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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:43:57
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:40:43
Office 2007 FTL
I have been in mmorpg games for a long time and I have played pvp games and non pvp games. I have a resume far too long and spend far too much time playing games. Here is my analysis of this game:
There is an emerging elite class of players rising out of Eve Online leaving the average joes in the dust. Some players are benefiting from the many and at their expense. The competitive Eve player LOVES this as it rewards the strong and crushes the weak. The problem is its the average joes that are paying the electric bills on the Ramsan too.
Normally MMORPG developers thwart the eating of their young by granting them consensual / non consensual pvp systems and areas. Eve empire space (as it was conveyed to me) was supposed to be that area. I thought that until I was "stupid enough" to transport my hangar through hi sec space and lost 2 years of my game life about 4 months ago so someone else could make use of a crappy game feature and get 15 minutes of fun.
It won't take long for this thread to get flamed into oblivion because IÆve seen it before but last I checked all subscribing players get to have a say on these forums whether they pvp or not and I got about 36 hours left.
-Being a person who likes PvP or a person who likes to gank defenseless players may make you think your epeen is bigger, but the reality of it is this game could still be fun if there were limited opportunities for others to enjoy the game without being someoneÆs cannon fodder. There is no real world definition out there that says you're a better person or player because you choose to pvp....get that out of your head. Also please understand IÆm not asking for WoW here. There has to be a medium.
Fact:
As older characters get older and make more money and get better ships the market demands and the game content demands inflate with it. The new content expansions have done what content expansions do to all games: they trivialize the content that comes before it. This is bad for new characters in Eve because its boring to do mundane things to get to the good stuff. YouÆre not building expansion content with the newer players in mind û you always stack new stuff on top which benefits mainly people who have been through the older stuff. The effect is starting to take hold and the disparity is evident.
Fact:
If you choose to NOT pvp you only give up your ability to fight back in this game. Its perfectly reasonable and acceptable for the community and the developers to see freighters and industrial ships with no defense / weaponry blow up in high sec space due to broken game mechanics. Bring a friend eh?
How does it help immersion and RP and all that to sit at a gate and 1 shot defenseless ships? Why would it be so terrible to have areas where competitive or even preying pvp is possible and other areas where its not? WTF is empire for? Remove Concord then and be done with it or stop this stupid 1 shot killing. Even UO had guards FFs.
The Darwinism aspects of this game can be great and I thought they were but if you take it too far you start cutting into my game time which is downtime after a hard days work. I want to love this game but there is so much BS I donÆt know. I donÆt see how its too much to ask that the risk (or time) vs reward be balanced 50/50 and not in the favor of the halfwit(s) sitting at the gate waiting for defenseless ships to roll through?
If miners and industrialists are the backbone for the supply and demand paradigm in Eve online then they should be allowed a bit more exclusivity in that department. As it stands now you can play icon wars mining ore or you can go run complexes and forego the need for industrists kick them in the balls on mineral prices.
Maybe its time to just be a bit more honest about who this game is for and stop marketing it as a game available to pvp ær and crafter alike.
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Serenthris Landry
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:39:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Serenthris Landry on 08/05/2007 18:41:08
Aaaaargh text wall of doom....
Interest just hit zero...
so in answer to your question in the title... yes!
enjoy o//
edit: First :p
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:40:00 -
[3]
Edited by: SiJira on 08/05/2007 18:36:11
wall of text damn
____ __ ________
_sig below_
the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Tonitrus Feles
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:41:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tonitrus Feles on 08/05/2007 18:37:51
honestly i would have read more than two lines if it was formatted better.
use the return key, out a little more whitespace in there, nobody wants to read a block of text.
EDIT: dangit, not first
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Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:45:00 -
[5]
arrrrgh my bleeding eyes...the text was bad enough but the not one but three "wall of text" post followed it.
