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This is the end of trade in empire as we know it

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Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:53:00 - [241] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:49:10 double post
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:54:00 - [242] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:57:00 - [243] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:53:51 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot Those two are mutually linked. Talking about one is talking about the other; The loss of a freighter is directly proportional to the reward of the ganker and vice versa.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:58:00 - [244] This is a good thing IMHO. All the non-freighter pilots in empire can now make a little bit more money. I was already tired of so many freighters in my system. Is imposible to compete with those pilots on the market unless you get your own freighter too.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:03:00 - [245] yeah, I stopped using freighters to transport things myself, and started to build where I sell, (not that great though..) that or you can time your freighter runs in the weeee hours of.. whatever eve time where is 12k ppl on... but yeah, I would be happy if they give me afew mid slots (since low would fit expanders...) and enough PG/CPU to fit some shield hardeners. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:04:00 - [246] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:53:51 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot Those two are mutually linked. Talking about one is talking about the other; The loss of a freighter is directly proportional to the reward of the ganker and vice versa. They may be linked but not equal. Right now the risk is too low for attacking a freighter. You can adjust the risk vs reward ratio for the attackers without touching the freighter.
Caplan121 Amarr Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:17:00 - [247] I guess we just have to live with the fact that Freighters are no longer a safe in Empire. But you have to keep in mind that if this ganking business catches on , look for them to hang out around the main trade hubs.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:34:00 - [248] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 23:31:00 Okay.. Im going to stop this quote pyramid . Originally by: Jayson Lee They may be linked but not equal. Right now the risk is too low for attacking a freighter. You can adjust the risk vs reward ratio for the attackers without touching the freighter. I never said they were equal. As for the second part of your statement, I fail to see how suiciding a freighter is different (risk vs reward -wise) from suiciding on an industrial, albeit on a much bigger scale.
IWantANewJob State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:34:00 - [249] I really don't think that CCP intented the the Freighter Ship to be able to be ganked so quickly and so cheaply. I wonder if fittting capital armour/shield boosters would be the answer. It would make little differnce to the afk Freighter Pilot but could help those that use Warp 0. Just an alt, looking for a new job for his main.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:22:00 - [250] Gabriel Karade, no, you clearly are NOT reading. Again, you're making an assumption which simply dosn't hold true in many situations. Sigh. "And if you go a long way back" This was a SPECIFIC reference to "when freighters came in", and before THAT. Not at some point where balance was even MORE different. And the thing is, sure, 30 people are needed to gank it. They still made a load of ISK, and the 3 lost it. And the 30 can repeat over and over and over. Your point? It's STILL death to trade. Athanasios Anastasiou, we beat you. Get over it. I'm not "proving" anything, it's evident from knowing anything about theory of games. "If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ?" This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. This tactic has only just been started by one group, and the thread starter has made the mistake of hilighting it as a good, working strategy. You can expect instances of it to quickly become more common, and freighter usage to fall off. That it has not yet fallen off proves nothing whatsoever. And no, the freighter pilot cares not for the gankers. They've taken a loss, end of story. The DIFFERENCE between this an an industrial is that you can reasonably escape gankers in many industrials against a few gankers. Scale to freighters and 15BS? There is nothing, nothing AT ALL which the freighter can do. //Maya
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:24:00 - [251] What % of freighters get ganked? I'm guessing a very small percentage, a fraction of 1% What % of freighters that get ganked are alts of 0.0 residents? I'm guessing almost all of them. So what's the problem with having alliance shipping get cut off, why is that an issue? I'll rephrase the question. Why should I care if a BoB freighter alt full of T2 stuff never makes it to empire because of a D2 domi gank fleet in .5? Why should that be a concern for CCP? Eve is a PVP game right? Right? Right. You know that anything can get ganked at any point right? Right. So why are we here talking about a freighter that got ganked? From a human perspective, if that was me that lost a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff...that would hurt. On the other hand, if you can afford a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff, you prolly own a few T2 BPO's, and this is prolly not your first shipment, you prolly make 4 bill shipments of T2 parts into empire weekly. Like I said, I might be sympathetic if some empire miner lost his freighter full of isogen. But when its someone's freighter alt losing his bi-weekly 4 billion isk T2 parts shipment, losing 1 shipment doesn't even hurt him financially.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:35:00 - [252] "Why should I care if a BoB freighter alt full of T2 stuff never makes it to empire because of a D2 domi gank fleet in .5?" Why indeed? Well, what then about the independent who loses two freighters full of gear and quits, pushing up prices? THAT is a concern. Alliances and and do take countermeasures. Individuals and non-alligned small corps are forced out the market. This means that, even more, you're in an alliance or don't bother loading Eve. That cuts off anyone who can't dedicate a lot of time to Eve, given the demands of Eve alliances on peoples time. "On the other hand, if you can afford a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff, you prolly own a few T2 BPO's" Sigh. T2 BPO's are NOT the road to wealth some people think they are. The vast majority are NOT that profitable. And the big T2 sellers I know, with a single exception (and that because he got the Cap Recharger II) BOUGHT their T2 BPO's using profit from trade! Drop the sterotype, it dosn't work. //Maya
