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This is the end of trade in empire as we know it

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Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:46:00 - [211] Hasn't the risk vs reward ratio been moved to far in favor of the attackers? If, as suggested, a Domi can be made cheaper than the isurance payout, what is the negative effects of ganking a freighter? I mean you have an activity that can potentially produce a lot of reward for very little risk? And what options does the frieghter have? Do to what I believe is an over sight by CCP, the ability of drones to continue attacking makes ganking the freighter much easier to happen then probably desired. Add to the fact that a scout is not much help. True, a group of Domi's at the gate is a dead give away, but with as cheaply as this can be done, couldn't a group of dedicated players join an NPC corp, or create several small corps that could avoid easy detection. But lets face it, you dont even need to go to that much hassel, just hide of the gate away from the scout. If you look at the escort idea, it wont work. Unless you brought a rather large fleet of support ships (which may be what CCP wants) then their is no real way to protect your frieghter. As to the suggestion that your 2 support ships can protect the wreckage until help arrives is faulty. A simple solution is to have a frieghter standing by belonging to another corp than the one that was the original attacker. I am all for freighters being vulnerable to attack but right now their is no disadvantage to attacking one. Why not drop the insurance payouts for those ships involved with a criminal activity. Also allow frieghters the ability to add mid/low slots. Heck, why not do this. Add low slots (your choice of number). Then do some math, figure out how much space would be added if you filled the low spots with expanders, then reduce the base cargo capacity of a freighter. This way you can either equip your ship for defence or cargo capacity.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:49:00 - [212] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:32:17 "failed because they gained nothing whatsoever." Not as far as the person losing the freighter is concerned. They have STILL taken a massive loss. This will drive any trade-for-the-sake-of-trade people out of business. AGAIN. Yes, the gank squad, in destroying the freighter, but not recovering the loot, gained nothing whatsoever, thank you for agreeing to my point. Originally by: Maya Rkell "Oh and if the æsuicide squadÆ waste time on the escorts that too is mission failure" Assuming they die BEFORE concord arrives. Bad assumption. If the escorts get picked on first, the gank squad gets jammed to merry hell before taking out the freighter - mission failure. Originally by: Maya Rkell "Trade existed just fine before freighters" For a smaller ship, you just kill it with less BS. Your point? Yes...everyone recalls that suicide ganks on industrials completely destroyed empire trade before the era of freighters... Originally by: Maya Rkell "a few successful suicide ganks here and there are going to be a drop in the ocean" It's being done on an industrial scale (pun intended), and will rise quickly. It's highly profitable, ffs. I can accurately predict from past trends the effect on trade, yes. It's been seen before. This is the tip of the iceburg. Fear of losing your entire cargo is as good as losing it for shutting down trade.. I think it will balance itself out in the long run, suicide ganks on industrials did not shut down empire trade before, I seriously doubt it will be any different this time (no, YOU do not know for sure, so stop pretending to do so...) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:56:00 - [213] Originally by: Dolika Whoever is talking about flying with 2 buddies in BS's for protecting the wrecks: Minutes after being ganked i had 6 Battleships blinking red hovering around the wreck. If those two buddies would decide to fire upon any of those they would get vaporized in a moment and CONCORD would not lift a finger and being correct in doing so. Linkage to the pic (see the red squares) In your screenshot there are 80+ Concord Battleships around the wreck, if those '6 Battleships' interfered with the downed freighters escort (say 2 Battlships), while said escort defended the wreck and shot up the flagged 'loot freighter', they would be near insta-vaporised... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:02:00 - [214] before we go about another few circles in this endless discussion of subjective rights and wrongs... i want everyone to take a look at the backstory... since when is empire ganking = common occurance? or are we going to use the "eve is what you make it" ideology and hence make freighters obsolete ? yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them talking about theories and this and that does not further your cause - from the current facts we can already discern that freighters that make a 5-10% profit but provide goods to where they would otherwise not be, or come overpriced will NOT be doing any further runs this WILL affect the economy and i am glad this thead is on the first page - I think everyone should start doing this until eve is broke currently it is not broke and most of the crying is for a very few freighters that were mostly unprotected ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:03:00 - [215] @Ki An: A scout does nothing, apart from forcing people to use logon traps, that HAS to be the oldest trick in the book and im amazed you didnt think about(or maybe not). Also i find your escort idea funny just a few points to point out why they dont do anything: 1) All you need are a few dudes in shuttles moving the smaller valuable loot from the freighter wreck to some jettisoned cans. Sure your escorts can shoot the shuttles, but that loot is now in THEIR cans, and you cant scoop it back without getting the target of a most likely superior force(they planned it remember?). 