Yes, the rich in game can afford to have fun in PvP. The idea is to make sure the poor dont get rich and come by and kick your butt...LOL
Thats what 'I think' you ment to say.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:45:00 -
[6]
i read all of it and frankly he has good points
____ __ ________
_sig below_
the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Sash Windu
Gallente
KSW Heavy Engineering
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:46:00 -
[7]
I read it and I disagree with it.
But then again I was a Privateer so I think I was one of the people ruining his game.
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Le Skunk
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:49:00 -
[8]
Well now youve formatedd it but deleted the title - put a title back in.
Anyway this post is following my carebear 9 points to nerfdom - its to obvious
SKUNK
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:50:00 -
[9]
re: formatting . Sorry I proof my comments in Office before posting. Normally this does me justice but I just flipped to office 2007- its the Vanguard Saga of Heros of Office word processing.
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Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:50:00 -
[10]
Basically, I dont agree with you.
But letting that aside, since everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you tried not to bring it over as flamebait...what do you try to achieve with your post?
The system you describe is the very basic of EVE, what do you expect to happen, CCP changing it?
Concerning this "Average joe gets pwned by a small elite" etc. that is just an assumption. You think because usually the most people are crafters/consensual pvp-fans, its the same in EVE.
Yet, you have a very high amount of players organized in 0.0 = Pvp Alliances, and countless pirate/pvp corps as well, add to that those industrials/traders who are well aware of the risk taking place in high-sec and using it to their advantage, cause they can drive others out of the market by being smart, who is the "average joe" youre talking about?
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:52:00 -
[11]
In a game where it actually matters who wins and loses, of course there will be many losers and a few winners. Everybody has a chance to get successful in Eve if they want it bad enough. There are many stories of people leaving their mark in the universe, and not all of them started in 2003 either.
I frankly dont see anything wrong with it. Eve is hard.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune |
Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:51:24
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:50:22
respectfully - why are there so many people in NPC corps?
What do I want? A game that recognizes that there are places for pvp and places for ganking. A game that recognizes there is value balancing risk vs reward and respects the time people spend playing the game.
If there is no place then take out concord. Stop saying its a game feature.
Why is my time less valuable then someone sitting at a gate waiting to take advantage of crappy mechanics?
Why is it a new region comes in so the miners don't gain value from their time spent mining.
Why is pvp "better" than industry and why is it always considered industry 2nd in class?
ps. very sorry for my crappy formatting
/with respect intended.
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Rebekeah Arendtius
Occam's Razor Combine
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:56:00 -
[13]
I'll try to make an answer from my point of view.
I believe EVE is actually a complex strategy game where the players need to play the role of the lowly grunt as well. What that means to me is that people need to group together to achieve something big. To do that, someone needs to do the manual labor as well, such as freightering loads of stuff around (in small enough piles that one doesn't get suicide ganked).
About the industry: try asking, for example, BOB, TRUST or NAGA how they manage to run large industrial empires everywhere in space. They have built their empires from nothing, why couldn't other industrialists do the same? In my opinion the game survives on the fine balance of industry and combat; combat is required to protect your industry and industry needs to fuel the war machine. If other is made invulnerable, there is no point to the other; industry cannot get it's goods sold or wars cannot end except by boring the opposing side out.
Older pilots _may_ get more money than younger pilots, I agree. But not necessarily. EVE rewards the smart player who plans ahead and thinks. I did not earn much ISK in the first year I played but then I started thinking ahead and planning, suddently I earned much more.
To sum it up, I believe there are two ways to play EVE. The instant gratification way, in which the pilot is looking for fun. If something is not fun, then he does not do it. The other way is the strategy gamer's method: he groups up, makes long-term goals, struggles to attain them and then defends his achievements against others. In my opinion the game has lot more to offer to the strategy gamer.
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Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:58:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: Rekindle
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:51:24
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:50:22
respectfully - why are there so many people in NPC corps?
What do I want? A game that recognizes that there are places for pvp and places for ganking. A game that recognizes there is value balancing risk vs reward and respects the time people spend playing the game.
If there is no place then take out concord. Stop saying its a game feature.
