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Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.21 21:11:00 - [1] With Revelations the Caldari finaly got their 8 turret slot "PvP" battleship... and this was a very goo thing. So isn't it about time the other 3 races finaly got their 6/7 missile slot "PvE" battleships? Missiles are without a doubt the weapon of choice for missions and for most NPCing (the possible exclusions being Sansha and Blood Raiders who are arguably better dealt with using shock Amarr vessels). I understand that missiles are the Caldari "thing" but seriously... how "immersed" can I get flying Gallente missions is my CNR? Why should almost everyone feel pressured into training up to at least Caldari Battleship 2 simply because it often has more ratting/mission running potential than their racial battleships at level 5? In short thats all Im asking for, one 6/7 missile slot battleship for each race, with comparable damage output (for example no +5% EM Missile damage for Amarr). The Raven will remain THE primary choice for a long range missile spewing, sheild tanker. The others can be tailored more to their races speciality while maintaining a comparable mission/belt ratting performance to the Raven. Agree/Disagree/Ship Ideas?
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.21 21:49:00 - [2] I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Also there are other missle battleships.... look at minmater. Rails have always been a caldari weapon, so its perfectly fair that caldari got a rail BS. If you give gallente a missle BS you might as well give caldari a drone BS while your at it.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:01:00 - [3] Id have to disagree, even the dominix (which most would agree is the second best NPC vessel) doesn't compare. I cant really compare between BS II and V, but I have Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari at IV and torps will happily clear 3 BS before the Domi would be half way through it's second (thats with Adv Drone Interfacing IV and torps III). But the main issue is ease of use, ratting is enough work already without moving to range, contolling drones, worrying about transversal etc. The time saved by missiles here is a lot, let alone the effort saved (since such things are work enough). As to your second point, Id have no problem at all with every race having a single drone boat, much like my idea for a single missile boat, and the Caldari's single EWAR and Turret battleships. It'd give hopeful carrier pilots a stepping stone, and maybe even aid toweards getting the little darlings fixed. However since guns and missiles are generally enough to cover PvP and PvE with a degree of equality I'd say it would homogenize the race a little too much for the advantage it would give in return. Guess Im just tired of seeing everyone flying Ravens... myself included.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:12:00 - [4] Yeah, ravens are the king of pve, but then again they suck @$$ at pvp. Only ships you see consitntly pvping are the good ole nos domi, and megathron. The game is horrible imbalanced, so just train each race for what its good at.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:18:00 - [5] Raven doesn't suck at PvP. It's not fantastic at fleet combat, but with a gank torp setup + shield tank or armour + EW setup, it's a nice addition to a gang and quite a few peeps use it for solo as well.
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf But the main issue is ease of use, ratting is enough work already without moving to range, contolling drones, worrying about transversal etc. The time saved by missiles here is a lot, let alone the effort saved (since such things are work enough). The drones are bit of a bother to control, I'll admit. But I never worry about transversal for my main because I kite missions and attack from range. My beef is that even though my main (Gallente) is 2 months older than my alt (Caldari), she's a lot, lot, lot better than him at mission running. With not that much more than a million SP in missiles she's doing perfectly fine on the high III's, low IV's. And if it weren't for the fact that I'm pushing her off into a better support role, I'd fit her up with Torpedos and rock the mid-IV's, too. Phoenix Logistics Industries
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:36:00 - [7] Missiles where never intended to be a race specific weapon. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Thor Xian Missiles where never intended to be a race specific weapon. And lvl4's where never ment to be done sole and nither where battleships ment to be soloships But hey! things change!
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.05.21 22:44:00 - [9] Originally by: MuffinsRevenger Originally by: Thor Xian Missiles where never intended to be a race specific weapon. And lvl4's where never ment to be done sole and nither where battleships ment to be soloships But hey! things change! The first leads to all the others. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.21 23:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/05/2007 23:01:21 Gallente and amarr should have droneships and no missileships in their ship lines. Caldari and Minmatar should have missileships in their ship lines. As it is, Amarr are lacking a droneship in their battleship-class hulls (it's coming as the devs have stated sometime earlier, in the form of a relooked apocalypse and together with some Amarr luv), and the Typhoon could live with a more fl;exible fitting (maybe 6/4 or something like that). That's as far as it goes, i think. EDIT: By "no missileships" and "no droneship" I do NOT mean that they should use no missiles/drones rsepectively, I mean that they should not have ships that use them as PRIMARY weapons.
