just how big that check really was. I mean, the 'educated estimates' are what? 500bn? But is that really even close to likely? Foment an international incident during a time of crisis, and you get a slap on the wrist? C'mon. If Quafe really settled for chump change like that, they need to cut their prices in half. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7683
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 01:23:57 -
[444] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ayallah wrote:The State proves again to its citizens that their lives are worth nothing more than the lost revenue to replace them. As opposed to the citizens of other organisations, of course. I'm just gonna take a moment here, Pieter, and tell you that you're wrong. I have an organization that I belong to, for example. It's got other people in it, and they each have very specific roles and positions. And you should not, under any circumstances, believe that I would ever come close to assigning a revenue stream value to my mother. And I somehow down the members of the small social organizations called 'families' that each of those 4,691 people belonged to feel differently. You're normally a smart guy, Pieter, but I think you're a little off-base with that one.
I imagine the Quafe board of directors feels different about THEIR mothers, too. When I lose a crewmember, though, I ship their bodies home and I pay an honorarium based on their service and the manner of their passing. I don't know the mothers of all of my crews. I don't even know MY mother.
I do have sympathy with the families of the lost - but I'm aware that my sympathies and an empty sack are basically worth the price of the sack. Anyone who loses crews and claims to treat them all like family is lying or deluded - the grief would break you. Sometimes it breaks you anyway.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
981
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 03:27:19 -
[445] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Never explain. Never apologize -- and if you are forced to say sorry, make it clear in no uncertain terms you are not sorry. Did you get this off a 'red pill' article on the galnet about how to be an alpha personality and stop letting people walk all over you?
Because it reads like what a teenage boy would write.
As strength goes.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7684
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 05:23:01 -
[446] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Never explain. Never apologize -- and if you are forced to say sorry, make it clear in no uncertain terms you are not sorry. Did you get this off a 'red pill' article on the galnet about how to be an alpha personality and stop letting people walk all over you? Because it reads like what a teenage boy would write. It's standard corporate lawyerese, I am afraid.
Explaining makes it sound like you were justifying yourself. Apologizing suggests you're admitting culpability. Saying that you're sorry suggests that you've got something to be sorry for.
Veiki is simply displaying her experience in corporatist protocols.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen. Atlas. Alliance
956
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 05:38:17 -
[447] - Quote
I am pleased this is resolved, the State didn't apologize, but they took responsibility for their actions in their own way and that is a better move than an insincere apology. All the state needs to do, is look after itself, be responsible, and not try to export their culture or government and that will make me happy. The loss of life is regrettable, but to be fair capsuleers kill numbers like that on a daily basis.
I would like to know if the chain of command was broken to have this situation happen, but I suppose it doesn't really matter too much, I am sure if it was those responsible will be punished appropriately. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3940
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 05:49:03 -
[448] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:I am pleased this is resolved, the State didn't apologize, but they took responsibility for their actions
No... no, they in fact specifically did not:
Admiral Erinen wrote:in conclusion, the SAF accepts no liability or responsibility for the loss of the 4,691 Quafe Company personnel who were killed in the incident.
GÇ£We do however acknowledge that at the time of the incident, the vessels and personnel involved were within Caldari borders, under the jurisdiction of the SAF, and were under instruction from Caldari Customs. The agreement of a settlement with the Quafe Company is neither admission nor confirmation of either liability or responsibility for the incident.GÇ¥
They paid Quafe off, and then went out of their way to not take responsibility for their actions. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2139
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 06:16:12 -
[449] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Never explain. Never apologize -- and if you are forced to say sorry, make it clear in no uncertain terms you are not sorry. Did you get this off a 'red pill' article on the galnet about how to be an alpha personality and stop letting people walk all over you? Because it reads like what a teenage boy would write.
It goes like this: If there is no conviction of a crime, then by the letter of the law and the legal record no crime was committed.
As such, while I may be many things, I am no critic of the SAF and the brave women and men in uniform who comprise it and whose service I thank. Especially not when I feel there is nothing at all to criticize. The organizations involved have settled a dispute to their own satisfaction and no malfeasance was proven in a court of law.
As far as I'm concerned if there is nothing to justify, then there is little more that need be said. |
Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
982
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 06:45:00 -
[450] - Quote
The deaths is what there is to justify. The 'brave' people who destroyed unarmed freighters in warships I am sure are comforted that they committed no legal crime.
I am not surprised that the Caldari have taken this to mean that no wrongdoing took place. A Caldari cannot see something is wrong unless a corporate memo informs them they should open their eyes.
As strength goes.
|
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2139
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 07:19:06 -
[451] - Quote
Ayallah wrote: A Caldari cannot see something is wrong unless a corporate memo informs them they should open their eyes.
The State, in her relations with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right, or wrong, our State.
|
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1023
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 08:24:48 -
[452] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:A Caldari cannot see something is wrong unless a corporate memo informs them they should open their eyes. I'd take that over a bunch of Summit heckling from the usual suspects, to be sure.
Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
|
ValentinaDLM
Remember The Fallen. Atlas. Alliance
957
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 08:39:49 -
[453] - Quote
Arrendis, I don't care what the statement said, they paid. That is being responsible. If the State wants to save face that is fine, so long as compensation happens, I don't care what they call it, actions matter more. Sounds to me like you just want to see the state lose face in the scenario and I don't see how that benefits anyone.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1941
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 09:02:20 -
[454] - Quote
Throwing money at a screw-up to make a problem go away is not 'being responsible'. That is being irresponsibly delinquent in their duty to expose the failure points in the system that allowed the event to occur in the first place, and ensuring that they are rectified in order to avoid such failure in the future.
Taking responsibility is being responsible. Refuting it and undoubtedly lying through their teeth is most certainly not.
If you can't see what the benefit is in acknowledging failure in order to rectify it, you're seriously short-sighted. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1024
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 10:30:34 -
[455] - Quote
Arguably a sizeable fine or settlement will be more effective in promoting real change in a corporate structure. More so than any amount of fake tear-stained statements of regret, or token political firings. I know the sov-shufflers like to throw supercapitals into the woodchipper for fun and profit, but still - if your underlings or procedures just cost you 500 billion ISK because of some (allegedly) stupid circumstances, wouldn't you make some real and rational changes?
Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3946
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 12:24:48 -
[456] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Arguably a sizeable fine or settlement will be more effective in promoting real change in a corporate structure. More so than any amount of fake tear-stained statements of regret, or token political firings. I know the sov-shufflers like to throw supercapitals into the woodchipper for fun and profit, but still - if your underlings or procedures just cost you 500 billion ISK because of some (allegedly) stupid circumstances, wouldn't you make some real and rational changes?
The fact that the hypothetical 500bnGÇöbecause the only number offered is specifically said to be pure speculationGÇöis the less onerous option for the SAF should tell you something. Do I believe they're going to make changes? No, I do not. Not when they can get away with paying a pocket-change level fine. |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
1028
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 12:42:28 -
[457] - Quote
So. Either Quafe is cynical enough to accept "hypothetical pocket change" to ignore this alleged crass mass murder, or maybe things are somehow different from what you're claiming.
Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
435
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 14:39:54 -
[458] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Shouldn't defending the rights of the employees while they are doing their job rest on the shoulders of the employer? Quafe just cancelled all litigation and according to the Scope experts chose a check without drawing any substantial criticism at all, that's kinda bizarre. We don't know just how big that check really was. I mean, the 'educated estimates' are what? 500bn? But is that really even close to likely? Foment an international incident during a time of crisis, and you get a slap on the wrist? C'mon. If Quafe really settled for chump change like that, they need to cut their prices in half. The amount is beyond the point so I have no idea why are you focusing on it.
Employer chose to drop all litigation instead of pursuing the case in which his employees were the injured party, doing so employer didn't get any substantial criticism from the press or the public that's what I find bizarre. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3948
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 15:03:15 -
[459] - Quote
Well, here's the thing: Quafe is more or less at the mercy of the State as far as compensation and remuneration goes. Are they being a bunch of spineless little crapstains for taking whatever settlement is being offered, instead of demanding accountability?
Yup.
Did I even for one moment ever expect a Gallente soft drink corporation to be anything more than spineless crapstains?
Nope.
I did, however, have some hope that the CCS/SAF would opt for a full accounting of an incident that led to the deaths of State citizens. Not a lot, mind you, but some. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
437
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 17:56:22 -
[460] - Quote
Is there a reason to have different standards for the involved parties if the argument that's being made is moralistic in it's core? If argument is being made on a moral basis about "assigning a revenue stream value to a human life" then why amount even enters the picture?
Let me reiterate. If "assigning a revenue stream value to a life" - is bad in it's core, then amount is irrelevant. On the other hand if "assigning a revenue stream value to a life" - is an effective penalty in certain circumstances, then amount is indeed relevant but there is no more moral argument (ergo moral outcry is nothing more than a farce).
Also it should be noted, saying that Quafe is just a "Gallente soft drink corporation" is a huge misconception. Their political weight for a corp should not be underestimated. |
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3965
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 18:09:18 -
[461] - Quote
When the point being addressed is whether or not the involved parties are found morally wanting for reducing human lives to revenue-stream equivalents, the amount is, indeed, irrelevant.
In that situation, both parties are, of course, held to be equally contemptible.
However, when the point being addressed is the assertion that a 'sizeable[sic] fine or settlement' represents an effective way to promote change, then the amount becomes relevant, as part of determining whether or not there has, in fact, been a 'sizeable[sic] fine or settlement'.
So, while I agree with you that the amount is completely irrelevant when evaluating whether or not Quafe and the SAF are morally bankrupt in their handling of this matter, that's a separate issue from evaluating the validity of Jev's assertion.
