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Stavros
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:35:00 -
[1]
Well tonight we had ourselves what we thought would be a big ole battle.
We had about 30 bships and fountain had about 40-50 somink like that. However the people aren't really relevant and this isnt a politcal post about the battle.
What irks me most is that the battle was completely unplayable. Certainly from our side and for many who have come forward from the opposite side.
Shots werent registering, people couldnt see anything and in general it was complete and utter crap. Not worth a days planning and not worth 12.99 a month of whatever.
I have come to the conlusion that any battle involving over say, 40 ships is just completely untenable. People wouldn't play CS or UT with a ping of 300, so why the hell do we pay to play this kinda junk.
Basically all u need to ensure the invulnerablity of anything, is to get 40 or so ships into a system and the lag gets so bad combat becomes a stupid affair of clicking and praying.
I am seriously down after that battle, not because we took horrendous losses or anything, but simply because it removes the last bastion of skilled play that exists in eve, that of fleet management and tactics.
I now wonder whether this can be fixed or whether or not eve will always be like this. This kinda fleet battle is the only kind of high level play in eve, and the game just is not up to it...
A very saddened,
Stavros
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Teelmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:41:00 -
[2]
Well, i was there as well tonight. I am fortunate to have a decent computer and a broadband connection; yet, i have come to same conclusion.
Anything above 40 people there is just too much lag. It takes over 30 seconds to activate/deactivate a module, to warp out, or to change targets. I sincerly hope it does get fixed as well; however, nothing has been done and we have had many gm's and other high end people in eve viewing these battles yet nothing has been done. It is ridiculous and really there is no point in large fleet battles.
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Mimiru
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:49:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Mimiru on 10/01/2004 23:50:05
I too was there, for the fountain side, and it was all screwed up.
a lot of you guys were shooting me and jamming me, so when i was at like 30% sheilds i warped out to recharge and come back in not jammed. stavros was still shooting me (i think it was him) when i was like 3 au away. I recharged and warped back in, and when i got back i could not see anything either, but i could hear shots being fired, was it the same for you when you guys warped in?
<Ap0k> "MIM: Like Gangrenous Body Parts without the amputation!" |
Damaclease
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:54:00 -
[4]
stav Cry me a river
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zincol
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:55:00 -
[5]
when the drones r released aaaaaaaaaaah!
Gm said if you get over 100 players in a local of a highway system that it get's stuck...
hmmmmmmmm... Fleet battles do cause alot of lagg and when the drones r released ive seen sum v.bad lagg and very un-playable so i agree.
w00t!
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scouting
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:56:00 -
[6]
you never complained when you set up lag traps...stavy boy
lag was your friend.
if ccp could fix this, every online game developer would be begging to know how
---------------------------------------
Last nights patch, was, without doubt, the worst ever. Rest assured that I was on the forum within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world. |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sally on 10/01/2004 23:59:07
Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't attack the 40 NVA guys in EC-P8R then:
Sally > okay guys. here is the deal: u pay me 111 million isk and i leave u in peace.
Athule Snanm > ok, i'll drop it in a can at the gate to torrinos if you want to pick it up
Sally > okay. so you surrender.
Athule Snanm > er, of course :-)
Sally > hmm, was a bit too easy.
KIAInkZ > we are ejecting from our ships now and sending you the sum of 500,000,000,000,000
Sally > i think this battle will be a lag fest.
KIAInkZ > just let our pods go plz
--
Stories: #1
--
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Slam
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Slam on 10/01/2004 23:59:59
I agree completely.
In the battle jan 8, where curse kicked our butts I couldn activate any of jammers and 3 of my launchers.
One of my corps mates simply disced and had no chance to take part in the battle before blowing up.
This is not to make any excuses - conditions were the same for all, but I must say smaller engagements seems to be the best choice atm.
I think a great deal of the problem is client side. It would be neat if you could turn down the graphics for these occations.
But nothing we write here is really new is it? I seem to remember this being a problem since...the early Stain battles.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:58:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Stavros on 11/01/2004 00:02:45
Lag is fixed plain and simple and I am not complaining, I wouldve done exactly the same as fountain.
Fact of the matter is though it was scrwed up for both sides, nobody could really play very well and there was no intentional lag trap.
Still according to the devs u can't even DO lag traps anymore.
Blah I CBA flaming, im too p/o, we lost the battle 3 bships kills vs none. Not really complaining about that, we attacked and were outnumbered anyway.