FMarshal Montgomery Caldari Mean Anglo-Danes	Posted - 2007.05.21 23:05:00 - [11] ive always been under the illusion that each race has a strength when it comes to damage: caldari - missiles/EW Gallente - Drones/Hybrid Amarr - Lasers/Energy Minmatar - Projectile/Missiles Of course each race has a mix and match but u only have to look at the domi with is maaaahooosive drone bay and the apoc with its lasers to agree. Ive said it 1000 times before and ill say for the 1001 time, Caldari are 'heavy support' ships My lowest Faction standing is with......Caldari, bugger it 'The Forge' is full of noobs!! Pirates are pussies in Real Life - FACT!
Aya Otosaki Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.05.21 23:13:00 - [12] Edited by: Aya Otosaki on 21/05/2007 23:11:45 Originally by: Fluffernator Yeah, ravens are the king of pve, but then again they suck @$$ at pvp. Only ships you see consitntly pvping are the good ole nos domi, and megathron. The game is horrible imbalanced, so just train each race for what its good at. If they suck so much at pvp, why are there so many pvp vets flying damp ravens. ----- Ignorance is my strength.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.21 23:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/05/2007 23:01:21 Gallente and amarr should have droneships and no missileships in their ship lines. Caldari and Minmatar should have missileships in their ship lines. As it is, Amarr are lacking a droneship in their battleship-class hulls (it's coming as the devs have stated sometime earlier, in the form of a relooked apocalypse and together with some Amarr luv), and the Typhoon could live with a more fl;exible fitting (maybe 6/4 or something like that). That's as far as it goes, i think. EDIT: By "no missileships" and "no droneship" I do NOT mean that they should use no missiles/drones rsepectively, I mean that they should not have ships that use them as PRIMARY weapons. I could go half way and agree with this, just changing the Typhoon to 6/4 would at least give both powerblocks a missile boat. If anyone could get me a quote on the Amarr love it would be great too... frankly if both of these changes made it in I'd be placated. Both sides of the impending war would have a missile boat and a drone boat, and precedent is set for these kind of ships to be present for these races. If they fix drone issues then the Gallente and Amarr might even be as good in PvE as the Caldari and Minmatar would be.
Valandril Caldari Reiketsu. Hitchhiker's Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.22 00:05:00 - [14] Dominx... lvl4... pain... Especialy with new missions design, makes you to leave t2 drones in station (unless u got bpo :\|), with this new system missions are even longer for my poor dominix :( But i can solo anyraven +D --- Cheap paint ftw
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.22 00:39:00 - [15] for every damp raven I see 4-5 nos domis or blasterthrons floating around low sec. Damp raven will die so easily to one nos myrmidon its not even funny.
Zions Child Caldari The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2007.05.22 04:40:00 - [16] Edited by: Zions Child on 22/05/2007 04:39:48 As much as the Raven is overused, i would not like to see the Caldari's only selling point be given to all the other races. That would be almost as bad as a nerf in my opinion, using a bat that has had the Caldari name on it since...forever. The game is horribly unbalanced, but such is the way of life, being that this is an MMO, that will eventually change. However, the diversity of the races, and the fact that you aren't restricted at the very beginning for choosing this race or that race, is one of the best parts about EVE. Caldari are, as far as I see it, evolving into a kind of counter to the Minmatar. The Minmatar have projectiles and to a lesser extent, missles, whereas the Caldari have Missles, and to a lesser extent, rails. Both have the long range weapons, but while Caldari are better with missles, the Minmatar are better with guns. Amarr and Gallente are the same way. They both use drones, with the Gallente focusing on them and short range weapons and the Amarr focusing on long range weapons, which are kind of incompatible with drones. I too, however, would like to see an amarr drone battleship.So CCP sets up parallels, for us to basically choose what we are going to do. Caldari are screwed in PvP. Amarr are less screwed in PvP. The other two are both good at PvP while are crappy at PvE. Caldari can PvE anything anywhere, whereas the Amarr sacrifice a little PvE ability for better PvP options. /end rant , sorry _________________________________________________________________ Wrong! - Cortes YES! I HAD MY SIG EDITED! DEVS FTW!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.22 05:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Fluffernator I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Try shooting guristas with a maxxed skilled laserpoc..then try the same but with a raven with KIN missiles with lvl 2 BS and lvl 1 torps. See who wins. "A raven is bad in fleet fights. Therefor a raven must be bad for all other pvp environments, too" - Your average PVP'er
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.22 05:31:00 - [18] I think there's nothing wrong with giving the gallente a missile bs, but i doubt gallente are willing to train some millions of sp for a new weapon type (like the Caldaris have to, when they want to pvp).