2) Just have your freighter scoop the loot in the wreck, and three or four frigates suicide by using ECM bursts in your escorts while another webs the freighter who aligned before scooping the loot and has him instantly warp off. Substitute the ecm burst for whatever you feel like basicly, you just need to break their lock for a split second. 3) Even if the aggressor choose to dont loot the wreck, your escorts cant prevent ransoming of the wreck. Yes you read right. Your shiney billions that survived in that wreck are just a kestrel away from going poof, you better pay up. Besides i think there is a gross misconception about how much 15 domis cost after insurance. Just running the numbers out of my memory domi insurance is about 20 mil, ship cost is about 50 mil, and payout about 62 mil. Meaning each domi costs you about 8 mil, add another 5 mil for a basic t1 fitting(guns 200k each, a few plates, t1 eanms, ogres 50k each + whatever) with some ogres I and we get 13 mil. So we have a grand total of 195 mil after insurance. Ofc some stuff will survive and you can salvage the ships if some scavanger isnt faster. So in reality even if you move a single billion worth of stuff and only 500 mil survive its still a profit for them. P.S. And they dont have to "hunt" for freighters either, just wait at a gate leading to a busy highsec system, there is bound to be freighters moving around there. After all they dont want to kill a specific freigher, but ANY freighter with more than 1 bil, which greatly increases the liklyhood of encountering one.
TerryTigre Dragonquestor	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:06:00 - [216] One argument against low slots for reduced cargo capacity would be that different quality cargo expanders would influence how much was carried on a massive scale. If a new type of expander was introduced, then this would mean freighters suddenly could carry a lot more. Thus it might be better to have freighter sized expanders, of only one type, and only those would fit. That would keep the freighter cargo capacity balanced. But i think the original poster is right, this will change the freighters massively. Even the people saying it wont change much think you need 4 people now to move the freighters. That is, if 4 people are enough to protect them, and that isnt actually the case, the freighters are still dead regardless of the team. Using the team might possibly insure that the attackers dont get to loot the wreck, if youre lucky, have backup, and the attackers didnt count on the backup. Joy. Now, does this change trade on a major scale? I would think so. Is it in favor of the attacker? Without a doubt. It remains to be seen how popular it will become. If it becomes popular and isnt nerfed, i would invest in domini and drone blueprints, and make a profit from those... because those are going to be selling like hotcakes
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:08:00 - [217] Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:09:00 - [218] My patience with stupidity is reached. I am out of this thread. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:16:00 - [219] I'd suggest that all the smart people who suggest remote repairs as a means to counter such ganks try it out themselfes. look at the cap usage of those modules. then think about the lag that 15++ domis with their 75 (90 entities) will create and how much that will be amplified by the concord ships turning up. using drones in a highsec-gank is an exploit of game mechanics (concord doesnt jam your drones) and should be pettitioned. as a fix there should be 2 things done: no insurance for ships destroyed by concord. concord jam lets you immediatelly loose contact to your drones like cloaking would do
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:18:00 - [220] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off?

Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:19:00 - [221] "This is the end of trade in empire as we know it" Because trade didn't exist before freighters were implemented right?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:23:00 - [222] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... //Maya
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:24:00 - [223] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... True, but your locks on the hostile freighter are broken, so no warp scrambling, and since its webbed and aligned it will warp in less than a second. Besides i even doubt that you manage to scramble it in the time between the pilot moving the loot and hitting warp. You know freighters really warp awefully fast once they are alinged and at 100% speed(webbed).