As for the 'different standards'... I wouldn't say there are different standards, only that I had previously held the two companies in different regard. I am more disappointed in the SAF than I am in Quafe, because there is very little the Gallente soft drink giant can do that will lower my estimation of them.
Does that make sense? |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2140
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 18:32:08 -
[462] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:When the point being addressed is whether or not the involved parties are found morally wanting for reducing human lives to revenue-stream equivalents, the amount is, indeed, irrelevant.
In that situation, both parties are, of course, held to be equally contemptible.
Respondent is a capsuleer speaking about the morality of reducing human life to revenue streams.
Thinking.
It's like someone who is involved either first hand or third party with reducing human life to revenue streams is suddenly outraged by this fact occurring elsewhere in their own view. But logically, if they view this as contemptible in this case then they are contemptible in their own case.
Hmm. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
437
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 18:52:48 -
[463] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:When the point being addressed is whether or not the involved parties are found morally wanting for reducing human lives to revenue-stream equivalents, the amount is, indeed, irrelevant. In that situation, both parties are, of course, held to be equally contemptible. However, when the point being addressed is the assertion that a 'sizeable[sic] fine or settlement' represents an effective way to promote change, then the amount becomes relevant, as part of determining whether or not there has, in fact, been a 'sizeable[sic] fine or settlement'. So, while I agree with you that the amount is completely irrelevant when evaluating whether or not Quafe and the SAF are morally bankrupt in their handling of this matter, that's a separate issue from evaluating the validity of Jev's assertion. ... Does that make sense? It does indeed make sense. I do have to say, without proper quoting conversation becomes more like crime link chart than a proper conversation.
Arrendis wrote:As for the 'different standards'... I wouldn't say there are different standards, only that I had previously held the two companies in different regard. I am more disappointed in the SAF than I am in Quafe, because there is very little the Gallente soft drink giant can do that will lower my estimation of them.
Well, Quafe had a diplomatic role between Amarr/Gallente at some point and I think they are the only one from the Fed that has legal corporation status in the State. So they are quite esteemed across the cluster.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3968
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 20:31:08 -
[464] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Respondent is a capsuleer speaking about the morality of reducing human life to revenue streams.
Thinking.
It's like someone who is involved either first hand or third party with reducing human life to revenue streams is suddenly outraged by this fact occurring elsewhere in their own view. But logically, if they view this as contemptible in this case then they are contemptible in their own case.
Hmm.
BREAKING NEWS: DEDICATED LOGISTICS PILOT DOESN'T THINK KILLING PEOPLE ON UNARMED SHIPS OUT OF HAND IS A PARTICULARLY MORAL THING TO DO!!!
I'm sorry, what was that you were saying again? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3969
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 20:36:48 -
[465] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote: I do have to say, without proper quoting conversation becomes more like crime link chart than a proper conversation.
Yeah... yeah it does. Heh.
Quote: Well, Quafe had a diplomatic role between Amarr/Gallente at some point and I think they are the only one from the Fed that has legal corporation status in the State. So they are quite esteemed across the cluster.
Yup. Quafe did a lot of things to get access to more markets. Such nobility. So admirable.
Don't get me wrong, I don't fault them for that... but it's not like any of it was done for any reason except fattening up the old wallet. And really, I have to admit that diplomatic relations between the cluster's two bloated, pushy, 'we want you all to do things our way' powers? Not exactly a high mark in my book. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1764
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 02:16:59 -
[466] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:James Syagrius wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed. Actually it's not and I think you know better. Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it. Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly. Your weekly reminder, as promised. While I guess, I should feel honored that you find it worth your time to do this for me, but consider your reminder duly noted and disregarded. Mr. Toov. I will forgo my promised weekly reminder as we have since our last conversation received additional information. But never fear, I wonGÇÖt forget, letGÇÖs say, in a month if additional clarification isnGÇÖt forthcoming. WellGǪ I didnGÇÖt need to issue my promised monthly update to Mr. Toov, which was due on the 30th.
But is anyone really surprised? The Caldari in the State have theirGǪ honor. I can think of no better exemplification of such.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2142
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 14:18:56 -
[467] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Respondent is a capsuleer speaking about the morality of reducing human life to revenue streams.
Thinking.
It's like someone who is involved either first hand or third party with reducing human life to revenue streams is suddenly outraged by this fact occurring elsewhere in their own view. But logically, if they view this as contemptible in this case then they are contemptible in their own case.
Hmm. BREAKING NEWS: DEDICATED LOGISTICS PILOT DOESN'T THINK KILLING PEOPLE ON UNARMED SHIPS OUT OF HAND IS A PARTICULARLY MORAL THING TO DO!!!I'm sorry, what was that you were saying again?
Pointing out some contradictions for my own amusement.
For example, the contradiction inherent in your belief that killing people on unarmed ships out of hand is a particularly moral thing to do. GSF does in fact kill people on unarmed ships and you are ostensibly a Director in the organization of which they are part. If such an act truly is contra to your moral belief system, and if your position in leadership in the organization which prosecutes such potentially morally reprehensible conduct (according to yourself) then would you not use your moral agency to do something about it? Even if only to resign in protest against such contemptible behaviour.
That would at least lend some sort of credence that you actually believe what it is that you state if only to prevent any parallels being drawn between your own evaluations on the potential moral bankruptcy of the leadership of either Quafe or SAF over their handling of the killing of people on unarmed ships while you are also in the leadership of an organization that does much the same -- albeit on a far more regular basis -- which by your own professed moral standards would make you equally morally bankrupt.
Even as a dedicated logistics pilot while you may not pull the trigger on the reduction of human life in order to preserve and defend Alliance revenue streams -- such as moon mining operations or anomaly sites -- you enable those who do.
However the salient issue to me is not whatever personal blinkers you might have put on, I certainly have my own. Rather that a quick parse of this thread displays similar expressions of supposed moral outrage that make me remark to myself: My it seems a lot of these capsuleers involved in the present war economy and self-professed mercenary types have suddenly had some kind of moral epiphany regarding the loss of human life at least where commentary on current events is concerned yet seem content in continuing their present courses of action otherwise.
When asking myself, "Why could that be so?"
The answer that most readily comes to mind is: Oh that good old appeal to moral exigency for a way to try and score some agenda pushing points while shedding fallacious tears of outrage over the loss of life. Hoping of course no one notices the moral hypocrisy of those who would espouse such a stance while partaking either personally or organizationally in the loss of life.
Which really won't change the outcome of events nor the end result: The histrionic political theatre groups will find another cause c+¬l+¿bre to find themselves no doubt readily outraged over; maybe a few local governments in the Federation will have representatives attempt to pass token legislation of outrage which may or may not pass; Galnet conspiracy groups will speculate if it was all related to Nyx fuel melting tritanium beams; and in the State I suspect most citizens will look on it all as just the usual foreigners and those not involved being outraged over two registered companies reaching a settlement agreement in a liability case while finding little to fault in the SAF of which they are either current or former members. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4015
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 16:29:58 -
[468] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: For example, the contradiction inherent in your belief that killing people on unarmed ships out of hand is a particularly moral thing to do. GSF does in fact kill people on unarmed ships and you are ostensibly a Director in the organization of which they are part.
Ah, but you're leaving off one of the key bits there, aren't you? Killing people on unarmed ships out of hand. Miniluv doesn't do that. Miniluv targets capsuleer vessels only, and as we've established many, many times here on the IGS, all capsuleer trade feeds into the permanent warfare economy.
If it's not ours, then as far as we know, it belongs to someone who does, has, or likely will want to shoot at us.
Now, if you want to say that's a pretty flimsy fig leaf to hide behind, I won't necessarily say you're wrong. However, it also happens to be true. As I've said to Aria, quite publicly: we all deserve a bullet to the brain. Nor have I ever denied being an enabler of death and destruction. As I've said: I'm a Logistics pilot. I keep people from blowing up so they can keep making people blow up.
Miniluv does not, however, execute freighters belonging to the Imperium or loosely-allied organizations. That would be wrong. That would be like... I don't know... blowing up a convoy of freighters full of our own citizens.
However, and I think this may be an epiphany for you: Morality's a funny thing. Truth is binary, for example. Something's either true, or it's not. If it's partly true, then parts of it are, and parts of it ain't, and you can identify what's what.
Morality, on the other hand, has a whole 'nother setting.
There's 'Moral', or course... and there's 'immoral', and those are the two settings people seem to love to get hung up on...
... but then there's also amoral: actions which aren't inherently moral, and they're not inherently immoral. As an example: choosing which socks to wear? Not a moral decision. Picking one set of socks over another is an amoral decision.
Killing people on unarmed ships out of handGÇöie: just for the gigglesGÇöis definitely not a moral thing to do. Killing people, in fact, is not a 'moral' thing to do. It can be a necessary action to avoid the immoral act of letting someone murder helpless innocents, but while stopping the murder is moral, the act of killing isn't. That doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do, if it's the only real option you've got.... but that's why phrases like 'the best of a lot of bad choices' exist.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty ok with being a basically amoral person. Not immoral, mind you, I leave that to jerkwads like Napkins. But amoral? Yeah, I'm ok with amorality. And like I said: I expect no less than amorality from Quafe. Caldari Customs, on the other hand, is mandated on public service. They exist to protect State citizens. They are called on to be moral.
And that's why I'm disappointed in them.
It's not 'omg, you did something I wouldn't do!' it's 'hey, jerkoffs, aren't you supposed to be the good guys? Aren't you supposed to be better than bastards like us?'
