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This is the end of trade in empire as we know it

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Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Dolika on 04/05/2007 19:06:17 Edited by: Dolika on 04/05/2007 19:00:30 Edited by: Dolika on 04/05/2007 18:59:48 I took the picture a few minutes after the lag cleared out. 15 Dominixes popped my freighter and i had no chance whatsoever to get away. Freighter was dead before CONCORD even arrived on the scene. EDIT: arrr the picture is not showing. Anyone can come look at the CONCORD blob @ Kaaputenen gate in Niarja and the scores of lag is creating (for me at least) Linky: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0705/freighter_dead_in_empire.JPG Shipwrecks count 14: I cut out the chat window to remove the private conversations ;) Hopefully it wont get banned for that from eve-files http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0705/freighter_dead_in_empire_2.JPG
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:02:00 - [2] Picture doesnt show. Anyway, sounds a bit strange that only 15 ships could kill a freighter that quickly. Or maybe Concord was slow for some reason. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:03:00 - [3] Can you post the link and not the pic? tEve-O doesn't like hotlinking.. See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:05:00 - [4] Clicky Clicky heres you Piccy
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:05:00 - [5] Please link your picture instead of hotlinking it. I'd be very surprised if this is the first time it happened, freighter getting popped in highsec, since the change to have freighters finally drop loot. Hmm, only 15 Domis ? Now, THAT is a bit odd. Well, you were in a 0.5 sec system, CONCORD is notoriously slow in responding there... but still, only 15 Domis ? Ouch. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:06:00 - [6] Wouldn't armor repping and shield transfering support help solve this?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:06:00 - [7] Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:09:00 - [8] Edited by: MacDuncan on 04/05/2007 19:06:53 And wasn't it announced several days before that someone produced a bunch of Domi just for that sole propose (freighter high sec ganking)? Edit: found it... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=514052 A nice job while afk'ing in a freighter: Forum whoring... -- Might As well Train Another Race
Marquis Dean Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. I'm all for the 'Eve is a freeform game' bit, but this has got to be stopped. Why the hell did they make freighters drop cargo? What did that solve? --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:12:00 - [10] Edited by: Sokratesz on 04/05/2007 19:08:41 Originally by: Wendat Huron Wouldn't armor repping and shield transfering support help solve this? Lol. Do a DPS calculation on 15 domis with T2 ogres, then think again. My alt flies a basilisk and unless you bring like, 10 of them, it aint goinna work.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. I'm all for the 'Eve is a freeform game' bit, but this has got to be stopped. Why the hell did they make freighters drop cargo? What did that solve? AFK travel. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:15:00 - [12] It started at: [ 2007.05.04 18:39:07 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Pinsel [CE]<D2> hits you, doing 76.9 damage. and ended a mere 38 seconds later: [ 2007.05.04 18:39:45 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Ogre II belonging to Littlebird places an excellent hit on you, inflicting 250.7 damage. that's how long it took 14 Dominixes to chew through a freighter.
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:16:00 - [13] LOL D2??? That's why your KB is in private mode... -- Might As well Train Another Race
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:18:00 - [14] Oh btw. I was NOT, i repeat, NOT flying afk. If i were i would not be able to do this when i saw a bunch of domis on gate with their drones out: [ 2007.05.04 18:38:53 ] (notify) Autopilot warping to Madirmilire stargate [ 2007.05.04 18:38:53 ] (notify) You cannot do that while warping. [ 2007.05.04 18:38:58 ] (notify) Ship stopping [ 2007.05.04 18:38:58 ] (notify) Autopilot disabled [ 2007.05.04 18:38:58 ] (notify) Autopilot disabled [ 2007.05.04 18:38:58 ] (notify) Ship stopping [ 2007.05.04 18:38:58 ] (notify) Ship stopping [ 2007.05.04 18:39:02 ] (notify) Warping to Stargate (Madirmilire) [ 2007.05.04 18:39:06 ] (notify) Pinsel: You have foolishly engaged in criminal activity within sight of sentry guns and must suffer the consequences. I jump on autopilot but then i cancel it and warp to the next gate manually to travel faster ;)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:23:00 - [15] What was in the freighter btw, and what was the estimated value of it? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Countess Amarra	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:25:00 - [16] Ouch only 38 seconds. That doesn't give anyone much time to respond. Whats this anyway, the 4th one this week in empire?
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:26:00 - [17] yea, i noticed the D2 tickers in the pictures as well..... there is no different then suiciding haulers in jita..and that only takes a single BS. they do stand to lose money depending on what you are hauling and how much is popped. I think its a fad that will die out, simply takes too many people with too much investment for a random return. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:27:00 - [18] Estimated value, i'd say, was about 3-4 Billion priced at Jita prices. 60+% of the stuff was destroyed though.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Blind Man on 04/05/2007 19:24:36 meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. you had too much value (more then 2b) in a frieghter and flew solo, means you will die :D
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Dolika Estimated value, i'd say, was about 3-4 Billion priced at Jita prices. 60+% of the stuff was destroyed though. Still a bit over a billion ISK in lootables. Nothing to sneeze at. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:30:00 - [21] mmmm shouldn't D2 have more pressing things to attend to?
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:39:00 - [22] I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/05/2007 19:37:29 Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice I predict absolutely nothing will change. All you need is the scanner to avoid it. Ok, maybe not on jumpin... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Jenai'na	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:42:00 - [24] really only 15 domis and 38secs ? thats harsh. but the intention is ok imho. i assume you were a d2 war targets hauling alt and the loss a direct blow to some specific corporations wallet.
Rice Dog	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:43:00 - [25] I so hope they frapsed it
MacDuncan Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Or maybe just the known alliance alts in NPC Corps stopp hauling the "war goods" afk on a 2nd/3rd/4th Acc. through the "safe empire"...but only maybe... -- Might As well Train Another Race
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:44:00 - [27] Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice From the seller's perspective, you make this sound like a negative thing... Odd. The way I see it, having to spread out to find the best deals means that the central market systems like Jita and Rens will be less congested. Certainly more legwork for the buyer, but then, you'd be amazed how far above the absolute lowest price for some things I will pay for the convenience of not having to travel half the galaxy looking for the rock bottom price. Time is a cost factor, and sometimes, its worth the ISKies just to get what I want and get on with it. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 04/05/2007 19:24:36 meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. you had too much value (more then 2b) in a frieghter and flew solo, means you will die :D I fail to see the "pvp" part when 14 Domis mop the floor with a solo freighter in empire without a wardec for a minor sec hit and about 100M isk in fitting costs. Mind that a Dominix can be built for waaay more than it can be insured for and getting popped in one can actually MAKE you isk. I know. I've done it.
Synapse X Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:47:00 - [29] Edited by: Synapse X on 04/05/2007 19:43:57 Edited by: Synapse X on 04/05/2007 19:43:23 Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. Actually concord doesnt respond that fast, I know in .9 where I often suicide on miners, its always either 19-20 seconds in the logs for concord to respond. 1.0 isnt much better, plenty of time to kill a retriever with a destroyer.
Marquis Dean Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Anything Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:55:00 - [31] I wonder how many freighters in actual corps are hit in this way? Perhaps it is more, the end of solo trade in Eve, it now will require corporations willing to aggressively protect their assets? Which is kind of the point in Eve, if you can't fight to protect it, someone else bigger and badder will come along and take it away. And there is always a way to do it, if the will and muscle is there.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 04/05/2007 19:24:36 meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. you had too much value (more then 2b) in a frieghter and flew solo, means you will die :D With the amount of damage done here the freighter would have to fly with a small fleet of it's own, which we both know is never going to happen. I predict this is where traders will soon be able to hire NPC protection to help fend for themselves till Concord arrives. I have to agree with the bobbit on this one, isn't there more pressing business for D2 pilots?
Celestra Ambrose	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:05:00 - [33] Does using freight containers make any difference? i.e. do the containers prevent ship scanners from seeing what your cargo is? Also, I read somewhere that if you have a ganged escort ship with you that webs you, a freighter can get into warp almost instantly. Is this true? If any of the above are viable then I see no reason for CCP to stop high-sec freighter ganking since there's ways to avoid it.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:07:00 - [34] all they really need to do to fix this is not allow frieghters in npc corps. suddenly, you will see alot of escorting. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:10:00 - [35] Originally by: DeadProphet mmmm shouldn't D2 have more pressing things to attend to? That depends. If it was an alt of an enemy in a npc corp then freighter kills are a very good way to disturb the enemies logistics. Imagine that it was full of towers, pos fuel and other such (unlikely, but still...). Or imagine that it was full of t2 equipment which was destinated for the battlefront, or full of fighters... Then 15 BS in a freighter gank are a really good investment!
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:11:00 - [36] holy crap i was just flying through as the dust settled in my providence....lucky me eh? damn, i was just saying "i bet thiis hasnt even happened yet" i now officially change my stance on freighter ganking, its lame, has no use, and your just making more work for CCP. ------------- my sig is teh dead the mods shall not have my sig, if they do i'll kill CCP's hamsters.
turnschuh Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:16:00 - [37] Edited by: turnschuh on 04/05/2007 20:14:03 The hole problem with using suiciding freighters as income is that it just isnt worth it. proft per person = loot dropped / number of poeple needed With an avarange of 20 people needed, this means 1 freighter has carry stuff worth more then 2 billion so that a single person get 100mil profit from that. Inculde the loss of insurance, modules used and that not all loot survives you need to target for freighters wich carry over 5billion in assets in various stacks. Finding those freighters can be utterly boring and you are better of suiciding normal haulers. IMHO freighter suicide is only an option for griefing, economic warefare or "see if we can do it" purposes. It is NOT worth to farm. sadly.
Countess Amarra	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:19:00 - [38] I fully agree with the undock /pvp on ethos, but here is a little point. When you commit a hostile act in high sec, concord appears and jams your ship to stop you doing what you were doing, and they then pop you. The fact that domis are able to do their damage while being jammed circumvents the concord jamming and is a side effect of one of the benefits of a drone boat. This is what I would consider a borderline exploit, as it circumvents the intended protection that jamming would provide.
easei Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:21:00 - [39] doesnt matter how many escorts you have TBH.. 40 seconds isn't going to see the end of the domi's before your freighter is dead. Your fleet can't lock and fire that fast.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:22:00 - [40] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn all they really need to do to fix this is not allow frieghters in npc corps. suddenly, you will see alot of escorting. And this is a good thing? The seller will charge for the escot time and cost. So in the end the fun of a 0,1% of the player base cost to all the other 99,9%.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:22:00 - [41] After looking at the picture all I can say is: Look at the bright side, your skill finish training! now you can train something else.
Gladia Horusthu Gallente Anything Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:22:00 - [42] I know that if I was in an active war and knew my enemy's logistical alts, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Profit? Doesn't matter, as long as I destroy a greater value than I lose. Eve warfare is mainly economic and logistical. I hate the idea of killboards, because what matters isn't killmails but the ISK value of disrupted activity. For example, having a couple of cloaked pilots in a rich system farmed by an enemy can cause more economic harm than a battle-- you lose the value of a pilot capable of T2 ship piloting, and the enemy might lose hours upon hours of highly productive work necessary to continue operations against you. Killing the alts of enemies flying freighters can be extremely useful, because then they have to redistribute manpower and perhaps restructure to try to protect future investments. That is entirely apart from the ISK value of what is destroyed. Effective war in Eve isn't really about destroying, it is about demoralizing and interfering with one's enemy. This is particularly true since alts are so common. Just about every alliance I have had dealings with have had industrial alts. Some set up corps, some just use npc corps to shelter their pilots. I've done it myself, but it still makes me feel...dirty.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:30:00 - [43] High sec freighters griefing has to stop. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:34:00 - [44] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? thats a lot different
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Shameless Avenger After looking at the picture all I can say is: Look at the bright side, your skill finish training! now you can train something else. Nah. Im training up skills on an alt char. Hate giving that 2% taxes when setting up sell orders. It amounts to a fair amount of isk over time ;) The freighter was carrying T2 stuff destinated to the markets of EvE. I am in no way affiliated with any of the corporations hostile toward D2. I would also like to point out my ship was not cargo scanned before being destroyed. At least not without a passive targetter and i would also like to stress i jumped upon arrival so i was not scanned sitting in the opposite side of the gate.
Caol The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:50:00 - [46] Edited by: Caol on 04/05/2007 20:47:58 How to avoid this in the future. a) Fly a scout 1 jump ahead, if he/she spots any 15+ blobs of battleships dock up or take another route. b) Fly with a corp member in a rapier/hugin who jumps with you, decloaks and moves back onto the gate, then as you (the freighter) decloak to warp, he locks and webs you. As he is in your corp he is able to web you in high sec space and you will enter warp instantaneously. c) Fly with an a damnation and/or vulture running the gang link modules that increase your armour and shield resists. One will be you squad leader, the other will have to be you wing or fleet commander. This will boost your resists and possibly allow concord enough time to react and eliminate the suiciders (is possible i guess). Make sure they decloak and activate their modules before you decloak. d) From now on, don't fly your freighter alone in empire.
Mox Trident Minmatar Erimus Blueprints	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:55:00 - [47] Edited by: Mox Trident on 04/05/2007 20:51:37 If you put your cargo inside freight containers no one can see what you're carrying (if anything). Gankers will either leave you alone thinking you have nothing in your cargo hold or take a big risk in blowing you up in a hope that you're using freight containers with valuable loot inside them. Afaik even the actual containers themselves don't even show up on a cargo scan so your hold looks totally empty. Capital Ship BPC packages now available from Erimus Blueprints
Kusanagi2501	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:56:00 - [48] Ganking an afk hauler is one thing, they deserve it, but this is ridiculous. A 1 billion + ISK ship should not die so easily and so quickly under any conditions. Freighters simply need fitting slots for defensive capability.
Kiviar Caldari Dirty Sanchez Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Caol d) From now on, don't fly your freighter alone in empire. QFT There are lots of ways you can avoid having your freighter taken out. Dont settle in to a routine, this makes it easy for people to track you. Never fly with more then 2billion in your hold. Always, always fly with escorts. Even a single scout can help avoid disaster. However, these steps seem to require a level of common sense that most NPC corp freighter pilots lack. Therefore all I can say to you is remember to insure. Forums are what?
Kusanagi2501	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn all they really need to do to fix this is not allow frieghters in npc corps. suddenly, you will see alot of escorting. Escorting freighters in high-sec! NO! Who are you going to find that wants to spend his day doing that! And I thought mining was boring!
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:07:00 - [51] Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. Getting killrights of everyone participating and being able to trade these would be nice.
Athena Attom	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:17:00 - [52] Am I correct in thinking that it was d2 suicide ganking a freighter in empire? fix it dont nerf it.
Shiguni Jhi	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:19:00 - [53] I'm still trying to grasp the idea of a gang suiciding a freighter for some type of gain in empire space. Are people really that bored and unimaginative? How many better ways are there to make money or to pvp? Either there are some amazingly bored and lazy players or just some people with sick ideas of entertainment. Either way, it ought to be countered with some kind of faster or latent CONCORD action. If we can't be safe in high-sec in an NPC corp, then that's screwed up.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Kusanagi2501 Ganking an afk hauler is one thing, they deserve it, but this is ridiculous. A 1 billion + ISK ship should not die so easily and so quickly under any conditions. Freighters simply need fitting slots for defensive capability. Yeah, those big tubs need some slots now. Never really understood why they didn't have them in the first place. If there's issues with too much capacity, just make it impossible to fit extenders. However! I remember some "Tax NPC Corps" threads quite a few months back where people were complaining about big alliances using freighter driving alts in noob corps to do their empire logistics. And those alts were supposedly "unwar-dec'able, untouchable, god mode"... Well, Hidy-Ho 2007! ------------------- Say What?
whisk 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:45:00 - [55] YARRRRR
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:49:00 - [56] Originally by: Mox Trident Edited by: Mox Trident on 04/05/2007 20:51:37 If you put your cargo inside freight containers no one can see what you're carrying (if anything). Gankers will either leave you alone thinking you have nothing in your cargo hold or take a big risk in blowing you up in a hope that you're using freight containers with valuable loot inside them. Afaik even the actual containers themselves don't even show up on a cargo scan so your hold looks totally empty. can you confirm this because regular containers in regular haulers do show up ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Tiberyya Za Gallente Bellum Aeternus The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:51:00 - [57] Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:55:00 - [58] Originally by: SiJira can you confirm this because regular containers in regular haulers do show up Doesn't work afaik. Still, putting expensive stuff together in a container, and have lots of other containers in cargo can still be a good idea. It's a bit of a gamble really, as either all the good stuff gets blown up, or all survive. If you distribute it between two containers there's a fair chance at least half will get blown up. This matters only if you don't plan on taking back your stuff of course... ...which brings us to the problem of NPC corp freighters, as they can't protect their wreck when they get popped. This is what makes a PC corp freighter all the better now that freighters are a target. You don't need 20 escorts to just protect your cargo. Two combat fitted ones should suffice, as they can then guard the wreckage until industrials can be mobilized to scoop what survived. The escort aditionally serves as quite the deterrent for suicide gankers as the gankers have no way of ensuring they will get the dropped cargo, thus making it unprofitable. Problem solved! Keep your freighters in a PC corp. Bring two combat fitted BS as escort. If there's a war on, don't undock your freighter unless you have a suitably larger escort. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Selena 001	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:12:00 - [59] Give Freighters a single hi-slot. They ya can fit a cloak (why in the hell would you bother? lol) or a med / large smarty... or... a D.D.D. C'mon.... you KNOW you want to.... "I'm going down sharon..." Click tick tick tick tick Boom "... Totally worth it " ___________ NATIONAL SARCASM DAY!!
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Tiberyya Za The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor. Gets you concorded yourself + doesnt work near gates. Solution is to give freighters a few slots, if theyre going to be lootable like regular ships they at least need to have a modicum of protection. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:16:00 - [61] Originally by: Tiberyya Za Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor. Have you used either in empire space?
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:19:00 - [62] have you thought of joining a corp or alliance that could offer a protecting fleet? MMORPG != solo Recruiting Terrorists
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:23:00 - [63] Did I misread the patch notes, or is it not the case that dropped cans from a freighter can only be picked up by another freighter? Also, why Dominix's? Why not torpedo ravens? ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire High sec freighters griefing has to stop. Have you been bashed on the head or summat? You've had a major personality change. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:26:00 - [65] Domis because -Theyre cheap, a full suicide fitting means you only lose like 15mil isk if fully insured -Drones keep shooting even after concord shows up and jams and all that -Domis do massive damage without high skill requirements _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:28:00 - [66] Originally by: Del Narveux Domis because -Theyre cheap, a full suicide fitting means you only lose like 15mil isk if fully insured -Drones keep shooting even after concord shows up and jams and all that -Domis do massive damage without high skill requirements Ah, thanks for the explanation, I never realised concord jammed as well as bottom barbecuing! ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Scorched Evil The Silent Rage	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:28:00 - [67] If his unpleasant combat experience in empire has enlightened the rest of you to the grim finish under the glossy veneer of industrial life... then his destruction carries with it an inherent nobility. you say poor carebear... I say, poor us. Workers Rep. Pirate Union, Local 1337
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:29:00 - [68] As I have pointed out before, I abhor the idea of a coordinated fleet of 10 or more battleships being able to take on 1 person flying a defenseless ship alone and being able to win, suffering only the complete loss of the fleet. This is obviously unbalanced. However, sarcasm aside, it'll be nice to see prices rise, more holes in the market for the little people to fill. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Bistot Kid Originally by: Jenny Spitfire High sec freighters griefing has to stop. Have you been bashed on the head or summat? You've had a major personality change. It's not the same Jenny. She sold her character to a carebear. As for freighter "griefing" (lol)... get an escort, don't afk, don't load your hauler with billions of isk if you're not sure... basically just be smart. Hisec isn't the no-pvp zone that many of you seem to believe. Then again, you carebears cry about it enough and CCP will no doubt change the rules just as they did with wardecs. You know you're successful in this game when you get nerfed.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:36:00 - [70] How exactly escort helps? It took them 38 seconds. Not moving lot of stuff in freighter? Well they were made for that.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:44:00 - [71] Originally by: Anson Halleck How exactly escort helps? It took them 38 seconds. Not moving lot of stuff in freighter? Well they were made for that. shield xfer arrays! Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:08:00 - [72] Hmm...CCP could introduce cargo insurance. Because you know if they boost anything in EVE besides combat ships and modules gankers will cry that they can't BBQ a Freighter or Industrial in 38 seconds or less.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:12:00 - [73] I can't believe there's so much whining about this... 1. There are in game counters for a suicide gank. Remote repping BSs. They are a pain to always have to have around, but those are the facts. 2. There is an even better way to protect oneself. That is to keep an escort in the same corp as you with you at all times. That escort need not be big. 2 BS will suffice. The job of the escort is to guard the wreck of the freighter, as they can shoot anyone looting from it. The real job of the escort is to dissuade suicide gankers, as the gankers can't be sure to make any profit if they can't loot the wreck in peace. 3. Those of you saying "Oh well, CCP will nerf this as they did to the Privateers", I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. CCP knew what they where doing when they introduced loot dropping freighters. The era of safe NPC freighters is over. The new era takes a modicum of coordination. I suppose this will all fall on deaf ears, as most people don't want to take in game measures to protect their assets. They'd rather have CCP nerf all combat in high sec so it becomes the paradise every carebear dreams of. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
clone 1 Caldari The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Ki An I can't believe there's so much whining about this... 1. There are in game counters for a suicide gank. Remote repping BSs. They are a pain to always have to have around, but those are the facts. 2. There is an even better way to protect oneself. That is to keep an escort in the same corp as you with you at all times. That escort need not be big. 2 BS will suffice. The job of the escort is to guard the wreck of the freighter, as they can shoot anyone looting from it. The real job of the escort is to dissuade suicide gankers, as the gankers can't be sure to make any profit if they can't loot the wreck in peace. 3. Those of you saying "Oh well, CCP will nerf this as they did to the Privateers", I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. CCP knew what they where doing when they introduced loot dropping freighters. The era of safe NPC freighters is over. The new era takes a modicum of coordination. I suppose this will all fall on deaf ears, as most people don't want to take in game measures to protect their assets. They'd rather have CCP nerf all combat in high sec so it becomes the paradise every carebear dreams of. /Ki QFT. This answer is good enough to be a dev response. Always Moaning About Race Retardations
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:17:00 - [75] I wonder, who'd be interested in a freighter-popping IPO? I can't afford to buy quite that many domis myself, but it could easily be achieved ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:45:00 - [76] i think the real outcome has gone over most peoples heads ... more profitable to gank industrials now than ever before ! mainly ITERON V because every newb will be trying to get the most cargospace ( even tho that ship will be the biggest target compared to other industrials carrying 40-50% less) with the mineral compression items and so forth and it takes a lot less to kill i think we should make a contest for who can get the most industrial kills in 0.5+ in one day and counting in multiples of 5 (if tied prize would get split) would really make people go at it ! ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:45:00 - [77] Provided i am bored enough by the time they cave in to the insane carebear whining, i am going to get 10 accounts with freighter alts, set random waypoints in empire and go do something else while they slowly travel the universe: Character names: "lol afk money" "foidjfdsjfjfdl" "freighter bot01" "freighter bot02" "freighter bot03" "love rose" "[something that sounds chinese]" "50b ISK inside" (going to put 10 Covetor BPOS and a couple t2 BPOS inside and go afk in Jita at a gate). "2b/day afk" (doubt it would be possible with 10 freighters, but truth != fun) any other suggestions for "empire freighter griefing"?
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.05.04 23:46:00 - [78] Meh. People will moan Carebears will whine. The price of logistics ships will increase a bit (yes,that's a hint) Eve will continue. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:02:00 - [79] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Provided i am bored enough by the time they cave in to the insane carebear whining, i am going to get 10 accounts with freighter alts, set random waypoints in empire and go do something else while they slowly travel the universe: Character names: "lol afk money" "foidjfdsjfjfdl" "freighter bot01" "freighter bot02" "freighter bot03" "love rose" "[something that sounds chinese]" "50b ISK inside" (going to put 10 Covetor BPOS and a couple t2 BPOS inside and go afk in Jita at a gate). "2b/day afk" (doubt it would be possible with 10 freighters, but truth != fun) any other suggestions for "empire freighter griefing"? that would make me rofl ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Delilah Blackheart	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:31:00 - [80] I happened to fly through shortly after it happened - there were still pods of the attackers sitting there... CONCORD convention Someone in local said they had looted a lot of faction modules from the freighter wreck. I happened to scavenge a bunch of Dual 250mm Railguns and the same types of armor and shield hardeners (looks like most of the fleet were fitted identically) from the attacker's cans (someone must have already salvaged the wrecks). Apparently a squad (4) of the attackers warped to Niarja I before CONCORD destroyed them, so I had those unmolested wrecks to pick through as well.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire High sec freighters griefing has to stop. QFT Ships destroyed by concord should not get insurance payout. Solved.
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:46:00 - [82] this shows you how pathetic people are getting in this game. How the hell are you supposed to protect a freighter in high sec?
Athena Attom	Posted - 2007.05.05 00:59:00 - [83] HELLO WHO SHOT THE FREIGHTER? COULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME THE CORP SO I DONT DIE! Sorry for caps, hope that got your attention peoeple seem to want to moan more than discuss... fix it dont nerf it.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:01:00 - [84] Originally by: Arron S this shows you how pathetic people are getting in this game. How the hell are you supposed to protect a freighter in high sec? Or low sec for that matter. If concord can't take out a gank squad, I don't see any reasonable fleet doing so. That's just a gone freighter if you want it dead. Just cut our losses, give it slots like a big indy and add in a jump drive hauler from ore. Hauler-carriers make me ill.
Marquis Dean Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:01:00 - [85] Does this mean that if I undock my Rattlesnake in hisec, it might be ganked by randoms on the off chance it contains faction loot? Fantastic. P.S: I sold it, don't bother with the locators. --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:12:00 - [86] Edited by: Arron S on 05/05/2007 01:10:02 anyway, Heres how you fix it, jack up the prices of ships, start selling Domi's for 100 million isk, Megathron for 150 million, etc. Carebears have that power, so remember that,.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.05 01:42:00 - [87] Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt If theres 40 battleships hugging a gate on a pipe in high sec they probably arent running missions or picnicking. Freighter loot is a good thing. Risk/reward etc.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:32:00 - [88] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt If theres 40 battleships hugging a gate on a pipe in high sec they probably arent running missions or picnicking. Freighter loot is a good thing. Risk/reward etc. This is the mentality killing eve. All the alts are taking newbie jobs. Send the alts back to Altico where they belong.
Gavin Darklighter	Posted - 2007.05.05 02:48:00 - [89] Killing a frieghter like this takes 15 battleship pilots to group up, get intel on a target, coordinate an attack, and lose their ships and sec status for potentialy no gain. Ballanced? I think so. Fair for the frieghter pilot? Maybe not, but being "unfair" is what makes EvE special. The only problem I've ever had with suicide ganking is when ppl use disposable alts. Its hard to recycle a domi pilot, you have to grind away your crimes.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:10:00 - [90] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Originally by: umop 3pisdn Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt If theres 40 battleships hugging a gate on a pipe in high sec they probably arent running missions or picnicking. Freighter loot is a good thing. Risk/reward etc. This is the mentality killing eve. All the alts are taking newbie jobs. Send the alts back to Altico where they belong. Explain how? Get a scout alt, get a friend, dont autopilot and your freighters safety goes up 900% Furthermore... not carrying 20bil around does help. If its not worth throwing away 15-30 battleships over then you have to do something really bad to get attacked.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:12:00 - [91] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 05/05/2007 03:09:46 well, not making insurance pay on concord kill would be good enough. and yeah, time for manufacturers to build there they sell lol. edit: and to the guys screaming, get a fleet/repper BS.. 38 secounds is what?... 2 cycles on a large shield transfer? pssst... useless. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:27:00 - [92] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 05/05/2007 03:09:46 well, not making insurance pay on concord kill would be good enough. and yeah, time for manufacturers to build there they sell lol. edit: and to the guys screaming, get a fleet/repper BS.. 38 secounds is what?... 2 cycles on a large shield transfer? pssst... useless. Yeah if you've seen a video of a freighter take down... remote repping will not save it unless there are only just enough BS to kill it before concord takes them out. Scouts are the future.. that and webbing might save one, though drone bumpage would probably kill it anyway.
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:34:00 - [93] I hereby present the best anti-freighter wreck looting technology known in all of Eve, a module that MUST be fitted on every freighter escort ship with the spare slot. A Salvager I Inside the wreck was a vindi and couple other BS, and some varying mods. The mods were dumped in the can. The battleships weren't so lucky though, they weren't in the can and weren't in space, nobody's entirely sure where they went ----- Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.05 03:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Crumplecorn As I have pointed out before, I abhor the idea of a coordinated fleet of 10 or more battleships being able to take on 1 person flying a defenseless ship alone and being able to win, suffering only the complete loss of the fleet. This is obviously unbalanced. QFT. Q ... F ... T. It is simple to get a friend to fly a jump ahead of you in a shuttle. Your cargo is worth it. .
Celestal	Posted - 2007.05.05 04:04:00 - [95] get another account with a disposable alt flying a rookie ship to scout . If you see a bunch of domis with drones out , simply shoot 1 of said domis with a civilian gatling gun gets concord on gate ready to shoot without having to warp in
Kramer Verone Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:11:00 - [96] lmao, some very interesting solutions are presented
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:48:00 - [97] Indeed. The solution hamsters are working overtime on this one. Regards, There is no "g" in whine. There is no "g" in whiner. There is no "g" in whining. This is a whing.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 06:54:00 - [98] Originally by: Celestal get another account with a disposable alt flying a rookie ship to scout . If you see a bunch of domis with drones out , simply shoot 1 of said domis with a civilian gatling gun gets concord on gate ready to shoot without having to warp in i like this idea ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Coconut Joe VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:05:00 - [99] Allow freighters to equip smartbombs, problem solved.
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:25:00 - [100] Originally by: Del Narveux Domis because -Theyre cheap, a full suicide fitting means you only lose like 15mil isk if fully insured requirements Remove insurance payouts for ships that get concorded. risk vs reward goes way up. They can still be ganked for military purposes, just not for profit (or very little if any).
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:30:00 - [101] Remove insure payouts from Concord kills. That is if you lose your ship to concord for a criminal action, SSC doesn't pay the insurance amount, you just violated article 2 of your insurance contract. This would at least eliminate casual use of such tactics. However would still make it viable for someone with intel to kill an opponent's unmarked freighter or other ship. Just with an added cost. Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:34:00 - [102] The only problem I have is that 15 Apocalypses or 15 Tempests can't do the same, it has to be 15 Domis. Ganking haulers is and should always be a part of Eve. Hiding and using hauler alts should not allow you to bypass 0.0 hostilities. By what right does a 0.0 player call ANYTHING "griefing"? I could understand if you were some empire shmuck who mined veld every day for 3 years and had his life work destroyed by 15 random guys with too much time on their hands. But this was hauler ganking of a person who lives and profits from 0.0, which means the profits of the transfer of goods would prolly influence the Eve map down the line. Highsec is "gankable" for this very reason. So people cannot profit from 0.0 and come into empire claiming to be neutral entities. Like I said, I might have sympathy if this was some highsec carebear who got ganked randomly, but it seems you were a well-chosen target, you were not a victim of random violence, you are a party to a conflict, and that conflict came home to roost in highsec.
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:36:00 - [103] Originally by: Mecinia Lua Remove insure payouts from Concord kills. That is if you lose your ship to concord for a criminal action, SSC doesn't pay the insurance amount, you just violated article 2 of your insurance contract. This would at least eliminate casual use of such tactics. However would still make it viable for someone with intel to kill an opponent's unmarked freighter or other ship. Just with an added cost. No because ppl would still whine about it. Eve is a non-consentual open PVP environment where this can happen to anybody at any time. Thats what makes Eve Eve.
VossKarr Caldari The 6th Directorate	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:43:00 - [104] Originally by: Coconut Joe Allow freighters to equip smartbombs, problem solved. Yeah, and get your freighter Concordoken after smartbombing a gate or some innocent passerby. Bad idea. Instead, give it low/middle slots to equip tanking mods. Take away insurance payouts if destroyed by Concord. Problem solved.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:44:00 - [105] Edited by: Anson Halleck on 05/05/2007 07:40:31 Originally by: umop 3pisdn Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt Get a scout alt If theres 40 battleships hugging a gate on a pipe in high sec they probably arent running missions or picnicking. Freighter loot is a good thing. Risk/reward etc. Do you seriously think they are so stupid to wait at gate so everyone can see them? Freighters dropping loot is ok. Freighters being killable by suicide sqads is ok. but Suicide attackers gettins their insurance is bad. Frigates bumping quazillion times bigger freighter forever is bad. Freighters having no single slot for defense is bad. They fixed one part, but forgot to fix also opposite part. Unbalace has been created. Scouts doesn't work - no one is gonna park 30 domis at gate. Escort doesn't work - freighter goes down too fast + there will be a lot of lag involved. Non-AFK flying doesn't work - one frig can keep freighter on place forever.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:47:00 - [106] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua Remove insure payouts from Concord kills. That is if you lose your ship to concord for a criminal action, SSC doesn't pay the insurance amount, you just violated article 2 of your insurance contract. This would at least eliminate casual use of such tactics. However would still make it viable for someone with intel to kill an opponent's unmarked freighter or other ship. Just with an added cost. No because ppl would still whine about it. Eve is a non-consentual open PVP environment where this can happen to anybody at any time. Thats what makes Eve Eve. At no point did I say you couldn't attack them. I just said their should be no insurance payment when a crime is committed. Most every insurance policy I've seen whether fire, life, car, etc has provisions that invalidate the insurance if damage incurred was a result of the owner's criminal behavior. I suspect in the OP case that D2 suspected that it was an alt freighter of an enemy corporation or alliance. Otherwise I just can't seem to think of why D2 would waste the time and resources to attack said freighter. As I said initially removing insurance payout on criminal ships wouldn't remove the option to attack enemy shipping. You'd just have to accept the loss of the ships as a cost of the action. Goes into risk vs reward really. With insurance payments there is virtually no risk to those that take criminal actions, so therefore the reward currently is out of proportion. At least that's how I see it. Galactic Express Recruitment Post Thoughts expressed are mine and
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:52:00 - [107] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/05/2007 07:48:27 We need a War on Freighterism. Go Bush, smite them unholy ones! --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 07:57:00 - [108] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 05/05/2007 07:53:05 Quote: The hole problem with using suiciding freighters as income is that it just isnt worth it. proft per person = loot dropped / number of poeple needed With an avarange of 20 people needed, this means 1 freighter has carry stuff worth more then 2 billion so that a single person get 100mil profit from that. Inculde the loss of insurance, modules used and that not all loot survives you need to target for freighters wich carry over 5billion in assets in various stacks. Finding those freighters can be utterly boring and you are better of suiciding normal haulers. Bingo.
Rasterman Ganja Minmatar GanjaCorp Security Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:02:00 - [109] Originally by: Scorched Evil If his unpleasant combat experience in empire has enlightened the rest of you to the grim finish under the glossy veneer of industrial life... then his destruction carries with it an inherent nobility. you say poor carebear... I say, poor us. Workers Rep. Pirate Union, Local 1337 Gone in 60 Seconds, for the win...
Galea Wildfang Inebriated Consortium Enterprises Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:19:00 - [110] Originally by: Anson Halleck Suicide attackers gettins their insurance is bad. Frigates bumping quazillion times bigger freighter forever is bad. Freighters having no single slot for defense is bad. Agreed, beside probably the last point. Freighters should have a built-in Damage Control (you can't give them a low slot as people will put cargo expanders there and carry capitals through empire again) and/or alot more hitpoints. Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:20:00 - [111] Originally by: Mecinia Lua At no point did I say you couldn't attack them. I just said their should be no insurance payment when a crime is committed. Most every insurance policy I've seen whether fire, life, car, etc has provisions that invalidate the insurance if damage incurred was a result of the owner's criminal behavior. No, because removing insurance could be seen as discouragement from ganking in highsec. Ppl would continue to whine about it "if ccp wanted ppl ganked in highsec, they would have made insurance payout for concord losses" and we would keep moving down the slippery slope of rampant carebearism where every loss is griefing and every wreck is a sob story. DONT FLY WHAT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE. When did we lose sight of that? You put 4 billion isk worth of stuff on a freighter, made it all the way through from your 0.0 space, and got ganked in .5 Good, thats the way it SHOULD be, and the gankage should be reimbursed to encourage more of it. Believe it or not, in Eve you can profit from PVP, its called PIRACY. Attacking civil transportation in highsec for-profit is no less valid than mining veldspar.
Tai Wan	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:38:00 - [112] Man damn unlucky. sounds the CONCORD are like the Calvary (cowboys ans indians) they never seem arrive on time to do their job. CONCORD was probably have a cup of tea with CCP, nah they are in the pub drinking beer, and decided they cannot drink and fly to the rescue. man that really suck for you!!!!
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:39:00 - [113] There's no other way to kill a freighter other than suiciding an unsuspecting victim. I managed to get my gang on a gate with a freighter+escort at the exact same time, someone scrambled the freighter, it jumped, so the rest of the gang jumped after it.. But wait, it logged off mid-jump, didn't ever show up on the other side. An hour later it logged in and docked before we could get near the gate.. So as long as the "smart" players will be exploiting session changing & logoffskis there should be a way for people to target people like this. Oh, and a few bits of information for doubters: a) It was in low-sec b) It was a RA allied freighter c) Petition was useless, as always d) No, we couldn't probe it, it disappeared instantly and was not on scans on either side of the gate. - BOOST OUTLAWS (-10.0 and proud of it)
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.05.05 08:41:00 - [114] Originally by: Ki An I can't believe there's so much whining about this... 1. There are in game counters for a suicide gank. Remote repping BSs. They are a pain to always have to have around, but those are the facts. 2. There is an even better way to protect oneself. That is to keep an escort in the same corp as you with you at all times. Obviously you are not doing any trading. Your points are all invalid for trading freighters. They are only valid for moving around valuable corp assests. Why? 1) Trading makes only sense if you earn the same or more isk as with other business like doing L4 missions. To counter such an heavy assault you would need lots of remote reppers, 1-2 ships wouldn't be enough. So that means that you must share the profits of the trade run with several more people. And that means that trading becomes not profitable any more. And that means end of trading. 2) See point 1. Escorts = more people necessary for a trade run = less profit per person = unacceptable isk/hour ratio. Besides frighter flying is very boring. I want to see the people who happily escort a freighter 30 jumps. Do you say we need more stupid grinding here? As if pos warefare is not idiotic enough. If CCP wants freighter ganks or not, that is a complete different story. If they want it (and it is obviously that they want it because they introduced loot dropping) then people must adept. And people will adept, no doubt about this. In this case it means end of trading. You can be happy about this or you can regret it. But it is a simple conclusion that this will happen sooner or later. You can argue that end of trade is bad for Eve, maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? I don't. But that is a complete different topic. The op said 'this is the end of trade in empire as we know it' and I fully agree. You also agree, because you make several suggestions how to change the trade as we know it so that people are more safe from these ganks....
