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Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:07:00 - [121] I agree that there is way too much ISK in the game, and it is way too easy to make ISK as well. Losing a ship means nothing, it is replaced extremely easily. Losing many many ships per day everyday can hurt in a really nasty war over a long period of time, and that never happens in Empire. Insurance is a problem and the low cost of ISK available to purchase on the internet is another problem. RISE Recruitment Thread
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:08:00 - [122] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 06/06/2007 04:10:04 Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Better isk sink? Yes I think better ones are needed. More things should be introduced that, for example, that are merely status symbols (much like some faction & special event ships are). Something to spend isk on thats attarctive to do so but equally not all that consequential (or isk making) in having. I think invention or buying T2 BPO(s) is/was a good isk sink for some. IPOs & shares simularly are, although given the number of scams that happen its hardly an attarctive isk sink, though i think changes are coming. & if nothing else, fitting a ship as expensively as can afford is quite a good way to burn isk. I think you missed a point on the ISK Sink/Faucet issue, let me clarify it for you: Buying T2 BPO from a Player - Not an ISK Sink (even if you spend ISK to buy it) Buying a T2 Ship - Not an ISK Sink (even if you spend ISK to buy it) Invention: NOT an ISK Sink.... (It is a pain in the ARSE, but not a sink). IPO : Not an ISK Sink... Scams: NOT an ISK Sink... All of the above already redistribute the existing ISK, from one player to the next. Examples of ISK Sinks: POS = ISK Sink, you BUY things from the NPCs and they get destroyed by the POS. POS itself, when blown up is an ISK sink, since ISK left the game permanently. BPOs - ISK Sink. Since you buy BPOs from NPCs & ISK is gone. Taxes/Fees/Refinery Fees, etc, - ISK Sinks. Communication Charge: ISK Sink, since it takes ISK out of game permanently. Anytime you give ISK to the NPC Entity = ISk Sink. Something that takes ISK out of game permanently is an ISK sink. Examples of ISK Faucets: Insurance: Since it pays "fresh" ISK from "great beyond". Mining/Ratting/Mission Running: make new "fresh" ISK come into the game. Eve's economy is based on the Sink/Faucet principal. Theoretically they should be well balanced, and I think, at the moment we are still within the balance. But, I think that ISK faucets have well outpaced ISK sinks - as such more ISK sinks should be introduced. Originally by: Redundancy We call anything that introduces money into the economy an ISK Faucet and anything that takes it out again an ISK Sink. I hope that clarified some points for you. We need more ISK sinks, or modification of existing ISK sinks, to prevent EVE economy from overheating/growing too rapidly, because that invariably leads to a recession, inflation, etc, despite seeming prosperity in the beginning.
Bluestealth Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:31:00 - [123] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. I suggested removing insurance a long time ago as well... I think I got flamed for it. It really MUST GO.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:47:00 - [124] Edited by: Mr Adequate on 06/06/2007 05:50:51 Wealth taxation is of course a reasonable ISK sink; empires don't run without money, but it wouldn't be any fun if there weren't any escapes for the truly rich and infamous. Step 1. Introduce wealth taxation This is an exponentially increasing tax rate, eg. the poor pay little ; the rich pay lots. The tax is charged by the characters home nation on a weekly / monthly basis. Step 2. Introduce Nationhood and citizenship If you have sovereignty over a system you can apply for "nationhood" status and set your own wealth taxes. Thus creating a loophole for the super rich. They can escape to a cheaper nation and become a citizen. But if the nation charges too little or is poorly run (eg. does not pay tribute to bigger neighbors or fight its way out of corners) it will likely be overrun; indirectly driving the overall tax rate up. Charge too much and nobody wants to be a citizen Thus giving the rich an interest in investing their money in the protection of their offshore assets. An earlier Bob discussion mentioned a member fee of 100 million p/month and ratting taxes -- just to put this into perspective. Nationhood is probably good for another reason -- what is the point of being a CEO if your company stretches over galaxy's? You'd better be off as "emperor" or "king". There are quite a few loopholes here -- one of course would be to keep your assets in inventory stock not ISK. [Edit] Why not just apply this to the players company? The parent company can reside in empire and thus has no risk. The loss of sovereignty is a risk required to make this work -- otherwise there is no need to spend money on self preservation/expansion by the "nation".
xeom Exit 13 Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:19:00 - [125] Yea lets remove ship insurance so we can totally nerf the active PVPer and buff the macro 0.0 npcer. The only thing that should have insurance removed are cap ships ANY cap ship should not get insurance. --- 8) The coolest smiley ever!