I mean, if the 'protect and serve' crowd is going to start acting worse than the freakin' Ministry of Love... damn. Some folks are gonna have to start glassing planets just to keep from getting a positive security status. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
439
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 18:27:18 -
[469] - Quote
You are jumping to strange conclusions deluding moral and immoral which can be only applicable to decisions affecting others, especially with that sock example. By making arguments about cost of human life you are showing the opposite of amoral behavior, if you would be amoral there would be no argument at all. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4032
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 19:04:07 -
[470] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:You are jumping to strange conclusions deluding moral and immoral which can be only applicable to decisions affecting others, especially with that sock example. By making arguments about cost of human life you are showing the opposite of amoral behavior, if you would be amoral there would be no argument at all.
I've never claimed to be perfect
Nor, if you've ever heard my sleep-poetry, particularly sane. |
|
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
440
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 20:03:09 -
[471] - Quote
Heh, well hard to argue with that, probably even impossible. I take it "sleep-poetry" is just poetry about dreams and not an idiom of some sort? |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4034
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 20:14:16 -
[472] - Quote
Actually, it's a reference to what looks to have been an open comm-feed while in low-power regenerative mode after 3 days in the pod. In effect, I was cat-napping, and the pod transmitted brain-activity to an IGS-related channel.
And since I'm not going to submit it to the writing contest:
My Damaged Brain wrote: Darkness surrounds everything. Silence drowns out the stars. There is no warmth, no cold. To be cold, something must exist
A million million suns cannot provide the day. Unending night cannot bring sleep. Time ceases to be when now is all, all is now. Burning. Burning forever. Death lights the way.
The great beasts herald the end. Gods and monsters shall follow the storm.
The heavens split with the sounding of the gjallarhorn the dragon endures and all is whiteness n++ fire unending white hot white cold cold stone what is lost is nothing what remains, begins again the dragon dies, the dragon endures defeat from victory and nothing changes
Not what I'd call 'structured verse', but... eh. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
441
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:08:16 -
[473] - Quote
Wow, that's actually an induviduation when ego and soul are becoming one self with all that beast/dragon fighting, just saying.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4043
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:21:16 -
[474] - Quote
Actually, it's semi-conscious REM-sleep imagery from B-R5RB. 'The Dragon' is Sort Dragon. The 'whiteness' is 800km of anchored bubbles we were in the center of, the Gjallarhorn is, well, Doomsdays (the Ragnarok's standard DD is, in fact, a 'gjallarhorn'), and so on. |
Teinyhr
Ourumur
915
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 22:01:24 -
[475] - Quote
Can I just say that I find it refreshing and beautiful when someone has the patience and eloquence to outjargon a Caldari? |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2150
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 15:30:16 -
[476] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
However, and I think this may be an epiphany for you: Morality's a funny thing. Truth is binary, for example. Something's either true, or it's not. If it's partly true, then parts of it are, and parts of it ain't, and you can identify what's what.
Morality, on the other hand, has a whole 'nother setting.
There's 'Moral', or course... and there's 'immoral', and those are the two settings people seem to love to get hung up on...
... but then there's also amoral: actions which aren't inherently moral, and they're not inherently immoral. As an example: choosing which socks to wear? Not a moral decision. Picking one set of socks over another is an amoral decision.
Killing people on unarmed ships out of handGÇöie: just for the gigglesGÇöis definitely not a moral thing to do. Killing people, in fact, is not a 'moral' thing to do. It can be a necessary action to avoid the immoral act of letting someone murder helpless innocents, but while stopping the murder is moral, the act of killing isn't. That doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do, if it's the only real option you've got.... but that's why phrases like 'the best of a lot of bad choices' exist.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty ok with being a basically amoral person. Not immoral, mind you, I leave that to jerkwads like Napkins. But amoral? Yeah, I'm ok with amorality. And like I said: I expect no less than amorality from Quafe. Caldari Customs, on the other hand, is mandated on public service. They exist to protect State citizens. They are called on to be moral.
Thank you Arrendis.
I might apologize for some degree of being disingenuous in my statements -- I was curious. Over the years many have professed moral outrage over one thing or another but when pressed they tend to get rather emotive when required to qualify their moral basis at least to some degree. That, and mostly declare me a sophist. I simply think it fair, that if one brings morality into a discussion then one should at least define their moral basis, particularly when it is they themselves who bring it up.
No, morality is not binary, but neither is it an absolute -- at least unless you're an Amarrian whose morality derived from their faith demands that it be applied to all of humanity -- because the first principles chosen to construct a moral system are on the whole purely arbitrary to me. I might be able to say the moral system of the Amarr is on the whole internally consistent and axiomatic, but since it is derived from the first principles of there being a God from their religion, and I, for my own reasons do not agree with those principles then I equally do not abide by everything else that may follow morally.
The morality of the officers involved in this incident is equally wholly arbitrary, but being Caldari, I can at least understand to some degree the morality from their perspective. What is to be considered moral to a Caldari citizen is the welfare of the whole and the community which at its highest level finds its embodiment in the State and which is to be considered the highest moral authority. The SMA and its orders carry moral weight because they carry with it the authority of the people and the State. If one prescribes to the moral authority of the State then not carrying out State orders is an immoral act. As such the situation involves a moral contradiction that had to be resolved:
a) Commit the immoral decision of countermanding orders derived from a State authority in the maintenance of the quarantine zone without due cause. b) Commit the immoral decision of killing State citizens.
Additionally, since the quarantine zone was established to prevent the transmission of a virus with the potential to kill millions if not billions then a violation of that zone represents a significant future threat. As such, in my mind, the moral requirements to prevent future significant loss of life and follow the orders of the State justified the immorality of killing State citizens in this instance.
While some might see kind of cover-up in how the situation might have been resolved, and that's a legitimate perspective to have, I still believe in the moral capability of the SMA and its officers and if any transgressions are to be found then they will surely find it. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4102
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 16:21:15 -
[477] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: a) Commit the immoral decision of countermanding orders derived from a State authority in the maintenance of the quarantine zone without due cause. b) Commit the immoral decision of killing State citizens.
Additionally, since the quarantine zone was established to prevent the transmission of a virus with the potential to kill millions if not billions then a violation of that zone represents a significant future threat. As such, in my mind, the moral requirements to prevent future significant loss of life and follow the orders of the State justified the immorality of killing State citizens in this instance.
While some might see kind of cover-up in how the situation might have been resolved, and that's a legitimate perspective to have, I still believe in the moral capability of the SMA and its officers and if any transgressions are to be found then they will surely find it.
Except, of course, that this wasn't in or about the Quarantine Zone. This was about the border. The Federation-State border was closed to Gallente baseliner traffic entering the State. The case could be made that the eralier, more vague declaration of closure applied to all Gallente traffic leaving, as well, but as has been established, Quafe is a State corporation as well, and none of the publicly-reported closures had any bearing on State traffic.
So, iwthout consideration of the Quarantine Zone, that entire paragraph falls away.
We're then left with 'countermanding orders' vs 'killing State citizens'.
Countermanding whose orders? Again: there was no prohibition against State baseliner traffic crossing the border. Does the shape of the freighter make that much differnce? Would they have been spared if they'd been in Caldari hulls?
Is that supposed to be a moral position?
That's the moral question of 'what happened?'. Then we get into the morality of what happened next, and that can be broken up into two more phases. First: The initial cover-up of 'what happened?', and then the extended cover-up of 'how do we keep from admiting responsibility in the bublic record?'
As far as the initial cover-up goes, it clearly begins immediately with the claims of how the situation unfolded in the first place. The Customs Serivce claims that seven freighters which were not fired on prior to entering warp all began to break-up upon existing warpGÇöa behavior never observed in any warp-capable ship, as far as we can tell.
So something that's never observed before happens not once, but seven times, all in the same place at the same time.
The freighters breaking up posed a threat to the station. Have you ever come out of warp? What speed do you come out of warp at? Exactly what threat do you suppose 0m/s debris would pose to anything?
The station is claimed to have been damaged by debrisGÇöas someone who's seen titans explode within two kilometers of a station, I can tell you: debris would not penetrate those shields.
And that's all before we get to the cover-up about resolving the situation. That's just the initial cover-up about what happened.
None of the shop's scanner logs from the Caldari Customs Service vessels corroborate the existence of debrisGÇöif they did, they'd have been entered as evidence. Instead, the only telemetry from those ships that was entered into the record was their weapons-fire.
The sensor logs from the station that supposedly sustained damage from the debris were not entered into evidenceGÇöthey, too, should have corroborated the claim that the freighters were breaking up. Why weren't they presented?
Seven flight data recorders, instruments designed to survive the violent destruction of a vessel even if it's a freighter struck by a Doomsday, were all conveniently damaged in just such a way that the surviving data couldn't even be assembled into a composite record of events. Really? This is supposed to be believable?
That's the real crux of the matter when looking at the morality of the actions-after-the-fact: there [is[/i] a cover-up. Repeated ones. Tell me, whens' the last time you saw someone who believed they acted morally, who believed they did the right thing, even if it came at a terrible cost, feel the need to lie about what happened?
In my experience, when someone has made what they felt was a necessary, if horrific decision, that is exactly what they will tell you: 'I didn't like doing it. I'm sorry I had to do it. But there was no other choice'. They also tend to be the ones openly saying 'let's get all of the information out there, because I did what had to be done, and I don't want to be haunted by the nagging suspicion that I could have done something differently'.
People who think they did the right thing don't try to hide what they did. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3935
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 16:30:40 -
[478] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I might apologize for some degree of being disingenuous in my statements.... That, and mostly declare me a sophist.
