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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.31 12:24:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau So basically what you're saying, is that you will end up with balanced resists, and to truly tank you have to drop damage mods for a DCU?
Jeez, it's almost like they nerfed omni tanks and made lasers worthwhile or something....
The thing is though, if you're fitting a plated meathron tank you now have to sacrifice 4 lows to resists, then you have the choice of either fitting 2 plates and 1 mag stab which will result in you not having enough dps to kill them in time or you can fit 1 plate and 2 mag stabs which will result in you not having enough hp to survive long enough to kill them.
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Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
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Posted - 2007.05.31 12:38:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Originally by: Mysterlee
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Couldn't you simply use explo + kinetic + thermal energized instead of 2x EANM + DCU?
That would result in 60/50/64/64 resists on armour and no resists whatsoever on hull, thats a pretty big nerf. If we went with DCU and one of each passive hardener then we lose a mag stab or a plate depending on setups and still get lower resists than with dcu and 2 eanm.
So basically what you're saying, is that you will end up with balanced resists, and to truly tank you have to drop damage mods for a DCU?
Jeez, it's almost like they nerfed omni tanks and made lasers worthwhile or something....
Not quite. End up with around a 25% nerf of the resists and losing the whole 60% reists from hull.
Thats approx 13000 effective HP removed from a hyperion, with the hyps rep bonus the loss of 25% reists makes that 13000hp skyorcket up to easily 20k+ effective HP lost. Or about 8000 efective HP removed from a megathron.
That aint no laser buff but a kick in nads for nearly every armour tanking ship in the game. -----
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Sailon
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Posted - 2007.05.31 12:47:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Sailon on 31/05/2007 12:47:19 New signature for free (high quality paper)
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:01:00 -
[94]
There are still viable loadouts with DCUs for PVP and with or without DCUs for PVE (where the EANM thing will be less of an issue anyway). Sure, you lose some resists, mainly on the EM side, but it's not as drastic as some people say. Check page 3 where I posted some alternatives to 2x EANM + DCU. ______________ Join the Family |
n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:07:00 -
[95]
Edited by: n0thing on 31/05/2007 13:12:18 Edited by: n0thing on 31/05/2007 13:08:39
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 31/05/2007 10:23:51
Originally by: IntegralHellsing lol CCP.
2 X EANM T2 = 20 more CPU. currently with best skills, you can't fracking fit 2 EANM T2 unless you use -3% or -5% turret cpu implant.
...and I think that's EXACTLY the point of this nerf. 42%+ (at compensations lvl 4) passive omni tank for 2 slots, 60 cpu and 4 grid is overpowered.
With the EANM nerf, it might actually be worth tanking versus specific damage types, instead of relying on the holy omni tank of EANMs. Energized single resist platings give 45% resists at compensation lvl 4, which is more than 2 EANMs with compensations at lvl 5. Same fitting as now, two slightly better resists but two holes (one of which is most likely EM, there is your effective Amarr damage boost). Alternatively, you can sacrifice 20 cpu worth of gank, if you absolutely want those 2 EANMs.
Sounds like a fairer tradeoff for me than the current situation.
edit: Hi Zirator, btw ^^
You dont read, do you?
T2 hardener set wont ever fit on Ishtar for example due to CPU being around 100 less.
You cant even fit plate now with MWD/Med Rep/EANM/Explosive due to same issue.
Also, upping faction reqs may as well trash Ishtar even if you got funds for high end mods. Most of Ishtar setups leave you with 1-2 CPU, so I predict that thing gonna cost less then Sacrilege now.
Moreover, EANM used ,again, for same reason, theres no CPU on apporiate ships. You dont think Im gonna fit myself with 70/20/20/20 resists just to protect one damage type and think I can kill anything but indys.
But if you can fit me an Ishtar or Megat that would still have same resists, and no CPU issues, go ahead. When you try, Ishtar being a HAC should have at least 70% on lowest resist.