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:29:00 - [225] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:32:00 - [226] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... True, but your locks on the hostile freighter are broken, so no warp scrambling, and since its webbed and aligned it will warp in less than a second. Besides i even doubt that you manage to scramble it in the time between the pilot moving the loot and hitting warp. You know freighters really warp awefully fast once they are alinged and at 100% speed(webbed). We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Ki An My patience with stupidity is reached. I am out of this thread. /Ki i have to say this make me wet myself something silly and have np admitting it
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:40:00 - [228] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:40:43 Originally by: Gabriel Karade ]Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening Try reading then I won't need to put things into caps, eh? And no, they didn't kill trade prior. That was in an entirely different balance suituation and quite irrelevant to the actual situation of today due to it being WAY harder to do these things based on ship balance. Concord showed up far more quickly, and can flagging wasn't an issue. Also, the entire thing is based on things dying BEFORE CONCORD SHOW UP. (See, third repetition, CAPS!) //Maya
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:51:00 - [229] Originally by: Gabriel Karade We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? Ah thats not very nice, so you pick which layer of complexity is "one to many", and it just happens to be the one that counters your argument? Tbh i dont see whats so complex about preventing two battleships from warpscrambling a freighter for the split second he needs to warp. That being said i agree that this isnt a greater problem for the majority of eve players, i dont fly a freighter, and my corp and alliance dont use freighters in high sec either and we live just fine. However i just felt that those "counters" to prevent the suiciding of a freighter are not exactly the best. If we are honest nothing will prevent 15-30 dedicated players from killing any ship anywhere in highsec as they please, getting a profit might be more difficult though. Then again, sometimes my enemies loss is my profit. About the only change i would propose is one to the security hit, i find it a little odd that the security hit for killing a capital ship in empire is the same as that for killing a n00b frigate or shuttle. One of the most important aspects of eve is that you can do whatever you want, but have to live with the consequences. Incase of piracy(suiciding is simply piracy from concords point of view) that is a security hit you have to grind back, and in highsec the loss of your ship. There should maybe be a difference in wether you do little things like ganking poor miners with bantams in belts or engaging capital trade vessels. Since people dont pirate freighters that often it shouldnt inconvinience people to much, its more of a balancing to the more traditional pirates who like to leave with their ships intact and loose standing much faster even though they do much less actual damage(isk wise).
IWantANewJob State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:03:00 - [230] This is an interesting post. If freighters are so easily ganked in empire then we do indeed have a problem. Cost of Freightes will increase. Cost of items transported in freighters will increase. Low end minerals, POS fuel and POS output being the bulk of items moved. Thus the cost of items produced using the same low end minerals and POS will also increase. I can understand the need for a corp/alliance to invest in a fleet of 10-15 Domi's to hit an enemy freighter piloted by an noob corp alt. I do have a problem with "pirate" ganking of freighters in empire as there is no real defence. You can't fit them with any mods to assist in tanking or warping, never mind shooting. Empire should be relativly "safe" and a big ship like a freighter should be able to last more than a minute. The loss for this corp was 15 insured domi's. Isn't it about time that insurance was void if ship loss was to concord? At least that would hurt the "pirate" corp a little more. Making freighter's stronger could also be an answer but that would then affect valid Freighter targets such as wars and 0.0 space combat. Our corp flys 1 frighter and its loss would have a major effect on the corp. I saw that blob and wonderd what had caused it, now I know. At the end of the day we will all pay for it through higher priced materials and goods. Just an alt, looking for a new job for his main.

SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:09:00 - [231] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) ya um the freighter is still lost - to some thats loss enough ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:16:00 - [232] Originally by: IWantANewJob At the end of the day we will all pay for it through higher priced materials and goods. no we wont because the pirates will get all their goods off the loot half of wich got destroyed anyways thats what theyll argue this is going the way of the privateers and it will be changed not if but when ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:30:00 - [233] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? Privs were nerfed (for better or for worse) because they were using the war dec mechanic in a way CCP hadnt intended or, aparently, wished for. Whereas Freighters afaik were always meant to drop loot/wrecks like all other ships; just that it hasnt been till now that theyve come up with an accceptable solution to the insane lag & server stress a destroyed freighter could cause dropping loot. That freighter died saddeningly fast if your log is correct. Then again; your freighter being killed by 15 dominixs really isnt much different from an expensively fitted bs' being ravaged by 15-20 T1 frigates. Its just the way it is, bad for some, good for others: fun when your doing it, sucks when its done to you.