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:42:00 - [253] Originally by: Maya Rkell Gabriel Karade, no, you clearly are NOT reading. Again, you're making an assumption which simply dosn't hold true in many situations. Sigh. "And if you go a long way back" This was a SPECIFIC reference to "when freighters came in", and before THAT. Not at some point where balance was even MORE different. And the thing is, sure, 30 people are needed to gank it. They still made a load of ISK, and the 3 lost it. And the 30 can repeat over and over and over. Your point? It's STILL death to trade. Athanasios Anastasiou, we beat you. Get over it. I'm not "proving" anything, it's evident from knowing anything about theory of games. "If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ?" This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. This tactic has only just been started by one group, and the thread starter has made the mistake of hilighting it as a good, working strategy. You can expect instances of it to quickly become more common, and freighter usage to fall off. That it has not yet fallen off proves nothing whatsoever. And no, the freighter pilot cares not for the gankers. They've taken a loss, end of story. The DIFFERENCE between this an an industrial is that you can reasonably escape gankers in many industrials against a few gankers. Scale to freighters and 15BS? There is nothing, nothing AT ALL which the freighter can do. You make me smile. I'm somehow 'beaten' by something that is 'evident from knowing anything about the theory of gaming,' yet you refuse to say what it is. Comon.. free billion if you do... Originally by: Maya Rkell This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. I suppose that you aren't biased at all about this matter. Looks at the amount of flames you've posted on people disagreeing with you Nope, you're not biased at all . Hypocrisy is bad okay?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:09:00 - [254] Claiming ignorance of the near past is transparent. As I said.. And no, I don't flame. I happen to hold a viewpoint counter to that of your bias. And I'm not afraid to point out that it, unlike your argument, hangs together under critical analysis. //Maya
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:15:00 - [255] Originally by: Maya Rkell Claiming ignorance of the near past is transparent. As I said.. And no, I don't flame. I happen to hold a viewpoint counter to that of your bias. And I'm not afraid to point out that it, unlike your argument, hangs together under critical analysis. So, then, what do you propose as a solution?
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:19:00 - [256] Originally by: MacDuncan Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Or maybe just the known alliance alts in NPC Corps stopp hauling the "war goods" afk on a 2nd/3rd/4th Acc. through the "safe empire"...but only maybe... I never really noticed cheap T2 mods anywhere outside of a major trade hub anyway. stretch S'why I have alts to work the Jita run.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:20:00 - [257] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 03:17:11 Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Well my suggestion is to whine and whine and whine and whine and get all your mates to whine so many times in so many threads that something done about it. SKUNK I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:45:00 - [258] Originally by: whisk YARRRRR YARRRRRR> òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:01:00 - [259] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. I'm all for the 'Eve is a freeform game' bit, but this has got to be stopped. Why the hell did they make freighters drop cargo? What did that solve? It solved the original problem they had when freighters popped out huge amounts of stuff into space and lagged the hell out of the game. What's wrong with this is that freighters are the only ship in the game that can't have fittings. People who flew them in the past rationalized this with the fact that they couldn't drop loot even if they got blown up, which made suicide ganks for profit impossible. Now that it is possible to gank, they need to consider the fact that the only ship left in the game without fittings just got a whole lot more appeallig as a target, especially without escort. At least one lowslot needs to be added to freighters for their own defense, WITHOUT nerfing any of their other stats whatsoever. Also insurance payouts should be revoked for empire suicide ganks where concord is involved, for the ganker.
Hellman109 Gallente Magnetar Ltd Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:11:00 - [260] ^^ a low slot would allow cargo expanders though... upto 27.5% increase in space IIRC with T1/T2 stuff.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:25:00 - [261] Originally by: Hellman109 ^^ a low slot would allow cargo expanders though... upto 27.5% increase in space IIRC with T1/T2 stuff. If they want to be an idiot and fit cargo expanders...more loot for the gankers. I'd be fitting a damage control and eanm II('s). You'd need a lot more domi's with that much structure at 60% resists.
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:43:00 - [262] Originally by: Cipher7 No, because removing insurance could be seen as discouragement from ganking in highsec. Believe it or not, in Eve you can profit from PVP, its called PIRACY. Attacking civil transportation in highsec for-profit is no less valid than mining veldspar. The original pirates of the high seas had no one paying them if they lost their ships attacking a treasure Galleon, why should you expect to be paid insurance?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:53:00 - [263] Originally by: SiJira can we all agree on one thing ? concord jams you - so you arent meant to keep attacking once the concord force arrives - drones bypassing this ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE agreed? -------------- ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:20:00 - [264] Originally by: Swirler How is it that whenever something comes along that makes the game fun again, pussles like you want to fix it? Leave it alone. Concord/Cops can not be there all the time, just like real life. Thats fine, get rid of insurance payouts resulting from criminal activity "just like real life"!!!
