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Garnet Strife Gallente Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Garnet Strife Snip for discussing moderation. Please contact us by email at [email protected] - Timmeh let me amend that for you: snip for saying anything against BOB, the unbeatable alliance that you helped to make filthy rich, where you can play eve on easy mode. TO55ERS !!! I WANT A SIG!
other mickey Gallente Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:11:00 - [32] Edited by: other mickey on 04/05/2007 16:07:47 Who in their right mind would even consider bringing a T2 fitted BS to a fleet battle knowing that in all likelihood you'll be in a pod before you get to fire a shot? Fleet battles have disappeared and we now have simple pos warfare and the occasional cap ship battle. Other than that, there are a lot of suicide runs in DD weapons. And as far as I'm concerned, the latter do not qualify as fleet battles.
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:17:00 - [33] Jeebus, the titan whinage is huge in some quarters.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:20:00 - [34] This thread has nothing to do in CAOD :) Anyway, I don't agree, I'll explain in a efw hour (irl, got to take the train atm) ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Habraka Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:29:00 - [35] Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd.
Enthes goldhart Gallente Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:30:00 - [36] why do u all hate titans? i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. people used to say teh same about the mothership but many have been killed in combat these days. so if your gonna wine, wine about people being able to change stront lvls so the pos comes out of reinforced when there is noone online!!! or logoskis or exsploters rather than somthing that has helped this game along
INZi coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Enthes goldhart why do u all hate titans? also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) have u tried panic warping a unaligned battleship sometime? Originally by: Enthes goldhart evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. have u tried ganking a titan who cynos in, DD, and cynos out?
INZi coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:39:00 - [38] tbh. the best idea to penelize the titan i've read so far on this board is giving it a timer. BOOM 10 minutes or more freeze on the titan and lockable. a sitting dead duck
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:46:00 - [39] Edited by: welsh wizard on 04/05/2007 16:44:40 The sooner they realise people blob because they can the sooner they'll realise none of the current game mechanics and proposed future changes will work. The only solution is optimising the hardware to deal with the blobs, its already too late to introduce ingame methods to deal with it. Humans herd together like sheep because its in our nature and that nature manifests in computer games too. Secondly, everyone playing has invested real currency and time in Eve and if they want a fight they're sure as hell going to get it. Nothings going to stop 500 people showing up because the server might break apart from the server itself. Titans sure as hell won't solve the problem and neither will the proposed focus fire nerf. The only positive effect these things will have on blobs is reducing the number of subscribers as they go and play something else. edit: Harsh but honest as far as I'm concerned. CCP have made the best game ever as far as I'm concerned, it still has the potential to be so much better too! I just think current developments are a step in the wrong direction.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:47:00 - [40] Edited by: Djerin on 04/05/2007 16:45:02 Originally by: Enthes goldhart i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. people used to say teh same about the mothership but many have been killed in combat these days. Sorry sir, but this is completly wrong, no actually it's bull****. I assume you know Emily? So if you were basing your stuff on facts you should know Emily was sort of a private project. That's why Emily wasn't handed out to D2 and that's why D2 didn't demand Emily to be handed out. So if one guy and his corp can build a titan someone else can too. Escalade this thought. Lets say there are others doing the same thing and by the end of the year there were like 30 private titans. This is not impossible actually. There are enough players who can well afford that. So the "omgwtf its so difficult to build em, make em indestructable" argument is flawed. And now you're saying they aren't indestructable? I am very thrilled to hear a vague plot on how to do that while the pilot is online. Just go ahead. edit for teh speleling
Attak Trioptimum FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:50:00 - [41] Anyone who played Planetside should know the effects of introducing a unit that can wtfpwn dozens of people at once. I'll admit Titan's are harder to get than BFRs were, but it's still the same basic concept. You eliminate certain types of combat, and things start to revolve around one person having the ability to shut down the entire opposition, which does not breed good gameplay.
