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Meriatalantra
TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:44:00 -
[1]
Looking over the forum posts it appears that certain people are of the mind that Titans are ruining the game. I would like to put forward a counterpoint that Titans are the only thing holding the game together right now. To do this, I will need to make references to another MMORPG. Apologies in advance if this is deemed inappropriate but I feel it is needed to illustrate my point.
Right now, certain faction in the game have been drawn together in the realisation that mass numbers can overpower almost any threat in the game universe. To make things clear, I am talking about the Goonswarm and nobody else. Why single out GS? Because we tried to put something very similar together eighteen months before GS touched the Eve servers (TerraDyne Syndicate has a long history of innovation, inluding being the first Tempest manufacturers, instrumental in the manufacture of the first Nyx, creating proposals for the first POS network etc). We failed due to a lack of time to organise the member corporations into anything which could take on the bets of the 0.0 fleets, although, coincidentally, we did name ourselves The Swarm as well. GoonSwarm have succeeded where we failed by creating a cohesive union of pilots able to form mass balls of ships which can overpower almost any target through sheer weight of numbers. But lets return to the theory which led TerraDyne to originally envisage The Swarm itself. For that we will need to look at EverQuest.
Way back in time, I used to play on the Drinal server. SOE, the Everquest manufacturers created a content pack, Planes of Power, which prevented access to deep content without first conquering earlier content. The earlier content was tough enough that only the most powerful guilds could hope to beat it. And so myself and a couple of friends created the biggest zerg squad the game had seen to that date. Three hundred players rampaged into each zone and beat the bejeezus out of the end bosses, followed by another eight hundred running in to gain the tags from the end boss's ghost to allow them access to later content. Minimal tactics and equipment was needed. We drowned the end guys in a sea of flailing medium to low level junk and stole all their stuff.
We proved that huge numbers can overpower enemies which would ordinairily require advanced tactics and equipment to defeat. So why couldn't this work in Eve as well? The answer is it can and will if enough people are thrown at the problem. Think about China's diplomatic responses in the cold war. You may be able to kill a million of our soldiers but we will replace them with ten million more!
But in the difference between Eve and Everquest is that the content is mainly player created. There are no end bosses (ignoring complexes), only end player organisations, some more organised than others but still living, vibrant arrays of gamers none the less. Would it really be fair to allow their efforts to be brushed aside by merely flooding the server with bodies in the same way that we did back in EQ?
SOE ended up having to recode the game on all servers because our actions on Drinal went against how they wanted the game to be played. It seems that CCP have seen how the game was moving already and have responded early to the threat of mass player buildup by creating the most unholy area effect weapon the game has seen. The result is that organisation and tactics can now stand toe-to-toe with the mass body zerg approach and have a fair chance at being victorious. Surely this is a good thing?
Of course, there may and probably will come a day when those who control the thronging masses become able to exert the same level of discipline and tactical organisation of the smaller and yet better run corps in Eve. When that happens...well...it will be interesting to see how the power map changes.
Just my opinions. I am sure we all know who will agree and who will disagree but constructive comments are always appreciated.
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Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:48:00 -
[2]
None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG.
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podd0r
Fudgepackers R Us
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:49:00 -
[3]
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Meriatalantra
TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Meriatalantra on 04/05/2007 13:49:01
 Originally by: Serapis Aote
None of that explains why an alpha class is a good idea in a MMORPG.
Yes I realised I did not spell it out so here it is.
A Titan with a mass area DD effect is the only thing that can stop a megasized (400+ ships) fleet other than yet another megasized fleet. It's a braking mechanism to prevent overpowering of objectives by sheer numbers alone. SOE achieved this by putting caps on the numbers that could beat a particular objective at one time. Seeing as all objectives are effectively player created in Eve there has to be another mechanism and in this case it's the Titan and its Domesday Device.
Sorry, I should have been more specific but ran out of characters.
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carric
Caldari
Barely Legal Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.04 13:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: carric on 04/05/2007 13:48:28
Edited by: carric on 04/05/2007 13:48:15
I agree, the Titan is a good blob killer. To bad the production of it creates even larger blobs.
_______________________________________
SAY NO TO STATION WALKING TODAY!
Rohk and Rook pilot.