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:36:00 - [265] A lot of people seem to think its actually worth ganking 90% of the freighters, did you actually bother to think about that? If you have 20 Suicide Domis, it means you split the reward /20. Add to that the fact that the freighter might have stacked cargo, that might just as well blow up with the ship. It's totally avoidable to pose a target.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:49:00 - [266] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Except that whinebears like yourself want to increase those losses to suit your agenda. If the costs of ganking in highsec become prohibitively expensive, it is the same thing as having a big "YOU MAY NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER" flashing over your ship. Highsec ganking should occur, it should occur often, it should hamper commercial shipping, and one should be able to make a profit from it if he picks the right target and has good intel. Removing insurance would remove the profit. Spend 1.5 bil to loot 1 bil is not a profit. Spend .5 bil to loot 1 bil is a profit. Piracy = PVP for profit. Carebears want all highsec piracy to result in loss, so that it does not occur. Removing the insurance would not necessarily remove the profit. Many folks (primarily pirates) whined that freighters weren't dropping stuff. Now they do becauase CCP caved in and allowed a ship that has no means of defending itself has been allowed to drop loot. This has now created a out of proportion risk vs reward situation. I'm not suggesting anything more than the removal of insurance, because the other three options I don't believe are realistic for EVE and would serve to hurt the game more. It increases the cost of the gank but does not ensure you can't make a profit. 1.5 billion as you say to loot 1 billion isn't worth it. Well that's true. However in the case of the OP it wasn't 1 billion worth. It was much more than that. They still would have made a profit killing that particular freighter. It means that the pirates would have to work harder, use cargo scanners and ensure the target was worth the effort of the operation. Something that is very reasonable. I also suspect they had less than a 100 million in each of those Domis. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:50:00 - [267] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni What I don't get yet is why people think folks flying in highsec should need to take the same/similar precautions when flying around as those in lowsec/no-sec, no matter what they are flying. Isn't that kinda defeating the whole point of highsec? Yes it does.... Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:57:00 - [268] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. Wouldn't deter a suicide squad. AFter all their goal is to kill the freighter. They have already commited to losing their ships and they can easily tank the blasterthrons long enough to pop the freighter. How many battleship pilots you know that are willing to do this escort duty on a regular day to day basis? 2 guards would not be able to stop everyone from looting. All the freighter would have to do is align first before stealing anything get up some speed, open the wreck make the cargo switch and warp. (Could even use a tackler to help the warp faster...). Much like in life, you can't stop a determined assassin. No precaution you take is good enough, if the assassin is willing to die to carry out the mission he will be successful more often than not. I don't think hp boosts, module slots or making Empire completely safe are good options because it affects much more than ganking. The only really workable option is to remove the insurance payouts for criminal activity. It still allows you to attack the freighter. It will even allow a profit in some situations if you pick your targets carefully. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:05:00 - [269] so anyone going to gank all the freighters in rens ? because i counted over 10 different ones today some of wich did multiple trips to rens also isnt there that glitch that ccp never fixed that one can do to save a freighter? log off and when you go on other character it dissapears wether aggroed or not ? or did they fix that with the last patch ? ( im pretty sure they didnt) i mean if you think drones attacking after their owner is permajammed is an exploit then you might as well exploit to survive ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:08:00 - [270] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Except that whinebears like yourself want to increase those losses to suit your agenda. If the costs of ganking in highsec become prohibitively expensive, it is the same thing as having a big "YOU MAY NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER" flashing over your ship. Highsec ganking should occur, it should occur often, it should hamper commercial shipping, and one should be able to make a profit from it if he picks the right target and has good intel. Removing insurance would remove the profit. Spend 1.5 bil to loot 1 bil is not a profit. Spend .5 bil to loot 1 bil is a profit. Piracy = PVP for profit. Carebears want all highsec piracy to result in loss, so that it does not occur. Cipher, try to be logic and look at the real world: there is piracy, but where? in the third world zones where police or national navy are inexistant, not along the costs of the more developed nations. It as always been so. Even during the ages of the galleons ship weren't pirated near Spain or Portugal but in high seas. EVE must follow the same thrend. Only in the event of a war, against a war target, it should be possible to attack a shipe in high sec. Corporation are using neutrals to ferry goods, whell that is what happen even today. Even during WW2 and WW1 there were neutral ships trading between the warring nations, and they were untouchable unless it was possible to do so without discovert. Look the official motivation of the USA entering WW1: the sinking of the Lusitania. Beside passenger it was moving war material, but it was a ship of a neutral nation, so sinking it caused a big diplomatic incident and gave the USA government an excuse for is population to join the war.

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