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.22 05:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I think there's nothing wrong with giving the gallente a missile bs, but i doubt gallente are willing to train some millions of sp for a new weapon type (like the Caldaris have to, when they want to pvp). Woah easy on gallente! they're having a rough time pvping as it is! "A raven is bad in fleet fights. Therefor a raven must be bad for all other pvp environments, too" - Your average PVP'er
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.22 05:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Fluffernator I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Try shooting guristas with a maxxed skilled laserpoc..then try the same but with a raven with KIN missiles with lvl 2 BS and lvl 1 torps. See who wins. Ah you play the "wrong damagetype card" ... ok then try this with a blasterthon while having this rat webbed and see who wins.
Valandril Caldari Reiketsu. Hitchhiker's Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.22 05:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Fluffernator I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Try shooting guristas with a maxxed skilled laserpoc..then try the same but with a raven with KIN missiles with lvl 2 BS and lvl 1 torps. See who wins. Ah you play the "wrong damagetype card" ... ok then try this with a blasterthon while having this rat webbed and see who wins. Try to catch guristas rats w/o mwd Other part, try to run guristas missions in dominix, say hi to 3 hours extravaganza (aw yes ccp we LOVE new mission system, not like it either take 3 hours to finish mission or u loose ** drones). --- Cheap paint ftw
Texana Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.05.22 06:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Fluffernator I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Try shooting guristas with a maxxed skilled laserpoc..then try the same but with a raven with KIN missiles with lvl 2 BS and lvl 1 torps. See who wins. Ah you play the "wrong damagetype card" ... ok then try this with a blasterthon while having this rat webbed and see who wins. Try to catch guristas rats w/o mwd Other part, try to run guristas missions in dominix, say hi to 3 hours extravaganza (aw yes ccp we LOVE new mission system, not like it either take 3 hours to finish mission or u loose ** drones). Forget a MWD and trying to catch them, good luck trying to hold a lock on them. They spam ECM non stop.
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.22 06:57:00 - [23] and the problem with your shortrange beeing too shortrange and your long range havving no tracking. I think the phoon should get a 5/5 so it will still have to use both missiles and turrets. having 6 of one of them might make it into a turret- or missile-boat instead of the turret-and-missile-boat it is.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.05.22 08:13:00 - [24] agree, posted the other day about phoon with 6/2 missiles/turrets :P phoon imo scream to be a dedicated missile boat... 5/5 with both bonuses is also not bad but 6/2 with just missile bonuses will make the ship overall more versatile with better gankability and full benefits of missiles high versatility Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.22 08:34:00 - [25] yes byt that would just make it an armour tanked raven the ships uniqeness would be lost and everyone that loves the ship would hate it. i think it is better to maintain the split bonuses but give it a little more flexibility by the 5/5 layout. it wont be as good as the raven for missions but will be a viable choise for the other side (minmatar/galente) if you like to be 'immersed', and gives the armourtankers a missile ship
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.05.22 08:56:00 - [26] no it will make it not another raven bonuses and slot allocation is very different and the ships will be different too. phoon will be generally more suited for shortern range combat and also will be not able to fit a good gank+tank setup, on the other hand it will be more maneuverable and able to fit some ew to compensate the lack of gank or tank Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.22 10:13:00 - [27] as i said, an armour tanked raven that is the usual tradeoff between shield and armour. shield boosts more and get the lows to fit gank. armour get easier permatank and ewar. and it seems most shieldtanks are slower and bigger than their armour counterpart
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.22 10:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Texana Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Fluffernator I promise you... if you have your races BS at 5.. its gonna pve better then raven at 2 lol! Try shooting guristas with a maxxed skilled laserpoc..then try the same but with a raven with KIN missiles with lvl 2 BS and lvl 1 torps. See who wins. Ah you play the "wrong damagetype card" ... ok then try this with a blasterthon while having this rat webbed and see who wins. Try to catch guristas rats w/o mwd Other part, try to run guristas missions in dominix, say hi to 3 hours extravaganza (aw yes ccp we LOVE new mission system, not like it either take 3 hours to finish mission or u loose ** drones). Forget a MWD and trying to catch them, good luck trying to hold a lock on them. They spam ECM non stop. I think a blasterthron against gurista rats would be a serious "external opening pain" any gunship is a pain against rats when compared to cruise\torps, with caldari battleship 3 and minor shield skills i barly have to touch my sheild booster against 3x 1,8 mill spawns... It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.22 11:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/05/2007 