Zyta Eke Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Habraka Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd. Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :)
Vando Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:01:00 - [43] CCP Design Logic: "Ok guys, how do we stop blobs?" "Make something that blows them all up!" "Perfect! Make it so" Notice in the above scenario to only consider the problem at hand, and not the problems created. Namely that while titans do kill blobs very handily, they also kill everything else smaller than a capital just as handily. This, this is no good. My personal fix? Make fuelling a DD shot EXPENSIVE. Like, I am not firing this every hour even though I technically can expensive. Make it a costly solution that you only use when you really really need it, when the enemy is knocking on the door of that vital location and you have to make them go away like right now. This doesn't really fix the 'well they've got 400 people defending a system, we need to get in there and kill them somehow' problem, but thats why I'm not paid to make MMOs --
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Zyta Eke Originally by: Habraka Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd. Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :) No that is not a solution. What if the activation would be as expensive as, well, 10 billion isk? You wouldn't mind to fire it off to kill any tacklers in the vicinity of your 50 billion dread fleet. The damage given is not the only thing to consider. Charging activation of DD 20 billion? Same answer. How expensive do you want it to be? There should be an effective, not tooo easy way to kill a titan online. It needs to be possible without jumping 500 dreads right on top of it. By no means do we need another blobbing scenario to get rid of the current imbalance. Of course it shouldnt be like 3 battleships coming along catching the titan during a bad timed turn either. Hm, i hope you're getting my point.
Zyta Eke Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Djerin Originally by: Zyta Eke Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :) No that is not a solution. What if the activation would be as expensive as, well, 10 billion isk? You wouldn't mind to fire it off to kill any tacklers in the vicinity of your 50 billion dread fleet. The damage given is not the only thing to consider. Charging activation of DD 20 billion? Same answer. How expensive do you want it to be? I never claimed it was a solution to that problem, mostly because I'm not entirely convinced that is a problem. Getting tacklers off of capital ships seems like a valid use for the weapon. I simply don't want it be cost-effective to use against small roaming gangs.
Fubarski Caldari Centauri Project	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Enthes goldhart i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) No, no no no. What part of it is UNHEALTHY for an MMO to do this don't people understand, especially in a PvP oriented game? You show me a game that rewards four year old players, and game veterans with nigh invulnerability, and the capability to completely dominate, and overrun a game... And I'll show you a DEAD MMO, in 5 years time. I say wipe the server, reseed the galaxy cluster, and hit the big-ole "reset" button every four years or so, if they want to provide this type of end-game. Fubar
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:34:00 - [47] Originally by: MKeeper Just seems somewhat ironic that a ship/weapon designed to take out a blob can only really be killed by a blob LOL...you sir win this thread. Thats gold. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:42:00 - [48] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. Actually, I agree with this as well. But meanwhile... Why is allowing a 50 small organisation power over a 500 man organisation good? It isn't. but then again, this is not what I said. All I talked about was the removal of the power of a massive bunch of low skilled people to dominate everything. If that massive bunch of unskilled pilots became lots of smaller groups of skilled pilots it would certainly change things. Unfortunately, the side effect of the Anti-Zerg is the creation of the Monstrous Win Button, the "other problem" that Joshua mentioned. But seeing even then, titans do not guarantee wins. Two of them have been destroyed already which must say something, surely? And the other type of supercapitals, motherships, have been taken down without the need to wait for the owner to log out so we know they are not impervious. So we have a guaranteed win situation removed and replaced by a not-so-guaranteed win solution. To my mind, that makes titans and adequate solution for the moment at least. Hence the thread title.
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:51:00 - [49] Good gameplay in a competitive game involves allowing the accumulated skill and knowledge of a four year old player to provide a winning edge. Ideally, a newer player with superior skills, knowledge and tactics should be able to defeat the four year veteran who failed to learn and grow. Titans are the antithesis of that. They're restricted entirely to people who both have years and years of SP building (which is merely a function of time, not skill) and massive amounts of ISK (which once again, is heavily time based). Worse yet, they don't simply imbalance the singular case, but rather allow a single player to negatively impact the play experience of vast quantities of others. That's purely bad for the game. Titans sounded cool, but were a mistake. Unfortunately, they're also one that CCP won't lightly walk away from. That being the case, nerf them down a ton. Lose remote DD (that was a horrible feature to create) and create ways to tackle super-capitals effectively. That's a good first step right there. Then actually work on making the game support large fleet combat. That's the goal the game pushes everyone towards yet fails to support it. Distributed processing more effectively, reduce information flow, heck, just give me a way to turn off my graphics and play with ultra-low resolution and optimize the UI. At least then I'll be able to make decisions in those battles rather than watch the game play without me. EVE has such an excellent base system, its really sad to see it screwed up by poorly balanced high end content.
