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Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 13:44:00 - [1] Looking over the forum posts it appears that certain people are of the mind that Titans are ruining the game. I would like to put forward a counterpoint that Titans are the only thing holding the game together right now. To do this, I will need to make references to another MMORPG. Apologies in advance if this is deemed inappropriate but I feel it is needed to illustrate my point. Right now, certain faction in the game have been drawn together in the realisation that mass numbers can overpower almost any threat in the game universe. To make things clear, I am talking about the Goonswarm and nobody else. Why single out GS? Because we tried to put something very similar together eighteen months before GS touched the Eve servers (TerraDyne Syndicate has a long history of innovation, inluding being the first Tempest manufacturers, instrumental in the manufacture of the first Nyx, creating proposals for the first POS network etc). We failed due to a lack of time to organise the member corporations into anything which could take on the bets of the 0.0 fleets, although, coincidentally, we did name ourselves The Swarm as well. GoonSwarm have succeeded where we failed by creating a cohesive union of pilots able to form mass balls of ships which can overpower almost any target through sheer weight of numbers. But lets return to the theory which led TerraDyne to originally envisage The Swarm itself. For that we will need to look at EverQuest. Way back in time, I used to play on the Drinal server. SOE, the Everquest manufacturers created a content pack, Planes of Power, which prevented access to deep content without first conquering earlier content. The earlier content was tough enough that only the most powerful guilds could hope to beat it. And so myself and a couple of friends created the biggest zerg squad the game had seen to that date. Three hundred players rampaged into each zone and beat the bejeezus out of the end bosses, followed by another eight hundred running in to gain the tags from the end boss's ghost to allow them access to later content. Minimal tactics and equipment was needed. We drowned the end guys in a sea of flailing medium to low level junk and stole all their stuff. We proved that huge numbers can overpower enemies which would ordinairily require advanced tactics and equipment to defeat. So why couldn't this work in Eve as well? The answer is it can and will if enough people are thrown at the problem. Think about China's diplomatic responses in the cold war. You may be able to kill a million of our soldiers but we will replace them with ten million more! But in the difference between Eve and Everquest is that the content is mainly player created. There are no end bosses (ignoring complexes), only end player organisations, some more organised than others but still living, vibrant arrays of gamers none the less. Would it really be fair to allow their efforts to be brushed aside by merely flooding the server with bodies in the same way that we did back in EQ? SOE ended up having to recode the game on all servers because our actions on Drinal went against how they wanted the game to be played. It seems that CCP have seen how the game was moving already and have responded early to the threat of mass player buildup by creating the most unholy area effect weapon the game has seen. The result is that organisation and tactics can now stand toe-to-toe with the mass body zerg approach and have a fair chance at being victorious. Surely this is a good thing? Of course, there may and probably will come a day when those who control the thronging masses become able to exert the same level of discipline and tactical organisation of the smaller and yet better run corps in Eve. When that happens...well...it will be interesting to see how the power map changes. Just my opinions. I am sure we all know who will agree and who will disagree but constructive comments are always appreciated.
Serapis Aote Minmatar TBC	Posted - 2007.05.04 13:48:00 - [2] None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG.
podd0r Fudgepackers R Us	Posted - 2007.05.04 13:49:00 - [3]
Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 13:51:00 - [4] Edited by: Meriatalantra on 04/05/2007 13:49:01 Originally by: Serapis Aote None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG. Yes I realised I did not spell it out so here it is. A Titan with a mass area DD effect is the only thing that can stop a megasized (400+ ships) fleet other than yet another megasized fleet. It's a braking mechanism to prevent overpowering of objectives by sheer numbers alone. SOE achieved this by putting caps on the numbers that could beat a particular objective at one time. Seeing as all objectives are effectively player created in Eve there has to be another mechanism and in this case it's the Titan and its Domesday Device. Sorry, I should have been more specific but ran out of characters.
carric Caldari Barely Legal Inc	Posted - 2007.05.04 13:51:00 - [5] Edited by: carric on 04/05/2007 13:48:28 Edited by: carric on 04/05/2007 13:48:15 I agree, the Titan is a good blob killer. To bad the production of it creates even larger blobs. _______________________________________ SAY NO TO STATION WALKING TODAY! Rohk and Rook pilot.
Garnet Strife Gallente Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:07:00 - [6] Dont Troll -Eldo Davip([email protected]) I WANT A SIG!
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:08:00 - [7] Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:09:00 - [8] And too bad it encourage cap ship blobing, since capital ship become 100% safe from support ship in fleet. The problem is not so much that it kills blob, but that a war were the only fight that matter involve just dreadnoughts is a bit ... boring ? (ok carrier can get a limited role also). Why having hundreds of different ship, if you're just using half a dozen in the end ?
Thon Enay Spearhead Corp	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:11:00 - [9] Massively Multiplayer? Pfft, create a Titan to stop massive amounts of co-ordination by a single player? EVE now reminds me of R-Type when you used your superweapon and owned everything on screen. EVE is not massively multiplayer anymore. Everything CCP are doing is to stop "blobbage" which too many is how you play "massively multiplayer" games. If you don't have a titan, then get out of 0.0 basically. Way to populate 0.0 CCP. /me claps.
Karunel Princeps Corp YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:11:00 - [10] Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms. ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Atreus Minmatarius Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:13:00 - [11] Edited by: Atreus Minmatarius on 04/05/2007 14:12:04 Edited by: Atreus Minmatarius on 04/05/2007 14:10:45 the magic word in MMORPG is: BALANCE titan is prety much the oposite of that. there is no balance here. if you do not have balance in mmorpg it will suffer. ppl get **ed off and leave. Eve however has always benefited from the fact that there is simply no alternative to it. If you like fantasy mmorpg and you played wow for awile you get bored or don't like the road the game is taking you go play some other of the 10+ out there. The case is not such here. That is why CCP is getting away with pretty much whatever they want. They hardly listen to anything and any changes take forever. Oh and that thing of "player created content" is the biggest copout in mmorpg ever. I can't wait for some alternative to come around then you will see how they will begin to listen... For some reason however noone want to make anything but * fantasy mmorpgs... but anyway what you gona do, right? go play LOTR??? what i say is my own opinion and does not represent any entity other than myself
Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Karunel Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms. Interesting. Please elaborate.
Sniperpirate Minmatar Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:19:00 - [13] btw fyi I THINK TRUST make the 1st nyx :P --------------------- Memer Of The Xetic Alliance/Immensea Federation The Good Ol Days ^^ Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Elmo Pug ([email protected]) http://www.magic-night.net/waaa.jpg
Karunel Princeps Corp YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:22:00 - [14] Will do but you'll have to wait I can't write a long post atm. ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:23:00 - [15] The problem with your argument is that there are already technical and arbitrary limits on the numbers that can be brought to battle in the game. There has always been a technial limit on how much one node can handle before it dies, and more recently, the imposed artificial cap of 700. Any major 0.0 alliance can bring those numbers, or call in friends if necessary, so there is really no need for a single pilot to be able to kill hundreds with the press of a button. If what you are suggesting is that skill points and better equipment should always prevail over numbers, then we should all just cancel now, because someone already has that segment covered. -------------------------------------
Atreus Minmatarius Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:27:00 - [16] Originally by: NATMav The problem with your argument is that there are already technical and arbitrary limits on the numbers that can be brought to battle in the game. There has always been a technial limit on how much one node can handle before it dies, and more recently, the imposed artificial cap of 700. Any major 0.0 alliance can bring those numbers, or call in friends if necessary, so there is really no need for a single pilot to be able to kill hundreds with the press of a button. If what you are suggesting is that skill points and better equipment should always prevail over numbers, then we should all just cancel now, because someone already has that segment covered. correct, the op says that the titan has solved a problem. ok.. but it created a bigger one. it cannot be killed. doesn't it strike you as very inapropriate for an online game that the only 2 titan that have died have died OFFLINE??? that must be the mother of all irony. what i say is my own opinion and does not represent any entity other than myself
MKeeper Midnight Cartel	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:36:00 - [17] Just seems somewhat ironic that a ship/weapon designed to take out a blob can only really be killed by a blob
Caol The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Meriatalantra It seems that CCP have seen how the game was moving already and have responded early to the threat of mass player buildup by creating the most unholy area effect weapon the game has seen. The result is that organisation and tactics can now stand toe-to-toe with the mass body zerg approach and have a fair chance at being victorious. Surely this is a good thing? Being pedantic, CCP has not ruled out the capital fleet zerg...has it?
Koronos Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. Exactly. Meriatalantra the problem with your story, as I see it is, consider the alternative to the way your situation in everquest played out. You said only the best and strongest would have had access to these endgame areas. So, they are _already_ the best and strongest, now they get these new weapons and items that make them even more powerful and separate them even farther from the rest of the player base. On the one hand, fair play, they worked for it (ish). On the other hand, seems to me that is likely to kill the game. Whats the point of new players joining if even the second tier can't touch the first tier. In a game that the designers envision as primarily pvp oriented, that's a problem. But really, Joshua pretty much said all that needed to be said. Koronos
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:04:00 - [20] Your reasoning is faulty because of the following reasons: 1) If your argument about balance would be true - that 500 people should not be able to rule 50 people - then the opposite would hold some truth and that is ricidulous: that 50 people could rule 500. 2) If the titans' doomsdays would be only used to counter massive blobs of 100ths of ships then they would be indeed used as CCP said, as a counter to massive blobs. But...the recent history showed that titans are used even against small groups of 10-20 ships. And that is entirely crap. My suggestion: make using the DDD very expensive! 3) The more titans will come into the game, the worse it will become. One or even two titans are, well, annoying, but more than that are surely killing the fun! 4) Instead of BS blobbing we will see capital ship blobs. I am waiting to see the first goonswarm blob of 200+ capitals. I wonder if CCP then will do something... The Privateers were right, PvP in 0.0 is bad, it makes no sense - endless pos waiting, blobbing, getting doomsdayed even in small gangs... Now that PvP in high sec is also nearly impossible, what is there left?