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:10:00 - [115] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua At no point did I say you couldn't attack them. I just said their should be no insurance payment when a crime is committed. Most every insurance policy I've seen whether fire, life, car, etc has provisions that invalidate the insurance if damage incurred was a result of the owner's criminal behavior. No, because removing insurance could be seen as discouragement from ganking in highsec. Ppl would continue to whine about it "if ccp wanted ppl ganked in highsec, they would have made insurance payout for concord losses" and we would keep moving down the slippery slope of rampant carebearism where every loss is griefing and every wreck is a sob story. DONT FLY WHAT YOU CANT AFFORD TO LOSE. When did we lose sight of that? You put 4 billion isk worth of stuff on a freighter, made it all the way through from your 0.0 space, and got ganked in .5 Good, thats the way it SHOULD be, and the gankage should be reimbursed to encourage more of it. Believe it or not, in Eve you can profit from PVP, its called PIRACY. Attacking civil transportation in highsec for-profit is no less valid than mining veldspar. I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. If you can't afford to lose your Battleship ganking a Freighter, don't do it. The game shouldn't assist you by paying for your ship when you are acting criminally in game. You could still make a profit Pirating. However you would have to attack more high value targets to make a profit if insurance was denied. I'd much rather see criminals lose their insurance payouts rather than hi sec being made completely safe. If enough freighter attacks like this happen and it begins to affect CCPs wallet rest assured they will take some action. Better to take the lesser step and encourage it than to lose any option to attack a non war target in hi sec, don't you think so? Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:17:00 - [116] Ever tried filing for insurance when you used your car as the getaway in a bankheist and it got trashed when you hit that signpost ? No ? Then you shouldnt be surprised when there will be no more insurance payouts if you get concorded. It makes sense.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:24:00 - [117] now that freighters are officially "frontline cpaitals" too they should receive the 500% hitpoint buff all the others got as well. 75 domis to suicide a freighter seams way more appropriate than 15 :D
DaHeaVYFo DEATH'S LEGION Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:34:00 - [118] Originally by: Tiberyya Za Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor. smartbomb on the gate in Empire? funky.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Gnulpie Obviously you are not doing any trading. Your points are all invalid for trading freighters. They are only valid for moving around valuable corp assests. No, they are valid for anyone in a PC corp. As most "trading freighters" are in NPC corps my points become invalid, but that problem is the NPC corpers', and not CCP's. Originally by: Gnulpie 1) Trading makes only sense if you earn the same or more isk as with other business like doing L4 missions. To counter such an heavy assault you would need lots of remote reppers, 1-2 ships wouldn't be enough. So that means that you must share the profits of the trade run with several more people. And that means that trading becomes not profitable any more. And that means end of trading. This isn't about maximizing profits, but about minimizing loss for the freighter pilot. A mission runner in high sec does have a minimal risk of losing his ship. A mission runner in low sec has a much greater risk. A freighter pilot in high sec had, until recently, practically no chance of ever losing the ship. That has now been changed. The freighter pilot must now accept a lower revenue in exchange for a higher security. Risk vs Reward. Just like it should be. Originally by: Gnulpie 2) See point 1. Escorts = more people necessary for a trade run = less profit per person = unacceptable isk/hour ratio. Two escorts will hardly cut into your profits enough to force you out of trading. If they will, you're not very good at trading. Originally by: Gnulpie Besides frighter flying is very boring. I want to see the people who happily escort a freighter 30 jumps. Do you say we need more stupid grinding here? As if pos warefare is not idiotic enough. So? I find mission running boring, but I have to do it to keep myself in the parts of the game I find fun. Mining is pretty boring if you ask me. Still, it has to be done to supply minerals to the market. Boring isn't an excuse for not protecting yourself. Originally by: Gnulpie If CCP wants freighter ganks or not, that is a complete different story. If they want it (and it is obviously that they want it because they introduced loot dropping) then people must adept. And people will adept, no doubt about this. In this case it means end of trading. You can be happy about this or you can regret it. But it is a simple conclusion that this will happen sooner or later. Nothing major will happen. At most, some prices will go up a bit, but that's nothing major. Prices are capped anyway by the reprocessing value of modules and ships. All this means is that lazy NPC corp traders will be forced into PC corps, or out of the business. It's a dog eat dog world, and I cry for you. Really. Originally by: Gnulpie You can argue that end of trade is bad for Eve, maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? I don't. But that is a complete different topic. The op said 'this is the end of trade in empire as we know it' and I fully agree. Yes, the sky is indeed falling. Originally by: Gnulpie You also agree, because you make several suggestions how to change the trade as we know it so that people are more safe from these ganks.... That's not really why I gave the suggestions. I gave them because: 1. People say that there is no way to protect a freighter from suicide ganks, and I proved them wrong. 2. I get tired of whining posts like this. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:49:00 - [120] I have no problem with this - I just don't think it's balenced. I believe two simple changes would solve this: 1) Give freighters slots like any other ship - and adjust the stats so that they only reach current capacity by fitting a full rack of Cargo Expander IIs/Local Hulls - as a bonus - freighters suddenly become even more useful too. 2) Insurance payouts stop if you are the aggressor - everywhere. Then piracy has a higher risk where it needs to. When I went off to the Gulf the first time around I had to make some serious checks on my life insurance in a war zone. The answers came back.... Provided I didn't, personally, start the war myself then the insurance remained valid! But that was the one exclusion. So, I'm sorry - I didn't shoot ****** 17 years ago!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:52:00 - [121] Originally by: Marcus Tedric I have no problem with this - I just don't think it's balenced. I believe two simple changes would solve this: 1) Give freighters slots like any other ship - and adjust the stats so that they only reach current capacity by fitting a full rack of Cargo Expander IIs/Local Hulls - as a bonus - freighters suddenly become even more useful too. 2) Insurance payouts stop if you are the aggressor - everywhere. Then piracy has a higher risk where it needs to. When I went off to the Gulf the first time around I had to make some serious checks on my life insurance in a war zone. The answers came back.... Provided I didn't, personally, start the war myself then the insurance remained valid! But that was the one exclusion. So, I'm sorry - I didn't shoot ****** 17 years ago! If insurance should be made more realistic, it would only be valid for properly escorted non combat ship in high sec. All other ships (including solo flying freighters) would not be able to be insured, as the risk involved is too great to the insurance company. So, remove all insurance, or keep it as it is. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 09:53:00 - [122] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane now that freighters are officially "frontline cpaitals" too they should receive the 500% hitpoint buff all the others got as well. 75 domis to suicide a freighter seams way more appropriate than 15 :D interesting suggestion ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:02:00 - [123] Just a thought, but has anyone actually looked in the development board recently. When those changes come on to TQ, which they will, any lowsec corp worth it's salt will have instant pos to pos transport available making freighter runs in lowsec/nosec totally 100% safe. Yet in highsec where it's suppoosed to be safer, we have frieghter gankage. You tell me that the scales balance. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:07:00 - [124] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni Just a thought, but has anyone actually looked in the development board recently. When those changes come on to TQ, which they will, any lowsec corp worth it's salt will have instant pos to pos transport available making freighter runs in lowsec/nosec totally 100% safe. Yet in highsec where it's suppoosed to be safer, we have frieghter gankage. You tell me that the scales balance. The scales balance. Need I explain why? Ok, then. The scales balance because if the freighters took the same precautions in high sec that they do in low, they wouldn't be ganked. Ever. If they take half the precautions in high sec that they do in low, they wouldn't be ganked. Ever. It is safer in highsec. All you need is two escorts. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:19:00 - [125] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire High sec freighters griefing has to stop. This coming from someone who has obtained bpos by suicide ganking in empire?..
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Jenny Spitfire High sec freighters griefing has to stop. QFT Ships destroyed by concord should not get insurance payout. Solved. i said this ummm 2 years ago... well they could but an even better solution is... you have to have +4 pr soemhting to an insurance corp to get insurance.. and ofc if u get concorded, the insurance company wont insure you again. as your considered a risky afair. then you have to go to pirat corps to get insurance, wich should cost more, last less and so on... insurance companies wount insure suicides come on its logic...
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 12:12:00 - [127] i can't be a$$ed to read all this, requires effort(read the corp name), but after reading some of this, freighters should now be given the ability to tank, but with special Freighter armor/shield mod, that can only be used on freighters and only put in Freighter slots, so ppl can't use expanders and the like to make the freighter haul more. Its prolly been said already but i'm saying it again.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 12:22:00 - [128] Originally by: Mextor i can't be a$$ed to read all this, requires effort(read the corp name), but after reading some of this, freighters should now be given the ability to tank, but with special Freighter armor/shield mod, that can only be used on freighters and only put in Freighter slots, so ppl can't use expanders and the like to make the freighter haul more. Its prolly been said already but i'm saying it again. Freighters do have the ability to tank. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:20:00 - [129] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mextor i can't be a$$ed to read all this, requires effort(read the corp name), but after reading some of this, freighters should now be given the ability to tank, but with special Freighter armor/shield mod, that can only be used on freighters and only put in Freighter slots, so ppl can't use expanders and the like to make the freighter haul more. Its prolly been said already but i'm saying it again. Freighters do have the ability to tank. /Ki Obviously not good enough, when a gang of 15 domis can destroy one in a bit more then half a minute. It's the fact that with an investment of 200mil ISK you can not only destroy a ship worth a billion within seconds (and most likely without any significant remote repping chance because it goes so fast), but also have a good chance of loot worth multiple billions. That is just not balanced. It will be corrected, because pilots tend to exploit unbalanced situations to its utmost extend. Just like with the Privateers, you can easily avoid being ganked. But this involves teamplay and renders solo play for haulers obsolete. CCP will not force Freighter pilots to team up every time they undock, and make Freighter runs a team effort per default. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:30:00 - [130] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Obviously not good enough, when a gang of 15 domis can destroy one in a bit more then half a minute. True, alone a freighter cannot tank 15 domis. Tell me a ship that can (and can enter high sec) and I'll tell you about an upcoming nerf. Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's the fact that with an investment of 200mil ISK you can not only destroy a ship worth a billion within seconds (and most likely without any significant remote repping chance because it goes so fast), but also have a good chance of loot worth multiple billions. That is just not balanced. It will be corrected, because pilots tend to exploit unbalanced situations to its utmost extend. Again, there's nothing unbalanced about it. The same is true for freighters in space of any sec status. Only in low and nul sec most people guard their freighters. Originally by: Juwi Kotch Just like with the Privateers, you can easily avoid being ganked. But this involves teamplay and renders solo play for haulers obsolete. CCP will not force Freighter pilots to team up every time they undock, and make Freighter runs a team effort per default. Yes, it involves team play. Sort of like the team play the gankers are participating in. When will people understand that team > solo? It's not like you need a large team to counter this. Like I have said, two escorts is enough. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:42:00 - [131] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mextor i can't be a$$ed to read all this, requires effort(read the corp name), but after reading some of this, freighters should now be given the ability to tank, but with special Freighter armor/shield mod, that can only be used on freighters and only put in Freighter slots, so ppl can't use expanders and the like to make the freighter haul more. Its prolly been said already but i'm saying it again. Freighters do have the ability to tank. /Ki i would expect a person who has been playing this game for 9 months or so to have an under of how this game works by now, how can any ship tank with NO high, med or low slots, if you want to disagree with something i post at least put something of merit, not a comment that is complete and utter B**sht.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:45:00 - [132] Originally by: Mextor i would expect a person who has been playing this game for 9 months or so to have an under of how this game works by now, how can any ship tank with NO high, med or low slots, if you want to disagree with something i post at least put something of merit, not a comment that is complete and utter B**sht. I would expect anyone to read through the thread before posting in it so that he knows what the hell he's talking about. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 13:50:00 - [133] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mextor i would expect a person who has been playing this game for 9 months or so to have an under of how this game works by now, how can any ship tank with NO high, med or low slots, if you want to disagree with something i post at least put something of merit, not a comment that is complete and utter B**sht. I would expect anyone to read through the thread before posting in it so that he knows what the hell he's talking about. /Ki so i'm guessing ur talking about remote repping?, this is not tanking, and my last comment still stands about ur age and knowledge of this game. and ur comment i have quoted here proves that.
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:03:00 - [134] Edited by: Mextor on 05/05/2007 14:01:57 Originally by: Ki An True, alone a freighter cannot tank 15 domis. Tell me a ship that can (and can enter high sec) and I'll tell you about an upcoming nerf. i would also like to point out to you that a freighter is a capital ship, it is just an non combatant capital ship. so you have to class dreads and carriers in this tanking 15 domi category as well. its just dreads and carriers are not able to go in to high sec because they have the ability to fight back, thus meaning it takes a massive amount of concord ships to take one out, creating a massive amount of sever lag which i one of the main things CCP are trying to decrease.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:05:00 - [135] Originally by: Mextor so i'm guessing ur talking about remote repping?, this is not tanking, and my last comment still stands about ur age and knowledge of this game. and ur comment i have quoted here proves that. I am talking about remote repping, yes, and it is tanking just as much as anything. I do not profess to be an EvE wiz, but it is obvious that I take more care when I post than you. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:05:00 - [136] I would like to clear some stuff up because some people are commenting on this and they appear to have no clue whatsoever what they are talking about. I was flying the "safe" route between jita and amarr. My freighter has never ever entered lowsec or 0.0. The corporation i am affiliated with has NO stake in any of the 0.0 systems in EvE so it was not an attack on a hostile corporation's freighter alt. Why they chose to gank my freighter? I guess you can ask the D2. I remember seeing Wotankn on the killmail... Now some food for thought: Hudreds of freighters come to trade hubs on a daily basis. They bring in massive amounts of everything and Jita for example is the place to go to buy basically anything at really low price. The low price exists for the sole reason the competition is extremely fierce. In 24 hours i get outbid by 10+ people on every item i sell. This means that the fierce competition is keeping the prices down dispite the massive demand. Fact that not everyone can produce in the Jita 4-4 station also remains. This means everything traded there must be hauled from systems near and far. If the freighter gankage continues, and it most certainly will, because the punishment for doing the deed is a minor security hit and about 0 isk because BS's can be built for about 20M isk less than the insurance payout. Yes they can. I've done it. The sellers will stop coming for more gankage and the market in Jita will dry up. Markets in other regions will get a boost but there will be little competition and the prices will no doubt skyrocket. Again. Players will be forced to waste precious time to find a decent price on one of 20+ regional markets and will be unable to buy complete fittings for their ships in one place. Is this what everyone want? Play EvE in searching for a price that will not clean up your wallet but leave your ship with only half fittings or come to a trade hub and buy complete fittings and insurance and still have some leftover while flying into the horizon towards your next battle....
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:07:00 - [137] Originally by: Mextor Originally by: Ki An True, alone a freighter cannot tank 15 domis. Tell me a ship that can (and can enter high sec) and I'll tell you about an upcoming nerf. i would also like to point out to you that a freighter is a capital ship, it is just an non combatant capital ship. so you have to class dreads and carriers in this tanking 15 domi category as well. its just dreads and carriers are not able to go in to high sec because they have the ability to fight back How can you miss my point when you have quoted it? I said that no ship that is able to enter high sec would be able to withstand such an onslaught. So, no I did not count carriers and dreads. Was there a point to this reply, or did you just want to demonstrate further your inability to partake in discussion? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:12:00 - [138] Originally by: Dolika The corporation i am affiliated with has NO stake in any of the 0.0 systems in EvE so it was not an attack on a hostile corporation's freighter alt. You are in an NPC corp, so your corp has no affiliations with ANY PC corp. If you are talking about your main's corp, I can only say that if you had kept your freighter pilot in that same corp and had them escort you, you would still have your freighter. Originally by: Dolika Why they chose to gank my freighter? I guess you can ask the D2. I remember seeing Wotankn on the killmail... I would guess because you made it into an easy target. Originally by: Dolika Hudreds of freighters come to trade hubs on a daily basis. They bring in massive amounts of everything and Jita for example is the place to go to buy basically anything at really low price. The low price exists for the sole reason the competition is extremely fierce. In 24 hours i get outbid by 10+ people on every item i sell. This means that the fierce competition is keeping the prices down dispite the massive demand. Fact that not everyone can produce in the Jita 4-4 station also remains. This means everything traded there must be hauled from systems near and far. In these paragraphs you make freighter ganking into a Jita nerf, which I believe would be appreciated by most. Originally by: Dolika If the freighter gankage continues, and it most certainly will, because the punishment for doing the deed is a minor security hit and about 0 isk because BS's can be built for about 20M isk less than the insurance payout. Yes they can. I've done it. The punishment for freighter ganking is total loss for no gain if the freighter pilot knows what he's doing. You obviously don't, so I would wait to buy a new freighter if I were you. Originally by: Dolika The sellers will stop coming for more gankage and the market in Jita will dry up. Markets in other regions will get a boost but there will be little competition and the prices will no doubt skyrocket. Again. Players will be forced to waste precious time to find a decent price on one of 20+ regional markets and will be unable to buy complete fittings for their ships in one place. No, that won't happen, because most people will adapt. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Roemy Schneider Swingline LLC	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:32:00 - [139] what about the web-kickstart? in this case, they shot immediately - unless they had a cargo scanning scout along that particular (and popular) route, it was quite a gamble. so, if cargo scanning is added to this time frame, kickstarting a freighter with web (maybe huginn for range bonus) is viable "counter"
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:32:00 - [140] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mextor Originally by: Ki An True, alone a freighter cannot tank 15 domis. Tell me a ship that can (and can enter high sec) and I'll tell you about an upcoming nerf. i would also like to point out to you that a freighter is a capital ship, it is just an non combatant capital ship. so you have to class dreads and carriers in this tanking 15 domi category as well. its just dreads and carriers are not able to go in to high sec because they have the ability to fight back How can you miss my point when you have quoted it? I said that no ship that is able to enter high sec would be able to withstand such an onslaught. So, no I did not count carriers and dreads. Was there a point to this reply, or did you just want to demonstrate further your inability to partake in discussion? /Ki no i do understand the point you are trying to make but, you have missed my point as well a freighter is a capital ship there for it has to be put in the same category as a dread or carrier, if you are going to ask what ship can tank 15 domi's from any class you have to put all the ships from that class in to the mix or all your saying is, which other haulers can tank 15 domi's. the answer to your question is none, there is no ship that can tank that amount of damage that can go into high sec, but every other ship that can go in to high sec can fit is its own tank and also mod that make it warp faster, travel faster, warp while being warp scrambled. they can also fit weapons baring the big hauling Transporters like the Bustard. so my idea for freighters to be able to fit tanks is not that bad an idea by answering your own question, it would just make everything that can go in to high sec more equal.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 14:40:00 - [141] Edited by: Ki An on 05/05/2007 14:36:04 Originally by: Mextor no i do understand the point you are trying to make but, you have missed my point as well a freighter is a capital ship there for it has to be put in the same category as a dread or carrier, if you are going to ask what ship can tank 15 domi's from any class you have to put all the ships from that class in to the mix or all your saying is, which other haulers can tank 15 domi's. But I was not dividing ships by "cathegory" but by their ability to enter high sec or not. Originally by: Mextor the answer to your question is none, there is no ship that can tank that amount of damage that can go into high sec, but every other ship that can go in to high sec can fit is its own tank and also mod that make it warp faster, travel faster, warp while being warp scrambled. they can also fit weapons baring the big hauling Transporters like the Bustard. Yes, every ship except freighters who exchange their slots for massive cargo room and insane hitpoints. Originally by: Mextor so my idea for freighters to be able to fit tanks is not that bad an idea by answering your own question, it would just make everything that can go in to high sec more equal. It's not a bad idea for anything I've told you, no, but it's a bad idea all the same. All this is in this thread already, but I'll reiterate it for you. Freighters right now are balanced. They are vulnerable, but not vulnerable enough that a small gang can't get them through high sec safely. Giving freighters slots of any kind would make them too good, but giving them low slots would make them invulnerable. Imagine a freighter with a DCU. We're talking a quarter million effective hps. Use the mechanics that are in game already to keep your freighters safe. Two escorts will dissuade ANY suicide gank with any brains, and if they STILL pop the freighter, you can at least make sure they won't get ANY of the loot... ... as long as you keep the freighter in your corp. I see this patch as a nerf to invulnerable NPC corp freighters. For too long they have had a free reign in high sec. Now we won't see as many NPC corp alts flying freighters to keep them out of harms way. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:06:00 - [142] That's exactly the same kind of reasoning the Privateers used to spam. You know how the Privateers were treated, and the Freighter suicide gankers will get the same kind of love from CCP. I personally prefer the no-insurance-payout-for-concorded-ships solution. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:09:00 - [143] Originally by: Juwi Kotch That's exactly the same kind of reasoning the Privateers used to spam. You know how the Privateers were treated, and the Freighter suicide gankers will get the same kind of love from CCP. I personally prefer the no-insurance-payout-for-concorded-ships solution. Juwi Kotch You do know that it's freighter pilots that have been hit by the nerfbat, right? The Privateer analogy is a good one, but it works the oposite way of how you think it does. Privateers got nerfed because CCP didn't intend for wars to be the way they where, apparently. Now NPC corp freighters have been nerfed, because CCP never intended freighters to be safe solo in high sec. That's my theory at least. And CCP aren't stupid, so they understand that all this whining is just a couple of spoiled solo players and alliance alts crying that their complete safety has been compromised. No nerf will come. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:16:00 - [144] Originally by: Ki An And CCP aren't stupid, so they understand that all this whining is just a couple of spoiled solo players and alliance alts crying that their complete safety has been compromised. No nerf will come. /Ki That could have been copied and pasted from a Privateers thread... Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:19:00 - [145] Originally by: Juwi Kotch That could have been copied and pasted from a Privateers thread... Juwi Kotch Your point being? Did you even understand my post? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:29:00 - [146] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Juwi Kotch That could have been copied and pasted from a Privateers thread... Juwi Kotch Your point being? Did you even understand my post? /Ki Sure. You're trying to justify the eligibility of Freighter suicide ganking, just like the Privateers tried to justifiy the eligibility of turning high sec to no sec. I have no problems with Freighter killing at all. Use war decs for it, they are meant for it. Do it in low sec or no sec, those areas are meant for that. Suicide ganking again is an abuse of a game mechanic weakness, utilizing delayed Concord response, and killing 1-billion-ISK ships with no or negligable financial loss on the attackers side, and probably profiting from multi-billion-ISK loot. Sure that organized pirates (just like the Privateers) like that. Sure that this is not meant by the Freighter nerf, allowing them now to drop loot. But I understand as well, that pirates are deaf on that ear and blind on that eye. They will abuse this game mechanic as often as possible, and with increasing frequency, until it will be changed by CCP. Just don't whine again later, when the change will negatively affect other pirate tactics as well! Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:37:00 - [147] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Sure. You're trying to justify the eligibility of Freighter suicide ganking, just like the Privateers tried to justifiy the eligibility of turning high sec to no sec. No, I am not. You didn't understand my post at all. I am saying that the Privateers where nerfed, justifiably or not (not the point), and now so have freighter pilots been. The solo NPC corp freighter pilot is no longer a viable alternative if you want to keep the freighter alive. That is the outcome of this patch, and I would bet that it was 100% intended. Freighters have been nerfed, just like the Privateers. Deal with it. Originally by: Juwi Kotch I have no problems with Freighter killing at all. Use war decs for it, they are meant for it. Do it in low sec or no sec, those areas are meant for that. Do you even know what you are talking about? 95% of all freighters are in NPC corps, because up until now that has been completely safe for them. Now it's safer to be in a PC corp. NOW wars will be a viable alternative to kill freighters in high sec. In low sec or no sec there isn't a problem, and there aren't any suicide ganks. Originally by: Juwi Kotch Suicide ganking again is an abuse of a game mechanic weakness, utilizing delayed Concord response, and killing 1-billion-ISK ships with no or negligable financial loss on the attackers side, and probably profiting from multi-billion-ISK loot. No it is not an abuse of game mechanics, as CCP have said they have no problem with suicide ganks. They've been around since forever. Also, the loss is not negligable if the gankers get no loot, which is what I am trying to tell people. You can make sure the gankers won't get ANY loot from the gank, if you ONLY keep the freighter in a PC corp and have TWO escorts with you. Originally by: Juwi Kotch Sure that organized pirates (just like the Privateers) like that. Sure that this is not meant by the Freighter nerf, allowing them now to drop loot. But I understand as well, that pirates are deaf on that ear and blind on that eye. They will abuse this game mechanic as often as possible, and with increasing frequency, until it will be changed by CCP. Just don't whine again later, when the change will negatively affect other pirate tactics as well! It is not an abuse. CCP has said it's not. It's been petitioned a thousand times, and it's not an abuse of game mechanics! Gawds... /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Kusanagi2501	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:04:00 - [148] The best solution here is the ôNo insurance payout if killed by Concordö. ItÆs just realistic and should have been added a long time ago. But NO, NO, NO, escorting in high-sec! This is just noob abuse! I canÆt possibly think of a more tediously boring way to spend my afternoon! ItÆs one thing in low sec where there is a constant and real threat, but in high-sec itÆs just boring. Other good ideas IÆve heard: Ditch NPC corps (make players a corp of 1 by default). Add mid slots to freighters. Let them boost up a shield tank, target jammer, something along those lines.
Swirler Caldari Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:15:00 - [149] How is it that whenever something comes along that makes the game fun again, pussles like you want to fix it? Leave it alone. Concord/Cops can not be there all the time, just like real life. Originally by: Juwi Kotch This will go the same way as the Privateers war-dec abuse. People will get gready, and Freighter killing will become a regular event. Risk versus reward is out of balance here, and this will be fixed soon - unless this suicide ganking would be used that rarely, that CCP wouldn't be forced to take action. But, as we all know, greed will prevent this. CCP will introduce something to stop Freighter killing with a minimum of financial loss. The only question is, if the fix will come in one month, in three, or in six. Juwi Kotch
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:16:00 - [150] Originally by: Juwi Kotch What Privateer thread do you use to copy and paste from? Clever. Do you have any new material? Originally by: Juwi Kotch Freighters were not nerfed to make them possible victims of suicide gankings, as you surely know, and that change definitly was not an action comparable to the war dec change as a response to the Privateer's abuse. Read it any way you like. Freighters where nerfed to reduce their invulnerability in high sec. That the vulnerability would come from suicide ganks is obvious. I mean, if whomever is behind the Jenny Spitfire character now could figure it out, of course CCP could. Things have now changed for freighters, and now everyone piloting them will need to adapt. Originally by: Juwi Kotch If Freighter suicide ganking would remain to be a rare occurance, I would not object at all. But we will see, that this will be a frequent thing to happen, because its cheap, easy and fun for all griefers. Gankers will kill Freighters just for the fun of it, not bothering to loot at all. For using the word 'griefers' I should actually stop bothering to respond to you, as you obviously have no idea what game you are playing (hint: it's not WoW), but as I think this is important, I will restrain my urge to flame you senseless. So, in response to the above quote, I'd ask: Why didn't they before the patch? It was just as cheap, easy and fun then. The only differance is that now they drop loot. Originally by: Juwi Kotch The pirate community will become greedy and you again will see pirates grouping together only for the thrill to experience a Freighter blowing up (again). Yes, as long as freighter pilots refuse to adapt, this is a clear possibility. Originally by: Juwi Kotch If this possibility would be used selectivly, those pirates would probably even not be bothered at all by CCP. But they won't. In the end Freighters will not be able to perform their intended task in high sec. Then CCP will change game mechanics, that this will be allowed again. The pirates then will have to live with some unwanted side-effects of that change. Here I believe you are wrong, as I believe this whole thing is intended. (Again, if Jenny could figure it out, anyone could.) CCP knows as well as me and you that being ganked or not is completetely up to the freighter pilot. He or she has all the power to prevent the suicide gank, as has been explained multiple times in this thread. Just because he or she refuses to chose not to be ganked doesn't mean there is anything wrong with game mechancis. I'd say that game mechanics now work exactly as they should in this field. Now there's true risk vs reward for both parties. Teamwork is rewarded and lazyness punished. Originally by: Juwi Kotch Btw, I fly my Freighter not out of a NPC corporation, and even pilot it to 0.0 through low sec. Of course escorted and scouted. Good for you. You can probably count on staying alive then. Now, if just everyone else would do the same there wouldn't be a problem at all. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:20:00 - [151] Originally by: Kusanagi2501 But NO, NO, NO, escorting in high-sec! It's up to you if you want to be escorted or not. You'll probably get killed sooner or later if you don't, but the choice is yours. And... which noobs can fly freighters? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
LittleTerror Caldari kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:21:00 - [152] Its real simple, scouts to check other side of gates befor frieghter jumps in, also an escort of battleships all fitted with as many remote repairs as possible, my god people are just so stupid and whiney little *****es
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:22:00 - [153] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 05/05/2007 16:19:41 It's really not that hard to not stick your high value/low volume items into Freighters and use them exclusively for their purpose - hauling high volumes of goods. So even if you do die with your 1-man escort/scout/webber (probably just your alt), nobody makes a profit and you don't lose terribly much either. They're just not super-secure containers the way they've been used lately. They're vessels for hauling huge amounts of stuff either without compressing it or while being unable to (finished goods and all that). And if on some rare occasion you have a Freighter full of actual high value items, you can probably be bothered to escort it. That's far from the norm though, most people have their billions tied up in less than 4000m3 worth of stuff, which simply shouldn't go into a Freighter.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:25:00 - [154] Originally by: Ki An Lotsa talk... Let me give you some facts. Facts: Investments: (low prices, similar to selfbuilt) Investment needed for 15 gank domis: 750mil (at 50 mil each) Investment for freighter: 850 mil Disbalance: minimum 100 mil (if freighter was empty - if it was not, all cargo adds to disbalance - and as is in the nature of freighters, they may have a lot of cargo) Chances of winning battle: Gankfleet: 99% (They can loose if they were foolish enough not to test on SiSi before going ahead) Freighter: 1% (If the attackers were extremely foolish as said above) Disbalance: 99% in favour of attackers Validity of scouts: Low. Problem a) Scouting for a freighter run in high-sec = -10 on the fun scale. Playing a game should be fun though. Problem b) Hired noob scouts can and should not be trusted when moving valuable cargo. Problem c) If the attackers are wise, the might have a hauler sitting at the gank gate, with the ganksquad in a safe alligned for warp-in when a freighter with valuable cargo comes along. The scout will see a safe gate and will not warn the freighter pilot. Solution to all of the above - as many have said: No insurance for ships destroyed by concord. This won't stop the high sec ganks completely, but it will even the field a lil.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:28:00 - [155] Well, I think we should give it a rest here. Basically you are just repeating the justification lines and tactics introduced by the Privateers, and I don't see why pilots should be left without any protection at all against a game mechanics abuse, besides teaming up. Give it a bit time, and we will see who is right. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:34:00 - [156] Originally by: Soulita Let me give you some facts. Facts: Investments: (low prices, similar to selfbuilt) Investment needed for 15 gank domis: 750mil (at 50 mil each) Investment for freighter: 850 mil Disbalance: minimum 100 mil (if freighter was empty - if it was not, all cargo adds to disbalance - and as is in the nature of freighters, they may have a lot of cargo) Add two combat fitted escorts to the freighters side please. Originally by: Soulita Chances of winning battle: Gankfleet: 99% (They can loose if they were foolish enough not to test on SiSi before going ahead) Freighter: 1% (If the attackers were extremely foolish as said above) Disbalance: 99% in favour of attackers If above mentioned combat fitted escorts are present, there will never be a combat if the gankfleet has any brains, and if they don't, both sides will lose. Originally by: Soulita Validity of scouts: Low. Problem a) Scouting for a freighter run in high-sec = -10 on the fun scale. Playing a game should be fun though. Tough **. Lots of things are boring in this game. I hate mission running for isk to support my PvP, but I have to. I hate mining, but if I want to build my own stuff, I have to. You may hate to scout, but if you want your freighter to reach safety, you have to. Originally by:** Soulita Problem b) Hired noob scouts can and should not be trusted when moving valuable cargo. Don't hire noob scout ffs! You need experienced scouts. I am sure your corp can supply you with some, and if not, I can escort you for a moderate sum. (Hint for up-and-coming entrepreneurs: Start a freighter escort firm.) Originally by: Soulita Problem c) If the attackers are wise, the might have a hauler sitting at the gank gate, with the ganksquad in a safe alligned for warp-in when a freighter with valuable cargo comes along. The scout will see a safe gate and will not warn the freighter pilot. If the attackers are wise and you have brought your two ship escort, they won't attack you. Originally by: Soulita Solution to all of the above - as many have said: No insurance for ships destroyed by concord. And if that was implemented, as many (mostly me in this thread though ), all insurance should be removed, with the possible exceptance of well escorted haulers in high sec. Originally by: Soulita This won't stop the high sec ganks completely, but it will even the field a lil. The field is already even. Just because you chose to not field a goalie doesn't mean the rules should change. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:36:00 - [157] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Well, I think we should give it a rest here. Basically you are just repeating the justification lines and tactics introduced by the Privateers, and I don't see why pilots should be left without any protection at all against a game mechanics abuse, besides teaming up. Give it a bit time, and we will see who is right. Juwi Kotch We sure will, and for the record, you are the one whining about a nerf, just as the Privateers where when they got hit. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:39:00 - [158] Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter Care to elaborate? Please be specific.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:39:00 - [159] Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes? Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:44:00 - [160] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter Care to elaborate? Please be specific. Didn't you read the thread? I'll go over it again: You keep two combat fitted escorts with you when moving a freighter through high sec. Their official job starts when the freighter is popped. They then guard the wreck so that noone can loot it, until haulers can be mobilized to pick up what survived. The unofficial, but more efficient job the escorts have is to dissuade any suicide gank on the freighter at all. After all, the suicide gankers know the flagging rules of high sec just as well as the freighter pilot, and they will know that there will be two tough opponents to take on for any ship seeking to loot the wreck. This rules out brining a freighter of their own, as it would be popped. They also know that the two escorts can pick and chose which thieves to agress, as they can shoot the thieves, but the thieves can't shoot back untill being shot. This is very simple stuff, and it is the one true solution to this 'problem' that is already in game. The only problem with it is that it doesn't work if the freighter is in an NPC corp, but that is the pilot's problem, and not CCP's or the rest of ours. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:46:00 - [161] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes? Juwi Kotch Uhm.... in every post you made? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:50:00 - [162] It looks like you read what you want to read, not what is written. I don't complain, and never have complained, about the Freighter changes, I complain about the game mechanic abuse resulting in cheap and easy suicide ganking of Freighters. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Mozetta	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:51:00 - [163] Edited by: Mozetta on 05/05/2007 16:47:38 Originally by: Juwi Kotch It looks like you read what you want to read, not what is written. I don't complain, and never have complained, about the Freighter changes, I complain about the game mechanic abuse resulting in cheap and easy suicide ganking of Freighters. Juwi Kotch Hoookay.... /Ki /Edit: This is Ki An #ñ&%/#ñ forums chose my secret alt again.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:52:00 - [164] Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 16:52:18 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter Care to elaborate? Please be specific. Didn't you read the thread? I'll go over it again: You keep two combat fitted escorts with you when moving a freighter through high sec. Their official job starts when the freighter is popped. They then guard the wreck so that noone can loot it, until haulers can be mobilized to pick up what survived. The unofficial, but more efficient job the escorts have is to dissuade any suicide gank on the freighter at all. After all, the suicide gankers know the flagging rules of high sec just as well as the freighter pilot, and they will know that there will be two tough opponents to take on for any ship seeking to loot the wreck. This rules out brining a freighter of their own, as it would be popped. They also know that the two escorts can pick and chose which thieves to agress, as they can shoot the thieves, but the thieves can't shoot back untill being shot. This is very simple stuff, and it is the one true solution to this 'problem' that is already in game. The only problem with it is that it doesn't work if the freighter is in an NPC corp, but that is the pilot's problem, and not CCP's or the rest of ours. /Ki What if the two armed escorts guarding the stuff after the freighter died get attacked by 15 backup kestrels of the former gank squad? The only argument you had against the points I gave you to think about was these 2 backup combat escorts would save the day. By the way, I have seen freighters with escorts getting popped - now what? Whichever way you put it, there is a problem. The solution is easy enough, and I see no valid argument against it. Maybe you will reply to this post and maybe not. Tbh I dont give a ****.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Soulita What if the two armed escorts guarding the stuff after the freighter died get attacked by 15 backup kestrels of the former gank squad? That would result in a pile of Caldari Frigate wrecks, as Concord would be at the scene setting up cordons and telling people to mind their own business. Originally by: Soulita The only argument you had against the points I gave you to think about was these 2 backup combat escorts would save the day. Not that that argument isn't good enough, but if you care to read my other posts in this thread you will find more. I cba to repeat myself every page. Originally by: Soulita By the way, I have seen freighters with escorts getting popped - now what?[/quote Where? When? How many gankers? Did the gankers get the loot? Care to answer these questions, or should we take your word for it? Originally by: Soulita Whichever way you put it, there is a problem.[/quote No. Originally by: Soulita The solution is easy enough, and I see no valid argument against it.[/quote There are lots, but you'll have to read the friggin thread. Originally by: Soulita Maybe you will reply to this post and maybe not. Tbh I dont give a **.[/quote Here's my reply. Start not giving a . Originally by:** Soulita Whatever people say you will make up something to counter it - be it true or not.[/quote Yes, I am a bonafied liar, and nothing I say is true. I found a picture of you. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:01:00 - [166] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Juwi Kotch Hmmm... where did I ever complain about the Freighter changes? Juwi Kotch Uhm.... in every post you made? /Ki You know I'm totally with you, but you and the whiners are gonna go over the same facts for the next 15 pages... I doubt there are more ways you can show your points, and I'd be as frustrated if someone goes again and again ignoring your stated facts and says "mimimi but I want it anyway". Save your energy and do something useful with it, you cant educate carebears and whiners, its a small %tage in EVE, and hopefully CCP doesnt give in on another carebear whine.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:02:00 - [167] Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:00:48 Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 16:59:06 Originally by: Ki An Yes, I am a bonafied liar, and nothing I say is true. Nice quoteable line. Good you said it yourself. If you had told me that before, I would not have bothered arguing with you, as it is pointless.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:04:00 - [168] Originally by: Chewan Mesa You know I'm totally with you, but you and the whiners are gonna go over the same facts for the next 15 pages... I doubt there are more ways you can show your points, and I'd be as frustrated if someone goes again and again ignoring your stated facts and says "mimimi but I want it anyway". Save your energy and do something useful with it, you cant educate carebears and whiners, its a small %tage in EVE, and hopefully CCP doesnt give in on another carebear whine. Yeah, but I'm at work and have nothing better to do... looks around for boss But, yeah, I hear ya. It's just that I get so fired up by threads such as this, and I can't contain my urge to squeeze the wee bears until they go squish with angst and anger /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:07:00 - [169]
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:08:00 - [170] Yes they must of used their drones and Concord could not kill that many drones in fact they would kill the domi's 1st.
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:09:00 - [171] ki has it right on. oh and adapt
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:12:00 - [172] Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:10:17 Originally by: vile56 ki has it right on. oh and adapt ROFL He is a whiner of the worst case. No insurance payout when getting killed by concord? Buhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu it cant beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (It is called preemptive whining )
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:15:00 - [173] Originally by: Tiberyya Za Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor. A freighter has how many high-slots? None is the answer is it not? Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded.
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:27:00 - [174] Originally by: Ki An 3. Those of you saying "Oh well, CCP will nerf this as they did to the Privateers", I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. CCP knew what they where doing when they introduced loot dropping freighters. The era of safe NPC freighters is over. The new era takes a modicum of coordination. Ha, ha, ha. I've been playing, main and alt, for six months. In that time I've learned quite well just how little CCP thinks through anything... It's a high-tech feudal society more along the lines of Somalia or some other war-torn tribal-government african nation than anything else.
Kion Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:33:00 - [175] Edited by: Kion on 05/05/2007 17:33:44 Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded. I Agree CCP messed up or thay simply can't implament a change to the insurance payouts to ganker! Don't think CCP plan everything that happens in Eve and even when they do plan there is a ton of stuff they can't be arsed with. The origenal poster is right it will change the prices of T2 and this will make invention more viable. Do you think CCP planed this I don't think so.
Princess Voodoo FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:39:00 - [176] > Ok jumping into Jita to scout the freighter. >>OH NOES TONES OF SHIPS ON TEH GATE >>>What do we do? They are here, but ..but...IM CONFUSED! I KILLED SOMEONE - HERE IS A PICTURES OF IT [ ]
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:42:00 - [177] Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron Originally by: Tiberyya Za Quote: Guess we're back to killrights as a commodity then as there seems to be no way to counter this suicide gank. The damage comes from drones. Kill the drones (smartbomb) or disrupt the drones (ECM burst). Concord will eventually deal with the aggressor. A freighter has how many high-slots? None is the answer is it not? Personally, I see this as another CCP messed up by not thinking things through problem created to solve another CCP not thinking things through problem. Plus some serious back-tarded logic. A billion isk ship with no means to defend itself or harden itself? That's just plain retarded. Not to mention if you did either of those in hi sec you would get concorded. Concord no likes smart bombs or ecm bursts.....considered a criminal act. The arguments here about how to use scouts, guards etc really won't help the freighter to much. Most people wouldn't be willing to scout or guard long enough for a freighter to make a journey of 20 or more jumps. Freighters are the slowest warpers in the game. The freighter can't last 38 seconds against 15 Domis, that means pretty much any defenders are going to be useless. They'll still just target the freighter even if it has guards. They'll then have their alt corp buddies either in NPC corps or rarely another player corp warp in their transports/industrials/freighter and loot. The guards will be stuck with no targets, no freighter and no way to stop the looters without actually dying themselves. It would take approximately a dozen logistics cruisers to keep it alive under that onslaught long enough for Concord to possibly arrive before the freighter was destroyed. Not many logistics pilots gonna be willing to babysit freighters. If the problem persists long enough and enough folks begin quitting due to it, then CCP will of course act. I can only see four actions they could take: 1. Make empire safe. Only can attack targets that you have a war with. No one really wants this one, would lead to even further loss of subscriptions and thus not really a viable option for EVE. 2. Remove insurance payouts for ships involved in criminal behavior. This would still allow one to gank a military target even if it was unmarked. It just means that there is a risk vs reward. That you are gonna have to work for the high reward, since you'll have to ensure the target is worth a suicide attack. For as long as I've been part of EVE there have been calls for this and it makes sense. 3. Freighter HP Boost. Okay what's the problem here. Well the problem is if you give it a hp boost your not just affecting the gankers, you are affecting anyone trying to fight a legitimate war. Thus this is not really a good solution. 4. Redo the freighter. Give it some high slots, medium slots, and low slots. This would allow for some nominal protection/tank, enough hopefully that it can survive long enough for allies to help it or for concord to respond to criminal behavior. It wouldn't even need much maybe 3 to 4 high slots, 3 to 4 medium slots and 3 to 4 low slots. Just enough to add a couple resist plates, maybe a stabber or two, etc. This is somewhat feasible, but most likely wouldn't solve ganking unless you gave it such a boost that you also affected real wars, something we'd like to avoid doing. So therefore out of the 4 scenarios possible, the only one I think is really viable to eve as a whole is to just remove insurance payout for criminal behavior. Now it might take CCP months to actually make any changes, Privateers operated for many months, they kept pushing the envelope, until finally CCP decided they had to do something. If all we see is a freighter or two a week ganked, it might take months to see any change. However if it goes up sharply and we started seeing half dozen or more on a weekly basis, then I do believe CCP will act. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Elad Dranoel	Posted - 2007.05.05 17:46:00 - [178] Just boost the freighter armor/strcture hitpoints to fall in line with revelations patch.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:00:00 - [179] Originally by: Ryas Nia have you thought of joining a corp or alliance that could offer a protecting fleet? MMORPG != solo the key point is exactly in the woerd you used: FLEET not 1-2 ships, you need a whole fleet. A that point you can simply use a fleet of industrial, and risk way less. The idea of the freighter is to move large quantity of bulk items with efficency. I you need the same number of ship you will use to move the material with multiple smaller ships the ship class lose any meaning.
vile56 Nubs. D-L	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:02:00 - [180] Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 05/05/2007 17:15:49 Originally by: vile56 ki has it right on. oh and adapt ROFL He is a whiner of the worst case. No insurance payout when getting killed by concord? Buhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu it cant beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (It is called preemptive whining and requires whining at lvl5 and advanced whining at lvl3) removeing ins payout when killed by concord is not the solution. Why because there are ways to stop getting ganked. if there was NO way to stop ganking in highsec then yes that would be a viable option. i have never got suicided in a freighter in highsec (i can play stick man too).
