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InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2007.05.18 00:01:00 - [1] I feel that everyone needs to be made away that there is a vast imbalance amonth the difference BCs and something needs to be done about it. The Myrmidon and Drake are by far the best 2, and the rest are second and third rate on a good day compared to those. Perhaps a boost to the other BCs to put them more on level with the Myrm and Drake is in order. Devs please take note. *DISCLAIMER* NO -- i didnt lose a ship to either of these NO -- this is not meant to be another nerf thread tho some1 will turn it into one Yes -- i fly a different BC, a Harbinger to be exact, and am very happy with it, but annoyed at the gap between the differnt BCs capabilities
Blind Man Kemono.	Posted - 2007.05.18 00:11:00 - [2] all tier 2 bc's are load better than the T1 also imo thier balance vs command ships needs to be looked at.. (harb has more armor than absol, etc..)
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.18 00:13:00 - [3] While I agree that Myrmidon is good but Drake is best - for what? I'd say the best 2 are Myrmidon and Hurricane with Brutix being a close 3rd... And there is no "vast" imbalance between the BCs.
Lord SPAM Caldari Tok'Ra Inc Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:19:00 - [4] I would like some numbers and proof that one ship is better than the other. Whip out that calculator and get to work if you expect me to believe you. -LordSPAM
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:29:00 - [5] Drake is a PvE ship for the most part. Myrm is a good ship for solo or very small gang. Hurricane, harbinger, and brutix are superior gang ships. Ferox, cyclone, and proph are just poorman's versions of their tier 2s. -
Tyrone Bigams	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Lord SPAM I would like some numbers and proof that one ship is better than the other. Whip out that calculator and get to work if you expect me to believe you. -LordSPAM
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:35:00 - [7] The Myrmidon and the Drake need to be nerfed, and they are going to be. The other issue is how to make tier 1 BCs more competitive. I think that a rebalancing of HPs and cap would be a good place to start and that it might be worth looking at the number of guns the tier 1s can mount (6 should be a minimum.)
Arric Rohr The Knights Templar Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:42:00 - [8] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 The Myrmidon and the Drake need to be nerfed, and they are going to be. The other issue is how to make tier 1 BCs more competitive. I think that a rebalancing of HPs and cap would be a good place to start and that it might be worth looking at the number of guns the tier 1s can mount (6 should be a minimum.) Why? Why do all ships have to be balanced the same? Why do all ships of a class have to be equal? Why should a fun ship be nerfed to make it less fun? Why can't a ship that is not quite as "good" in undefined terms still be fun. Why do people continue to post these pointless threads? Why? AR Where do I get one of those cool signatures?
Byzan Zwyth Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.18 01:46:00 - [9] yeah, the devs should drop what they are doing and come and check your data out asap! oh wait... I dont think there is an issue, the hurricane is just as good as the myrm/drake overall. Some BC's are better than others at particular things. The Harbinger is pretty good too and only really suffers from the same overall problems as all amarr ships. But it's still good. The only other Issue I see is that the harbinger almost completely makes the prophecy obsolite. Although the Prophecy has a tanking bonus the harbi has more armor and is good with a duel rep setup. The other tier 1 BC's are not so obsolite because of the new BC's Myrm = drones, Brutix = guns, so not obsolite Hurricane = armor tank & pure gank bonus, Cyclone = shield tank with bonus, so still has a use. ---------------------- Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc?
Idara Caldari Missioners Anonymous	Posted - 2007.05.18 02:52:00 - [10] Edited by: Idara on 18/05/2007 02:50:46 The Drake is good only because it can passive tank, and that's getting nerfed. The Myrmidon is a drone ship with uber jack-of-all-trades-ness, like the Ishtar, which makes it 4tw like all the other drone boats in their respective classes. The Hurricane is fine, IMO. The Harbinger has some problems, but that's inherited with it's Amarr-ness. I'm not reading the OP as complaining about Tier 1 vs Tier 2 (because Tier 2s are always "better" than Tier 1), so I dunno why everyone else is thinking he is. --- in EVE - Idara
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:15:00 - [11] my problem with amarr medium turrets its there isnt any turret between focused and heavy pulses. So if you want fit the harbinger need to be or full gank or full tank. And full gank only works well in gangs if you want go solo there should be a middle turret like ions to fit some gank and tank. Its a pain fit well a harbri without rigs, they are too much expensive (powergrid rig is one of the most expensive rigs)
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Arric Rohr Originally by: 6Bagheera9 The Myrmidon and the Drake need to be nerfed, and they are going to be. The other issue is how to make tier 1 BCs more competitive. I think that a rebalancing of HPs and cap would be a good place to start and that it might be worth looking at the number of guns the tier 1s can mount (6 should be a minimum.) Why? Why do all ships have to be balanced the same? Why do all ships of a class have to be equal? Why should a fun ship be nerfed to make it less fun? Why can't a ship that is not quite as "good" in undefined terms still be fun. Why do people continue to post these pointless threads? Why? AR I want to see all BCs having useful roles at which they excel, especially in pvp. Just because a ship is of higher tier does not mean it should be hand-down better. Take the Typhoon or the Domi, both are crumby fleet ships compared to the Tempest or the Megathron, but they each have their uses that keep people flying them. I'm simply concerned that tier 1 BCs are getting pushed to the side.
