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Veritas Falx	Posted - 2007.05.27 16:22:00 - [1] Why does every say they are broken besides cap use?
errorist Caldari Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.27 16:29:00 - [2] Cause they are comparing to gallente and minmatar :)
Vaine Amarr Amarr Upright Citizens Brigade	Posted - 2007.05.27 16:55:00 - [3] Amarr arent bad, thats just something noobs say. __________________________ It's great beeing Amarr, ain't it? O rly?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.27 16:59:00 - [4] Forum war says if you want something buffed you need to whine lots.
vr0p Gallente The Mavericks Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.05.27 17:06:00 - [5] The ships are dependent on cap for firing, therefore to compensate, one uses cap rechargers. Amarr ships have few mid slots (with a few exceptions, e.g. Curse), so that usually leaves no room for tackling. You could use rigs for cap recharge rate, which is effective, but you could have used those rigs for, say, damage on a different race's ship. The redeeming factor of Amarr ships is their superb armor tank, which leaves no room for Capacitor Power Relays. So basically Amarr ships are "broken" in solo/small gang pvp due to their lack of utility mid slots. Every ship has weaknesses though... so it's not really a big deal, IMO.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.27 17:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types. Gallente has this problem too, but they got drones to compensate. I think amarr needs to have a bit more damage bonus for their las0rs. That would be enough. - Recruitment open again-
Elhina Novae Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.05.27 17:33:00 - [7] Well i am kinda new so my opinion might get flamed lol. I am a Amarr myself... But laser weapons drain capacitor and deals less damage as i understand this. Though no need to buy ammunition for my weapons so no need to worry about that ( Well crystals is a one-time thing... ) And Amarr are great tanks! I got no problem at all with level 1 missions in my destroyer with a Small Armor Repair II. will soon buy my Cruiser the Maller and use a Medium Armor Repair II and start with level 2 missions. Imo so far the damage aren't that great but it absolutely works. And there is no problem with tanking. The only downside for me was that I had to increase my Cap-skills now in the begining but now that its mostly done the capacitor is awsome! /// by NOOB http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=523330&page=1
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.27 17:58:00 - [8] Edited by: madaluap on 27/05/2007 17:57:07 There are some factors that make them less effective. Energized adaptives, nos, harse fitting requirments, capusage. TBH thats it. Nerf all of those and suddenly gallente will be crap again, because why bother with neutron 2 + null, -25% cap, if you can use megapulse 2 with Multifreq. There are two races that have allways been very capintensive, gallente and amarr. Gallente benefitted the most from the dronebuf and fitting requirments for blasters were reduced, this means that the megathron doesnt require 1 co-proc standard anymore to fit a blastersetup. Lateron energized adaptives were boost and suddenly the biggest damagedealer was gallente (even in gangs). It kinda hangs together, people used to have atleast 2 siegebays on their BS, if you couldnt hit your target those sieges would hit a frig for 1200 damage. Why nos if you can insta pop em? I just named a couple of things but there are plenty more. Its a process that takes some time and the game evolves a lot. Atm amarr is less strong, but im pretty sure training into amarr will probably turn out to be the best invesment ever. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Shirazz Amarr Original Pirating Material	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:00:00 - [9] Elhina, I hate to burst your bubble, but you will come to learn that the other 3 races can do that very thing better than us because of the more limited cap use of their guns =please dont pwn this one meow :(=
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:08:00 - [10] Edited by: madaluap on 27/05/2007 18:07:49 Originally by: Shirazz Elhina, I hate to burst your bubble, but you will come to learn that the other 3 races can do that very thing better than us because of the more limited cap use of their guns lol, -25% capacitor for fitting mwd and about 10% less capusage with AM firing blasters. Thats a crap reason. The reason why a race is less effective cant be blamed on just 10% capdifference when firing. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:40:00 - [11] Amarr sucks because EM damage type sucks. That's really the main reason. Everyone armor tanks and EM damage sucks against armor. If they switched the base armor EM and Kinetic resistances on ships, or if people actually started shield tanking EVER, Gallente would suck and Amarr would be on top. The increased cap usage for Amarr kinda sucks but would be fair if EM damage type wasn't utterly awful, because lasers generally do quite a bit more damage than all the other weapons. Numerically, pulse lasers do more DPS than everything but neutron blasters, and it's quite hard to both stay within optimal and still track your target with neutrons. Tachyons, again numerically, outdamage all other ranged weapons by a large margin but again are crippled by doing majority EM damage.