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:16:00 - [181] Edited by: Ki An on 05/05/2007 18:13:05 I have found this thread amusing, if only for the sort of mental block some people take to this issue. Here's an artist's impression of it: Carebear > Freighters are unbalanced. Forumer > Please explain why. Carebear > They can be suicide ganked and you can't do anything about it. Forumer > Sure you can. You can do X, Y and Z, but only in a PC corp. Carebear > X, Y and Z isn't enough. CCP should change the game mechanics. Forumer > There's no need to change game mechanics, just adapt to the changes. Carebear > I don't want to do that because that is boring. The game is broken. Forumer > Just because you can't be assed to protect yourself doesn't mean the game is broken. Carebear > Freighters are unbalanced. Round and round it goes, and it never ever stops. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:38:00 - [182] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:38:49 The effect is clear, and has been seen in Eve before. Becuase of the game mechanics, industry won't spread one inch out. T2 market prices will rise, production fall as T2 is provided to non-public groups only. T1 market prices will rise, production fall as less people do it. Saying "oh 2 escorts can stop loot wreck" is meaningless. You've allready lost several billion at that point. And shooting the wreck for further losses, given the ships are concord-flagged, is no real trouble. And 5 escorts MIGHT be able to save the freighter. MIGHT. //Maya
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:40:00 - [183] round and round it goes, there is one thing for sure you are right on that. but one thing i have to say and its not necessarily in response to this thread directly but it does cover all threads like this one, the main thing is, you will always get a few ppl that look at what effects them, not that that effects the whole server. and this is why threads like this go through so many pages of utter sh*t, cos of small mainded ppl that dont want to look at the bigger picture, think of this what you will i don't care but it is making for some good ideas on who to war dec next
TerryTigre Dragonquestor	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:41:00 - [184] Well, i think the basic problem here is the fact that near exploits are used to do it. 1) Concord doesnt handle drones very well, as opposted to say guns or turrets. 2) The ships cost less to build than the insurance earned. It would be better for the game if it would be as hard to do in 15 domis as in 15 ravens, and the insurance based it price around how much the ship cost to build. Even better would be no insurance at all for people killed by concord, but i wouldnt hold my breath for that, as it would mean that people just new to the game losing their ship to concord wouldnt get paid either. As for the one scout and 2 escorts making it safe argument, thats not true at all. As has been pointed out, a scout at the gate cant see the dominis if they arent there at that time. Besides, as the original poster pointed out, he was visiting jita, and many ships are there anyway. Lastly, if this remains as easy as it is now (38 seconds), expect more groups of 15 dominis to appear. You cant plot alternate routes with the scout if there arent any alternate routes. Second, the two escorts. Lets see, the escorts have less hits than the freighter right? So either waste them along with the freighter, or bring 17 dominis. Unless the escorts are strong enough to withstand that, you might as well forget about them. As for guarding the wreckage, that just doesnt make sense. If dominis with drones can take out a freighter in 38 seconds, how long are 2 escorts going to survive for the time it takes to get a backup freighter or industrials there? Lets see they need to survive for at least 10 minutes, if another freighter/stack of industrials is only a few jumps away and responds instanly. Not going to happen. Escorts are basically totally useless in this scenario. Unless they somehow can win the fight, and then the pirates would be using those ships to attack the freighter, not dominis. Now, someone mentioned webbing a freighter to make it jump faster. This might work. Unless that tactic is also countered off course. Ironically, the very speed by which this topic gathers pages(a couple of pages where added since i started reading) insures that many pirates are going to read it, and try to implement it, before it gets nerfed. They only need to read things like build for less money than it is insured and 38 seconds and several billion isk profit to make that a certainty. So it may indeed be the end of the freighter class. It may be wiser to just give up on those and only use industrials, as they are smaller targets.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:42:00 - [185] Originally by: Mextor round and round it goes, there is one thing for sure you are right on that. but one thing i have to say and its not necessarily in response to this thread directly but it does cover all threads like this one, the main thing is, you will always get a few ppl that look at what effects them, not that that effects the whole server. and this is why threads like this go through so many pages of utter sh*t, cos of small mainded ppl that dont want to look at the bigger picture, think of this what you will i don't care but it is making for some good ideas on who to war dec next Agreed! /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:47:00 - [186] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni Just a thought, but has anyone actually looked in the development board recently. When those changes come on to TQ, which they will, any lowsec corp worth it's salt will have instant pos to pos transport available making freighter runs in lowsec/nosec totally 100% safe. Yet in highsec where it's suppoosed to be safer, we have frieghter gankage. You tell me that the scales balance. The scales balance. Need I explain why? Ok, then. The scales balance because if the freighters took the same precautions in high sec that they do in low, they wouldn't be ganked. Ever. If they take half the precautions in high sec that they do in low, they wouldn't be ganked. Ever. It is safer in highsec. All you need is two escorts. /Ki Not so fast. A simple log-in trap on would take care of many of your suggestions. Or a spotter in a two-gate system giving the gankers a heads-up.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:48:00 - [187] Originally by: TerryTigre Dragonquestor Second, the two escorts. Lets see, the escorts have less hits than the freighter right? So either waste them along with the freighter, or bring 17 dominis. Unless the escorts are strong enough to withstand that, you might as well forget about them. As for guarding the wreckage, that just doesnt make sense. If dominis with drones can take out a freighter in 38 seconds, how long are 2 escorts going to survive for the time it takes to get a backup freighter or industrials there? Lets see they need to survive for at least 10 minutes, if another freighter/stack of industrials is only a few jumps away and responds instanly. Not going to happen. Escorts are basically totally useless in this scenario. Unless they somehow can win the fight, and then the pirates would be using those ships to attack the freighter, not dominis. I won't reply to the rest of your tripe, as it has been argued and proven faulty before in this thread. The quoted part has as well, but I feel I need to defend this, as people like you keep trying to come up with illogical things with which to counter the argument. Fact is, that after the freighter is attacked, concord will be at the scene, making it virtually impossible to make further suicide ganks until the de-spawn. That alone gives you sufficient time to get support if your two escorts can't handle the thieves, or if a SECOND (Yes, like one isn't improbable enough) wave of suicide domis arrive. Another point that people like you keep missing (disregarding?) is that the escort is enough to dissuade ANY suicide attack as long as the gankers have any brain. It's, after all, a matter of convenience for them, and if they see they will have trouble getting the loot from an escorted freighter, they will instead wait for an unescorted one. I know it's hard to accept that the argument is over and that CCP won't bail you out this time, but I still ask you to just accept it, cut your losses, adapt and get on with your EvE lives. A tiny bit of team work isn't too much for anyone. Try it and you might like it. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:49:00 - [188] Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron Not so fast. A simple log-in trap on would take care of many of your suggestions. Or a spotter in a two-gate system giving the gankers a heads-up. Sigh... no it won't... Please... try to understand... shakes head in disbelief /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:51:00 - [189] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:48:18 If there were ten escorts, sure, not 2. And if you're using 12+ people to move a freighter cargo, you'll need to be charging a substantial premium on goods (like 50%+). Peoples time isn't free. "I still ask you to just accept it, cut your losses, adapt and get on with your EvE lives" No, it's: "accept it, cut your loses and quit eve". Because a lot of the traders will. CCP have decimated their ranks again and again, then wonder why the market won't spread. GAH! //Maya
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:55:00 - [190] Edited by: Ki An on 05/05/2007 18:51:10 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:48:18 If there were ten escorts, sure, not 2. And if you're using 12+ people to move a freighter cargo, you'll need to be charging a substantial premium on goods (like 50%+). Peoples time isn't free. No, two will suffice. Look back a page, or two pages, or four, and you will see me explaining why to every other poster just like you who popped into the discussion with arguments which have been countered 5 pages ago, just like you. Originally by: Maya Rkell "I still ask you to just accept it, cut your losses, adapt and get on with your EvE lives" No, it's: "accept it, cut your loses and quit eve". Because a lot of the traders will. CCP have decimated their ranks again and again, then wonder why the market won't spread. GAH! Good riddance in that case. If they can't adapt to a small change like this, what will happen when something major happens? What if they had been in the Privateers when their nerf hit? Oh, yeah right... These people are carebears... /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:57:00 - [191] Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Except that whinebears like yourself want to increase those losses to suit your agenda. If the costs of ganking in highsec become prohibitively expensive, it is the same thing as having a big "YOU MAY NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER" flashing over your ship. Highsec ganking should occur, it should occur often, it should hamper commercial shipping, and one should be able to make a profit from it if he picks the right target and has good intel. Removing insurance would remove the profit. Spend 1.5 bil to loot 1 bil is not a profit. Spend .5 bil to loot 1 bil is a profit. Piracy = PVP for profit. Carebears want all highsec piracy to result in loss, so that it does not occur.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:00:00 - [192] Originally by: Del Narveux Domis because -Theyre cheap, a full suicide fitting means you only lose like 15mil isk if fully insured -Drones keep shooting even after concord shows up and jams and all that -Domis do massive damage without high skill requirements The oft quoted '475' dps is the absolute maximum with BS V, Drone interfacing V, Gallente Drone specialisation V, heavy drone operation V...you get the point Oh and, splendid... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:01:00 - [193] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. "If they can't adapt to a small change" What small change? It's another MAJOR change. Just because the implimentation is minor dosn't mean it does not have a far-reaching effect. And if you ever buy anything off the player market in Empire EVER, your contempt for carebears is hypocritical. Not that that's likely to stop you pushing your agenda over the greater good of Eve, of course. Selfish, purely. Smacking the market AGAIN is going to do even more damage to it, make being in an alliance more the only way to get anything for a deacent price ever, pump up the inflation which CCP has managed to cause... Cipher7, no, it's "people who want to see a reasonable market" who are against your claim of a right to gank anything anywhere and make a profit. And please try calling me a carebear. Go RIGHT ahead. //Maya
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:09:00 - [194] What I don't get yet is why people think folks flying in highsec should need to take the same/similar precautions when flying around as those in lowsec/no-sec, no matter what they are flying. Isn't that kinda defeating the whole point of highsec? This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:10:00 - [195] Edited by: Ki An on 05/05/2007 19:06:06 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Again I would ask you to READ MY FRIGGIN POSTS! I REFUSE to repeat myself again just because you're too lazy to read. Originally by: Maya Rkell "If they can't adapt to a small change" What small change? It's another MAJOR change. Just because the implimentation is minor dosn't mean it does not have a far-reaching effect. And if you ever buy anything off the player market in Empire EVER, your contempt for carebears is hypocritical. It's a minor change, as it just takes minor adaptations to overcome it. I have justified contempt for carebears. I love industrialists, in fact I am one too. I just hate "We want everything the easy way"-carebears. Originally by: Maya Rkell Not that that's likely to stop you pushing your agenda over the greater good of Eve, of course. Selfish, purely. Smacking the market AGAIN is going to do even more damage to it, make being in an alliance more the only way to get anything for a deacent price ever, pump up the inflation which CCP has managed to cause... This change is for the greater good of EvE. No longer will alliances be able to freely transport goods through Empire in NPC alts, free from threat of wars. No longer will a freighter be all but invulnerable. It's a good change, and it's way overdue. Originally by: Maya Rkell Cipher7, no, it's "people who want to see a reasonable market" who are against your claim of a right to gank anything anywhere and make a profit. And please try calling me a carebear. Go RIGHT ahead. I want to see a reasonable market, as do everyone else in this thread. It's just that some people can't accept the fact that THEY should have to put in any work to ensure their safety. IT'S CCP'S JOB, DAMMIT! Right? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
TerryTigre Dragonquestor	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:14:00 - [196] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: TerryTigre Dragonquestor Second, the two escorts. Lets see, the escorts have less hits than the freighter right? So either waste them along with the freighter, or bring 17 dominis. Unless the escorts are strong enough to withstand that, you might as well forget about them. As for guarding the wreckage, that just doesnt make sense. If dominis with drones can take out a freighter in 38 seconds, how long are 2 escorts going to survive for the time it takes to get a backup freighter or industrials there? Lets see they need to survive for at least 10 minutes, if another freighter/stack of industrials is only a few jumps away and responds instanly. Not going to happen. Escorts are basically totally useless in this scenario. Unless they somehow can win the fight, and then the pirates would be using those ships to attack the freighter, not dominis. I won't reply to the rest of your tripe, as it has been argued and proven faulty before in this thread. The quoted part has as well, but I feel I need to defend this, as people like you keep trying to come up with illogical things with which to counter the argument. Fact is, that after the freighter is attacked, concord will be at the scene, making it virtually impossible to make further suicide ganks until the de-spawn. That alone gives you sufficient time to get support if your two escorts can't handle the thieves, or if a SECOND (Yes, like one isn't improbable enough) wave of suicide domis arrive. Another point that people like you keep missing (disregarding?) is that the escort is enough to dissuade ANY suicide attack as long as the gankers have any brain. It's, after all, a matter of convenience for them, and if they see they will have trouble getting the loot from an escorted freighter, they will instead wait for an unescorted one. I know it's hard to accept that the argument is over and that CCP won't bail you out this time, but I still ask you to just accept it, cut your losses, adapt and get on with your EvE lives. A tiny bit of team work isn't too much for anyone. Try it and you might like it. /Ki Ahem. Which part didnt you get about the two escorts also being killed? And if everybody brings escorts, then attackers must plan to counter those too. Reminds me of sales adds for theft protection items. We dont work, but hopefully the burglar will pick another house because of us. This doesnt stop burglary, but shifts the problem to the next guy. Escorts dont change the basic situation of possible billions of isk profit at low risk (because of the insurance) in 38 seconds. Try to mine that as fast. Then try to compute what is being done with the profits... buy freighters? Hmm no, more dominis would be my bet. So there is some merit in raising the price if that is the only ship type that can do it because of the drones involved, but my guess would be that other ship types could do it too, if possible not as efficiently.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:14:00 - [197] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:11:34 I have Ki An. Your repeated incorrect statements are not getting you any ground. It's a major change, and your agenda of proving is otherwise, likewise no ground from me. Independent freighters (as opposed to alliance ones) would have been ganked on a regular basis before if it was minor. They were not. It has changed killing freighters from a strategic denial tool to a money-making industrument. Major, major change. The change is for your view of your idealised view of Eve, not the greater good - CCP failed to consider the wider implications. Alliances will manage, they allways have done. It's the actual traders who expand markets and sell to the public who will be shut down. Again. "I want to see a reasonable market, as do everyone else in this thread" You are not. You are calling for it to be shut down. Why do you think lying helps? You cannot call for mutually exclusive positions at the same time. Also, I have a job. Eve is a game. Thanks. //Maya
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:15:00 - [198] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:18:00 - [199] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. Thank you, maybe she'll listen to you. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:18:00 - [200] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:16:32 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:15:28 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. And my point is that is utterly meaningless. Again, the loss has allready happened. The wreck is easy to pop, if they have living escorts (unlikely, a mere two BS are likely to die vey quickly as well). Then... two BS manage to pop a freighter before the reserve come in and deal with the pair of escorts? Unlikely (you loot ON THE RUN - they have ~0.1s between looting and leaving, ffs!). You've STILL driven any trade not part of an ideologically commiteted alliance out of Eve anyway. No, Ki An, he hasn't bother reading my post either. Your agenda is clear, and your hatred of the Eve market is frankly amusing. Drive out anything not in the hands of the alliances! Seen it before sooo many times. //Maya
Clorthos Gallente Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:19:00 - [201] Originally by: Marcus Tedric 1) Give freighters slots like any other ship - and adjust the stats so that they only reach current capacity by fitting a full rack of Cargo Expander IIs/Local Hulls - as a bonus - freighters suddenly become even more useful too. signed as long as no capital can fit inside a freighter packaged, I would recommend giving it slots and not allowing rigging or cargo mods to be put on it to keep the tanking balance there between races shield/armor tanks ect. Since the ships are now "frontline" capitals they deserve the boosting in stats and should be allowed to defend themselve via repping since they are now loot targets. where is the risk vs reward? does it come down to blob warfare in empire now too? Putting a hauler in a npc corp may be a exploit but maybe you should be able to wardec individuals that trade with enemies. who knows trading with somone hostile to you transfering kill rights for a certain amount of time.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:20:00 - [202] Oddly enough the only change was that they dropped loot. They were just as targetable before. As such most of the arguements I've seen to say this is what is intended are null and void. If you wanted to gank a frieghter pre-loot dropping, then you could, just as you can now. The only difference is that they have loot now. So to those who are going on tirelessly saying that it's not about the loot are just flat out lying. As for taking an escort, is that really going to help? As far as I'm aware the only person who can attack those who come to loot the wreck is the pilot himself, anyone else would get concordokkened or did that get changed to? This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:23:00 - [203] Originally by: Maya Rkell And my point is that is utterly meaningless. Again, the loss has allready happened. The wreck is easy to pop, if they have living escorts (unlikely, a mere two BS are likely to die vey quickly as well). Then... two BS manage to pop a freighter before the reserve come in and deal with the pair of escorts? Unlikely. You've STILL driven any trade not part of an ideologically commiteted alliance out of Eve anyway. No, Ki An, he hasn't bother reading my post either. Your agenda is clear, and your hatred of the Eve market is frankly amusing. Drive out anything not in the hands of the alliances! Seen it before sooo many times. I'll try to make this very simple for ya: Worst case scenario: -Escorted freighter goes pop. -Concord shows up and deals with the agressors. -Escort guard the wreck of the freighter until backup arrives. -If agressors attempt to gank the escort, Concord is already there and will deal with any attempt before it succeeds (if you don't believe me, try it yourself. I have.). Probable scenario: -Escorted freighter is sighted, but so are escorts. -Attack is withheld as gankers know they can't send in their freighter to scoop the loot. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:24:00 - [204] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni Oddly enough the only change was that they dropped loot. They were just as targetable before. As such most of the arguements I've seen to say this is what is intended are null and void. If you wanted to gank a frieghter pre-loot dropping, then you could, just as you can now. The only difference is that they have loot now. So to those who are going on tirelessly saying that it's not about the loot are just flat out lying. As for taking an escort, is that really going to help? As far as I'm aware the only person who can attack those who come to loot the wreck is the pilot himself, anyone else would get concordokkened or did that get changed to? That is only the case if the freighter is in an NPC corp. Hence, don't be. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:27:00 - [205] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:23:48 Assumptions. All Assumptions. Which won't hold true in the vast majority of cases. "Escort guard the wreck of the freighter until backup arrives" Assumptions: The escorts are alive Backup is nearby The escorts can pop the enemy freighter That flagging works in a way it does not Etc. Your "probable" scenario is a way-out "if everything goes perfectly" scenario. Which is easy to defeat in any number of ways, including using, say, 4 suicide frigates with warp scramblers. (If you can't see that one..) //Maya
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:31:00 - [206] Alrighty Ki An... Obviously you are talking out of your ass. Born on july 12th 2006 will reach 10 months of age in EvE on may 12th and judging by your sig you are a pvp enthusiast. A glance at your bio lead me to belive you have a superiority complex and you will continue to whine / rant no matter what. I for one am playing EvE for nearly three years now. I've started in the time when there were no stations in 0.0 and the biggest ship to haul stuff around was itty 5 with 5 local expanders. T2 was on a drawingboard and Yulai was the trade hub of EvE. The greatest amount needed to be hauled was 10odd Million units of minerals to build a BS which took 4 trips in an itty 5. Now to be a successful industrialist one needs to operate at least one freighter at all times. Being in NPC corp is the way to go due to everyone being wardecced in the last 3-6 months by privateers. You talk about a scouting alt..... Have you got any idea how utterly boooooring freighter ops are? Have you ever had a privilidge of flying one 50 jumps around empire EVERY DAY? It takes a freighter 3-10 minutes to get through EACH system on instajumps. If you fly it afk it does about 8-10 jumps per hour so a trip from Jita to Rens takes about THREE hours afk. If you sit by the computer and stare into the monitor and fly it actively it still takes 1,5 hours to traverse the route. Who in the right mind would want to drag other people into that boredom and routine? Not me... Having a scounting alt goes against the very principle of MMORPG. Note the last three letters stand for Role Playing Game. This means that every char is supposed to be independant from each other. A lot of us are braking immersion i agree. But to pay 30$/Ç/Ł a month for two accounts to bore myself to death on a daily basis is just a ridiculus idea. Considering the Providence takes 15 Capital armor parts but Archon only takes 10 the Freighter should have 206.000 armor HP and not 24k it has now. Another argument advocating for the HP boost would be the simple fact a freighter costs as much as a carrier to build and should at least have a similar HP mirroring that fact. Another argumet to the HP boost would be the simple fact freighters are completely defensless (no slots). Whoever is talking nonsense about logistics ships: It took them 38 seconds to chew through 150.000 HP. My 6k shield was gone after the first second. 25k armor took about 5 secs and 120k struct took about 30 seconds. They had a LOT of room for errors because when my ship was stripped of HP and my client got hit by a 2min lagspike they had lost 4 ships and 10 at least were still firing. If i had like 20 Guardian logistics cruisers projecting shields on my ship maybe my ship would survive but who in the right mind flies around a freighter in empire not in wartime with 20 logistics cruisers infront of him. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Whoever is talking about flying with 2 buddies in BS's for protecting the wrecks: Minutes after being ganked i had 6 Battleships blinking red hovering around the wreck. If those two buddies would decide to fire upon any of those they would get vaporized in a moment and CONCORD would not lift a finger and being correct in doing so. Linkage to the pic (see the red squares) The ease of killing a freighter in empire and getting away with the booty is inviting more and more flies to the honeypot and thing will get worse quickly. Last but not least: A month ago it was just as easy to kill an enemy corp's npc corp freighter as so many are arguing it was done to me. Nobody could get away with the loot but using 100-200 million isk to kill a ship that is worth x5 more and any cargo it is carrying as an added bonus. Nobody did it then yet now they discovered it's easy to do and as i already said it things will get out of hands fast. CCP fix the damn thing fast.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:32:00 - [207] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:23:48 Assumptions. All Assumptions. Oh? Assumptions? Please explain. Originally by: Maya Rkell Which won't hold true in the vast majority of cases. No? When will they not? Originally by: Maya Rkell [ "Escort guard the wreck of the freighter until backup arrives" Assumptions: The escorts are alive Why wouldn't they be? Originally by:* Maya Rkell Backup is nearby Yes, but that's up to the freighter pilot's corp to make sure. Originally by:* Maya Rkell [ The escorts can pop the enemy freighter Why shouldn't two BS be able to pop a freighter with no possible interference from anyone? Originally by:* Maya Rkell [ That flagging works in a way it does not Please point out where I am wrong. Originally by:* Maya Rkell [ Your "probable" scenario is a way-out "if everything goes perfectly" scenario. Which is easy to defeat in any number of ways, including using, say, 4 suicide frigates with warp scramblers. (If you can't see that one..) How would that help? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:33:00 - [208] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:32:17 "failed because they gained nothing whatsoever." Not as far as the person losing the freighter is concerned. They have STILL taken a massive loss. This will drive any trade-for-the-sake-of-trade people out of business. AGAIN. "Oh and if the æsuicide squadÆ waste time on the escorts that too is mission failure" Assuming they die BEFORE concord arrives. Bad assumption. "Trade existed just fine before freighters" For a smaller ship, you just kill it with less BS. Your point? "a few successful suicide ganks here and there are going to be a drop in the ocean" It's being done on an industrial scale (pun intended), and will rise quickly. It's highly profitable, ffs. I can accurately predict from past trends the effect on trade, yes. It's been seen before. This is the tip of the iceburg. Fear of losing your entire cargo is as good as losing it for shutting down trade. Ki An, stop disecting my posts and read them. You cannot dismiss the legitimate issues with your rosy assumptions with a handwave, you'll need to actually address them. You are plain wrong, to answer your only real question. //Maya
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:36:00 - [209] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron Not so fast. A simple log-in trap on would take care of many of your suggestions. Or a spotter in a two-gate system giving the gankers a heads-up. Sigh... no it won't... Please... try to understand... shakes head in disbelief /Ki These things are done today. They are not hard. The time to execute these is not significant when you understand the game mechanics and have worked on your timing. So I don't know where you're coming up with your casually dismissive rebuttles. Log-in trap: Takes approximately the same time it takes to go through a gate and transverse a system and is lag dependent. However, all sides will have the lag issue so it's not like you're really on the wrong end of anything. So, freigher is spotted entering gate to two-gate system. "Log in" comes over team speak. By the time the freigher has cleared the first gate and arrived at the second, the escort-spotter has moved on and trap is ready. If the gankers aren't experienced, they can wait on the other side of the second gate to get a bit more time but increase the risk of the spotter figuring it out and warning the freighter. Spotter/safe-spot/gang-warp trap: The gank-gang will arrive many, many seconds ahead of the frieghter if reasonably well aligned and set for a short 1AU type of trap. Freighter just won't have a chance when he meets you at the target gate.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:40:00 - [210] Once the frieghter is popped why do you then need to do any shooting if you're the gankers? Unless it's to clear away any one who is escort so you can get your own frieghter in there, which is probably standing by in a station somewhere nearby and will probably turn up with a much larger task force for clear up. After the initial short gank, the gankers need not fire a single shot as the clean up crew will probably be a seperate group, so not on the "you can shoot them" list, thus giving them immunity due to concord already being there. The only possible glitch is when the gank groups freighter pilot actually loots the wreck, which if he's any good he'll do after having aligned for exit and most of the way to warp to 0 at the local station. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:46:00 - [211] Hasn't the risk vs reward ratio been moved to far in favor of the attackers? If, as suggested, a Domi can be made cheaper than the isurance payout, what is the negative effects of ganking a freighter? I mean you have an activity that can potentially produce a lot of reward for very little risk? And what options does the frieghter have? Do to what I believe is an over sight by CCP, the ability of drones to continue attacking makes ganking the freighter much easier to happen then probably desired. Add to the fact that a scout is not much help. True, a group of Domi's at the gate is a dead give away, but with as cheaply as this can be done, couldn't a group of dedicated players join an NPC corp, or create several small corps that could avoid easy detection. But lets face it, you dont even need to go to that much hassel, just hide of the gate away from the scout. If you look at the escort idea, it wont work. Unless you brought a rather large fleet of support ships (which may be what CCP wants) then their is no real way to protect your frieghter. As to the suggestion that your 2 support ships can protect the wreckage until help arrives is faulty. A simple solution is to have a frieghter standing by belonging to another corp than the one that was the original attacker. I am all for freighters being vulnerable to attack but right now their is no disadvantage to attacking one. Why not drop the insurance payouts for those ships involved with a criminal activity. Also allow frieghters the ability to add mid/low slots. Heck, why not do this. Add low slots (your choice of number). Then do some math, figure out how much space would be added if you filled the low spots with expanders, then reduce the base cargo capacity of a freighter. This way you can either equip your ship for defence or cargo capacity.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:49:00 - [212] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 19:32:17 "failed because they gained nothing whatsoever." Not as far as the person losing the freighter is concerned. They have STILL taken a massive loss. This will drive any trade-for-the-sake-of-trade people out of business. AGAIN. Yes, the gank squad, in destroying the freighter, but not recovering the loot, gained nothing whatsoever, thank you for agreeing to my point. Originally by: Maya Rkell "Oh and if the æsuicide squadÆ waste time on the escorts that too is mission failure" Assuming they die BEFORE concord arrives. Bad assumption. If the escorts get picked on first, the gank squad gets jammed to merry hell before taking out the freighter - mission failure. Originally by: Maya Rkell "Trade existed just fine before freighters" For a smaller ship, you just kill it with less BS. Your point? Yes...everyone recalls that suicide ganks on industrials completely destroyed empire trade before the era of freighters... Originally by: Maya Rkell "a few successful suicide ganks here and there are going to be a drop in the ocean" It's being done on an industrial scale (pun intended), and will rise quickly. It's highly profitable, ffs. I can accurately predict from past trends the effect on trade, yes. It's been seen before. This is the tip of the iceburg. Fear of losing your entire cargo is as good as losing it for shutting down trade.. I think it will balance itself out in the long run, suicide ganks on industrials did not shut down empire trade before, I seriously doubt it will be any different this time (no, YOU do not know for sure, so stop pretending to do so...) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:56:00 - [213] Originally by: Dolika Whoever is talking about flying with 2 buddies in BS's for protecting the wrecks: Minutes after being ganked i had 6 Battleships blinking red hovering around the wreck. If those two buddies would decide to fire upon any of those they would get vaporized in a moment and CONCORD would not lift a finger and being correct in doing so. Linkage to the pic (see the red squares) In your screenshot there are 80+ Concord Battleships around the wreck, if those '6 Battleships' interfered with the downed freighters escort (say 2 Battlships), while said escort defended the wreck and shot up the flagged 'loot freighter', they would be near insta-vaporised... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:02:00 - [214] before we go about another few circles in this endless discussion of subjective rights and wrongs... i want everyone to take a look at the backstory... since when is empire ganking = common occurance? or are we going to use the "eve is what you make it" ideology and hence make freighters obsolete ? yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them talking about theories and this and that does not further your cause - from the current facts we can already discern that freighters that make a 5-10% profit but provide goods to where they would otherwise not be, or come overpriced will NOT be doing any further runs this WILL affect the economy and i am glad this thead is on the first page - I think everyone should start doing this until eve is broke currently it is not broke and most of the crying is for a very few freighters that were mostly unprotected ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:03:00 - [215] @Ki An: A scout does nothing, apart from forcing people to use logon traps, that HAS to be the oldest trick in the book and im amazed you didnt think about(or maybe not). Also i find your escort idea funny just a few points to point out why they dont do anything: 1) All you need are a few dudes in shuttles moving the smaller valuable loot from the freighter wreck to some jettisoned cans. Sure your escorts can shoot the shuttles, but that loot is now in THEIR cans, and you cant scoop it back without getting the target of a most likely superior force(they planned it remember?). 2) Just have your freighter scoop the loot in the wreck, and three or four frigates suicide by using ECM bursts in your escorts while another webs the freighter who aligned before scooping the loot and has him instantly warp off. Substitute the ecm burst for whatever you feel like basicly, you just need to break their lock for a split second. 3) Even if the aggressor choose to dont loot the wreck, your escorts cant prevent ransoming of the wreck. Yes you read right. Your shiney billions that survived in that wreck are just a kestrel away from going poof, you better pay up. Besides i think there is a gross misconception about how much 15 domis cost after insurance. Just running the numbers out of my memory domi insurance is about 20 mil, ship cost is about 50 mil, and payout about 62 mil. Meaning each domi costs you about 8 mil, add another 5 mil for a basic t1 fitting(guns 200k each, a few plates, t1 eanms, ogres 50k each + whatever) with some ogres I and we get 13 mil. So we have a grand total of 195 mil after insurance. Ofc some stuff will survive and you can salvage the ships if some scavanger isnt faster. So in reality even if you move a single billion worth of stuff and only 500 mil survive its still a profit for them. P.S. And they dont have to "hunt" for freighters either, just wait at a gate leading to a busy highsec system, there is bound to be freighters moving around there. After all they dont want to kill a specific freigher, but ANY freighter with more than 1 bil, which greatly increases the liklyhood of encountering one.
TerryTigre Dragonquestor	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:06:00 - [216] One argument against low slots for reduced cargo capacity would be that different quality cargo expanders would influence how much was carried on a massive scale. If a new type of expander was introduced, then this would mean freighters suddenly could carry a lot more. Thus it might be better to have freighter sized expanders, of only one type, and only those would fit. That would keep the freighter cargo capacity balanced. But i think the original poster is right, this will change the freighters massively. Even the people saying it wont change much think you need 4 people now to move the freighters. That is, if 4 people are enough to protect them, and that isnt actually the case, the freighters are still dead regardless of the team. Using the team might possibly insure that the attackers dont get to loot the wreck, if youre lucky, have backup, and the attackers didnt count on the backup. Joy. Now, does this change trade on a major scale? I would think so. Is it in favor of the attacker? Without a doubt. It remains to be seen how popular it will become. If it becomes popular and isnt nerfed, i would invest in domini and drone blueprints, and make a profit from those... because those are going to be selling like hotcakes
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:08:00 - [217] Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:09:00 - [218] My patience with stupidity is reached. I am out of this thread. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:16:00 - [219] I'd suggest that all the smart people who suggest remote repairs as a means to counter such ganks try it out themselfes. look at the cap usage of those modules. then think about the lag that 15++ domis with their 75 (90 entities) will create and how much that will be amplified by the concord ships turning up. using drones in a highsec-gank is an exploit of game mechanics (concord doesnt jam your drones) and should be pettitioned. as a fix there should be 2 things done: no insurance for ships destroyed by concord. concord jam lets you immediatelly loose contact to your drones like cloaking would do
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:18:00 - [220] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off?
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:19:00 - [221] "This is the end of trade in empire as we know it" Because trade didn't exist before freighters were implemented right?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:23:00 - [222] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... //Maya
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:24:00 - [223] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... True, but your locks on the hostile freighter are broken, so no warp scrambling, and since its webbed and aligned it will warp in less than a second. Besides i even doubt that you manage to scramble it in the time between the pilot moving the loot and hitting warp. You know freighters really warp awefully fast once they are alinged and at 100% speed(webbed).
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:29:00 - [225] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:32:00 - [226] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) How exactly do they kill a freighter that scooped the wreck while there are flying 15 frigs around doing ecm burst, dampening and whatever before a prealigned and webbed freighter can warp off? Simple, the 15 frigates doing their 'stuff' get vaporised in a microsecond by the 80+ Concord Battleships that are already on the scene... True, but your locks on the hostile freighter are broken, so no warp scrambling, and since its webbed and aligned it will warp in less than a second. Besides i even doubt that you manage to scramble it in the time between the pilot moving the loot and hitting warp. You know freighters really warp awefully fast once they are alinged and at 100% speed(webbed). We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Ki An My patience with stupidity is reached. I am out of this thread. /Ki i have to say this make me wet myself something silly and have np admitting it
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:40:00 - [228] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:40:43 Originally by: Gabriel Karade ]Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening Try reading then I won't need to put things into caps, eh? And no, they didn't kill trade prior. That was in an entirely different balance suituation and quite irrelevant to the actual situation of today due to it being WAY harder to do these things based on ship balance. Concord showed up far more quickly, and can flagging wasn't an issue. Also, the entire thing is based on things dying BEFORE CONCORD SHOW UP. (See, third repetition, CAPS!) //Maya
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:51:00 - [229] Originally by: Gabriel Karade We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? Ah thats not very nice, so you pick which layer of complexity is "one to many", and it just happens to be the one that counters your argument? Tbh i dont see whats so complex about preventing two battleships from warpscrambling a freighter for the split second he needs to warp. That being said i agree that this isnt a greater problem for the majority of eve players, i dont fly a freighter, and my corp and alliance dont use freighters in high sec either and we live just fine. However i just felt that those "counters" to prevent the suiciding of a freighter are not exactly the best. If we are honest nothing will prevent 15-30 dedicated players from killing any ship anywhere in highsec as they please, getting a profit might be more difficult though. Then again, sometimes my enemies loss is my profit. About the only change i would propose is one to the security hit, i find it a little odd that the security hit for killing a capital ship in empire is the same as that for killing a n00b frigate or shuttle. One of the most important aspects of eve is that you can do whatever you want, but have to live with the consequences. Incase of piracy(suiciding is simply piracy from concords point of view) that is a security hit you have to grind back, and in highsec the loss of your ship. There should maybe be a difference in wether you do little things like ganking poor miners with bantams in belts or engaging capital trade vessels. Since people dont pirate freighters that often it shouldnt inconvinience people to much, its more of a balancing to the more traditional pirates who like to leave with their ships intact and loose standing much faster even though they do much less actual damage(isk wise).
IWantANewJob State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:03:00 - [230] This is an interesting post. If freighters are so easily ganked in empire then we do indeed have a problem. Cost of Freightes will increase. Cost of items transported in freighters will increase. Low end minerals, POS fuel and POS output being the bulk of items moved. Thus the cost of items produced using the same low end minerals and POS will also increase. I can understand the need for a corp/alliance to invest in a fleet of 10-15 Domi's to hit an enemy freighter piloted by an noob corp alt. I do have a problem with "pirate" ganking of freighters in empire as there is no real defence. You can't fit them with any mods to assist in tanking or warping, never mind shooting. Empire should be relativly "safe" and a big ship like a freighter should be able to last more than a minute. The loss for this corp was 15 insured domi's. Isn't it about time that insurance was void if ship loss was to concord? At least that would hurt the "pirate" corp a little more. Making freighter's stronger could also be an answer but that would then affect valid Freighter targets such as wars and 0.0 space combat. Our corp flys 1 frighter and its loss would have a major effect on the corp. I saw that blob and wonderd what had caused it, now I know. At the end of the day we will all pay for it through higher priced materials and goods. Just an alt, looking for a new job for his main.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:09:00 - [231] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: SiJira yall can claim about 2 BS able to save a freighter but i would like you to experience this by trying to be the escorts yourself and coming back here letting us know how many times you actually saved them That's the point, they don't save the freighter, they save the wreck from being looted, which in turn becomes a disincentive to the gank in the first place (nothing to gain if you can't recover the loot) ya um the freighter is still lost - to some thats loss enough ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:16:00 - [232] Originally by: IWantANewJob At the end of the day we will all pay for it through higher priced materials and goods. no we wont because the pirates will get all their goods off the loot half of wich got destroyed anyways thats what theyll argue this is going the way of the privateers and it will be changed not if but when ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:30:00 - [233] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? Privs were nerfed (for better or for worse) because they were using the war dec mechanic in a way CCP hadnt intended or, aparently, wished for. Whereas Freighters afaik were always meant to drop loot/wrecks like all other ships; just that it hasnt been till now that theyve come up with an accceptable solution to the insane lag & server stress a destroyed freighter could cause dropping loot. That freighter died saddeningly fast if your log is correct. Then again; your freighter being killed by 15 dominixs really isnt much different from an expensively fitted bs' being ravaged by 15-20 T1 frigates. Its just the way it is, bad for some, good for others: fun when your doing it, sucks when its done to you.