These might sometimes have a little to do with each other, Veiki. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3219
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 16:47:54 -
[479] - Quote
On the one hand, I fully understand and support decision on our command. Wasting time and resources on such insignificant matter is unacceptable, and while we are at the war with the Federation, we need everything to defeat this ancient enemy.
But on the other hand, I would really like to know, what gallente were trying to do and why their half-destroyed freighters were on the collision course. Learning the details of this insidious Quafe attack could be used to prevent this situation in the future and to protect Caldari citizens from gallente shenanigans and terrorism.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4105
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 16:52:34 -
[480] - Quote
I'd think it would be more important for you to investigate the Gallente fashion plot in the 'Capsuleer Muses' thread. |
|
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
29
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 17:00:46 -
[481] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:On the one hand, I fully understand and support decision on our command. Wasting time and resources on such insignificant matter is unacceptable, and while we are at the war with the Federation, we need everything to defeat this ancient enemy.
But on the other hand, I would really like to know, what gallente were trying to do and why their half-destroyed freighters were on the collision course. Learning the details of this insidious Quafe attack could be used to prevent this situation in the future and to protect Caldari citizens from gallente shenanigans and terrorism. Kim you are a warlord you lead your private army and you are corrupt and fat and you kill anyone that opposes you and your oh press Caldari people |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3220
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 17:21:37 -
[482] - Quote
kul Shaishi wrote:Diana Kim wrote:On the one hand, I fully understand and support decision on our command. Wasting time and resources on such insignificant matter is unacceptable, and while we are at the war with the Federation, we need everything to defeat this ancient enemy.
But on the other hand, I would really like to know, what gallente were trying to do and why their half-destroyed freighters were on the collision course. Learning the details of this insidious Quafe attack could be used to prevent this situation in the future and to protect Caldari citizens from gallente shenanigans and terrorism. Kim you are a warlord you lead your private army and you are corrupt and fat and you kill anyone that opposes you and your oh press Caldari people There are many enemies of the State that spread lies and slanders about us and me in particular. But this one? This one is a real marvel. Tell me, gallente propagandists, in which gutter did you pick this little "diamond"?
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
31
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 17:35:44 -
[483] - Quote
enemies of the State You and you're already begun to sound like a warlord. The Kim clique Is already in reality And you're not loyal to the CEP and the Dragonaurs also warlords |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3221
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 17:40:36 -
[484] - Quote
kul Shaishi wrote:enemies of the State You and you're already begun to sound like a warlord. The Kim clique Is already in reality And you're not loyal to the CEP and the Dragonaurs also warlords Try harder, gallente bootlicker. You are just laughable. Don't bother me until you will manage to come with something coherent, or at least remotely resembling a truth.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7699
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 17:54:37 -
[485] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
That's the real crux of the matter when looking at the morality of the actions-after-the-fact: there is a cover-up. Repeated ones. Tell me, whens' the last time you saw someone who believed they acted morally, who believed they did the right thing, even if it came at a terrible cost, feel the need to lie about what happened?
In my experience, when someone has made what they felt was a necessary, if horrific decision, that is exactly what they will tell you: 'I didn't like doing it. I'm sorry I had to do it. But there was no other choice'. They also tend to be the ones openly saying 'let's get all of the information out there, because I did what had to be done, and I don't want to be haunted by the nagging suspicion that I could have done something differently'.
People who think they did the right thing don't try to hide what they did.
I know that daring to advance an opinion that disagrees with you makes me a corporate shill, but it is frequently the case that evidence is deemed inadmissible to a court of inquiry on the basis of it compromising state security. If you've never done something necessary and unpleasant that you know you're going to have to lie about, then you've never worked for a government.
In that event it is often the case that the officer being investigated is hung out to dry like washing if his organisation doesn't feel like protecting him, or a settlement is reached in order to avoid the question of why the obvious evidence never shows up on either side of the case.
So, yes, it seems like something has been covered up - but that's all we know. I'm also going to point out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You can certainly point out that the black boxes have obviously been suppressed - and I'd be forced to agree with you - but that is all you can point out with any degree of credibility. Claiming that you know why the black boxes were suppressed and that, therefore, you know precisely what was on the black boxes is false.
Let me enumerate this more plainly:
- You know the black boxes were not entered.
- You can infer the black boxes were suppressed.
- You do NOT know who suppressed them.
- You do NOT know why they were suppressed.
- You do NOT know what they would have shown if they were entered into evidence.
- You do NOT know how they would have altered the findings of the Inquiry if they were entered into evidence.
I'm fairly sure that if the local Customs detachment was on Crash and just decided to murder seven freighters full of Caldari (even faux-Caldari) citizens on a drug fuelled whim, then they would have hung them from the nearest signal tower. None the less, whoever was behind the ordering of it clearly prefers that narrative to whatever actually happened - which makes me suspect there was either a humongous 'official' mistake made or there was a cause to it that they've decided to keep private.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4114
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 18:09:58 -
[486] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: I know that daring to advance an opinion that disagrees with you makes me a corporate shill
Nonsense, Pieter, you're a loyal citizen of the State. There's no reason we can't hold differing opinions without one of us 'shilling'. That would just get into... well, Kim-esque levels of making everything about us.
Quote:but it is frequently the case that evidence is deemed inadmissible to a court of inquiry on the basis of it compromising state security.
Sensor data showing the existence or nonexistence of debris would compromise State security? Really?
Quote:If you've never done something necessary and unpleasant that you know you're going to have to lie about, then you've never worked for a government.
Those situations, Pieter, tend to be the ones where the government takes at least a little bit of care to ensure the questions are never asked. In this situation, that would've been 'the freighters all self-destructed and look, we conveniently have flight data recorder logs that show it'.
The lies, in such things, tend to be competent, and thought out ahead of time.
Quote:Claiming that you know why the black boxes were suppressed and that, therefore, you know precisely what was on the black boxes is false. Let me enumerate this more plainly:
- You know the black boxes were not entered.
- You can infer the black boxes were suppressed.
- You do NOT know who suppressed them.
- You do NOT know why they were suppressed.
- You do NOT know what they would have shown if they were entered into evidence.
- You do NOT know how they would have altered the findings of the Inquiry if they were entered into evidence.
I'm fairly sure that if the local Customs detachment was on Crash and just decided to murder seven freighters full of Caldari (even faux-Caldari) citizens on a drug fuelled whim, then they would have hung them from the nearest signal tower. None the less, whoever was behind the ordering of it clearly prefers that narrative to whatever actually happened - which makes me suspect there was either a humongous 'official' mistake made or there was a cause to it that they've decided to keep private.
Let's be clear: I've never said what those logs would show, only what those logs should show if the official story is true. The existence of debris around the freighters as they came out of warp is not a matter that would compromise State security. As for the freighters' recorders...
The recorders were in the hands of two groups: the freighter crews, and the Customs Service. The voice recorders on the freighters were working fine, and mention missile fire. Nothing about ships breaking up in warp (which you'd think they'd have noticed). Nothing about 'they know!' or any other indicators of suspicious activity among the crew.
So there's no indication of any motive for the freighter crews to have tampered with the data recorders. This indicates that we can, in fact, produce a reasonable hypothesis of who tampered with the data recorders.
Beyond that, all I've said about them is that it's mighty convenient and suspicious that they were all damaged in just the right way that between them, they can't account for any chunks of the missing minutes of flight time.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4114
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 18:15:24 -
[487] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You do NOT know why they were suppressed.
Just as a side note: of course we know why they were suppressed. They were suppressed because someone didn't want whatever's on them to be revealed. What, precisely, that is, remains a mystery of course. But nobody suppresses recordings because 'hey, let's just mess with people'.
I mean, I would, sure, but let's face it, I'm a jerk.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7701
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 20:05:56 -
[488] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You do NOT know why they were suppressed.
Just as a side note: of course we know why they were suppressed. They were suppressed because someone didn't want whatever's on them to be revealed. What, precisely, that is, remains a mystery of course. But nobody suppresses recordings because 'hey, let's just mess with people'. I mean, I would, sure, but let's face it, I'm a jerk.
Ah, sure. When I say you don't know why they were suppressed I don't mean that we don't know it was because whatever is on them was being suppressed, I mean that we don't know what precisely is on them that we aren't supposed to know.
All we know is that whatever would be revealed would be worse for the State than the settlement - which says that there was no malfeasance on the part of the Quafe convoy and that customs killed the ships for some good reason which they accept responsibility for.
I'm just very uncomfortable with people talking about the moral and ethical implications when we don't know the true story - and knowing that we don't know the true story is about the only thing that we DO know.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4122
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 20:15:57 -
[489] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: All we know is that whatever would be revealed would be worse for the State than the settlement - which says that there was no malfeasance on the part of the Quafe convoy and that customs killed the ships for some good reason which they accept responsibility for.
Uhm... except again, they don't.
Quote: Admiral Erinen closed the press conference by further elaborating on the position of the State Armed Forces. Her words have drawn strong criticism from within Federal borders after she stated that GÇ£in conclusion, the SAF accepts no liability or responsibility for the loss of the 4,691 Quafe Company personnel who were killed in the incident.
GÇ£We do however acknowledge that at the time of the incident, the vessels and personnel involved were within Caldari borders, under the jurisdiction of the SAF, and were under instruction from Caldari Customs. The agreement of a settlement with the Quafe Company is neither admission nor confirmation of either liability or responsibility for the incident.GÇ¥
So, no, Pieter. They don't accept responsibility for killing those ships. They diverted those ships. They fired on those ships. They killed every single person who somehow over multiple minutes of missile-fire failed to get to the escape pods, we're told... but they totally weren't responsible for doing the things they did.