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Garnet Strife
Gallente
Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:07:00 -
[6]
Dont Troll -Eldo Davip([email protected])
I WANT A SIG! |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:08:00 -
[7]
Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Amerame
Section XIII
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:09:00 -
[8]
And too bad it encourage cap ship blobing, since capital ship become 100% safe from support ship in fleet. The problem is not so much that it kills blob, but that a war were the only fight that matter involve just dreadnoughts is a bit ... boring ? (ok carrier can get a limited role also). Why having hundreds of different ship, if you're just using half a dozen in the end ?
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Thon Enay
Spearhead Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:11:00 -
[9]
Massively Multiplayer?
Pfft, create a Titan to stop massive amounts of co-ordination by a single player?
EVE now reminds me of R-Type when you used your superweapon and owned everything on screen.
EVE is not massively multiplayer anymore. Everything CCP are doing is to stop "blobbage" which too many is how you play "massively multiplayer" games.
If you don't have a titan, then get out of 0.0 basically. Way to populate 0.0 CCP.
/me claps.
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Karunel
Princeps Corp
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:11:00 -
[10]
Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms.
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Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Atreus Minmatarius
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Atreus Minmatarius on 04/05/2007 14:12:04
Edited by: Atreus Minmatarius on 04/05/2007 14:10:45
the magic word in MMORPG is: BALANCE
titan is prety much the oposite of that. there is no balance here. if you do not have balance in mmorpg it will suffer. ppl get ****ed off and leave.
Eve however has always benefited from the fact that there is simply no alternative to it. If you like fantasy mmorpg and you played wow for awile you get bored or don't like the road the game is taking you go play some other of the 10+ out there. The case is not such here. That is why CCP is getting away with pretty much whatever they want. They hardly listen to anything and any changes take forever. Oh and that thing of "player created content" is the biggest copout in mmorpg ever. I can't wait for some alternative to come around then you will see how they will begin to listen... For some reason however noone want to make anything but *** fantasy mmorpgs... 
but anyway what you gona do, right? go play LOTR???
what i say is my own opinion and does not
represent any entity other than myself |
Meriatalantra
TerraDyne Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Karunel
Nice story but I don't think your comparison of PvE to PvP is really valid in game design terms.
Interesting. Please elaborate.
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Sniperpirate
Minmatar
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:19:00 -
[13]
btw fyi I THINK TRUST make the 1st nyx :P
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Memer Of The Xetic Alliance/Immensea Federation
The Good Ol Days ^^
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Elmo Pug ([email protected])
http://www.magic-night.net/waaa.jpg |
Karunel
Princeps Corp
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:22:00 -
[14]
Will do but you'll have to wait I can't write a long post atm. 
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Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:23:00 -
[15]
The problem with your argument is that there are already technical and arbitrary limits on the numbers that can be brought to battle in the game. There has always been a technial limit on how much one node can handle before it dies, and more recently, the imposed artificial cap of 700. Any major 0.0 alliance can bring those numbers, or call in friends if necessary, so there is really no need for a single pilot to be able to kill hundreds with the press of a button.
If what you are suggesting is that skill points and better equipment should always prevail over numbers, then we should all just cancel now, because someone already has that segment covered.
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Atreus Minmatarius
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: NATMav
The problem with your argument is that there are already technical and arbitrary limits on the numbers that can be brought to battle in the game. There has always been a technial limit on how much one node can handle before it dies, and more recently, the imposed artificial cap of 700. Any major 0.0 alliance can bring those numbers, or call in friends if necessary, so there is really no need for a single pilot to be able to kill hundreds with the press of a button.
If what you are suggesting is that skill points and better equipment should always prevail over numbers, then we should all just cancel now, because someone already has that segment covered.
correct, the op says that the titan has solved a problem. ok.. but it created a bigger one. it cannot be killed. doesn't it strike you as very inapropriate for an online game that the only 2 titan that have died have died OFFLINE??? that must be the mother of all irony.
what i say is my own opinion and does not
represent any entity other than myself |
MKeeper
Midnight Cartel
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:36:00 -
[17]
Just seems somewhat ironic that a ship/weapon designed to take out a blob can only really be killed by a blob
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Caol
The Nest
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Meriatalantra
It seems that CCP have seen how the game was moving already and have responded early to the threat of mass player buildup by creating the most unholy area effect weapon the game has seen. The result is that organisation and tactics can now stand toe-to-toe with the mass body zerg approach and have a fair chance at being victorious. Surely this is a good thing?