Nai Ling Amarr Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:17:00 - [21] Not trying to flame you here, but I think you forgot to explain your point why Titans are good. You mentioned the GS numbers, and then went off on a tangent. Care to explain the meaning of the thread topic? I'm a bit confused here. Also, SOE did not make Everquest. Verant Interactive created Everquest. SOE just published it. _______________________________________________
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. I agree with Josh _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:25:00 - [23] The basic problem I have with a Titan's doomsday weapon is that the core of a fleet - battleships are rendered obsolete. No battleship can remain an effective sniper and tank a doomsday. The shortening of range for Battleships, has just by coincidence made Titan's doomsday all the more powerful. Doomsdays' have made blob warfare even more of a requirement. Whereas before you needed 100 bs for a fleet - well now you need 500 as you're going to lose half to a doomsday. That is, area of effect weapons require more ships not less for a fleet action. By the way, I agree with the general proposition that Titan's are ruining the game. A virtually invulnerable ship with the ability to destroy a fleet in a second does not sound very balanced to me. I keep seeing sigs which state someone very senior in CCP saying that no ship is a wtfpwnmobile yet here we have one.
Garnet Strife Gallente Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Garnet Strife Dont Troll -Eldo Davip([email protected]) Sorry i didn't realise telling the truth was called trolling in iceland. Are you in bob as well? I WANT A SIG!
BobGhengisKhan Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:27:00 - [25] I don't get it tbh, all people seem to do is spew contradictions from their mouth. You whine when people blob, and whine when there's a counter to the blob. Hypocrits the lot of you. Instead of being *****s maybe you should come up with new ideas instead of spamming FIX IT FIX IT NOW FIX IT FIX IT
Sergio Ling Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:29:00 - [26] CCP don't want to get rid of the blob because it's bad for combat. CCP want to get rid of the blob because ti eases server pressure. That's fine, and understandable, but Titans can't have been truly designed as a method to decrease server pressure, surely? I refer you to Winterblink's Wisdom _ This is a Shuttle. It is used to assign Templars, Amarrian fighter drones used by Carriers. They don't tank very well. - Alyth
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Lowanaera Titans do nothing to stop blobs, they merely raise the baseline ship needed to participate in a blob to a capship. The result is that anyone who can't fly a cap is useless. All the varied and interesting dynamics of fleet combat, snipers, support, tacklers, positioning, warping to range, etc all gone, as well as the possibility of participation from anyone who hasn't been playing a year bare minimum, and more realistically 2-3. Titans do nothing but create stagnation. In order for systems to be taken, POSs have to die. In order for POSs to die, capitals have to be exposed for a lengthy period of time with advance warning of the exact time and place. In order to prevent them from dying messily to a defenders fleet, they require a support fleet of their own. If the defenders have a Titan, the attackers support fleet is obsolete, the capitals won't engage or do so with great risk and likely heavy losses, a few people total get to do any actual fighting. If both sides have a Titan, both fleets end up sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. Yay, that sure sounds fun, huh? POS warfare in its current form requires blobs, period. Saying "we need to counter blobs" and introducing completely unbalanced mechanics that don't make the game fun for anyone to do that when the existing mechanics require blobs in the first place is taking a bad situation and making it worse, and damaging to the game. Should POS warfare require blobs? I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, it does, and removing fleet-to-fleet combat entirely via Titans just grinds 0.0 warfare to a halt and makes it no longer fun for all sides. The real net effect i've noticed from Titans coming in is that practically every pvper i've met says fleet combat has gone to **** and the game is less fun. That alone should be setting alarm bells ringing at CCP. Especially when you take it in the context of a gradually falling online numbers (record was set back in the start of Jan). Taur
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:50:00 - [28] Quote: How do you stop 10 friggin' Titans without a huge counter-blob? You don't. You can't! But that day is coming sooner, and CCP has done something horrible to 0.0 warfare. It is an absolute disaster in it's current state, and gets worse with each passing week. _________________________________________________________
Blaxxor Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:53:00 - [29] No Titans are bad. Titans destroy , small scale PvP , destroy small Allianzes while not able to defend , destroy FUN for new Pilots in small Ships up to BS. Titans destroy Fleet PVP in all aspects and the number of Titans will raise.Titans force you to build Capitalfleets of Dreads and Carriers. Anyway , i will leave EvE. Pirates of the burning Sea is my Hope or Age of Conan.I am nothing and a lot say the same like me ^^ have fun with Titans.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.04 15:56:00 - [30] Titans in no way have cut down on blobs. In fact the titans made the blobs worse, despite being able to kill most of the first blob that attacked them. What really combated blobs was the hard cap limit the devs have imposed of 700 pilots in a system. At the same time this pretty much stagnated the war to the point almost no real progress has been made since the battle at the BoB shipyards when the limit was first enforced. The Titans are a major problem in EVE. They are an I win button. They along with the limits of 700 per system have led to the pretty much stagnate fighting. Most progress being made is by folks getting bored with the war and leaving alliances and thus giving up ground that way. Not by fighting. Titan DoomsDay weapons need a complete overall. I would suggest removing the remote detonation ability. Furthermore they should have to enter a siege like mode before firing their doomsday and while firing it. This mode should take around 30 minutes to enter and around 30 minutes to leave. This would force the Titans to be on the battlefields. Force them to be at least nominally vulnerable to the opposing fleet. You alternately could remove the area of effect and the remote fire ability. Instead transforming it into a single target weapon of mass destruction. In this case its power should be increased to incinerate any dreadnought or less in a single blow. Then reduce the time between shots to 15 minutes. No siege mode required in this change. Fuel per shot remains as it is currently. EVE is suppose to be risk vs reward. Currently in the game the Titan faces no risk, but reaps a tremendous reward. A single firing can destroy billions of isk, while not at all risking the Titan that fired it. Hardly a good risk vs reward ratio..... I hope the DEVS will revisit the Titan particularly its Doomsday Device and make changes to encourage rather than discourage combat. Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and
Garnet Strife Gallente Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Garnet Strife Snip for discussing moderation. Please contact us by email at [email protected] - Timmeh let me amend that for you: snip for saying anything against BOB, the unbeatable alliance that you helped to make filthy rich, where you can play eve on easy mode. TO55ERS !!! I WANT A SIG!
other mickey Gallente Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:11:00 - [32] Edited by: other mickey on 04/05/2007 16:07:47 Who in their right mind would even consider bringing a T2 fitted BS to a fleet battle knowing that in all likelihood you'll be in a pod before you get to fire a shot? Fleet battles have disappeared and we now have simple pos warfare and the occasional cap ship battle. Other than that, there are a lot of suicide runs in DD weapons. And as far as I'm concerned, the latter do not qualify as fleet battles.
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:17:00 - [33] Jeebus, the titan whinage is huge in some quarters.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:20:00 - [34] This thread has nothing to do in CAOD :) Anyway, I don't agree, I'll explain in a efw hour (irl, got to take the train atm) ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Habraka Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:29:00 - [35] Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd.
Enthes goldhart Gallente Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:30:00 - [36] why do u all hate titans? i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. people used to say teh same about the mothership but many have been killed in combat these days. so if your gonna wine, wine about people being able to change stront lvls so the pos comes out of reinforced when there is noone online!!! or logoskis or exsploters rather than somthing that has helped this game along
INZi coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Enthes goldhart why do u all hate titans? also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) have u tried panic warping a unaligned battleship sometime? Originally by: Enthes goldhart evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. have u tried ganking a titan who cynos in, DD, and cynos out?
INZi coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:39:00 - [38] tbh. the best idea to penelize the titan i've read so far on this board is giving it a timer. BOOM 10 minutes or more freeze on the titan and lockable. a sitting dead duck
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:46:00 - [39] Edited by: welsh wizard on 04/05/2007 16:44:40 The sooner they realise people blob because they can the sooner they'll realise none of the current game mechanics and proposed future changes will work. The only solution is optimising the hardware to deal with the blobs, its already too late to introduce ingame methods to deal with it. Humans herd together like sheep because its in our nature and that nature manifests in computer games too. Secondly, everyone playing has invested real currency and time in Eve and if they want a fight they're sure as hell going to get it. Nothings going to stop 500 people showing up because the server might break apart from the server itself. Titans sure as hell won't solve the problem and neither will the proposed focus fire nerf. The only positive effect these things will have on blobs is reducing the number of subscribers as they go and play something else. edit: Harsh but honest as far as I'm concerned. CCP have made the best game ever as far as I'm concerned, it still has the potential to be so much better too! I just think current developments are a step in the wrong direction.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:47:00 - [40] Edited by: Djerin on 04/05/2007 16:45:02 Originally by: Enthes goldhart i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. people used to say teh same about the mothership but many have been killed in combat these days. Sorry sir, but this is completly wrong, no actually it's bull****. I assume you know Emily? So if you were basing your stuff on facts you should know Emily was sort of a private project. That's why Emily wasn't handed out to D2 and that's why D2 didn't demand Emily to be handed out. So if one guy and his corp can build a titan someone else can too. Escalade this thought. Lets say there are others doing the same thing and by the end of the year there were like 30 private titans. This is not impossible actually. There are enough players who can well afford that. So the "omgwtf its so difficult to build em, make em indestructable" argument is flawed. And now you're saying they aren't indestructable? I am very thrilled to hear a vague plot on how to do that while the pilot is online. Just go ahead. edit for teh speleling
Attak Trioptimum FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:50:00 - [41] Anyone who played Planetside should know the effects of introducing a unit that can wtfpwn dozens of people at once. I'll admit Titan's are harder to get than BFRs were, but it's still the same basic concept. You eliminate certain types of combat, and things start to revolve around one person having the ability to shut down the entire opposition, which does not breed good gameplay.