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:56:00 - [234] Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? Privs were nerfed (for better or for worse) because they were using the war dec mechanic in a way CCP hadnt intended or, aparently, wished for. Whereas Freighters afaik were always meant to drop loot/wrecks like all other ships; just that it hasnt been till now that theyve come up with an accceptable solution to the insane lag & server stress a destroyed freighter could cause dropping loot. That freighter died saddeningly fast if your log is correct. Then again; your freighter being killed by 15 dominixs really isnt much different from an expensively fitted bs' being ravaged by 15-20 T1 frigates. Its just the way it is, bad for some, good for others: fun when your doing it, sucks when its done to you. This begs the question; did CCP intend for freighters to be taken down so easliy with so little cost to the attackers? I dont think that CCP expected drone boats to by pass Concord, or really put much thought into how cheaply a fleet of Dome's could be bought together. Couple that with the insurance payout and you have to ask if this is what CCP wants.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:29:00 - [235] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:40:43 Originally by: Gabriel Karade ]Try avoiding caps-lock, you come across as a slavering maniac sometimes you know... And how did the escorts die?... who killed them with 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene? hello Maya? criminal flagging?... Suicide ganks did not kill trade prior to freighters being on the scene. End of story. Have a good evening Try reading then I won't need to put things into caps, eh? And no, they didn't kill trade prior. That was in an entirely different balance suituation and quite irrelevant to the actual situation of today due to it being WAY harder to do these things based on ship balance. Concord showed up far more quickly, and can flagging wasn't an issue. Also, the entire thing is based on things dying BEFORE CONCORD SHOW UP. (See, third repetition, CAPS!) I am reading Maya, you just aren't reading my replies fully. If the gank squad pops the freighter first the escort BS's would not die. If the gank squad targeted the escort first, Concord shows up and jams the gank squad, the freighter wouldn't die. In short an escort would still be around to guard the wreck and prevent a 'loot freighter' doing it's job because you'd have to kill them before the 80+ Concord Battleships on the scene insta-frag you. The whole gank scenario relies not on killing before Concord shows up, but rather having enough firepower left hitting the freighter (hence using Domi's with loads of drones) to finish it once they do show up. And if you go a long way back it wasn't 'way harder' it was infact way easier, with the likes of cruise missile kestrels suiciding industrials... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:39:00 - [236] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:41:25 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... Obviously freighters have a purpose. However, I'll give you a billion isk (made through trading ) if you can prove that the lack of freighters will bring an end to trading. Please do it. I need some humor in my life . That, and of course the fact that this is the original topic in the first place. EDIT" I just noticed you help to build my case Quote: Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... So.. suicide ganking is easier on smaller ships? I agree. Notice that suiciding smaller industrials has been around for a looong time. Has trade stopped because of it?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:39:00 - [237] Originally by: Bentula Originally by: Gabriel Karade We both know that with each added layer of complexity (the gankers could do this... then counter this by doing this...oh and then follow up doing this...), the chances of it actually happening are going from slim to virtally none, so lets leave it at that eh? Ah thats not very nice, so you pick which layer of complexity is "one to many", and it just happens to be the one that counters your argument? Tbh i dont see whats so complex about preventing two battleships from warpscrambling a freighter for the split second he needs to warp. a) You have to have another suicide squad ready to jam the escorts long enough for the 'loot freighter' to escape. So now we need a suicide Battleship squad, a freighter setup to land perfectly within scoop range of the wreck and a suicide EW frigate squad to help this freighter escape. We're up to 30 people v.s. 3 so lets bring in in more escorts to counter the counter-escorts hmm wait a second what was that about increasing complexity and implausibility?... b)You assume ECM bursts work first time perfectly, and the frigates would last long enough under mass Concord fire (basically as soon as those frigates activate a module they are dead) to stop the escorts preventing the 'loot freighter' running away with the swag. c)This is starting to get off topic ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:44:00 - [238] can we all agree on one thing ? concord jams you - so you arent meant to keep attacking once the concord force arrives - drones bypassing this ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE agreed? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Admiral Pieg Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:44:00 - [239] Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. ______________ Pod from above.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:50:00 - [240] Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:53:00 - [241] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:49:10 double post
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:54:00 - [242] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:57:00 - [243] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:53:51 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot Those two are mutually linked. Talking about one is talking about the other; The loss of a freighter is directly proportional to the reward of the ganker and vice versa.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:58:00 - [244] This is a good thing IMHO. All the non-freighter pilots in empire can now make a little bit more money. I was already tired of so many freighters in my system. Is imposible to compete with those pilots on the market unless you get your own freighter too.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:03:00 - [245] yeah, I stopped using freighters to transport things myself, and started to build where I sell, (not that great though..) that or you can time your freighter runs in the weeee hours of.. whatever eve time where is 12k ppl on... but yeah, I would be happy if they give me afew mid slots (since low would fit expanders...) and enough PG/CPU to fit some shield hardeners. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:04:00 - [246] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:53:51 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Originally by: Admiral Pieg Eve is based on risk vs reward yes? Isnt the risk vs reward in this occasion a bit unbalanced? I mean each t1 fitted suicide domi would lose what, 5 mill? Not to mention its nigh impossible for the freighter pilot to protect themselves against this, support or not. If the freighter pilot is forced to use a crapload of logistic support (which probably wont even work) or the grueling task of scouting every single system in advance and assessing if the gate camps are threats (lets not forget this is high sec), then its only fair if the suicide gankers lose more then a measly 5-10 mill per suicide no? Getting concorded in highsec should void your insurance policy, period. What about accidental shootings you say? Tough luck i reply. False. If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ? Obviously reward for using a freighter still is greater then the risk. Plus, your numbers are messed up. I think the focus is on the reward for the attackers, rather than the risk for the frieghter pilot Those two are mutually linked. Talking about one is talking about the other; The loss of a freighter is directly proportional to the reward of the ganker and vice versa. They may be linked but not equal. Right now the risk is too low for attacking a freighter. You can adjust the risk vs reward ratio for the attackers without touching the freighter.
Caplan121 Amarr Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:17:00 - [247] I guess we just have to live with the fact that Freighters are no longer a safe in Empire. But you have to keep in mind that if this ganking business catches on , look for them to hang out around the main trade hubs.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:34:00 - [248] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 23:31:00 Okay.. Im going to stop this quote pyramid . Originally by: Jayson Lee They may be linked but not equal. Right now the risk is too low for attacking a freighter. You can adjust the risk vs reward ratio for the attackers without touching the freighter. I never said they were equal. As for the second part of your statement, I fail to see how suiciding a freighter is different (risk vs reward -wise) from suiciding on an industrial, albeit on a much bigger scale.
IWantANewJob State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.05 23:34:00 - [249] I really don't think that CCP intented the the Freighter Ship to be able to be ganked so quickly and so cheaply. I wonder if fittting capital armour/shield boosters would be the answer. It would make little differnce to the afk Freighter Pilot but could help those that use Warp 0. Just an alt, looking for a new job for his main.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:22:00 - [250] Gabriel Karade, no, you clearly are NOT reading. Again, you're making an assumption which simply dosn't hold true in many situations. Sigh. "And if you go a long way back" This was a SPECIFIC reference to "when freighters came in", and before THAT. Not at some point where balance was even MORE different. And the thing is, sure, 30 people are needed to gank it. They still made a load of ISK, and the 3 lost it. And the 30 can repeat over and over and over. Your point? It's STILL death to trade. Athanasios Anastasiou, we beat you. Get over it. I'm not "proving" anything, it's evident from knowing anything about theory of games. "If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ?" This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. This tactic has only just been started by one group, and the thread starter has made the mistake of hilighting it as a good, working strategy. You can expect instances of it to quickly become more common, and freighter usage to fall off. That it has not yet fallen off proves nothing whatsoever. And no, the freighter pilot cares not for the gankers. They've taken a loss, end of story. The DIFFERENCE between this an an industrial is that you can reasonably escape gankers in many industrials against a few gankers. Scale to freighters and 15BS? There is nothing, nothing AT ALL which the freighter can do. //Maya
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:24:00 - [251] What % of freighters get ganked? I'm guessing a very small percentage, a fraction of 1% What % of freighters that get ganked are alts of 0.0 residents? I'm guessing almost all of them. So what's the problem with having alliance shipping get cut off, why is that an issue? I'll rephrase the question. Why should I care if a BoB freighter alt full of T2 stuff never makes it to empire because of a D2 domi gank fleet in .5? Why should that be a concern for CCP? Eve is a PVP game right? Right? Right. You know that anything can get ganked at any point right? Right. So why are we here talking about a freighter that got ganked? From a human perspective, if that was me that lost a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff...that would hurt. On the other hand, if you can afford a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff, you prolly own a few T2 BPO's, and this is prolly not your first shipment, you prolly make 4 bill shipments of T2 parts into empire weekly. Like I said, I might be sympathetic if some empire miner lost his freighter full of isogen. But when its someone's freighter alt losing his bi-weekly 4 billion isk T2 parts shipment, losing 1 shipment doesn't even hurt him financially.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:35:00 - [252] "Why should I care if a BoB freighter alt full of T2 stuff never makes it to empire because of a D2 domi gank fleet in .5?" Why indeed? Well, what then about the independent who loses two freighters full of gear and quits, pushing up prices? THAT is a concern. Alliances and and do take countermeasures. Individuals and non-alligned small corps are forced out the market. This means that, even more, you're in an alliance or don't bother loading Eve. That cuts off anyone who can't dedicate a lot of time to Eve, given the demands of Eve alliances on peoples time. "On the other hand, if you can afford a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff, you prolly own a few T2 BPO's" Sigh. T2 BPO's are NOT the road to wealth some people think they are. The vast majority are NOT that profitable. And the big T2 sellers I know, with a single exception (and that because he got the Cap Recharger II) BOUGHT their T2 BPO's using profit from trade! Drop the sterotype, it dosn't work. //Maya
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.06 00:42:00 - [253] Originally by: Maya Rkell Gabriel Karade, no, you clearly are NOT reading. Again, you're making an assumption which simply dosn't hold true in many situations. Sigh. "And if you go a long way back" This was a SPECIFIC reference to "when freighters came in", and before THAT. Not at some point where balance was even MORE different. And the thing is, sure, 30 people are needed to gank it. They still made a load of ISK, and the 3 lost it. And the 30 can repeat over and over and over. Your point? It's STILL death to trade. Athanasios Anastasiou, we beat you. Get over it. I'm not "proving" anything, it's evident from knowing anything about theory of games. "If risk is greater then reward for the freighter pilot as you claim, then why are people still flying freighters ?" This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. This tactic has only just been started by one group, and the thread starter has made the mistake of hilighting it as a good, working strategy. You can expect instances of it to quickly become more common, and freighter usage to fall off. That it has not yet fallen off proves nothing whatsoever. And no, the freighter pilot cares not for the gankers. They've taken a loss, end of story. The DIFFERENCE between this an an industrial is that you can reasonably escape gankers in many industrials against a few gankers. Scale to freighters and 15BS? There is nothing, nothing AT ALL which the freighter can do. You make me smile. I'm somehow 'beaten' by something that is 'evident from knowing anything about the theory of gaming,' yet you refuse to say what it is. Comon.. free billion if you do... Originally by: Maya Rkell This post is clear, blatent indicator of your absolute bias in the matter. I suppose that you aren't biased at all about this matter. Looks at the amount of flames you've posted on people disagreeing with you Nope, you're not biased at all . Hypocrisy is bad okay?
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:09:00 - [254] Claiming ignorance of the near past is transparent. As I said.. And no, I don't flame. I happen to hold a viewpoint counter to that of your bias. And I'm not afraid to point out that it, unlike your argument, hangs together under critical analysis. //Maya
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:15:00 - [255] Originally by: Maya Rkell Claiming ignorance of the near past is transparent. As I said.. And no, I don't flame. I happen to hold a viewpoint counter to that of your bias. And I'm not afraid to point out that it, unlike your argument, hangs together under critical analysis. So, then, what do you propose as a solution?
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:19:00 - [256] Originally by: MacDuncan Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Or maybe just the known alliance alts in NPC Corps stopp hauling the "war goods" afk on a 2nd/3rd/4th Acc. through the "safe empire"...but only maybe... I never really noticed cheap T2 mods anywhere outside of a major trade hub anyway. stretch S'why I have alts to work the Jita run.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:20:00 - [257] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/05/2007 03:17:11 Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Well my suggestion is to whine and whine and whine and whine and get all your mates to whine so many times in so many threads that something done about it. SKUNK I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:45:00 - [258] Originally by: whisk YARRRRR YARRRRRR> òòòòòòòòòòòò VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:01:00 - [259] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. I'm all for the 'Eve is a freeform game' bit, but this has got to be stopped. Why the hell did they make freighters drop cargo? What did that solve? It solved the original problem they had when freighters popped out huge amounts of stuff into space and lagged the hell out of the game. What's wrong with this is that freighters are the only ship in the game that can't have fittings. People who flew them in the past rationalized this with the fact that they couldn't drop loot even if they got blown up, which made suicide ganks for profit impossible. Now that it is possible to gank, they need to consider the fact that the only ship left in the game without fittings just got a whole lot more appeallig as a target, especially without escort. At least one lowslot needs to be added to freighters for their own defense, WITHOUT nerfing any of their other stats whatsoever. Also insurance payouts should be revoked for empire suicide ganks where concord is involved, for the ganker.
Hellman109 Gallente Magnetar Ltd Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:11:00 - [260] ^^ a low slot would allow cargo expanders though... upto 27.5% increase in space IIRC with T1/T2 stuff.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:25:00 - [261] Originally by: Hellman109 ^^ a low slot would allow cargo expanders though... upto 27.5% increase in space IIRC with T1/T2 stuff. If they want to be an idiot and fit cargo expanders...more loot for the gankers. I'd be fitting a damage control and eanm II('s). You'd need a lot more domi's with that much structure at 60% resists.
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:43:00 - [262] Originally by: Cipher7 No, because removing insurance could be seen as discouragement from ganking in highsec. Believe it or not, in Eve you can profit from PVP, its called PIRACY. Attacking civil transportation in highsec for-profit is no less valid than mining veldspar. The original pirates of the high seas had no one paying them if they lost their ships attacking a treasure Galleon, why should you expect to be paid insurance?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:53:00 - [263] Originally by: SiJira can we all agree on one thing ? concord jams you - so you arent meant to keep attacking once the concord force arrives - drones bypassing this ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE agreed? -------------- ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:20:00 - [264] Originally by: Swirler How is it that whenever something comes along that makes the game fun again, pussles like you want to fix it? Leave it alone. Concord/Cops can not be there all the time, just like real life. Thats fine, get rid of insurance payouts resulting from criminal activity "just like real life"!!!
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:36:00 - [265] A lot of people seem to think its actually worth ganking 90% of the freighters, did you actually bother to think about that? If you have 20 Suicide Domis, it means you split the reward /20. Add to that the fact that the freighter might have stacked cargo, that might just as well blow up with the ship. It's totally avoidable to pose a target.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:49:00 - [266] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Except that whinebears like yourself want to increase those losses to suit your agenda. If the costs of ganking in highsec become prohibitively expensive, it is the same thing as having a big "YOU MAY NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER" flashing over your ship. Highsec ganking should occur, it should occur often, it should hamper commercial shipping, and one should be able to make a profit from it if he picks the right target and has good intel. Removing insurance would remove the profit. Spend 1.5 bil to loot 1 bil is not a profit. Spend .5 bil to loot 1 bil is a profit. Piracy = PVP for profit. Carebears want all highsec piracy to result in loss, so that it does not occur. Removing the insurance would not necessarily remove the profit. Many folks (primarily pirates) whined that freighters weren't dropping stuff. Now they do becauase CCP caved in and allowed a ship that has no means of defending itself has been allowed to drop loot. This has now created a out of proportion risk vs reward situation. I'm not suggesting anything more than the removal of insurance, because the other three options I don't believe are realistic for EVE and would serve to hurt the game more. It increases the cost of the gank but does not ensure you can't make a profit. 1.5 billion as you say to loot 1 billion isn't worth it. Well that's true. However in the case of the OP it wasn't 1 billion worth. It was much more than that. They still would have made a profit killing that particular freighter. It means that the pirates would have to work harder, use cargo scanners and ensure the target was worth the effort of the operation. Something that is very reasonable. I also suspect they had less than a 100 million in each of those Domis. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:50:00 - [267] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni What I don't get yet is why people think folks flying in highsec should need to take the same/similar precautions when flying around as those in lowsec/no-sec, no matter what they are flying. Isn't that kinda defeating the whole point of highsec? Yes it does.... Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:57:00 - [268] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. Wouldn't deter a suicide squad. AFter all their goal is to kill the freighter. They have already commited to losing their ships and they can easily tank the blasterthrons long enough to pop the freighter. How many battleship pilots you know that are willing to do this escort duty on a regular day to day basis? 2 guards would not be able to stop everyone from looting. All the freighter would have to do is align first before stealing anything get up some speed, open the wreck make the cargo switch and warp. (Could even use a tackler to help the warp faster...). Much like in life, you can't stop a determined assassin. No precaution you take is good enough, if the assassin is willing to die to carry out the mission he will be successful more often than not. I don't think hp boosts, module slots or making Empire completely safe are good options because it affects much more than ganking. The only really workable option is to remove the insurance payouts for criminal activity. It still allows you to attack the freighter. It will even allow a profit in some situations if you pick your targets carefully. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:05:00 - [269] so anyone going to gank all the freighters in rens ? because i counted over 10 different ones today some of wich did multiple trips to rens also isnt there that glitch that ccp never fixed that one can do to save a freighter? log off and when you go on other character it dissapears wether aggroed or not ? or did they fix that with the last patch ? ( im pretty sure they didnt) i mean if you think drones attacking after their owner is permajammed is an exploit then you might as well exploit to survive ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:08:00 - [270] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Except that whinebears like yourself want to increase those losses to suit your agenda. If the costs of ganking in highsec become prohibitively expensive, it is the same thing as having a big "YOU MAY NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER" flashing over your ship. Highsec ganking should occur, it should occur often, it should hamper commercial shipping, and one should be able to make a profit from it if he picks the right target and has good intel. Removing insurance would remove the profit. Spend 1.5 bil to loot 1 bil is not a profit. Spend .5 bil to loot 1 bil is a profit. Piracy = PVP for profit. Carebears want all highsec piracy to result in loss, so that it does not occur. Cipher, try to be logic and look at the real world: there is piracy, but where? in the third world zones where police or national navy are inexistant, not along the costs of the more developed nations. It as always been so. Even during the ages of the galleons ship weren't pirated near Spain or Portugal but in high seas. EVE must follow the same thrend. Only in the event of a war, against a war target, it should be possible to attack a shipe in high sec. Corporation are using neutrals to ferry goods, whell that is what happen even today. Even during WW2 and WW1 there were neutral ships trading between the warring nations, and they were untouchable unless it was possible to do so without discovert. Look the official motivation of the USA entering WW1: the sinking of the Lusitania. Beside passenger it was moving war material, but it was a ship of a neutral nation, so sinking it caused a big diplomatic incident and gave the USA government an excuse for is population to join the war.
Meer Chant	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:25:00 - [271] Originally by: Cipher7 From a human perspective, if that was me that lost a freighter and 4 bil worth of stuff...that would hurt. On the other hand, if you can afford a freighter almost and 4 bil worth of stuff, you prolly own a few T2 BPO's, and this is prolly not your first shipment, you prolly make 4 bill shipments of T2 parts into empire weekly. you shouldnt assume this. Were i to lose my freighter plus 4 b of stuff, i would be finacially devastated. Thats about 12 months of my work in trading up in smoke. I would be practically back to sqaure one. not everyone who drives a freighter is a rich t2 industrialist's alt.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:42:00 - [272] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. If I have just gankkilled with 15 BS, I will have 1 freighter and 14 BS alt to protect it in the same system, in station, so as soon as I lose the Domi I start my alt, and jump to the wreck. So what are to do your 2 blasterthorn against 1 freighter escorted by 14 BS in the same corp and ganged with him? Open fire and be cremated? Maybe they can destroy the wreck, conpunding the loss, but they must be fast doing that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:55:00 - [273] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Maya Rkell Backup is nearby Yes, but that's up to the freighter pilot's corp to make sure. Fantastic, now to move a freighter you need 1 reserve freighter and escort every 3 system to recover the loot. Be serious Ki. Originally by:* Maya Rkell *The escorts can pop the enemy freighter Why shouldn't two BS be able to pop a freighter with no possible interference from anyone? Becouse the enemy freighter will have an excort, 14 BS from the alt of the suicide pilots. So you will need 30 shisp, 15 to kill the freighter before it flee with the loot (and you can fire only after he has taken the loot) and 15 to engage the excorting fleet. 2 BS will simply melt as soon as they open fire.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 07:32:00 - [274] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/05/2007 22:41:25 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 20:19:30 Yes, you must be frustrated at yourself. Please do come back when you've considered the issues themselves. Gabriel Karade, SO WHAT? It dosn't matter that the gankers have made nothing. That ut utterly irrelevant. They have still inhibited trade. And the escorts dier AFTER the freighter. Try actually reading, neh? And as you're determined to be dense, PROFIT INCREASES INCENTIVES TO ATTACK. "I think it will balance itself out in the long run," Yes, when the traders have left the game. Again. That's called decimation of non-alliance interests, and the market will be poorer for it. Again. I do know this, from clear historical evidence. Athanasios Anastasiou, so nobody should of bothered with freighters then? Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... Obviously freighters have a purpose. However, I'll give you a billion isk (made through trading ) if you can prove that the lack of freighters will bring an end to trading. Please do it. I need some humor in my life . That, and of course the fact that this is the original topic in the first place. EDIT" I just noticed you help to build my case Quote: Ignoring the fact this works even better on smaller ships... So.. suicide ganking is easier on smaller ships? I agree. Notice that suiciding smaller industrials has been around for a looong time. Has trade stopped because of it? You are forgetting the "as we know it" part of the title. Trade will continue, but it will change (adapt as Ki and company call it). The adaption will be: higher prices to recover freighter loss (1 billlion ship), freighter cargo lost (about 50% even if it is recovered), time lost to assemble the escorting fleet, to the logistic of moving a fleet included reserve freighter for recovering the cargo, and time lost for the pilot fleet. So a 1 billion of cargo that before was sold for a 10% increase, even if it reach destination intact, will split the gain 4-5 parts, so it will require a 40-50% mark up to give the same return. The alternative is to move only in short hops, so the time spent by the escort is less. Naturally this kill, as it was pointed in numerous post, the freighter activity outside of a corporation. Today we have industrial corporations, geared for production, next step is hauling corporation builded around the need to protect freighters moving stuff.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 07:42:00 - [275] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/05/2007 07:38:44 Originally by: SiJira so anyone going to gank all the freighters in rens ? because i counted over 10 different ones today some of wich did multiple trips to rens also isnt there that glitch that ccp never fixed that one can do to save a freighter? log off and when you go on other character it dissapears wether aggroed or not ? or did they fix that with the last patch ? ( im pretty sure they didnt) i mean if you think drones attacking after their owner is permajammed is an exploit then you might as well exploit to survive ? It was reported by Dev some hundred of times as no existant. so if you are capable to do it, report all the step carefully in a bug report so it can be reproduced and fixed. If instead, as I think more probable, it is only a urban myth to expl,ain why some people is incapable to kill a target that has used more acceptable tactics, shut up.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 07:54:00 - [276] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/05/2007 07:38:44 Originally by: SiJira so anyone going to gank all the freighters in rens ? because i counted over 10 different ones today some of wich did multiple trips to rens also isnt there that glitch that ccp never fixed that one can do to save a freighter? log off and when you go on other character it dissapears wether aggroed or not ? or did they fix that with the last patch ? ( im pretty sure they didnt) i mean if you think drones attacking after their owner is permajammed is an exploit then you might as well exploit to survive ? It was reported by Dev some hundred of times as no existant. so if you are capable to do it, report all the step carefully in a bug report so it can be reproduced and fixed. If instead, as I think more probable, it is only a urban myth to expl,ain why some people is incapable to kill a target that has used more acceptable tactics, shut up. the hell are you talkin about try loggin off and putting a character on the same account online as fast as possible - have someone watch your ship ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:00:00 - [277] This is a bit sad for us, the hauling community. I started a thread about high sec freighters griefing problems and got good ideas on balancing freighters. But all the player killers who suicide ganks in high secs do not agree. They keep asking to get escorts and use alt scouts to scout ahead. This is a new thread which started after my thread ended. Same problem with the player killers. I think they refuse to acknowledge our problem because most of them will lose their power to abuse the hauling commnunity in high secs. Freighters are broken, please balance it CCP. High sec freighter griefing has to stop. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:35:00 - [278] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. If I have just gankkilled with 15 BS, I will have 1 freighter and 14 BS alt to protect it in the same system, in station, so as soon as I lose the Domi I start my alt, and jump to the wreck. So what are to do your 2 blasterthorn against 1 freighter escorted by 14 BS in the same corp and ganged with him? Open fire and be cremated? Maybe they can destroy the wreck, conpunding the loss, but they must be fast doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get a criminal flag for shooting someone who is already criminally flagged, therefore if the freighter steels the loot from the wreck (getting flagged in the process), the two escorts could shoot it up without the 14 Battleships being able to do anything (if they do, the 80+ Concord Battleships already on scene will insta-bbq them). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Zeth	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:40:00 - [279] woah.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:51:00 - [280] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/05/2007 08:52:13 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire This is a bit sad for us, the hauling community. I started a thread about high sec freighters griefing problems and got good ideas on balancing freighters. But all the player killers who suicide ganks in high secs do not agree. They keep asking to get escorts and use alt scouts to scout ahead. This is a new thread which started after my thread ended. Same problem with the player killers. I think they refuse to acknowledge our problem because most of them will lose their power to abuse the hauling commnunity in high secs. Freighters are broken, please balance it CCP. High sec freighter griefing has to stop. Interesting terms... "player killers" and "hauler community". Im surprised you didnt just go ahead and call the player killers "terrorists" while you're at it. Bush would be proud of you. Anyway, I think the current trend of Eve becoming more and more protective of the isk grinders is worrying. The problem is that if Eve becomes too much like WoW in that regard, it wont have anything left to distinguish itself from other games on the market. Almost all other games are isk grinding machines where players extend their e-peens with isk and stuff. I really dont see why Eve should go the same way as everybody else. It must be much better to keep a game original and hardcore than make it a clone of everything else. I dont see why you guys who dont like being unsafe just pick another game which has pvp flags, "you cant do that" message boxes, 100% safe zones and friendly npc's giving you quests and a warm shoulder to cry on when things go bad. Please allow Eve to continue to be unforgiving for the players who like that. You want all space above 0.4 to be completely safe so you can just play the game afk if you like? Suiciders make the game a lot more interesting. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:54:00 - [281] Originally by: Jim McGregor Interesting terms... "player killers" and "hauler community". Im surprised you didnt just go ahead and call the player killers "terrorists" while you're at it. Bush would be proud of you. Player killers are player killers. Please do not rebadge them into something else. Leave RL political stuffs out of eVe please. kthxbye. /JS --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 08:59:00 - [282] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/05/2007 08:55:44 Originally by: Jim McGregor Anyway, I think the current trend of Eve becoming more and more protective of the isk grinders is worrying. The problem is that if Eve becomes too much like WoW in that regard, it wont have anything left to distinguish itself from other games on the market. Almost all other games are isk grinding machines where players extend their e-peens with isk and stuff. I really dont see why Eve should go the same way as everybody else. It must be much better to keep a game original and hardcore than make it a clone of everything else. CCP is business. In business, if business unit can last for 10 years, I do not see why not it last for the next 10 years. Business will survive when the business is aimed at the majority of the playerbase. Playerbase evolves, the business evolves. Changes in eVe is good for everyone and new players experience. Quote the combat community, "Adapt or ..." /JS --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:01:00 - [283] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/05/2007 08:58:59 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Jim McGregor Anyway, I think the current trend of Eve becoming more and more protective of the isk grinders is worrying. The problem is that if Eve becomes too much like WoW in that regard, it wont have anything left to distinguish itself from other games on the market. Almost all other games are isk grinding machines where players extend their e-peens with isk and stuff. I really dont see why Eve should go the same way as everybody else. It must be much better to keep a game original and hardcore than make it a clone of everything else. CCP is business. In business, if business unit can last for 10 years, I do not see why not it last for the next 10 years. Business will survive when the business is aimed at the majority of the playerbase. Playerbase evolves, the business evolves. Changes in eVe is good for everyone and new players experience. Quote the combat community, "Adapt or ..." Thats only correct if a company is aiming to attract as many players as possible. Eve was never intended to be a game that everybody understands or enjoys. If ccp wanted to make another WoW, im sure they could. But they went another way and made a game they would enjoy themselfs instead. For that, I think they deserve tons of respect. If ccp wanted to attract as many players as possible, they should make low sec completely safe, introduce tons of missions, spend a year on making the AI fantastic, put in more "dungeons" with boss monsters, change the way tech works so that t2 is always better than t1, t3 is always better than t2 etc... then you would indeed have a game like everything else out there, which would attract the grinders out there, ie the majority of mmorpg players. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:05:00 - [284] Originally by: Jim McGregor Thats only correct if a company is aiming to attract as many players as possible. Eve was never intended to be a game that everybody understands or enjoys. If ccp wanted to make another WoW, im sure they could. But they went another way and made a game they would enjoy themselfs instead. For that, I think they deserve tons of respect. If ccp wanted to attract as many players as possible, they should make low sec completely safe, introduce tons of missions, spend a year on making the AI fantastic, put in more "dungeons" with boss monsters, change the way tech works so that t2 is always better than t1, t3 is always better than t2 etc... then you would indeed have a game like everything else out there, which would attract the grinders out there, ie the majority of mmorpg players. Can you prove eVe is not, will not and will never aimed to attract as many players as possible? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:19:00 - [285] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Jim McGregor Thats only correct if a company is aiming to attract as many players as possible. Eve was never intended to be a game that everybody understands or enjoys. If ccp wanted to make another WoW, im sure they could. But they went another way and made a game they would enjoy themselfs instead. For that, I think they deserve tons of respect. If ccp wanted to attract as many players as possible, they should make low sec completely safe, introduce tons of missions, spend a year on making the AI fantastic, put in more "dungeons" with boss monsters, change the way tech works so that t2 is always better than t1, t3 is always better than t2 etc... then you would indeed have a game like everything else out there, which would attract the grinders out there, ie the majority of mmorpg players. Can you prove eVe is not, will not and will never aimed to attract as many players as possible? Im sure they realize that the harder a game is, the less the majority will find it appealing. Most people like easy games where accomplishments are easy so they feel good about themselfs. If its too hard, they quit or come to the forum and try to change things about the game so it will suit them better. What would be the point in just collecting isk in a completely safe environment? That means that all you need is time to succeed - nothing else. Wouldnt that feel meaningless to you? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:26:00 - [286] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/05/2007 09:24:09 Originally by: Jim McGregor What would be the point in just collecting isk in a completely safe environment? That means that all you need is time to succeed - nothing else. Wouldnt that feel meaningless to you? Wait, I do not get this part. Are you saying you love losing? Or are you saying the playerbase should enjoy losing because it is good for the community, the game and the business? I do not know about you but I know I like to see my wallet growing bigger everyday. I dread watching my wallet shrinking daily. Maybe like in RL, I love to see myself moving forward because I have accomplished something. I do not know anyone who loves to move backward, maybe they are special? /JS --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:30:00 - [287] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Jim McGregor What would be the point in just collecting isk in a completely safe environment? That means that all you need is time to succeed - nothing else. Wouldnt that feel meaningless to you? Wait, I do not get this part. Are you saying you love losing? Or are you saying the playerbase should enjoy losing because it is good for the community, the game and business? I do not know about you but I know I like to see my wallet growing bigger everyday. I dread watching my wallet shrinking daily. Maybe like in RL, I love to see myself moving forward because I have accomplished something. I do not know anyone who loves to move backwards, maybe they are special? There are people who enjoy challenges and risks, and penalties when they fail. Then there are people who hates penalties and prefer not even having the option to fail. Maybe you dont see the point in having difficulties in a game, and thats fine, because I dont see the point of NOT having them. Guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.05.06 09:37:00 - [288] note to self, do not bother with a freighter unless ccp fixes this tbh, i think it is pretty lame that someone like D2 (or any big alliance/corp) would do stuff like this unless the target was an enemy freighter that was hiding in an NPC corp (most of u have seen that payback vid right? now that was awesome!) I dunno.. i think stuff like this going on in hi sec is pretty bad if it is directed at independant freighterpilots just trying to make a living and not working for an alliance/big corp and abusing the npc corp feature, true, hi sec was never meant to be 100% safe, but this... i dunno... it somehow does not sound like this is a game intended feature and therefor sounds a lot like against the EULA, but wth do i know, i didn't write the eula.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.06 11:36:00 - [289] Let me reiterate it again: The corp i am affiliated is not at war with D2, it does not have a hostile standing with D2 either. ALSO; The corp i am affiliated with is not a member of any 0.0 based alliance and is not claiming a single 0.0 system either so arguments like: i am an alt of a uber rich 0.0 based player who deserved what he had coming are just ridiculus. I BOUGHT every BPO i own and from first hand experience i can tell you that owning a BPO does not make one's wallet go from seven figure to eleven figure overnight. Not even in 6 months it does not. Why a big alliance like D2 would pull a stunt like that? Because they can and because it's very easy to do. It also pays extremely well. After ganking half dozen freighters they just send their team into their private 0.0 region to rat for a few days and regain security status. They have enough manpower to do a rotation or even multiple teams at the same time. What will you do when you see 10 Goon, BOB, LV, D2, IRON, AAA, RA etc gank teams blocking off Jita? It will most probably happen within 2 weeks time. As soon as they can get the logistics in place. Goons alone for example can muster 300 pilots easily. That's 10 teams with plenty of redundancy. What will everyone do then? AAA for example cannot miss if they want to gank freighters in empire basically every NPC corp alt is almost definately somekind of enemy. If only CCP would be willing to divulge the number of freighters ganked in empire every week in a month we'll see the number skyrocket and trade in hubs will cease because every producer will be hoarding items waiting for CCP to fix the mess. About the 2 Blasterthron escort idea: It's all nice and dandy when you have no clue how EvE actually works. Sure you can fire at a red blinking enemy who stole from your can but the second you open fire on him you are vulnerable to counterattack. Bye bye escorts. Yes. Trade was ok without Freighters. AT A MUCH MUCH SMALLER SCALE. At that time there was almost no T2, no Outposts, no carriers, no Motherships, no titans. If you look at the amount traded in hubs before the freighters came to be and amount traded today you will see a constant rising trend. EVE GDP went up a LOT because of the freighters and the safety they provided. Everyone became richer as a result. Now the path is already going down and i bet in a month or two the empire trade will diminish massively. Due to the fact the supply will diminish the prices will go upwards again and the whiners will be spamming threads again about Cov ops cloaks having a ripoff 70M isk pricetag or T2 invul fields costing 22M instead of 4M they cost now only because the vocal 1% of the pirating population in eve got their way once again. The trend started with haulers not being able to equip a 10MN MWD anymore because lowsec gankers whined and whined to CCP they cannot pop the haulers easily enough. Latest step was making completely defensless ships = freighters, drop cans which turned in motion an chain of events driven by greed among other things and it will get a LOT bloodier very fast if CCP doesnt do a rollback or bring freighter HP inline with other capships and give freighters some slots to defend themselves actively
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.06 11:47:00 - [290] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/05/2007 18:58:50 No, two won't suffice. Repeating a outright blatent lie to further your agenda won't help. You might have killed all of one of the attackers before the freighter goes down, gaining it perhaps four seconds. Maya...the point he was making was that two decent escorts (a pair of blasterthrons or other close range battleships would be ideal) would deter the gank in the first place as the suicide squad would not be able to bring in their own freighter to loot the remains, and even if they tried to hit the escorts, you'd already have dozens of Concord Battleships there that would play merry hell with any 'follow up' squad. If I have just gankkilled with 15 BS, I will have 1 freighter and 14 BS alt to protect it in the same system, in station, so as soon as I lose the Domi I start my alt, and jump to the wreck. So what are to do your 2 blasterthorn against 1 freighter escorted by 14 BS in the same corp and ganged with him? Open fire and be cremated? Maybe they can destroy the wreck, conpunding the loss, but they must be fast doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't get a criminal flag for shooting someone who is already criminally flagged, therefore if the freighter steels the loot from the wreck (getting flagged in the process), the two escorts could shoot it up without the 14 Battleships being able to do anything (if they do, the 80+ Concord Battleships already on scene will insta-bbq them). It is not a criminal flag, it is an aggression flag. It is one of the standard trick used against miners by people thealing jetcans. Thief steal jetcan in noobship, miner attack him with drones, peple in the same corp and ganged with him jump in and kill the miner without CONCORD reacting.
hybridundertaker Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:02:00 - [291] i strictly endorse freighter gankage even in npc corps in high sec. who said there should be ways to be invulnerable from player attacks? EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:08:00 - [292] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/05/2007 08:52:13 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire This is a bit sad for us, the hauling community. I started a thread about high sec freighters griefing problems and got good ideas on balancing freighters. But all the player killers who suicide ganks in high secs do not agree. They keep asking to get escorts and use alt scouts to scout ahead. This is a new thread which started after my thread ended. Same problem with the player killers. I think they refuse to acknowledge our problem because most of them will lose their power to abuse the hauling commnunity in high secs. Freighters are broken, please balance it CCP. High sec freighter griefing has to stop. Interesting terms... "player killers" and "hauler community". Im surprised you didnt just go ahead and call the player killers "terrorists" while you're at it. Bush would be proud of you. Anyway, I think the current trend of Eve becoming more and more protective of the isk grinders is worrying. The problem is that if Eve becomes too much like WoW in that regard, it wont have anything left to distinguish itself from other games on the market. Almost all other games are isk grinding machines where players extend their e-peens with isk and stuff. I really dont see why Eve should go the same way as everybody else. It must be much better to keep a game original and hardcore than make it a clone of everything else. I dont see why you guys who dont like being unsafe just pick another game which has pvp flags, "you cant do that" message boxes, 100% safe zones and friendly npc's giving you quests and a warm shoulder to cry on when things go bad. Please allow Eve to continue to be unforgiving for the players who like that. You want all space above 0.4 to be completely safe so you can just play the game afk if you like? Suiciders make the game a lot more interesting. I think you under astimate the amount of people who are willing to have limited PvP expriance and over astimate the number of those that want 100% PvP. I think a lot of people who joined eve wanted a place where can do there thing mostly safe (mission running, mining, trading) while not lsing every edge over people in low sec/0.0, i mean there is a reason a big part of eve is in high sec and i'm quite sure that it's not becuse we haven't figure how to find 0.0. It does look like CCP think that the safty o high sec was to much and reduced the safty/profit over the last few months we will see over the next few months if this have weaken the player base or strengthen it. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:09:00 - [293] Originally by: hybridundertaker i strictly endorse freighter gankage even in npc corps in high sec. who said there should be ways to be invulnerable from player attacks? Hey come on now, its not fun to be killed. So lets all just grind isk and rejoice forever over how much fun it is to collect isk. People dont know what they want. When they have their Navy Raven and tech 99 modules, I bet they will come here and post about how boring Eve is because nothing ever happens and the npc's are simply not a challenge. Go figure. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Ihar Enda Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:15:00 - [294] Do not haul more than 1-2 bil worth of cargo. There, you're safe from high sec attacks, unless it's for revange. Stop the whining please.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.06 12:27:00 - [295] Tbh this whole highsec, lowsec and nosec is completly out of balance. I dare you to say lowsec or nosec is more dangerous than jita 4-4 station. Try ratting in lowsec or using a hulk in highsec, have fun. Lets be honest, the true carebears live in 0.0. There is absolutly nothing that can happen to you in some remote system of your alliance that has a average playercount of 0.5 players a day. You see a hostile in local? Warp to pos or safespot and cloak. Its 100% safe. However jita 4-4, let me tell you that one gives me the shivers if im in anything but a worthless or heavily tanked ship. Back on topic, the only thing that really bothers me about this is that freighter runs in highsec are more dangerous than lowsec. In lowsec you can just get a fleet of 30 BS and just blast anyone hanging around at a gate that you think might be a spy, someone scans your freighter? Blast him. Afraid of suicide gangs? Just get a bigger gang or just jump in a few freaking carriers and provide some serious support. And even if someone manages to kill your freighter, they need a bigger gang to be able to loot it cause you dont have to wait till you vaporise that neutral freighter that closes in on your wreck. Whatever you tell people to do in highsec, it offers less protection than the measures you could undertake in lowsec, and thats wrong.
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.06 13:38:00 - [296] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Can you prove eVe is not, will not and will never aimed to attract as many players as possible? Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Wait, I do not get this part. Are you saying you love losing? Or are you saying the playerbase should enjoy losing because it is good for the community, the game and the business? The design of the game speaks for itself. If you wanted to attract the maximum number of subscribers, would you produce a game like EVE, or a game more like WoW? The simple fact that eve is not sharded places limits on the number of players who can co-exist, before you even consider any differences in gameplay. Generally, people don't enjoy losing things. The fear of loss, however, can be a very powerful emotion, and eve exploits it more than any other game I can think of. No matter how rich or powerful you are, it is possible to lose the work of hours, days, weeks or even months in a matter of moments. For many of eve's subscribers, I believe that this is what makes the game so compelling. CCP tamper with it at their peril. ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Belisaurius	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:20:00 - [297] I'm quite neutral on this. While I must admit a sneaking admiration for the D2 killers, the original poster seems like a decent guy who seems like a random victim and is a lot more coherent than I would have been given similar circumstances. Not speaking as a freighter owner, but would one safer way around the problem would be for freighters to travel in mini-convoys of 2 or 3 freighters carrying at most 50% of their volume with cargo. If one goes down to suicide Domis the others can scoop the cans. Sound feasible?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:38:00 - [298] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro The design of the game speaks for itself. If you wanted to attract the maximum number of subscribers, would you produce a game like EVE, or a game more like WoW? The simple fact that eve is not sharded places limits on the number of players who can co-exist, before you even consider any differences in gameplay. Generally, people don't enjoy losing things. The fear of loss, however, can be a very powerful emotion, and eve exploits it more than any other game I can think of. No matter how rich or powerful you are, it is possible to lose the work of hours, days, weeks or even months in a matter of moments. For many of eve's subscribers, I believe that this is what makes the game so compelling. CCP tamper with it at their peril. If I wanted to make a fun game for all audience of different market segments, it would be an eVe and WoW hybrid game like StarCraft Online (SCO). A game does not need to be hardcore or softcore to appeal to everybody. A game can be parts of different niches to appeal the mass market. What design of eVe is not meant to attract more young bloods into eVe? eVe was boring without space dungeons and the Devs gave us dungeons with bosses to kill. eVe was also lacking without toons to /dance around and the Devs will be giving us interactive toons in one of the major content patches soon. What else in eVe is not meant to attact more players? Please list them so the Devs can improve the game. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Drilla Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.06 17:08:00 - [299] This is so easily fixable it's laughable. Remove insurance payouts from ships popped by empire sentryguns and/or concord - voila it's not profitable anymore.