Why is my time less valuable then someone sitting at a gate waiting to take advantage of crappy mechanics?
Why is it a new region comes in so the miners don't gain value from their time spent mining.
Why is pvp "better" than industry and why is it always considered industry 2nd in class?
ps. very sorry for my crappy formatting
/with respect intended.
Your time isnt less valueable than the time of someone camping a gate.
And EVE is a PvP focused game, most of the MMos out there are mixed focused, have consensual PvP etc. But CCP decided they wanted a non-consensual PvP possible to happen everywhere.
That answers the questions on why new regions with ore as loto come out, and why pvp gets more intention in EVE than industry does. Because thats EVEs focus.
Quote:
You’re not building expansion content with the newer players in mind – you always stack new stuff on top which benefits mainly people who have been through the older stuff. The effect is starting to take hold and the disparity is evident.
Thats just incorrect. You need to go through the expansions apparantly to see what was added before you claim it only benefits old players.
Invetion? Lower prices on Tech II Mods, basically a nerf for those owning tech II BPOs.
New Ships, not only tech II ships, new tech Is for younger players.
Exploration? A way for new players who like exploring to make isk.
etc.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:03:00 -
[15]
Oh oh, I'm gonna flame this one cause it's fun and needs to be done:
Quote:
I have been in mmorpg games for a long time and I have played pvp games and non pvp games. I have a resume far too long...
Good for you. This is my first one. Don't care.
Quote:
I thought that until I was "stupid enough" to transport my hangar through hi sec space and lost 2 years of my game life about 4 months ago so someone else could make use of a crappy game feature and get 15 minutes of fun.
I think I just found the real motivation behind this extraordinarily long post. It's a whine about losing your stuff. Likely because you did something stupid.
Quote:
Being a person who likes PvP or a person who likes to gank defenseless players
If you're defenseless, it's because you choose to be. If you're not careful, it's because you're lazy and should play an easier game.
Quote:
(old players get too powerful, and..) The new content expansions have done what content expansions do to all games: they trivialize the content that comes before it...
Yes. That's a minor problem. So? After two years you shouldn't be using the early stuff. New players are now in BC's in a month easy, often a couple weeks.
Quote:
and more blah blah...
You knew the ropes. You say you've been playing for TWO YEARS. TWO YEARS man. And you don't know the ropes yet? And you're whining now? Or you're just figuring this stuff out now? Jeez man.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Last Cause
Green Gecko Inc.
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:07:00 -
[16]
Not flaming: I actually read all of that, but I can say this, My account is like 1 month old and I'm in 0.0 mining and ratting. The new content is usually related to new 0.0 areas, and I already could go out there. It sounds like you just aren't getting involved with a group, and that's the important thing in EVE. If you aren't with a corp or alliance, then you're really missing out on the best parts. If you are, then you're apparently not in a good one. 
*Transfers his 2 ISK on this topic*
-Sig-
Green Gecko Inc. A corp, A family.
Hiring ALL types of players! 0.0 based!
Recruitment Poster |
Anferney
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:07:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Anferney on 08/05/2007 19:04:08
Originally by: Rekindle
Normally MMORPG developers thwart the eating of their young by granting them consensual / non consensual pvp systems and areas. Eve empire space (as it was conveyed to me) was supposed to be that area. I thought that until I was "stupid enough" to transport my hangar through hi sec space and lost 2 years of my game life about 4 months ago so someone else could make use of a crappy game feature and get 15 minutes of fun.
What if that someone else made all their earnings popping overstuffed freighters? Hi sec is meant to be safer, not safe and this is stated several times in the guides and the tutorial and is everywhere on the boards. It i ssafe for the new players since they are not really profitable to go after since they don't have anything really to loot and sell.
Quote:
-Being a person who likes PvP or a person who likes to gank defenseless players may make you think your epeen is bigger, but the reality of it is this game could still be fun if there were limited opportunities for others to enjoy the game without being someoneÆs cannon fodder. There is no real world definition out there that says you're a better person or player because you choose to pvp....get that out of your head. Also please understand IÆm not asking for WoW here. There has to be a medium.