Zyta Eke Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Habraka Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd. Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :)
Vando Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:01:00 - [43] CCP Design Logic: "Ok guys, how do we stop blobs?" "Make something that blows them all up!" "Perfect! Make it so" Notice in the above scenario to only consider the problem at hand, and not the problems created. Namely that while titans do kill blobs very handily, they also kill everything else smaller than a capital just as handily. This, this is no good. My personal fix? Make fuelling a DD shot EXPENSIVE. Like, I am not firing this every hour even though I technically can expensive. Make it a costly solution that you only use when you really really need it, when the enemy is knocking on the door of that vital location and you have to make them go away like right now. This doesn't really fix the 'well they've got 400 people defending a system, we need to get in there and kill them somehow' problem, but thats why I'm not paid to make MMOs --
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Zyta Eke Originally by: Habraka Just make the Doomsday Device use a new type of fuel that costs roughly 1-5bil for one DD activation and you'll stop seeing 5 member bs gangs getting DD'd. Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :) No that is not a solution. What if the activation would be as expensive as, well, 10 billion isk? You wouldn't mind to fire it off to kill any tacklers in the vicinity of your 50 billion dread fleet. The damage given is not the only thing to consider. Charging activation of DD 20 billion? Same answer. How expensive do you want it to be? There should be an effective, not tooo easy way to kill a titan online. It needs to be possible without jumping 500 dreads right on top of it. By no means do we need another blobbing scenario to get rid of the current imbalance. Of course it shouldnt be like 3 battleships coming along catching the titan during a bad timed turn either. Hm, i hope you're getting my point.
Zyta Eke Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Djerin Originally by: Zyta Eke Yes, this is the obvious fix: make it so that using it on a small gang isn't cost-effective. Blowing up five ships with a doomsday should mean that you spent more isk than they lost. :) No that is not a solution. What if the activation would be as expensive as, well, 10 billion isk? You wouldn't mind to fire it off to kill any tacklers in the vicinity of your 50 billion dread fleet. The damage given is not the only thing to consider. Charging activation of DD 20 billion? Same answer. How expensive do you want it to be? I never claimed it was a solution to that problem, mostly because I'm not entirely convinced that is a problem. Getting tacklers off of capital ships seems like a valid use for the weapon. I simply don't want it be cost-effective to use against small roaming gangs.
Fubarski Caldari Centauri Project	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Enthes goldhart i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) No, no no no. What part of it is UNHEALTHY for an MMO to do this don't people understand, especially in a PvP oriented game? You show me a game that rewards four year old players, and game veterans with nigh invulnerability, and the capability to completely dominate, and overrun a game... And I'll show you a DEAD MMO, in 5 years time. I say wipe the server, reseed the galaxy cluster, and hit the big-ole "reset" button every four years or so, if they want to provide this type of end-game. Fubar
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:34:00 - [47] Originally by: MKeeper Just seems somewhat ironic that a ship/weapon designed to take out a blob can only really be killed by a blob LOL...you sir win this thread. Thats gold. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:42:00 - [48] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. Actually, I agree with this as well. But meanwhile... Why is allowing a 50 small organisation power over a 500 man organisation good? It isn't. but then again, this is not what I said. All I talked about was the removal of the power of a massive bunch of low skilled people to dominate everything. If that massive bunch of unskilled pilots became lots of smaller groups of skilled pilots it would certainly change things. Unfortunately, the side effect of the Anti-Zerg is the creation of the Monstrous Win Button, the "other problem" that Joshua mentioned. But seeing even then, titans do not guarantee wins. Two of them have been destroyed already which must say something, surely? And the other type of supercapitals, motherships, have been taken down without the need to wait for the owner to log out so we know they are not impervious. So we have a guaranteed win situation removed and replaced by a not-so-guaranteed win solution. To my mind, that makes titans and adequate solution for the moment at least. Hence the thread title.
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:51:00 - [49] Good gameplay in a competitive game involves allowing the accumulated skill and knowledge of a four year old player to provide a winning edge. Ideally, a newer player with superior skills, knowledge and tactics should be able to defeat the four year veteran who failed to learn and grow. Titans are the antithesis of that. They're restricted entirely to people who both have years and years of SP building (which is merely a function of time, not skill) and massive amounts of ISK (which once again, is heavily time based). Worse yet, they don't simply imbalance the singular case, but rather allow a single player to negatively impact the play experience of vast quantities of others. That's purely bad for the game. Titans sounded cool, but were a mistake. Unfortunately, they're also one that CCP won't lightly walk away from. That being the case, nerf them down a ton. Lose remote DD (that was a horrible feature to create) and create ways to tackle super-capitals effectively. That's a good first step right there. Then actually work on making the game support large fleet combat. That's the goal the game pushes everyone towards yet fails to support it. Distributed processing more effectively, reduce information flow, heck, just give me a way to turn off my graphics and play with ultra-low resolution and optimize the UI. At least then I'll be able to make decisions in those battles rather than watch the game play without me. EVE has such an excellent base system, its really sad to see it screwed up by poorly balanced high end content.
Angelonico Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Karunel Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms. QFT
Leilana Rakovalkea Gallente Financial Removal	Posted - 2007.05.04 17:55:00 - [51] Id like to say my Opinion as a ex-LV member. I think Titan is a logistic tool more than a weapon of choice. It has been misunderstanded what its power is. It can move fleets of people without gates, and since it can, no BloBs can hold gates and systems in sheer numbers, countering Goon primitive attitude to the game of sheer zerg. I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. CCP has clearly seen how Goon has tried to expand and how they DDOS (with acceptance from CCP) servers with sheer numbers. And that is OK. Fact still is, its totally lame. If servers cannot hold, its just barely bullcrap to think how effective fights should be done. In anyhow I can realize the concerne on supercapitals. There is a valid points on who will be doing zergs in future with capitals, and I could imagine many of these so called super powers to have a plan to do a massive capital fleet. And for that, I do a conclusion: In our tomorrow (not in realtimeline for you trolls), capitals will be our todays Battleship fleets. imagine 100x carriers, 30x nyx, and a 5x fleet of titans. THAT ISNT THE NEAR FUTURE But that will be the future. Think far, think wise, that I would say. Do no flame/troll CCP, do not flame Goon for being zerg, dont flame BoB for being insightful, rather try to adapt. That is the way of comprehending the EVE future. I dont want to flame nor troll, rather incite a conversation to think what the future of EVE is, if not it is a Titans.
Vando Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Leilana Rakovalkea I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. Show me the team effort required to beat a titan. Show me the team effort required to fire a DD. Hmmm.... --
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:04:00 - [53] I don't think CCP wanted the Titans in game, but what you have is a group of complainers that held CCP to it because CCP mentioned a Titan class in Eve a long time ago. So CCP introduces Titans in game, and sit back and wait/watch because they know there will be a another group of ppl to complain about them which pulls the nerf bat. So CCP escapes the "You promised us Titans way back 3 years ago, and you failed to deliver", "You CCP bad, we play nother game" stuff. I would hate to see them go due to the fact that it takes so much to build, and I know what it means to work your ass off for something in this game, and see the end result with pride and testament of what you/corp/alliance achieved. I really don't think they should be a "Solo Pwn Mobile" like Oveur said about Bships a long time ago. What they need to balance I'm not sure, but rest assured CCP probably has a group of ppl that haven't seen daylight crunching numbers as we type/moan/complain. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:07:00 - [54] Titan is easy to fix, really. Set the cap recharge rate to a base rate in minutes, that would allow you to get to down to ~10 minutes with fittings + implants. DD uses 95% of cap. Recloaking delay somewhere in the 10 minutes range as well. No remote DD. This solves multiple problems. 1. No cyno - DD - cyno out 15 seconds later 2. No DD - cyno out instantly 3. Encourages use of support fleet - carriers can cap transfer to the Titan to help it get out faster 4. No peeking out of a POS - DD - hide in bubble for an hour unless that POS is actually being attacked 5. A well-planned counter-attack would be required to keep it from warping off These changes would make it wise to have at least a minimal support fleet either with the Titan, or on standby to come rescue it. As it is now, a single pilot with 3 characters can run around with impunity killing whatever he likes once an hour. I don't think anyone really minds there being a Titan in-system that warps on-grid and one-shots your fleet. It's inconvenient, but managable with tactics. What does really suck is that a Titan can cyno in from a different system, instantly DD you, and hop right back out before any counter can even begin. There still is the issue of multiple Titans, which will need to be addressed. -------------------------------------
Leilana Rakovalkea Gallente Financial Removal	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:09:00 - [55] Edited by: Leilana Rakovalkea on 04/05/2007 18:08:03 Originally by: Vando Originally by: Leilana Rakovalkea I still think Titans are overpowered, but they are SUPPOSED to be like that. Their sheer purpose is to make those who make a effort to do things with team effort, to win those who do not even try. Show me the team effort required to beat a titan. Show me the team effort required to fire a DD. Hmmm.... EDIT: ASCN, CYVOK logs. Not a skill thing nor effort, but shows a tremendous passion to make some1 to do a such act. Anyhow, did the work as intended. D2 Titan pilot target painted, and capital fleet takes the titan down. Getting a Titan DD to hit a fleet now, since everysingle respectful Alliance knows the pilots who flies a Titan, is a thing. BoB/LV/D2/AAA has all fired DD and missed. Anyhow, I still honestly think, its a matter of skill to make it work.
fugazii Deep Space Productions	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:31:00 - [56] I dont think anyone is saying that titans should be taken out of game. I think its more that they should be nerfed. At the moment there is no way to kill a titan unless ofc, the pilot logs off(god forbid). Also there is aside from logging out of the game any risk for the titan, jumps into system sets off dd remotely jumps out. That is broken, there needs to be risk in using one, a solo pwnmobile that is unstopable is much more damaging to the game than a blob. What happens to the game when alliance XXX has 20 titans, being able to kill an entire fleet every 5 minutes with no risk to them. How would someone defend against this? How would this make players want to play the game when 1 alliance could realisticly own all of 0.0, and be able to kill off anyone disputing thier claim with white lights every couple of minutes? Your agruement is based around pve, killing a boss. Fair enough, by your arguement EQ shouldnt have put a player cap but gave the ability for players to aquire an item that 1 shots a boss, this item also has 0% chance of failing and you dont have to be anywhere near the boss to use it, right? That would be just as idiotic as it is in this game, godmode IWIN buttons(wow ref) ruin the game, more so than bringing the community together for a mass zerg of a boss, or a mass zerg against an opposing fleet. Fleet fights have always been a central part of this game, whether it be on the scale of 15v15 way back in the day or 400v400 nowadays, its all relative to the player community size, and guess what that community is just going to keep growing...blobs bigger and bigger. CCP needs to implement an actual fix to mass blobs(or just dish out a lil bit on some new computers), CCP's fix to anything has always been to provide a counter fix, which more times than not just makes 2 problems instead of being just one. Fleets went from 150 to 3-400 from the time the avg player base went from 20-30k people. The servers are f'd right now with 400 man fleets, what going to happen in a year(if that) when theres an avg of 40k people online? You think Privateers is bad, what do you think is going to happen when your average pvp'r who cant afford to lose a ship everyday to a white light from a safespot moves to empire? You do the math.