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:12:00 - [300] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What else in eVe is not meant to attact more players? Please list them so the Devs can improve the game. Well, I imagine that having to wait for months to use many of the more appealing ships and modules puts off a great deal of younger players. To a younger person, that can seem a lot longer. On the other hand, it can give those players who wait a much greater feeling of prestige and satisfaction when they finally gain the ability to use them. Then the is the sheer complexity of the game. Very few players completely understand every aspect of eve, and certainly no-one who's on a 14-day trial. Finally, the fact that eve is persistent has the potential to put off many newcomers, because people who have been playing for 4 years have an enormous head-start over them. From what I hear on these forums, it is becoming increasingly difficult to set up a corp in 0.0 unless you can persuade quite a few capital ship pilots to join. So, in short, I believe that the core features and principles that distinguish eve from other games are those that are most likely to put off newcomers. However, to a minority of people, they make it all the more appealing. Just as well, because it is doubtful that eve could handle the same number of subscribers as many of the more popular games. ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:13:00 - [301] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 06/05/2007 18:14:27 double post ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:18:00 - [302] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 06/05/2007 18:14:40 triple post ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:23:00 - [303] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro ... So new toons had 30k SP and it was too slow and boring for new player experience. Guess what, CCP the best game developers ever and eVe the best game ever made eVe more accessible for new players by giving new toons 800k SP. Maybe in one or two years time, CCP would give them 2M SP starting toons. T2 economy was so expensive that equipment and ship were no accessible to the "common" players. So what did the the best game developers ever and eVe the best game ever do? The Devs made T2 rock bottom cheap. I don't know, maybe eVe is not supposed to be as harsh as the "special" community would think. The way I see it, eVe is turning for the better. Attracting more players, building up a fanbois base, etc. are all positive elements for the game. Please stop making eVe for the elites. This thread is about imbalance and problems faced by the hauling community. We are griefed in high sec empire and CCP needs to put a stop to this lame play. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:30:00 - [304] So has all trade stopped yet ?
Almente	Posted - 2007.05.06 19:07:00 - [305] Hi Dolika, I don't like to read all the posts above, just want to tell you what I've seen your freigther cargo scan on eve-files.com =) So guys, who did it was stupid enough to post it right on the place, where everybody could see it - it was on the left session, where you could see all last added pictures =) And your freigther was blown up after the post, where the guy warned everybody about they desire to pop some freighters. So... Take some conclusions DUDE!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:02:00 - [306] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: SiJira can we all agree on one thing ? concord jams you - so you arent meant to keep attacking once the concord force arrives - drones bypassing this ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE agreed? -------------- -------- ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:11:00 - [307] All trade has not stopped yet but if freighter gankage continues and i see no reason why it would stop other than CCP fixing the freighters it most certainly will slow down a LOT. All tade will probably never stop but as a result price will increase and availability will decrease. Those hurting the most will be the average players who don't have isk to throw around to fit their ships in order to have fun in EvE A screenie of my cargo? Have you got a linky?
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:24:00 - [308] You know, the more I read and think about this, the more I see some possible solutions that really won't hurt anybody. And I will alter my stance on some of them being acceptable. I would accept some of the following. 1. Redesign of the freighter to give it 2 to 4 low slots, but mixed with a reduction of cargo capacity, so that filling all the low slots with T2 expanders will result in the same capacity as before the change. Though this will have a negative impact on travel time, so add an additional bonus to the ship that negates this problem. Also, because fitting a damage control will cause such an absurd increase in structural points, the base level will have to be reduced by some amount, perhaps 20%. 2. Give the freighters a bonus to structural resists, maybe 3-4% across the board per level of freighter skill.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:24:00 - [309] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro ... So new toons had 30k SP and it was too slow and boring for new player experience. Guess what, CCP the best game developers ever and eVe the best game ever made eVe more accessible for new players by giving new toons 800k SP. Maybe in one or two years time, CCP would give them 2M SP starting toons. T2 economy was so expensive that equipment and ship were no accessible to the "common" players. So what did the the best game developers ever and eVe the best game ever do? The Devs made T2 rock bottom cheap. I don't know, maybe eVe is not supposed to be as harsh as the "special" community would think. The way I see it, eVe is turning for the better. Attracting more players, building up a fanbois base, etc. are all positive elements for the game. Please stop making eVe for the elites. This thread is about imbalance and problems faced by the hauling community. We are griefed in high sec empire and CCP needs to put a stop to this lame play. Maybe this is just me, but the opinion of someone who bought their character from someone else, and therefore did not work for jack squat, has no right to have an opinion on anything. Thanks for stopping by.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:54:00 - [310] Originally by: Belisaurius Not speaking as a freighter owner, but would one safer way around the problem would be for freighters to travel in mini-convoys of 2 or 3 freighters carrying at most 50% of their volume with cargo. If one goes down to suicide Domis the others can scoop the cans. Sound feasible? Dont let this one drown guys, its the single best(well actually the only that would work) idea i have yet read in this thread about what a freighterpilot can actually do to prevent loosing his cargo. Im not a freighterpilot, but can freighters exchance cargo in space now that they can loot freighterwrecks? If you deny the suiciders the loot they have no reason to kill you. Now i dont say this does anything for the solo freighter pilots, but this is a mmorpg after all, and some solutions to problems we have are naturally going to be based on a team approach. Ofc for this to work the freighter must be able to hand its cargo to its partner before getting blown up, otherwise its just gonna be about who scoops the loot the fastest(assuming the suicide gang will also have their freighter at the scene). This has the added benefit that you loose only your ship and nothing of your cargo, and most importantly the suicide gankers get absolutly nothing. P.S. And for the naysayers saying they dont want to sacrifice cargospace, haulers also have to sacrifice cargospace in order to make travelling more secure for them.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:32:00 - [311] Originally by: Venkul Mul It is not a criminal flag, it is an aggression flag. It is one of the standard trick used against miners by people thealing jetcans. Thief steal jetcan in noobship, miner attack him with drones, peple in the same corp and ganged with him jump in and kill the miner without CONCORD reacting. I know I said I was done with this thread, but this is an area in which I am quite good, given that I am a part time ore thief and high sec ganker. Let's go over the basics: Ore thief steals ore. He gets flagged to the owner of the can and the owner's whole corp unless the owner is in an NPC corp. If the owner of the can shoots at the ore thief, the ore thief and he alone can shoot back at the owner. That is, no one else can interfere on the ore thief's behalf. It's the same with wrecks. A freighter gets popped. The escorts guarding the wrecks can shoot anyone stealing from the wreck. Those that get shot at can shoot back, but anyone who isn't fired upon cannot shoot at the guards. This means that even if there are 10 battleships, all stealing from the wreck, the guards can finish them off one at a time without any possible interference from any of the others. Not even if they are all in the same corp or ganged. Hope that clears that up, as there has been some serious confusion regarding flagging rules in this thread. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:40:00 - [312] Edited by: Siege on 06/05/2007 22:38:00 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Please stop making eVe for the elites. This thread is about imbalance and problems faced by the hauling community. We are griefed in high sec empire and CCP needs to put a stop to this lame play. Holy Smokes, the person complaining that their freighter being too vulnerable is using THIS reason? Asking for freighters to be given special consideration is pandering to the elites of the manufacturing/hauling areas of the game. If you want to make the game MORE accessible to new players, then you would probably want to give freighters a big nerf. The imbalance isn't in the fact that freighters are now something to target, the imbalance is in how much more capable freighters are at their job than any other hauler. That is what makes them so lucrative to target. So, by your logic, maybe they should just get nerfed to the point that it's not profitable anymore to even blow them up. Of course, this isn't an issue for you anymore, as I expect folks to war-dec the corporation that you're in now just to get at that freighter.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:05:00 - [313] Edited by: SiJira on 07/05/2007 00:01:24 Originally by: Siege the imbalance is in how much more capable freighters are at their job than any other hauler. That is what makes them so lucrative to target. wtf ? it takes loads of skills to fly and loads of isk to buy or make (and skills if you wanna make it) why shouldnt it be better than several ITERON V's ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:13:00 - [314] Did the title get changed? This thread seems to get more ridiculous the more I read it. Until I get ganked for a freighter full of trit, I'm not complaining Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting!
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:17:00 - [315] I think it'd be awesome if T2 prices etc went back up and corps could make money with PvP players guarding / escorting ships through empire. Certainly with the old T2 prices before invention, I'm sure those T2 sellers would have more than afforded guards Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:23:00 - [316] Originally by: heheheh So has all trade stopped yet ? nope _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Almente	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:23:00 - [317] Edited by: Almente on 07/05/2007 00:20:08 Originally by: Dolika A screenie of my cargo? Have you got a linky? Dolika, you are a the lucky one, thought I lost it, but I found it in my corp chat logs - I just worned our corp guys: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0705/2007.05.01.19.26.04.jpg So... What do you think about it?
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.07 02:20:00 - [318] Originally by: SiJira Edited by: SiJira on 07/05/2007 00:01:24 Originally by: Siege the imbalance is in how much more capable freighters are at their job than any other hauler. That is what makes them so lucrative to target. wtf ? it takes loads of skills to fly and loads of isk to buy or make (and skills if you wanna make it) why shouldnt it be better than several ITERON V's ? My major point was that you can't use the excuse of sticking up for new players, and removing elitism from the game, in this particular arguement. Freighters ARE elitism, and overpower regular haulers in business of hauling as much as a faction Battleship overpowers a T1 Cruiser. After all "it takes loads of skills to fly and loads of isk to buy or make (and skills if you wanna make it) why shouldnt it be better than several ITERON V's?"
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:19:00 - [319] Originally by: Siege Originally by: SiJira Edited by: SiJira on 07/05/2007 00:01:24 Originally by: Siege the imbalance is in how much more capable freighters are at their job than any other hauler. That is what makes them so lucrative to target. wtf ? it takes loads of skills to fly and loads of isk to buy or make (and skills if you wanna make it) why shouldnt it be better than several ITERON V's ? My major point was that you can't use the excuse of sticking up for new players, and removing elitism from the game, in this particular arguement. Freighters ARE elitism, and overpower regular haulers in business of hauling as much as a faction Battleship overpowers a T1 Cruiser. After all "it takes loads of skills to fly and loads of isk to buy or make (and skills if you wanna make it) why shouldnt it be better than several ITERON V's?" sure is - if you work for it you deserve to fly it, its not an imbalance its a reward - just like level 4 missions compared to level 1 ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:59:00 - [320] A single character can protect a freighter; as the only real way to kill them is using drones that keep shooting after CONCORD has jammed the attacking ships, a BS flying tandem with the freighter sporting 8 large smartbombs can clear the drones. You may lose the BS should some neutral be nearby, but you'll have saved the freighter.
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 04:20:00 - [321] Originally by: Maya Rkell Well, what then about the independent who loses two freighters full of gear Let us know when that happens. If you just came through a .5 chokepoint with a hold full of t2 stuff, you're not "unaligned" and you're not "independent." If t2 prices get higher because of interdiction then good, that's capitalism in action. It's a BUSINESS. If you profit from a business then you must be prepared to take losses from that business. There is no business in the world with guaranteed income and no loss. Luckily this is a virtual world, if you lose 4 billion, your kids dont go hungry, your wife doesn't leave you, and they dont repossess your house. You can cry a little, blow your nose and go back to makin fat stacks of isk that puts a big sloppy grin on your face. You make 100 freighter runs, lose 2, boohoo you lost %2 of your profit. There is no thrill of victory without the occaisional defeat.
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 04:34:00 - [322] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Please stop making eVe for the elites. This thread is about imbalance and problems faced by the hauling community. People who drive freighters full of T2 stuff from 0.0 to sell it in Empire ARE the elite, ya bloodclot. Its not some carebear hauling his weekly load of Veld, its a freaking alliance freighter alt who got their t2 product shipment popped. It's like Bill Gates getting robbed driving through Harlem, you're like "oh poor hauling community." This is like the whole Privateers whinage. 4/5 of their wardec was 0.0 alliances but nooooooo, Privateers is griefers. Apparently now 0.0 residents are all considered "poor hauling community" and helpless carebears who need CCP to protect them.
Algorithm 5 Caldari Hakata Group Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 05:37:00 - [323] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Jim McGregor Im not sure, but doesnt it take concord longer to show up in 0.5 than in 1.0? Yeah they do. A very long time in some cases, as opposed to <5 seconds in 1.0. I'm all for the 'Eve is a freeform game' bit, but this has got to be stopped. Why the hell did they make freighters drop cargo? What did that solve? If meant if a freighter got ganked, the owner had no chance to recover the contents later. But this is easily fixed, for the most part. Ship the stuff inside general freight containers. The freight containers drop into space, and then the only thing that can loot it is ANOTHER freighter (I believe anyways, could be wrong). Of course, anyone that can assemble a 15 man suicide gang shouldn't have trouble assembling freighter support. But for low sec and 0.0 ganks, you should have a chance to recover the stuff I guess.
Honor Shadowsong	Posted - 2007.05.07 06:20:00 - [324] Dolika, my condolences on your loss. Losing a ship is never a light thing. I fly a freighter to help out some friends who need minerals. It takes a whole day to fill 3 station cans of Trit after a week of buying. It is intensly boring, made worthwhile because I am helping out my High Space Only industrial corp and friends. If my freighter got ganked I would have to wonder again why I believed CCP when they invited me to come to their game after Earth and Beyond died. They specifically told me I did NOT have to engage in pvp to play. In many ways this game if fun only because of the people I play with and the occasional mission. If freighter ganking, or unrestrained high space pvp without a war declaration is the future of EVE I will have to once again reasses why I play this. I used to have 3 accounts, I'm down to 1. I find your loss very disturbing and hope you are mistaken and it does not become a common event. Once again, my condolences.
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:19:00 - [325] Edited by: Mortania on 07/05/2007 08:17:27 Edited by: Mortania on 07/05/2007 08:16:33 Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Please stop making eVe for the elites. This thread is about imbalance and problems faced by the hauling community. Let us know when that happens. If you just came through a .5 chokepoint with a hold full of t2 stuff, you're not "unaligned" and you're not "independent." If t2 prices get higher because of interdiction then good, that's capitalism in action. It's a BUSINESS. If you profit from a business then you must be prepared to take losses from that business. There is no business in the world with guaranteed income and no loss. Luckily this is a virtual world, if you lose 4 billion, your kids dont go hungry, your wife doesn't leave you, and they dont repossess your house. You can cry a little, blow your nose and go back to makin fat stacks of isk that puts a big sloppy grin on your face. You make 100 freighter runs, lose 2, boohoo you lost %2 of your profit. There is no thrill of victory without the occaisional defeat. You are discounting the cost of the freighters, another 2B. And you are counting everything the freighter carries as profit, which is *******s. With profits running on T2 down as they are they'll reach 10% before too long (better than the sub 10% of T1, I'll grant you). A full loss of a frieghter represents 10 freighter runs each not including the cost of the freighter. With the reported sales gross at 2-4 billion that puts the profit at about 200-400M. 2 of these in 100, represents another 5-10 runs of loss. Putting your 2 runs in 100 at 25-30 runs lost or 25-30% lost for those 2 runs. 1/4 to 1/3 of profit lost for only 2 in 100 total freighter losses. Let's calc the other side, shall we? 15 domis at 5-15M lost (after insurance and relooting your stuff that doesn't go boom) = 75-225M lost per pop. Let's assume most people are "smart" and only carry 2B in the ship + 1B for the ship, that's 3B lost for 225M. AND, now with droppable loot, that 225M loss could be a 2B gain. Yeah, yeah, 15 people get together, that's a TON of coordination for an alliance like PA or D2 or BoB, 0utbreak, or any other would-be gank squad. That must take at least 5-10 minutes of time on Vent to accomplish. Of course, one could spend 30 seconds posting to the forums and eliminate that time. Again, let's look at the flip side... Freighter pilot on Vent: "Hey guys, anyone want to escort me from Yulai to Jita?" ... "Guys? C'mon, there's a 1 in 50 chance that you'll spot a big gank fleet."... "I guess everyone is off in 0.0 actually getting their pew pew on, eh?" Seriously, have you ever ONE TIME done any sort of industrial activity? ---
Cipher7 Keepers of the Holy Bagel SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:57:00 - [326] Originally by: Mortania You are discounting the cost of the freighters, another 2B. And you are counting everything the freighter carries as profit, which is *****s. With profits running on T2 down as they are they'll reach 10% before too long (better than the sub 10% of T1, I'll grant you). A full loss of a frieghter represents 10 freighter runs each not including the cost of the freighter. With the reported sales gross at 2-4 billion that puts the profit at about 200-400M. 2 of these in 100, represents another 5-10 runs of loss. Putting your 2 runs in 100 at 25-30 runs lost or 25-30% lost for those 2 runs. 1/4 to 1/3 of profit lost for only 2 in 100 total freighter losses. Let's calc the other side, shall we? 15 domis at 5-15M lost (after insurance and relooting your stuff that doesn't go boom) = 75-225M lost per pop. Let's assume most people are "smart" and only carry 2B in the ship + 1B for the ship, that's 3B lost for 225M. AND, now with droppable loot, that 225M loss could be a 2B gain. Yeah, yeah, 15 people get together, that's a TON of coordination for an alliance like PA or D2 or BoB, 0utbreak, or any other would-be gank squad. That must take at least 5-10 minutes of time on Vent to accomplish. Of course, one could spend 30 seconds posting to the forums and eliminate that time. Again, let's look at the flip side... Freighter pilot on Vent: "Hey guys, anyone want to escort me from Yulai to Jita?" ... "Guys? C'mon, there's a 1 in 50 chance that you'll spot a big gank fleet."... "I guess everyone is off in 0.0 actually getting their pew pew on, eh?" Seriously, have you ever ONE TIME done any sort of industrial activity? This is probably the only decent argument I've encountered so far. Your argument is mitigated by two factors. The time value of gathering intel on freighter runs, its almost like that Istvaan Shogatsu guy who sat there for months before pulling off his heist. How many man hours did they put in gathering intel? And secondly gathering 15 domi pilots together in 1 place and sitting at a gate for god knows how many hours waiting for this freighter to come through. And how many things can go wrong? 1) Freighter pilot might actually have a scout - "gee what are these 15 domis doing at the gate?" 2) The loot might implode "2564545556454747675 m3 of Zydrine destroyed" 3) Freighter pilot might decide to change his schedule. "Gee I think I'll go bowling tonight after all with Fred" Whoops there goes your xxx man-hours of intel and planning. You break any of the links on this chain of events, nobody gets ganked, nobody gets paid, nobody gets reimbursed. What are the % chance that each such operation will be successful? I'll wager a guess, around %40, probably alot lower now that its a forum topic, now freighter pilots will be like "hmm I better break up my schedule" so instead of making your run tuesday you'll make it wednesday. And once again, if you are bringing stuff out of 0.0, you are a combatant. How does it feel to lose 6 bil worth of freighter + cargo? Prolly the same way it feels to lose a 30 bil dread. Stop the presses, there's a possibility of losing billions in Eve Online. As for industrial activity, yeah I mine to relax. No-one is saying that losing 6 bil is fun. Its not. But that's what makes Eve Eve, that it's meaningful** the best games/movies/media/songs in the world are ones that make you FEEL something. When you watch Saving Private Ryan or Hotel Rwanda, or listen a great track like Flight of the Valkyries, it makes you feel something, you feel sorrow, pain, joy, it makes you want to fly, or get down on your knees and weep. Its the same with great games. If I die in WoW I don't give a schit. If I win I don't give a schit. It's meaningless. In Eve when I take a hauler full of a few hundred mil of stuff, my hands are shaking, I'm checking maps, I'm reading bios, I'm running scared, I love the sensation of fear. Thats what makes Eve a great piece of media.
R0ze Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:36:00 - [327] Originally by: Cipher7 Its the same with great games. If I die in WoW I don't give a schit. If I win I don't give a schit. It's meaningless. In Eve when I take a hauler full of a few hundred mil of stuff, my hands are shaking, I'm checking maps, I'm reading bios, I'm running scared, I love the sensation of fear. Thats what makes Eve a great piece of media. +1
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:48:00 - [328] Damn touchy subject here: But I jumped 11 pages... The griefers are going to say "Risk Vs Reward" And the Devs are going to say "In the game mechanics" And the frieghter pilots get the shaft. Poor design CCP, If your going to make a ship like that, drop all its loot, then it should have had defenses. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:51:00 - [329] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Venkul Mul It is not a criminal flag, it is an aggression flag. It is one of the standard trick used against miners by people thealing jetcans. Thief steal jetcan in noobship, miner attack him with drones, peple in the same corp and ganged with him jump in and kill the miner without CONCORD reacting. I know I said I was done with this thread, but this is an area in which I am quite good, given that I am a part time ore thief and high sec ganker. Let's go over the basics: Ore thief steals ore. He gets flagged to the owner of the can and the owner's whole corp unless the owner is in an NPC corp. If the owner of the can shoots at the ore thief, the ore thief and he alone can shoot back at the owner. That is, no one else can interfere on the ore thief's behalf. It's the same with wrecks. A freighter gets popped. The escorts guarding the wrecks can shoot anyone stealing from the wreck. Those that get shot at can shoot back, but anyone who isn't fired upon cannot shoot at the guards. This means that even if there are 10 battleships, all stealing from the wreck, the guards can finish them off one at a time without any possible interference from any of the others. Not even if they are all in the same corp or ganged. Hope that clears that up, as there has been some serious confusion regarding flagging rules in this thread. /Ki I bow to the expert and hope someday CCP will put up a decent guide to flagging. TY for the rule clarification.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:08:00 - [330] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Mortania You are discounting the cost of the freighters, another 2B. .... This is probably the only decent argument I've encountered so far. Your argument is mitigated by two factors. The time value of gathering intel on freighter runs, its almost like that Istvaan Shogatsu guy who sat there for months before pulling off his heist. How many man hours did they put in gathering intel? And secondly gathering 15 domi pilots together in 1 place and sitting at a gate for god knows how many hours waiting for this freighter to come through. Your argument is valid if you assume 1 thing. The gankers want a specific target. If for them any freighter with sufficent loot is a valid target (and from the post of the OP it seem that was the case, as she say she isn't the alt of a 0.0 alliance member, and wasn't coming from 0.0) they only need to haunt a system with sufficent freighter traffic to get a target in relatively short time. On a side note: from what I read most of the damage is done by the drones, not the ships, so what make the Myrmidion not usable? To short life aspectancy under CONCORD onslaught?
Miusho Hyrule Corp	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:30:00 - [331] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Ki An Combat fitted escorts safe the universe... erm freighter Care to elaborate? Please be specific. Didn't you read the thread? I'll go over it again: You keep two combat fitted escorts with you when moving a freighter through high sec. Their official job starts when the freighter is popped. They then guard the wreck so that noone can loot it, until haulers can be mobilized to pick up what survived. The unofficial, but more efficient job the escorts have is to dissuade any suicide gank on the freighter at all. After all, the suicide gankers know the flagging rules of high sec just as well as the freighter pilot, and they will know that there will be two tough opponents to take on for any ship seeking to loot the wreck. This rules out brining a freighter of their own, as it would be popped. They also know that the two escorts can pick and chose which thieves to agress, as they can shoot the thieves, but the thieves can't shoot back untill being shot. This is very simple stuff, and it is the one true solution to this 'problem' that is already in game. The only problem with it is that it doesn't work if the freighter is in an NPC corp, but that is the pilot's problem, and not CCP's or the rest of ours. /Ki Only freighters can take from a freighter wreck right? (read that in the patch notes a while ago) so then the freighter pilot would need a army to gank the freighter that comes to get his stuff...
Ha'Uler	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:51:00 - [332] Congratulations, your excessive whining has gotten this nerfed on Singularity. CONCORD now kills drones and their damage ignores resistances. Highsec is absolutely, perfectly safe now.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:53:00 - [333] The real solution in terms of escorts (if you were to go that way) is of course not to bother protecting the wreck, but just announcing clearly and in advance that they are there to destroy the wreck if the freighter gets popped. That way the Domi ganksquad will face a choice, if they go ahead and gank the freighter, they run the very real risk of ending up completely emptyhanded because the escorts will destroy their loot. signature removed - please contact us to find out why (include the URL of your sig) - Jacques([email protected])
Andreas Kallesoee Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:43:00 - [334] Give the freighter pilots a choise of fitting a huge nuke in their cargo taking up... lets say 50K m3 and that insures that everything in the hold blows up if you are popped
Lothendra Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:55:00 - [335] Apologies if it's already been brought up in the last 12 pages of rabble, but here is my suggestion: Give freighter 1 low slot. Let them fit damage control module only. If they are attacked while flying AFK then they aren't going to be around to turn it on and get what they deserve, if they are present during the attack, they can turn it on and possibly escape with heavy structural damage. Attackers end up with dead battleships and sec hit. Victim ends up with one badly wrecked freighter with a very large ISK repair bill. <rabble> On another thought... maybe this game has "jumped the shark" and is now in decline. I think things were better when a battleship was THE thing to aspire to. Now they are disposable. How long before we see spaceships the size of frickin' planets eating each other up? OR galaxies even? "ZOMGLOLWTF SOME N00B WARPED INTO MY GALAXY AND SCOOPED UP ELEVENTY DOZEN STAR SYSTEMS!!11" </rabble>
Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:56:00 - [336] Originally by: Ki An I know I said I was done with this thread, but this is an area in which I am quite good, given that I am a part time ore thief and high sec ganker. Let's go over the basics: Ore thief steals ore. He gets flagged to the owner of the can and the owner's whole corp unless the owner is in an NPC corp. If the owner of the can shoots at the ore thief, the ore thief and he alone can shoot back at the owner. That is, no one else can interfere on the ore thief's behalf. It's the same with wrecks. A freighter gets popped. The escorts guarding the wrecks can shoot anyone stealing from the wreck. Those that get shot at can shoot back, but anyone who isn't fired upon cannot shoot at the guards. This means that even if there are 10 battleships, all stealing from the wreck, the guards can finish them off one at a time without any possible interference from any of the others. Not even if they are all in the same corp or ganged. I used to steal from macrominers a lot. Guess what they used to steal back their ore? A shuttle. Freighter gankers will do the same, and if one of your two gankathron steal back he will be promptly WTFBBQed by the backup team of the gankers. Your idea just doesn't work.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 13:09:00 - [337] Originally by: Ha'Uler Congratulations, your excessive whining has gotten this nerfed on Singularity. CONCORD now kills drones and their damage ignores resistances. Highsec is absolutely, perfectly safe now. It is the same upgrade that CCP has done for the NPC AI in missions, so I dubt that is was made specifically in reaction to this and similar threads. It is some week that NPC kill drones, it was time CONCORD upgraded too.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.07 13:14:00 - [338] Originally by: Andreas Kallesoee Give the freighter pilots a choise of fitting a huge nuke in their cargo taking up... lets say 50K m3 and that insures that everything in the hold blows up if you are popped I like that idea. If I am to lose all assets.. and I would.. as at this stage in my game I can not afford to lose the ships I fly, I would greatly enjoy being at ground zero watching all around me explode with me.. That would make starting over well worth it.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.07 13:57:00 - [339] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 07/05/2007 14:06:15 In response to a "don't remove insurance from Concordokkened ships" posting: Originally by: Mecinia Lua I don't see how it would discourage hi sec ganking. Its basically asking those of your viewpoint to accept the same rule you are saying the freighter pilots have to accept. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. pwned -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.07 14:08:00 - [340] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 07/05/2007 14:05:11 Originally by: Lubomir Penev I used to steal from macrominers a lot. Guess what they used to steal back their ore? A shuttle. Hm ... so they stole back their ore in a shuttle before you could get a ship in to transport it off? Thats either VERY smart macros, or omfg maybe no macro at all?? -- CCP: PLEASE fix the forum software - thanks.
Fubarski Caldari Centauri Project	Posted - 2007.05.07 15:19:00 - [341] If you haven't seen the video "Karma" by Outbreak, I suggest you do so before crying "OMG NERF IT". It displays the perfect reason why this should be allowed. Fubarski
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.07 15:21:00 - [342] This thread really has me - I really don't understand why people just don't want to 'play the game' and not try to change it all the time! Anyway - read the whole thread and contributed before..... I fly a Freighter too sometimes so it was of interest. I remember when they were introduced - they were brought in to carry Outpost Eggs - nothing more. However, we can use them for other things. Freighters have always been 'gankable' - just like anything else. The issue was that they were stopped from dropping loot because of the problems that caused - now that has been rectified - again, nothing has changed. Anyone who used freighters to carry expensive stuff in order to avoid being ganked was quite possibly exploiting - now that's been fixed too. "Trade will die" - rubbish! Trade will actually flourish more. What will be made more difficult, however, is the ability to take everything to Jita in big lumps - so trading will be more decentralised - good in so many ways. EVE is all about competition - it really does pit players against other players. I play it because I love it. I love it because what I do has meaning, has results and has risk for the reward. Enjoy it - embrace it - and for goodness sake PLAY it - as it is meant to be played. Don't cheat - don't 'metagame' (a word for cheats to try and justify cheating) - pit your wits against other people in a game that tests you in a fictional environment where you can try things out that don't affect RL - don't let the two touch.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 16:18:00 - [343] Originally by: Marcus Tedric This thread really has me - I really don't understand why people just don't want to 'play the game' and not try to change it all the time! Anyway - read the whole thread and contributed before..... I fly a Freighter too sometimes so it was of interest. I remember when they were introduced - they were brought in to carry Outpost Eggs - nothing more. However, we can use them for other things. Freighters have always been 'gankable' - just like anything else. The issue was that they were stopped from dropping loot because of the problems that caused - now that has been rectified - again, nothing has changed. Anyone who used freighters to carry expensive stuff in order to avoid being ganked was quite possibly exploiting - now that's been fixed too. "Trade will die" - rubbish! Trade will actually flourish more. What will be made more difficult, however, is the ability to take everything to Jita in big lumps - so trading will be more decentralised - good in so many ways. EVE is all about competition - it really does pit players against other players. I play it because I love it. I love it because what I do has meaning, has results and has risk for the reward. Enjoy it - embrace it - and for goodness sake PLAY it - as it is meant to be played. Don't cheat - don't 'metagame' (a word for cheats to try and justify cheating) - pit your wits against other people in a game that tests you in a fictional environment where you can try things out that don't affect RL - don't let the two touch. True words. Sadly doomed to sink into the pit of petulance. A small fieldmouse - squeeking against the huricanes din of carebear crescendos. Trade profit will be put into the hands of the little man. Trade will be put in the hands of the many. Gank away my friends - gank away. SKUNK
Anna Grahm Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.07 17:24:00 - [344] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Mextor i can't be a$$ed to read all this, requires effort(read the corp name), but after reading some of this, freighters should now be given the ability to tank, but with special Freighter armor/shield mod, that can only be used on freighters and only put in Freighter slots, so ppl can't use expanders and the like to make the freighter haul more. Its prolly been said already but i'm saying it again. Freighters do have the ability to tank. /Ki You sound like the kind of **** that would suggest that homosexuals do have the "right" to marry, but they just have to marry someone they have no romantic interest in or love for. I am NOT an alt!
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 17:53:00 - [345] Originally by: Marquis Dean Originally by: Blind Man meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. Then why were PRVTR nerfed? Privateers ruined the balance of PvP in Empire. Empire was supposed to be "mostly safe". Privateers made it "mostly unsafe". CCP made changes to move Empire back into the "mostly safe" range. Unless you're a freighter pilot that is.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.07 21:10:00 - [346] Originally by: Anna Grahm You sound like the kind of ** that would suggest that homosexuals do have the "right" to marry, but they just have to marry someone they have no romantic interest in or love for. Uhm... are you calling me a *-basher, or are you just being stupid? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Dust Rocket	Posted - 2007.05.07 22:29:00 - [347] Ok lets say i have 100 items i have 2 escorts. Now Poof goes my freighter. And my 2 escorts start working(2 cause Ki sayed its inaff). In this point, (lets say i was lucky) i already lost 40% of my things. Warps in NPC shuttle. Flips one can. Gets blasted. Aproaches hauler,(cause can is shuttle owners now) scoops. ETC. U get the point (i hope). So whats the use of my escorts, they pop shuttles? How u counter this Ki or u just call me bear. PS. and yeah i stoped reading at page 6 cause it is noncense. Sry my english
Mac Creagors	Posted - 2007.05.07 22:42:00 - [348] Dolika is right this is the end of empire trading and people who do " high sec kamikazi attacks" should try open there brain's or something. It's you who pay in the loong run if you start popping frieghters in empire.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.07 22:59:00 - [349] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 07/05/2007 22:56:37 I think this is a good thing that freightor pilots can get ganked. Why? Firstly, to stop ******* freightor pilots like me running monopoly's and compeitive practices which squeeze the margins out of the little guys. I have done it, and I am pretty sure a lot of active traders have done it as well. Lets admit it, the sheer volume that can be carried makes it extreamly difficult for smaller, newer players to compeate in trading. I mean, gone are the days where you could just fill up a freightor with t2 gear from jita and afk it overnight to a hub near a warzone to resell. With freightors, the trading mentality is moving towards the superhub mentality. Some markets that used to be stocked now simply are not - there is no margin for little people to bother picking stuff up from obscure corners to bring back. Nothing is impossible, but now the bulk of trading will become more decentrelised, meaning that smaller, more agile traders will emerge. In a word - this is perhaps the best boost to getting new players into the trading aspect of eve. -- Billion Isk Mission
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.05.07 23:19:00 - [350] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 07/05/2007 23:21:57 Originally by: Siege Originally by: Maya Rkell Claiming ignorance of the near past is transparent. As I said.. And no, I don't flame. I happen to hold a viewpoint counter to that of your bias. And I'm not afraid to point out that it, unlike your argument, hangs together under critical analysis. So, then, what do you propose as a solution? Concord to destroy any attacking drones of offending ships. Very rapidly (about the time they target jam you). There's a reason - what I'd call an exploit if it were not only in CCP's power to call something such - why only a certain type of ship can pull off this type of attack, and that is wrong afaik. Cipher7, no, not everyone is involved in an ideology in this game, sorry. "If t2 prices get higher because of interdiction then good, that's capitalism in action." No, it's not. It's a inflation because of a deliberate design descision of CCP. "You make 100 freighter runs, lose 2, boohoo you lost %2 of your profit." Now this is just amusing. Hint: margin is not at all the same thing as total cost. 2 losses can wipe out many, many successful run's profit. Lord WarATron, except that that is, demonstably by past events not what happens. What keeps the smaller, newer players from competing is not freighters. It is the 1890's parallel production systems and the market order limits. It's a waste of time competing outside a narrow range of products, and the same factors have meant that there are no new hubs. The markets are shrinking because CCP insist on dealing the traders and sellers a bad hand again and again. Also, raw material hauling in freighters is something you overlook. //Maya
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.07 23:42:00 - [351] Originally by: Dust Rocket Ok lets say i have 100 items i have 2 escorts. Now Poof goes my freighter. And my 2 escorts start working(2 cause Ki sayed its inaff). In this point, (lets say i was lucky) i already lost 40% of my things. Warps in NPC shuttle. Flips one can. Gets blasted. Aproaches hauler,(cause can is shuttle owners now) scoops. ETC. U get the point (i hope). So whats the use of my escorts, they pop shuttles? How u counter this Ki or u just call me bear. PS. and yeah i stoped reading at page 6 cause it is noncense. Sry my english shrugs I dunno, use your own shuttle and flip it back? It's a good point, but it's hardly impossible to counter. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Anna Grahm Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.08 07:11:00 - [352] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Anna Grahm You sound like the kind of ** that would suggest that homosexuals do have the "right" to marry, but they just have to marry someone they have no romantic interest in or love for. Uhm... are you calling me a *-basher, or are you just being stupid? /Ki None of the above. Just pointing out that your "logic" is the same type used by those that deny rights to homosexuals. Just because there's a technicality wherein one may tank (do capsules "tank," too?) doesn't mean it can be done effectively or is something that should even have to be done. I am NOT an alt!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.08 07:30:00 - [353] Originally by: R0ze Originally by: Cipher7 Its the same with great games. If I die in WoW I don't give a schit. If I win I don't give a schit. It's meaningless. In Eve when I take a hauler full of a few hundred mil of stuff, my hands are shaking, I'm checking maps, I'm reading bios, I'm running scared, I love the sensation of fear. Thats what makes Eve a great piece of media. +1 Woah a sane post! this is getting out of hand! ISD raped my sig!
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 11:06:00 - [354] Ki An as much as he wants to advocate his style of play which just got a whole lot easier has never ever tried building something or hauled big cargo loads across empire so he has no idea what he's talking about when talking about flying with 2 protection BSs around safe empire during a NO WAR times. I strongly disagree with the idea of trade hubs being bad for small traders. Highsec Gankers are bad for small traders. I can buy 60 T2 cloaks and stick them into my hauler and fit quite some tank also but on gate someone will scan me and suicide a few cruisers on me and 300M i just spent on cloaks in Jita and was going to sell for 500M in Torrinos and Esa just went up in smoke. I could have only bought 5 but that would mean im using 10% of ships capacity. What a waste of space. considering im hauling back pyerite which is cheap 2 jumps away from Esa to Jita and sell it there i cannot haul with a BS to keep it safe. Current state of market is extremely good for small business people. Supply in hubs is great and prices near rock bottom so anyone who wants to be a trader can drive up to Jita. Buy stuff and haul it near a warzone and make a bundle of isk. The bulk sellers can sell their stuff and everyone knows where best deals can be made. Be it pvp end users or resellers they all meet in a stock market kind of market in trade hubs where supply and demand and nothing else balance the prices. That's capitalism at it's best. Freighter gankage has nothing to do with capitalism because capitalism is about trade. Besides when 15 domis attack a freighter that's not pvp because freighter has no means of defense or offense. Smaller regional markets are not well stocked because there is no demand. I could put everyting i got on market in Aclan or Gyng because markets there are not as good as the hub markets are. I have tried but it simply does not work. Took me months to sell 10 items of one kind at a price similar to Jita whereas in trade hubs thousands change hands daily. there is LOTS of margin for small traders to fill the gaps. Belive me i've been playing on the market since the start and i see a sea of small opportunities but since im frying bigger fish i dont have time to move 20M worth of stuff in a hauler for 6M profit for a 2 jump trip. Afaik CCP has already removed all roid belts from 1.0 systems and that did not curb the enthusiasm of people. Remove all agents from hubs also. Let people gather there for trade. CCP can make a story arc out of this saying that immense trade done in trade hubs and the consequential taxes gathered contributed to the fact population in those places doesn't have to work because of the abundance of isk and remove agents etc...Maybe tighten the security and ban wars in those places to ease the server load... Many many people gather in trade hubs and they are the places the most player interaction happens. Be it through trade or pvp. Jita has alway been the biggest red spot on the map when it comes to "ships killed in last 24h" If anyone want to gank a freighter in areas where pvp is allowed one can do that easily enough. It took me 38 seconds to die and even if HP would be tripled a determined force of 15 domis would still take only about a minute to pop a freighter which is still an appalingly small amount of time to take down a capital ship. I'll point out a few trade tips in my next post as this one has nearly maxed out in longwindedness ;)
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 11:53:00 - [355] Dolika's trade tips: Robotics!!! Yes. That's a NPC thingy. You can buy nearly an unlimited amount in batches of 22.000 units in Citadel region @ approx 6900 isk per unit. Haul that to Jita 4-4 and sell it for 7800 isk per unit in a day. You'll have to update your sell order a few times to keep ahead of competition but literally HUNDREDS of millions of isk can be made DAILY because in Forge region there is, if i remember correctly 300-600 thousand units sold every day and a good part of that falls on Jita 4-4. I have not done a thorough market research but the same strategy should be possible with all NPC goods that are used in T2 production. LARGE ARTILLERY BATTERY!!! Yup another NPC thingy. You can buy it for 10,25M near Rens and sell it for 12,8M in Jita. It used to be 25M in Jita and i made nearly a billion isk only selling that. LARGE AUTOCANNON BATTERY!!! Price is a bit different that artie and amount sold is a bit smaller but it will still turn 15-20% profit. HELIUM ISOTOPES. I've made hundreds of millions buying those in Amarr and hauling them to RENS, JITA and ESA. I've left that business a while ago but the lack of income was not the reason. NITROGEN, OXYGEN and HYDROGEN isotopes. Do a market research and buy where they are cheapest and sell where they cost the most. Lots of isk to be made there. T2 POS materials like fernite, carbonide, titanium etc carbide and the rest of that product group also have loads of possibilities for aspiring traders. The supply is very unbalanced and it is on the traders to balance it out. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS!!! Another NPC thing. You can buy them in nearly unlimited amounts almost anywhere for 274k isk. There is a place where supply is nil and demand is about 200-500 a month. That place is called ESA. You can sell GSC's there for 369k atm but i used to sell them for 999.999 isk p/u and they sold like hotcakes. Still if you are a newb and can haul 3 at a time in an itty 3 you'll still make 300k per trip and learn a valuable lesson in trading. I am not sure about Torrinos but if i remember correctly it's the same deal as ESA basically. R.A.M.s. Markets are outright starving for these items. R.A.M. robotics BPO costs 282k on the market. One unit costs about 30k to build and R.A.M. Robotics for example you will be able to sell in jita for 100k isk in a heartbeat. That's 330% markup for a bloody T1 item. Only a handful of T2 have such a big margin. You see a particular item on market and the difference between buy orders and sell orders is big. Big would be more than 25%. That's a fountain of free isk for those who know how the market works. Simpy outbid the highest buy order by .01 isk p/u and wait for it to start filling. You can then simply put the item back on the market in the same place .01 isk under the lowest sell order. Because the gap is say 30% you will be earning almost 30% profit margin for very little effort. Surely the gap will close but you will have moved to another item already. T1 nanofiber and cargo hold expander production has also been a business with immense markups. One costs like 2000 isk to build even if the builder has PE 0. A ME 0 BPO is already a perfect ME for both so it's instantly ready for production. Last i remembered expanded cargo holds sold for 5k and nanos for 9k. That's a major markup for anyone. Sure it's a small profit overall but if youre a 2 days old noob that's a lot of isk. 250mm T1 light artillery used to be a good profit maker also... All the above can be done on a large scale in a freighter or in a smaller scale in an iteron 3. the principle is the same and while a freighter pilot will obviously earn way more his investment is also about 2000 ( TWO THOUSAND ) times bigger because itty 3 with 3*T1 expanders costs 500k and freighter sets you back 980M atm. (Jita price). All these strategies are made obsolete if anyone can blow you up anywhere for basically no penalty to the agressor. Fix the freighters
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:04:00 - [356] I wonder how many carebear whines it takes for CCP to nerf this? Your not supposed to be entirely safe - if it takes over 10 BS to kill you before the cops come, thats 9 more than it takes people to beat on you before the cops come in RL - and in eve, the bad guys don't get away.... If you can afford freighters, you can afford to be in a corp, with members who can scout ahead to see if your about to jump into a 15 man gank fest. Sorry you lost your stuff, but thats eve - why CCP should cater to the people to lazy (or too greedy to share profits) with other players is beyond me....