I mean, I'll totally agree that they might not be suppressing the sensor logs because they'd show no debris. We don't know what they show. Maybe they show debris. Maybe they show escape pods. Maybe they show Jamyl Sarum showing up with a damned Jovian superweapon to blow the hell out of some freighters.
Whatever it is, though, don't say that Caldari Customs "killed the ships for some good reason which they accept responsibility for", because they went out of their wat to insist that they specifically don't. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7701
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 20:23:50 -
[490] - Quote
Well, duh. The whole point of the settlement is to limit the vulnerability of the State Armed Forces to further civil law suits by the families of the dead. Even if they'd executed each crewman on video, the settlement would be worthless to the SAF without that finding.
It's the point of the settlement. Limited liability.
But this is a court of law, it is legally proper - not truth.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4124
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 20:47:56 -
[491] - Quote
Never claimed otherwise. Just pointing out that you saying they'd accepted responsibility for their actions is kind exactly the opposite of true.
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2152
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 21:08:46 -
[492] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: That's the real crux of the matter when looking at the morality of the actions-after-the-fact: there is a cover-up. Repeated ones. Tell me, whens' the last time you saw someone who believed they acted morally, who believed they did the right thing, even if it came at a terrible cost, feel the need to lie about what happened?
In my experience, when someone has made what they felt was a necessary, if horrific decision, that is exactly what they will tell you: 'I didn't like doing it. I'm sorry I had to do it. But there was no other choice'. They also tend to be the ones openly saying 'let's get all of the information out there, because I did what had to be done, and I don't want to be haunted by the nagging suspicion that I could have done something differently'.
People who think they did the right thing don't try to hide what they did.
Yes, there are discrepancies and inconsistencies in the timeline of events as presented and I cannot pass any moral judgement on the issue without an accounting of the facts. I am leaning right now in best faith on the side of the SAF however I am also aware of the wider issues at play currently.
Second quarter corporate shareholder meetings should be coming up and if this matter remains in the public consciousness then those shareholders might push the Executive boards to place the matter before the next CEP quorum. Which would make sense since the matter involves both border security and the death of citizens by a State agency. The prospect of the SAF being placed before a CBT Special Investigation is, yes, is probably what the SAF leadership is trying to avoid. Because the CBT have their own moral obligation to discover the truth and if any wrongdoing occurred their special investigators have a rather well deserved reputation for being both apolitical and relentless.
This is why the settlement was pursued: to prevent any CBT inquiry. Given my own experiences in CBT courtrooms, being placed before an Arbiter is probably the last thing they want.
So this really is the game being played here. I don't want to pass a moral judgement on the SAF in the absence of all the evidence because it's the damn SAF. I'm also not blind to the inconsistencies here either or the potential palace intrigue that might have been going on because my conspiracy sensors are activated by the whole affair. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7705
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 21:15:02 -
[493] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Never claimed otherwise. Just pointing out that you saying they'd accepted responsibility for their actions is kind exactly the opposite of true.
It's a bit like when someone says "No offence, but..." and you damn well know they're going to cause offence. "This settlement doesn't indicate that the SAF accepts any responsibility or liability for...." means you damn well know they're accepting liability and responsibility in every sense except a legally binding one.
As Veiki says - comes the Arbiter, comes the Arbitration.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4131
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 21:46:27 -
[494] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: It's a bit like when someone says "No offence, but..." and you damn well know they're going to cause offence. "This settlement doesn't indicate that the SAF accepts any responsibility or liability for...." means you damn well know they're accepting liability and responsibility in every sense except a legally binding one.
Given the sheer size of the entity in question, the legally binding sense is basically the only one that matters. Throwing pocket change at the problem to make it go away doesn't really strike me as anything more than 'here, now shut up so we can ignore this'.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7710
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 01:37:13 -
[495] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: It's a bit like when someone says "No offence, but..." and you damn well know they're going to cause offence. "This settlement doesn't indicate that the SAF accepts any responsibility or liability for...." means you damn well know they're accepting liability and responsibility in every sense except a legally binding one.
Given the sheer size of the entity in question, the legally binding sense is basically the only one that matters. Throwing pocket change at the problem to make it go away doesn't really strike me as anything more than 'here, now shut up so we can ignore this'.
I'm fairly sure this is being paid attention to somewhere where it will do more good and cause fewer headlines.
Again, I'm pretty sure it happened for a reason, even if the reason is an enormous balls up. Enough money came from the settlement that I doubt the families of the lost will suffer poverty, and I'm pretty sure that if this was a stupid call by someone, then that person will pay for it.
Do I particularly want a show-trial that would likely target scapegoats? Newp. Do I particularly want SAF to be transparent with our enemies and competitors so that they can have a nice crow about it in public? I don't see the upside of that.
And, as I said, it's entirely possible all the evidence was suppressed for a good reason.
Someone wiser than me said, earlier, that this event isn't going to change anybody's mind about anything. I don't think the SAF are composed of mindless, feckless thugs and criminals. Some others have always thought that.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2156
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 10:24:57 -
[496] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: (I wonder who you are this time..)
In the waning days of that patriotic conflict that resulted from corporate secession sometimes referred to as The Exodus War as my direct primogenitor would have called it; a group of neuroscientists, cyberneticists and those kind of guys who think sticking nanometre thick meshes of electroencephalitic materials into people's brains just to see what happens explored that ever abstract of questions: Hey, how do we bring people back out of that wetgrave?
I'm not sure if results were as planned but hey out popped me: Infomorph ex nihilo. Guilty as charged.
So I am who I always am, which much like an AI programmer with a penchant for profanity is just stochastically... recursive.
Addendum: Yes, killing people is ostensibly morally wrong and all that. Just to remain tangentially on topic here. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4140
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 13:29:29 -
[497] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Do I particularly want a show-trial that would likely target scapegoats? Newp. Do I particularly want SAF to be transparent with our enemies and competitors so that they can have a nice crow about it in public? I don't see the upside of that.
I'd just like to say that I find it incredibly ironic that you're simultaneously saying 'I trust the SAF to have been moral actors in this' and 'I believe the SAF would find scapegoats and leave them swinging in the wind, rather than conduct an investigation in good faith that might expose systemic and cultural issues'.
If they're so trustworthy... why don't you trust them to conduct an honest investigation?
Transparency about obvious failures in policy and the chain of command means cleaning it up. Only an idiot would crow about his enemy fixing problems. Covering them up? Leaving them to fester? Oh, if the Gallente Senate wanted to 'crow' over the actions of their 'enemies', this would give them a much better moral and political position to do it from. They'd be painting this as Quafe being forced to accept money instead of justice, and "the SAF using hush money and the corrupt Caldari legal system to shelter and protect xenophobes and murderers".
It's a lot harder to pontificate about something like that when your 'enemy' can just say 'there was a problem. We've taken steps to correct it. We haven't hidden any of that. Now how are you doing with the FIO's shady activities around the Kyonoke Inquest?' |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3936
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 14:02:26 -
[498] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Transparency about obvious failures in policy and the chain of command means cleaning it up. Only an idiot would crow about his enemy fixing problems. Covering them up? Leaving them to fester? Oh, if the Gallente Senate wanted to 'crow' over the actions of their 'enemies', this would give them a much better moral and political position to do it from. They'd be painting this as Quafe being forced to accept money instead of justice, and "the SAF using hush money and the corrupt Caldari legal system to shelter and protect xenophobes and murderers".
It's a lot harder to pontificate about something like that when your 'enemy' can just say 'there was a problem. We've taken steps to correct it. We haven't hidden any of that. Now how are you doing with the FIO's shady activities around the Kyonoke Inquest?'
Does it really seem like people wait for a really strong rhetorical position before saying nasty stuff about an enemy, though, Arrendis? It seems like in practice, it's always, "You're wrong, and awful people, and X is clear evidence of that." If X is something that hasn't been fully exposed and fixed, the cry is corruption and rot. If it has, the claim becomes that it was a symptom of a deeper problem-- so, also corruption and rot.
It seems like people generally look for the worst in their opponents, and find it. |
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
31
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 15:23:15 -
[499] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:enemies of the State You and you're already begun to sound like a warlord. The Kim clique Is already in reality And you're not loyal to the CEP and the Dragonaurs also warlords Try harder, gallente bootlicker. You are just laughable. Don't bother me until you will manage to come with something coherent, or at least remotely resembling a truth. Kim you are a gallente bootlicker |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7715
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 20:06:17 -
[500] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: I'd just like to say that I find it incredibly ironic that you're simultaneously saying 'I trust the SAF to have been moral actors in this' and 'I believe the SAF would find scapegoats and leave them swinging in the wind, rather than conduct an investigation in good faith that might expose systemic and cultural issues'.
If they're so trustworthy... why don't you trust them to conduct an honest investigation?
I absolutely trust them to conduct an honest investigation. I absolutely believe they would sacrifice the careers of a few officers in the cause of the public smokescreen that would conceal any unpallatable findings of that investigation from foreigners.
Seriously. Get over the idea that the SAF believes the public has any right to know what is happening under the mask.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4143
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 22:19:16 -
[501] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Seriously. Get over the idea that the SAF believes the public has any right to know what is happening under the mask.
Please show me where I've said I think the SAF believe that. It's pretty obvious they don't.
Quote: I absolutely trust them to conduct an honest investigation. I absolutely believe they would sacrifice the careers of a few officers in the cause of the public smokescreen
So they'll conduct an honest investigation by being dishonest?