It just seems that whenever I manage to convince myself a fleet battle is a good idea, its just plain laggy ****e whether we win or not, thats all my point is I guess...
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.01.10 23:59:00 -
[10]
Fleet battles were the reason i joined EvE, but i have realized long time ago that this might be something to stop holding my hope for... God i hope this server never hit the 10k, cuz battles are going to get huge then... Can't fight without meeting 50+ ppl.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
SithEwok
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:00:00 -
[11]
 Quote:
stav Cry me a river
dude... he aint cryin, thats uncalled for.
Yes unplayable it was, and not worth my time of waiting 7hours for an attack.
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:02:00 -
[12]
We had a great battle last night with FA wich involved about 45 peaple total and lag was "minumum" compared tonights horror.
When warping in the first time it took about 15 sec to load up and 30 sec or so to activate a module, also when my shields were about to drop it took about 40-50 sec just to warp out and I had to choose warp several time before it actually responded.
The fight was unplayable since when warping the seccond time I saw nothing at all, just the gate and still there were 60-70 ships there, yet I was there for over a minute to wait for the ships to load up yet nothing happaned and couldnt fight at all.
In short, UNPLAYABLE.
But respect to FA to get the force they had and then stand their ground against our assault.
Spawn of the Devil
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Kraktor
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kraktor on 11/01/2004 09:59:49
Yes it could have been the mother of all battles. When m0o and their friends warped in the hair really stod up on my arms, and my heart started pounding. But it was all in vain. Lag simply destroyed everything, and m0o and friends had no other choice than to warp away.
Some work has to be done before large battles can be fought.
A really sad evening and a lot of planning wasted........
And my hat is off for m0o and friends for showing up with a pair....
/Kraktor Assault wing, Free Imperial Vikings, FA
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Slagg
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:04:00 -
[14]
No Stavros, they can't support it. They can for instance threaten Skillz with a permanent ban for talking smack in the forums but the real reason is that EV is filled with admin seconds.
So dear Stav. I'll see you in World of Warcraft open beta.
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:05:00 -
[15]
Quote:
stav Cry me a river
Grow up please.
Spawn of the Devil
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SithEwok
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:07:00 -
[16]
hmm wow sounds nice :))
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Noobious
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:10:00 -
[17]
Im loseing faith in the game fast, the lag was so bad I couldnt even see an enemy to shoot
Grats to FA and the Joint m0o/c0w/arcane fleet had the makings to be an awesome fight shame it couldnt come off that way.
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:15:00 -
[18]
Im just gutted to be honest.
This is what the game promotes and encourages and it cannot deliver. Alot of us didnt even have our screens load. whoever warped out and attempted to come back to the fight could not as their screen wouldnt load, modules were taking a LONG time to activate, some didnt even come on at all.
PVP is the only reason i play eve now nothing else in the game even remotly interests me anymore. and it cannot provide it to me in that scale.
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Mon Mothma
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:18:00 -
[19]
welcome to the technical difficulties of online games.
nubs
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Slagg
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:23:00 -
[20]
My dear, people leave this game out of boredom. Only thing that is fun and not repetitave is player versus player. If CCP thinks that pvp is not instrumental to game experience, they can lose 13,000 more players.
Have a cookie.
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Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:24:00 -
[21]
I always find it amusing when gate campers complain about lag.
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Slagg
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:29:00 -
[22]
It's propably a GM second or why not a regular petition whiner. You know that it's not 'griefers' that make people leave, it's carebear idiots and their administrator seconds that are soooooooooooooooo impartial that makes people leave.
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Noobious
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:34:00 -
[23]
Well to silance the idiots flaming already, I was in the Huge battle in HLW (pre castor)where there was at one point 110 people in local and the lag wasnt as bad as this was.
Please dont flame here people, its just a game and im seeing tarded people post with alts, its a serious OOC thread keep it that way.
Many Thanks
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:34:00 -
[24]
Stav summed it up nicely. Sounds like I missed a lot of waiting around and then bitter disappointment due to lag.
What EVE needs is the ability of fleet battles, small frigates and cruisers harassing opponent battleships while their battleships dish out damage. Anti-frigate frigates against the harassers etc.
Without lag fleet battles could become mindblowing spectacles of tactics, skills and preparations.
With the lag all we can do is engage in 10 vs 10 at most
I favour the tactical, TFC was my game of choice many moons ago. Without fleet battles EVE becomes a pure economic game with uninteresting small skirmishes. I'm not saying that the economic side is worthless, it just needs the huge force that alliances and their fleets provide.