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:15:00 - [357] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Sorry you lost your stuff, but thats eve - why CCP should cater to the people to lazy (or too greedy to share profits) with other players is beyond me.... WTF? Did you read the post above yours? BTW. No carebears = no supply of ships or modules or basically anything so everyone can take the pvp to the new level -> forums; like many do already To use your argument against you: Why would i hand over free T2 stuff to you if your only motivation to play eve is to make life miserable for players like myself who dont pvp 100% of the time. P.s. I have over 80 pvp kills to my name. Most of them solo or against bad odds.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:41:00 - [358] Edited by: Ki An on 08/05/2007 12:37:21 Originally by: Dolika BTW. No carebears = no supply of ships or modules or basically anything so everyone can take the pvp to the new level -> forums; like many do already I keep coming back to this thread for some reason... The quote above is a common mistake made by carebears. You think EvE needs you. Well, it doesn't. Fact is, most industrialists aren't carebears. I have three accounts, one of which is an industrial account, so yeah, I know what I'm talking about because I play all aspects of this game. You, on the other hand, are a carebear. A carebear is someone who constantly tries to change the game to make it easier for him, not caring about the good of the game, or about the other people playing. You, sir, or madame, are a carebear, and you are NOT needed in EvE. Kindly stfu and adapt, or gtfo of my game! /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.05.08 12:55:00 - [359] Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 08/05/2007 12:52:42 Originally by: Dolika WTF? Did you read the post above yours? BTW. No carebears = no supply of ships or modules or basically anything so everyone can take the pvp to the new level -> forums; like many do already To use your argument against you: Why would i hand over free T2 stuff to you if your only motivation to play eve is to make life miserable for players like myself who dont pvp 100% of the time. P.s. I have over 80 pvp kills to my name. Most of them solo or against bad odds. I never asked you for free T2 stuff, nor will I. My corp makes almost all the T2 items I need besides ships, so my purchasing of T2 items isn't huge anyway (I sell far more T2 items that I myself make than I'll ever use). Even those items i don't buy from corp mates, I purchase on the free market - read that ? purchase - meaning they aren't given to me, they are sold to me at a price the market decides caters to supply vs demand. I hate bursting your little bubble here, but pvpers don't 'need' industrial players - Yes, industrial players mean things are sold cheaper, but don't for one second disillusion yourself into believing this game would grind to a halt without you. And before you say it - I didn't ever claim that industrial players need pvpers , but we aren't the ones whining here in the hopes CCP yet again give into your cry baby demands. I do imagine without the thousands of ships being blown up daily by us it would lead to a much dryer market.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:17:00 - [360] Edited by: Dolika on 08/05/2007 13:15:31 Where have i hear the story about pvpers not needing the carebears and carebears not needing the pvpers? Hmmm... Was it the olde CA who was 100% pvp and crumbled? Was it the olde XETIC that crumbled because it was nearly all carebears... Was it the olde -5- who were all pvpers carebear haters and are no more... List goes on. Go the the graveyard of the alliances of the olde and see for yourself. Surely you will not say you enyoy mining 7 Million units of tritanium for your new BS... Some carebear had to do it... Were there no players who specialise in hoarding stuff to make other people gaming experience better EvE would be where RL was 3000 years ago when everyone produced what they used. P.s. 80+ kills made by me should qualify me as a semi-pvper ;). P.s.s. You're derailing the debate
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:22:00 - [361] Originally by: Dolika Edited by: Dolika on 08/05/2007 13:15:31 Where have i hear the story about pvpers not needing the carebears and carebears not needing the pvpers? Hmmm... Was it the olde CA who was 100% pvp and crumbled? Was it the olde XETIC that crumbled because it was nearly all carebears... Was it the olde -5- who were all pvpers carebear haters and are no more... List goes on. Go the the graveyard of the alliances of the olde and see for yourself. Surely you will not say you enyoy mining 7 Million units of tritanium for your new BS... Some carebear had to do it... Were there no players who specialise in hoarding stuff to make other people gaming experience better EvE would be where RL was 3000 years ago when everyone produced what they used. There you go mixing up industrialists with carebears again. A carebear is not an industrialist. A carebear is a whiner who thinks the game is too hard. Originally by: Dolika P.s. 80+ kills made by me should qualify me as a semi-pvper ;). Yes, but you're still a carebear. Pvpers can be carebears too, and you're the living example of it. Originally by: Dolika [ P.s.s. You're derailing the debate Nope, you brought up the whole "Wah! You need us bears to survive, wah!" /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:36:00 - [362] Here we go. Reinventing phrases. I'm done trying to convince you since youre obviously a hardcore... whatever you are. Fact is that if mechanics of eve remain the way they are now and 200M worth of ships can kill a Billion isk ship in 38 seconds and CONCORD cannot protect it in secure empire; the EVE markets will go into a steady decline and everyone will enyoy eve less as a result
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:40:00 - [363] Originally by: Dolika Here we go. Reinventing phrases. I'm done trying to convince you since youre obviously a hardcore... whatever you are. Fact is that if mechanics of eve remain the way they are now and 200M worth of ships can kill a Billion isk ship in 38 seconds and CONCORD cannot protect it in secure empire; the EVE markets will go into a steady decline and everyone will enyoy eve less as a result And tomorrow the world is going to come to an end as well. There've been so many people before you seeing the sky falling, markets crashing etc...nothing happened and it balanced itself.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:42:00 - [364] Originally by: Ki An The quote above is a common mistake made by carebears. You think EvE needs you. Well, it doesn't. Fact is, most industrialists aren't carebears. I have three accounts, one of which is an industrial account, so yeah, I know what I'm talking about because I play all aspects of this game. And you are the very incarnation of a common misconception with die-hard pvpers. You think EVE is ALL about you and that only what you think is good for the game actually is good for the game too. Well, it isn't. Fact is that EVEs true greatness stems from it offering a place for everyone, the lameass ganker as well as the lazyass carebear. And everyone inbetween. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:47:00 - [365] Originally by: Leandro Salazar And you are the very incarnation of a common misconception with die-hard pvpers. You think EVE is ALL about you and that only what you think is good for the game actually is good for the game too. Well, it isn't. Fact is that EVEs true greatness stems from it offering a place for everyone, the lameass ganker as well as the lazyass carebear. And everyone inbetween. Well, given the fact that carbears continually whine about things being too hard on the forums, I'd say that the game doesn't really offer them the kind of playstyle they want. I believe that EvE offers countless opportunities to do practically whatever you want. It doesn't cater to PvPers or to carebears, but to the people who like to play one or more of the various aspects of the game, as well as accepts and embrace the other aspects, even when they infringe on your own game play. Eve is a sandbox, and anything can and will happen. Carebears need not apply, because as we have seen from this and other threads like it, they can't and won't embrace any playstyle but their own, and they certainly don't want anything infringing on their time in the game. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:53:00 - [366] Edited by: Okkie2 on 08/05/2007 13:50:40 Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth I wonder how many carebear whines it takes for CCP to nerf this? Your not supposed to be entirely safe - if it takes over 10 BS to kill you before the cops come, thats 9 more than it takes people to beat on you before the cops come in RL - and in eve, the bad guys don't get away.... The problem is not people are able to kill a freighter, the problem is they can do it without any risk. A ganker will exactly know what he's going to loose, can check what's in the freighter and knows how much on average will survive (so his profit). therefore he know what he will loose, what he will gain and then decide to either kill or no. Atm there's just absolutely no risk in killing a freighter. Quote: If you can afford freighters, you can afford to be in a corp, with members who can scout ahead to see if your about to jump into a 15 man gank fest. And how would they be able to see this ? All the gankers need is 1 scout at the gate so he can wait for a profitable target, then call in the gank squad, bump the freighter a few times so it can't warp away and they can kill without any risk. Quote: Sorry you lost your stuff, but thats eve - why CCP should cater to the people to lazy (or too greedy to share profits) with other players is beyond me.... They would need at least 1 extra freighter to recover the loot which is left behind from the killed freighter (there's nothing you can do atm to prevent it from being killed) and 15 people in a domi to kill the freighter the gank-squad will use to scoop the loot. So the freighter being ganked will be killed, nothing a corp can do about it, and they will loose a large part of their freight because it will be destroyed in the kill. With enough people they might be able to recover the dropped cargo. So the loss is at least 1 freighter (1 bil) and the loot (at least a few bils otherwise they gankers wouldn't have attacked it) The people who are ganking will also loose their ships but that is a calculated loss (max a few hundred mills) and they have a very decent chance they will get the loot left behind (a few bil's) So whatever happens, the freighterpilot will always loose a few billions while the gankers will at max loose a few hundred millions, but have a very high chance of taking the loot. IMHO, there should be a risk for the gankers, so a solution would be to make cargoscanning a criminal act. Then the gankers can still kill the freighter, but don't know in front wether it's an empty freighter or one filled with expensive items. Furthermore drones should also be effected by Concord, it doesn't make sense concord does scramble ships at a 100% rate but don't do the same to drones.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:14:00 - [367] Originally by: Ki An Carebears need not apply, because as we have seen from this and other threads like it, they can't and won't embrace any playstyle but their own, and they certainly don't want anything infringing on their time in the game. /Ki You know, that is a pretty accurate description of your ilk as well, just you sit on the other side of the fence. And CCP has to balance the height of the fence between two very stubborn camps. The way I see it, even if the carebears disagree, when freighters dropped no loot, the fence was too high. Now that they DO drop loot and can be ganked by as little as 15 BSes, the fence is too low, even if the gankers disagree. So the fix should put it somewhere inbetween. Concord shooting drones might do that, but i somehow doubt it since concord is pretty slow in 0.5 sec. I would rather have seen insurance removed from concord kills, but thats just me. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:18:00 - [368] Originally by: Leandro Salazar You know, that is a pretty accurate description of your ilk as well, My 'ilk'? You mean those who play all aspects of the game, including PvP AND Industrial things? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:24:00 - [369] Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 08/05/2007 12:37:21 Originally by: Dolika BTW. No carebears = no supply of ships or modules or basically anything so everyone can take the pvp to the new level -> forums; like many do already I keep coming back to this thread for some reason... The quote above is a common mistake made by carebears. You think EvE needs you. Well, it doesn't. Fact is, most industrialists aren't carebears. I have three accounts, one of which is an industrial account, so yeah, I know what I'm talking about because I play all aspects of this game. You, on the other hand, are a carebear. A carebear is someone who constantly tries to change the game to make it easier for him, not caring about the good of the game, or about the other people playing. You, sir, or madame, are a carebear, and you are NOT needed in EvE. Kindly stfu and adapt, or gtfo of my game! /Ki I generally do not agree with Ki,, but he is correct here. As an old industrial player I can tell you from experience,, Eve does not have to have 'carebears' for the PvP'ers to fuction. Ki's definition of carebear,, well,, not sure what that is about. From what I know about carebears a carebear is a non-combatant and generally the primary character (a person that dislikes pvp). The sad truth is that people who do nothing but industrial work are not needed to make Eve work in the PvP aspect. Now don't confuse 'not needed' and 'not handy/fun' as meaning the same thing. Sure, it is nice that some people see fit to haul goodies all over the place and manufacture all sorts of things... but if they were not there to do so, then the alliances would simply do it themselves..... as if they are not already. There was a thread about 6 months to a year ago that really delved into this topic. The conclusion was that the majority of all the major wars are supported by an industrial base that is within the entities egaging in the war. The solo carebears were not a critical factor. Here is the kicker.... While Eve may not have to have carebears to work,, it needs them to keep the subscription levels high. ...and high subscription levels = lots of cash for CCP = lots of money to pay developers to develop new goodies for Eve. And to further confuse and befuddle the issue,,, there seem to be more 'carbears' playing Eve then PvP'ers. Add that to the equation and you have what is ticking of Ki... a majority whining and getting rules changed to benefit the majority,, who are not the prime directive of Eve but rather a monetary neccessity to CCP. Hmm,, stuck a lot of words into Ki's mouth,,, I am sure he will correct me if I got it wrong.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:31:00 - [370] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Leandro Salazar And you are the very incarnation of a common misconception with die-hard pvpers. You think EVE is ALL about you and that only what you think is good for the game actually is good for the game too. Well, it isn't. Fact is that EVEs true greatness stems from it offering a place for everyone, the lameass ganker as well as the lazyass carebear. And everyone inbetween. Well, given the fact that carbears continually whine about things being too hard on the forums, I'd say that the game doesn't really offer them the kind of playstyle they want. I believe that EvE offers countless opportunities to do practically whatever you want. It doesn't cater to PvPers or to carebears, but to the people who like to play one or more of the various aspects of the game, as well as accepts and embrace the other aspects, even when they infringe on your own game play. Eve is a sandbox, and anything can and will happen. Carebears need not apply, because as we have seen from this and other threads like it, they can't and won't embrace any playstyle but their own, and they certainly don't want anything infringing on their time in the game. /Ki Ki, My friend, you are losing it... Carebears are industrialists and Miners, it's the PvPer's that whine that they can't just shoot at everyone and try to change the game so they can (and the more weak targets the better)... Every post that wants to get everyone to 0.0 space or support what the Privateers were doing shows this. Silly statement isn't it... Carebears whine, PvPers whine, ONL whine... we all whine... (ONL - Other not listed) Carebears (And I am one) would prefer not to have to deal with the Pew Pew, we all have our reasons but they boil down to we do not enjoy that part of the game... PvPers like to shoot other players, they find the challenge enjoyable... AI's are not (intelligent that is) and players make the fight interesting because you can't count on what they will do next... Some Carebears would like a place in the sand box where all the sand is glued down... no kicking sand... a place where they can play and be perfectly safe... they are a small but vocal set of the carebears... Some of the PvPers want to drag all of us into the fight, weaken us to a point we can't defend ourselves (or get themselves a big enough advantage that they all but have a "Insta-Pop" button)... these are a small but vocal set of the PvPers. You can try to redefine the terms to fit your own view if you wish (Like POS... only in Eve does POS mean something other then what POS means every place else) but in normal terms, words mean things. Carebears can do PvP they just don't like it and try to avoid it if they can... PvPers like to PvP but can do other things (they just don't like it as much)... and Whiners Whine... Noob in training...
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:37:00 - [371] Originally by: Lord Dynastron And to further confuse and befuddle the issue,,, there seem to be more 'carbears' playing Eve then PvP'ers. Add that to the equation and you have what is ticking of Ki... a majority whining and getting rules changed to benefit the majority,, who are not the prime directive of Eve but rather a monetary neccessity to CCP. Hmm,, stuck a lot of words into Ki's mouth,,, I am sure he will correct me if I got it wrong. Well, you got it part right anyway. Not sure there are actually more carebears than PvPers in EvE, but I'd give you that there are generally more carebears than PvPers in the whole gaming community. That's why there are so many games that cater to the carebear lifestyle. Just droning around minding their own business, never having to actually interact with anyone. EvE has been an oasis for those that like an alternative play style, one that relies on team-work, and a harsh gritty environment that does not hold your hand in any way. There aren't that many people that enjoy that kind of thing, but we have more or less all wound up in this game, because here we can be whatever we want to be, and play the way we like. Now people have started to migrate to EvE from other games, namely WoW and EQ, and I can understand why, as WoW doesn't really offer all that much after you've hit the level cap and done all the quests. The problem is that the people coming here are taking their play style with them, and expect EvE to bend around their wishes. That's what I don't like, and that's why you hear every so often "go back to WoW". I can't speak for everyone, but I feel that my game experience is under threat, and that the ONLY online game that I enjoy is going down the ****ter because of the influx of carebear types of players. This is why I am so adamantly opposed to any change that makes the game 'safer' in any way, shape or form. Because 'safer' usually means 'boring' to me. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:39:00 - [372] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Leandro Salazar You know, that is a pretty accurate description of your ilk as well, My 'ilk'? You mean those who play all aspects of the game, including PvP AND Industrial things? /Ki No, your ilk as in those who want to take certain aspects of the game to extremes, with total disregard to what that means to the gaming experience of others (or rather, in many cases, with the explicit goal or at least willful endorsement of ruining some one elses gaming experience). --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Skywalker Minmatar BRUTE F0RCE	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:50:00 - [373] Haven't bothered to read all posts...but Simple solution, never load you cargo with stuff that would cost more then the ship losses for the agressors. You might have to go more rounds, but it is still doable. Also something that could work is loading up alot of crap items that will mess up their cargo scanner, it could at least save you the some time to get past before they looked through the list for an estimation of the value.
Aille Pluthrak Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:47:00 - [374] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth I wonder how many carebear whines it takes for CCP to nerf this? About 4 months worth. ---------------------- Boom goes the ship! Squish goes the pilot!
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:48:00 - [375] Every kind of ship should be destroyable, and I don't see why freighters should be the exception. That said, in the current conditions, the destruction of a non-wardecc'ed freighter in high-sec without said freighter being able to resort to any kind of countermeasure is SOLELY due to the conjunction of two elements: a GAME DESIGN FLAW, and a GAME MECHANICS FLAW. Game design flaw: All ships ingame have either their hitpoints in armor or shield, except freighters where the hp's are located in structure. Ships with slots can fit armor reppers, shield boosters and hull reppers. Additionally another player can remote armor rep or shield boost a friend. Since freighters don't enjoy slots, a logic hp regeneration solution would point towards remote hull reppers. But there's a problem: REMOTE HULL REPAIRERS DON'T EXIST. Game mechanics flaw: When Concord appears at the location of an illegitime attack from a high-sec perspective, its jamming prevents the offenders to use any kind of targettable weapon system, leaving only area-effect weapons at disposal (bursts or smartbombs). But again, there's an exception: drones only end their last assigned task when the ship they belong to is effectively destroyed. Hence, it is the unique combination of the lack of remote hull reppers (for a ship who can't fit jack) and the incoherent behavior of drones which allows a non-wardecced freighter to be destroyed in high-sec. IMHO, all this barely smells of a legitime tactic. It's not a question of isk. Personally I usually fly pimped crows with a snake set, so I take the risk to loose over 1 bil between my pod and the ship, but I know what I do and it's my sovereign choice. On the other hand, I wonder why the community should accept such an obvious double standard in Concord's effectivity (or lack thereof) when it comes to handle the damage inflicted by droneboats. What is the solution to render things more balanced ? I don't know, and as always, every kind of proposal will trigger whines. The only thing I could think of is to patch the game in order to make drones depending of the effective targetting ability of their owner. If something jams you, your drones should loose their lock also. That way, freighters could still be attacked in high-sec but success would require higher numbers, and droneboats would be submitted to the same rules like any other kind of ship.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:34:00 - [376] Originally by: Semkhet Game design flaw: REMOTE HULL REPAIRERS DON'T EXIST. Soo,, how do you repair a freighter that has been battle damaged to almost popping? In the NPC station for how much isk!??!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:42:00 - [377] Originally by: Semkhet If something jams you, your drones should loose their lock also. That way, freighters could still be attacked in high-sec but success would require higher numbers, and droneboats would be submitted to the same rules like any other kind of ship. no that would nerf drones all you need is for concord to jam the drones and kill them - itll be insta death for them anyways ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Hadesfire	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:48:00 - [378] I may be missing something here, so I'll just ask... Suppose ganking freighters becomes 'big' and 'popular'. There are now less T2 items (or whatever they were hauling) on the market due to the chance that some of them go poof on death (presumably, the killers would sell the rest anyway). So this causes the prices of these items to go back upwards. Wouldn't that result in INCREASED profit for someone like me who hauls stuff about in an industrial? Further, even for the freighter pilots themselves, wouldn't the fact that the goods are worth more money when sold, but still take the same amount to produce, mean that any run you made where you didn't get ganked would be much more profitable than it is now? How exactly is the market supposed to 'crash'?
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:53:00 - [379] Freighter pilots are going to have to re-learn the basics. 1: Don't fly with anything you can't afford to lose. 2: Fly smart and use all sources of intel available to you. 3: Don't fly with anything you can't afford to lose. These are the gospel for every other pilot in EVE, from Frigate pilots up to Capital Ship Pilots... it now applies to Freighters as well. My sympathy is limited... and yes, I fly a freighter from time to time.
Elmicker Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:57:00 - [380] Just been on the test server and there's been a few changes in an attempt to stop freighter highsec ganking. The big one is concord instantly nuke your cap the second they spawn, so no hardeners or tanking. I also think damage has had a big massive increase, as just about everyone in the 17-strong gang involved in the test was instapopped, only one raven survived to get more than one shot off. With our crazy T2 SiSi fits, we managed to get the test Providence to 98% structure. So, should make freighter ganking much, much harder.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:03:00 - [381] Originally by: Hadesfire I may be missing something here, so I'll just ask... Suppose ganking freighters becomes 'big' and 'popular'. There are now less T2 items (or whatever they were hauling) on the market due to the chance that some of them go poof on death (presumably, the killers would sell the rest anyway). So this causes the prices of these items to go back upwards. Wouldn't that result in INCREASED profit for someone like me who hauls stuff about in an industrial? Further, even for the freighter pilots themselves, wouldn't the fact that the goods are worth more money when sold, but still take the same amount to produce, mean that any run you made where you didn't get ganked would be much more profitable than it is now? How exactly is the market supposed to 'crash'? No, it will mean that an intelligent manufacturer sells at his location, rather than risking massive amounts of product being transported to a central location like Jita. People take Jita VERY much for granted, like CCP intended this one system to become the center of the universe. The fact is, its a luxury to have a massive central shopping system like this, and its nothing that's ever been guaranteed to us. Jita, like anything else, will die if its not protected. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:07:00 - [382] Guess you guys are missing the point. CCP clearly intended Concord to be able to stop ganking in high sec. They jam the crap out of every other weapon you have, and make it impossible to gank, unless you can do it before they arrive. They arrive at varying speeds depending on the sec rating. So yes, nothing was intended to be 100% safe. But the drone thing is a loophole. Someone at CCP forgot that drones aren't susceptable to jamming once loosed. This is clearly a case of the law of unintended consequences. Basically, the loophole wasn't worth exploiting until freighters dropped loot. Now it's come to our attention, because they do. And before you say "Oh CCP must have intended this, no way they would have left it in otherwise" remember that they were apparently a little redfaced when someone pointed out on Sisi that doomsdays could instantly take out all the weapons on a pos under their new configuration. Remember all the other times they didn't anticipate every possible consequence of a change. Not bashing them, it happens in a project this big. So, you are exploiting what is clearly a loophole in the intended function of a system. If it's closed it will be because of that, not because people are whining. Sorry, there's plenty of PVP in this game. You don't want PVP. YOU want easy profitable kills. In other words, you want to be in essence a PVP carebear. On top of that, logistics is already the single most tedious aspect of this game. You want to make it more so for your own benefit, essentially. As is always the case in MMO's, the loud minority of ganker fanatics want to distort gameplay mechanics to ridiculous extents just to get their rocks off. I like pvp. It's fun. But I don't think we should allow obvious holes in the way the game functions just to allow you to make an easy living. Sorry. The rest of us have to work at it.
Sexy Schoolgirl	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:33:00 - [383] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer So, you are exploiting what is clearly a loophole in the intended function of a system. If it's closed it will be because of that, not because people are whining. Sorry, there's plenty of PVP in this game. You don't want PVP. YOU want easy profitable kills. In other words, you want to be in essence a PVP carebear. I like pvp. It's fun. But I don't think we should allow obvious holes in the way the game functions just to allow you to make an easy living. Sorry. The rest of us have to work at it. This man has said it the best... I'm tired of easy loophole ganks followed by the arrogant name callings, like 'carebear'. If you want to gank and if you think you are such a man, then why take the easy road that involves exploting unintended game mechanics to your advantage? Who's the real pansy here? Not the carebear who is working hard to produce and play a legit role in this game. You my friend, the ganker galore, are nothing but a lazy pansy. No offense, but I'd rather be a hardworking industrialist, than a lazy griefer who gets his thrills weeny tactics.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:37:00 - [384] Originally by: DeadProphet mmmm shouldn't D2 have more pressing things to attend to? Well they cant mine or rat due to Trium, so they got to make isk somehow :D I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot. Nice Isk. I'll take it.
Redsan	Posted - 2007.05.08 18:56:00 - [385] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Dynastron And to further confuse and befuddle the issue,,, there seem to be more 'carbears' playing Eve then PvP'ers. Add that to the equation and you have what is ticking of Ki... a majority whining and getting rules changed to benefit the majority,, who are not the prime directive of Eve but rather a monetary neccessity to CCP. Hmm,, stuck a lot of words into Ki's mouth,,, I am sure he will correct me if I got it wrong. Well, you got it part right anyway. Not sure there are actually more carebears than PvPers in EvE, but I'd give you that there are generally more carebears than PvPers in the whole gaming community. That's why there are so many games that cater to the carebear lifestyle. Just droning around minding their own business, never having to actually interact with anyone. EvE has been an oasis for those that like an alternative play style, one that relies on team-work, and a harsh gritty environment that does not hold your hand in any way. There aren't that many people that enjoy that kind of thing, but we have more or less all wound up in this game, because here we can be whatever we want to be, and play the way we like. Now people have started to migrate to EvE from other games, namely WoW and EQ, and I can understand why, as WoW doesn't really offer all that much after you've hit the level cap and done all the quests. The problem is that the people coming here are taking their play style with them, and expect EvE to bend around their wishes. That's what I don't like, and that's why you hear every so often "go back to WoW". I can't speak for everyone, but I feel that my game experience is under threat, and that the ONLY online game that I enjoy is going down the ****ter because of the influx of carebear types of players. This is why I am so adamantly opposed to any change that makes the game 'safer' in any way, shape or form. Because 'safer' usually means 'boring' to me. /Ki You make a couple common misconceptions here. Most(not all) MMO's do require some player interaction. As an ex-EQ player, I can state for sure that EQ at least required large amounts of player interaction, just not PvP. Player interaction does not neccessarily mean PvP. You can be a carebear, and still make the most out of the social aspects of Eve. Secondly, you seem to make the common misconception that players are changing the game. It almost would be right, players do change some aspects of the social nature of the game, but players cannot change the rules, not do they patch Eve. Any fundamental change with Eve, any rule change, is done by the devs, for reasons they think are apprpriate. The most players can do is bring to the attention of the devs things they think should be changed. CCP makes the final descisions, based on more info than either you or I have available, and with their vision in mind. I doubt very much that Eve is going to be an only carebear game, nor do I think that PvP will suffer from many more limits than those already in place. I think things are about right, with Empire being 'mostly safe', but certainly not entirely safe. This strikes me as about the right balance. This seeming fear that PvP is going to get nerfed to oblivion in Eve, or at least in Empire, seems unlikely to me.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:01:00 - [386] The problem with PvP isn't the nerfs or the new ships. Its veterans clinging to the "Good Old Days" nostalgia of PvP before super capital ships and Titans. Its the entire motivation that drove the Privateers. They were sick of the new PvP paradigm in 0.0, so they came back to empire where the capitals couldn't follow them, then they used the wardec system to metagame themselves back into the early days of EVE. CCP decided to remind them that they can't live in the past. They'll do it again with the freighter gankers, reminding them that CONCORD was added for a reason. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:27:00 - [387] Funny how I remember a time when there were no Transports or Freighters.... Certainly did not "kill trading". All this is going to do is "kill afk trading...omfg how easy it is to print isk"...trading. Merc Blog
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:40:00 - [388] Originally by: Karash Amerius Funny how I remember a time when there were no Transports or Freighters.... Certainly did not "kill trading". All this is going to do is "kill afk trading...omfg how easy it is to print isk"...trading. Hi Boss! Ahh yes,,, back in the days where 'Local Hull Conversion's' were king! <-- actually, not that long ago. You bring up a great point tho... freighters do not have to be in Eve at all. ...but I really like 'em.
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:59:00 - [389] Originally by: Karash Amerius Funny how I remember a time when there were no Transports or Freighters.... Certainly did not "kill trading". All this is going to do is "kill afk trading...omfg how easy it is to print isk"...trading. Very true indeed. But in these old times EVE didn't have either to cope with the endemic consumer needs of 20K nublets who are happy if they can build a frig and a few weapons of their own. Let's not forget that the average stay of a common EVE player is 6-9 months, and those players mainly mine and consume, but seldom build.
Semkhet Saudarkars	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:14:00 - [390] Originally by: Elmicker Just been on the test server and there's been a few changes in an attempt to stop freighter highsec ganking. The big one is concord instantly nuke your cap the second they spawn, so no hardeners or tanking. I also think damage has had a big massive increase, as just about everyone in the 17-strong gang involved in the test was instapopped, only one raven survived to get more than one shot off. With our crazy T2 SiSi fits, we managed to get the test Providence to 98% structure. So, should make freighter ganking much, much harder. I don't like that since it will render every kind of suicide attack in high-sec much more difficult. Last time I did it (was a while though), I could resist 18-20 seconds with a (mostly) T1 Arma against Concord in Jita. If this gets implemented then the only thing pirates will be able to play with is the sec level of systems due to the variable Concord response delay, and you can bet that NPC-corp freighters will not even enter below 0.6 then...
Agal Peberg East Khanid Trading	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:18:00 - [391] Well, as being born in may 2003 (the toon), i'll remember a few things... I remember... m0o roaming 1.0 systems killing off noobs (and others) with their "tanked" ships. It made concord bigger and stronger, they also (IIRC) entered the rule of not being able to enter gates and stations within a certain time. I remember then you could snipe from about 100-120 km from a gate or a station, without sentrys doing a thing. Cause they had a range of 50-70km (somewhere). New and better turrets were installed in the sentrys. I remember... gate ganking tanks, one supertanked ships takes on all the sentrys fire and the rest of the group direct firepower to the target. Sentrys got upgraded to rotate targets. and more during the years... recently it seems like its to easy (too cheap) to war dec corps in empire, so if the rule hasnt been enforced yet, it is discussed atm to make it way more expensive to add and upkeep many war decs. So, following their path of counteractions against possibilities to kill to easy in "secure" space. I am sure freighter kills in high sec empire too will get acted upon. Only a matter of time... I dont see why Concord (CCP) would suddenly change policy about this... So for the freighter killers... speed up, increase the kill rate, the fun will probably be over in short. And be asure... you at least had an influence in how the game developed Probably more than I ever will in my eve-lifetime. Recruitment Thread EKT Website
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:28:00 - [392] I dont think anyone can disagree that Eve has changed...I would be the first one to admit that. However, the same principles do apply. Freighters drop loot now, and I suspect that CCP will add module slots of some sort to them in response to this design change. The primary defense that freighters had was that they never dropped loot. Since that has changed, it requires changes to how freighters are designed. But don't expect them to reverse their design Merc Blog
Lord Bleu Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:45:00 - [393] Originally by: Shameless Avenger This is a good thing IMHO. All the non-freighter pilots in empire can now make a little bit more money. I was already tired of so many freighters in my system. Is imposible to compete with those pilots on the market unless you get your own freighter too. So? What's your point. You are right, if you want to compete with freighter pilots, invest the 3 or 4 months in getting the skills they've invested to get theirs. That is like saying It's impossible to comepte against all the combat ships in your ibis. No disrespect, but silliest post I've seen in this forum. Personally, even as a PVP player who kills without mercy I agree with the OP. Freighter popping in empire should not be easy. >> The Xizor Cartel << >> Currently Recruiting Mature PVP'ers <<
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:49:00 - [394] Originally by: Hadesfire I may be missing something here, so I'll just ask... Suppose ganking freighters becomes 'big' and 'popular'. There are now less T2 items (or whatever they were hauling) on the market due to the chance that some of them go poof on death (presumably, the killers would sell the rest anyway). So this causes the prices of these items to go back upwards. Wouldn't that result in INCREASED profit for someone like me who hauls stuff about in an industrial? Further, even for the freighter pilots themselves, wouldn't the fact that the goods are worth more money when sold, but still take the same amount to produce, mean that any run you made where you didn't get ganked would be much more profitable than it is now? How exactly is the market supposed to 'crash'? a) you can be killed by 1 of the aboive domi, or some of the other gankships available for little cost as your cargo will be more valuable; b) it it happen often enough (probably even 2 time in 100 voyages) the freighter pilot will not profit as a big percentage of is profit is destroyed in the loss of the cargo and ship; c) the cost of hauling bulky but not so valuable items(say a full load of tritanium) will increase as it must be done with smaller ships or a freighter pilot will increase the price to cover the risk. All that will not "crash" the market, but will change the dinamics. Probably it will mean higher prices on all the board, exactly when CCP has in project to reduce the isk inflow. It could make regional hubs more interesting, or it can convince CCP to implement the regional market idea, with interbus moving the cargoes on a constellation or regional level (was suggested some month ago in a dev blog). The end result will be some change, good or bad, I am not sure.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.08 22:52:00 - [395] Being an industrial character - like everybody knows - my solution to freighter gankers is simple. LE SKUNKS ALTERNATIVE TO FORUM WHINING RE: FREIGHTER GANKING A two freighter convoy - With three BS escort. Domis with remote reps and remote rep drones in my head. This requires a 5 man corp only. Each freighter carrys half the transport load - thus cutting down the profit in killing either one. If a freighter is targeted BS immediatly activate remore reps on it and try and get their remote rep drones out in time to get em activated before lag kicks in. If freighter is popped (eg Freighter A) - then freighter B immediatly approaches the wreck to scoop whatever remains. The enemy will have a freighter about to pick up the loot as well. If you beat him to it - congrats. If he beats you to it - he will be looting from your own corps wreck - so your three BS escort will be able to fire on it at will and kill it. Any surviving loot can then be scooped as normal. Anyone shooting on your BS will be concordoken. If the enemy has haulers to pick up the loot - same will apply. Simple eh? Works with precisly no rattling of keyboards and dire threats on the forums. IT will work best if carrying the larger items not haulable in haulers. ganker will then have to fit out a second squad of gankers - and concievably a third squad to get his job done. Making it more complex and less value for money more of an unprofitable stand of situation. sKUNK
Little Strawberry Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 00:15:00 - [396] Edited by: Little Strawberry on 09/05/2007 00:11:39 Again, the biggest problem with high sec gankage is that there is NO WAY to defend your ship. Lets say I wanted to take a fleet of 15 battleships with me to escort my freighter. In this particular example, the freighter died in 38 seconds. Someone explain to me how I could kill all 14 aggressing domis in 38 seconds with an equal fleet. You'd have to have somewhere in the range of 6-8 battleships per aggressor to get it done, and it would still be close. There is no possible way to stop suicide gankers, which is why its a stupid and unbalanced game mechanic. You can not aggress them before hand, and they can easily stay aligned from far enough away where a scout couldnt scan them. Basically the ONLY tactics you can use is to either 1) run multiple freighter convoys so that you can either have decoys or hopefully one of them can scoop the loot from the main freighter if it dies, or 2) have a huginn escort you and pray that you can get insta warped and not be aggressed when you land at the other gate. All in all, high sec gankage has always been a completely rediculous tactic that has always needed looked at. But once again, CCP is showing a complete inability to identify high priority broken game mechanics and come up with workable solutions, consider this one added to the list. /shrug, this is why I don't play much any more.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.09 00:18:00 - [397] Originally by: Little Strawberry Edited by: Little Strawberry on 09/05/2007 00:11:39 Again, the biggest problem with high sec gankage is that there is NO WAY to defend your ship. Lets say I wanted to take a fleet of 15 battleships with me to escort my freighter. In this particular example, the freighter died in 38 seconds. Someone explain to me how I could kill all 14 aggressing domis in 38 seconds with an equal fleet. You'd have to have somewhere in the range of 6-8 battleships per aggressor to get it done, and it would still be close. There is no possible way to stop suicide gankers, which is why its a stupid and unbalanced game mechanic. You can not aggress them before hand, and they can easily stay aligned from far enough away where a scout couldnt scan them. Basically the ONLY tactics you can use is to either 1) run multiple freighter convoys so that you can either have decoys or hopefully one of them can scoop the loot from the main freighter if it dies, or 2) have a huginn escort you and pray that you can get insta warped and not be aggressed when you land at the other gate. All in all, high sec gankage has always been a completely rediculous tactic that has always needed looked at. But once again, CCP is showing a complete inability to identify high priority broken game mechanics and come up with workable solutions, consider this one added to the list. /shrug, this is why I don't play much any more. will you get your head out of your ... ALL that needs to be changed is the broken drones making empire safer would be dumb ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 00:23:00 - [398] And why cnat you insure a freighter for full value? Because it is a player produced item - And people are making big markups on it? The very same people who are hauling a lot of the parts in their freighters maybee? Home to roost anyone? SKUNK
Augeas	Posted - 2007.05.09 00:33:00 - [399] Some more solutions for freighter pilots too busy whining to think... 1. Escort with ECM burst. Since the DPS is coming from the drones, just use this to break their lock. OK, you won't break all locks, but even if you get just half, then you've halved their DPS. If that's not enough, bring another ECM burst escort. Of course, this will likely get you CONCORDED as well, but I don't think a couple of Griffins with ECM Burst I cost very much... 2. Escort BS with smartbombs. Same principle. 3. Six or so remote repping escort BS. They don't need to let you tank the damage, just slow it down so CONCORD can arrive. 4. Use your brain for a change?
Andreas Kallesoee Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:47:00 - [400] do you have any idea of how long it takes to fly a freighter around empire???? i would like to have some enjoyment left in eve thank you and then ask 20 people to help you, they will be boorede to tears after the firste 10 jumps, there is no faster way to kill a corp other then to bore them, and yes the gankers just have to pick a gate in a hub system and wait for what 30 minuts to have a posible target as there are a few freigters around these days. So no there is NO defence ageinst a gank squad that is out for blood.