Aria Jenneth wrote:Does it really seem like people wait for a really strong rhetorical position before saying nasty stuff about an enemy, though, Arrendis?
Individuals spout off all the time, Aria. Politicians, on the other hand, don't like to put themselves in a position to look stupid when their statements have an easy counter available. After all, most of them are lawyers, and lawyers know you never ask a questionGÇöor invite commentGÇöwhen you don't know exactly what's going to be said. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7715
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 23:58:33 -
[502] - Quote
Arrendis wrote: So they'll conduct an honest investigation by being dishonest?
Nope. I think they'll conduct an honest investigation, which won't be public, and a dishonest investigation, which we just got to see.
The real mystery is any genuine surprise. (And what actually happened, of course.)
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
8523
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 05:16:12 -
[503] - Quote
I smell Dragonaurs
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3228
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 04:30:04 -
[504] - Quote
kul Shaishi wrote:Diana Kim wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:enemies of the State You and you're already begun to sound like a warlord. The Kim clique Is already in reality And you're not loyal to the CEP and the Dragonaurs also warlords Try harder, gallente bootlicker. You are just laughable. Don't bother me until you will manage to come with something coherent, or at least remotely resembling a truth. Kim you are a gallente bootlicker That's funny. I don't know why are you even writing this. Could you find at least one idiot who would believe your words?...
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2447
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 07:34:02 -
[505] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:Diana Kim wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:enemies of the State You and you're already begun to sound like a warlord. The Kim clique Is already in reality And you're not loyal to the CEP and the Dragonaurs also warlords Try harder, gallente bootlicker. You are just laughable. Don't bother me until you will manage to come with something coherent, or at least remotely resembling a truth. Kim you are a gallente bootlicker That's funny. I don't know why are you even writing this. Could you find at least one idiot who would believe your words?... I'm sure she could. But most of us know that you only lick Caldari boots. Also, I got a Tibus Heth love doll delivered to my quarters in Prism the other day by accident. Is it yours?
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9896
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 15:04:20 -
[506] - Quote
Though, to be fair, there's an argument that Kim could really be a FIO agent provocateur to inspire resistance to Provist and Dragonaur efforts.
Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
(but, like most things involving Kim, it's worth a laugh but no real consideration.)
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1765
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:19:08 -
[507] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Though, to be fair, there's an argument that Kim could really be a FIO agent provocateur to inspire resistance to Provist and Dragonaur efforts.
Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
(but, like most things involving Kim, it's worth a laugh but no real consideration.) Ms. Kim's honesty and forthright expression of loyalty to the State are understandably disconcerting to those wishing to mask hidden intent.
Personally I... and others applaud her efforts to clearly express the hidden desires of most within the State to see not only the continuance of the State but the annihilation of our Federal Union.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3982
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:43:58 -
[508] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Though, to be fair, there's an argument that Kim could really be a FIO agent provocateur to inspire resistance to Provist and Dragonaur efforts.
Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
(but, like most things involving Kim, it's worth a laugh but no real consideration.) Ms. Kim's honesty and forthright expression of loyalty to the State are understandably disconcerting to those wishing to mask hidden intent. Personally I... and others applaud her efforts to clearly express the hidden desires of most within the State to see not only the continuance of the State but the annihilation of our Federal Union.
It's kind of each of you to give the other such good rhetorical cover. Each side gets to cast their own "Doves" or "Liberals" as naive, at best, and at worst, cowards, maybe even traitors. They also get to portray the other side "Doves" or "Liberals" as liars, pointing to the other's most extreme as the honest face of the enemy. The grays fade from the world, which becomes a stark place of black and white.
And so extremists feed from each other. Each, after all, wants the same thing: all-out war.
I wonder how many wars have benefited from this oppositional symbiosis.
... Probably, a lot. |
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
33
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 00:31:07 -
[509] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Though, to be fair, there's an argument that Kim could really be a FIO agent provocateur to inspire resistance to Provist and Dragonaur efforts.
Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
(but, like most things involving Kim, it's worth a laugh but no real consideration.) Ms. Kim's honesty and forthright expression of loyalty to the State are understandably disconcerting to those wishing to mask hidden intent. Personally I... and others applaud her efforts to clearly express the hidden desires of most within the State to see not only the continuance of the State but the annihilation of our Federal Union. It's kind of each of you to give the other such good rhetorical cover. Each side gets to cast their own "Doves" or "Liberals" as naive, at best, and at worst, cowards, maybe even traitors. They also get to portray the other side's "Doves" or "Liberals" as liars, pointing to the other's most extreme as the honest face of the enemy. The grays fade from the world, which becomes a stark place of black and white. And so extremists feed from each other. Each, after all, wants the same thing: all-out war. I wonder how many wars have benefited from this oppositional symbiosis. ... Probably, a lot. And yet the pragmatic left out and there's a reason I consider the Dragonaurs A existential threat to the state. We should launch a brutal crack down on them |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
244
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 01:54:37 -
[510] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: And so extremists feed from each other. Each, after all, wants the same thing: all-out war.
I wonder how many wars have benefited from this oppositional symbiosis.
... Probably, a lot.
Time, the destroyer of all, will come for both sides either they unsheathe their swords or not.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3986
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 02:14:55 -
[511] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Time, the destroyer of all, will come for both sides either they unsheathe their swords or not. What does the battlefield know of war?
To adopt such a perspective is to be the same as a stone. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Kurilaivonen
2159
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 08:26:30 -
[512] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: It's kind of each of you to give the other such good rhetorical cover. Each side gets to cast their own "Doves" or "Liberals" as naive, at best, and at worst, cowards, maybe even traitors. They also get to portray the other side's "Doves" or "Liberals" as liars, pointing to the other's most extreme as the honest face of the enemy. The grays fade from the world, which becomes a stark place of black and white.
And so extremists feed from each other. Each, after all, wants the same thing: all-out war.
I wonder how many wars have benefited from this oppositional symbiosis.
... Probably, a lot.
Liberalism Rising Among Patriots After Being Released In Matte Kaalakiota Black
By Veikitamo Gesakaarin, Kurilaivonen News Network
Recent market data released by the Jita Securities Exchange has a shown startling increase in the number of corporate citizens of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai starting to identify as Liberals after Ishukone released its new bespoke line of, "Liberalism: For Patriots", In Matte Kaalakiota Black.
The new packaging of Liberal ideology in a rugged faux industrial metal case combined with a bold high impact font over a weather-beaten matte black has proven surprisingly popular among a wide segment of the self-identifying Patriot community in the State and in particular young men.
One shopper interviewed for this piece seen buying boxes of Liberalism, "For all of my bros," Commented on this phenomenon: "Ever since someone put Liberalism in a rugged and metallic box with bold font choices I understand it's a much broader subject than just some kind of pejorative I use because I disagree with someone in a political discussion," Adding, "Plus the free protein bars that come with it gets you sick gains, fam."
The new owners of Liberalism are expected to have a wider knowledge of the broad political, economic and social philosophies emphasizing individual rights and freedoms; a rejection of absolutism; free access to markets, goods, and services; private enterprise and entrepeneurship; and an international political order based on the preservation of the free flow of goods, people and capital without government restrictions.
It is hoped that such owners will be spared a future of unrealistic life goals created by imaginary social constructs based on racial identity leading to regressed emotional development, failed relationships and violent outbursts, which results in a life spent blaming all their failures as due to external conspiracies; formulating incoherent rants on social media about why the Federation must be destroyed; or in eventual suicide. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
244
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 11:10:29 -
[513] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Time, the destroyer of all, will come for both sides either they unsheathe their swords or not. What does the battlefield know of war? To adopt such a perspective is to be the same as a stone.
Nations may fall on the battlefield Victor and vanquished come and go And flowers bloom where the cannon pealed But only this do i know
A stone can-¦t appreciate the beauty in it.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3228
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 11:54:50 -
[514] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
And yet again Priano shows her true face by spreading such ignorant lies about Caldari Officer. I would like just to remind everyone, if someone has forgotten - that Priano is already an infamous liar, who has stained her honor by her cowardice instead of answering for her slanders.
Shame to Makoto Priano.
Shame.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3228
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 12:02:29 -
[515] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: It's kind of each of you to give the other such good rhetorical cover. Each side gets to cast their own "Doves" or "Liberals" as naive, at best, and at worst, cowards, maybe even traitors. They also get to portray the other side's "Doves" or "Liberals" as liars, pointing to the other's most extreme as the honest face of the enemy. The grays fade from the world, which becomes a stark place of black and white.
And so extremists feed from each other. Each, after all, wants the same thing: all-out war.
I wonder how many wars have benefited from this oppositional symbiosis.
... Probably, a lot.
I would like to point out, though, that I myself never called a Liberal to be a coward or a traitor just for liberal point of view. When I call someone a coward - I call it for the act of cowardice they have displayed (take, for example, Makoto Priano, who decided to lose her honor instead of showing up to resolve the conflict caused by her slanders in public against Caldari officer). And when I call someone a traitor - I call it for the act of treason they have committed (take, for example, I-RED, who decided to declare war against Caldari State leading corporations and signed blue pact with Federal Militia - that was forward and obvious treason).
I have heard both of these entities were trying to cover herself under blanket of Liberalism, but let us be honest, liberal ideals can't and won't be an excuse for crimes that I-RED or Makoto Priano have committed.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3987
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 13:46:49 -
[516] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Time, the destroyer of all, will come for both sides either they unsheathe their swords or not. What does the battlefield know of war? To adopt such a perspective is to be the same as a stone. Nations may fall on the battlefield Victor and vanquished come and go And flowers bloom where the cannon pealed But only this do i knowA stone can-¦t appreciate the beauty in it.