11:55:01 Originally by: Ulii as i said, an armour tanked raven By your logic we could call a Rokh or Maelstrom a shield tanked Megathron, and could say that since they all share 7/8 turrets and an armor tank then the Mega, Hype, Geddon, Apoc, and Abaddon are essentialy the same ship and therefore redundant. The Raven (fitting the Caldari theme) is a long range missile boat, with differing slot layouts, grid + CPU, and bonuses any other missile boat would be a very different creature. As for using a blasterthron to rat with... you plan to spend you bounties on 800s for that or just to run out of cap before taking getting to the second BS in the spawn? Same applies to all short range turret based ships unless you dont fit an MWD, then factor in travel time (vs opponents fleeing to their optimal in multiple directions) and you still have a massive problem. [EDIT: Spelling]
Steyr Daghan	Posted - 2007.05.22 12:13:00 - [30] So let me get this straight. You picked Gallente for your char, probably because they "haev teh bestest pvp n pwns", but now that you've trained up on the race you're going boohoo because some other race is better at pve? Poor dear, i'm sure mommy's gonna make it all right.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.22 12:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Steyr Daghan So let me get this straight. You picked Gallente for your char, probably because they "haev teh bestest pvp n pwns", but now that you've trained up on the race you're going boohoo because some other race is better at pve? Poor dear, i'm sure mommy's gonna make it all right. Read up before you attempt to flame. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I cant really compare between BS II and V, but I have Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari at IV and torps will happily clear 3 BS before the Domi would be half way through it's second (thats with Adv Drone Interfacing IV and torps III).
FT Diomedes Gallente Vereor Is Inceptum	Posted - 2007.05.22 12:56:00 - [32] Edited by: FT Diomedes on 22/05/2007 12:55:29 I think a lot of people are ignoring what makes Caldari the logical choice for mission running. It's not just that they use missiles, which are easy to use in real terms (pick the damage type, don't ever miss, etc.) They are not very SP intensive. A relatively new character can run missions very easily as a Caldari player because he can passive shield tank and focus on just using missiles with a minimum of SPs. He can get the most out of his ship at a low SP level. That is the effect of having missile-oriented ships. The same would be true if the other races had effective set-ups that truly allowed them to only train one weapon set. Contrast that with a Gallente player, who must train both hybrids and drones to get the most out of his ship. Contrast that with a Minmatar character, who must train missiles and guns to get the most out of his ship. Contrast that with Amarr... I'm also getting sick of seeing people claim that the Caldari are no good at PvP. This is just nonsense. They might not have been as good at fleet sniper battles, but I've seen plenty of effective Caldari setups in smaller scale PvP. Most PvP is not huge fleet battles fought at hundreds of kilometers. It is quick and dirty close range combat. The missile/rocket flight time doesn't matter much at all at less than 20km. PS - I personally don't find it at all hard to run missions as a Gallente character. It requires some thought and you have to pay attention. In other words, you cannot solo afk a level 4. But is that what Eve is really about? Is the goal to solo afk the game? ------------------------------------------------ FT Diomedes - That ship looks like one of those centipede things from that game, what's it called? FT Cold - Centipede. FT Diomedes - That's it!
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.05.22 13:20:00 - [33] This game is orientated against PvP and not doing missions though is certainly supported. Honestly I feel that giving other races some missile ships will make the game unjoyfull and if people believe Raven is so damn good they are free to train it up. Sure it is excellent at PvE due to always hitting and selecting THE damage type necesary, but giving all races a dedicated missile ship isn't the way to do it... Minmatar does have partial missile ships and Perhaps Amarr should have some more launcher slots on a few of their ships... Gallente get their drones - For pvp at least they are very useful and most caldari T2 ships don't even have room for a single light drone. - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
General Apocalypse Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.05.22 13:33:00 - [34] Originally by: FMarshal Montgomery ive always been under the illusion that each race has a strength when it comes to damage: Amarr - Lasers/Energy This are strenghts And for ratting Sanhsa/Blood Raven is better then other things. Thank You SkyFlyer
Steyr Daghan	Posted - 2007.05.22 14:01:00 - [35] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Read up before you attempt to flame. I did. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf So isn't it about time the other 3 races finaly got their 6/7 missile slot "PvE" battleships? I read this as "why can't all races have the same good stuff?". It was followed up with posts such as: Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron My beef is that even though my main (Gallente) is 2 months older than my alt (Caldari), she's a lot, lot, lot better than him at mission running. Which translates to "boohoo, sniff, gallente can't pve as good as caldari". Hence my post. Obviously it would be bad for the game to have four identical races who are equally good at all things.
