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Hathi Task Force Zener	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:56:00 - [61] Before everyone decides to nerf isk for all just remember the one unique feature of EVE is the skill system. Not all old players are rich, not all players have time to make huge piles of isk. Insurance is needed for the poorer & the noobs. Losing a frigate early on hurts, much the same as a carrier later in the game. Clones already too expensive at the higher levels. And they're about the only thing everyone has to buy unless you want to lose skills. It's an isk balance that people seem to want (need?). Why?
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:06:00 - [62] Edited by: Ralara on 05/06/2007 20:05:54 I think there is far too much isk in game. These days unless I have 200-300m isk just "spare", I feel naked, and im only 18 months into playing. Hell there's been a time when I could afford 2 or 3 totally deadspace / faction fitted dreads / carriers, jeebus, i could half afford a mothership, and that was from doing LEVEL 4 MISSIONS for TWO MONTHS I was flying around in a standard raven worth 2 billion isk just because I could I mean, even now, my crow, is worth... crow...... 20m MWD....... 75m Warp Dis.. 180m Dom Over D 300m (x3) Rigs...... 100m Other..... 30m Total..... 705m I mean, that's more or less standard for me... seriously, the fact that I don't blink if I lose it is... scary. Cos I can make it back in 2 or 3 days and that's if I can't buy it all outright. I've got 20 tech 2 fitted interceptors "ready to go", 3 fully tech 2 fitted ratting ravens, about 30 or 40 tech 2 frigates of various kinds all kitted out... I'm not trying to brag, I'm saying something has gone wrong somewhere! there needs to be far more isk sinks in the game, but also I think they need to be "top heavy" - making poor players pay the same as rich players wont really help in many ways.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Ralara Edited by: Ralara on 05/06/2007 20:05:54 I think there is far too much isk in game. These days unless I have 200-300m isk just "spare", I feel naked, and im only 18 months into playing. Hell there's been a time when I could afford 2 or 3 totally deadspace / faction fitted dreads / carriers, jeebus, i could half afford a mothership, and that was from doing LEVEL 4 MISSIONS for TWO MONTHS I was flying around in a standard raven worth 2 billion isk just because I could I mean, even now, my crow, is worth... crow...... 20m MWD....... 75m Warp Dis.. 180m Dom Over D 300m (x3) Rigs...... 100m Other..... 30m Total..... 705m I mean, that's more or less standard for me... seriously, the fact that I don't blink if I lose it is... scary. Cos I can make it back in 2 or 3 days and that's if I can't buy it all outright. I've got 20 tech 2 fitted interceptors "ready to go", 3 fully tech 2 fitted ratting ravens, about 30 or 40 tech 2 frigates of various kinds all kitted out... I'm not trying to brag, I'm saying something has gone wrong somewhere! there needs to be far more isk sinks in the game, but also I think they need to be "top heavy" - making poor players pay the same as rich players wont really help in many ways. You have to take into consideration how much time you put into the game as well. You might very well be playing Eve 8 hours a day instead of having a job. Then you get loads of isk. The game should be balanced for the people who cant spend their entire lifes in the game in my opinion. And I believe it is. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:32:00 - [64] Personally I think this ISK inflation would solve alot of other non-bug related things that people complain about. For most of the people out there who don't have that much ISK, I would have to say the majority of them live in Empire whereas the really rich typically live in 0.0 (although I do know someone richer than me who only ever runs missions for ISK and I have 7B). You solve this inflation and you see less people selling GTCs for huge amounts of ISK. I knew a guy who ran 8 accounts and paid for them all via GTCs and got those GTCs by having nearly all his accounts doing his grinding for ISK. I'm not saying my suggestions earlier were perfect or ideal but you also get to see more people trying to establish themselves in 0.0. Refueling all those damn towers is a damn ISK sink if you aren't bringing in a good amount of ISK. It also increases the value of battleships and also promoting less blob warfare at the drop of a hat. You'd get to see more frigates and cruisers running around for the average day to day things instead of just taking a top end battleship just because battleships become more risky to lose. Having been around for this long and been through all the changes, I'm not seeing much of a downside here except EVE getting as exciting as it used to be. I stopped being afraid of losing a ship and my pod a very long time ago.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 05/06/2007 18:46:30 Originally by: Janu Hull One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. A single lump payment that for 12 weeks, if you lose the ship, you have a replacement hull sitting in the hangar where you clone. No money added, you still need to replace the components. This saves the insurance system from flooding the market with ISK in the event a ship ever does actually come in cheap enough that platinum insurance turns a profit. Nice idea, but where does that leave the ship builders ? And ,since they have to get the minerals from somewhere, the miners ? Miners still make their money selling to component farmers, but you do have a point about ship builders... I don't know the answer to that. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Red Gabba Use Of Weapons	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:34:00 - [66] Removing insurance would be silly, improving it would be sensible. insurance should be risk assessed based on, the amount of ships you lose (each claim for insurance increases the amount next time), how many wardecs are levelled at your corp/alliance, Time spent outside of concord control. Insurance needs a overhaul imo, and it could become a good ISK sink and far more workable.
