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Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.09 08:47:00 - [121] Originally by: Cipher7 Stuff We had 2 nice run-ins of 20/30 vs 30 in the last 7 days. Where've you been?
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.05.09 09:00:00 - [122] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. /SIGNED!
dan drorgar Minmatar principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:17:00 - [123] Edited by: dan drorgar on 09/05/2007 10:13:04 Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer Although I hardly play atm due to some grave shortcomings of EvE (Lag, Poses, Titans, local), this post reminds me of why I still keep paying for my subscription: Even after countless carebear flames, CCP, unlike all other major MMORPG companies, still has not succumbed completely to the whiners and carebears. Don't attribute to moralty what can be sufficiently explained by apathy ... PROMO Director of Not Speaking For My Alliance.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:45:00 - [124] Edited by: Darcuese on 09/05/2007 10:43:19 Originally by: fire 59 Eve is a pretty harsh game. It reward's the quick and the smart and punish's the dumb and the lazy. Some folk's come from other game's and want this game to adopt bear zone's ( no pvp area's ) and the like. How about instead of that they actually play the game and learn from mistake's and try and get ahead instead of just complaing ( see the other 100 whine thread's about ganking etc ) My corp fellow, its not about..."OH, I WANNA BE 100% safe in HIGH sec systems" Its not about immortality as in WoW. Its about risk V rewards. While perception of individuals (and their criterias/values/priorities) is very different from one to another, I belaive that majority of ppl think that risk is much lesser then rewards for some. (i might be wrong here ofc). Im not telling anyone how it should be and what soultions might be optimal, but, IMHO, risk versus reward is something that should be carfully look by developers. So, please, stop bugging guys about advices how to fit a ship, about taking escort,etc,etc. There will allways be a way to shoot someone, and there should be. Thats not the point though (Even though it might have been motivation to start this thread) me, myself and I ------>
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:48:00 - [125] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/05/2007 10:44:52 Originally by: Darcuese While perception of individuals (and their criterias/values/priorities) is very different from one to another, I belaive that majority of ppl think that risk is much lesser then rewards for some. (i might be wrong here ofc). Tons of people probably got killed in low sec or 0.0 during their first weeks in Eve, and got the impression that 0.0 or low sec means instant death. Therefore their perception is that risk vs reward is out of whack. However... there are people living there. How do they survive if its instant death as soon as you undock? Exacly. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:50:00 - [126] Originally by: Rekindle But the reality of it is this game could still be fun if there were limited opportunities for others to enjoy the game without being someoneÆs cannon fodder. Nice writeup, but there IS a way not to be someones cannon fodder, its called using your head. And this is the beauty of the game, there is no fail save to protect the stupid from the smart.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:51:00 - [127] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/05/2007 10:44:52 Originally by: Darcuese While perception of individuals (and their criterias/values/priorities) is very different from one to another, I belaive that majority of ppl think that risk is much lesser then rewards for some. (i might be wrong here ofc). Tons of people probably got killed in low sec or 0.0 during their first weeks in Eve, and got the impression that 0.0 or low sec means instant death. Therefore their perception is that risk vs reward is out of whack. However... there are people living there. How do they survive if its instant death as soon as you undock? Exacly. Yeah, you showed me the light i havent seen or mention in my post. >another smilie from archive placed here< me, myself and I ------>
Khorian Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 11:17:00 - [128] When I was a newb I got told: "Dont fly what you cant afford to lose" and of course "Never fly AFK" Of course I didn't want to listen to the old farts and bought a Brutix right after training BC 1 in a hurry. A few hours later the Brutix was history and I was ruined. I then took a break from EvE :P But I came back, and remembered the two prime rules my friends had told me earlier and lived by them from that time on. Of course I wasted alot of ships by "learning the hard way" and doing stupid things like attacking a frig in my cruiser at a low sec station. YARRR! Well what I was trying to say was errr, I don't remember. But don't be such a wuss. Don't move all your stuff in a freighter without a remote repping escort at once. Things have changed and you need to adapt, like we had to a hundred times before. And btw, even if you chose to not PvP in eve, you should learn about pvp anyway to know what is possible and what is not. --------------------- This is the signature