Salr Ayshuermei Amarr Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.05.04 18:47:00 - [57] Titans and supercapitals are not the problem by themselves. The problem is the sov system that encourages blobing, and the chokepoint pvp system. EVE unfortunately suffers the same problem that all open pvp mmos have to face. The problem of how to control blobing. Some games have taken the easy route by introducing instanced pvp. You limit the area and number of players, so blobing isn't a problem. WoW, GW, and the new PotBS all have this mechanism in place so you don't see hundreds of people fighting over one spot. I think we can all agree that instances aren't a good idea for eve. The devs have stated that they want to get rid of blobing. If they can do that, a lot of the negatives with capitals and supercapitals go away. The current mechanism where you have to load hundreds of players into a single system in order to take out or defend a POS is what's really broken. Add to it the lag and crashes. You don't have a very fun game atm on the alliance level.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:14:00 - [58] Edited by: Shirei on 04/05/2007 19:11:14 Titans are in no way a counter to blobbing. They just ensure you need to blob in cap ships, making younger characters a bit obsolete.
King Dave Itto-Ryu Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:20:00 - [59] Titans are good, as they raise the barriers of entry to fleet battles, now 10 day old lag creators can't join any old fleet, cos if they do, they will die and that is certain. (goonfleet?) It is brining risk back into the game, losing a battleship doesn't hurt anyone's wallet anymore. So forcing people into capital ships will bring the risk back :) also it is teh uber noob killer. ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:28:00 - [60] Originally by: King Dave Which is good, i dont see why any 1 year old character should be as good as a 4 year old character? also it is teh uber noob killer. Only allowing characters 2-3+ years old to take part in fleet battles effectively is a bit excessive though and does not really encourage new people to join EVE. The average time a player stays in EVE is about 10 months from the stats CCP published a while ago from what I can remember, so the majority of EVE players will never reach those 2-3 years in their play-time.
Amaia Popiya	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:32:00 - [61] Hmm.... The most interesting thing that I have noticed about this thread, is that the only people whining here are those that, I think, do not have a Titan. You see, judging by your replies and arguments I think your problem is that maybe, just maybe you are tring to fight a Titan using the same Methods and Tactics that you have used for the last 3 yrs, Which is Blob Up... Mass Jump in System and duke it out with the opponent. Perhaps what you need to do is re-think your normal operating procedure and develop some that: DO NOT PRESENT AN EASY OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TITAN TO ENGAGE YOUR WHOLE FLEET AT ONCE AND ALWAYS, ALWAYS KEEP YOUR HEAVY SHIPS ALIGNED FOR WARP OUT. Think folks, play the hand that CCP has delt. All I see on this thread is frustration at the old ways that are not working anymore. BOB have fought against 2 aliances that each had a Titan (ASCN & D2)and unless one of you is a BOB alt, I do not see them whining. They must have figured out a way to over come the new Fleet Order. Amaia Popiya
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:37:00 - [62] Originally by: King Dave Edited by: King Dave on 04/05/2007 19:18:53 Titans are good, as they raise the barriers of entry to fleet battles, now 10 day old lag creators can't join any old fleet, cos if they do, they will die and that is certain. (goonfleet?) It is bringing risk back into the game, losing a battleship doesn't hurt anyone's wallet anymore. So forcing people into capital ships will bring the risk back :) Originally by: Shirei . They just ensure you need to blob in cap ships, making younger characters a bit obsolete. Which is good, i dont see why any 1 year old character should be as good as a 4 year old character? also it is teh uber noob killer. Oh boy. You are aware that you are saying any "new" chars should get out of 0.0 fights, effectively making empire their home? And if new for you is anything below cap ship pilot then - lol. I know some very good PvPers who do not fly cap ships because they do not like them. I just hope no one in CCP thinks like you, would not be very good for eve. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
King Dave Itto-Ryu Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:41:00 - [63] Edited by: King Dave on 04/05/2007 19:40:00 Quote: And if new for you is anything below cap ship pilot then - lol. I know some very good PvPers who do not fly cap ships because they do not like them. They also normally do not like fleet fights. I'm not saying they can't participate, they can, just they will die, unless they actually put time and effort into getting a cap ship? It's not like the capital pilots were granted the skills and the ships free of charge, i think it only takes 6 months or something around that for a new character to be carrier or dread capable.. They had to work for them, so they should have the upper hand of being able to compete in a different league. ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:44:00 - [64] Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/05/2007 19:40:50 Originally by: King Dave Originally by: Victor Vision And if new for you is anything below cap ship pilot then - lol. I know some very good PvPers who do not fly cap ships because they do not like them. They also normally do not like fleet fights, i am not saying they can't participate, they can, just they will die, unless they actually put time and effort into getting a cap ship? It's not like the capital pilots were granted the skills and the ships free of charge.. What are you on about? If you spend isk and time training skills, you want to be uber now? What about real pilot skill? That a foreign word for you and should not count? Some of the most challenging to fly ships are smaller ships. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:47:00 - [65] Originally by: King Dave They had to work for them, so they should have the upper hand of being able to compete in a different league. This sounds like the 'BS pilots should be able to slaughter frigs with ease'-arguments 2 years ago.
King Dave Itto-Ryu Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:48:00 - [66] Edited by: King Dave on 04/05/2007 19:47:27 Edited by: King Dave on 04/05/2007 19:45:43 Originally by: Victor Vision Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/05/2007 19:40:50 Originally by: King Dave Originally by: Victor Vision And if new for you is anything below cap ship pilot then - lol. I know some very good PvPers who do not fly cap ships because they do not like them. They also normally do not like fleet fights, i am not saying they can't participate, they can, just they will die, unless they actually put time and effort into getting a cap ship? It's not like the capital pilots were granted the skills and the ships free of charge.. What are you on about? If you spend isk and time training skills, you want to be uber now? What about real pilot skill? That a foreign word for you and should not count? Some of the most challenging to fly ships are smaller ships. If you have ever been in a fleet battle you would have realised single pilot skill isn't really needed there, just being able to sort your overview and hitting f1 - f8 is a viable fleet pilot. You have never flown with me or against me, how can you comment on my skill level? If you had bothered doing any research you would of realised I mainly fly interceptors and recons. ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Attak Trioptimum FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Amaia Popiya Hmm.... The most interesting thing that I have noticed about this thread, is that the only people whining here are those that, I think, do not have a Titan. You see, judging by your replies and arguments I think your problem is that maybe, just maybe you are tring to fight a Titan using the same Methods and Tactics that you have used for the last 3 yrs, Which is Blob Up... Mass Jump in System and duke it out with the opponent. Perhaps what you need to do is re-think your normal operating procedure and develop some that: DO NOT PRESENT AN EASY OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TITAN TO ENGAGE YOUR WHOLE FLEET AT ONCE AND ALWAYS, ALWAYS KEEP YOUR HEAVY SHIPS ALIGNED FOR WARP OUT. Think folks, play the hand that CCP has delt. All I see on this thread is frustration at the old ways that are not working anymore. BOB have fought against 2 aliances that each had a Titan (ASCN & D2)and unless one of you is a BOB alt, I do not see them whining. They must have figured out a way to over come the new Fleet Order. Amaia Popiya I can't help but wonder how many fleet battles the Imperial Acadamy has used their titans in, to give you such a good grasp of how they effect PVP mechanics.
Noh Chek'na Itto-Ryu	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:59:00 - [68] Another, why this is overpowered why this is underpowered, why I'm jealous because I cant afford it, why i'm too much of a noob to fly it, i'm so tired of dying because I suck, i'm really sick of reading these threads post.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:05:00 - [69] Originally by: King Dave Originally by: Victor Vision What are you on about? If you spend isk and time training skills, you want to be uber now? What about real pilot skill? That a foreign word for you and should not count? Some of the most challenging to fly ships are smaller ships. If you have ever been in a fleet battle you would have realised single pilot skill isn't really needed there, just being able to sort your overview and hitting f1 - f8 is a viable fleet pilot. You have never flown with me or against me, how can you comment on my skill level? If you had bothered doing any research you would of realised I mainly fly interceptors and recons. I do not see myself commenting on your skills anywhere. I asked you some questions to understand your point. You said 'new' pilots had no place in fleet battles and indirectly even went as far as saying 'new' was anything below cap pilots. I happen to disagree with your stance. In my opinion a well composed fleet should be most effective with a good mix of ships of all classes in it. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
Noh Chek'na Itto-Ryu	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:10:00 - [70] thats slowly becoming less of a reality. Take for instance 5 carrier pilots. All well skilled over 40million sp's all with decent remote capital repping. As long as the pilots stay close to each other, IE not moving, they can keep each other alive forever. How long do you think it would take 10 dreads to kill a carrier with 8 capital reps on him? Now how well do you think your 40 man battleship fleet will do? sensor damp you say? nos you say? what if he has any kind of well tanked support of 15. Assign fighter, good bye.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:19:00 - [71] Originally by: Amaia Popiya Hmm.... The most interesting thing that I have noticed about this thread, is that the only people whining here are those that, I think, do not have a Titan. You see, judging by your replies and arguments I think your problem is that maybe, just maybe you are tring to fight a Titan using the same Methods and Tactics that you have used for the last 3 yrs, Which is Blob Up... Mass Jump in System and duke it out with the opponent. Perhaps what you need to do is re-think your normal operating procedure and develop some that: DO NOT PRESENT AN EASY OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TITAN TO ENGAGE YOUR WHOLE FLEET AT ONCE AND ALWAYS, ALWAYS KEEP YOUR HEAVY SHIPS ALIGNED FOR WARP OUT. Think folks, play the hand that CCP has delt. All I see on this thread is frustration at the old ways that are not working anymore. BOB have fought against 2 aliances that each had a Titan (ASCN & D2)and unless one of you is a BOB alt, I do not see them whining. They must have figured out a way to over come the new Fleet Order. Amaia Popiya Only that even BoB pilots have admitted that the Titan is a game-breaker, D2 pilots admit it is a game-breaker, it's pretty well accepted that something needs to be done with them if the only way BoB can kill one is when it's offline. Having dodged several DD's myself, as well as attempting to kill the damn things, you don't have to tell me what tactics work and what ones don't. There are tactics that should work in theory, but there is a minute chance of timing it just right and moving the blob required through the lag to get to, target, and activate on the Titan in time before he recharges and is able to jump. So there again, we have dozens of pilots, sitting around with their thumbs in the ass, waiting for a Titan to appear and fire off his DD, to get that 1/1,000,000,000 chance of killing it. Are we having fun yet? -------------------------------------
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:22:00 - [72] Edited by: Victor Vision on 04/05/2007 20:25:41 Originally by: Noh Chek'na thats slowly becoming less of a reality. Take for instance 5 carrier pilots. All well skilled over 40million sp's all with decent remote capital repping. As long as the pilots stay close to each other, IE not moving, they can keep each other alive forever. How long do you think it would take 10 dreads to kill a carrier with 8 capital reps on him? Now how well do you think your 40 man battleship fleet will do? sensor damp you say? nos you say? what if he has any kind of well tanked support of 15. Assign fighter, good bye. Exactly, that is part of the problem. Any 40 mil skillpoint char should remember how gang/fleet fights used to function (if the char was not bought). The principle of CCP was that the different sizes of ships should have to support each other to be effective. This allows older and younger chars and chars with different sizes of wallet to fly together effectively. Now, what good for are any ships below cap size if cap fleets do not realy need smaller ships as support? And what good for are newer players then? By the way, I am a vet with multiple accounts. But I am very concerned for new players to keep coming into EVE and enjoying it. If EVE becomes VET only, it will slowly fade away. IMHO the whole line of cap ships, including titans of course, needs adjustments. Either that, or smaller ships need a major boost. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
Sidus Sarmiang Frustrated Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:30:00 - [73] I hate to metagame or speculate, but maybe the best solution is to make them killable. Perhaps introduce the tech 2 battleships as a sort of super-capital tackler by giving them the ability to fit a module that has a chance of preventing capital ships from jumping/warping, similar to an ECM jammer. Make the chance low enough you'd still need a group of them to tackle a supercap. If they're only inventable and have high skill/build reqs, it would be difficult to get a group of them together. In addition, don't let them have much more defense than a regular battleship. It'd be a challenge to assemble a group then take down a supercapital before the support fleet wipes out the tacklers. Supercapitals would still be a major force, and they'd be difficult enough to kill that it would justify their cost with a bit of tweaking. An added advantage is that supercap tacklers would be a major discouragement from using supercaps as a one ship pwnmobile.