¼©¼
a history |
Stavros
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:42:00 -
[25]
For all the nice people who are flaming, I will soon post a fraps that shows exactly the kinda **** we had to put up with.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Kurvitsa
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kurvitsa on 11/01/2004 00:45:26
Yeah, Sally and I will quit. Permanently. And then you stupid carebears can go an sell 10 million trit for 250k ISK. We need to have goal in this game. I already have all battleships and 400 million.
What should I do now then.
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:48:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Yeah, Sally and I will quit. Permanently. And then you stupid carebears can go an sell 10 million trit for 250k ISK. We need to have goal in this game. I already have all battleships and 400 million.
What should I do now then.
Support me. I am a poor ***** caught in a system with 45 enemies. Give me some money and I'll make a suicide run :-).
--
Stories: #1
--
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:52:00 -
[28]
not to mention all the bugs there are with gangs. we've been occupied all day with it..
-------------------------------------------
Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Jacob Molari
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Posted - 2004.01.11 00:58:00 -
[29]
CCP is using a oodles of cheap Windows based servers.
That's why the lag.
Wintel platforms are only good for logging on to real system... (Unix, Z, P, etc..)
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Cael
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Posted - 2004.01.11 01:02:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Cael on 11/01/2004 01:08:20
Quote:
Basically all u need to ensure the invulnerablity of anything, is to get 40 or so ships into a system and the lag gets so bad combat becomes a stupid affair of clicking and praying.
Let me explain the basics of PvP in Anarchy-Online.
#1- Attack a base
#2- Guild that is attacked gets the warning and has 70 people go to that base
#3- Zone crashes
#4- Everyone logs back, in the main city going: "Let's go crash <4 holes> again WO0T!!!"
SO yet again, Same ol' **** different game. MMORPG's are getting closely related to politics, they promise and never deliver.
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:02:00 -
[31]
i think i read somewhere that the netcode has a kind of correcting system so that a 360ms ping can play with a 20ms ping etc, whereby it balances things out.
for this to work all the clients have to send packets to each other and inturn re-exhange packets peer 2 peer and server.
so a 56k modem some jockey running a 550mhz 32mb graphics card a boradband user and some dude with a top notch setup, all have to shake hands and i think this is where the lag lies. i live about 10 miles from lynx in london, so in thory i should'nt lag against a player in USA, But i cant use my ping as a advantage or i might lock him quicker etc. So this is why this systems in place and it screws up the game..
solution all move to england. and buy a decent spec PC :P
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Xelios
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:03:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Xelios on 11/01/2004 02:05:28
Maybe CCP should ask Sony how they do it, you get some huge battles in Planetside with little or no lag at all.
As for regulating pings to balance advantages, that's bs. If you have a high ping or a crappy comp then you get disadvantaged, that simple. It shouldn't punish everyone else in the battle with crappy pings just because a couple guys are playing on **** connections.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:12:00 -
[33]
Quote:
Edited by: Kurvitsa on 11/01/2004 00:45:26
Yeah, Sally and I will quit. Permanently. And then you stupid carebears can go an sell 10 million trit for 250k ISK. We need to have goal in this game. I already have all battleships and 400 million.
What should I do now then.
Give them all to me, hehe.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:17:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Stav summed it up nicely. Sounds like I missed a lot of waiting around and then bitter disappointment due to lag.
What EVE needs is the ability of fleet battles, small frigates and cruisers harassing opponent battleships while their battleships dish out damage. Anti-frigate frigates against the harassers etc.
Without lag fleet battles could become mindblowing spectacles of tactics, skills and preparations.
With the lag all we can do is engage in 10 vs 10 at most
I favour the tactical, TFC was my game of choice many moons ago. Without fleet battles EVE becomes a pure economic game with uninteresting small skirmishes. I'm not saying that the economic side is worthless, it just needs the huge force that alliances and their fleets provide.
It's hard to do it with the kind of information levels has to process for each player in a game like EVE.
What's happening is simply we're hitting the boundaries of our own technological limitations---the internet infrastructure and server technology.
If you like fleet battles, go to darkspace.org.
I remember my own fleet battles in Allegiance, when there was as much as 64 people in one game. Suffice to say, I got frequent disconnections.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:36:00 -
[35]
"We had a great battle last night with FA wich involved about 45 peaple total and lag was "minumum" compared tonights horror."