hellsknights Hells Angels Inc. Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.18 05:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 18/05/2007 02:50:46 The Drake is good only because it can passive tank, and that's getting nerfed. The Myrmidon is a drone ship with uber jack-of-all-trades-ness, like the Ishtar, which makes it 4tw like all the other drone boats in their respective classes. The Hurricane is fine, IMO. The Harbinger has some problems, but that's inherited with it's Amarr-ness. I'm not reading the OP as complaining about Tier 1 vs Tier 2 (because Tier 2s are always "better" than Tier 1), so I dunno why everyone else is thinking he is. nullit can passive tank, and that's getting nerfed Wow chill out on the nerf mobile....i like the fact that ships arent equal,makes the game a lot more realistic,is a porsche faster then a civic ???yes but they both have 2 doors so they should be the exact same .... Anyhow ,passive tank wont hit the nerf bat , because its not overpowered or nerf worthy. So keep on running your missions ,and leave the nerf bat alone.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.18 05:50:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/05/2007 05:48:37 CCP is not going to nerf the Myrmidon now. People have been saying its overpowered since the days it was still on the test server. The ship got introduced in a nerfed form, but then buffed twice by ccp to make it into what it is today. All while ships like the hurricane got introduced to be really good, but then lost a turret to make it mediocre again. The thing is, gallente is basically designed to rule close up combat, which means no amount of dps is overpowered. Heavy drones, damage bonuses, preferably with a repper bonus as well... its all fine. Minnie ships sometimes can use their speed to keep away and win a fight though, its up to the pilot to make the ship work for them, not the game. There is a reason most players pick caldari and gallente. Easy mode. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:00:00 - [15] Amarr don't have it as bad as they think the do with the harbinger. A full tank harbinger will still out damage a drake, even a gank one and have a great tank while doing it. Myrmidon, well it mounts an uber tank with a full rack of nos, and still does very decnet damage. Or it can fit for full gank with blasters as well, and get dps comparable to harbinger. The minmater BC gets a dual damage bonus, nuff said. The drake on the other hand, is lacking in dps, and is getting its one good feature nerfed, and that is its tank. And the ferox... well that ship is just a plane joke.... can anyone tell me that the ferox doesnt need a buff? Give it a damage mod at least or give it 7 turret hard points or osmething along those lines. Personally I would like to see the drake and ferox get a buff of some sort, or maybe bring the myrmidon and brutix down to the level of the other battlecruisers.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Fluffernator Amarr don't have it as bad as they think the do with the harbinger. A full tank harbinger will still out damage a drake, even a gank one and have a great tank while doing it. Myrmidon, well it mounts an uber tank with a full rack of nos, and still does very decnet damage. Or it can fit for full gank with blasters as well, and get dps comparable to harbinger. The minmater BC gets a dual damage bonus, nuff said. The drake on the other hand, is lacking in dps, and is getting its one good feature nerfed, and that is its tank. And the ferox... well that ship is just a plane joke.... can anyone tell me that the ferox doesnt need a buff? Give it a damage mod at least or give it 7 turret hard points or osmething along those lines. Personally I would like to see the drake and ferox get a buff of some sort, or maybe bring the myrmidon and brutix down to the level of the other battlecruisers. LOL, pretty easy to see what race ships you fly... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:17:00 - [17] Yes I fly caldari, and I am most likely going to start training gallente ships in the next few weeks. Personally, 7 damage bonused turrets beats 5 range bonused turrets, I have great gunnery skills, I am just flying the incorrect race to use them I guess. So, rather then wait around for a needed fix that will never happen, I am just going to train gallente.