No; that's true. A human can. But humans tend also to hold their causes worthwhile, whether time will lay all to ruin or not.
Cosmic perspective is maybe a good thing to be aware of, but a basic part of understanding the Totality is to understand one's own place within it.
I apologize if this is an unkind observation, Ms. Tsukiyo, but you don't seem to want to bother. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
245
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 15:07:13 -
[517] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:Time, the destroyer of all, will come for both sides either they unsheathe their swords or not. What does the battlefield know of war? To adopt such a perspective is to be the same as a stone. Nations may fall on the battlefield Victor and vanquished come and go And flowers bloom where the cannon pealed But only this do i knowA stone can-¦t appreciate the beauty in it. No; that's true. A human can. But humans tend also to hold their causes worthwhile, whether time will lay all to ruin or not. Cosmic perspective is maybe a good thing to be aware of, but a basic part of understanding the Totality is to understand one's own place within it. I apologize if this is an unkind observation, Ms. Tsukiyo, but you don't seem to want to bother.
No need to apologize, i-¦ve been where you are.
I understand that it is hard to surrender to the void, let go of your personal constructs such as "ego", attachments, value, moral and judgments that give meaning to put the perspective of no-self at bay.
When i was a youngling training in my monastery, whenever i got angry at master Kreia i visualized her on the recieving end of my blows and weapons. It gave focus to a feeling and action upon it brought satisfaction to percieved "injustices" from teachings i was too full to let pour in.
As i grew older and it was my turn to teach younglings, i watched their red faces, their vigorous strikes, and i knew they were hitting a projection of me much as i did when i was their age. When you are consolidating your castle of beliefs, it-¦s important to have an antithesis available to give boundaries shape and form for your own thesis.
But just like me they were not really hitting anything, and as i watched those kids playing a highly efficient martial version of make-believe it sank in. How illusions are powerful, how we generate the context to place ourselves into and the context in turn fuels the ego and holds it in one piece. How this field is contained by attachments that are created by the field itself.
That night i looked up, and for the first time i saw the moon and how it shined upon us all. As i looked down, all i could see was proficient kids hitting illusions that they constructed themselves, oblivious to the light upon them.
That night i reached my synthesis. That night i looked maya in the face and saw how beautiful she was. That night i crossed the gateless gate.
So again, no need to apologize. I will continue to leave a trail of bread crumbs for those that could use indications, but the path is theirs to travel.
Just don-¦t expect me to look at them as something other than children playing make believe wars.
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9901
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 16:05:00 -
[518] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Makoto Priano wrote: Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
And yet again Priano shows her true face by spreading such ignorant lies about Caldari Officer. I would like just to remind everyone, if someone has forgotten - that Priano is already an infamous liar, who has stained her honor by her cowardice instead of answering for her slanders. Shame to Makoto Priano. Shame.
For public consideration, the post where Diana Kim contends another pilot is a liar and spreading pro-Gallente propaganda for claiming Kim would execute Federal POWs for being ethnic Gallente.
For public consideration, the post where Diana Kim shares a video demonstrating her crew (now acknowledged to be dominated by Dragonaur terrorists) executing Federal POWs for being ethnic Gallente at Kim's order.
If Ms. Kim's reasoning is internally consistent (and we know it isn't, but let's assume), then Ms. Kim has declared that she herself spread pro-Gallente propaganda.
Ergo, by Ms. Kim's statements, Ms. Kim herself is a pro-Gallente propagandist.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3988
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 16:14:27 -
[519] - Quote
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:No need to apologize, i-¦ve been where you are.
I understand that it is hard to surrender to the void, let go of your personal constructs such as "ego", attachments, value, moral and judgments that give meaning to put the perspective of no-self at bay.
When i was a youngling training in my monastery, whenever i got angry at master Kreia i visualized her on the recieving end of my blows and weapons. It gave focus to a feeling and action upon it brought satisfaction to percieved "injustices" from teachings i was too full to let pour in.
As i grew older and it was my turn to teach younglings, i watched their red faces, their vigorous strikes, and i knew they were hitting a projection of me much as i did when i was their age. When you are consolidating your castle of beliefs, it-¦s important to have an antithesis available to give boundaries shape and form for your own thesis.
But just like me they were not really hitting anything, and as i watched those kids playing a highly efficient martial version of make-believe it sank in. How illusions are powerful, how we generate the context to place ourselves into and the context in turn fuels the ego and holds it in one piece. How this field is contained by attachments that are created by the field itself.
That night i looked up, and for the first time i saw the moon and how it shined upon us all. As i looked down, all i could see was proficient kids hitting illusions that they constructed themselves, oblivious to the light upon them.
That night i reached my synthesis. That night i looked maya in the face and saw how beautiful she was. That night i crossed the gateless gate.
So again, no need to apologize. I will continue to leave a trail of bread crumbs for those that could use indications, but the path is theirs to travel.
Just don-¦t expect me to look at them as something other than children playing make believe wars.
No ... I don't think you've ever been where I am.
I won't claim to have completed my path, but you ... I think you're lost, far from yours, and too impressed with your own shining insight to see it. Like the Sani Sabik, you've seen something true, but you make too much of it.
That cosmic perspective you're so proud of? It's a beginning, not an end. It's only the most basic kind of insight (again like the Sani Sabik insight, "power is important"). Yes, we're mere transient specks of sapient energy and matter, lost in a mystery to which all our struggles and accomplishments are ... just ... nothing. We're figments, self-impressed flecks of dust. Everything we love, everything we fight over, will come, in time, to naught. And naught is even more or less what we are now, measured against the weight of All.
So what?
Maybe we look petty to you, "children playing make believe wars," because you think you see with the void's eyes. But the void doesn't have eyes, and nothing looks petty to it. The stars don't look at us with disdain. They don't look at us at all. Even if there were some cosmic being looking at us in such a way, that being isn't you, Ms. Tsukiyo.
Do you really think your teacher looked at you in such a way?
Our faith doesn't have a concept of heresy, although our seekers go astray all the time. I've been kind of thinking about why, aside from the introspective character of most Achur practice: some of the wrong turns we can take are plainly dangerous, and always have been.
I think ... maybe it's because really understanding is a process, and wisdom isn't something that comes at once to almost anybody, and a lot of people, even seekers, never obtain it at all. The Truth isn't something that can be conveyed in words; we have to come at it indirectly, through riddles and hints, showing its presence by circling around and around it because no doctrine can carry us there. We have to find our way to the center ourselves.
So we're almost all of us all heretics, almost all our lives.
But there are a few rules we do have in the meantime, duties that come with being human beings. And you've abandoned yours, Ms. Tsukiyo. You toy over and over with that jagged shard of truth you've found, and the arrogance of it drips from you like poison.
... and it's poisoned your own soul more than anyone's.
It's maybe wrong of me to look at you harshly, poor thing. But hear me: you are lost.
We have no concept of heresy. There's a way back, for everyone. ... Or maybe I should say, a way forward. But I'm beginning to think there's no deadlier venom in this world than a partial truth. |
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
246
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 16:22:20 -
[520] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: But I'm beginning to think there's no deadlier venom in this world than a partial truth.
That we agree on. Keep going further until you remove all the untruth that stands in your way.
That is a lesson that everyone can apply to their own lives.
Join Project Transcendence.
Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.
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kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
35
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 16:30:16 -
[521] - Quote
Aria You should visit the peoples of the stappes they worship The Eternal Blue Sky |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3989
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 16:49:56 -
[522] - Quote
kul Shaishi wrote:Aria You should visit the peoples of the stappes they worship The Eternal Blue Sky
Usually I'm interested in such things. If it's people of certain high plains on Achura you're suggesting I should visit, though, I ... kind of can't. Or rather, I have no right to do such a thing. Forgetfulness doesn't mean everything this name and face have done is forgiven.
If you mean in other places, I'm normally interested in visiting new people, though. Duties permitting.
(If there are gods it seems like that's all the more reason not to act like we know how they see the world, or to pretend we should think and act like deities.) |
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
35
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 17:09:02 -
[523] - Quote
Could come to to my home province of Q+¡ on Achura we have a arrangement with Shuijing and SuVee . so you can come if you want |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3229
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 22:39:45 -
[524] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Makoto Priano wrote: Winds, Kim's also effectively called herself an untrustworthy Gallente propagandist at least once in recent memory.
And yet again Priano shows her true face by spreading such ignorant lies about Caldari Officer. I would like just to remind everyone, if someone has forgotten - that Priano is already an infamous liar, who has stained her honor by her cowardice instead of answering for her slanders. Shame to Makoto Priano. Shame. For public consideration, the post where Diana Kim contends another pilot is a liar and spreading pro-Gallente propaganda for claiming Kim would execute Federal POWs for being ethnic Gallente. Which indeed was a lie, beucase I never executed anyone for being gallente.
Makoto Priano wrote:For public consideration, the post where Diana Kim shares a video demonstrating her crew (now acknowledged to be dominated by Dragonaur terrorists) executing Federal POWs for being ethnic Gallente at Kim's order. And in that video Gallente were executed for crimes they have committed and found guilty by the tribunal and sentenced to execution, not for "being Gallente" as slanderers and gallente propagandists claim. Alas, Makoto fails to check the facts and once again shows herself as nothing but a liar. What Makoto failed to read was published couple posts below here. Yes, indeed. They were sentenced for crimes, according to Caldari State laws and Caldari State legal procedure.
Makoto Priano wrote: If Ms. Kim's reasoning is internally consistent (and we know it isn't, but let's assume), then Ms. Kim has declared that she herself spread pro-Gallente propaganda.