Your proposed tanking layouts mean that you never engaged anything with good damage. Even at 60% lowest resist you can find your tank outdamaged. And you say we should head with 50% resist as tank? Thats paper. If you engage 2 cruiser-sized damage dealers with BS, they will tear you apart before you nosf them down.
Overall:
Minmatar - not affected. Caldari - not affected. Amarr - slightly nerfed, now their ships also got to struggle with fitting. Gallente - both top end ships of the race now junk. nerfed, best candidate to take Amarr place in future.
---
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Dalanoria
The-Dark-Legion Ground Zeero
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:12:00 -
[96]
Well there goes fitting out a Pilgrim.....You already need Recon V to fit anything on it, now its faction or nothing...
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:13:00 -
[97]
Mate, I never even talked about fitting active hardeners in this thread. Energized single resist platings, T1 or T2 have the exact same fitting reqs as the corresponding EANMs have now, and will stay that way. ______________ Join the Family |
n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:17:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Mate, I never even talked about fitting active hardeners in this thread. Energized single resist platings, T1 or T2 have the exact same fitting reqs as the corresponding EANMs have now, and will stay that way.
I reckon I need to write it on one line:
You need a faction EANM and faction hardener to fit a Gallente HAC and still tank something. Even then you end with 1-2 CPU left, without plate.
Thus - 5 lows.
1x True Sansha Med Rep, 1x True Sansha EANM, 1x Best Named DCU, 1x True Sansha Explosive Hardener, 1x Nano/CPR/Anything fits.
With that you have maybe at most 3 CPU left if you have CPU reduction implants.
You propose:
1x Med Rep, 1x Explosive Hardener, 3x Membranes? That takes about 60 CPU more then you have. ---
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Minas Reul
Dark Horizons Red Horizon
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:18:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tanaka Nari Then 2 EANMs + DCU won't fit now, either.
Exactly - they don't. Not unless you use a named DC or turret cpu implant, or both.
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Valandril
Caldari Leela's Lamas
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Minas Reul
Originally by: Tanaka Nari Then 2 EANMs + DCU won't fit now, either.
Exactly - they don't. Not unless you use a named DC or turret cpu implant, or both.
Sad reality, if this is going to happend, after 2 months i'm not going to renew my account. Whats the point if i need implant to even fit my platerax :| --- I swear to god, ccp choose changes in game via lottery system. |
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:25:00 -
[101]
Edited by: n0thing on 31/05/2007 13:24:30
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan
So yes, you will lose some resistances, but (depending on your setup, check my examples on page 3) mainly on EM, because the fewest people bother to fit armor EM resistances specifically. If you want an omni tank, fit an EANM and a non-energized adaptive nano if you can't spare 20 cpu more than now, otherwise stick to single resist platings. If you want a plate setup with many EHPs but no sustainable repair amount, go for energized regeneratives for example.
Agh, you edited post so couldnt quote that.
As I can see, on page 3 the highest resist still being EM if you put em from up to down sequence. The lowest however is either Kinetic/Explosive.
Since at least in 70% of cases a target will deal explosive/kinetic damage either via drones/missles or ammo, with 41% on explosive you have on one of layouts you will die within...seconds? Not even best damage in the world will help you if you lost half of your armor on your way to target. And god helps you if hes not alone. ---
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:30:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 31/05/2007 13:34:16 Maybe your specific Ishtar setup will be broken (since it doesn't use dual EANMs from the start), but if you end up with 1-2 cpu left with nearly all faction/named non-T2 gear, your setup is as high-end as you can currently get. If anything at all is changed, it will stop working.
-edit- If you fit a faction EANM + a faction active hardener now, you could probably switch to faction EANM + faction energized single (or faction non-energized if necessary) and only lose some resistance on a single resist.
Many many setups, especially for T1 ships with lowish armor base resists, rely way too heavily on 2xEANM + DCU because they effectively exchange four active hardeners (ok, three since most people wouldn't fit an EM hardener) for 2 EANMs which are passive AND need way less cpu. And this is exactly what's hurting lasers, if they switched over to a balanced tank (as in, balanced end resists) they wouldn't lose that much resists except on EM and in some cases even save some precious cpu. ______________ Join the Family |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:36:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Dalanoria Well there goes fitting out a Pilgrim.....You already need Recon V to fit anything on it, now its faction or nothing...