Angelonico Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Karunel Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms. QFT
Leilana Rakovalkea Gallente Financial Removal	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:55:00 - [51] Id like to say my Opinion as a ex-LV member. I think Titan is a logistic tool more than a weapon of choice. It has been misunderstanded what its power is. It can move fleets of people without gates, and since it can, no BloBs can hold gates and systems in sheer numbers, countering Goon primitive attitude to the game of sheer zerg. I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. CCP has clearly seen how Goon has tried to expand and how they DDOS (with acceptance from CCP) servers with sheer numbers. And that is OK. Fact still is, its totally lame. If servers cannot hold, its just barely bullcrap to think how effective fights should be done. In anyhow I can realize the concerne on supercapitals. There is a valid points on who will be doing zergs in future with capitals, and I could imagine many of these so called super powers to have a plan to do a massive capital fleet. And for that, I do a conclusion: In our tomorrow (not in realtimeline for you trolls), capitals will be our todays Battleship fleets. imagine 100x carriers, 30x nyx, and a 5x fleet of titans. THAT ISNT THE NEAR FUTURE But that will be the future. Think far, think wise, that I would say. Do no flame/troll CCP, do not flame Goon for being zerg, dont flame BoB for being insightful, rather try to adapt. That is the way of comprehending the EVE future. I dont want to flame nor troll, rather incite a conversation to think what the future of EVE is, if not it is a Titans.
Vando Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Leilana Rakovalkea I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. Show me the team effort required to beat a titan. Show me the team effort required to fire a DD. Hmmm.... --
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:04:00 - [53] I don't think CCP wanted the Titans in game, but what you have is a group of complainers that held CCP to it because CCP mentioned a Titan class in Eve a long time ago. So CCP introduces Titans in game, and sit back and wait/watch because they know there will be a another group of ppl to complain about them which pulls the nerf bat. So CCP escapes the "You promised us Titans way back 3 years ago, and you failed to deliver", "You CCP bad, we play nother game" stuff. I would hate to see them go due to the fact that it takes so much to build, and I know what it means to work your ass off for something in this game, and see the end result with pride and testament of what you/corp/alliance achieved. I really don't think they should be a "Solo Pwn Mobile" like Oveur said about Bships a long time ago. What they need to balance I'm not sure, but rest assured CCP probably has a group of ppl that haven't seen daylight crunching numbers as we type/moan/complain. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:07:00 - [54] Titan is easy to fix, really. Set the cap recharge rate to a base rate in minutes, that would allow you to get to down to ~10 minutes with fittings + implants. DD uses 95% of cap. Recloaking delay somewhere in the 10 minutes range as well. No remote DD. This solves multiple problems. 1. No cyno - DD - cyno out 15 seconds later 2. No DD - cyno out instantly 3. Encourages use of support fleet - carriers can cap transfer to the Titan to help it get out faster 4. No peeking out of a POS - DD - hide in bubble for an hour unless that POS is actually being attacked 5. A well-planned counter-attack would be required to keep it from warping off These changes would make it wise to have at least a minimal support fleet either with the Titan, or on standby to come rescue it. As it is now, a single pilot with 3 characters can run around with impunity killing whatever he likes once an hour. I don't think anyone really minds there being a Titan in-system that warps on-grid and one-shots your fleet. It's inconvenient, but managable with tactics. What does really suck is that a Titan can cyno in from a different system, instantly DD you, and hop right back out before any counter can even begin. There still is the issue of multiple Titans, which will need to be addressed. -------------------------------------
Leilana Rakovalkea Gallente Financial Removal	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Leilana Rakovalkea on 04/05/2007 18:08:03 Originally by: Vando Originally by: Leilana Rakovalkea I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. Show me the team effort required to beat a titan. Show me the team effort required to fire a DD. Hmmm.... EDIT: ASCN, CYVOK logs. Not a skill thing nor effort, but shows a tremendous passion to make some1 to do a such act. Anyhow, did the work as intended. D2 Titan pilot target painted, and capital fleet takes the titan down. Getting a Titan DD to hit a fleet now, since everysingle respectful Alliance knows the pilots who flies a Titan, is a thing. BoB/LV/D2/AAA has all fired DD and missed. Anyhow, I still honestly think, its a matter of skill to make it work.