Vyxx Shinra	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:37:00 - [74] hi sabahl.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:37:00 - [75] Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang If they're only inventable and have high skill/build reqs, it would be difficult to get a group of them together. In addition, don't let them have much more defense than a regular battleship. It'd be a challenge to assemble a group then take down a supercapital before the support fleet wipes out the tacklers. Supercapitals would still be a major force, and they'd be difficult enough to kill that their cost would still be justified. Difficulty in this game is only a factor of ((Time + ISK)/Skillpoints). One Titan per month isn't quite the feat it was first thought to be. -------------------------------------
Sidus Sarmiang Frustrated Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:41:00 - [76] Originally by: NATMav Difficulty in this game is only a factor of ((Time + ISK)/Skillpoints). One Titan per month isn't quite the feat it was first thought to be. That's true, but there still needs to be something that can styme the amount of titans a bit. The game would lose a lot if anything smaller than a carrier became obsolete.
Dahin Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:52:00 - [77] The only way to stop blobbage is to stop forcing people to blob in order to get something done. In the past years the game is not just marching towards blob-need, it's running mad towards it. POS? Hell, it both needs a megablob to take down in relative safety and also needs 0 support when there aren't any hostile megablobs around. Titans? Oh jeez... ever run the numbers to see how many people it needs to take down? it's megablob^2. It doesn't cut down on blobs, it makes them bigger but forces them to play a more boring game.
Kieranda Weyland-Yutani Future Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:53:00 - [78] Originally by: King Dave Originally by: Shirei . They just ensure you need to blob in cap ships, making younger characters a bit obsolete. Which is good, i dont see why any 1 year old character should be as good as a 4 year old character? it will surely help eve long term if you go tell a new player that shows interest in eve that he needs to wait 2+ years and train for capital ships before he can join 0.0 warfare when not long ago you could get new players excited by showing them how fast they could get into the action, even if they are only flying a t1 frigate tackler or ewar ship and who wants to have eve slowly dying because of this? COUGHSHADOWBANECOUGH
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:13:00 - [79] Originally by: Meriatalantra All I talked about was the removal of the power of a massive bunch of low skilled people to dominate everything. If that massive bunch of unskilled pilots became lots of smaller groups of skilled pilots it would certainly change things. You see, this is contradicting. When those unskilled cruiser pilots of today become skilled and form small gangs as you say, they are still low skilled in comparison to cap pilots of today. They will ever be and so you're basicly saying: you suck because you didn't join eve in early 2003. So now you'll suck forever. That's not what a pvp-based game should be like. It's like giving the championship trophy to the team who signed for the trophy first just because of that. It's lame.
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:17:00 - [80] I know its horribly off topic but as I sit here logged off after getting blobbed I need something to do. eve warfare generally is pretty borked atm, its so very very difficult to get anything like a decent fight with the last really good ones we had being against privateers cos its the only way to avoid capitals and as a result i can see more and more people getting into empire wars. Now I am not accusing anyone particularly or trying to play holier than thou as we are just the same with our home system. corp chat #1: 10 hostiles incoming, 3 bs, 3 bc, rest support corp chat #2: form gang, how many have we got? 34? OK corp chat #3: ok we have 4 carriers in POS, dot for fighters. hostiles: ok, **** that lets go home. Now we have been both the hostiles and the defenders and its pretty much the same both ways. Last decent fight we almost got (a 14 v 14) was killed by the other side cynoing in not one, or two or three but four carriers into the fight Unless you just bring ceptors so you can pretty much escape from anything how do you go about getting a good fight? Either you have to bring loads of capitals and/or they bring loads of capitals and what could have been fun is suddenly too expensive to just have a laugh with. Its getting so that we are going to have to try to have prearranged fight club style meeting with some hostiles just to get something approaching a fun fair fight. Noone wants 40 hostile capitols in their home system or a 60 man t2 sniper gang, its just not fun. Start throwing supercapitols into the mix and it gets even more ridiculous. When I was in ascn one MS pretty much locked down an entire system by itself cos you couldnt ever risk trying to engage it because even if you did bring numbers then it could just cyno in a ton more capitols or a titan or whatever. Is anyone getting good fights that are fun for both sides (i.e. not one-sided gankathons) atm? If so where and how are you managing it?
Akov Stohs FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:23:00 - [81] To draw comparison... In wow, take 1 lvl 70 Fully equiped and Tricked out Shammi, versus 20 average Lvl 20s...40 of them? 60? What about a Shammi, Mage, and a Paldin, at level 70, can take on what...500? 600? 700? It would be a slaughter Yea...No other game in the world rewards experince and time in game more then wow. And what game has the most subscribers in the world? Just thought I would note.... my sig is too big
Undeadas2 Amesha Spentaz Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:24:00 - [82] So the topic "why Titans are good" truns into "why Titans are bad" :) I belive this clearly states the situation of game. As all I read, I saw stuff, like: 1. "Titans are created to reduce blob". I believe this can be a wrong point of view. I mean - everybody has seen Star Was and it's Death Star and with a huge game you can easily fall into gigantomania. So devs created Titan, because SCI-FI simply is used for such things, and I belive before Titans a lot of people where asking - if we will find such class in game... Sadly it turns out to be badlly implemented. But well without implementing you can't see what will happen... 2. "Blob = EVIL". I disagree - when 15 people attack 2-3 - they say it's a gang and it's good. When 500 people attack 50 they say i'ts bad. Sorry - but the effect of masses must have their use. So as someone allready said - it's not logical, that 50 people would rule over 500 (and same go to one titan pilot over fleet, oh sorry, you call it "blob"). 3. Titans are not totaly Evil. As someone stated - we don't want to see them out of game, but they should be nerfed :) 4. Nerfing. 4.1. To use them as fleet transport stuff (some ex LV guy said it). I like this idea, but I belive now it's too late to put DD from game. 4.2. To put 10 min. time for Titan being unable to move/warp. Sounds maybe the best solution from all I have read. But this doesn't solve the problem "1 ship versus 500", it might reduce the use of DD agaisn 10-15 gang. But in other cases - no way. 4.3. As someone stated, and also my friend said it too. BS T2 ships - could become the ones able to warpstab capital ships... Still I feel this would not make fleet battles better when Titan is in system. 4.4. Making DD an expensive thing (1 bil ?!). Sounds bad, if I feel it's bad, when it is bad. Maybe DD coudl be expensive, but I wouldn't go more than 200 mil. and even with 200mil I would be a bit sceptical, but it could work as limited solution (as the ones who build Titans have a good wallet). 4.5. Change DD damage. Make it less and make it less even for smaller ships - let cruisers and frigs survive! Or limit like - DD can't do dmg agaisnt structure :) So it would stay as big fleet support, and also repairing ships class woudl have their place in fleets! 5. Capital stuff has gone wrong. Yep... Titan is now shadowing this thing, but POS battles, and CAP thing was more or less reported as non-fun factor, taking only time, and usually reported by both sides pilots. And if I remember good - Dev's in one of blogs mentioned, that with faction warfare they are going review cap ships warfare too... I hope I understood that blog right. 6. Titans are not solving blob thing. Most of us agree on that, blob is created by other factors, and usually blob is the only way to reach goals, also as I said - blob is not evil. 7. Blob possible solution. Todays solution to limit 700 people per system (implemented first in attack agaisnt MC shipyard? or a bit latter against attack in BoB shipyard? /me makes a grim smile... ) - is nonsense (as one side, has uber big unnatural advantage, good job CCP!). Back on topic. The problem - Blobs are bad - is because servers are bad, they create lag, and the whole node can go down. So I say - if you can't fight it, live with it. Make a simple mechanic, with which at some point node would certainly crash. When it does so - keep a list of ships, that "should be in system", that are "jumping to system", "trying login in system" - make such list, and after server reboots/whatever randomly accept pilots to server (accept X pilots per sec, or accept 100 per minute, whatever) - you will keep at least proportions of both sizes in system. And won't give any undeserved advance for one side over another (like it is today, or like it was when LV shipyards were destroyed).