Azirapheal Amarr kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:33:00 - [126] reading through this lengthy post from end to end before i make my response.. now there be a frst i tell you! it all generally seems to balance on the fountain/faucet curry/toilet theory. as an ardent pvper (that has never had any luck ratting btw, i think ive seen 3 dread spawns, that all dropped tags and ammo - worthless) i can quite safely say, that unless you gank at gates for maximum efficiency it is incredibly hard to turn a profit, you go in with a 140 million ship and gank that 5 mill caracal, and while you are looting his corpse his 3 mates jump you and whip it all away (your ship) its a bummer. to compensate for the fact that i pvp i have 2 alts - one who isa (very) successful trader, about 7 months older than azi - and the otehr that produces ammo and weapons for my pvp purposes, leaving azi only truly with the cost of the ship and named/t2 mods where i want them. tho point im trying to make is thus - azi is relatively poor, and without my highsec alt floating around wtfbbqpwning markets i would not be able to fund my pvp habit (only now do i consider myself to about break even on the pvp front, after over a year) people have proposed scrapping insurance, increasing isk sinks etc etc. but the only truly rich people (apart from macroers) that i see are either the old school t2 lottery winners, or the empire mission runners. why is this? 1) high sec is too safe - yes there are highly organised groups of suicide gankers picking on wealthy idiots that decide to ship their brand new slave set in a shuttle, get scanned and popped and eys there are people jet mining and getting griefed when they take their ore back - but fundamentally it is too safe. what i propose to amend this (and thus start moving isk around the economy more) is to make highsec LESS safe - removal of concorde as per tobias sjodins suggestion over in crime and punishment being one method. booting players greater than 1 month old from non-wardecable npc corps - maybe putting them into no-corps - free runners not trusted by the state and shootable by anyone without repercussion (ohnoes a gallente spy if in caldari space etc) this both prevents noobcorp isk farmers whoring missions in safety (and thus generating 15 hours a day worth of isk) and forces wealthy inhabitants of the noob corps (like my trader) to look to other players for protection - etc allowing greater integration of players with one another. space is big, vast even. concord cannot spawn and protect people afking through highsec (.5-.9) from an RP pov - sapce is just too big to enforce in this manner. an i KNOW that if the bears (as wel las the pvpers that maintain high sec statuses) are able to be hit more often, they will ahve to spend more and more isk on themselves etc, which can be funneled into a faucet. and one last suggestion to allow people to take more risks to earn their reward cut high sec off. as it currently stands you can get to pretty much any highsec system, completely ignoring lowsec in its entirety provided you are prepared to make extra jumps = low sec alot of it is cut off from eachother - even jsut lowering all .5 .6 down to .4 will create highsec islands for the empires with lowsec imbetween, forcing interaction and losses and generating a flow of isk currently held in either high sec, or 00 right, going to sleep, law exam in a few hours Originally by: CCP Wrangler you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:54:00 - [127] Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:38:00 - [128] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Trevedian Suggestions? Comments? Quite apart from allways seeing old, broke PvPers in this game - there's inflation and it's directly caused by CCP. No more need be said. Actually, its not inflation. Stuff is not getting more expensive iskwise, people just have more isk. Its economic growth and increased 'labour productivity'. Which is logical in itself. When I came to 0.0 about 15 months ago, I had to warp out repeatedly to kill certain triple BS spawns. A month later, I could tank them and kill them => productivity increase. Another month later, I could kill them 30% faster due to better skills and a better fitted ship => productivity increase. Same with miners, and that is getting another boost soon. When I first started playing, if I wanted to mine it would be in a badger or an osprey. A year later (if I would focus on mining atm), I could field a skilled CBC tank with mining mods, 2 hulk capable characters and a hauler that brings in more than a full can each run, and I mine much more valuable minerals. What people are describing here is economic growth, and the way the game is currently going with ever greater focus on capital ships, we need that productivity in order to be able to follow the 'path' set out by CCP. We can agree or disagree with that path, but nerfing income now would cause problems. ------------------------------------------------ Simple spelling lessons for forum posters: A point is moot, not mute Guerilla tactics are different from [red]g
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:06:00 - [129] Originally by: James Duar Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change. Well, given that goods prices and ISK influx does not, in fact, appear to go hand in hand, it does have an influence on production - what kind of products are being bought and so forth. People seem to be increasingly able to by what is considered luxury items. So I think everyone else should debate the effects and/or if it needs change, if its ok with you?