... Don't the server nodes cover few systems each, quite possibly systems not close to one another location-wise?
Maybe you guys were trying to have battle in system which happens to be held by the same node that covers Yulai or something equally busy... would explain performance difference. o.o;
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:38:00 -
[36]
Quote:
About the New Servers
EVE ONLINE will be hosted on brand new, state-of-the-art servers. These servers will enable CCP to host up to 100,000 gamers in the same world.
You would belive that does brand new, state-of-the-art servers would actully make the game lag free.
Quote:
Combat
Combat in EVE is incredibly fast and furious and will have you constantly strategizing about what measures you should take to best deal with each situation. Group tactics involve formation flight and squad-based communication, allowing for massive fleet battles with military standard hierarchies.
What can i say? ALL LIES!!!!
"We brake for nobody"
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.01.11 02:56:00 -
[37]
Quote:
not to mention all the bugs there are with gangs. we've been occupied all day with it..
yep it gets old ganging up 30 people.. you get to 31 OMG i got the session change bug... sigh... gang 30 people again... etc etc
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Saladin
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Posted - 2004.01.11 03:28:00 -
[38]
While I wasn't at the fight in question, I have been in a lot of fleet battles and faced great difficulty with the lag.
In the pre-castor HLW fight Noobius referred to, I warped into the fight and my fps slowed down to like 0.1. The screen was frozen most of the time and I warped in and out 3 times until I found it to be playable. The devs said that the problem is client side, so I have spent the past month looking at what to change in computer and various benchmark tests. I was going to go ahead with the upgrade next week, but some people I spoke to had system configurations very close to what I was planning (3 GHz processor, ATI Radeon 9800XT, 1GB RAM) and they said they have the same problem. So right now I'm not sure what I am going to do.
There is something else that really bugs me about the big battles. Pre-Castor, the threat window stopped working correctly in the big battles. It would come up, but come up empty. My hope was that the Auto-Scanner (post castor) wouldn't have the same problem, but it does. With all the lag you experience, it becomes imperative to be able to quickly select your targets, lock on and fire. So now you have to mouse over the ships, wait for the name to come up and then lock.
But lets think together how CCP can track down what causes this problem and solve it. How can the devs test this issue to collect data? Chaos is out of the question since its a small server and can't support the number of players required. Beef up chaos? that's a possibility. The other alternative I can think of is have the devs or GMs be on the look out for large blobs in known hotspots, they can hang in local and collect data while the fight rages. Don't know if they would be willing to wait hours until people fight though. Guess it depends on how badly they want to collect data and fix the problem
---------------------------
(c) Copyright Saladin, 2005.
Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003. |
Stavros
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Posted - 2004.01.11 03:36:00 -
[39]
http://acdev.org/moo/
Video there, sorry for crappy quality but necessary. Anyway yeah that gate that Stained so well demonstrates, should have 70 bships at it, notice how it is totally empty, both times he is there.
Lag yes, not being able to see your targets, no.
Stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.01.11 03:54:00 -
[40]
me thinks that the EVE graphic is serverside! 
"We brake for nobody"
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Stained
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Posted - 2004.01.11 04:36:00 -
[41]
That's why EVERYONE that warped out, then warped back in could not see any ships/ was unable to lock them.
___________________________________________________________________
Hair is Over-rated.
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KrapYl
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Posted - 2004.01.11 04:50:00 -
[42]
Edited by: KrapYl on 11/01/2004 04:52:45
Quote:
I find it amusing when braindead people like you are still allowed to post here
may i ask if u ever been banned for some serden posts on these very boards ? i believe u where ? maybe im remember wrong... and anyways... sorry... i stink from time to time... 
As for the lag, well, i'd expect lag of the laggy kind when 50+ gathered... its sad, and at some point i hope they find some way to get it fixed...
And planetside ??? sometimes i get FF penalty for driving over a teammate who i never saw... on a empty road, on an island with no wars... WTF... Anarchy-online was also mentioned... they now have "Crow Control"... NOT CCP... but a module they call Crow Control... wich dont let more than 30 of each faction/side be at one "shard"
a "shard" could be directly translated to an EVE Grid... so imagine noone could aproach a gate if 30 of ur own people allready was there... u would hit an invisible wall... not untill there was 29, could any one from ur side approach/enter the grid... some goes for oppesite side...
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Booky
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Posted - 2004.01.11 04:55:00 -
[43]
Heh, your screen was removed. Got it hosted anywhere else?