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.22 14:05:00 - [36] Want to trade: 1 missile boat for 1 drone/blaster/tackler/nosser/tanker boat.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.22 14:26:00 - [37] How long does it take to train Caldari Battleship from scratch? 2 weeks? Maybe you can point out which battleship you are willing to sacrifice for a dedicated missile boat, because looking at the other 3 race's tier 1 battleships I cannot say that I am very happy with a dedicated E-war platform (the falcon can do it better anyway).
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.22 15:33:00 - [38] Loving the replies so far, seems the community is split between those who beleive PvE and missiles are the Caldari's only strength and should remain theirs alone, and those who feel that having one race hold the position of "King of PvE" is just as imbalanced as having one race be "King of PvP". Yes, it takes very little time to train up for a Raven... but thats not the point. You might as well tell the Amarr not to worry about the issues their ships have since they can train another race. Also you could counter by saying that if other races had missile boats they too would take little time to train for since it is the skills requirted for good turret use that slow players down not those needed for the tank.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.22 19:23:00 - [39] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Yes, it takes very little time to train up for a Raven... but thats not the point. You might as well tell the Amarr not to worry about the issues their ships have since they can train another race. If those "issues" are all about not having a missile-battleship specializing in PVE, then yes. You might as well do that.
Leikung	Posted - 2007.05.23 00:28:00 - [40] If you want to lfy missle boats, train for them. Not all navys are the same, nor equal
Corwain Gallente Zero Team	Posted - 2007.05.23 00:57:00 - [41] Edited by: Corwain on 23/05/2007 00:55:39 Originally by: Steyr Daghan So let me get this straight. You picked Gallente for your char, probably because they "haev teh bestest pvp n pwns", but now that you've trained up on the race you're going boohoo because some other race is better at pve? Poor dear, i'm sure mommy's gonna make it all right. Now this is the thing I hate about all these people who hate Gallente because they're "the best at PvP" not even true. Good yes, best, maybe overall, but Minnies aren't far behind and at any role a Gallente ship might not be the best for. Anyhow, when I trained Gallente everyone told me to train Caldari because at the time dualMWD raven's ECMed up the wazoo were king, or Amarr puleboats with lows FULL of Heatsink IIs. But no, I chose Gallente cause I thought drones were cool, like your own little squad of X-Wings or something. Now, more on topic: with minimal skills a Raven is indeed superior at PvE than ANY OTHER RACES BS. I know, cause I used to try with Gallente, and Amarr. Drones move too slowly and get blown up by random aggro bugs. You can't MWD in deadspace to use lasers and large guns can't track anything smaller/faster than a BS. Amarr damage types suck, and you have to sacrifice your precious lows for cap relays since they have so little mids for cap recharger IIs and injected setups last like 10mins tops, missions take an hour each with a Raven, much less a turretship. EDIT: Just wanted to make it clear though that I'm against giving other races missileboats except maybe Minmater. I <3 my drones. Missiles can hit lowest damage type and laugh at tracking. I run missions 3-4x faster in my lvl2BS Raven with lvl1 cruise than my lvl5BS Domi, Mega or Hype.
Zhulik Abyss Restless Proper Response	Posted - 2007.05.23 01:59:00 - [42] Leave the ships be. Give each race their own Achuras, I say.