Bentula	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:09:00 - [130] Removing insurance would be quite a ISK sink but wouldnt actually change anything apart from noobs having a harder time. I know plenty of people that fly nothing but Hacs and CS, or capitals. Those people already have no insurance(well capitals technically have but its so rare to loose them) and it doesnt bother them in the slightest. Personally i wouldnt care for insurance anyway, i dont loose enough BS to really make it matter and im sure many others are in a similar position. So dont take insurance away, yes its a isk sink, but its going to take the money from the wrong people. The rich people dont care either way and the new/poor players have to spend even more of their time grinding to compete. If ccp wants to improve the isk sink in the game they could just increase the costs of the npc sold pos components and allow corps to tax things like trading or contracts.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:28:00 - [131] Originally by: James Duar QFT... And actually, creating more isk sink will do the opposite of what is generally wanted : make mission runners richer, while all fixed rewards (mission / bounties) become more important. CCP ! Delete ISK sinks so mining / production / looting can finally be profitable !
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:39:00 - [132] I still got a biased feeling that poeple who talk about "to much isk" are poeple who dont pvp, just make isk all time, buy shiny ships that they put to hangar so they can look at them or something. In that case ofc i can believe you got to much isk, but you will alwys have and thats natural... Now all my friends from 0.0 without t2 bpo i know are or constantly broke or just ok.They never have to much isk.Pvp is the drain and its an ultra drain in 0.0 . If yuo dont do it sure you will have tons of isk, but eve is designed with pvp as main feature. Im here from start of the game and im constantly broke, just recently decided to go solo more or less so i have more time for making isk and fianlly earned for my first carrer....Never had time while in alliances, pvp constantly took the isk i earned... - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:52:00 - [133] Originally by: Bentula Removing insurance would be quite a ISK sink but wouldnt actually change anything apart from noobs having a harder time.ts. Another one who dont understand what is "isk sink". Removing insurance WILL NOT introduce ISK sink. Becouse, obviosly, no ISK left the game that way. It will shut up isk inflow thought, that may be also not bad. ============================================== 1 Titan is ok, 2 kills any fun, 3 make peoples quit eve. No wonder online numbers decline for 3rd month.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:00:00 - [134] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: James Duar Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change. Well, given that goods prices and ISK influx does not, in fact, appear to go hand in hand, it does have an influence on production - what kind of products are being bought and so forth. People seem to be increasingly able to by what is considered luxury items. As was pointed out above - this is economic growth, it's an increase in New Edens GDP. Inflation is really pretty well balanced in EVE, but the game acts as a fairly deep economic simulator with some rather funny externalities and consumer habits so the valuation of things gets seriously skewed. This happens in the real world too, but to a lesser extent.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:17:00 - [135] Just to answer one arguement here about loss of ships. Lets face it people, for a serious hardcore money grinder, its virtually impossible to lose a ship in 0.0 if you're willing to play the logoffski card, or have a reasonably intelligent safe spot and a cloaking device. A pure PvE player who's dedicated to the art of avoiding PvP combat will NOT lose their ship within a few months of training a well documented list of skills, no matter what the particulars of their grinding method happen to be.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:26:00 - [136] Originally by: Janu Hull Just to answer one arguement here about loss of ships. Lets face it people, for a serious hardcore money grinder, its virtually impossible to lose a ship in 0.0 if you're willing to play the logoffski card, or have a reasonably intelligent safe spot and a cloaking device. A pure PvE player who's dedicated to the art of avoiding PvP combat will NOT lose their ship within a few months of training a well documented list of skills, no matter what the particulars of their grinding method happen to be. A pure PVE player is unlikely to be contributing much of their obtained ISK to the economy in the first place though - and if the money never partakes in the economy, the it never affects it either.