Spelling corrections welcome, but don't expect me to edit my post. |
Melchidael
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Posted - 2004.01.11 05:13:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Melchidael on 11/01/2004 05:15:02
I'm not sure if this is an issue which can be solved without a rethink of some of the fundamental design decisions in eve.
IIRC, there was a post on the dev blog (btw, the dev blog archives need to be fixed) which detailed the setup of the TQ cluster: a large number of application (SOL) servers, and 2x DB backend servers. The SOL servers would do all of the calculations (e.g. did this shot hit, locations of player ships and equipment, etc) and take in the player inputs (activate this module, target this person, etc).
While this is great in terms of eliminating cheats and reducing bandwidth per player, the simple fact is that there is going to be an upper limit on the number of calculations involving a large number of objects (remember, in any battle, the SOL has to keep track of all the objects in that battle and everything they're doing) that any given server can do.
It can't necessarily be solved by having multiple SOLs involved in a battle, b/c then you get into issues of synchronization between them. If the SOL (or if there are multiple SOLs) has to write to the backend DB on top of all this, then that basically adds another layer of complexity to the situation (and potentially, another bottleneck).
Then again, I could be wrong. 
Edit: paragraphs
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Dyvim Slorm
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Posted - 2004.01.11 05:18:00 -
[45]
Stav's dead right on this one.
I was one system ahead checking incoming and the lag was getting bad even there.
Not to mention the gang and channel bugs, it's pretty amazing any battle took place at all.
Well done to everyone for sticking at it, a most enjoyable night in spite of the bugs.
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2004.01.11 07:59:00 -
[46]
Well some of the problem might be solved if the client just wouldn't load the ship 3D textured models after a certian number of ships in the grid is reached.
The game playability is inversely proportionate to the number of ships present, that is for sure. 40 ships in a grid and you got an ultra laggy, unweildly game in front of you.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.01.11 11:25:00 -
[47]
I was in the NVA vs FE "battle". If the server isnt able to handle big fleet battles, the game isnt worth to play it. 30k players have worked for months to be able to maintain this fleets. Now the only thing they can do is go on and make more ISK and get more bored.
CCP, i think it is time to explain...at least CCP should have a plan to fix this in the next weeks, because all pvp-players will get really disapointd from this sad news.
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KIATolon
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Posted - 2004.01.11 12:50:00 -
[48]
Edited by: KIATolon on 11/01/2004 12:53:05
idd Lifewire, it was really laggy. It took a long time to switch modules on/off etc. The Autoscanner would just not work at all so picking targets was hard. I ended up getting a pounding by shad who I couldnt target back through a wall of drones & other players so I had to warp out & back in again.
My pc is crap though so I cant really complain. 1.4ghz with a GF4 Ti4600. People with good PC's who I've talked too experienced a lot less lag. I really think its mostly clientside lag I was experiencing.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:03:00 -
[49]
What's worse is, having a broadband connection means crap all when the servers are optimized for 56k connections.
That's why it's so laggy.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:11:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 11/01/2004 13:16:26
turning off logging helps, btw. logging combat for some reason, creates ungodly amounts of lag, for me atleast.
optimized for 56k? is that why using a scanner takes 10 years? heh
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
LukAsh
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:29:00 -
[51]
Moo why don't you ask about fleet battles at the next CSM meeting?
___
WTB: +5 Implants. |
Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:36:00 -
[52]
cuz it will be the usual "soon"(TM)
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Seiun Darel
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:39:00 -
[53]
LMAO, Stavros you encounter lag with 50 players in the same system? omg what are you at, 56k? ISDN? hahah i've been with combat +80 ships a few MONTHS ago without any lag what so ever.
<<-- CGI Art -->>
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LukAsh
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:44:00 -
[54]
Quote:
cuz it will be the usual "soon"(TM)
Then push them a bit to say more. This is in fact one of the most important issues now (even tech 2 isn't so important). What do we need player owned stations if we can't attack or defend them with fleets of 20+ ships?
___
WTB: +5 Implants. |
Dukath
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:50:00 -
[55]
Nothing new though. This problem has existed (and been reported) as long as i can remember, being early beta. It has improved a bit, from complete unplayable at 25 ships to completely unplayable at 40+ ships but it really needs more improvement.