Rekindle	Posted - 2007.05.09 11:28:00 - [129] How quick some simple minds are to come to conclusions. I don't give a rats ass about that stuff I lost a long time ago. I didn't pass through the fire that was UO to listen to mindless banter about my carebear goodes. Can I say that again? Do I need to get out chalk and crayons to explain this? Most of the responses in this thread have been very constructive and have provided insight on both sides of this point of view. Unlike some, I'm capable of being the devil's advocate and hearing the opinions on all sides. Yes I've been playing two years....so what? My items are not at issue here, nor is my ship set up. This is not "im sad cos I losst my l33t stuff". My OP and subsequent feedback explains my point and based on other's comments its obviously something that many people agree with to some extent or another. If you can't be bothered to read the point of view and comment on the thread, not the person, then go chew glass. For those that provide insight into the position that I'm currently --not-- taking : thank you. At the end of the day the situation boils down in a difference between points of view. Some people think its risky and adds to the mystique of the game to allow empire ganking to occur (and if you read my OP this wasn't the only component to my assessment that were made) some think its an exploit of game mechanics. Eve is a cold harsh world statement is a cop out statement. /respectfully -------------------------------------------
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.09 11:42:00 - [130] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Jenny Spitfire We can still fight each other if we want to like in a duel system or mutual war decs. what about unmutual war decs? The point to is prevent non-mutual aggressions. The safe region is for new players or players who want leisure gaming without any grievance. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
max bygraves	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:33:00 - [131] Originally by: DiuxDium /duel What is /Duel ?
Valan	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:36:00 - [132] My biggest issue with super safe areas is it gives people the ability to grind isk while not being at their computer. It assists macro miners afk traders and such like. EVE principle is risk vs reward. In low sec and 0.0 you can earn lots of isk and the risk is high. In empire you can earn lots of isk without any risk, how easy do you want it? There should be risk to those doing it afk. If you're at your computer then you can't get ganked in empire. Allowing the low level of risk in empire combats the afk crowd from making loads of isk without any penalty. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:51:00 - [133] Edited by: Drizit on 09/05/2007 12:50:42 Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. If it's not broken, then why can't my corpmate/gangmate aid me by shooting back at the suicide gankers without getting ganked by Concord himself? Even in lowsec, you have the option to defend your cargo shipment, in highsec, you are not allowed to. Concord should still intervene but a few gangmates should be able to make sure that the job is done without losing the shipment. Someone who goes it alone is in danger of losing their shipment but there should be an alternative for team players. --
Stella Stardust	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Drizit Edited by: Drizit on 09/05/2007 12:50:42 Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. If it's not broken, then why can't my corpmate/gangmate aid me by shooting back at the suicide gankers without getting ganked by Concord himself? Even in lowsec, you have the option to defend your cargo shipment, in highsec, you are not allowed to. Concord should still intervene but a few gangmates should be able to make sure that the job is done without losing the shipment. Someone who goes it alone is in danger of losing their shipment but there should be an alternative for team players. I think the problem with EVE is that it is built to be a cold harsh world only to the majority of the people, not the griefers. There is no punishment whatsoever for being a griefer. Most games go the route of letting game mechanics deal with griefers, other (with open pvp) give the control to other players. EVE does neither. It hides this by having the illusion of safe areas, and illusion of player control. There is also a lot of mistaken identity on these boards it seems of PvPers and griefers. If EVE was a true open PvP world, it might actually be better off than this half baked version. Because IMO there are more fair minded PvPers than there are griefers.
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:25:00 - [135] Originally by: Drizit Edited by: Drizit on 09/05/2007 12:50:42 Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. If it's not broken, then why can't my corpmate/gangmate aid me by shooting back at the suicide gankers without getting ganked by Concord himself? Even in lowsec, you have the option to defend your cargo shipment, in highsec, you are not allowed to. Concord should still intervene but a few gangmates should be able to make sure that the job is done without losing the shipment. Someone who goes it alone is in danger of losing their shipment but there should be an alternative for team players. Dont people get globally flagged when they attack something in empire, thus allowing you to fight back.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:30:00 - [136] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The point to is prevent non-mutual aggressions. You might be missing the point of wardecs slightly.