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:43:00 - [12] Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 27/05/2007 18:42:51 Originally by: Xequecal Amarr sucks because EM damage type sucks. That's really the main reason. Everyone armor tanks and EM damage sucks against armor. If they switched the base armor EM and Kinetic resistances on ships, or if people actually started shield tanking EVER, Gallente would suck and Amarr would be on top. The increased cap usage for Amarr kinda sucks but would be fair if EM damage type wasn't utterly awful, because lasers generally do quite a bit more damage than all the other weapons. Numerically, pulse lasers do more DPS than everything but neutron blasters, and it's quite hard to both stay within optimal and still track your target with neutrons. Tachyons, again numerically, outdamage all other ranged weapons by a large margin but again are crippled by doing majority EM damage. In most cases EM is actually the lowest resist BTW. Only flying minmatar armor tanked ships is the EMP pretty high, but thats a role play thing, personally I'd like minmatar have a 60 em base resist and bump up the kinetic. Amarr would be better, imo, if the CLOSE RANGE guns, had like 30-50% better tracking than they do atm, and the LONG RANGE given a reduction in powergrid. Amarr ships need some serious ammout of extra CPU too.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Originally by: Xequecal Amarr sucks because EM damage type sucks. That's really the main reason. Everyone armor tanks and EM damage sucks against armor. If they switched the base armor EM and Kinetic resistances on ships, or if people actually started shield tanking EVER, Gallente would suck and Amarr would be on top. The increased cap usage for Amarr kinda sucks but would be fair if EM damage type wasn't utterly awful, because lasers generally do quite a bit more damage than all the other weapons. Numerically, pulse lasers do more DPS than everything but neutron blasters, and it's quite hard to both stay within optimal and still track your target with neutrons. Tachyons, again numerically, outdamage all other ranged weapons by a large margin but again are crippled by doing majority EM damage. In most cases EM is actually the lowest resist BTW. Amarr would be better, imo, if the CLOSE RANGE guns, had like 30-50% better tracking than they do atm, and the LONG RANGE given a reduction in powergrid. Amarr ships need some serious ammout of extra CPU too. People make EM their lowest resist because noone flies Amarr.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:52:00 - [14] The main reason people say they are broken is because of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II (EANM) modules. They are common on armor tanks and since armor already has good em/therm resistance, they get 2x as good of a tank against Amarr as compared to anyone else. (this is one of the reasons AC's are so good too, they do the right damage types against EANM tanks. For close range weapons I think both autocannons and blasters are better (because of tracking as well as the less dependancy on cap). For long range weapons and capacitor Amarr have the best ships. Their snipers do the most dps (although the rokh's range bonus kinda trumps dps). The beam weapon and capacitor superiority become especially apperent in the capital ships. Revelation with beams does the most dps of all dreads at all ranges (provided they are also using their long range weapons. Also, the Archon carrier has a great capacitor. -Bart CCP: please fix the asteroids in the new regions.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:55:00 - [15] The Revelation does the best dreadnaught DPS? It only has 3 guns. The Minmatar dread fits 4 guns and has a bigger RoF bonus for launchers.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.27 19:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 27/05/2007 18:55:16 The Revelation does the best dreadnaught DPS? It only has 3 guns. The Minmatar dread fits 4 guns/launchers and has a bigger RoF bonus for launchers. And yet it still can't keep up with a Revelation. There's 2 reasons. First reason is that beams do significantly more dps than both howitzers and capital launchers. Second reason is that damage modules on a rev affect 3 guns, damage mods on the Nag affect 2. Perhaps a Nag with a shield tank (so low slots can be used for dmg mods) and setup for only close range (no range mods being used) could out damage a Rev but otherwise it's a pretty uphill battle. CCP: please fix the asteroids in the new regions.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 19:06:00 - [17] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 27/05/2007 17:57:07 There are some factors that make them less effective. Energized adaptives, nos, harse fitting requirments, capusage. TBH thats it. Nerf all of those and suddenly gallente will be crap again, because why bother with neutron 2 + null, -25% cap, if you can use megapulse 2 with Multifreq. There are two races that have allways been very capintensive, gallente and amarr. Gallente benefitted the most from the dronebuf and fitting requirments for blasters were reduced, this means that the megathron doesnt require 1 co-proc standard anymore to fit a blastersetup. Lateron energized adaptives were boost and suddenly the biggest damagedealer was gallente (even in gangs). It kinda hangs together, people used to have atleast 2 siegebays on their BS, if you couldnt hit your target those sieges would hit a frig for 1200 damage. Why nos if you can insta pop em? I just named a couple of things but there are plenty more. Its a process that takes some time and the game evolves a lot. Atm amarr is less strong, but im pretty sure training into amarr will probably turn out to be the best invesment ever. About the Gallente being best damage dealers...isnt it how its supposed to be a great damage but limited range? Only thing that needs a addition is maybe one more damage type for gallente and amarr. Give Amarr explosive, and Gallente EM. EANM tanks, pretty much only good thing Gallente have for blaster setups, selected membranes for each damage type eat space used for dmg mods, and active hardeners eat too much CPU/cap. ---
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.05.27 19:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Xequecal Edited by: Xequecal on 27/05/2007 18:55:16 The Revelation does the best dreadnaught DPS? It only has 3 guns. The Minmatar dread fits 4 guns/launchers and has a bigger RoF bonus for launchers. And yet it still can't keep up with a Revelation. There's 2 reasons. First reason is that beams do significantly more dps than both howitzers and capital launchers. Second reason is that damage modules on a rev affect 3 guns, damage mods on the Nag affect 2. Perhaps a Nag with a shield tank (so low slots can be used for dmg mods) and setup for only close range (no range mods being used) could out damage a Rev but otherwise it's a pretty uphill battle. Is the siege module damage bonus stacking nerfed with heatsinks/gyrostabs/BCUs? I always wondered that. The numbers just don't seem to lend to the Amarr dread doing significantly higher DPS. Are you sure you're not seeing higher DPS because you mostly use them to reinforce POSs, which consists of shooting at shields with low EM resist?