Ecky X The Aforementioned	Posted - 2007.05.23 02:45:00 - [43] I feel you can PvE with Minmatar just as well as you can with Caldari. Artillery have atrocious tracking, but a Maelstrom with a rack of 1200's and a few tracking mods can hit most anything. The Maelstrom also has a nice drone bay, so you can back 10 mediums to kill frigates and close stuff. It has the same slot layout as the Raven, but with twice the powergrid, and a tanking bonus. ALSO, you can choose your damage type, and if the NPCs are all close, you can use a high-damage ammo. The Typhoon is also very good, if you're creative. -----
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.23 04:17:00 - [44] If other races want good mission running ships, I say let them have it. As long as races are getting what they want, give Caldari a line of truely solid PVP ships.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.23 04:29:00 - [45] People don't realize that caldari is much more hyped up for PVE then mos t people realize. There needs to be a line drawn here..... Caldari are the best mission runners. Ratting goes to gallente, and heres why. You can pick your damage type with the type of drones you fly. Take a domi with soe hybrids and the drones of the right flavor and it will kill the rats much faster then a raven. Gallente is really not as bad at missions as these people whine. I used to run missions in moas and feroxes with rail guns, so if you think you have it bad using BONUSED turrets, try it with a **** split system that does laughable damage.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:01:00 - [46] Originally by: Spacer John If other races want good mission running ships, I say let them have it. As long as races are getting what they want, give Caldari a line of truely solid PVP ships. Caldari ships are excellent in PvP.... just not so much in solo PvP. As for Minmatar PvE ability it's a simple case of no matter how much you train up your skills your not going to outdo the 2/3 extra missile slots on a Raven/CNR and the more you do train up the more the Raven would benefit from those same skills. I'll admit when it comes to ratting theres not such a huge gap between Gallente and Caldari, but Minmatar and Amarr fall behind a lot. It all depends on the rats of course, but tracking is a real pain. So give the Amarr a drone boat and the Minmatar a 6/4 'phoon and things should balance out a bit.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'll admit when it comes to ratting theres not such a huge gap between Gallente and Caldari, but Minmatar and Amarr fall behind a lot. It all depends on the rats of course, but tracking is a real pain. So give the Amarr a drone boat and the Minmatar a 6/4 'phoon and things should balance out a bit. If the Phoon gets 6 missile slots I demand a drone bay of 175 m^3 on the Raven. No really, this would make the Phoon an improved Raven. And a very good reason for every Caldari to train Minmatar.
Wanten RONA Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:50:00 - [48] sure if they wanna give the domi 6 missiles slots im all for it, that with drones and an armour tank and tackling slots is a iwin button, ditto for the other races too. Like someone has already said caldari a heavy support bs, they find it hard to tank and tackle so are useless solo, this is where other races have the advantage. RONA Corporation
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:51:00 - [49] There is already a non-Caldari missile boat in the game - I refer of course to the Inquisitor. As for new missile boats, a lot of us are hoping that Khanid mk2 will give us some. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Mona X Caldari C0VEN	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:13:00 - [50] Does anyone noticed, that Caldari specialize not only in missiles (Kestrel, Caracal, Drake, Raven, Cerberus, Nighthawk), but also with railguns (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Eagle, Vulture, and finaly Rokh). Yes, Rokh is not some kind bonus for those "overpowered" Caldari, but simply fulfill lack of railgun BS.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Mona X Does anyone noticed, that Caldari specialize not only in missiles (Kestrel, Caracal, Drake, Raven, Cerberus, Nighthawk), but also with railguns (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Eagle, Vulture, and finaly Rokh). Of course. But that is not what this thread is about. (See title.)
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:18:00 - [52] Originally by: Mona X Does anyone noticed, that Caldari specialize not only in missiles (Kestrel, Caracal, Drake, Raven, Cerberus, Nighthawk), but also with railguns (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Eagle, Vulture, and finaly Rokh). Yes, Rokh is not some kind bonus for those "overpowered" Caldari, but simply fulfill lack of railgun BS. I'd like to think that since when the Rokh was coming out a lot of Caldari went crazy over it not being a missile boat that the point has been made enough times for it to be remembered. But I'd like to think a lot of things. Also I dont see anyone claiming the Caldari are overpowered here.
Mona X Caldari C0VEN	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:31:00 - [53] Edited by: Mona X on 23/05/2007 11:31:46 Originally by: Ogul Of course. But that is not what this thread is about. (See title.) No, thread is about "OMG Caldari has turret and missile BSes and I have only turret and drone. CCP pimp my ride.". If OP wants missile boat, he should train Caldari, if he wants to be Jack of all trades, he should train Minmatar.