I'm still waiting for an option to disable all graphical effects. So no loading of shipmodels, no weapon effects, all you'd see are the icons of the ships and missiles. If that doesn't remove the client side lag then nothing will.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.01.11 13:59:00 -
[56]
Quote:
LMAO, Stavros you encounter lag with 50 players in the same system? omg what are you at, 56k? ISDN? hahah i've been with combat +80 ships a few MONTHS ago without any lag what so ever.
¼©¼
a history |
Miss Take
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Posted - 2004.01.11 14:02:00 -
[57]
Quote:
LMAO, Stavros you encounter lag with 50 players in the same system? omg what are you at, 56k? ISDN? hahah i've been with combat +80 ships a few MONTHS ago without any lag what so ever.
What a stupid reply, how is this in any way a constructive comment which adds to the topic?
Agree that this will have serious implications to the future of pvp where fleet battles become more prominant.
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Sparta
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Posted - 2004.01.11 14:53:00 -
[58]
I must add my agreement; the server could not handle this fleet battle. As a defender I had no problem targeting and hitting my mods. After about 3 minutes into the battle I had been targeted and had hvy shield damage. I warped to a planet and recharged shields, after the return warp all I saw was the gate and another defender who was returning from shield recharge. But the battle was there and all around me, with "something scambles something" messages. I felt dishearted too (got a cable modem, 1gig of RAM, a high end video card, and a fast machine). It was all ccp.
So sad, so sad. Is ccp at the top of the tech thru put here? If so true fleet battles are not possible in EVE; and we have to wait until someone else brings a fleet game out.
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Estios
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Posted - 2004.01.11 15:16:00 -
[59]
'Something is trying to target jam Something'
How many of you got that little beauty ? Its crazy. You jump in and land in deadspace and then warp to the gate you want to attack only to drop out of warp and not be able to see any ships.
Ive had this FAR more since Castor than anytime before and have only found it can be fixed by logging.
Fleet battles are indeed the pinnacle of combat, alas EVE simply cannot support them at all currently
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Art Dillinja
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Posted - 2004.01.11 15:30:00 -
[60]
Quote:
'Something is trying to target jam Something'
One of my favorites. 
Huge fleet battles are more like gambling than anything else. The level of lag ensures that not the most skilled general wins the day, but the side that can gamble the longest, in other words: replace its losses.
It seems that inter - alliance warfare strategies have to be changed to small skirmishes only to avoid lag.
This is taking away one of the most interesting aspects of the whole game.
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Pyrotesea
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Posted - 2004.01.11 15:39:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Pyrotesea on 11/01/2004 15:40:28
I was there aswell.
I was one of the lucky ones that could see people after I warped in and I could target and fire (30 sec delay on activating mods). how ever I did experence a lot of goofed up crap.
For example I was one of the people that could still shoot Mimiru even after she was 2 au's away b4 I lost the lock.
I think something that would help out a lot is a simple GFX option in eve to not show ship/drones/missile geometry and just see the overlays. Most the time I am playing I am zoomed way out to keep an eye on everything and I use the auto scanner to target so I never see the ship but its still being rendered.
At the very least I think CCP should look into adding LOD's AFAIK there is none atm.
Still haveing fun but I really wish this can get fixed.
My 2 isk
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What doesn't kill you makes you injured.
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IZON
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Posted - 2004.01.11 15:55:00 -
[62]
Quote:
CCP, i think it is time to explain...at least CCP should have a plan to fix this in the next weeks, because all pvp-players will get really disapointd from this sad news.
I agree, anyone seen the Titanic?
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.01.11 16:42:00 -
[63]
Quote:
LMAO, Stavros you encounter lag with 50 players in the same system? omg what are you at, 56k? ISDN? hahah i've been with combat +80 ships a few MONTHS ago without any lag what so ever.
Few months ago is not like after Castor patch.
We had I recall just under 80 peaple in local a the time of the fight.
We all have very good PC¦s and internet connections and we all laged so much that we saw nothing at all, and that includes peaple from both forces that warped out and back in.
Dont be posting if you have no clue about what is being discussed.
Spawn of the Devil
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.01.11 16:50:00 -
[64]
Quote:
LMAO, Stavros you encounter lag with 50 players in the same system? omg what are you at, 56k? ISDN? hahah i've been with combat +80 ships a few MONTHS ago without any lag what so ever.
Have a Cookie.. Moron
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Noobious
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Posted - 2004.01.11 17:07:00 -
[65]
Dude dont flame, just ignore the retards. Some people have posted constructivly form all sides of the game which is cool
But seriously something needs to be done badly this the game is gonna get more and more fleet battles, the Devs need to find a way to reduce the lag.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.01.11 17:13:00 -
[66]
Do we know what causes the lag?