Ma Raia'l Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.27 19:52:00 - [19] From my observations (and having only flown Amarrian ships as per PIE rules) this is what I believe to be "wrong" with Amarr ships -the prevalence of NOS Amarr ships are extremely dependent on cap to function. Our weapons take a lot of it (even with the cap reduction bonus), and our armour tanks require a lot of it. Just 1 or 2 NOS's against an Amarr ship can decimate their cap use/recharge balance, and effectively completely disable our ships. Cap boosters are usually not an option on anything but the Harbinger and BS's because of the very limited med slots Amarrian ships have. -the prevalence of Omnitanks EM damage is the Amarrian damage of choice. EANM+DC tanks are very common these days, and thus our main damage type, EM, is usually the highest resistance on armour. Raising the EM resistance on armour from 60 to 80 effectively halves the damage lasers do. -Range and tracking of Pulses and the fitting requirements of Beams Pulse lasers are currently the bastard child when it comes to range. They have more range than blasters and autocannons, but less range than rails and artillery. Pulses exist as the 'medium range' gun in EvE. This is a problem. There are no other medium range weapon system in EvE (not including missiles as they are just as effective at any range). Blasters and AC's are short range, Rails, Artillery, and Beams are long range (but Beams are too heavy on fitting requirements to justify them on anything but sniper setups). The tracking on pulses is not high enough for them to be effective at close range, nor do they have the range to defend against snipers and long range ships. So, why not fit a MWD so you can dictate range? Well, this goes back to the Amarrian cap issue (not to mention Amarrian ships being the 2nd slowest in EvE).Everything Amarrian ships do requires already high amounts of cap. reducing that cap by a whole 25% is effectively killing your ship and your setup. It is simply not viable to fit a MWD on Amarrian ship and still do the things (gank and/or armour tank) that the ship was designed for, as you are just using up to much cap. -What Amarr does, other races do better So, what is the Amarrian niche? What do Amarrian ships excel at? Well judging by the majority of our ships bonuses and what we've been told in the backstory, Amarrians ships are supposed to be the masters of turret ganking and armour tanking. However, this presently isn't the case. The main issue here is, quite frankly, Gallente ships. Blasters do more DPS than lasers in every case (and have much better damage types), and ships like the Myrmidon and Hyperion can field nigh-unbreakable armour tanks (this I know from personal experience trying to kill these ships). Well pulses have longer range than blasters, kill them before they get close, you say. As stated above, it is simply not viable for these slow, heavily cap dependent Amarrian ships to dictate range. A MWD'ing blaster boat will close the (short) gap between pulse lasers and blaster range in no time, and when they are their there is little Amarrian ships can do as we (again, as stated above) lack the tracking to hit point blank targets. -What Amarrian ships can't do, other races can Now I'm not talking about EW and the like, or specific racial roles. What I'm referring to is the ability for every other race of ship to be able to continue to do something when Amarrian ships cannot do the same thing. Gallente ships still have drones to do damage if they are capped out, projectiles and missiles don't use cap either. Caldari ships can still tank with no cap thanks to passive shield tanks as well. If an Amarrian ship is out of cap, or EW'd it can not do any effective damage, nor maintain any semblance of a tank, where as every other race still can do either of these things. So, that's what I believe to be "wrong" with Amarrian ships(but I still love them anyway and will die before I fly another race of ships).