MarKand Apeiron Fleet	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:45:00 - [54] Its very intressting to read all versions, and I think that is the real point, fly what you fancy ! I can fly allraces except Amarr ships, and I also use a Raven in missions, and a phoon, or my tempest. It is basicly depending on the mission type. My PERSONAL opinion however, is that one of the most capable ships in all of Eve is the phoon, the problem is that you have to be+20M in SP to start using it benefits. To be a little funnt about it, You might say the prereq. for a phoon is the Minmatar Dread, once u have the dread skills , u will fly a phone excellet. And I really dont get the 2 discussions about racestuff and the PvP/ PvE stuff. Worse race ever to pick, IMHO was Matar, Matar is not only Gunnery and Missiles, it also drones, Matar has a little from all races, so thats why it takes 3x times to be really good in matar ships, IMHO again. For example, in my phoon i need to use T2 tank and basicly all of it T2 to really get the dmg/tank working, only exclusin is Missiles, since they hit and do dmg anyway. But when my phoon hammers down a ship with AC¦s, Torps/Cruise and 5 heavydrones, it is a very fast happening. And the second issue, PvP / PvE, I am sorry , but again IMHO BASED on real trail and error in war and roaming ops for a very long time in eve, I had to say, it isnt the ship, it is the pilot. Ive been so pownd by "lesser" ships with pilots knowing how to squese all og it from their ship, and I have totaly overkilled "TheeePVPship" with sucky pilots that belive the ship it self will save them. Fitting and knowledge and brain will win more fights and make more mission isk for you then any ship, and as a final word i really would like to add the stuff I really learnt,different racial ships combined is the WINbutton in eve. And to OP, no I really wouldnt like to see all races turn Caldari, the same way I wouldnt like all burgerbars to be McD, i like to have the option to choose :) Safe flying /M
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:52:00 - [55] Originally by: Mona X Edited by: Mona X on 23/05/2007 11:31:46 Originally by: Ogul Of course. But that is not what this thread is about. (See title.) No, thread is about "OMG Caldari has turret and missile BSes and I have only turret and drone. CCP pimp my ride.". If OP wants missile boat, he should train Caldari, if he wants to be Jack of all trades, he should train Minmatar. Please read threads you intend to reply to. I have trained Caldari and Minamatar, I didn't make this thread because I don't have a missile boat, I have CNR, it just feels wrong using it to fly Gallente and Minamatar missions with and I'm not even a role-player. Also if you'd read the thread through you'd realise that I've been conviced that universal missile boats probably aren't a good idea, but having a Minmatar missile boat and Amarr drone boat probably is. Many will disagree... and this is good. Also I certainly wasn't asking CCP anything, I was asking for opinions. I don't automatically decide Im right, Im open to other ideas, and happy to change my mind when Im wrong. I simply opened discussion on the point. On that note Im going to stop whoring my own thread for awhile, so could people please keep the "OMG" attitude and flames to a minimum. Try to keep it constructive folks.
Kaylee Kaitlen Gallente Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:23:00 - [56] IMO, the problem is not that the other races need a missle boat, it's that the other races need the ability to PvE effectively. Unfortunately, given the current state of the game, PvE effectiveness == missles. I became Gallente because I liked drones. I trained up a Myr, and then a Domi. However, after loosing drone after expensive drone to full-stage aggro and various AI stupidity. I decided to spend a couple of weeks and train up a Drake. It's sad that I can mission much quicker, safer and cheaper in a missle BC than I can in a drone BS (and yes, I have trained tech 2 drones). I can only speak for Gallente, but I'd really prefer to see drones fixed rather than just write them off completely for PvE by giving Gallente a missle boat.
ForumPosterAlt	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:33:00 - [57] They really need to remove the turret/missile distinction and just make the ship distinction be in ship bonuses. I doubt anyone will complain being able to pve in something other than a raven.
Ashaz	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:44:00 - [58] From the ship database: Quote: Developer: Roden Shipyards Unlike most Gallente ship manufacturers, Roden Shipyards tend to favor missiles over drones and their ships generally possess stronger armor. Their electronics capacity, however, tends to be weaker than that of their competitorsGÇÖ. Let them build us a pink bs! :)
Ashaz	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Spacer John If other races want good mission running ships, I say let them have it. As long as races are getting what they want, give Caldari a line of truely solid PVP ships. mokay. just cause you asked so nicely =) Crow Coromant Harpy Hawk Manticore Flycatcher BlackBird Rook Cerberus Ferox Drake Nighthawk Scorp Rokh