OldPueblo H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.18 09:05:00 - [18] Just a quick point, it generally only takes a couple days to be in another races battlecruiser flying it decently since the battlecruiser skill isn't racial itself. For example, I decide I want to fly the harbinger and I have no actual Amarr specific skills (ships or lasers). Evemon says it'd be 5d23h for me to get to Medium Energy Turret IV and train up Amarr frigs and cruisers high enough, and I already have Battlecruiser to IV and all the relevant armor tanking and gunnery support skills. 5d23h, that's peanuts. If you are **ed that your races ship is **, just train up anothers real quick and fly it too. All the races bleed into each other to an extent and it surprising how little it takes to cross train and be decent. If you want to stay true to your race, by all means make sure you do everything that race is supposed to do, no flexing now!
Nixeh Gallente Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2007.05.18 09:09:00 - [19] The gallente battlecruisers are only good if you have the skills tbh, the brutix without t2 blasters isnt that good, and the myrmidon is not that good with out t2 blasters and t2 heavy drones. I havn't yet flew the myrmidon with t2 heavys (will be soon tho) and i dont be doing nos, ill go blasters. And my alt flys the amarr classes, and he flys the absolution, the harb has more armor than a command ship i mean wtf. Leave all as they are and boost amarr!!!!
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.18 09:14:00 - [20] The only thing that I lack on the BC front is ferox with 7 turrets, so it has some real shiper potential. Moa does it about the same and cheaper. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Yarek Balear Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.05.18 09:42:00 - [21] Why do threads like this always start up with someone only considering the 1v1 issue ??? As others have pointed out, each ship has a different role e.g a Harbinger or Hurricane are a lot better than a Myrmidon for sentry work, since your DPS won't get shot by sentries... Also the damage they do is more instant, so the larger the gang the more instant DPS you want. Balance doesn't mean that every ship is the same - balance means that every ship has a role...
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2007.05.18 09:54:00 - [22] I feel the Hurricane got gimped by loosing the 7th turret. It's still a great ship, but it pales to other BC's for a few reasons. The Hurricane is the only BC that doesn't have a defensive bonus. It sacrificed this for more damage, which in turn was reduced dramatically by axing a turret. The Cane still runs well as a bigger Rupture, which is a decent little ship, but lacking the defense bonus means that most Canes have to use the majority of the low slots to either dual rep or speed tank. Giving back it's 7th turret and changing one of the bonuses to a resist/armour rep would make the cane significantly better. The Cyclone is split weapon systems, with near equal DPS to a Rupture. It's not great. And I do feel the Myrm is overpowered, not only does it have an over-sized dronebay, 6 turret slots, and a great med low setup, it also has 3 bonuses vs every other bcs dual bonus (Drone Damage, Drone HP, Rep Bonus). So in conclusion, buff Gal!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.05.18 10:01:00 - [23] As mentioned above and as I see it: you can't just go around and balance everything for 1v1 pvp combat. It just doesn't work like that. First off: passive shield tanks.. the myrmidon and drake can pull off uber passive tanks, this will be nerfed through Revelation 2.0 (the current version on sisi is a bit weak though, I vote for stacking penalty on shield rechargers and bringing plates and extenders more inline, but what do I know). The myrmidon: honestly, I've said it before they were introduced and I'll say it again: if you want to have it not pwn everything in short range 1v1 pvp (yeah that happens a lot) just change the bonus to only apply to combat drones (being light and medium attack drones). Up the drone bay to 150m^3 (vexor 3x 5 lights = 75m^3, domi 3x 5 heavy = 375m^3, myrmi 3x 5 medium = .. 150m^3 yay for linearity), case closed (orly, the myrmidon has the same amount of slots as the other tier 2 BC??) The drake: nerf to passive tank is enough. The harbinger: actually a nice ship, does kinda require tech II med pulses I suppose The hurricane: actually a nice ship, does kinda require tech II med AC I suppose The tier 1's are a nice addition to the BC section I reckon with 1 obvious exception. The Brutix is the gunboat, nothing wrong with that, kinda like a small hyperion. The Cyclone is for the shield tankers amongst the minni pilots The Prophecy is the tanking amarr BC, great stuff The Ferox needs a slight slot adjustment tbh: instead of the 5/5 turret/bay it should be 6/4 to be inline with the other caldari gunboats/tier 1 BC. So in my opinion, nerfing passive shield tanking should fix most problems, the myrmidon has trouble enough once you kill a single drone, but if needed change it and the ferox should be a gunboat. The problem with the tier2-commandship comparison right now is the fact that there are no tier 2 tech II versions (yet?). This will be kinda hard to fix: either make one of the versions of the command ship the tier 2 one (nighthawk = drakeII, absolution = harbinger II, eos = myrmi II, .. minmatar is a problem..) or figure out some sort of new tech II BC section.. or summin... All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.05.18 10:46:00 - [24] Quote: The Prophecy is the tanking amarr BC, great stuf Oh, really? If it is that great, why don't I see them that often? Yep, cause it is an absolute rabbish if compared to Harbinger. The 25% resist bonus is no where equal to the complex of 25% dmg + 8th hi slot +4 th mid + double sized drone bay (and extra cpu/grid, sure). All BCs are imbalanced, tier2 vs. tier1 and among selves, too. Heck, tier 2 are way too close to even CS in terms of firepower or tanking sometimes.