Erm...no, not really. I definately have some issues with cpu when I try to fit it with recon 4, but with recon 5 I will have TONS of free CPU unless I try to fit something silly like a probe launcher.
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Valandril
Caldari Leela's Lamas
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:40:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Valandril on 31/05/2007 13:39:18
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 31/05/2007 13:34:16 Maybe your specific Ishtar setup will be broken (since it doesn't use dual EANMs from the start), but if you end up with 1-2 cpu left with nearly all faction/named non-T2 gear, your setup is as high-end as you can currently get. If anything at all is changed, it will stop working.
-edit- If you fit a faction EANM + a faction active hardener now, you could probably switch to faction EANM + faction energized single (or faction non-energized if necessary) and only lose some resistance on a single resist.
Many many setups, especially for T1 ships with lowish armor base resists, rely way too heavily on 2xEANM + DCU because they effectively exchange four active hardeners (ok, three since most people wouldn't fit an EM hardener) for 2 EANMs which are passive AND need way less cpu. And this is exactly what's hurting lasers, if they switched over to a balanced tank (as in, balanced end resists) they wouldn't lose that much resists except on EM and in some cases even save some precious cpu.
U really think that this thing is buffing amarr ? Gl fitting ur t2 setup ships --- I swear to god, ccp choose changes in game via lottery system. |
Cal Morg
Gallente Morpheus industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:50:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Here are just some fitting alternatives to 2xEANM + DCU (currently 90/5 fitting, soon 110/5), off the top of my head: - EANM + Adaptive Nano Plating + DCU (77/49/63/63) for 20/1 less than now (possibly "best" alternative in terms of EHP drop) - EANM + Adaptive Nano + Energized Reactive (73/64/57/57) for 20 cpu less if you need exp resists - 3x energized platings (Gabriel's choice) (60/52/65/65) for 1 more grid - EANM + 2 energized platings (69/61/51 and 72 as you see fit on Gallente ships) for 10/1 more - DCU + 2 energized platings (66/58/45 and 70 as you see fit) for same fitting as now
Nice comparison, but let us do this with a named DCU, not T2 (used Lvl 4 comp skills):
- 2x EANM II + DCU (77/5)->(97/5) = +20/0
79/53/66/66
- EANM II, ANP II, DCU (47/4)->(57/4) = -20/-1
77/48/63/63
- EANM II, ANP II, ERM II (60/4)->(70/4) = -7/-1
73/64/57/57
- 3x E_M II (90/6) = +13/+1
60/50/64/64
- EANM II, 2x E_M II (90/6)->(100/6) = +13/+1
69/60/50+71
- DCU, 2x E_M II (77/5) = 0/0
65/57/44+69
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:57:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Cal Morg
EANM II, ANP II, DCU (47/4)->(57/4) = -20/-1 77/48/63/63
Seems they have to nerf ANPs too. EM resists are still way too high with this, and you have even more CPU for damage, further tank/Nos.
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:04:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Mysterlee on 31/05/2007 14:03:52 I really don't see why they dont just reduce the EM resistance bonus on EANMs. They could even reduce it a bit further than I'd previously said.
On EANM II, leaving all bonuses and fitting reqs at their current TQ values but reducing the EM resistance bonus only to 7.5%, at lvl 4 armour comp skills you would end up with 70/53/66/66 resists with a DC II and 2 EANM II. Thats a flat 9% resistance decrease while still keeping EM the highest as it should be on armour. Then all you need to do is make lasers do 50% EM damage and 50% thermal and there you have your amarr fix.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:14:00 -
[108]
Ugh. My uber cookie-cutter geddon setup now will have SEVERE cpu issues (and lets say it has 7x dual heavies, injector, hvy nosf, rep, 2x plates and 60% resists overall).