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:07:00 - [20] Only correction to your above post, is that if your referring to sotryline, then Amarr are mostly armor tank and capacitor kings, DPS top always been mentioned for gallente as half of ships descriptions say stuff like 'close-up-and personall combat' or 'decimating enemies at close range'. ---
Ma Raia'l Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:13:00 - [21] Originally by: n0thing Only correction to your above post, is that if your referring to sotryline, then Amarr are mostly armor tank and capacitor kings, DPS top always been mentioned for gallente as half of ships descriptions say stuff like 'close-up-and personall combat' or 'decimating enemies at close range'. Fair enough, but if we're the capacitor kings, the argument is still valid. Amarrian cap is extremely fragile. Not something I would expect from the 'kings' of cap.
Akane Miyamoto Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Akane Miyamoto on 27/05/2007 20:14:51 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types. WHAT? Oh man.. A T2 fitted pulse geddon broke my dominix' tank (And he did it very fast concidering all my resists were 75-80). Something a T2 neutron hyperion with maxed gunnery supports and gallente BS lv4 couldn't do. Yeah, not enough damage. I would be dead by now if he had fitted a cap injector --------------- The Miyamotos, Chaper #1
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Ma Raia'l Originally by: n0thing Only correction to your above post, is that if your referring to sotryline, then Amarr are mostly armor tank and capacitor kings, DPS top always been mentioned for gallente as half of ships descriptions say stuff like 'close-up-and personall combat' or 'decimating enemies at close range'. Fair enough, but if we're the capacitor kings, the argument is still valid. Amarrian cap is extremely fragile. Not something I would expect from the 'kings' of cap. Yep, certainly agreed, not to mention that whole 'must fit nosfs' philosophy also gives Gallente hard time. Like was mentioned in other thread about it, nosfs just need some sort of balancing done so cap using races will be on par with non-cap using races when both cap drained. ---
Mogrin Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:45:00 - [24] The ships look pimp. Plus you can fit a abbadon to fire rainbows, what could be better than that?? _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Edited by: Akane Miyamoto on 27/05/2007 20:14:51 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types. WHAT? Oh man.. A T2 fitted pulse geddon broke my dominix' tank (And he did it very fast concidering all my resists were 75-80). Something a T2 neutron hyperion with maxed gunnery supports and gallente BS lv4 couldn't do. Yeah, not enough damage. I would be dead by now if he had fitted a cap injector what mod should he have droped in one of his 3 mids to put an injecotr on?
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Godar Marak on 27/05/2007 21:42:35 When other races die : Ops ganked by a whole bunch of people now Im dead. Fair enough. When amarrians die : Ops out of cap doesnt matter if my abaddon is attacked by a couple of cruisers with nos, I have no cap I cant activate any moduel. Now I have to sit there for 3 minutes while they eat through my hitpoints. Had I been minmatar or caldari my guns could have fired stil and killed them both, had I been gallente my drones could have killed them. The end. -------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:06:00 - [27] Amarr aren't bad, neccesarily. It's just that for every ship Amarr have (Bar, possibly, the Curse), one of the other three races has a ship that does the same, except invariably better. Also, pressing F1-F8 and hoping you have enough plates on to last is boring. Which doesnt help tbh. EVE-O Forums Rules summary: If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more then 15 seconds, I am to assume I'm not allowed to do it.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Edited by: Akane Miyamoto on 27/05/2007 20:14:51 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types. WHAT? Oh man.. A T2 fitted pulse geddon broke my dominix' tank (And he did it very fast concidering all my resists were 75-80). Something a T2 neutron hyperion with maxed gunnery supports and gallente BS lv4 couldn't do. Yeah, not enough damage. I would be dead by now if he had fitted a cap injector what mod should he have droped in one of his 3 mids to put an injecotr on? Sensor Booster I assume? Theres quite some BS setups that dont have room for it usually. ---
Misanth X-Fire	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 27/05/2007 17:10:47 The biggest problem I see with amarr is that their guns don't do enough damage to compensate for their only possibility to deal two damage types. Gallente has this problem too, but they got drones to compensate. I think amarr needs to have a bit more damage bonus for their las0rs. That would be enough. Wth are you talking about.. lasers do nice damage, at least on paper. Unless you're talking about EM/Thermal only being bad for PvE, I agree. The problem is it cost a crapload of cap just to shoot, less alone to tank, even worse if you take into account everyone and their mother uses nosses so we have neither tank nor dmg in PvP.. More damage is NOT what we need. Less cap use from lasers - yes. Nerf to nos - yes. Remove silly cap bonuses on ships - yes. --- bring back the pvp to EVE --- Remove: local, non-dictor bubbles, capital ships, re-move the hp boost and: put 'nos hardpoints' (0-1 on non-amarr, 1 on amarr, 3 arbitrator and 4 amarr recons)
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Sun Tzu's Art of Forum War He who whines most, gets intervention from the Devine powers. Complain greatly until your foe's ships crumble under the nerfbat of the Devine powers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Beer is my religion. Guinness is my God.

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