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:39:00 - [83] Originally by: NATMav Titan is easy to fix, really. Set the cap recharge rate to a base rate in minutes, that would allow you to get to down to ~10 minutes with fittings + implants. DD uses 95% of cap. Recloaking delay somewhere in the 10 minutes range as well. No remote DD. This solves multiple problems. 1. No cyno - DD - cyno out 15 seconds later 2. No DD - cyno out instantly 3. Encourages use of support fleet - carriers can cap transfer to the Titan to help it get out faster 4. No peeking out of a POS - DD - hide in bubble for an hour unless that POS is actually being attacked 5. A well-planned counter-attack would be required to keep it from warping off These changes would make it wise to have at least a minimal support fleet either with the Titan, or on standby to come rescue it. As it is now, a single pilot with 3 characters can run around with impunity killing whatever he likes once an hour. I don't think anyone really minds there being a Titan in-system that warps on-grid and one-shots your fleet. It's inconvenient, but managable with tactics. What does really suck is that a Titan can cyno in from a different system, instantly DD you, and hop right back out before any counter can even begin. There still is the issue of multiple Titans, which will need to be addressed. Lets make it 20 minutes, but reduces to 10 with a skill at 5. I assume that during that 10-20 minutes you mean it can not move? Also no remote DD, right? If so this would balance out titans so they can be killed by two gangs. 1 gang gets DD and the other goes for the kill or gets killed by the titans support. That would force fleet fights and if the titan is being used as a spearhead than no more support can come :). --------------------------- Originally by: Ductoris At this rate I'm going to ask for a BOB sub-forum.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:40:00 - [84] Edited by: Djerin on 04/05/2007 21:38:55 Originally by: Fitz Chivalry Either you have to bring loads of capitals and/or they bring loads of capitals Exactly. Even well known, highly credited entities are doing it. They send in the gank squad. And as soon as the locals team up to equal the numbers they cyno in their mothersips/carriers and the locals are f***ed. So anything but fielding a cap fleet is useless. This wouldn't be a problem if cap ships were pretty much useless against normal ships. Like a bomber - it's nice for destroying airports, buildings, bridges and the like. But it is completly useless against enemy fighters. Even if friendly fighters flew a formation around the enemy fighter in the shape of a crosshair, the bomber most likely wouldn't hit it.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Meriatalantra Edited by: Meriatalantra on 04/05/2007 13:49:01 Originally by: Serapis Aote None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG. Yes I realised I did not spell it out so here it is. A Titan with a mass area DD effect is the only thing that can stop a megasized (400+ ships) fleet other than yet another megasized fleet. It's a braking mechanism to prevent overpowering of objectives by sheer numbers alone. SOE achieved this by putting caps on the numbers that could beat a particular objective at one time. Seeing as all objectives are effectively player created in Eve there has to be another mechanism and in this case it's the Titan and its Domesday Device. Sorry, I should have been more specific but ran out of characters. And what can stop 10 titans or 20? The titan may combat the blob, but creates another problem. That problem is outlined in so many other threads, so no point in me filling this one :) ------------
Gidien Kane Amarr OneHundredRed	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:06:00 - [86] Is there a devblog I missed where CCP admits that titans are a form of blob control? It's killing fleet engagements and I can't even imagine AAA BoB or D2 fleets having much fun just sitting in at a pos while the titan pilots get all the kills or the enemy fleet turns tail when ET enters local. Maybe expand their logistical uses and reduce their DD power. GK- CCP Creates 100 Jobs For Game Developers, apply soon to even out the odds
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Meriatalantra Edited by: Meriatalantra on 04/05/2007 13:49:01 Originally by: Serapis Aote None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG. Yes I realised I did not spell it out so here it is. A Titan with a mass area DD effect is the only thing that can stop a megasized (400+ ships) fleet other than yet another megasized fleet. It's a braking mechanism to prevent overpowering of objectives by sheer numbers alone. SOE achieved this by putting caps on the numbers that could beat a particular objective at one time. Seeing as all objectives are effectively player created in Eve there has to be another mechanism and in this case it's the Titan and its Domesday Device. Sorry, I should have been more specific but ran out of characters. except now you have a single ship that can stop any force thrown at it just about, especially when you take multiples into account.... Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Ivo D Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:04:00 - [88] Edited by: Ivo D on 04/05/2007 23:02:01 Edited by: Ivo D on 04/05/2007 23:00:56 91st in an epic thread .. the cocnept for a titan is awesome and it fits EVE perfectly, but the actual ships are really a bit broken atm. DDD's are way too easy to use, and cost too few iskies. maybe if the DDD can be activated only by the ship itself (not remotely trough a cyno), and has a range of lets say 150Km it might balance things out. or it can be changed to a whole new type of weapon. an anti- dread/carrier/titan super-capital weapon, that can be activated every 5-6 minutes, and will be able to one-volley a dread, or at least do so much dps that the dread cant keep with its tank, but still have time to either get away or get repped by other capitals. just some random ideas :) edit: spelling nerf gheyllente.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:13:00 - [89] Quote: The most interesting thing that I have noticed about this thread, is that the only people whining here are those that, I think, do not have a Titan. And the most interesting part to me is that the only people supporting titans in their current form, I think, are either noob corp alts or alts in 1-5 person corps
Alizeee Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:21:00 - [90] Originally by: Xelios Quote: The most interesting thing that I have noticed about this thread, is that the only people whining here are those that, I think, do not have a Titan. And the most interesting part to me is that the only people supporting titans in their current form, I think, are either noob corp alts or alts in 1-5 person corps Somebody called for me ? If they nerf titans the most screwed will be the people with one or two titans and not the ones with five.
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:48:00 - [91] Ok i'll spell it out for you. CCP decides that EVE is too much of a *** for noobs, so to get them out of highsec sooner (or carrying their mains stuff through empire sooner...) they decide that noobs should get a million sp instead of the tiny ammount they started with previously... This makes goons smile a lot as their nublets can now start with cruisers instead of t1 frigs. This makes molley say wtf you havent forgotten our deal have you ccp? And so the titan is born. And here come the flame alts Originally by:** Dr Cupid Let me tell you all that I'm really enjoying eve-beta, and can't wait for the real game to come out!
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:53:00 - [92] There are about 40 threads about this in General Discussion, which is probably where this thread belongs.
Decidis Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:00:00 - [93] Originally by: Meriatalantra Way back in time, I used to play on the Drinal server. SOE, the Everquest manufacturers created a content pack, Planes of Power, which prevented access to deep content without first conquering earlier content. The earlier content was tough enough that only the most powerful guilds could hope to beat it. And so myself and a couple of friends created the biggest zerg squad the game had seen to that date. Three hundred players rampaged into each zone and beat the bejeezus out of the end bosses, followed by another eight hundred running in to gain the tags from the end boss's ghost to allow them access to later content. Minimal tactics and equipment was needed. We drowned the end guys in a sea of flailing medium to low level junk and stole all their stuff. EQ raids were capped at 72 players. They were also instanced so no more than 1 raid could try and down a boss at once. Besides, Bertox was the hardest of the T1 gods ;)
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:04:00 - [94] The greater of two evils is still the greater evil.
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:32:00 - [95] Edited by: Elspeth Vigneron on 05/05/2007 00:28:57 Originally by: Meriatalantra Edited by: Meriatalantra on 04/05/2007 13:49:01 Originally by: Serapis Aote None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG. Yes I realised I did not spell it out so here it is. A Titan with a mass area DD effect is the only thing that can stop a megasized (400+ ships) fleet other than yet another megasized fleet. It's a braking mechanism to prevent overpowering of objectives by sheer numbers alone. SOE achieved this by putting caps on the numbers that could beat a particular objective at one time. Seeing as all objectives are effectively player created in Eve there has to be another mechanism and in this case it's the Titan and its Domesday Device. Sorry, I should have been more specific but ran out of characters. Not it's not. There is a much easier fix than the silliness of individuals owning ships more powerful than the most advanced Nuclear Attack Carriers ever built by mankind, requiring 1000's of highly trained individuals to operate. It's call, limit Alliance size. No more than 400 members from top-to-bottom in an alliance and 100-200 in a corporation. That would spell the end of Bob, Goonswarm, RA, etc., are broken and blob warfare will significantly decrease. It will also break-up these huge territories and reduce the alleged isk-selling/farming corruption that some of the big alliances are reported to engage in. Add in special ammo for BS-sized weapon systems for anit-POS warfare. For example, "Penetrative Torpedos" with a 500% damage bonus against POS defenses (or whatever, I'm not doing the math, really just winging it here) and -50% against everything else to keep them specialized. Personally though, I think all the capital ships should be pulled out. They're the +10 swords of EVE and it's just annoying-to-completely-retarded.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:32:00 - [96] Originally by: Enthes goldhart why do u all hate titans? You're from Rise, the more Titan you could ever have seen against one of your operation is, say, one. Most last TCF operations saw two Titans from who-you-know and who-was-there-but-now-is-who-you-know. People who are sick about Titans are people fighting vs them since 3 or 4 month at least. People that never complain about them never saw a DD wiping out a long time planed, played and figthed operation. One man, with one left click destroyed hours and of planing, fighting, leading and ressources. Titan are invicible. You know why ? Because : 1 - they are a tool used only by some alliance that already have the best industry. If they acheived the best industry, they acheived the best military to defend the shipyard against their ennemies. 2 - they are designed to be a ship that can't be beaten by small gang of bs. You need at least 15 cap ship with support to own one. 3 - it's so expensive that it can be engaged like a bs : result : all the Titans have a huge fleet support. As a result, the minimal fleet designed to own one need to own the support fleet, but if you want to kill the support fleet then the Titan allready have jumped out. If you want to kill only the Titan, its suport fleet allready owns yours ===> invicible ship. Actually Titans are not an antiblob weapon : they create more blobs because most alliance think they could own one in combat. Nobody came close to this. It's easy to defend Titan when you have many among your friends. It's not when your ennemies forgot they could fight with no Titan support. ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Asylum Seaker Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:12:00 - [97] Skilled and experienced players tend to gather under one banner in any game. In this game most of them have gone to BoB it seems, or other 'elite' corps. Perhaps when some of these players get sick of supporting a titan instead of having actual PVP, they will feel like going else where and the power will be redistributed a bit. That could only be a good thing. The universe is hostile, so impersonal, devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been.