Being pedantic, CCP has not ruled out the capital fleet zerg...has it?
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Koronos
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.04 14:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution.
Exactly.
Meriatalantra the problem with your story, as I see it is, consider the alternative to the way your situation in everquest played out. You said only the best and strongest would have had access to these endgame areas. So, they are _already_ the best and strongest, now they get these new weapons and items that make them even more powerful and separate them even farther from the rest of the player base.
On the one hand, fair play, they worked for it (ish). On the other hand, seems to me that is likely to kill the game. Whats the point of new players joining if even the second tier can't touch the first tier. In a game that the designers envision as primarily pvp oriented, that's a problem.
But really, Joshua pretty much said all that needed to be said.
Koronos
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:04:00 -
[20]
Your reasoning is faulty because of the following reasons:
1) If your argument about balance would be true - that 500 people should not be able to rule 50 people - then the opposite would hold some truth and that is ricidulous: that 50 people could rule 500.
2) If the titans' doomsdays would be only used to counter massive blobs of 100ths of ships then they would be indeed used as CCP said, as a counter to massive blobs. But...the recent history showed that titans are used even against small groups of 10-20 ships. And that is entirely crap. My suggestion: make using the DDD very expensive!
3) The more titans will come into the game, the worse it will become. One or even two titans are, well, annoying, but more than that are surely killing the fun!
4) Instead of BS blobbing we will see capital ship blobs. I am waiting to see the first goonswarm blob of 200+ capitals. I wonder if CCP then will do something...
The Privateers were right, PvP in 0.0 is bad, it makes no sense - endless pos waiting, blobbing, getting doomsdayed even in small gangs... Now that PvP in high sec is also nearly impossible, what is there left?
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Nai Ling
Amarr
Middle Finger Technology
Ghosts Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:17:00 -
[21]
Not trying to flame you here, but I think you forgot to explain your point why Titans are good. You mentioned the GS numbers, and then went off on a tangent. Care to explain the meaning of the thread topic? I'm a bit confused here.
Also, SOE did not make Everquest. Verant Interactive created Everquest. SOE just published it.
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R'adeh
Gallente
Gekidoku
Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Just because CCP created a problem to stop another problem doesn't mean either problem is a good solution.
I agree with Josh 
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My views are my own and I don't represent my corp. |
Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:25:00 -
[23]
The basic problem I have with a Titan's doomsday weapon is that the core of a fleet - battleships are rendered obsolete. No battleship can remain an effective sniper and tank a doomsday.
The shortening of range for Battleships, has just by coincidence made Titan's doomsday all the more powerful. Doomsdays' have made blob warfare even more of a requirement. Whereas before you needed 100 bs for a fleet - well now you need 500 as you're going to lose half to a doomsday. That is, area of effect weapons require more ships not less for a fleet action.
By the way, I agree with the general proposition that Titan's are ruining the game. A virtually invulnerable ship with the ability to destroy a fleet in a second does not sound very balanced to me.
I keep seeing sigs which state someone very senior in CCP saying that no ship is a wtfpwnmobile yet here we have one.
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Garnet Strife
Gallente
Acid Enema Of Doomed Gerbils
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Garnet Strife
Dont Troll -Eldo Davip([email protected])
Sorry i didn't realise telling the truth was called trolling in iceland.
Are you in bob as well?
I WANT A SIG! |
BobGhengisKhan
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:27:00 -
[25]
I don't get it tbh, all people seem to do is spew contradictions from their mouth. You whine when people blob, and whine when there's a counter to the blob. Hypocrits the lot of you. Instead of being *****s maybe you should come up with new ideas instead of spamming FIX IT FIX IT NOW FIX IT FIX IT
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Sergio Ling
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:29:00 -
[26]
CCP don't want to get rid of the blob because it's bad for combat.
CCP want to get rid of the blob because ti eases server pressure.