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:56:00 - [234] Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? Privs were nerfed (for better or for worse) because they were using the war dec mechanic in a way CCP hadnt intended or, aparently, wished for. Whereas Freighters afaik were always meant to drop loot/wrecks like all other ships; just that it hasnt been till now that theyve come up with an accceptable solution to the insane lag & server stress a destroyed freighter could cause dropping loot. That freighter died saddeningly fast if your log is correct. Then again; your freighter being killed by 15 dominixs really isnt much different from an expensively fitted bs' being ravaged by 15-20 T1 frigates. Its just the way it is, bad for some, good for others: fun when your doing it, sucks when its done to you. This begs the question; did CCP intend for freighters to be taken down so easliy with so little cost to the attackers? I dont think that CCP expected drone boats to by pass Concord, or really put much thought into how cheaply a fleet of Dome's could be bought together. Couple that with the insurance payout and you have to ask if this is what CCP wants.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:29:00 - [235] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:40:43 Originally by: Gabriel Karade ]Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening Try reading then I won't need to put things into caps, eh? And no, they didn't kill trade prior. That was in an entirely different balance suituation and quite irrelevant to the actual situation of today due to it being WAY harder to do these things based on ship balance. Concord showed up far more quickly, and can flagging wasn't an issue. Also, the entire thing is based on things dying BEFORE CONCORD SHOW UP. (See, third repetition, CAPS!) I am reading Maya, you just aren't reading my replies fully. If the gank squad pops the freighter first the escort BS's would not die. If the gank squad targeted the escort first, Concord shows up and jams the gank squad, the freighter wouldn't die. In short an escort would still be around to guard the wreck and prevent a 'loot freighter' doing it's job because you'd have to kill them before the 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene insta-frag you. The whole gank scenario relies not on killing before Concord shows up, but rather having enough firepower left hitting the freighter (hence using Domi's with loads of drones) to finish it once they do show up. And if you go a long way back it wasn't 'way harder' it was infact way easier, with the likes of cruise missile kestrels suiciding industrials... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:39:00 - [236] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:41:25 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... Obviously freighters have a purpose. However, I'll give you a billion isk (made through trading ) if you can prove that the lack of freighters will bring an end to trading. Please do it. I need some humor in my life . That, and of course the fact that this is the original topic in the first place. EDIT" I just noticed you help to build my case Quote: Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... So.. suicide ganking is easier on smaller ships? I agree. Notice that suiciding smaller industrials has been around for a looong time. Has trade stopped because of it?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:39:00 - [237] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? Ah thats not very nice, so you pick which layer of complexity is "one to many", and it just happens to be the one that counters your argument? Tbh i dont see whats so complex about preventing two battleships from warpscrambling a freighter for the split second he needs to warp. a) You have to have another suicide squad ready to jam the escorts long enough for the 'loot freighter' to escape. So now we need a suicide Battleship squad, a freighter setup to land perfectly within scoop range of the wreck and a suicide EW frigate squad to help this freighter escape. We're up to 30 people v.s. 3 so lets bring in in more escorts to counter the counter-escorts hmm wait a second what was that about increasing complexity and implausibility?... b)You assume ECM bursts work first time perfectly, and the frigates would last long enough under mass Concord fire (basically as soon as those frigates activate a module they are dead) to stop the escorts preventing the 'loot freighter' running away with the swag. c)This is starting to get off topic ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:44:00 - [238] can we all agree on one thing ? concord jams you - so you arent meant to keep attacking once the concord force arrives - drones bypassing this ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE agreed? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Admiral Pieg Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:44:00 - [239] Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. ______________ Pod from above.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:50:00 - [240] Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up.



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