icechip Caldari Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:43:00 - [137] Insurance should work like it does in real life, if you keep losing your ships you get points, So the cost of insurance of your ship goes up, then it gets to a point where they wont insure you because your a high risk factor and the only way to fix it is you fly without loosing your ships after a while. Your ships would have to get registered. So you would have a flying record. It would be kinda cool in a way. Then suicides would end up costing ppl after a while. Just a thought it would work it does in real life. 14 Million SP and still cant fly nothing---
Ion Flux No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:20:00 - [138] Here is an Idea for an Isk sink Have a doctor Labotomize( dig into yer skull) and implant skills into yer head at the cost of Billions simple and sweet?? Ion PS dont ask me to do the math
DeadDuck Amarr Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:21:00 - [139] Well regarding the Topic... I hear people saying about billions and stuff... my wallet just dont go up. I play every day and my biggest number in the wallet was about 600m. To much pew pew I guess Anyway I really dont care about my wallet. What do you want the isks for ? To fly a ship and have fun ... period. ------------------ Ex D2 proud member
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:21:00 - [140] The current economy of EVE has truly ruined alot of the enjoyment in EVE for me. I no longer get worried about losing a ship because it is easy to get enough ISK to replace it, if I don't already have it which I do. In a way, I'm reminded of games like WoW where I can die and I just don't care because I can easily get it all back. Even a casual player can get into a battleship reasonably quickly so it takes away from that sense of accomplishment of having worked to get it. I'm reminded of a term called 'munchkin' gaming when I think of how things were 4 years ago (if you remove all the bugs) to how things are now with the way people whined to have things changed and getting their way. I truly miss the spirit of the way things were compared to the 'status quo' of the way things are now. In essence, I feel like the developers sold out in their original vision.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:22:00 - [141] Reading these posts, I just have to laugh at how totally out of touch the "beta players" are with the reality of this game..... Too much isk??? WHAT A JOKE. It's like listening to billionaires talk about about unemployment. Their jaws are flapping, but they have no practical sense about the real world issues of the common man. (Apologies to Dark Shikari whom I respect, but...) The subject of 10/10 complexes and the T2 loottery (pun intended) and how they have completely unbalanced the game economics is something I have preached against for some time. Invention has done a great deal to reduce the T2 BPO cartel's grip, but these fixed 10/10 compexes are still pouring billions into the hands of the few who were here early enough to seize control. Yes I said "early" and not "skilled".. it took no "skill" of any kind for early players in this game to spawn-camp these complexes when they first appeared and sit and amass billions which they have used to control zero space. If all the people who accuse BOB of cheating want to know the secret of their success, they need look no further. Remove these sources from the game and the big fish become bottom feeders like the rest. The problem in this game is not that there is too much isk, but that the available sources of isk are concentrated in the hands of too few players by the way the game is structured. It is a problem of balance... not amount. As for all the comments about how easy it is to earn isk.... utter piffle! Anyone who has played this game for at least a year knows the truth. "It's a PvP game!... It's a PvP game.... It's a PvP game!!! PvP or go home !!"...... LOL... OK, if you say so... but everyone of your PvP characters is supported by an industrial base that is founded upon either BPO's or 10/10 complexes. Anyone that is not is not even a contender. If you ain't plugged into one of these two... you ain't jack! Rant over, flame on!