Ergo, by Ms. Kim's statements, Ms. Kim herself is a pro-Gallente propagandist.
Well, for now, as we once again can see that Makoto Priano is nothing but a dishonorable liar, maybe we can stop this pathetic derailing by this angry woman? I am getting tired rebuking her inane attempts of slandering Caldari uniform with her lies.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9902
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 00:34:37 -
[525] - Quote
Riiight.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation 404 Alliance Not Found
698
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 04:21:17 -
[526] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:I would like to point out, though, that I myself never called a Liberal to be a coward or a traitor just for liberal point of view. When I call someone a coward - I call it for the act of cowardice they have displayed (take, for example, Makoto Priano, who decided to lose her honor instead of showing up to resolve the conflict caused by her slanders in public against Caldari officer). And when I call someone a traitor - I call it for the act of treason they have committed (take, for example, I-RED, who decided to declare war against Caldari State leading corporations and signed blue pact with Federal Militia - that was forward and obvious treason).
I have heard both of these entities were trying to cover herself under blanket of Liberalism, but let us be honest, liberal ideals can't and won't be an excuse for crimes that I-RED or Makoto Priano have committed.
Leading "Caldari" Corporations who were working with the Gallente, pirates and other undesirables like you.. oh right, and often flew with them against the Amarr Empire. Your tea is still waiting.
Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3229
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 06:29:22 -
[527] - Quote
John Revenent wrote: Leading "Caldari" Corporations who were working with the Gallente, pirates and other undesirables like you.. oh right, and often flew with them against the Amarr Empire. Your tea is still waiting.
Don't YOU dare to call "undesirable" me, unlike you I was doing my duty to the State. You, who was involved in direct treason with FDU, you, who declared war on Loyal Caldari military branch under spurious reason, you simply do not deserve to even look into my eyes.
Disgrace!
Shame on you, traitor.
If anyone deserves the tea, it's you. It happened under your command. It is sickening even to look at your image. You are Caldari no more.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation 404 Alliance Not Found
701
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 06:38:29 -
[528] - Quote
Go take your small mind and see if you can utilize it for something more fulfilling. Like, I don't know, finding what it means to be Caldari.. or perhaps finding what's left of your glorious leader.
Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
|
ValentinaDLM
Khushakor Clan Of Questionable Repute
970
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 09:14:46 -
[529] - Quote
John Revenent wrote:Diana Kim wrote:I would like to point out, though, that I myself never called a Liberal to be a coward or a traitor just for liberal point of view. When I call someone a coward - I call it for the act of cowardice they have displayed (take, for example, Makoto Priano, who decided to lose her honor instead of showing up to resolve the conflict caused by her slanders in public against Caldari officer). And when I call someone a traitor - I call it for the act of treason they have committed (take, for example, I-RED, who decided to declare war against Caldari State leading corporations and signed blue pact with Federal Militia - that was forward and obvious treason).
I have heard both of these entities were trying to cover herself under blanket of Liberalism, but let us be honest, liberal ideals can't and won't be an excuse for crimes that I-RED or Makoto Priano have committed. Leading "Caldari" Corporations who were working with the Gallente, pirates and other undesirables like you.. oh right, and often flew with them against the Amarr Empire. Your tea is still waiting.
You say flying against the Amarr Empire as if it is a bad thing.
For what it is worth though, as someone who has been accused of treachery for working with entities contracted with the State Protectorate, and shooting FDU aligned forces while we were contracted to the TLF, I get that diplomatic relations aren't nearly as clear cut or as black and white as Diana is trying to get across. I imagine, most Caldari are just trying to do what is best for their corporation, much as I want to do right by my tribe, and sometimes those interests align in such a way that choices have to be made that are going to be unpopular. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
7724
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 15:10:55 -
[530] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote: You say flying against the Amarr Empire as if it is a bad thing.
For what it is worth though, as someone who has been accused of treachery for working with entities contracted with the State Protectorate, and shooting FDU aligned forces while we were contracted to the TLF, I get that diplomatic relations aren't nearly as clear cut or as black and white as Diana is trying to get across. I imagine, most Caldari are just trying to do what is best for their corporation, much as I want to do right by my tribe, and sometimes those interests align in such a way that choices have to be made that are going to be unpopular.
I get very tired of people who operate under the mindset that you can't do anything wrong if you don't do anything at all.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
|
James Syagrius
Reclamation
1766
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 01:10:34 -
[531] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I get very tired of people who operate under the mindset that you can't do anything wrong if you don't do anything at all. What is the colloquialism?
Oh yes... 'preach brother.'
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
|
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1156
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 03:22:52 -
[532] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:Aria You should visit the peoples of the stappes they worship The Eternal Blue Sky Usually I'm interested in such things. If it's people of certain high plains on Achura you're suggesting I should visit, though, I ... kind of can't. Or rather, I have no right to do such a thing. Forgetfulness doesn't mean everything this name and face have done is forgiven. If you mean in other places, I'm normally interested in visiting new people, though. Duties permitting. (If there are gods it seems like that's all the more reason not to act like we know how they see the world, or to pretend we should think and act like deities.)
A possible compromise could be... an immersive holo type experience? |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
3229
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 03:25:20 -
[533] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:John Revenent wrote:Diana Kim wrote:I would like to point out, though, that I myself never called a Liberal to be a coward or a traitor just for liberal point of view. When I call someone a coward - I call it for the act of cowardice they have displayed (take, for example, Makoto Priano, who decided to lose her honor instead of showing up to resolve the conflict caused by her slanders in public against Caldari officer). And when I call someone a traitor - I call it for the act of treason they have committed (take, for example, I-RED, who decided to declare war against Caldari State leading corporations and signed blue pact with Federal Militia - that was forward and obvious treason).
I have heard both of these entities were trying to cover herself under blanket of Liberalism, but let us be honest, liberal ideals can't and won't be an excuse for crimes that I-RED or Makoto Priano have committed. Leading "Caldari" Corporations who were working with the Gallente, pirates and other undesirables like you.. oh right, and often flew with them against the Amarr Empire. Your tea is still waiting. You say flying against the Amarr Empire as if it is a bad thing. For what it is worth though, as someone who has been accused of treachery for working with entities contracted with the State Protectorate, and shooting FDU aligned forces while we were contracted to the TLF, I get that diplomatic relations aren't nearly as clear cut or as black and white as Diana is trying to get across. I imagine, most Caldari are just trying to do what is best for their corporation, much as I want to do right by my tribe, and sometimes those interests align in such a way that choices have to be made that are going to be unpopular. Ma'am, I would suggest not taking words of this man for granted. Just a couple years ago his henchmen and probably he himself was calling me "Amarr girl" just to annoy me and insult, knowing that I was (and still am) loyal to Caldari State, but was actually during that time on the service to Amarr Empire.
Yes, that corporation was in service to Amarr Empire together with myself for about a year.
Shame to John Revenent. Shame.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
36
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 13:10:35 -
[534] - Quote
Kim you're a fixed inflexible and slow . Everyone change And adapt to change you do not |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3996
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Posted - 2017.06.07 14:26:41 -
[535] - Quote
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:Aria You should visit the peoples of the stappes they worship The Eternal Blue Sky Usually I'm interested in such things. If it's people of certain high plains on Achura you're suggesting I should visit, though, I ... kind of can't. Or rather, I have no right to do such a thing. Forgetfulness doesn't mean everything this name and face have done is forgiven. If you mean in other places, I'm normally interested in visiting new people, though. Duties permitting. (If there are gods it seems like that's all the more reason not to act like we know how they see the world, or to pretend we should think and act like deities.) A possible compromise could be... an immersive holo type experience?
Uh ... I appreciate the effort at compromise, Praefecta, but ... when it's a matter of honor, compromise gets, you know, a little problematic.
I stay away because I feel like my presence there would be a slap in the face to Mother's clan, especially to the memory of Grandfather, who I murdered, and to Grandmother, whose life companion I took out of this world. Kinslaying isn't really the kind of sin I can imagine forgetfulness ever washing away.
Ordinarily, I'd love to go, but, if I appear on that world, even by holo, I'd be violating the spirit of a self-imposed stricture that's really nothing but spirit to begin with.
And I wouldn't even get to feel or taste anything. |
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
36
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Posted - 2017.06.07 14:39:48 -
[536] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:kul Shaishi wrote:Aria You should visit the peoples of the stappes they worship The Eternal Blue Sky Usually I'm interested in such things. If it's people of certain high plains on Achura you're suggesting I should visit, though, I ... kind of can't. Or rather, I have no right to do such a thing. Forgetfulness doesn't mean everything this name and face have done is forgiven. If you mean in other places, I'm normally interested in visiting new people, though. Duties permitting. (If there are gods it seems like that's all the more reason not to act like we know how they see the world, or to pretend we should think and act like deities.) A possible compromise could be... an immersive holo type experience? Uh ... I appreciate the effort at compromise, Praefecta, but ... when it's a matter of honor, compromise gets, you know, a little problematic. I stay away because I feel like my presence there would be a slap in the face to Mother's clan, especially to the memory of Grandfather, who I murdered, and to Grandmother, whose life companion I took out of this world. Kinslaying isn't really the kind of sin I can imagine forgetfulness ever washing away. Ordinarily, I'd love to go, but, if I appear on that world, even by holo, I'd be violating the spirit of a self-imposed stricture that's really nothing but spirit to begin with. And I wouldn't even get to feel or taste anything. my offer still stand . And anyway your families is in another area of the planet so you're just in a different part of it
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