That's fine, and understandable, but Titans can't have been truly designed as a method to decrease server pressure, surely? I refer you to Winterblink's Wisdom
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This is a Shuttle. It is used to assign Templars, Amarrian fighter drones used by Carriers. They don't tank very well. - Alyth |
Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lowanaera
Titans do nothing to stop blobs, they merely raise the baseline ship needed to participate in a blob to a capship. The result is that anyone who can't fly a cap is useless. All the varied and interesting dynamics of fleet combat, snipers, support, tacklers, positioning, warping to range, etc all gone, as well as the possibility of participation from anyone who hasn't been playing a year bare minimum, and more realistically 2-3.
Titans do nothing but create stagnation. In order for systems to be taken, POSs have to die. In order for POSs to die, capitals have to be exposed for a lengthy period of time with advance warning of the exact time and place. In order to prevent them from dying messily to a defenders fleet, they require a support fleet of their own. If the defenders have a Titan, the attackers support fleet is obsolete, the capitals won't engage or do so with great risk and likely heavy losses, a few people total get to do any actual fighting. If both sides have a Titan, both fleets end up sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. Yay, that sure sounds fun, huh?
POS warfare in its current form requires blobs, period. Saying "we need to counter blobs" and introducing completely unbalanced mechanics that don't make the game fun for anyone to do that when the existing mechanics require blobs in the first place is taking a bad situation and making it worse, and damaging to the game. Should POS warfare require blobs? I don't think anyone is arguing that. However, it does, and removing fleet-to-fleet combat entirely via Titans just grinds 0.0 warfare to a halt and makes it no longer fun for all sides.
The real net effect i've noticed from Titans coming in is that practically every pvper i've met says fleet combat has gone to **** and the game is less fun.
That alone should be setting alarm bells ringing at CCP. Especially when you take it in the context of a gradually falling online numbers (record was set back in the start of Jan).
Taur
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Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:50:00 -
[28]
Quote:
How do you stop 10 friggin' Titans without a huge counter-blob?
You don't. You can't! But that day is coming sooner, and CCP has done something horrible to 0.0 warfare. It is an absolute disaster in it's current state, and gets worse with each passing week.
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Blaxxor
Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:53:00 -
[29]
No Titans are bad. Titans destroy , small scale PvP , destroy small Allianzes while not able to defend , destroy FUN for new Pilots in small Ships up to BS. Titans destroy Fleet PVP in all aspects and the number of Titans will raise.Titans force you to build Capitalfleets of Dreads and Carriers.
Anyway , i will leave EvE. Pirates of the burning Sea is my Hope or Age of Conan.I am nothing and a lot say the same like me ^^ have fun with Titans.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Frontier Trade League
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Posted - 2007.05.04 15:56:00 -
[30]
Titans in no way have cut down on blobs.
In fact the titans made the blobs worse, despite being able to kill most of the first blob that attacked them.
What really combated blobs was the hard cap limit the devs have imposed of 700 pilots in a system. At the same time this pretty much stagnated the war to the point almost no real progress has been made since the battle at the BoB shipyards when the limit was first enforced.
The Titans are a major problem in EVE. They are an I win button. They along with the limits of 700 per system have led to the pretty much stagnate fighting. Most progress being made is by folks getting bored with the war and leaving alliances and thus giving up ground that way. Not by fighting.
Titan DoomsDay weapons need a complete overall.
I would suggest removing the remote detonation ability.
Furthermore they should have to enter a siege like mode before firing their doomsday and while firing it. This mode should take around 30 minutes to enter and around 30 minutes to leave.
This would force the Titans to be on the battlefields. Force them to be at least nominally vulnerable to the opposing fleet.
You alternately could remove the area of effect and the remote fire ability. Instead transforming it into a single target weapon of mass destruction. In this case its power should be increased to incinerate any dreadnought or less in a single blow. Then reduce the time between shots to 15 minutes. No siege mode required in this change. Fuel per shot remains as it is currently.
EVE is suppose to be risk vs reward. Currently in the game the Titan faces no risk, but reaps a tremendous reward. A single firing can destroy billions of isk, while not at all risking the Titan that fired it. Hardly a good risk vs reward ratio..... I hope the DEVS will revisit the Titan particularly its Doomsday Device and make changes to encourage rather than discourage combat.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Thoughts expressed are mine and |
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