Is it network lag?
If so, what, exactly, is it about having 40 ships together creates the network lag. Local channel? Drones? Missiles? Target synch?
Is it video lag?
Do Drones/missiles still create an awful lot of lag?
Do we really need to see the 3D models? Leaving ships as icons only would be handy.
Can we have an option to do CTRL + Tab but leave the important GUI's open like gang window, scanner, and drones etc?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ris Dnalor
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Posted - 2004.01.11 17:52:00 -
[67]
Let's ponder this.
We know that server nodes at ccp will cease to function properly if too large a number of players enter the same system.
We also know from experience at playing games that graphics cards have an upper limit after which FPS begins to slow when 'too many' items need to be rendered on the screen.
We know from playing online games that if the objects being rendedered are anything other than stationary items, then data must be transmitted to your computer that can be translated to actions... movement, firing, target locking, shield reinforcement.. basically anyone one 'does' that causes an effect that is visible by another player.
The lockups & freezes are potentially stemming from a 3-fold problem.
1. Too many players are connecting to the same node, causing the server to exceed it's processing ability.
2. Each internet connection is going to have a limit. Perhaps many peoples' connections are being pushed to hard by the incoming data streams when more than 40 players enter combat together. Maybe it's just too much data, or perhaps it is an issue with the format in which the data is being transmitted.
3. The high-end graphics are very beautiful, there is no doubt, but since there is no toggle, we as consumers have no way to lighten the workload on our graphics cards, if we feel the need. Pretty grahpics are not only unneccessary during combat, but I consider them a distraction. A wireframe would suffice. Something that would let us know the relative size, location, velocities, & intentions of other entities in space would be more than sufficient... it would be mroe efficient.
I'm certain CCP has considered these issues, & if they have any information or even opinions on the matter, I'd love to read them.
thanx,
Ris Dnalor
tralalalalalala
--
Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
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IZON
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Posted - 2004.01.11 20:37:00 -
[68]
'bout time the devs spoke up. - PAPA Smurf?
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2004.01.11 22:14:00 -
[69]
If they can ***** this - then the game will be an asome hit as fleet battles is what its all about!!
What is the tested max number of pvp has any one done this? - I assume that 80 is the new limit?
can we organise a test on chaos? - or is this not up to spec for so many people?
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Teelmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.11 22:56:00 -
[70]
Once you get to around 40+, the game just can't handle it. And i for one can say its not my computer or my connection because both are on the high end of the spectrum in terms of overall computer and connection wise. The problem is server wise and it has existed for a long time and its about time its gotten fixed.
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2004.01.12 00:43:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Nirvy on 12/01/2004 00:56:27
Eve CANNOT handle large Groups sadly :(
Pic of Curse Patrol Group
The Above pic is a patrol group flying around curse, ever time we reach a gate people would get 2 mins of lag, people CTDing, and we only had 35~ people in the group :( Half the time i warped to the gate i saw no other ships at the gate at all, despite the scanner showing 35+ ships near me 
Jumping systems lagged to hell and took us 10 mins to move systems :(
Most of the allainces have to deal with this terrible lag daily IT NEEDS TO CHANGE
Mercenary | The Azath |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.12 12:30:00 -
[72]
Yes, I am sure we all love the good looks of eve, but sadly a lot of other MMOG's hit these problems before and have tried different ways to deal with them.
DAoC (for example) has various options to allow you to turn off all effects like spell effects, big bangs like missiles booms, etc. Turn off the textures of other characters in partial or total. Have a clipping range inside which you can specify if you would like the textures to only occur inside X. Etc, etc, etc.
It does slightly surprise me that we get bigger and better graphical effects, and no way to turn them off.
Granted this doesn't get behind the issues of the server managing the data, which your client is just repainting after all.
One of my questions is the code responsible for lots of these calculations. Its it the Phython scripting they use all over the place, or real-solid compiled code? Scripting is amazingly flexible, but has these issues of requiring an interpreter, and that interpretter to do the work, etc, and return results to whatever. I just hope that things like this are solid-compiled native code.
Didn't they recently add the effects of Drones firing at their targets? Has perhaps this new addition of displaying the drones firing at their targets caused more grief then the pretty picture lines it created?