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:14:00 - [98] Originally by: Akov Stohs To draw comparison... In wow, take 1 lvl 70 Fully equiped and Tricked out Shammi, versus 20 average Lvl 20s...40 of them? 60? What about a Shammi, Mage, and a Paldin, at level 70, can take on what...500? 600? 700? It would be a slaughter Yea...No other game in the world rewards experince and time in game more then wow. And what game has the most subscribers in the world? Just thought I would note.... Massively bad comparison. Because in 2 months, those 500 Level 1 guys will be, even if casual gamers, will have closed the gap so they're more than capable of killing off your uber player. Heck, they could take a two weeks off work and power-level to 50/60 if they really wanted to. So while the playing field isn't level at first, a dedicated gamer who wants to succeed could level the field in a short time. You can't do that in Eve. The eariest I could get into a completely unfitted Titan, with my main who's more skilled, is 195 days. I couldn't fit any capital modules. I couldn't fit Tech II rigs. I couldn't do much of anything but look like a complete idiot.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 05:11:00 - [99] Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron I couldn't fit Tech II rigs. This feature is restricted to one alliance anyways...
Meriatalantra TerraDyne Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Decidis Originally by: Meriatalantra Way back in time, I used to play on the Drinal server. SOE, the Everquest manufacturers created a content pack, Planes of Power, which prevented access to deep content without first conquering earlier content. The earlier content was tough enough that only the most powerful guilds could hope to beat it. And so myself and a couple of friends created the biggest zerg squad the game had seen to that date. Three hundred players rampaged into each zone and beat the bejeezus out of the end bosses, followed by another eight hundred running in to gain the tags from the end boss's ghost to allow them access to later content. Minimal tactics and equipment was needed. We drowned the end guys in a sea of flailing medium to low level junk and stole all their stuff. EQ raids were capped at 72 players. They were also instanced so no more than 1 raid could try and down a boss at once. Besides, Bertox was the hardest of the T1 gods ;) Originally they weren't. The cap came in about 8 weeks after we first zerged the living hell out of them. That was my point
shuckstar Gallente Order of New Blood	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:54:00 - [101] Originally by: Voculus Edited by: Voculus on 04/05/2007 15:57:27 Quote: How do you stop 10 friggin' Titans without a huge counter-blob? You don't. You can't! But that day is coming sooner than we'd all like, and CCP has done something horrible to 0.0 warfare. It is an absolute disaster in it's current state, and gets worse with each passing week. So True
hybridundertaker Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:49:00 - [102] titan as a ship is good in my opinion. remote ddd and cyano out is bad. Complete immunity from scrambling = bad. Solo pwnmobiles = very bad. when an alliance gets X0 titans and capships pop in single ddd focus or fleet get dd evry minute or two i guess evrybody else will go back to empire. blob iz bad but ddd galaxy ownage will be doomsday for eve also unless serious measures are taken into consideration. Maybe not one huge nerf bat but a series of smaller nerfs together with new features like t2 battleships. I think allmost 100% of eve players (wonder what titan pilots would say...) agrees remote detonation is a no-no. CCP its your turn i guess. EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER
Torm Ilmater No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:48:00 - [103] Edited by: Torm Ilmater on 06/05/2007 00:53:11 Originally by: Attak Anyone who played Planetside should know the effects of introducing a unit that can wtfpwn dozens of people at once. I'll admit Titan's are harder to get than BFRs were, but it's still the same basic concept. You eliminate certain types of combat, and things start to revolve around one person having the ability to shut down the entire opposition, which does not breed good gameplay. My thoughts exactly. Planetside was already on a downward spiral but BFRs turned it into a speed of light nosedive. Aside from the one person pwnage that is the titan DDD(which was a dumb idea to start with), capital ships primary problem is they're too difficult to kill. The jump from BS to Capital Ship is massive when you compare is to the previous jumps. Capital ships should be used primarily for their OFFENSIVE power but should only require around the same ratio of manpower that prior lower class ship to higher class ship combat required to take the higher class ship down. A lot of the fault here lies with the HP increase to give us "strategic gameplay" which has turned EVE into the commonly quoted 'Capital Ship Online.' Edit: CCP should have PotBS in their crosshairs. While it's not a Sci-Fi game it certainly has a lot of traits that EVE does (along with real avatar support) and looks to be a solid title. If EVE continues to be 'Cap Ship Online' I could certainly see a number of people jumping ship.
Torm Ilmater No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:09:00 - [104] Originally by: hybridundertaker ... together with new features like t2 battleships. I don't know if I'd consider t2 battleships a good countermeasure. Something like t2 battleships as the counter to cap ship online would alienate even more of the newer pilots who can barely fly a regular t1 BS. Seriously though, if I were a newer player and I was told that the only serious counter to titans were cap fleets or t2 BSes (which for BS 5 could possibly take in excess of 30-40 days) I'd probably say **ck it and cancel my account. Most of the people that could fly a tech 2 BS would be the same people that pilot capital ships. I'd say if you're going to create a whole new ship to fight the capital class ships just create an entirely new ship class. Perhaps something like an interdictor that drops bubbles that negates capital ships from being able to cyno out & warp out. This new bubble wouldn't affect anything lower than a capital ship however and if a regular dictor dropped a bubble over this bubble the regular dictor bubble would have no effect.
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:42:00 - [105] Edited by: Ansuru Starlancer on 06/05/2007 01:38:33 Originally by: Taurequis Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution. Bang on. The only solution i've come up with in my mind was to triple the size of 0.0. It sure wasnt this blobby when the entire of 0.0 was populated by less then 5k people at any time. Taur 00h! Let's reopen the Eve-gate and conquer the Milky Way!!!! Aside from that, kudos to the OP. Bertox > Drinal tho :p Oh and killing gods with 20 people while recognized "top guilds" do it with 60 ftw :)
Zrevak Ashek Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.05.06 02:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Asylum Seaker Skilled and experienced players tend to gather under one banner in any game. In this game most of them have gone to BoB it seems, or other 'elite' corps. Perhaps when some of these players get sick of supporting a titan instead of having actual PVP, they will feel like going else where and the power will be redistributed a bit. That could only be a good thing. That is very true. Most of the vets only want to be in corp with other vets. BOB has alot of beta players that never quit eve, so it was only natural that more and more remaining veteran players went to BOB. You have no idea how frustrating it was for me being in huzzah ..and being one of maybe 3 ppl in fleet that could t2 snipe fighting BOB where their entire bs fleet used t2 sniping to their advantage and, basically, just made the Huzzah fleet useless. ..take Hans Roaming f.ex. When he finally could use large t2 guns it was "byebye HF and hello MC"... And this prolly happens all the time.
Alcononymous Caldari Zanpaku-to	Posted - 2007.05.06 11:49:00 - [107] Edited by: Alcononymous on 06/05/2007 11:49:57 simple solution. limit corps to say 200 and alliances to say 3 or 4 corps and limit the amount of ppl an alliance slash corp can set blue and remove dd my opinions are my own and don't represent the corps Ladies and gentleman, it is my honor to announce that congress has passed legislation making communism illegal world wide, the bombers ar
Horobi Redwing Caldari Unquestionable Prosperity	Posted - 2007.05.06 11:52:00 - [108] People complained about blobs and more blobs which was obvious a problem and needed to be fixed. BUT IN FACT! it wasnt fixed. The tree of problems just got another branch instead of being fixed by the root itself. CCP cant fix the mind of people who think its good to move only in large nummer. I AGREE with these people that numbers are needed exspecial to take out important systems... BUT ... no one thinks about the possible way to split fleets and attack at several important points at one time! An idea in my head said reduce max gang member count but who cares if you cant share information by writing we use teamspeak or ventrilo so this wont work... lets think elseway. OUR the REAL world has wars itself and wars are won by equipment, number, tactical behavior.... where i guess you will all agree do we find by several corps and allys in this game. The COLD WAR ended with the showing up of a possible atomwar. You can see this bomb as mighty as a titan if you want... JUST! ... dont forget that the use of this OTHER THAN A TITAN have also influence on your own country and thats the only reason of peace SO IT WAS GOOD from ccp to avoid this because it would obvious be peace than.... But as ever the one with the most well organised / best industrial force is the one winning from this by just massproducing this "superwaepon" to an advantage. No one has a doubt that DD need to be fixed... and as it was allready told it wouldnt have any sense to make it expensive since the people who build one can also afford this. Maybe you call it also abuse that people just use their DD but they use a tactic even if its a carebear one... a real effective carebear one. Just the fact that you cant stop it makes it imbalanced. So far i can only see that a forcefield can stand it so i thought about implanting a "mobile forcefield"... JUST TO ADD ANOTHER BRANCH TO THE TREE.... you can see several problems in the forcefield aswell.... Now let us mention what happens if DD get removed. Titans stil have GREAT gang bonuses which can be really important EXSPECIAL in blobwars. Their gangwarp to another system is probably THE BEST WAY of sending in new pilots other than only dead ships into combat which also avoid the posibilty of geting "blobed" at a gate. alone this will make titans stil used and will make them to REAL GOOD tactical fact which we shouldnt forget. I personal would like to see titans (since they all seem as you can dock at them) as flying station you can also setup to mine / repair / reequip /.... which can only fight in some kind of siegemode but thereforce gets a hilarious number of fighters or sentry guns or whatever. Just the MASS-destruction is the NATURAL ENEMY of the NATURAL fact that the number of your enemy can be overwhelm you. BUT OUR HISTORY ITSELF told us ITS GOOD!!! only the mass of the people overwhelming the forces of our governments made it able to continoues CHANGE THE WORLD and a static world is THE LAST THING you want when you play an MMORPG or any other kind of games because it becomes boring. Even today things mostly change because of this... people are not only what they proof themselves to be... they also are what we make out of them. SO GIVE US THE CHANCE! to change this by building up something with power... power no one of us can bring up at our own! Moral is one of the most important things in war. Dont fight for you homeland... dont fight for your own... fight with your friends to do something you all want to have been made. Moral is today not influenced by number its now mostly influenced by technical superior power which is not changeable anymore for new people even not if they group together. this just cant be the way you want this to go... but in the end i can just speak for me and i dont want it to go this way because i started to like this game and the people i met in it... enemys and friends.... -Horo