Aterna Talon's Grasp	Posted - 2007.05.18 12:05:00 - [25] The Ferox is really the only BC that needs adjustment. It needs more turrets. Or a damage bonus. And more grid to fit 250mm rails. I'm curious, how does the Hurricane's DPS compare to the Brutix? Does it have the speed to use range to its advantage? - - - WTB new sig, evemail me please.
Scorpyon Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.05.18 12:45:00 - [26] All the tier 2 battlecruisers are balanced as a group. The fact that they make most hacs obsolete is my only beef w/ them. I think they should be able to either lay down some gankage or be monster tanks. Not both. Scorp
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:12:00 - [27] Edited by: Futuris on 18/05/2007 13:10:16 Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom I feel the Hurricane got gimped by loosing the 7th turret. It's still a great ship, but it pales to other BC's for a few reasons. Eh? Drake has 7 launchers, Harbringer has 7 turrets, Myrmidon has 6 turrets. Why should Hurricane be different? It's an excellent ship the way it is now.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Futuris Edited by: Futuris on 18/05/2007 13:10:16 Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom I feel the Hurricane got gimped by loosing the 7th turret. It's still a great ship, but it pales to other BC's for a few reasons. Eh? Drake has 7 launchers, Harbringer has 7 turrets, Myrmidon has 6 turrets. Why should Hurricane be different? It's an excellent ship the way it is now. Maybe cause the Myrm has 5 heavy drones with 50% per drone to fall back on. And I don't follow, the Drake and Har have 7 weapons apiece the Myrm has 5 heavy drones and the Cane has 6 turrets (and 2 launchers, but the DPS is low, split weapons ftl) The fact that the cane has a double bonus to its weapons is countered by the fact that it needs those bonuses to do bring the turret equiv up. Currently with the bonuses the Cane has the equiv of 7.5 turrets. I never said the Cane is a bad ship, I said it was great. However it's gimped because it effectively has a single bonus due to having a turret striped off. It would be far better off with 7 turrets and a RoF and speed/resist boost bonus.
Shaitis Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:36:00 - [29] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 The Myrmidon and the Drake need to be nerfed, and they are going to be. The other issue is how to make tier 1 BCs more competitive. I think that a rebalancing of HPs and cap would be a good place to start and that it might be worth looking at the number of guns the tier 1s can mount (6 should be a minimum.) This puny Ferox can mount 5 turrets and 2 launchers, but it is not a point. Some ships are not suited for solo and some are pretty nice gang ships. Imagine puting assault launchers and 2 1600 plates and suddently U got nice antifrigate gunboat with decent tank, ofcourse DPS will be weak but together with free med slots for E-WAR such ferox could be suprise, and it is funny cheap.
Futuris Minmatar Nano Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom Originally by: Futuris Edited by: Futuris on 18/05/2007 13:10:16 Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom I feel the Hurricane got gimped by loosing the 7th turret. It's still a great ship, but it pales to other BC's for a few reasons. Eh? Drake has 7 launchers, Harbringer has 7 turrets, Myrmidon has 6 turrets. Why should Hurricane be different? It's an excellent ship the way it is now. Maybe cause the Myrm has 5 heavy drones with 50% per drone to fall back on. And I don't follow, the Drake and Har have 7 weapons apiece the Myrm has 5 heavy drones and the Cane has 6 turrets (and 2 launchers, but the DPS is low, split weapons ftl) The fact that the cane has a double bonus to its weapons is countered by the fact that it needs those bonuses to do bring the turret equiv up. Currently with the bonuses the Cane has the equiv of 7.5 turrets. I never said the Cane is a bad ship, I said it was great. However it's gimped because it effectively has a single bonus due to having a turret striped off. It would be far better off with 7 turrets and a RoF and speed/resist boost bonus. Yeah, perhaps I should have made my post more clear :). Hurricane can only use 6 turrets but in addition it can use 2 launchers while other tier2 BCs cannot fit more than 7 weapons. Yes launchers don't get the ship bonus or the damage bonus from gyros, but it's still 2 extra weapons vs one. With close range ammo it will do more damage than any other tier2 BC, except Myrmidon w/heavy drones.

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