fugazii Deep Space Productions	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:31:00 - [56] I dont think anyone is saying that titans should be taken out of game. I think its more that they should be nerfed. At the moment there is no way to kill a titan unless ofc, the pilot logs off(god forbid). Also there is aside from logging out of the game any risk for the titan, jumps into system sets off dd remotely jumps out. That is broken, there needs to be risk in using one, a solo pwnmobile that is unstopable is much more damaging to the game than a blob. What happens to the game when alliance XXX has 20 titans, being able to kill an entire fleet every 5 minutes with no risk to them. How would someone defend against this? How would this make players want to play the game when 1 alliance could realisticly own all of 0.0, and be able to kill off anyone disputing thier claim with white lights every couple of minutes? Your agruement is based around pve, killing a boss. Fair enough, by your arguement EQ shouldnt have put a player cap but gave the ability for players to aquire an item that 1 shots a boss, this item also has 0% chance of failing and you dont have to be anywhere near the boss to use it, right? That would be just as idiotic as it is in this game, godmode IWIN buttons(wow ref) ruin the game, more so than bringing the community together for a mass zerg of a boss, or a mass zerg against an opposing fleet. Fleet fights have always been a central part of this game, whether it be on the scale of 15v15 way back in the day or 400v400 nowadays, its all relative to the player community size, and guess what that community is just going to keep growing...blobs bigger and bigger. CCP needs to implement an actual fix to mass blobs(or just dish out a lil bit on some new computers), CCP's fix to anything has always been to provide a counter fix, which more times than not just makes 2 problems instead of being just one. Fleets went from 150 to 3-400 from the time the avg player base went from 20-30k people. The servers are f'd right now with 400 man fleets, what going to happen in a year(if that) when theres an avg of 40k people online? You think Privateers is bad, what do you think is going to happen when your average pvp'r who cant afford to lose a ship everyday to a white light from a safespot moves to empire? You do the math.
Salr Ayshuermei Amarr Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:47:00 - [57] Titans and supercapitals are not the problem by themselves. The problem is the sov system that encourages blobing, and the chokepoint pvp system. EVE unfortunately suffers the same problem that all open pvp mmos have to face. The problem of how to control blobing. Some games have taken the easy route by introducing instanced pvp. You limit the area and number of players, so blobing isn't a problem. WoW, GW, and the new PotBS all have this mechanism in place so you don't see hundreds of people fighting over one spot. I think we can all agree that instances aren't a good idea for eve. The devs have stated that they want to get rid of blobing. If they can do that, a lot of the negatives with capitals and supercapitals go away. The current mechanism where you have to load hundreds of players into a single system in order to take out or defend a POS is what's really broken. Add to it the lag and crashes. You don't have a very fun game atm on the alliance level.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:14:00 - [58] Edited by: Shirei on 04/05/2007 19:11:14 Titans are in no way a counter to blobbing. They just ensure you need to blob in cap ships, making younger characters a bit obsolete.
King Dave Itto-Ryu Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:20:00 - [59] Titans are good, as they raise the barriers of entry to fleet battles, now 10 day old lag creators can't join any old fleet, cos if they do, they will die and that is certain. (goonfleet?) It is brining risk back into the game, losing a battleship doesn't hurt anyone's wallet anymore. So forcing people into capital ships will bring the risk back :) also it is teh uber noob killer. ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:28:00 - [60] Originally by: King Dave Which is good, i dont see why any 1 year old character should be as good as a 4 year old character? also it is teh uber noob killer. Only allowing characters 2-3+ years old to take part in fleet battles effectively is a bit excessive though and does not really encourage new people to join EVE. The average time a player stays in EVE is about 10 months from the stats CCP published a while ago from what I can remember, so the majority of EVE players will never reach those 2-3 years in their play-time.

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