Radioactive Babe Red Frost	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:15:00 - [401] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer Guess you guys are missing the point. CCP clearly intended Concord to be able to stop ganking in high sec. They jam the crap out of every other weapon you have, and make it impossible to gank, unless you can do it before they arrive. They arrive at varying speeds depending on the sec rating. So yes, nothing was intended to be 100% safe. But the drone thing is a loophole. Someone at CCP forgot that drones aren't susceptable to jamming once loosed. This is clearly a case of the law of unintended consequences. Basically, the loophole wasn't worth exploiting until freighters dropped loot. Now it's come to our attention, because they do. And before you say "Oh CCP must have intended this, no way they would have left it in otherwise" remember that they were apparently a little redfaced when someone pointed out on Sisi that doomsdays could instantly take out all the weapons on a pos under their new configuration. Remember all the other times they didn't anticipate every possible consequence of a change. Not bashing them, it happens in a project this big. So, you are exploiting what is clearly a loophole in the intended function of a system. If it's closed it will be because of that, not because people are whining. Sorry, there's plenty of PVP in this game. You don't want PVP. YOU want easy profitable kills. In other words, you want to be in essence a PVP carebear. On top of that, logistics is already the single most tedious aspect of this game. You want to make it more so for your own benefit, essentially. As is always the case in MMO's, the loud minority of ganker fanatics want to distort gameplay mechanics to ridiculous extents just to get their rocks off. I like pvp. It's fun. But I don't think we should allow obvious holes in the way the game functions just to allow you to make an easy living. Sorry. The rest of us have to work at it. Unfortunately the muppets seem to have a knack of not seeing posts like this. Particualrly this bit: Quote: Sorry, there's plenty of PVP in this game. You don't want PVP. YOU want easy profitable kills. In other words, you want to be in essence a PVP carebear. On top of that, logistics is already the single most tedious aspect of this game. You want to make it more so for your own benefit, essentially. It appears that most people who endorse freighter popping for profit are the pvp carebears ... they want all the fun (plus lots of isk!!) with no risk. Yeah, the freighter pilot is doing the same, but he paid several billion isk for the privelege, and killing him will set him back years, the pvpbear will be far ahead - sec loss is negligible for the pvpbear and not enough of a negative to counteract the greed.
Dr Caymus Gallente Applied Technologies Inc	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:37:00 - [402] You know, even as an industrialist and trader, I can not side with the OP. Nothing in the game should be totally safe, unless you just want to sit in Jita IV-4 flipping Juggs for a living. (And even then, you might get "ganked" by suicide PVP traders if you don't know what you are doing ). If a bunch of guys want to get together and gank freighters in suicide Domis, more power to them! Keeps the game exciting. If you think Freighters should be given a few slots, great, I'll take 'em... but come on, don't sterilize the game... I scanned the thread and may have missed it, but I don't think anybody raised the issue of the OP's skill set. In my corp, even if you are in a Freighter, you're hauling Veldspar unless you have at minimum the following skills: Mechanic 4 Hull Upgrades 4 Shield Management 4 Shield Operations 4 Navigation 4 Evasive Maneuvering 4 Spaceship Command 5 Advanced Spaceship Command 4 You gotta have these skills. Period. Huge gains to agility and 20% or more added to structure, shields, and armor. Might not stop events like the one we're talking about, but could make the difference. And use your head... if you think there's any chance of running into this kind of camp follow the sage advice already presented: put an alt in a shuttle one jump ahead of you to scout the route, and be a less interesting target - don't carry more than a billion ISK or so worth of stuff in any one Freighter. Weigh the time/risk/reward function carefully and make your own good judgement on how to proceed.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:58:00 - [403] Most my skills are higher than you wrote as a minimum. Especially the important ones like advanced spaceship command 5 and hull upgrades 5. With all armor and shield skills not yet maxed, maxed out i would have lived for one, maybe 2 more more seconds. That's it. I am not saying empire should be made 100% safe for everyone. Considering freighters ARE a capital ship there should be a longer life expectancy than 38 seconds though. Btw... With the fact that freighter can be ganked in 38 secs has anyone given some thought on how to move a T2 BPO in these conditions? A MWD inty will die a horrible death to a single SB Battleship sitting on gate. Any other ship is not appropriate because it's too sluggish and will get ganked by those domis evern easier than a freighter will... Fact is that if freighetr gankage continues there will be a lot more angry people on these boards and because carebears wont go out and shoot some baddies the frustration will go into prices which will inflate and then the killbears will come whining that T2 425mm rails cost 15M yet it costs only 2M to build them and forget it now takes 5 freighter trips to haul them not one (under the: "dont haul more than 15 suicide domis cost in the end * 2 = 400M" rule) and remain oblivius to the fact the freighter itself costs 980 million isk so it's a billion isk ship loss plus 450M goods. Fix the freighters or the cops now please. Can anyone from CCP tell us if it was meant to be that 15 T1 domis can pop a freighter in 38 sec yet 15 T2 blaster megathrons with waaaaaay more DPS, cannot; and dispel the nonsense about what was meant to work how.
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.09 16:07:00 - [404] Again, the only ship that had a design flaw was the freighter as it never dropped loot (and hence that was its primary defense). That flaw in design has been fixed. Freighters were never meant to be an "I win" button for traders/haulers. CCP is just putting some skill back into the game, as in real player skill...not superficial skill stats. Merc Blog
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.09 16:36:00 - [405] Originally by: Dr Caymus I'll take 'em... but come on, don't sterilize the game... If i remember the map of eve galaxy correctly there is a green island in the middle surrounded by a coast of orange and then red sea covers the rest when i set it to show security rating... Plenty of places for non consentual pvp there. People roaming around empire should be seen as the big: I DON'T WANT TO PVP sign bearers. The reason why; is one's own. Some are running missions, others are running haulers, some are running scared, some are hoarding a freighter full of T2 gear to drive to ESA/TORRINOS and haunt the Y-Y or PF-346 - if they don't get ganked on the way ;). Everyone so heavily bent on pvp in empire take a step back. There's 2/3 of EVE galaxy that offers unrestricted pvp and yet you keep on forcing the same toon over&over again about not having the freedom to screw someone over anywhere in eve (play eve). Read: If you want to pvp go to 0.0. CCP would like nothing more than another 50k people living in 0.0. Go on. Plenty alliances there who need good pvpers or can offer a good fight themselves. Or you can form your own alliance. That is if you're not afraid ;) I fear not the sterilisation of eve; it's the all out unwanted pvp=gankage im afraid
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:20:00 - [406] Try looking at the map with "ships killed" ticker on. Your sea of gree turns a nasty shade of red SKUNK
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:27:00 - [407] Originally by: Dolika Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 04/05/2007 19:24:36 meh thats the way eve goes. ever since eve began safe space is meant to be 'SAFE' space not pvp=no zones. you had too much value (more then 2b) in a frieghter and flew solo, means you will die :D I fail to see the "pvp" part when 14 Domis mop the floor with a solo freighter in empire without a wardec for a minor sec hit and about 100M isk in fitting costs. Mind that a Dominix can be built for waaay more than it can be insured for and getting popped in one can actually MAKE you isk. I know. I've done it. Wait a minute....how can you have done it? You're in the School of Applied Knowledge? Certainly you and your newb friends haven't gone ganking in domis..... Although, the solution left is that you're an alt. A freighter alt. Metagaming to avoid a wardec. Presuming such is the case, look at it from another point of view. If the people who don't like your corporation/alliance want to kill you, why should you be safe by hiding in an NPC corp? It wasn't a random hit, it was staged and planned. Specifically for you. Instead of having an alt in an NPC corp, task your non-alt corporation to provide security.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:41:00 - [408] I am a Carebear, I do not like PvP (and a PvP Carebear is an oxymoron) and do what I can to avoid the Pew Pew... that being said... I do not think the Problem is that a Freighter can be popped in Empire, but that it pops in 38 seconds... and can do nothing to stop it or slow it down... I do not think the problem is that there can be suicide Ganking of Freighters, but that the Cost/Benefit (Risk/Reward) is totally messed up, the Suicide ganker has no real costs and great benefits, the Freighter has great risk and little reward... and the Freighter Driver's reward drops to 0 once the Gank starts. I do not think the problem is that the Freighter needs an Escort, but that escort can do little if anything to protect the Freighter... and like the freighter Driver, once the gank starts, the rewards to the escort are nil (cost is just not as high as the freighter driver). Noob in training...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:27:00 - [409] Edited by: Avon on 09/05/2007 18:26:10 The only problem here is people crying out for CCP to help them when they refuse to help themselves. This is not unbalanced. In equal numbers the gankers never win, it is always easier to defend the freighter than it is to kill it. The problem is that the "victims" think that somehow they should not have to put in the same amount of effort in to defending themselves than the "griefers" have to put in to killing them, and want CCP to step in. To defend against 15 Doms flown by max skilled pilots requires an escort of 8 or 9 ships to ensure safety. Each extra 5 Doms increases the amount of required of defenders by 3-4 ships. All you have to do is reduce the incomming drone DPS to a level where the remote rep amount outstrips the received damage. With 9 ships I can do this in 21 seconds (give or take a second), leaving you a full 17 seconds to point and laugh at the silly pirates. However, the details are rather unimportant, because the whingers will complain that they are expected to have any escort. They think it is somehow unfair that their solo playstyle is less powerful than group play. Well, sorry, but that is as it should be. 15 players put the effort in to killing you, and you do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help yourself, but somehow you should be able to negate their effort by moaning, rather than taking a more pro-active stance? No. If that is your outlook, you deserve to lose your stuff .. repeatedly. The situation is already skewed in favour of the defenders(PLURAL), and yet they want more help? At some point you have to ask yourself if you actually want to play a MMOG at all. It seems to me that some people want a nice safe solo game with an IRC bolt on, and that saddens me. Worse, they would upset the entire balance of the game to ensure their comfort zone remains intact, rather than putting some effort in to playing the game. Can you even start to imagine how NPC corp freighters becomming invunerable in "safe" space would upset the balance of the game? How would you even begin to stop the logistics of your enemies if they could just resupply using a /pvpoff flag? This game is harsh, sinister, complex, and well .. nasty. That is good. It may make losing hurt, but it makes winning so much sweeter. Victory is meaningless if it is not the alternative to a substantive defeat. If you can afford to fill a freighter with billions of ISK of stuff, but can't find 10 friends to share your game experience, then you are a poorer player than most. The riches of Eve are not measureable in stuffÖ. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:30:00 - [410] Originally by: Avon stuff... You can remote Rep the Freighters Hull or are you saying in the 21 seconds it takes you to overcome the DPS of the Drones they will not get to hull? Freighter Driver has losses even if he is not popped... The gankers can make ISK from the Insurance thus face no loss (beyond the slight ding on their standings)... and much to gain... If there was no insurance payouts to pilots who lost a ship to Concord, then the destruction of the Freighter and the recovery of the cargo would be the only way for the Gankers to profit... paid for succeeding... cost of failure is the price of the ship(s) lost... A Limited Slot in the Freighter that can hold (and operate) a hull repairer means if your freighter survives, you profit, paid to succeed, failure means you lost the Freighter and perhaps the Cargo... potentially Billions... The unbalanced nature as it stands now is that there is no cost to ganking even if you fail, and potentially great loss to the freighter drivers even if he succeeds (and the Freighter Driver succeeds if the Gankers fail). But I will agree with you whole heartedly that the Riches of Eve are not found in Stuff or ISK. Noob in training...
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:44:00 - [411] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 09/05/2007 18:26:10 The only problem here is people crying out for CCP to help them when they refuse to help themselves. This is not unbalanced. In equal numbers the gankers never win, it is always easier to defend the freighter than it is to kill it. The problem is that the "victims" think that somehow they should not have to put in the same amount of effort in to defending themselves than the "griefers" have to put in to killing them, and want CCP to step in. To defend against 15 Doms flown by max skilled pilots requires an escort of 8 or 9 ships to ensure safety. Each extra 5 Doms increases the amount of required of defenders by 3-4 ships. Here's the problem with that ridiculous theory. Game is supposed to = fun. Hauling = not fun, which is why it is generally done afk. It's NECESSARY, but not FUN. Now you want to propose in essence, that a loophole in the obviously intended game mechanics be allowed so that the single most tedious action in this game now must be shared by 8 or 9 more people, EVERY TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO MOVE SOMETHING. Again, as I posted earlier, its a bunch of PVP carebears who want to abuse game mechanics to make the game more tedious for everyone but themselves, and walk away with an easy score. Because they KNOW that not everyone who wants to move something will be able to summon up a support fleet at a whistle. So they KNOW they will always have easy and profitable gank targets. Anyone who argues otherwise is selling you something for their own benefit. Empire isn't meant to be a warzone unless you are wardecced (or engaged in future "factional warfare). Period. The free flow of goods in EVE depends on the ability to move them through Empire with the benefit of the protection offered by Concord. I can and do use a scout when moving my hauler, but that doesn't guarantee I'll spot the gatecamp. Most of the intelligent gankers have a covops or a single ship on gate, and warp in on you when you jump in with the hauler, knowing you'll take a while to get to speed. It never ceases to amaze me how vehemently someone who is benefiting from an exploit will defend it as if it were intended, when anyone with the least brain can figure it out just by looking at it.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:56:00 - [412] Originally by: Le Skunk Try looking at the map with "ships killed" ticker on. Your sea of gree turns a nasty shade of red SKUNK I've never seen a night that Jita WASN'T bright red on the "Pilots killed in the last hour" setting. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:07:00 - [413] Freighters were gankable just as easily prior they dropped the cans and nobody bothered to exact their revenge on a known NPC corp freighter alt or even directly on a corp freighter during a no war period. The mechanics that are now make it very appealing for those who live in fear of pvp in 0.0 AND D2 obviously to engage in outright grief play. AVON i've seen BOB freighters in empire and i've yet to see one with any kind of escort let alone not flying afk. Defense is not a viable option in EvE and you of all the posters in this thread should be most aware of that being a member of an aliance which has built it's place in eve on all out attack stype of play and look how many times you guys lose a fight. Considering the speed CCP has issued an update one test server trading 200M worth of domis for a freighter is not supposed to happen. TBH. If any would be pirate wants to trade 15 T2 outfitted Tempests to get a freighter kill they can go ahead. They will all die and the freighter will survive because they wont be using a loophole in EvE. CCP provided us with plenty of 0.0 to pvp; yet some players insist on negating the purpose of the empire. Easy kills is what you seek and demand from CCP. If any place existed where one cannot be forced to pvp that would interfere with the divine plan of galaxy domination put forth by BOB? Yes i've heard the stories. You can stop your enemy easy AVON: You kill their will to fight and youre done. No amount of "invulnerable" freighters afking around empire can tip the balance of the war that is fought in deep 0.0. If NPC empire freighters would count for something old XETIC would be the ruler of the universe and not BOB. Get your head out of your ass and realise the state of play is not what CCP intended it to be and has to be balanced out asap. Characters in NPC corps are in NPC corps for a reason: They obviously don't want to engage in pvp, they obviously don't want to have lots of contact with other players (some people are just antisocial, afraid, whatever...) Just as you wont get a deaf or a mute character to sign up for TS no matter how good his solo pvp skills are you wont get chars that are not interested in your style of play to do it for your personal amusement. I used the word chars because this is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. I remember the same argument used when Spiral posted a screenie by "mistake" and it was widely accepted.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:24:00 - [414] Originally by: Dolika CCP provided us with plenty of 0.0 to pvp; yet some players insist on negating the purpose of the empire. Easy kills is what you seek and demand from CCP. CCP has insisted that PvP can occur anywhere, yet some players insist on ignoring this and claim that Empire should be free of non-consentual PvP. Originally by: Dolika Characters in NPC corps are in NPC corps for a reason: They obviously don't want to engage in pvp, they obviously don't want to have lots of contact with other players (some people are just antisocial, afraid, whatever...) Just as you wont get a deaf or a mute character to sign up for TS no matter how good his solo pvp skills are you wont get chars that are not interested in your style of play to do it for your personal amusement. Characters in NPC corps are in NPC corps for many reasons, one of them being the immunity they get while in high sec. This is obviously an exploit of game mechanics (using the same logic as you here) and thus all players in NPC corps should be booted, or we should be allowed to decc NPC corps. Fact is that many freighter pilots in NPC corps are in there in order to avoid the mechanics of Empire War, and remain safe. The ONLY way to get around this is to suicide gank them. If mechanics where introduced that prevented characters in NPC corps from flying freighters I don't believe anyone would stand against your efforts to give freighters slots or whatever. We need to be able to kill freighters. Even in high sec. Even those in NPC corps. Don't you see that? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 20:42:00 - [415] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 09/05/2007 18:26:10 The only problem here is people crying out for CCP to help them when they refuse to help themselves. This is not unbalanced. ....... Can you even start to imagine how NPC corp freighters becomming invunerable in "safe" space would upset the balance of the game? How would you even begin to stop the logistics of your enemies if they could just resupply using a /pvpoff flag? Well i applaud your post. However - Your alliance - and indeed almost all Alliances - Do not declare war on each other - so dont use the tactics you suggest. Its an old school tie - funny handshake style cartel. Going on . SKUNK
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:07:00 - [416] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 09/05/2007 18:26:10 The only problem here is people crying out for CCP to help them when they refuse to help themselves. This is not unbalanced. ....... Can you even start to imagine how NPC corp freighters becomming invunerable in "safe" space would upset the balance of the game? How would you even begin to stop the logistics of your enemies if they could just resupply using a /pvpoff flag? Well i applaud your post. However - Your alliance - and indeed almost all Alliances - Do not declare war on each other - so dont use the tactics you suggest. Its an old school tie - funny handshake style cartel. Going on . SKUNK Power politics at the sovreign level. Welcome to player empires. Did you genuinely think that all 0.0 Alliances would do was gather up forces to go mosh across the stars until they're fully expended and collapse? Most real empires die from invasion only after they begin to collapse from internal decay and disinterest once they rise above the day to day struggle to survive. BoB and some of the big boys in the 0.0 arena are in their Pax Romana days, give time a chance to burn some of their leadership out. All good things come to an end. Just be ready to play Theodoric when the time comes. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Clair Bear	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:24:00 - [417] Originally by: Ki An We need to be able to kill freighters. Even in high sec. Even those in NPC corps. Don't you see that? /Ki Who's this wee? Are we now royalty? Are we speaking for ourselves and our tapeworms? Anyway, I don't think you'd see too many people arguing that suicide ganking should remain a viable option, it's just the risk should be related to reward. At this point the attacker investment is low and the outcome is nearly certain. Low risk, huge reward. I'd say that's not working as intended. While I'm not sure what the fix should be, but I am sure one is definitely needed. BTW, there are in-game mechanics to help with freighter transport. Use an alt in a rookie ship to summon CONCORD to every gate in your path by repeatedly suiciding. That way concord response will be instant, and may keep you alive longer than the laughable support ideas presented. I believe shooting a can does not cause a massive sec hit, so your alt should be usable for a very, very long time. Even a -10 sec rating Ibis should still be functional in this capacity. And if enough freighter pilots partake of this strategy all gates among popular travel routes should be well stocked with CONCORD. As far as transporting t2 bpos -- well, I must admit the most I've ever hauled was probably 500M in one go. An order of magnitude less than your problem. But try this hauler out -- Myrmidon, 5x LSE II, 2x WCS, 4x inertial stab, 1x proto cloak. 20k shield or so, turns on a dime, warps fast. Should survive that gank squad for 5 seconds plus however long it takes them to decloak you, lock and get the drones to get into range. Many tech2 ships would be even better. (e.g., Vulture, any recon...)
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:43:00 - [418] Originally by: Clair Bear Who's this wee? Are we now royalty? Are we speaking for ourselves and our tapeworms? 'We' means all of us, which you probably understood, but decided to be an ass about it anyway. Apologies if you didn't understand it out of sheer stupidity. Originally by: Clair Bear Anyway, I don't think you'd see too many people arguing that suicide ganking should remain a viable option, And yet it's a quite common argument in these threads. If you just take a little bit of time and read them through you will see many people arguing that high sec is supposed to be safe, and that suicide ganking is an exploit of game mechanics. Originally by: Clair Bear it's just the risk should be related to reward. Yes, and in my opinion it's up to the pilots themselves to introduce risk into the equation. Far too many rely on CCP to do everything for them. Of all the people dismissing the remote rep, scout or escort options, how many do you think have actually tried it? Even on SiSi? Originally by: Clair Bear At this point the attacker investment is low and the outcome is nearly certain. Low risk, huge reward. I'd say that's not working as intended. While I'm not sure what the fix should be, but I am sure one is definitely needed. It's working as intended. Apparently we'll see a change regarding drones if we are to believe what people are saying about SiSi now, but that will just up the ante a bit, and with enough alpha, freighters will still be very much gankable. As they should. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
NIkis Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E	Posted - 2007.05.10 23:17:00 - [419] Funny thing.. people cry for some drone love and (maybe the same) people (ab)use drones for such tactics. If drones were to be attacked and destroyed by concord aswell (as they should be) this whole thread would be a non-issue.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.10 23:35:00 - [420] Originally by: NIkis Funny thing.. people cry for some drone love and (maybe the same) people (ab)use drones for such tactics. If drones were to be attacked and destroyed by concord aswell (as they should be) this whole thread would be a non-issue. Rumor has it, that drones are getting tweaked to be concord wackable... or jammable.. something like that. A few posts above referring to the test server and changes brewing.
Dolika Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.12 19:33:00 - [421] Well; until CCP fixes the freighters im out of T2 business. I didn't sign up to this game to be ganked in highsec empire on a daily basis. Guess im back to hauling trade **** around ;) Loads of isk to be made there so the children wont starve again. Guess yu'll be buying isotopes and similar stuff from me again ;) @ CCP: When will you fix the freighters?
SE1X	Posted - 2007.05.12 20:07:00 - [422] Edited by: SE1X on 12/05/2007 20:06:17 Ouch Pew pew pew Another one bites the dust!
weebls	Posted - 2007.05.12 20:09:00 - [423] I don't believe you can protect yourself in a freighter from a domi/drone gank as the game currently stands, even using an escort. Certainly armor repping and shield transporting are useless because of the high focussed dps and the very short fight. Battleship escort with smartbombs is problematic because you'd have to be right on top of the freighter all the time, which isn't really possible. Also it's very difficult to do anything at all once the fight is engaged due to the extreme lag from ships, drones, and concord. The only thing that seems to work fine through the lag are the drones. The gank squad can warp in without warning and the fight is so quick and the lag so bad that I think the best you could do is maybe make it somewhat more difficult from a timing standpoint on the gank squad. Currently it does not seem feasible to protect yourself if you are in a freighter in hi-sec, even with an escort.
Thrawnfl	Posted - 2007.05.12 20:35:00 - [424] I can bet good money this is fully supported by CCP, just like POS Bowling with titans/ms. Aka its part of the game mechanics.
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.05.12 21:11:00 - [425] Originally by: SE1X Edited by: SE1X on 12/05/2007 20:06:17 Ouch Pew pew pew Another one bites the dust! good
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.12 23:01:00 - [426] Wow, the debate has been raging for three weeks now, and two freighters lost. Yeah, real game breaking problem guys. However, if the rumored concord vs. drones change is what CCP decides on, then I guess I'm ok with that. Then we can get back to the old debate about you hiding in a noob corp, and how to boot you out of that.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.13 03:43:00 - [427] Originally by: Siege Wow, the debate has been raging for three weeks now, and two freighters lost. That we know of. Several pops may have been recorded that don't get on the forums. Not everyone visits the forums, some people actually play the game. --
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 04:48:00 - [428] Edited by: Le Skunk on 13/05/2007 04:46:30 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 09/05/2007 18:26:10 The only problem here is people crying out for CCP to help them when they refuse to help themselves. This is not unbalanced. ....... Can you even start to imagine how NPC corp freighters becomming invunerable in "safe" space would upset the balance of the game? How would you even begin to stop the logistics of your enemies if they could just resupply using a /pvpoff flag? Well i applaud your post. However - Your alliance - and indeed almost all Alliances - Do not declare war on each other - so dont use the tactics you suggest. Its an old school tie - funny handshake style cartel. Going on . SKUNK Power politics at the sovreign level. Welcome to player empires. Did you genuinely think that all 0.0 Alliances would do was gather up forces to go mosh across the stars until they're fully expended and collapse? Most real empires die from invasion only after they begin to collapse from internal decay and disinterest once they rise above the day to day struggle to survive. BoB and some of the big boys in the 0.0 arena are in their Pax Romana days, give time a chance to burn some of their leadership out. All good things come to an end. Just be ready to play Theodoric when the time comes. Well kindof. But not really. As ive said before Any alliance worth its salt would have an offshoot corp wardeccing its big enemys. Even 5 - 10 pilots scooting round empire would create a logistical nightmare for the enemies. One good hauler kill would pay for the wars. Catch a freighter - youve dented the war effort.Catch a few BS - that less BS at the front shooting at you. The 5-10 pilots arnt really needed out in 0.0 anyway with all the capital stuff going on. And if they ever are - they can be set to blue and withdrawn into 0.0. Think it would be great fun for the pilots as well to.Are enough alliance on both sides to priovide a decent amount of targets to shoot at. Some mid skilled pilots (say 20mill sp) who cant be used for caps would be ideal. This isnt dont for some reason. Again - I think its purely down to some old school tie **** going on. This 'war for eve' is a bit 'queensbury rules' for my liking. SKUNK
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:10:00 - [429] Alternative defense for freighters. Coordinate with other traders, industrial corps, pirates, and bored players. Everyone creates an alt (or uses main). Warp to gate near hub (or along route), shoot random player with or without intention of killing them. CONCORD should respond and are now loitering at the gate, preventing any freighter ganking at that gate. Repeat for all relevant gates. Noob ships are free and the security hit for shooting a person is minor. Sales: Capital Ships \| Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM
Lord Bleu The Xizor Cartel Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 09:48:00 - [430] My 'personal' thoughts and not connected in any way to my corp or alliance. As a pvp'er I understand eve is tough and should be tough. I also understand that this here is a game and generally has to apeal to many different people with different appetites. Its all very well for the hard core pvp'ers to rant on about how nowhere should be 100% safe, but I disagree. From what I see, there are plenty mechanisms in the game to allow all out combat for those who want it. Low sec, 0.0 and the good ole war dec'ing system allows players to satisfy their pvp needs. On the other hand there are those who dont play this game for pvp and I'm quite comfortable with that and the idea that these players should be able to get on with the game without being forced in to pvp and possibly having their entire fortune wiped out in one encounter with a gank fleet whilst having absolutely zero defence. I can only imagine how gutting it would be to sit in a 1 billion plus ship that's being attacked knowing there isnt even a module to can click that would help the chances of survivability. Freighter pilots generally make a choice. Stay in hisec = low risk low profit, lowsec = hi risk high profit. Now it seems that the new craze of freighter popping is getting a little silly and I cant help wondering how many people are doing it for profit, and how many are doing it just becuase they can. Having read through this thread, I'm yet to see a valid post that convinces me that freighter ganking in empire should be as easy as it is. The irony of course is CCP called the freighter changes 'Freighter Love' >> The Xizor Cartel << >> Currently Recruiting Mature PVP'ers <<
Ozzie Asrail Exploited	Posted - 2007.05.13 12:32:00 - [431] All the "solutions" in this thread are pretty pathetic to be honest. Would you and 15 of your friends like to spend all your game time escorting a corpm8's frieghter around. All day everyday. It's boring as crap and no-one would want to do it. The game is supposed to be fun. Hopefully the jamming\killing of drones by concord will help even this up alot. -----
Marvel Master Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.05.13 13:18:00 - [432] Hello, my personal view as extreme pvpler. Its simple. High Sec Ganking from frighters should not be possible. Marvel
Karsten Caldari LoneWolf Mining	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:28:00 - [433] Edited by: Karsten on 13/05/2007 21:55:44 Edited by: Karsten on 13/05/2007 21:55:15 Originally by: Marvel Master Hello, .... High Sec Ganking from frighters should not be possible. Marvel signed Karsten "All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery"
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 21:44:00 - [434] Any more so called 'extreme pvpers' who have trade alts they want to protect want to drop out of the woodwork. SKUNK
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.14 02:37:00 - [435] ganking should not be allowed in high sec ccp should show up with ships right away and blast the offenders instantly instead of 30 seconds later and slowly in 0.5 anyone taking other peoples things should also instantly blow up so they learn their lesson we should have a /pvp option for anywhere 0.6+ so that we dont get attacked when flying alone in freighters for 45 jumps from one end of safe security to the other end war decs should take 2 weeks to initiate into high security (but 24 hours for low so that you dont lose security rating and can confine your victims faster) and they should end within 24 hours of that initiation or 24 hours after the last kill wichever comes first ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.14 03:10:00 - [436] then all the carebears could dance in stations all night and come outside of them all day ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Lord Bleu The Xizor Cartel Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 08:39:00 - [437] Originally by: Le Skunk Any more so called 'extreme pvpers' who have trade alts they want to protect want to drop out of the woodwork. SKUNK Its more about personal views. I've always subscribed to the dangerous / safe zone, pvp vs pve / player choice philosopy in online games, more so when there are ample mechanics in game already to allow everyone to have their cake and eat it. Unless of course a game is made to be 100% pvp but developers realised early on that they need to cater to all corners of the market in order to make a profit. With low sec, 0.0 and the war dec facility I see no valid argument to suicide freighters that aint in any of these categories. That is just my personal oppinion. Would I do it? Ironically, yes. If the orders come down that that is what we're going to do I'll do it becuase right now its valid & legal, but this here is a debate about whether it should be and again, I say no, I dont think it should. >> The Xizor Cartel << >> Currently Recruiting Mature PVP'ers <<
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.14 08:47:00 - [438] Originally by: Lord Bleu Originally by: Le Skunk Any more so called 'extreme pvpers' who have trade alts they want to protect want to drop out of the woodwork. SKUNK Its more about personal views. I've always subscribed to the dangerous / safe zone, pvp vs pve / player choice philosopy in online games, more so when there are ample mechanics in game already to allow everyone to have their cake and eat it. Unless of course a game is made to be 100% pvp but developers realised early on that they need to cater to all corners of the market in order to make a profit. With low sec, 0.0 and the war dec facility I see no valid argument to suicide freighters that aint in any of these categories. That is just my personal oppinion. Would I do it? Ironically, yes. If the orders come down that that is what we're going to do I'll do it becuase right now its valid & legal, but this here is a debate about whether it should be and again, I say no, I dont think it should. The argument would be that certain people move corps/hide in the so called 'noob corps' to avoid wardecs. If wardecs are designed to make high sec temporarily 'unsafe' - then these people make themselves invunerable. Thus the only recourse to action some people feel they have - is to suicide gank. Ive never done it myself. And have only seen it done once - in seven months of high sec gate camping. But i think taking away the possibilty would be another nail in EvE's coffin. SKUNK
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:03:00 - [439] Edited by: fire 59 on 14/05/2007 10:03:48 Why don't people just use scouts ahead of themselves to see if theres a bajillion domis or whatever waiting to gank someone. Or, gasp, don't carry soooo much fat lootz all in one trip, you know, split it down into a few trips. Will cut into your whatevers but seriously, like hauler ganking, until people start engaging there brains and use the tools available to survive , they deserve to die. Concorde is not there to keep you alive at all times, it is there to kill the attacker and arrives depending on te sec status of the system. Speaking as someone who has moved valuables through empire and never ever been ganked ( attempted but used my brain and survived ), i don't see any problem with ganking in empire. And i don't do it myself before someone makes a smart comment, although tbh, i just may if people are really that dumb in empire to carry so much in one trip and walking blind Edit - Since my 1st corp in eve i have always found empire more dangerous than 0.0, you never know who may be planning what so if you plan on the worst happening instead of trying to just squeeze profits before brains, you are already half way to winning. Same principle really as for planning for battle, its usually decided before folks undock, the rest is left to the players exp andknowledge BoB vs the coalition of family value's
Ares Lightfeather	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:17:00 - [440] Quote: Why don't people just use scouts ahead of themselves to see if theres a bajillion domis or whatever waiting to gank someone. This argument has been countered before, what if the gankers use a scout too ? Quote: Or, gasp, don't carry soooo much fat lootz all in one trip, you know, split it down into a few trips. Will cut into your whatevers but seriously, like hauler ganking, until people start engaging there brains and use the tools available to survive , they deserve to die. Then tell me : what is the point of having a freighter if it's supposed to be empty all the time ? Do you fly around your battleships with 2 out of 8 guns ?
Mekarae Amarr House Mekarae	Posted - 2007.05.14 10:35:00 - [441] Originally by: fire 59 ...until people start engaging their brains and use the tools available to survive , they deserve to die. lol. Using ones brains... that's a radical concept . The people who ganked the OP obviously scanned the contents of the freighter or wouldn't have risked so many BS's. 15 battleships is quite a bit of money to risk. A simple 'alt' in a shuttle would have alerted you to the danger. Eve is very severe on mistakes and you, the OP, made one by not having a simple scout one jump ahead of you (and a corpmate webbing you also helps). High-sec is NOT meant to be 100% safe EVER. -------------------------- "...strength through aristocratic rule."
Kanitsu Hiyaboosa	Posted - 2007.05.14 11:46:00 - [442] Sooo. The big fat ass ships got ganked in empire... lol... love it . I dont see any problems with the game mechs there.
Augeas	Posted - 2007.05.14 12:17:00 - [443] Quote: All the "solutions" in this thread are pretty pathetic to be honest.Would you and 15 of your friends like to spend all your game time escorting a corpm8's frieghter around. All day everyday. It's boring as crap and no-one would want to do it. The game is supposed to be fun. How many times...? Nano-Scorpion with ECM Burst. It won't break all the drones' locks, but it should break enough for the freighter to survive. If you're unsure, use 2 of them. And yes, the Scorps will likely get Concorded as well. So what?
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.14 17:14:00 - [444] Come on people... its good to debate, but there is only one correct answer here... and I think you all know what it is. Freighter ganking should never happen. Whine and cry all you want, but someone carrying 16bil of goods, in an npc corp, in high sec... has the right to not have his hard earned assets ganked away. The frieghter pilot has taken every precaution he has available to make him the safest as he can be. In Eve we HAVE to move things around... we are constantly moving, and in large bulks this the game's desinged way of doing so. Whether or not you feel the right to gank and destroy a players entire life is not the point... the point is HE has the right to move. Concord gives him that right to be safe, and frankly ganking him with 20+ battlships is exploting Concords right to keep him safe. Bottomline, go ahead and attack, but CCP needs to make it clear if your vicitim dies, then everyone held responsible on the gank is deemed exploting what Concord is meant to provide... safety. Everyone who ganks like this needs to be banned. Its pure simple game mechanics and game courtesy. An individual player has the right to move anything and everything in high-sec without the worry of losing it. Plain as the nose on your faces... CCP can't act on these current agressions, cuz they are within game mechanics, however, all they need to say is that if ANYONE hinders the task of Concord to protect a player, then they are all banned. I'd honestly go as far to rid the game of Concord and disable all locks on players in high sec other than wars. That would even help with lag... win win! Sorry if I upset you piewats, but if you want risk, go for risk... if you think this game is risk vs reward, then find your risk, don't gank. You know it, we all know it. We all have the right to move and keep our gaming property.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.14 18:01:00 - [445] Originally by: Lord Frost Come on people... its good to debate, but there is only one correct answer here... and I think you all know what it is. Freighter ganking should never happen. Whine and cry all you want, but someone carrying 16bil of goods, in an npc corp, in high sec... has the right to not have his hard earned assets ganked away. The frieghter pilot has taken every precaution he has available to make him the safest as he can be. In Eve we HAVE to move things around... we are constantly moving, and in large bulks this the game's desinged way of doing so. Whether or not you feel the right to gank and destroy a players entire life is not the point... the point is HE has the right to move. Concord gives him that right to be safe, and frankly ganking him with 20+ battlships is exploting Concords right to keep him safe. Bottomline, go ahead and attack, but CCP needs to make it clear if your vicitim dies, then everyone held responsible on the gank is deemed exploting what Concord is meant to provide... safety. Everyone who ganks like this needs to be banned. Its pure simple game mechanics and game courtesy. An individual player has the right to move anything and everything in high-sec without the worry of losing it. Plain as the nose on your faces... CCP can't act on these current agressions, cuz they are within game mechanics, however, all they need to say is that if ANYONE hinders the task of Concord to protect a player, then they are all banned. I'd honestly go as far to rid the game of Concord and disable all locks on players in high sec other than wars. That would even help with lag... win win! Sorry if I upset you piewats, but if you want risk, go for risk... if you think this game is risk vs reward, then find your risk, don't gank. You know it, we all know it. We all have the right to move and keep our gaming property. You're joking right? If you aren't, that's the single most misguided post I've read on these forums, with the possible exception on the New Jenny Spitfire's posts. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.14 18:15:00 - [446] Edited by: Drizit on 14/05/2007 18:23:49 Originally by: Mekarae The people who ganked the OP obviously scanned the contents of the freighter or wouldn't have risked so many BS's. 15 battleships is quite a bit of money to risk. A simple 'alt' in a shuttle would have alerted you to the danger. "Risked" so many BS's? What risk? The insurance payout on a Domi is often more than they actually cost. A risk would have been not to be able to collect insurance on Concord ganks. That would have meant that the Freighter had to be full to make a profit on it. ATM ganking an empty Freighter is no risk at all, you still get the isk back for your BS's you lost. It's the Freighter pilot that loses 700 million plus even if they are insured. The Domi pilots should never be paid insurance and cargo scanners should not work on a Freighter. You then stand to lose unless the freighter had a substantial cargo to make it worthwhile. Logistics and spies could tell you if the Freighter is going to be hauling anything worthwhile or not. If you indiscriminately gank, you then take a risk and I thought that was what this game was about. At present, the risk is zero while the reward is extreme and that's why this highsec ganking continues. If you want to hire mercs to do this as the posts here have indicated, you wuld have to re-imburse their losses as well as pay their fees. Therefore, it would have to be a good reason to do it if you only considered the cargo as a bonus. --
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.14 19:16:00 - [447] Originally by: Ki An You're joking right? If you aren't, that's the single most misguided post I've read on these forums, with the possible exception on the New Jenny Spitfire's posts. /Ki LOL... why should someone who is moving his entire assests in a safe npc corp, thru a safe high sec, have to worry about losing everything due to griefers and gankers who exploit Concord's protective safety shield? "Misguided"? ... not quite. Whats the difference in tanking Concord to render them useless, and then outnumbering Concord to render them useless? Its just another tactic to edge around the main objective, which is to simply gank and grief a player for billions. Whether you lose your ganking ship or not, doesn't matter if the outcome is the same for the victim. Isk and richness is so abundant now, losing ships this way is a minimal loss even if you fail to kill your intended victim. Thus... I provided facts and info... unlike your response.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.14 19:22:00 - [448] Edited by: Ki An on 14/05/2007 19:22:24 Originally by: Lord Frost LOL... why should someone who is moving his entire assests in a safe npc corp, thru a safe high sec, have to worry about losing everything due to griefers and gankers who exploit Concord's protective safety shield? Because NPC corps aren't "safe" and high sec isn't "safe"? The fact that you think they are is why you die. Originally by: Lord Frost "Misguided"? ... not quite. Whats the difference in tanking Concord to render them useless, and then outnumbering Concord to render them useless? Its just another tactic to edge around the main objective, which is to simply gank and grief a player for billions. Whether you lose your ganking ship or not, doesn't matter if the outcome is the same for the victim. Isk and richness is so abundant now, losing ships this way is a minimal loss even if you fail to kill your intended victim. Yes, it's a tactic to kill stuff in high sec. It's a tactic that is allowed by CCP. It's not even a new tactic, and it has been allowed ever since it was first performed. That you don't like the tactic has no bearing on it's validity as a tactic. Originally by: Lord Frost Thus... I provided facts and info... unlike your response. You provided biased assumptions and lies. /Ki /Edit: Spelling Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.14 19:35:00 - [449] Originally by: Ki An Because NPC corps aren't "safe" and high sec isn't "safe"? The fact that you think they are is why you die. Empire is safe... its the safest place in Eve. Which is why it shouldnt be the grounds where you can lose EVERYTHING to gankers. Once again, it comes down to equal balance to equal tactics. You can't ask Empire traders to run jumps with support ships everyday. But yet its far easy and okay for a group to beat up on 1 player once in a while... just pick and choose who and where. Quote: Yes, it's a tactic to kill stuff in high sec. It's a tactic that is allowed by CCP. It's not even a new tactic, and it has been allowed ever since it was first performed. That you don't like the tactic has no bearing on it's validity as a tactic. You failed to get my point... you missed it quite humorously and attempted to validate yourself. If tactic A has outcome X which is an exploit... and tactic B has outcome X, shouldn't that be an exploit? Saying its been allowed forever, isn't an answer. Many expolits and nerfs have been here a long time, before change was made. You, my friend, need to take time to learn and honor this game as a whole and not for your selfish gains.