I agree that choosing PvP doesn't make you a better player. Being able to adapt and anipulate situations to your advantage makes you a better player. Furthermore, there are features that allow you to avoid PvP, not with 100% accuracy, but using them and using them intelligently will certainly reduce the threat of loosing everything.
Quote:
The new content expansions have done what content expansions do to all games: they trivialize the content that comes before it. This is bad for new characters in Eve because its boring to do mundane things to get to the good stuff.
This is not really all that true. You can go out and successfully fight right off the bat. you just have to know/figure out how to. the new features have largely tended to have something that does not invalidate the previous (tech II is nice and all, but you do not need it to be effective).
Quote:
Its perfectly reasonable and acceptable for the community and the developers to see freighters and industrial ships with no defense / weaponry blow up in high sec space due to broken game mechanics.
Exactly what mechanics are broken? You are supposed to be able to do that. The idea is to avoid having it done to you by paying attention or by not putting everything you have in one ship.
Quote:
WTF is empire for? Remove Concord then and be done with it or stop this stupid 1 shot killing.
High Sec and Concord exist to give starting players a realitvely safe place to get their feet wet in the game. It was not meant to be a place where you could horde and be perfectly safe from loss to other players. it succeeds in this in that the players that horde move massive amounts of valuables around in weak ships while the new players are protected in that they are not profitable targets.
Quote:
If miners and industrialists are the backbone for the supply and demand paradigm in Eve online then they should be allowed a bit more exclusivity in that department. As it stands now you can play icon wars mining ore or you can go run complexes and forego the need for industrists kick them in the balls on mineral prices.
Not really. Everyone loses ships and most of the ships are only made by players. Also, why should the industrialists be protected from loss?
Quote:
Maybe its time to just be a bit more honest about who this game is for and stop marketing it as a game available to pvp ær and crafter alike.
It is for both. you can run a very successful industrial operation, but you cannot ignore the PvP aspects just like a PvP'er can't ignore the manufacturing aspects.
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Zaolen Ying
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:11:00 -
[18]
for there to be winners, there has to be losers.
so you lost big time this time, well suck it up and make sure next time you win.
cant make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
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Bahk Naar
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:15:00 -
[19]
This pretty much captures most of my ill will towards the game. It caters to the schoolyard bullies of the online world with the excuse to the non-bullies "but isn't it FUN!! you could fight back too!"
Commenting that it benefits the few at the expense of the many is quite accurate IMO.
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wierchas noobhunter
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:15:00 -
[20]
ho just go away
i even cant flmae u
cos i just dont care
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Dampfschlaghammer
Minmatar
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:18:00 -
[21]
Although I hardly play atm due to some grave shortcomings of EvE (Lag, Poses, Titans, local), this post reminds me of why I still keep paying for my subscription:
Even after countless carebear flames, CCP, unlike all other major MMORPG companies, still has not succumbed completely to the whiners and carebears.
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Phoebus Athenian
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:22:00 -
[22]
Some good points...
I've been MMORPGing since '97 too.
Yes UO had guards too, that were balanced and made
it possible for crafters (that do not choose to take
too many risks) to survive.
Aside your points, eve is still a great game.
But the bottom line is, it needs bette balancing.
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Alora Venoda
Caldari
GalTech
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:22:00 -
[23]
i actually read the OP and agree somewhat. i played WoW for over a year and now mainly play EVE. i find that EVE is much more rewarding in many ways, especially given the risk involved.
but there is much more to EVE than just solo activities, or even just things to do in general. EVE has much more in-game community than WoW ever did. i think this is primarily due to much better corp-related features. dealing with corp assets, industry, and group activities is game content in itself. EVE just has so much more corp/guild structure than any other game i have played. and there is still so much more corp/alliance stuff i have yet to experience... or maybe i am just a noob in that regard 
my point is that EVE, unlike many other MMO games, allows us to make a "way of life" in the game and not just find the next mountain to climb, or carrot on a stick to chase. and the dev blog description of EVE as a "sandbox" is a pretty good description too.
training skills and getting better ships can often seem like reaching your goals, and then it becomes boring because there are no more goals to work towards. unlike the end-game in WoW, there are many more options in EVE. but mainly, it is because instead of having "no more mountains to climb," you can settle into a "way of life."