Till now i had 0.00 cpu spare, now it will turn into -20 :S Guess ill have to drop one plate and put something else there...
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RuSBO
Amarr Solar Dragons Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:20:00 -
[109]
OMG, Amarrian ships, with low CPU capacity , cant normally fitting now, and if EANM cpu cost will be increased, amarrians will finally died. __________________
NPC Hunter.
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:27:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 31/05/2007 14:34:00
Originally by: Cal Morg Nice comparison, but let us do this with a named DCU, not T2 (used Lvl 4 comp skills): ...
Cool, it looks way better as well .
By the way, I just flew a character to The Forge to check the market. I list the price and turnover of some T2 armor tank modules.
---price(in M), turnover(per day) Passive EANM:3.5, 500 Kin: 0.4, 50 Exp: 0.46, 60 EM:0.15, 25 Th:0.5, 65 Regen: 0.15, 15
Active EM:1.6, 50 Exp:3.6, 250 Kin:3.5, 250 Th:3.3, 250
Ok, some comments. In the passive category, EANMs are sold more often than all other energized platings together, even though they're almost ten times as expensive. EM and regenerative are sold the least, despite being really really cheap, probably barely above production price.
As far as active hardeners go, EM is half as expensive as the rest and is sold maybe 1/5th as much as the others.
Conclusions:
- Few people harden against EM specifically
- EANMs are by far the single most often bought passive armor tank module
- The fact that active hardeners are sold almost as much as EANMs probably comes from mission runners, since enemy damage type is known and cpu is not as much of an issue (no scram/mwd/injector/damper/ECM or other PVP module). Here active hardeners are better, since they give higher resists (and hence, the whole EANM nerf is pretty much moot for PVE anyway).
- Regenerative platings give a percentage increase to armor HP, but don't benefit from compensation skills. They might be an alternative to plates on grid limited fittings if energized adaptives weren't plain better for the same fitting cost AND additionally benefit from compensations. EANMs are better both in a sustainable and in a non-sustainable tank, so I'd propose to additionally buff regeneratives (for example via giving them a bonus from the compensation skills) to be better for non-sustainable tanks only while not being superior to plates.
Summarizing, I think it's fair to say that at least part of the laser problem is due to EANMs being too good compared to the other options, so some sort of nerf is alright to bring them back in line. ______________ Join the Family |
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Bural
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:30:00 -
[111]
I'am Amar, I'am a Amor Tanker and i must say EANM nerf is bull**** if you wanna boost amar change the weapondmg, more therm less em dmg and al is fine
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Sc0rpion
Minmatar MetaForge Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:35:00 -
[112]
Great...Now there will be even more nos domis, and they will have an even easier time killing me.
So far, this breaks: Armageddeon Apocolypse (Like it really needed to be further ruined) Pilgrim Retribution Harbinger (Need a -3% CPU implant now) Zealot
I can't wait to log onto Sisi and find out how many more Amarr ships this breaks. Thanks for the "help" CCP.
The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche
Killmails are for pooftas. |
EMTsNightmare
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 14:40:00 -
[113]
this is just wrong!!! on so many levels its not even worth talking about.
don't do this, it's that simple!
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Ragnor Dayton
Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:06:00 -
[114]
Originally by: n0thing
Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Mate, I never even talked about fitting active hardeners in this thread. Energized single resist platings, T1 or T2 have the exact same fitting reqs as the corresponding EANMs have now, and will stay that way.
I reckon I need to write it on one line:
You need a faction EANM and faction hardener to fit a Gallente HAC and still tank something. Even then you end with 1-2 CPU left, without plate.
Thus - 5 lows.
1x True Sansha Med Rep, 1x True Sansha EANM, 1x Best Named DCU, 1x True Sansha Explosive Hardener, 1x Nano/CPR/Anything fits.
With that you have maybe at most 3 CPU left if you have CPU reduction implants.
You propose:
1x Med Rep, 1x Explosive Hardener, 3x Membranes? That takes about 60 CPU more then you have.