Kypud	Posted - 2007.05.14 20:07:00 - [450] Originally by: Lord Frost Which is why it shouldnt be the grounds where you can lose EVERYTHING to gankers. You can lose everything if you put all your eggs in one basket. All your stuff in one ship is pretty damned stupid. Quote: If tactic A has outcome X which is an exploit... and tactic B has outcome X, shouldn't that be an exploit? Tactic A - manipulate the game to duplicate cash. Outcome: more cash. Exploit Tactic B - kill NPC characters. Outcome: more cash. Exploit? Its the how you get somewhere that makes it an exploit, not the outcome.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.14 20:32:00 - [451] Originally by: Lord Frost LOL... why should someone who is moving his entire assests in a safe npc corp, thru a safe high sec, have to worry about losing everything due to griefers and gankers who exploit Concord's protective safety shield? wow i thought you were just ignorant when you replied to the cloakers thread go away and quit eve we dont need your kind around here ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.14 20:35:00 - [452] Originally by: Lord Frost You, my friend, need to take time to learn and honor this game as a whole and not for your selfish gains. ive seen you use this line on 3+ threads you might need to stop posting that when what you advocate is 100% safety and no leniency for any bandits or assassins in this game you might actually want to find out what eve really is because pirates bandits assassins killers thieves looters spies and merciless wars are what eve is about ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.14 21:15:00 - [453] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Ki An Because NPC corps aren't "safe" and high sec isn't "safe"? The fact that you think they are is why you die. Empire is safe... its the safest place in Eve. Which is why it shouldnt be the grounds where you can lose EVERYTHING to gankers. Once again, it comes down to equal balance to equal tactics. You can't ask Empire traders to run jumps with support ships everyday. But yet its far easy and okay for a group to beat up on 1 player once in a while... just pick and choose who and where. Quote: Yes, it's a tactic to kill stuff in high sec. It's a tactic that is allowed by CCP. It's not even a new tactic, and it has been allowed ever since it was first performed. That you don't like the tactic has no bearing on it's validity as a tactic. You failed to get my point... you missed it quite humorously and attempted to validate yourself. If tactic A has outcome X which is an exploit... and tactic B has outcome X, shouldn't that be an exploit? Saying its been allowed forever, isn't an answer. Many expolits and nerfs have been here a long time, before change was made. You, my friend, need to take time to learn and honor this game as a whole and not for your selfish gains. Ehehe... you're funny L2P /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.14 23:47:00 - [454] Edited by: Gamesguy on 14/05/2007 23:45:19 Wow, so much ignorance in one thread... For all you idiots saying "remote reps dont help", you're dead WRONG. A single apoc with a ab, all cap modules, and 3 t1 ccc(doesnt cost all that much to setup tbh) and 8 large remotes will cap out in about 30 seconds, after which it can run about half the reps forever. 8 large remotes repair a little over 800 armor/second, assuming ogre drones, thats around 1300 actual DPS negated since the attackers will likely be using ogres. If the gankers are using berserkers, they lose some DPS(ogres have higher dps) and the berserkers do terrible against the shield, which you will be remote boosting. These figures dont take into account maint drones either. The average domi with t1 heavies(interfacing 4 domi 4) will do about 300 DPS, which is consistant with the outbreak video btw, that means each one of your apocs will negate 4 domis, entirely. Bring along 5 and the gankers would have a bring like 40 domis to successfully gank your freighter. Bring along a griffon with a t1 ecm burst and they'd have to bring 80... In the extremely unlikely event your ft dies, a couple of combat fitted BS can easilly guard the wreck. As long as you stuff everything outside a BS into a freight container, or better yet create a transport contract from an alt to yourself so everything's in plastic wrap, nothing but another ft or indy can loot it, so you wont end up with a shuttle flipping the can problem. If the looting ft tries to pre-align, bump it, or simply park one(or several) of your remoe repping BSes on top of the can so the ft cant possibly do a loot+insta warp.
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:45:00 - [455] Edited by: Calel on 15/05/2007 12:48:55 I am a freighter pilot. It took me almost 6 months to make enough ISK to buy the ship becuase I am a casual player. I am not in an NPC corp but I do avoid low sec. I am a trader by nature and I love playing eve and having fun tyring to make a living from hauling goods. During my time as a freighter pilot I've made some ISK but no were near close to the value of my ship. I respect the PVP'ers and I respect the fact they have a 'large' proportion of space in which to quench their PVP thirst which is generally off limits to me in my freighter. They have thier fun and I have mine. I dont interfere with them but those involved in ganking want to interfere with me. Due to the recent hype about freighter ganks, I've not taken the freighter out becuase I have absolutely no defence against such tactics and to lose my main asset would literally be 'game over Calel' as I dont have the time nor the stomach to try to build up my eve life again. Since more often or not I log on and fly solo and due to the fact a 20 jump run in a freighter takes an extremely long time, scouts are not an option. It takes over a minute for a freighter to even get into warp. Its all very well to think of freighter pilots as rich greedy pilots attached to mega corps or alliances, but there's also a large portion of us who are trying to make ends meet and the loss of our ship would be the end of our eve career. I didnt post this to be flamed, called a carebare or to provoke hostility, I posted simply to add an insight into one freighter pilots eve life so that you can at least make up your own mind as to whether ganking a seriously expensive ship that has no defence in high sec is acceptable. My view is simple. Eve is a game that appeals to people for many different reasons and that is what makes it so succesfull. If you want PVP, just go into low sec and within a minute, you got it. Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire. S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Ferreus Malukar The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:51:00 - [456] The best idea so far was removing insurance if you are the attacker. Just love it! --- This is my main. There are many like it but this one is mine. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my main is useless. Without my main I am useless.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:52:00 - [457] "Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire." Non-consensual PvP is explicitly a part of EVE, by the deliberate design of the developers. It says so right there in the FAQ. So you are quite simply wrong on this point. If you can fly a freighter you can also easily skill for Transports, which can fit quite a few modules, and use those to move the high-value items. Reserve the freighter for it's intended purpose of carrying a sufficient bulk of relatively low value items to make the trip worthwhile.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:53:00 - [458] Originally by: Calel stuff You know, if this was any other game I would have sympathy for you, but you have by own admission broken the number one rule in EvE: Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. Casual player or not, this rule applies to everyone, and you're just going to have to accept the fact that you can lose any ship you undock in, anywhere in EvE. If you cannot afford to lose your freighter, stick to t1 haulers until you can. This may sound harsh, but more and more people are forgetting that EvE is supposed to be harsh. Originally by: Calel Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire. They can... in WoW. In EvE they can't. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:56:00 - [459] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Calel stuff You know, if this was any other game I would have sympathy for you, but you have by own admission broken the number one rule in EvE: Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. Casual player or not, this rule applies to everyone, and you're just going to have to accept the fact that you can lose any ship you undock in, anywhere in EvE. If you cannot afford to lose your freighter, stick to t1 haulers until you can. This may sound harsh, but more and more people are forgetting that EvE is supposed to be harsh. Originally by: Calel Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire. They can... in WoW. In EvE they can't. /Ki WOW's a different game. We're talking about eve, or am I on the wrong boards? S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
lusifar	Posted - 2007.05.15 13:06:00 - [460] tis just stupid beeing able to pop people in highsec and THEN looting there wrack.. they should atleast let concord remove the wrack almost instantly and send it to the owner. it is the "polise" you know.... not doing a very good job at all
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 13:09:00 - [461] Originally by: Calel WOW's a different game. We're talking about eve, or am I on the wrong boards? No, you're on the right boards, you just don't quite understand the game you are playing. EvE = non-consentual PvP. You want consentual PvP. That's why I hinted that maybe WoW would be a better game for you to play. I'm not dissing WoW, it's just not EvE, as you already said. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Saffin	Posted - 2007.05.15 13:26:00 - [462] In past 3 years of playing this game, this comes up time and time again. People believing high sec is safe. This is not the case, concord are not police. Think of them as vigilantes not police. Remember concord did not even exist in this game in the beginning (that was before my time though). There is no expliot as far as i am aware to doing anything to anybody in high sec as long as you pay the price. The price is you MUST to be destroyed by concord. If you manage to not be destroyed by concord you are exploiting. But if you pay the concord price you are free to do what you like when you like to who you like in high sec space. Concord dont prevent crime they just enact revenge for the victim. Saf
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:35:00 - [463] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Calel WOW's a different game. We're talking about eve, or am I on the wrong boards? No, you're on the right boards, you just don't quite understand the game you are playing. EvE = non-consentual PvP. You want consentual PvP. That's why I hinted that maybe WoW would be a better game for you to play. I'm not dissing WoW, it's just not EvE, as you already said. /Ki Wow is a fantasy based RPG based on the ground. Eve is a Sci-fi game based in space, two completely different genre's. To assume to know my tastes is rather ignorant and to assume that everyone who plays eve that does not PVP should play WOW is, well, equally as ignorant. I realise this is a futile argument because for everyone saying eve should be open pvp there's someone who disagrees. At the end of the day CCP will make the call and we'll all have to live with it. Currently though the system is not balanced If freighter ganking is to be kept valid, then there needs to be changes that give the freighter pilot more of a chance and a greater penalty for those who gank. Maybe a small DDD for the freighter pilot that works in empire. Why not? You did say no where was safe! S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:43:00 - [464] Originally by: Calel Wow is a fantasy based RPG based on the ground. Eve is a Sci-fi game based in space, two completely different genre's. To assume to know my tastes is rather ignorant and to assume that everyone who plays eve that does not PVP should play WOW is, well, equally as ignorant. I am not professing to know which kind of game you want, but I can make the assumption that you are looking for one with consentual PvP. That's fairly obvious as you said it yourself in this very thread. I pointed out that WoW has consentual PvP. There are other games that have it too, but I am struggling to come up with a Sci-Fi one. Perhaps SWG? Originally by: Calel I realise this is a futile argument because for everyone saying eve should be open pvp there's someone who disagrees. At the end of the day CCP will make the call and we'll all have to live with it. CCP made their call in 2003, and still some people refuse to live with it. Why can't you practice what you preach and just... live with it? Originally by: Calel Currently though the system is not balanced If freighter ganking is to be kept valid, then there needs to be changes that give the freighter pilot more of a chance and a greater penalty for those who gank. Maybe a small DDD for the freighter pilot that works in empire. Why not? You did say no where was safe! Yeah, bring it on. Will be much easier to take down the freighter when you have Concord on your own side /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
ChironV Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:48:00 - [465] Although I am still of the mind that new players of a certain skillpoint should not be able to be aggro'ed, if you have reached the point of purchasing or flying a big-bottom'ed freighter, all bets are off at that level. As a rule when transporting high value cargos in my haulers, I always have a scout, second account cov'ops, merc for hire, or buddy. I always check local, have safe spots in every system, and fly the paranoid skys even in High Sec. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:54:00 - [466] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Calel Wow is a fantasy based RPG based on the ground. Eve is a Sci-fi game based in space, two completely different genre's. To assume to know my tastes is rather ignorant and to assume that everyone who plays eve that does not PVP should play WOW is, well, equally as ignorant. I am not professing to know which kind of game you want, but I can make the assumption that you are looking for one with consentual PvP. That's fairly obvious as you said it yourself in this very thread. I pointed out that WoW has consentual PvP. There are other games that have it too, but I am struggling to come up with a Sci-Fi one. Perhaps SWG? Originally by: Calel I realise this is a futile argument because for everyone saying eve should be open pvp there's someone who disagrees. At the end of the day CCP will make the call and we'll all have to live with it. CCP made their call in 2003, and still some people refuse to live with it. Why can't you practice what you preach and just... live with it? Originally by: Calel Currently though the system is not balanced If freighter ganking is to be kept valid, then there needs to be changes that give the freighter pilot more of a chance and a greater penalty for those who gank. Maybe a small DDD for the freighter pilot that works in empire. Why not? You did say no where was safe! Yeah, bring it on. Will be much easier to take down the freighter when you have Concord on your own side /Ki Having played eve for 3 years I'm happy where I am, but thanks for the game reviews, I'll keep them in mind should I eve leave this game I love and have a great deal of fun in. As you are obviously not aware, CCP introduced a 'feature' in the last patch that makes freighters drop loot. That was last patch, not 2003. This 'feature' is what has led to the recent craze. In answer to your last 'question' I wont live with it becuase at the moment the system is extremely unballanced. There is no defence against a high sec gank and not enough of a deterrent to make those involved think twice. I'm sure you can live with it, but then again, your not the one cutting your way through space in a slow, expensive, fat ass ship that with no defence now are you? That's my final say on this, see ya in another thread. S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:01:00 - [467] Originally by: Calel Having played eve for 3 years I'm happy where I am, but thanks for the game reviews, I'll keep them in mind should I eve leave this game I love and have a great deal of fun in. You've played EvE for 3 years? Really? Thought you'd learned something in that amount of time, but seems you haven't. Originally by: Calel As you are obviously not aware, CCP introduced a 'feature' in the last patch that makes freighters drop loot. That was last patch, not 2003. This 'feature' is what has led to the recent craze. As you are obviously not aware, freighters were always supposed to drop loot, but due to technical limitations (namely the intense lag it caused) CCP was unable to implement this. This last patch they fixed the issue, and it is now working as it always was supposed to. Originally by: Calel In answer to your last 'question' I wont live with it becuase at the moment the system is extremely unballanced. There is no defence against a high sec gank and not enough of a deterrent to make those involved think twice. Then don't go telling other people that "we're going to have to live with it", because obviously you can't. YOU think it's unbalanced. YOU think there's no defence. Until someone has actually TRIED any of the defensive measures mentioned in this thread and PROVED that they don't work by REPEATED TESTING, you don't have a friggin idea if it works or not. On paper it does work. It's up to you to try it out in game. Originally by: Calel I'm sure you can live with it, but then again, your not the one cutting your way through space in a slow, expensive, fat ass ship that with no defence now are you? I can live with it, yeah. Can't stand all these whiney threads though, and I am sure neither can CCP, so I'd say we're gonna see another carebear upgrade to the game in the near future. Your sort sure knows that the only way to get your way is to whine, whine and whine again. Originally by: Calel That's my final say on this, see ya in another thread. k thx bai /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Alrich	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:15:00 - [468] Edited by: Alrich on 15/05/2007 15:15:43 Originally by: Calel stuff althou i am not pvp'ing it sounds to me as you dont like the idea of non-consensual pvp. this little carebear (=me) would quit this game the moment ccp makes highsec into fullsec. there is nothing better in this game than having my nonpvp-fitted ship engaged in fighting (be it suicide in high or normal in lo or no) ki an posted the idea of wow based on your distaste for non-consensual pvp, not the fact that one is a sci-fi and the other fantasy
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:17:00 - [469] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Calel Having played eve for 3 years I'm happy where I am, but thanks for the game reviews, I'll keep them in mind should I eve leave this game I love and have a great deal of fun in. You've played EvE for 3 years? Really? Thought you'd learned something in that amount of time, but seems you haven't. Originally by: Calel As you are obviously not aware, CCP introduced a 'feature' in the last patch that makes freighters drop loot. That was last patch, not 2003. This 'feature' is what has led to the recent craze. As you are obviously not aware, freighters were always supposed to drop loot, but due to technical limitations (namely the intense lag it caused) CCP was unable to implement this. This last patch they fixed the issue, and it is now working as it always was supposed to. Originally by: Calel In answer to your last 'question' I wont live with it becuase at the moment the system is extremely unballanced. There is no defence against a high sec gank and not enough of a deterrent to make those involved think twice. Then don't go telling other people that "we're going to have to live with it", because obviously you can't. YOU think it's unbalanced. YOU think there's no defence. Until someone has actually TRIED any of the defensive measures mentioned in this thread and PROVED that they don't work by REPEATED TESTING, you don't have a friggin idea if it works or not. On paper it does work. It's up to you to try it out in game. Originally by: Calel I'm sure you can live with it, but then again, your not the one cutting your way through space in a slow, expensive, fat ass ship that with no defence now are you? I can live with it, yeah. Can't stand all these whiney threads though, and I am sure neither can CCP, so I'd say we're gonna see another carebear upgrade to the game in the near future. Your sort sure knows that the only way to get your way is to whine, whine and whine again. Originally by: Calel That's my final say on this, see ya in another thread. k thx bai /Ki lol.. sorry, I'd reply to your points but you seem to have an answer for everything and you'll only dissect every paragraph of my post and try to think of something smart ass comment to counter it with. As I say, futile. Have a nice day. S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:18:00 - [470] Originally by: Alrich Originally by: Calel stuff althou i am not pvp'ing it sounds to me as you dont like the idea of non-consensual pvp. this little carebear would quit this game the moment ccp makes highsec into fullsec. there is nothing bettar in this game than having my nonpvp-fitted ship engaged in fighting (be it suicide in high or normal in lo or no) ki an posted the idea of wow based on your distaste for non-consensual pvp, not the fact that one is a sci-fi and the other fantasy Nice alt Ki S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:21:00 - [471] Originally by: Calel lol.. sorry, I'd reply to your points but you seem to have an answer for everything and you'll only dissect every paragraph of my post and try to think of something smart ass comment to counter it with. As I say, futile. Have a nice day. No, don't go... I thought we where getting along... Originally by: Calel Nice alt Ki Yeah, thanks. Now you see how much I need someone to talk to. Everyone who agrees with me is my alt... /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:33:00 - [472] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Lord Frost You, my friend, need to take time to learn and honor this game as a whole and not for your selfish gains. ive seen you use this line on 3+ threads you might need to stop posting that when what you advocate is 100% safety and no leniency for any bandits or assassins in this game you might actually want to find out what eve really is because pirates bandits assassins killers thieves looters spies and merciless wars are what eve is about You are quite ignorant in that statement. I never said Eve was 100% safe and as a matter of fact what YOU think Eve is... couldn't be anymore of a wrong definition. Eve is about Empires... plain and simple. Its about taking a path you choose and making it the best as you can. Eve is about production, building, expanding, developing... its about community, gangs, fighting, defending, owning, working together... its about the market, the exploration, the excitment, the need for more! LOL... its not about petty lame grief tactic thieves. That, my wise apprentice, is just the negative role that comes with any MMORPG. Its part of Eve, but its in now way what Eve is. I suggest you quit wasting everyones time. You're just the soup of the day. By tomorrow, you and your alt will be forgotten.
Kanitsu Hiyaboosa	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:36:00 - [473] Originally by: Calel Edited by: Calel on 15/05/2007 12:48:55 I am a freighter pilot. It took me almost 6 months to make enough ISK to buy the ship becuase I am a casual player. I am not in an NPC corp but I do avoid low sec. I am a trader by nature and I love playing eve and having fun tyring to make a living from hauling goods. During my time as a freighter pilot I've made some ISK but no were near close to the value of my ship. I respect the PVP'ers and I respect the fact they have a 'large' proportion of space in which to quench their PVP thirst which is generally off limits to me in my freighter. They have thier fun and I have mine. I dont interfere with them but those involved in ganking want to interfere with me. Due to the recent hype about freighter ganks, I've not taken the freighter out becuase I have absolutely no defence against such tactics and to lose my main asset would literally be 'game over Calel' as I dont have the time nor the stomach to try to build up my eve life again. Since more often or not I log on and fly solo and due to the fact a 20 jump run in a freighter takes an extremely long time, scouts are not an option. It takes over a minute for a freighter to even get into warp. Its all very well to think of freighter pilots as rich greedy pilots attached to mega corps or alliances, but there's also a large portion of us who are trying to make ends meet and the loss of our ship would be the end of our eve career. I didnt post this to be flamed, called a carebare or to provoke hostility, I posted simply to add an insight into one freighter pilots eve life so that you can at least make up your own mind as to whether ganking a seriously expensive ship that has no defence in high sec is acceptable. My view is simple. Eve is a game that appeals to people for many different reasons and that is what makes it so succesfull. If you want PVP, just go into low sec and within a minute, you got it. Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire. Hey bud, great post and i respect your view, But see it from our point of view, Every time we see one of these big fat ships is just screaming at us to blow it up, thats where we get our rush, To be honest its human nature to destroy things, the bigger the better. I know all you want to do is play your game and solo along, thats fine, but FTs just have to take into account that nowhere is full 100% safe in eve, and to change the game mechs u will end with just another WOW, yes thats right WOW , and we know how GHaY that game is. This my friend is why we play EVE .. and love it sooooo dearly. Simple numbers.... work out the hurt taken to the hurt dealt.. something sooner or later is gunna go boom.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:40:00 - [474] Originally by: Calel lol.. sorry, I'd reply to your points but you seem to have an answer for everything and you'll only dissect every paragraph of my post and try to think of something smart ass comment to counter it with. As I say, futile. Have a nice day. Hehehee... let him go Calel... he's a chestpopping ego maniac. I stopped reading his replies for the fact that he can't come up with a decent argument. Like you said... futile.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:51:00 - [475] Originally by: Kanitsu Hiyaboosa Simple numbers.... work out the hurt taken to the hurt dealt.. something sooner or later is gunna go boom. Bottom line is piewats are here and going to stay. They play the game for their own selfish needs and gains. The rest of us see Eve as more than that, and even if you don't see it, we all help develop this game as we play. We could care less if you chose a ganker/griefer path or if you want to pvp... the problem lies in where piewats always want the easy way to gank over someone. They go for the unbalanced game mechanic, when all we are asking for is fair and equal tactics to force and counter eachother.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 15:57:00 - [476] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Calel lol.. sorry, I'd reply to your points but you seem to have an answer for everything and you'll only dissect every paragraph of my post and try to think of something smart ass comment to counter it with. As I say, futile. Have a nice day. Hehehee... let him go Calel... he's a chestpopping ego maniac. I stopped reading his replies for the fact that he can't come up with a decent argument. Like you said... futile. Awww... can't we all just be friends? Egomaniac, yeah. Chestbeating, sure. Carebear scum who don't know what he's talking about? No. And if you can present any, ANY arguments at all I will be pleasantly surprised. Idiot. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:24:00 - [477] Originally by: Ki An Awww... can't we all just be friends? Egomaniac, yeah. Chestbeating, sure. Carebear scum who don't know what he's talking about? No. So... from that comment I can see you are... 1. A big headed ego freak 2. A chestpopping wanna be tough guy 3. A carebear scum who DOES know what he's talking about. Thanks for claifying all that. ROFL
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:30:00 - [478] Originally by: Lord Frost So... from that comment I can see you are... 1. A big headed ego freak 2. A chestpopping wanna be tough guy 3. A carebear scum who DOES know what he's talking about. Thanks for claifying all that. ROFL Oh, someone help me please from these witty and yet effective comments... I have no recourse, no way of defending myself... CCP, please nerf witty responses as there is no counter to it. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:35:00 - [479] Not really sure why y'all keep arguing over it. The fix is already on Sisi. The drone loophole is closed. Concord does more damage when they arrive. Basically its now as it should be. You have until Concord shows up, and ONLY until Concord shows up to pull off a gank. This means large numbers of ships, bigger losses for the pilots, and it isn't cost efficient to just gank some poor bastard carrying low end minerals, yet still might be for someone carrying billions in the hold. Works for me.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:41:00 - [480] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer Not really sure why y'all keep arguing over it. The fix is already on Sisi. The drone loophole is closed. Concord does more damage when they arrive. Basically its now as it should be. You have until Concord shows up, and ONLY until Concord shows up to pull off a gank. This means large numbers of ships, bigger losses for the pilots, and it isn't cost efficient to just gank some poor bastard carrying low end minerals, yet still might be for someone carrying billions in the hold. Works for me. You see Ki An... a balance to fix everything... your whine loses. So sorry. So sad. Maybe if you keep whining, CCP will see selfish unfrair ganking grief greed as part of your selfish agenda and justify it. ROFL!!!!
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:47:00 - [481] Originally by: Lord Frost You see Ki An... a balance to fix everything... your whine loses. So sorry. So sad. Maybe if you keep whining, CCP will see selfish unfrair ganking grief greed as part of your selfish agenda and justify it. ROFL!!!! How big you must feel now that CCP once again caves in to the carebear whines. Doesn't it just make you want to run and hug everyone? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.05.15 16:59:00 - [482] Originally by: Ki An How big you must feel now that CCP once again caves in to the carebear whines. Doesn't it just make you want to run and hug everyone? /Ki Actually, this game is always in development, so they never caved in, they just made balance. However, I'm quite sure you'll be the first to find the new and improved way to gank and grief. A way that once again tips the scale on game mechanics. Take my advice, move your life to 0.0... don't be so lazy... and actually play Eve.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:10:00 - [483] Originally by: Lord Frost Actually, this game is always in development, so they never caved in, they just made balance. However, I'm quite sure you'll be the first to find the new and improved way to gank and grief. A way that once again tips the scale on game mechanics. I'll sure as hell try After all, can't let you carebears feel like you carried the day. The griefing will go on. Originally by: Lord Frost Take my advice, move your life to 0.0... don't be so lazy... and actually play Eve. Lol, that's rich coming from you... /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:22:00 - [484] Gotta love the irony. "Freighters now drop loot!" (CCP caves in to whiny pirates.) "Ganking freighters is a little more difficult!" (CCP caves in to whiny carebears.) It'd sure be refreshing to see you egomaniacs wake up and realize CCP is actually trying to BALANCE the game. That is, as you all would say it, caving in to all whiners equally. Because, and I'm making a big assumption here, CCP probably wants to see players of all kinds relatively happy with their Eve experience.
Shakeera	Posted - 2007.05.15 17:35:00 - [485] I am sorry your freighter got popped... but from one miner to the next here is what I did. Parked my freighter. Put all my minerals on market well above average price. (and I do mean above the lowest sellers). Sat back and watched my isk climb. 1 thing to note... I had quantity over the lowest seller. :P Thank you gank squad. Stop Crying and fight back. Raise the price of your minerals.
Calel Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.	Posted - 2007.05.15 22:00:00 - [486] Originally by: Kanitsu Hiyaboosa Originally by: Calel Edited by: Calel on 15/05/2007 12:48:55 Stuff Hey bud, great post and i respect your view, But see it from our point of view, Every time we see one of these big fat ships is just screaming at us to blow it up, thats where we get our rush, To be honest its human nature to destroy things, the bigger the better. I know all you want to do is play your game and solo along, thats fine, but FTs just have to take into account that nowhere is full 100% safe in eve, and to change the game mechs u will end with just another WOW, yes thats right WOW , and we know how GHaY that game is. This my friend is why we play EVE .. and love it sooooo dearly. Simple numbers.... work out the hurt taken to the hurt dealt.. something sooner or later is gunna go boom. I understand that, but at least support the idea that if you want to get the rush from making a freighter go boom, at least let the experience be returned and give the freighter pilot a chance to watch a few of you go boom. Try to imagine the rush we get as we watch our asset go up in smoke and there's not even a single module you can click to prevent it. Basically you just have to turn the monitor off, go make a cup of tea and try to work out how many roids your going to have to have to mine over the next 6 months to try and recoup the the loss that was taken from you in 40 seconds. Once you've done that you can switch the monitor back on and go clone. Then of course you will start to wonder if the hard work to get the damn ship back is actually worth it. You'll come to the conclusion its not as it will only happen again. Some people are coming up with great ideas for freighter defence, but the other problem is even with defences you wouldnt be able to use the autopilot and to be honest, if I wanted to sit at the helm during an agonising 30+ jumps in a ship that takes over a minute to even start to warp, I'd be better re-thinking my RL career and becoming a long distance lory driver. No one would try to blow me up then and I'd actually get paid for it. S.H.I.E.L.D Co. Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.15 22:12:00 - [487] Originally by: Shakeera I am sorry your freighter got popped... but from one miner to the next here is what I did. Parked my freighter. Put all my minerals on market well above average price. (and I do mean above the lowest sellers). Sat back and watched my isk climb. 1 thing to note... I had quantity over the lowest seller. :P Thank you gank squad. Stop Crying and fight back. Raise the price of your minerals. Oh noes! My precious Mineral Prices! SKUNK
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:12:00 - [488] It seems that all of this talk of freighters in high sec is a symptom of a mechanic that has not been addressed as yet. Yes this latest change will alleviate the current uproar in high sec but the root cause is still there. The freighters will continue to operate in high sec under Concord protection which, as I understand it, was never the intention. Why? The fact that freighters and probably other trades operate out of high sec begs the question. While glib answers to that question are easy, it seems that the actual mechanic that results in this is more complex. What condition in low sec makes it prohibitively difficult for freighters to live there? Surely it is more complex than just saying,öwell, they shoot at us in low sec.ö No doubt some would say that people like the easy life that high sec protections might offer, but I wonder if that is the root motivating factor. With all of this recent debate over freighters being victimized, and the many assertions of how difficult it is to protect a freighter, how would one operate a freighter business in low sec? I may be new to Eve but I understand the logistics of running business. The idea of armed escorts and scouts is workable in the short term, but over time that need would motivate the capitalist to seek other employment. The logistics do not seem to be sustainable in the long term. I can hear the argument now, ôjoin a corpö yet so many people do not do so and continue to operate in high sec. Many are in corps, but perhaps their corp is unable to provide the protections needed? This state of affairs causes much resentment to be directed at the npc corps which are largely new players. CCP is acting in a manner that will make a better Eve for the new player, yet the resentments aimed at npc corps will continue due to the advanced playerÆs continuation in npc corps for the perceived security they provide. A solution occurs to me.. A new class of capital ship.. the battle freighter, confined to low sec exclusively. Think about it.
Necrosmith Gallente Eth3real 3asy Company	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:24:00 - [489] This man speaks the truth. Different tools for different jobs. My freighter hauls scordite. My transport hauls t2 stuff. Anyone fool enough to lose 30 domis over 900m^3 of scordite will have me laughing at them. Originally by: Malcanis "Players should be able to avoid pvp if they so desire." Non-consensual PvP is explicitly a part of EVE, by the deliberate design of the developers. It says so right there in the FAQ. So you are quite simply wrong on this point. If you can fly a freighter you can also easily skill for Transports, which can fit quite a few modules, and use those to move the high-value items. Reserve the freighter for it's intended purpose of carrying a sufficient bulk of relatively low value items to make the trip worthwhile. Best Regards, --Necro ------------- "Isk is cheap. Life is cheaper. This week, they're having a sale on both."
Necrosmith Gallente Eth3real 3asy Company	Posted - 2007.05.16 00:27:00 - [490] The battle freighter? Isn't that kind of oxymoronic? What's next? The Carnival Cruise ship of Death? Originally by: Thesas A new class of capital ship.. the battle freighter, confined to low sec exclusively. Think about it. Best Regards, --Necro ------------- "Isk is cheap. Life is cheaper. This week, they're having a sale on both."
Saori Rei Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.05.16 02:52:00 - [491] I don't like frieghter suicide ganking. I personally believe that such PvP can be left out of Empire. I'd be absolutely distraught if I lost 5bil + is 38 seconds. The solution is very very simple in my book. One solitary low slot that can't fit a cargo expander. In this one slot put the best damage control you can manage. You now survive one minute and sixteen seconds. And on remote hull repping... chuckles 120 hull repair per 30 seconds? And HOW much hull does a Frieghter have? Enough that for a battle, a few ships won't make a difference with remote hull reps.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.16 05:36:00 - [492] Originally by: Lord Frost You are quite ignorant in that statement. I never said Eve was 100% safe and as a matter of fact what YOU think Eve is... couldn't be anymore of a wrong definition. Eve is about Empires... plain and simple. Its about taking a path you choose and making it the best as you can. Eve is about production, building, expanding, developing... its about community, gangs, fighting, defending, owning, working together... its about the market, the exploration, the excitment, the need for more! LOL... its not about petty lame grief tactic thieves. That, my wise apprentice, is just the negative role that comes with any MMORPG. Its part of Eve, but its in now way what Eve is. I suggest you quit wasting everyones time. You're just the soup of the day. By tomorrow, you and your alt will be forgotten. theres more than just thief that i mentioned your standing with this freighter issue is that they should be 100% safe and uh.. whos my alt ? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.16 05:39:00 - [493] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Lord Frost You see Ki An... a balance to fix everything... your whine loses. So sorry. So sad. Maybe if you keep whining, CCP will see selfish unfrair ganking grief greed as part of your selfish agenda and justify it. ROFL!!!! How big you must feel now that CCP once again caves in to the carebear whines. Doesn't it just make you want to run and hug everyone? /Ki its futile arguing with him he wants to make this game into communism you cant be selfish ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Ja'kar Templar Securities and Holdings	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:35:00 - [494] This man has said it the best... I'm tired of easy loophole ganks followed by the arrogant name callings, like 'carebear'. If you want to gank and if you think you are such a man, then why take the easy road that involves exploting unintended game mechanics to your advantage? Who's the real pansy here? Not the carebear who is working hard to produce and play a legit role in this game. You my friend, the ganker galore, are nothing but a lazy pansy. No offense, but I'd rather be a hardworking industrialist, than a lazy griefer who gets his thrills weeny tactics. A carebear trol with a stupid name
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.24 18:50:00 - [495] Originally by: Almente Edited by: Almente on 07/05/2007 00:20:08 Originally by: Dolika A screenie of my cargo? Have you got a linky? Dolika, you are a the lucky one, thought I lost it, but I found it in my corp chat logs - I just worned our corp guys: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0705/2007.05.01.19.26.04.jpg So... What do you think about it? Dolika has lots isk to afford this and how do i make that isk?
Mrmuttley Guns 'N' Hoses	Posted - 2007.07.24 20:00:00 - [496] Necro FTL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Time for a new Sig. Any Ideas?
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.24 20:17:00 - [497] I got an interesting question as I saw suicide ganking brought up earlier in the thread (Take this as semi serious, maybe a little condescending) How is it that tanking CONCORD is illegal but suicide ganking isnt? Yer still getting around the punishment... yeah yer losing a ship but the suicide ganker doesnt care, as they were in there TO lose a ahip. Maybe CONCORD should insta spawn instead of taking a few secs to show up... then they could really be the demigods they are kinda portrayed as (cant be killed, cant be tanked...)... And no comparisons to the IRL cops unless in your town the IRL cops show up and bust a cap in the guy thats guilty (and they know who is guilty somehow every time). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage.- Dianabolic
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.24 20:24:00 - [498] Originally by: Richard Aiel I got an interesting question as I saw suicide ganking brought up earlier in the thread (Take this as semi serious, maybe a little condescending) How is it that tanking CONCORD is illegal but suicide ganking isnt? Yer still getting around the punishment... yeah yer losing a ship but the suicide ganker doesnt care, as they were in there TO lose a ahip. Meh, you're not really getting around the rules - the rule is that if CONCORD shows up, you lose your ship. Whether losing your ship is important or not is not covered by the punishment and shouldn't be. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
yourmate nate	Posted - 2007.07.24 20:29:00 - [499] lo Trading 'as we know it' died when freighters entered the game. Just like dreads or carriers, freighters should not be allowed into high-sec. Kind regards yourmate nate
Mal Loc	Posted - 2007.07.24 21:17:00 - [500] Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Actually, I think it means the exact opposite. Yes, people will be less inclined to transport T2 items in build which will result in a less centralized market. But a de-centralized market will actually mean less strain on the servers. What puts strain on the servers is many people on one node, which is the case when the market is centralized in places like Jita. If anything, hi-sec freighter ganking could help the load balancing issues by de-centralizing the markets and stopping the Jita effect. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Eldo Davip ([email protected])
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.24 21:22:00 - [501] Originally by: yourmate nate Trading 'as we know it' died when freighters entered the game. Just like dreads or carriers, freighters should not be allowed into high-sec. I would very much appreciate it if you elaborated on this. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.25 01:12:00 - [502] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: yourmate nate Trading 'as we know it' died when freighters entered the game. Just like dreads or carriers, freighters should not be allowed into high-sec. I would very much appreciate it if you elaborated on this. Maybe he mean when small trader can not find good transport road when big trader take many item for small profit and make reward with no effort?
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:01:00 - [503] Originally by: Mal Loc Originally by: Dolika I hope everyone here understands this will mean higher prices of T2 items everywhere because people that provide the items to the markets and thus help keep prices down will just stop hauling **** around and sell where they produce which means more travel and more legwork ( more strain on the servers) for everyone. Rejoice Actually, I think it means the exact opposite. Yes, people will be less inclined to transport T2 items in build which will result in a less centralized market. But a de-centralized market will actually mean less strain on the servers. What puts strain on the servers is many people on one node, which is the case when the market is centralized in places like Jita. If anything, hi-sec freighter ganking could help the load balancing issues by de-centralizing the markets and stopping the Jita effect. Market hub exists when many players go there not when big ships fly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 04:02:00 - [504] FFS BAN HIM ALREADY Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 20:08:00 - [505] Originally by: Richard Aiel I got an interesting question as I saw suicide ganking brought up earlier in the thread (Take this as semi serious, maybe a little condescending) How is it that tanking CONCORD is illegal but suicide ganking isnt? Yer still getting around the punishment... yeah yer losing a ship but the suicide ganker doesnt care, as they were in there TO lose a ahip. Maybe CONCORD should insta spawn instead of taking a few secs to show up... then they could really be the demigods they are kinda portrayed as (cant be killed, cant be tanked...)... And no comparisons to the IRL cops unless in your town the IRL cops show up and bust a cap in the guy thats guilty (and they know who is guilty somehow every time). Tank to CONCORD mean you not get punishment must come.
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 22:23:00 - [506] Originally by: yourmate nate lo Trading 'as we know it' died when freighters entered the game. Just like dreads or carriers, freighters should not be allowed into high-sec. Kind regards yourmate nate They are working correct.
morgannax	Posted - 2007.07.27 00:03:00 - [507] i posted in another thread let freighters have a slot for L armor repper and cap charge and whatabout making the sentry guns stronger and having them target the offending ships,or maybe put in another few guns
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.27 02:29:00 - [508] Originally by: morgannax i posted in another thread let freighters have a slot for L armor repper and cap charge and whatabout making the sentry guns stronger and having them target the offending ships,or maybe put in another few guns Other item would fit under slot.
Arbitrus's Brother	Posted - 2007.08.17 06:24:00 - [509] Edited by: Arbitrus''s Brother on 17/08/2007 06:24:31 lol, thats funny whoops, alt post >.<
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.17 07:36:00 - [510] Necro: we already know the fix to this. remove insurance payouts if you are concordokenned. you got that CCP? ----------------------------------------------- "Yes... I sleep with my myrmidon. It's nothing to be ashamed of!"
Sharisa	Posted - 2007.08.17 09:26:00 - [511] Heres my Idea turns on his thermal hardeners 1. Firstly drop Freighters base cargo capacity by 15% (assuming a freighter has no slots due to it being mostly hollow) 2. Give freighters 5 lowslots and enough fitting to fit a capital armor repair and hardeners. 3. Ensure they have enough cap to run the repper for a few minutes turns on even more hardeners 4. add capital ships lvl 1 to the skill requirements. I say these changes because it never made much sense to me why a ship designer would build such a large expensive ship and not atleast give it the ability to weather a fight. in this example if he had 15 BS defending him its still unlikely he would have survived. with the changes above he still would be hard pressed but atleast he would stand a fair chance if his escorts were on the ball also (correct me if im wrong) arnt freighters technically capital ships? if so why are they the only capital ship that doesn't require the capital ships skill (plus it helps balance that they would now have slots and be therefor FAR superior than they are currently)
heheheh Singularity. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.17 09:31:00 - [512] Originally by: Cornucopian Necro: we already know the fix to this. remove insurance payouts if you are concordokenned. you got that CCP? I love it how people think no concord payouts will solve this matter haha
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.08.17 09:42:00 - [513] just give freighters a base resistance of 50-60% on all dmg types across armor and shield and hull. Give freighters a single medslot and enough fitting to fit a capital shieldbooster. Reduce lockrange to 0 and max locked targets to 0. Problem solved unless lag strikes in such a harsh way that its impossible to trigger the booster.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.08.17 10:00:00 - [514] Get a scout. Problem solved. ============================================
Venec Rave Technologies Inc. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.17 10:19:00 - [515] Oh god, not this **** again.
D'Insane Shatner Gallente Shatner's Toupee	Posted - 2007.08.17 11:19:00 - [516] Ok... now that I've read through all this schlock.... Piracy, is a crime in the EVE universe. Period. As such, it's practice should be very expensive in high sec space. The destruction of a 1 billion isk ship (No matter what it's function) by ships worth 750,000,000 isk, right under the nose of Concord- is unbalanced. There is low sec and high sec space in this game. In the quest for balance, low sec should be totally wild and lawless (which it is) and high sec should be virtually secure with extremely high costs for crime (apparently the cost is just not high enough). There are a large number of players in this game that do not willingly enter into wars, do not actively PVP, and are engaged in purely industrial and/or solo play. In fact- they make most of the hardware the warmongers blow up. So considering EVE is two sides of the same coin, secure, and not secure... whines by pirates about wanting to ply their trade in empire space seem more sickening that "carebear whines". At least the carebears generally stay out of low sec. These whining pirates should stay out of high sec. That's right- I said it..... WHINING pirates. -- http://www.shatnerology.com
illbebored	Posted - 2007.08.17 12:58:00 - [517] Originally by: Venec Oh god, not this **** again. Don't read it and don't post about it, then.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:03:00 - [518] Originally by: illbebored Originally by: Venec Oh god, not this **** again. Don't read it and don't post about it, then. dont whine about it then ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:36:00 - [519] Welcome to EVE, you're safe no where Mr. SWA carebear loser. The requirements to destroy your solo ass are something like over two dozen pilots and a massive capitol outlay. I fail to see why ccp SHOULDNT reward such cooperation and planning in defeating a carebear solo'ing (no scout?) in this game. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:50:00 - [520] LOL @ Necro... But seriously... Does nobody know that the mechanic that allowed the original freighter gank has been fixed? CONCORD now jams the drones as well, so no more drone swarms killing freighters. Clue? /me looks around for it. -=^=-

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