stephane devaulx Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:07:00 - [109] i think the titan suit well in eve universe the problem is not the titan, the problem is game mechanics: DD threw cyno and bumping ships out of pos in warp for the DD threw cyno why not even if it becomes hard to kill a titan, for the bumping in pos;, it is not fair. CCP says it is ok, but they should explain why a titan on one hand can bump other ships in pos and on the other hand don't stay stuck in the pos
Axia Firehead Amarr Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.06 13:30:00 - [110] Originally by: Enthes goldhart why do u all hate titans? i mean sure they can wipe a fleet out in 1 go but have u seen how much time and effort they cost to build? they deserve to be an i win button as tbh if any old fleet could take out a titan noone would want one.... atm there are like 7 in the game 2 have been killed are 1-3 have been killed before launch out of 70000 player that is not many. also tbh u can just warp out if a titan comes in (especially if u are part of a 20man gang....) evryone ses that titans are imposible to kill but i havent seen any real attempts to kill them. people used to say teh same about the mothership but many have been killed in combat these days. so if your gonna wine, wine about people being able to change stront lvls so the pos comes out of reinforced when there is noone online!!! or logoskis or exsploters rather than somthing that has helped this game along if we are following your idea, then a single BS , du tu the cost of it, must be abble to destroy, in 1 click several thousand of T1 frig. all of you taht are saying that , because the cost of a titan, it s normal to destroy any ship up to BS in 1 click should think back at this. when i will wee 1 BS able to kill 500 T1 frig in 1 shot, then, i will be ok. but, rigth now, i m not. 1 BS cost around 750 frig to build. 1 titan cost around 250 BS to build. then, following your idea, 250 BS should be abble to kill a titan, rigth? then, why it s not possible? why a cruiser can be kill with less then 10 frig? why a BS can be kill with less than 20 frig? why a titan CANNOT be kill with ANY NUMBER OF BS? that the main issue. balance is broken, badly broken. that s a fact, not a theorie. but, well.. it s not the case. Primary Target
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:19:00 - [111] Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 06/05/2007 22:20:07 so, why was the mass blobbing not an issue before the goonies? or, did i miss it, and the goonies are the ones that invented swarming a system to the point where it shuts down? edited: this was rather in response to the op.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:11:00 - [112] Originally by: Asylum Seaker Skilled and experienced players tend to gather under one banner in any game. In this game most of them have gone to BoB it seems, or other 'elite' corps. Perhaps when some of these players get sick of supporting a titan instead of having actual PVP, they will feel like going else where and the power will be redistributed a bit. That could only be a good thing. Thats actually a very good point. Now I always like to play on the underdog side for some reason. I guess it's more challenging than joining up with the best already. But lets look at it this way: From what i've seen lately is bob-blobs going from 1 system and they always seem to have the same strategy. Support (quite minimal) 50 give or take 10. Camp the gates/stations Carriers 20 orso : Deploy fighters , sometimes in pos something in the open Dreadnaughts 20 : Destroy posses Motherships 2-4 : Go to posses the dreads aren't shooting at and try to bump out ppl or deploy sentry drones and generally fly around quite a bit or shoot at the posshield. Titans 1-4 : Go to posses the dreads aren't at and try to bump out people aswell. They are also used for crowd control in case the defending alliance is big enough to challenge their support(doomsday) So basicly : Support/Carrier get stuck with the boring camps or overly easy ganks (no challenge) Dreadnaughts yawn while taking down posses. Titans and Motherships having all the fun at the hostile posses. Heck if i had to camp for 3 hours, move to new system with jumpportal, camp new system for 3 hour i'd get bored aswell after a while.
Sextus Licinius Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:15:00 - [113] The titan in its current form is a major fukup, you can only kill it with capital ships, but where is the fun flying a cap ship because your personal skills don't matter, ew don't matter, tactix don't matter etc. The way things are going atm everyone will struggle to make as much money as possible so they can eventually buy themselves a titan or a huge blob of dreads, so is easy to imagine how fights will look in a year - static megastructures apearing through cynos shooting each other and then go mine some more for a few months to buy another cap ship to lose in a few minutes. Right now everyone is just trying to get your ship agressed at some station or gate only to undock or spawn a mamaship or titan on ur head. I don't call this pvp, CCP makes even fantasy pve games look more appealing in the near future. Understand on thing CCP, this is the best game ever not because its played in space, but because of the pvp which you are destroying. "He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man"
rgreat Gallente OEG Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 16:21:00 - [114] Edited by: rgreat on 07/05/2007 16:23:07 Originally by: Axia Firehead 1 BS cost around 750 frig to build. 1 titan cost around 500 BS to build. then, following your idea, 500 BS should be abble to kill a titan, rigth? then, why it s not possible? why a BS can be kill with less than 20 frig? why a titan CANNOT be kill with ANY NUMBER OF BS? that the main issue. +1. Main problem is - Titan is invicible (unless you use logoff abuse), so there will be more and more of them no matter how much they cost. Imagine fleet of 10 titans? Then imagine 10 of such fleets... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't worry. I struck you with the back of the sword. Oh, sorry. This sword's double-bladed.
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.07 17:45:00 - [115] All this capship boredom and borderline exploitation got me to thinking... What if there were regions where capital jump drives were unable to function (calibrate), regions devoid of all capital ships? I think it would provide a valuable "middle ground" between the super-power super-capital alliances, and the smaller, conventional warfare alliances. -------------------------------------
Enre Sung Market Control Paradigm	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:12:00 - [116] anyone saying titans deserve to be overpowered because of the time and effort put into them has probably never played swg. Alpha class killed that and it will kill again. I love the anti blob argument because all we need now is to get some apes and wait for winter
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:43:00 - [117] Whatever, create the dd effect to stop blobs, but please don't make the titan invunerable. It's the complete package that the titan currently has that makes people dislike it. Remove its ability to cyno dd, remove its ability to be immune to EW.
Dea Nova Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:55:00 - [118] What we need is a weakness on the titan, say a ill-advised exhaust vent port leading to a reactor, that can be exploited by a plucky young inty pilot who talks to his dead mentor.
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:12:00 - [119] yeah no problem with titans EXCEPT that they are way to invulnerable. If your enemy got just one you can fit your fleet to counter a dd. There should be a timer that after the doomsday activation the titan cant jump out or get away for lets say 20-30 seconds or so. This will remove the stupid solo use of this supercapital, it would be vulnerable without a good fleet to support it.
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:12:00 - [120] Edited by: General Cane on 08/05/2007 14:08:38 yeah no problem with titans EXCEPT that they are way to invulnerable. If your enemy got just one you can fit your fleet to counter a dd. There should be a timer that after the doomsday activation the titan cant jump out or get away for lets say 60 seconds or so. This will remove the stupid solo use of this supercapital, it would be vulnerable without a good fleet to support it.
icmp Caldari Screaming Fist	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:13:00 - [121] Why not make Titans, or even every type of Capital require some sort of 'upkeep' to run? I used to play Star Wars Rebellion a lot, and the way that it prevented any faction from building too many Super Star Destroyers or Death Stars or what have you is that they required resources to keep online, and if you don't have the resources to pay the upkeep, boom, the thing blows up due to a maintenence shortfall. I'm not suggesting anything quite that extreme here - maybe just upkeep to keep the Titan or Carrier or Mothership running - so whenever a Capital isn't docked, it continually uses isotopes (the rate being dependant on the class of ship - Titans would take much more than a Carrier) and then DDs, Cynos etc. use these same isotopes. This way the capital pilot has to worry about if he stays on the battlefield too long, does he have the gas to get home? Or if he blasts off a DD, will he have enough gas to prevent himself from going offline in the middle of the battle. This could also give new players a very useful task - keeping the capitals fueled while they're on the field.
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:16:00 - [122] way to much micromanagement for this **** isnt it? :)
Klariso Troben Minmatar Vaportrail Logistics Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:50:00 - [123] Don't know if this has been mentioned but just make the Titan a POS killing machine. Keep all the logistical benefits of having a Titan, ie.. being able to move fleets around and all that jazz, just make the DDD a targeted massive damage affect that only effects POS'. Now this will cause a problem with Dreadnoughts but dreads still have other uses. Make it expensive to fire the DDD, 1bil+. Make a system shut down timer after using the DDD, maybe 5-10 minutes, where the titan can't do jack. And prolly a few other things but can't bother thinking of them atm.
Teech Minmatar The House of Keys	Posted - 2007.05.11 19:08:00 - [124] I think switching the DD cooldown to 24 hours would help. It would certainly stop the DD being used on small-medium gangs. It would also mean that if you kept your omgwtfblob of doom in two halves, then you wouldn't lose ALL your ships. Might even cause the use of bait fleets. It would certainly mean that tactics involving titans would be about trying to get them to set if off at the wrong time/place. Once they do that - then the field is level. When I first heard of the DD, I was under the impression it was a 24 hour cooldown - now I just think it's a good idea.
Reifahal Gallente Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.12 11:43:00 - [125] Edited by: Reifahal on 12/05/2007 11:45:48 Jesus christ guys dont u get it. Those not in favor of titans and caps want eve as it was. If eve we're to be as it was all "old" chars would leave the game. What new to do -what new to train - nothing. The game becomes boring and so on. CCP has to keep the game running by adding new content and new choices. Just because titans and caps are ingame now doesn't mean roaming gangs are gone. Or small gangs for that matter. The game evolves and so has the players. For those wanting to have 20-50 man vs. the same go to low sec or stay out of the big fleet battles. Personally i remember when i fought atuk we had like 200vs200 fleets allmost without lag and servers had 10k people on it. That was then. This is now. Adapt or dont - just stop nagging about it!!! CU on the battlefield

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