Personally, I would love to see some way to turn down, or off most of the effects in game. I would recommend the guys go and play DAoC and see what the situation there is like. Its pretty regular to have 100+ against 100+ in instances of raids against relic forts. Granted, they don't have as many pets as we could count drones to be, but still...
To me its the game play. I can admire the graphics any time, but if that gets in the way of good solid enjoyable gameplay, I would rather turn off the effects for those fights and enjoy the fight.
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Adliger Krieger
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Posted - 2004.01.12 16:57:00 -
[73]
Ironic isn't it? CCP basically forces us to jpin large corps, encourages "mixed fleet" battles consisting of BS's, Cruisers, and Frigs, and only to find out they do not have the hardware or precision coding to support fleet battles!!!
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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.01.12 17:22:00 -
[74]
How about this---BEFORE THE BATTLE, TELL EVERYONE TO NOT USE DRONES!
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.12 17:39:00 -
[75]
"At the very least I think CCP should look into adding LOD's AFAIK there is none atm."
... There's the most simple LOD switch implemented as far as i can tell... the turrets and then ships themselves are disabled if you zoom out far enough. (most easy to notice when you approach gate and large Concord ships appear out of thin air as you get closer to their + icons)
No idea why it takes so long to load stuff, and why there's so heavy lag, to be honest. Maybe has something to do with the interface layer being pretty sluggish on its own, and the capped connection bandwidth...
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Lockheed
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Posted - 2004.01.12 17:55:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Lockheed on 12/01/2004 17:57:13
Quote:
How about this---BEFORE THE BATTLE, TELL EVERYONE TO NOT USE DRONES!
um, drones are out to help fight. sure we may lose them, who cares.
miners who chose the profession of a MINER have not built up 5mill skill points ALL DEDICATED TO PVP. You bring 40 hard nosed pvpers into a large carebear fleet you think they gonna let you go toe to toe??!!!
________________
On a pale horse. |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.12 18:13:00 -
[77]
very serious issue.
mixed fleet combat will require huge improvements on this front.
the first player owned structures are promised for january (), but defending them might easily press the node to its limits.
fast solutions and continues work are needed while occasional cheers ("we fixed the drone lag") are of little help.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.01.12 18:31:00 -
[78]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 12/01/2004 18:35:18
Quote:
mixed fleet combat will require huge improvements on this front.
I don¦t think so.
I assume that a frigate actually is less load for the server than a battleship. I think that less slots and generally lower stats on ships reduce the load on server which means that fleets made of 50% frigs, 40% cruisers and 10% battleships will be better for serverload than 100% battleships as there simply are less slots/modules/drones to process.
Would be yet another reason to fix the balancing of shipclasses
I remember back in beta when we had this huge hunt with 70+ people in the system. It was kind of choppy but it worked... but then again there were no battleships. All of the people were in frigs/cruisers.
Another thing which is responsible for the heavy FPS lag you get is the interface. Actually it gobbles so many frames it¦s just crazy. Turn it off and the game runs a whole lot better at least on my machine.
There should be an option to switch the interface into a 2D mode. The 3D-interface looks beautiful but it¦s a waste of polygons IMHO. You should at least be able to switch into a 2D-mode to get more frames there.
Then again there are still many improvements necessary on the current interface. Loading of pics, scrolling, the icons... all of this eats too many frames and it freezes the game which is just pathetic IMO.
As for this fight IMHO you guys just happened to play on an overloaded node. Perhaps you should venture out into Jovian space for the next one
Anyways... it¦s time for a statement CCP. You expect players to tolerate this kind of stuff for long? I don¦t...
Mai's Idealog |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.12 19:21:00 -
[79]
Edited by: McWatt on 12/01/2004 19:22:35
Quote:
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 12/01/2004 18:35:18
Quote:
mixed fleet combat will require huge improvements on this front.
I don¦t think so.
I assume that a frigate actually is less load for the server than a battleship. I think that less slots and generally lower stats on ships reduce the load on server which means that fleets made of 50% frigs, 40% cruisers and 10% battleships will be better for serverload than 100% battleships as there simply are less slots/modules/drones to process.
Would be yet another reason to fix the balancing of shipclasses
you expect 1 to 1 exchange, i expect (for weird reasons) more ppl to show up in future fleet combat.
trouble with frigates and cruisers is their dependance on maneuvering during combat and their low resistance to fire. both bad with low framerate (and i surely know). at least you loose less...
anyway, still a reason to fix shipclasses and i completly agree with the rest of your post.
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