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:51:00 - [142] For isk sinks, low and no sec casinos. Also BPOs for implants, those were intended to be manufactured and with them being costly yet possible to build more people will fly implants in combat and losses will increase. Not neccessarily the faction implants. Hurting missionrunners you say, why not introduce other useful goods as rewards there instead, there should be no shortage of good supplements, reactions, advanced materials, refined ice products, rigs, capital ship componants, POS goods, rare skills... As for people becoming too rich, that's in part due to rich people congregating with other rich people as to not risk their wealth, see BoB and cronies. Also Known As
Arachidamia Matari People's Front	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:12:00 - [143] Removing all insurance would screw over newbs and pvp players, and wreck the current balance between t1 and t2 ships. It wouldn't solve anything. Though I will agree removing insurance for Concord kills (and perhaps 0.0 as well) is long overdue. As I see it, Eve has lost some of the balance in that 0.0 ratting/lvl4 missions are the form of income. You can (fairly safely) make stupid stupid amounts of isk in both, as well as generate large amounts of minerals reprocessing. Mining has little place, especially in low sec. The fact the newbie ship has a gun and a mining laser should be a clue as to what the original aimed balance was. If you ask me 0.0 ratting and lvl4's both need a hefty hit with the nerf bat, especially regarding reprocessing of loot. Then people might actually get back to you know.. actually mining. It's how you're supposed to get minerals after all. And when mining is worth doing in low sec, it's worth protecting. And then you've not only got more people into low sec you've got more people into pvp as well. Win win for everyone except the lone isk farmers grinding those lvl4's/0.0 rats. And I say this as someone who currently makes virtually all isk in ratting/lvl4's.
Zilkin Amarr adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:22:00 - [144] There is definetly too much isk. I have to say though removing insurance would hurt the already poor most, the people who do almost nothing but pvp and newbs. I think we need to reduce the isk coming from missioning and plexes also I think raising broker/contract fees a small amount might be a good idea. A bit different isk sink might be some kind of npc run casino where players could waste their isk.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:25:00 - [145] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. I agree, whats up with that? All these so called tough guys saying how EVE is awsome because you get real loss, so what's up with insurance. And what stupid company would give you money for a ship you bring into battle and war? I never get insurance Gankers & pirates get insurance, what loosers! lol. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:29:00 - [146] Originally by: Zilkin There is definetly too much isk. I have to say though removing insurance would hurt the already poor most, the people who do almost nothing but pvp and newbs. I think we need to reduce the isk coming from missioning and plexes also I think raising broker/contract fees a small amount might be a good idea. A bit different isk sink might be some kind of npc run casino where players could waste their isk. Gankers stay rich because of insurance, and when they do it in low sec they do not loose their ship mostly. I mean come on, if you are in a HaC with a tank with Drones, and attacking a miner you think you are gong to loose your ship? The gankers are in control, at least get rid of insurance if you are the one to instagate the fight. It makes sense anyways. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Pimm Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:43:00 - [147] One of the side effects of making ISK harder to acumulate will be the exponential increase in ISK sellers and buyers. And that's a real problem. I'm quite amazed that there has not been some sort of mailbomb ISK advertisement like in WoW.
Hel Wintersbane	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:19:00 - [148] Can't CCP be creative and come up with an isk sink? Jove Clones that look nice and cost loads and don't do much else would exhaust alot of isk, etc.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:33:00 - [149] I said it once and i'll say it again ---station can BPC's--- (not bpos) for all those guys out in 0.0 who would love to be able to organize their loot. I would be willing to pay a fairly large amount for a 10-12 run BPC and I know many more who feel the same. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:36:00 - [150] just remove insurance. completely. i see it as a flaw in the game that insurance always pays out more than you invest. if you remove it you effectively remove some of the isk injection into the economy. this in itself might not be enough. but it would get you some of the way or maybe keep the insurance, but make it increasingly worse the bigger your ship. then the new players wouldn't lose much, only the older ones would. __________________________________ need a new sig :(

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