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:33:00 - [137] Too many words to read, but either become one of the few, or play 1 player games. I heard 1 player games dont have such issues.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:42:00 - [138] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The point to is prevent non-mutual aggressions. You might be missing the point of wardecs slightly. But not when you are in the "casual" region in my earlier post. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:01:00 - [139] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The throwaway Alt Char attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. Sorry Wrangler, but had to correct that bit for you ;-) _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -
Rekindle	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Stella Stardust Originally by: Drizit Edited by: Drizit on 09/05/2007 12:50:42 Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. If it's not broken, then why can't my corpmate/gangmate aid me by shooting back at the suicide gankers without getting ganked by Concord himself? Even in lowsec, you have the option to defend your cargo shipment, in highsec, you are not allowed to. Concord should still intervene but a few gangmates should be able to make sure that the job is done without losing the shipment. Someone who goes it alone is in danger of losing their shipment but there should be an alternative for team players. I think the problem with EVE is that it is built to be a cold harsh world only to the majority of the people, not the griefers. There is no punishment whatsoever for being a griefer. Most games go the route of letting game mechanics deal with griefers, other (with open pvp) give the control to other players. EVE does neither. It hides this by having the illusion of safe areas, and illusion of player control. There is also a lot of mistaken identity on these boards it seems of PvPers and griefers. If EVE was a true open PvP world, it might actually be better off than this half baked version. Because IMO there are more fair minded PvPers than there are griefers. Stella, I think you pretty well reiterated quite nicely part of the point I'm trying to make. People can have risk and rewards and pvp without grief tactics adding to the "challenge". No one is asking for a risk free experience but there is a fine line between someone accepting risk and someone having fun by being an ass. Lots of people think i'm asking for a carefree world which i'm not. Lots of people think i'm carebear and I'm n....well maybe a little ....but the point is the world can still be harsh without cheap ass tactics that constitute a "i win" button on behalf of the agressor. -------------------------------------------
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:29:00 - [141] Eve is an exciting and dangerous place, even in its safest area's... and this is how it should remain. How exciting would Lord of the Rings have been if he Shire was COMPLETELY safe? Would the Hobbits have voted to let the Dark Riders in to have a friendly, mutually agreed to fight? How gripping would it have been if the Sith Lord had to petition the senate to be able to attempt to overthrow them and take over? Would we care about what happens to Captain Jack Sparrow if the pirates were not allowed to attack the town because it was "out of bounds"? Eve without danger, even in High Sec, is not a game that most of us would care to play (if we were honest with ourselves). It would lose much of it's deadly attraction. Times of safety and prosperity are only really appreciated if they are threatened from time to time. If you want to fix something, get to the root of the problem. Disposable alts in NPC corps (for both Pirate and Carebear), and do some tweaking to allow kill rights for an attacked persons corp and perhaps even their alliance. But don't eliminate the slight danger that still exists in high security area's. A boring game is a dead game.
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.05.09 14:52:00 - [142] Edited by: djenghis jan on 09/05/2007 14:49:36 Edited by: djenghis jan on 09/05/2007 14:48:45 The issue here is indeed risk vs reward. If you remover hisec altogether you simply get another economy. Before you know it everyone is back in cruisers and frigates. In 0.0 you see this also. The t1 cruiser gang is a common pvp minifleet. So suppose hisec dissapears, are we then in a quake III arena game? I think the answer is yes, because if you lose ships all the time you end up doing pvp in frigates or even noobships. As everybody knows eve has no superships that can win from a gang of t1 frigates. Do we want this? I think not I think that the majority of the pirates want to go to lowsec and well, pirate. This is ok as long as the peeps being the victims have something to gain or at least can fight back in a meaningfull manner. So again its economics. If a certain area is overmined the roids dissapear and then the miners. If an area is overpiratted then the miners dissapear and then the pirates. So maybe we need to adjust the gain-loss risk in a dynamic manner. If there are lots of pirates in a certain area we could seed more valuable ore to up the reward. So there are >50 ship kills in system x? then ore with roughly the same value as these ships could be seeded as ore in those systems. The result will be a win-win. Miners have more to gain, pirates have more to shoot at. Even from a role playing perspective this should make sense... how about it?