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Karash Amerius
Amarr
O.E.C
Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:25:00 -
[24]
Disagree with most of this post.
As in life, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety, advancement, and having fun.
Merc Blog |
Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:32:00 -
[25]
and birds goes tiwt....
(wait, thats how birds sounds like right?...)
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Gilbert Drillerson
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:46:00 -
[26]
I read the OP and I understand where Rekindle is comming from, eve can be a VERY frustrating place to be for the guy that just wants to enjoy the game living in empire. Eve actually has a lot to offer the "builder/collector" type profiles, even if that is all you do in eve, its still an awesome game with loads of new goals to achieve.
Unfortunately eve is a PVP game... and its a PVP game with a mean side to boot... there is no way to be 100% safe in eve.
Why not just fix that... make PVP consentual in empire... its easy to do.
Well I dont believe it is possible, PVP is the real basis for eve, not only is it the essence of what makes eve interesting for most of the player, but it is in fact also the basis for the eve economy, without pvp very little would get destroyed and eventually noone would need crafters !
Removing PVP 100% from one aspect of the game would effect the balance of eve and create all kinds of problems. I can only imagine all the potential game mechanic exploits and isk farming that such a system would make possible... as it is now I can kill anyone in the game if they **** me off enough... thats a VERY comforting thought :)
I guess the whole point of my post is, that eve isnt for everyone, if what people really want, is to soloplay a MMORG and craft/PVE in safety, just about any other MMORG in the world is better than Eve... atleast with regards to the safety aspect.
Dont get mad - Get even |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:55:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/05/2007 19:52:05
Sad but the OP has good and solid points. I wish CCP would give us a starter or novice region. A region that we could mine, run missions and do our stuffs without getting ganked or griefed. Items can't be lost in the region because a player killer kills a player. Items can't be moved in or out of this region from other regions in eVe.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Captain Neutron
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.08 19:56:00 -
[28]
I'm still about 2 weeks old so I haven't ventured out into lowsec space yet. But I will. And when I do...I fully expect to get ganked. Again and again. But eventually I'll get it and be able to make a fight out of it. And soon after that I may actually win a fight now and again.
I played WoW for 2 years and was never very good at 1 on 1 PvP. But I always roll on a PvP server. Always.
I die much more than I kill but so be it. It's just way cooler than being a carebear IMHO.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Anferney
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Sad but the OP has good and solid points. I wish CCP would give us a starter or novice region. A region that we could mine, run missions and do our stuffs without getting ganked or griefed. Items can't be lost in the region because a player killer kills a player. Items can't be moved in or out of this region from other regions in eVe.
So, th epoint is to create an area where you can't really do anything useful except earn money? This seems rather bizzare since it will not fix the hauler ganking 'problem' and will just create a safe place for people to mass fortunes with no risk. That is counter to the foundation of Eve: risk for payoff.
The starter area is not for fixing hauler ganks but for new and casual players to enjoy the game. We can still trade, mine, run missions and do stuffs. We can still fight each other if we want to like in a duel system or mutual war decs.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Chia Mulholland
Mulholland Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:10:00 -
[30]
I agree with you. When you sign up for an MMO you expect that there is a safe area where you can putter around and get to know the game. You can then venture into more dangerous areas as you get better.
This assumption is based on how every other MMO out there works. Eve has 'high security' space, 'low security' space and 'no security' space. These terms seem - to me - to support that expectation.
I haven't been ganked in high-sec but I can understand people that are surprised when it happens. And I think that high-sec either needs to be made safe or something needs to be done to stop people from making the assumption that high-sec is safe.
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