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:18:00 - [60] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/05/2007 14:16:08 Tbh when all things are said and done (and excluding the new EW craze being counterable by cruise Ravens and nothing else), the Raven and its derivates are the best ships for less than 50% of the missions imho. Guristas and Serpentis missions can probably be done better in a well skilled and fitted Railthron/Railhype, maybe even a sentry domi (I doubt this though as I am really struggling to fit good tank AND gank on that one). Most Blood/Sansha/Drone can definitely be done better in an Abaddon. That leaves Angel missions as pure Raven territory due to the ****ty base DPS of arties and no doouble damage bonus minnie ship with 7+ turrets, and the ones against empire factions. The Ravens real strong point is not that it is the best at everything, but that it is second best at everything where it is not best. So it is by far the best tool for lazy people, of which we probably have far too many :) So just from this point the only race really needing a missile boat is Minmatar. And the phoon is an obvious candidate. But I am afraid turing it into a real missile boat (meaning it would need a velocity bonus too) would kill what currently attracts me to it. So I would vote no on this plan. Unless maybe it gets 7/7 slots and just replaces the missile RoF bonus with a velocity one... Hmm, now heres an idea lol. Personally I would also love it if Khanid MkII came along and turned the currently pretty useless Apoc black, i.e. making it an armortanking missile boat, but thats just me being a Khanid fancier and mourning the lack of use for such a majestic ship as the Apoc. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Ecky X The Aforementioned	Posted - 2007.05.23 16:03:00 - [61] Without going faction, the Typhoon can out-(sustained)tank a Raven. Now, what do you think does more damage, 6 bonus'd missiles, or 4 bonus'd missiles + 4 bonus'd guns + 5 heavy/medium drones? I know for a fact that most Raven pilots don't even bother putting drones in their bay. It just takes a bit more thinking, but the Typhoon is a great mission runner. -----
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.23 16:53:00 - [62] Originally by: Ecky X Without going faction, the Typhoon can out-(sustained)tank a Raven. Now, what do you think does more damage, 6 bonus'd missiles, or 4 bonus'd missiles + 4 bonus'd guns + 5 heavy/medium drones? I know for a fact that most Raven pilots don't even bother putting drones in their bay. It just takes a bit more thinking, but the Typhoon is a great mission runner. Uhm... Nope. The Typhoon might make a great overtanked crap damage mission runner a'la Apoc. But it does not make a great mission runner and especially not one that can rival the Raven. It might do more damage on paper, but thats about it. If you fit arties, you are gunna miss tons at close range due to crap tracking. Plus you need to sacrifice lows for fitting mods. If you fit ACs, you will have to travel a lot to get them in range. And your 5 heavy drones also have to slowboat between targets a lot. And of course without velocity bonus your missiles spend a lot more time flying too. All this vastly reduces the damage that actually is at your disposal during the mission, while the Raven dps is more constant with only slight fluctuations from med drone travel times. Not to mention that a Raven actually CAN outpermatank a typhoon even without faction gear, and still fit two BCUs. Those two NOS it can fit into its spare highs give a lot of cap, enough to actually permarun a T2 XL booster and still fit two BCUs. There is a lot more to a good mission runner that raw DPS or a solid tank. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.05.23 19:20:00 - [63] Originally by: FT Diomedes Edited by: FT Diomedes on 22/05/2007 12:55:29 I think a lot of people are ignoring what makes Caldari the logical choice for mission running. It's not just that they use missiles, which are easy to use in real terms (pick the damage type, don't ever miss, etc.) They are not very SP intensive. A relatively new character can run missions very easily as a Caldari player because he can passive shield tank and focus on just using missiles with a minimum of SPs. He can get the most out of his ship at a low SP level. That is the effect of having missile-oriented ships. The same would be true if the other races had effective set-ups that truly allowed them to only train one weapon set. Contrast that with a Gallente player, who must train both hybrids and drones to get the most out of his ship. Contrast that with a Minmatar character, who must train missiles and guns to get the most out of his ship. Contrast that with Amarr... I'm also getting sick of seeing people claim that the Caldari are no good at PvP. This is just nonsense. They might not have been as good at fleet sniper battles, but I've seen plenty of effective Caldari setups in smaller scale PvP. Most PvP is not huge fleet battles fought at hundreds of kilometers. It is quick and dirty close range combat. The missile/rocket flight time doesn't matter much at all at less than 20km. PS - I personally don't find it at all hard to run missions as a Gallente character. It requires some thought and you have to pay attention. In other words, you cannot solo afk a level 4. But is that what Eve is really about? Is the goal to solo afk the game? Quoted because it's exactly what I was thinking. All the time you hear the same old 'Caldari sucks at PvP' argument. But almost never is this accompanied by some hard numbers. Sure, missiles are of little use in long range fleet battles. But that's hardly all of EVE's PvP. Perhaps it could even be fixed with 'missile-boosters' or a missile acceleration curve. Regarding the Amarr love and a possible Apoc drone boat - I hope that's a bad joke. I don't have a problem with the Arbitrator, but the Drone-Apoc would probably be better than the Dominix, and that's wrong. I think all the 'making races more alike' suggestions are bad ideas. When equalisation is the last hope and means for balance, the devs have failed miserably. Of course perfect balance is when everybody uses the same stuff.. _________________________________ - People are people wherever you go -

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