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:22:00 - [143] Don't get to philosophical there, people. It's mere game mechanics and game balance. - Make Concord shoot drones - Don't pay insurance when being destroyed by Concord - Make Concord smarter, i.e. unconditional ship termination only when the attacker keeps shooting and doesn't stop when Concord arrives - ... All in all, some smarter rules and mechanics and most of the "wtf?!" issues disappear. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:38:00 - [144] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Thesas Originally by: Firane Having a dev, Wrangler in this case finally answer to this repeatative whine on the forums puts my mind at ease. For a while I've thought some of these whines might actually be having an effect. It is having an effect. Whether game developers are listening or not is irrelevant at the end of the day when paying customers are thinking over what has been said here. you mean the 2% of eve that reads the forums TouchT However, I see most of these controversial issues debated in the NPC corp chat as well as in my own friendsÆ channel.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:43:00 - [145] Looks like freighter popping has everybody all worked up. BOOM! "Look daddy, it's Christmas!"
R3dSh1ft FIRMA	Posted - 2007.05.09 15:54:00 - [146] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ _________________________________________________________ FIRMA - a drinking corp with an EVE problem
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 16:15:00 - [147] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Why do you love it? Its an arbitrary, oft repeated, oft contradicted, sop to a version of the game that some Devs would like to see - whilst other Devs activly destroy. Another dev popping in a thread - coming up with a flippant remark - then disapeering never to be seen again. If they wish to protest they havent got time to post in threads and repeat themselves one hundered times over (which i can understand - this is what dev blogs are for) - then dont post once in a thread then leave everyone to fight over your mysterious and profound statements. Whilst others fawn and sycophant like teenie-boppers at a boy band concert. SKUNK
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.09 16:31:00 - [148] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 09/05/2007 16:31:42 Originally by: Thesas Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Thesas It is having an effect. Whether game developers are listening or not is irrelevant at the end of the day when paying customers are thinking over what has been said here. you mean the 2% of eve that reads the forums TouchT However, I see most of these controversial issues debated in the NPC corp chat as well as in my own friendsÆ channel. Well, in principle I'd agree and say that forums constitute only a small fraction of the actual playerbase. Interestingly enough, despite what everybody might think in the face of all the 'carebearish whines', PvP'ers seem to be much more vocal than the peaceful crowd. Perhaps that has something to do with a certain need for recognition, I don't know. However, many of the 'nice' players don't even bother coming here to vent their anger. They just leave. Now EVE is a harsh place, PvP game etc. etc., so that might be fine. But when all is said and done, those players who left, the 'nice' and peaceful players, are often the more loyal and by any means straightforward ones. Just look in which areas of the game most of the exploiting takes place. It's where the sleeky and overambitious people play. Thus, by scaring away the not-so-hardcore players, EVE loses a lot of it's assets. A modern MMO needs all kinds of players, otherwise it might die. Slowly, but surely. Right now subscriber numbers are growing. But it would be foolish to expect it to stay that way. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 16:55:00 - [149] Edited by: Darcuese on 09/05/2007 16:51:53 Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 09/05/2007 16:31:42 Thus, by scaring away the not-so-hardcore players, EVE loses a lot of it's assets. A modern MMO needs all kinds of players, otherwise it might die. Slowly, but surely. Right now subscriber numbers are growing. But it would be foolish to expect it to stay that way. They gave womans option to vote in the past. Where did that take us? PS Im joking me, myself and I ------>
Ahz	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:14:00 - [150] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken. My issue with Eve is just a little different and it's embedded to the OP's original point: When CCP chooses to invest more in their older players they often do so at the expense of their newer players. Take the concept of Heat for example: The two year old player gets the ability to overload his faction-fitted command ship to gain a slight edge over other faction-fitted command ships The new player (or the care bear) gets the ability to see his new cruiser pop in 4 seconds versus 6 seconds The longer you play the more uber you become and as CCP keeps adding content at the top of the food chain there's no ceiling. The result is that those players who were lucky enough to start playing four years ago are often either nearly invincible or so rich that regular combat losses mean nothing to them. Newer players are both easier to kill and their losses hurt more. This only continues to get worse as time goes on. CCP has got to make it clear about whether they want the game to grow through adding new players or if they really want to keep pandering to their 4 year olds. So, I disagree with CCP Wrangler. Eve is not a cold, dark, harsh world. It's a world with varying shades of cold, dark and harsh all the way up to fairly warm, well lit and kind of posh. And many of the investments that CCP makes in the game only reinforce that dynamic.

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