Use a faction adaptive instead of a a faction energized adaptive then.......... they don't require cpu at all. base 17.5% vs 22.5% but still OK. ------------------------------------------------ Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! |
Cal Morg
Gallente Morpheus industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:23:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Mysterlee I really don't see why they dont just reduce the EM resistance bonus on EANMs.
Because there exist ships like the Damnation: (60/80/62.5/35) base. Put in a Thermic Hardener and 2 EANM II and you get (81/90/83/85). What would happen, if they change the EANM the way you suggest?
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:32:00 -
[116]
I think it would work to lower the EM res bonus on the EANM, but it would feel quite heavy handed to make it asymmetric.
Raising fitting cost is one way of doing it, and although I initially favored lowering the bonus across the board, this would either gimp EANMs completely because single energized platings would always be better, or only slightly change the status quo in so far that armor tanks generally tank less (without affecting the relative strength of lasers). Raised fitting reqs at least causes dedicated tanks to make other sacrifices or alternatively switch to single resist modules (which ungimps lasers). ______________ Join the Family |
n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:40:00 -
[117]
Edited by: n0thing on 31/05/2007 15:45:00 Thats just looks like a plain Minmatar boost, since apart from Amarr T2 all ships now have giant explosive resistance hole.
As for Ishtar setup, EANM is a must, same as active explosive hardener. Without plate you have at most 2300ish armor i think. Meaning, with 48% explosive resist and 300-350 dps from average pvp same size opponent will break your ship in around....6 secs?
Imo, the whole EANM thing can be compared to a car stuck on a road, instead of calling evacuator, you will go find a big stick and smash the thing to pieces.
Dont touch EANM, nerfing while trying to boost will get you nowhere. Sure, typing new CPU value is alot easier, but it will cost alot more in terms of other stuff.
Best thing would be:
- EANM CPU back to normal. - Start dealing with Amarr capacitor/grid.
Grid and capacitor are most certain Amarr problems atm, so they need to be fixed. Not make under-powered thing be good on even more nerfed one.
As a side idea, why not make EANM be really adaptive, but manually? Can go great with Heat thing.
You have 25% on EANM II to all resistances, but you can choose only 2 to activate. Wich means you cant have 4 damage types hardened from 2 EANM. You can have only Explosive + Thermal on 1st and EM + Kinetic on second.
Then, most of people will use Thermal + Kinetic and Kinetic + Explosive combos with 2 EANM, while leaving EM damage untouched! Yep, you wont bother with adapting EANMs to EM as its good enough anyways.
Now, to activate those 2 adapted damage types, you would need:
- 75% capacitor. - 10 secs like reload. - 30 secs of powerup.
Would prevent people to change em in fight.
As for Regular Adaptive, they still give less on T1 ships then, fine, T2 might not suffer as bad from that to have a standart Adaptive, but T1 will still have some difference. On BSes that makes alot in terms of damage absorbed.
---
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robeeX
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:42:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Mysterlee EANM II cpu usage has now been decreased to 36tf. Seriously CCP, just reduce it back to 30 and then lower the EM resistance bonus to 7.5%.
what he said ffs.
are you freaking crazy? ccp?! ty for "help"
CCP wont hijack my sig, DAAARE YOU!!!! i will kill your babycats!
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Mysterlee
Gallente 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:44:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Cal Morg
Originally by: Mysterlee I really don't see why they dont just reduce the EM resistance bonus on EANMs.
Because there exist ships like the Damnation: (60/80/62.5/35) base. Put in a Thermic Hardener and 2 EANM II and you get (81/90/83/85). What would happen, if they change the EANM the way you suggest?
They could always fit an EM resist rig to compensate.
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Tintifish
Roid Terminators
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:45:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Alski Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
This is would break all armor tanking assault frigates... pay attention Devs please, this has absoluteley no usefull purpose.
Exactly, my ishkur only has 155 CPU, how the feck am i meant to make a fitting? Empty high slot? No MWD? :S
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