Baccala	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:36:00 - [67] I've been on 4+ years... I live in an area and have every asset available to me to make more money than I can spend, but I don't have the time... so I'm not rich. It comes down to how much work you put into it. Now that hard Eve workers are getting rich, what's the problem? Its far better than being rich just because you got lucky in a lottery. Do we need isk sinks? NO ... a rich Eve is better Eve.
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:55:00 - [68] I've seen 19 billion ISK of my own in my personal wallet, currently and generally it hovers around 10 billion. However I'm fully aware that what I have is very, very little compared to the many players I see throwing billions and indeed tens of billions around on a daily basis, the gap between them and new players widens all the time and once you have that kind of cash you're never going to lose it. I've made a billion in 2 weeks in 0.0 ratting just a couple of hours a day and only looting choice items, the amount that hardcore ratters make must be obsecene. NPC bounties are way too high, ISK earned from missions, lp offers etc are way too high but how can we change it now? Nerfing these things will just make that gap wider and wider.
General Apocalypse Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: General Apocalypse I can't see to much isk floating around tbh . 500 M is my worst case scenarion and i i didn't had it now i woudn't be in EVE anymore . TBH the ppl that are to rich don't usualy pvp. You won't see a very day pvper whit to many bilions. Also the amount of isk in you wallet depends on the amount of time you spend makeing them (yaaaawn) wich is not very fun , maybe 10/10 plexes are a bit fun due to the chalange and background . The best way to eliminate isk fountains is to obliderate the macro raters that rat all day long in a Raven whit cloack . Also kiling farmers like Vorgon did help EVE a lot. Curently the DEV team is working on giving us the tools to eliminate the 23/7 ratters. After that i don't think the'll be 2 much isk floating around , don't forget that the t2 market took a big nose dive as well so no more isk cascade from that direction. You think 500 million is your WORST CASE SCENARIO?! I don't think I've ever had that much money at once before At last count, I had less than 20 million isk in my account. And I own 1 cruiser. A Celestis, of all things. War is a pricey old game for the lazy Well i can't pay whit $ for EVE so that reserve was spent to get me timecodes untill december. It was a hard choice but summer vacantion and finals means less EVE for me long skills and GTC saved me fro quiting EVE. Thank You SkyFlyer
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:58:00 - [70] Well certainly the debacle that was the original T2 lottery created some people who money is nothing to, and then there was the bugges complex spawns... but that dmg really cannot be undone.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:59:00 - [71] Personally I don't think there is too much ISK out there. If you go through any pirate/pvp phase your wallet can shrink very fast. Insurance can be an ISK sink as well if you never have to use it. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Plave Okice I've seen 19 billion ISK of my own in my personal wallet, currently and generally it hovers around 10 billion. However I'm fully aware that what I have is very, very little compared to the many players I see throwing billions and indeed tens of billions around on a daily basis, the gap between them and new players widens all the time and once you have that kind of cash you're never going to lose it. I've made a billion in 2 weeks in 0.0 ratting just a couple of hours a day and only looting choice items, the amount that hardcore ratters make must be obsecene. NPC bounties are way too high, ISK earned from missions, lp offers etc are way too high but how can we change it now? Nerfing these things will just make that gap wider and wider. If you don't mind me asking, where and what do you rat? Because thinking about it, I make maybe 20 million isk an hour, including loot excluding salvage, on an average day ratting guristas. At 2 hours a day 7 days a week, that'd be 280 million a week, so only half a billion in two weeks- half what you earn. I wonder what the disparity really is between different ratting regions? --------
Chr0nosX	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:02:00 - [73] It's mostly the PvPers which are poorer and the Mission runners/industry people which have more ISK. I would remove insurance if it was caused just by NPCs. I PvP and a billion is alot to me but I enjoy pvp and thats why I play the game, to have fun and enjoy myself.
stoats The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:05:00 - [74] They already had a great isk sink and way of removing ships/modules from the economy. Then alliance p got nerfed. Great job guys.
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Patch86 If you don't mind me asking, where and what do you rat? Because thinking about it, I make maybe 20 million isk an hour, including loot excluding salvage, on an average day ratting guristas. At 2 hours a day 7 days a week, that'd be 280 million a week, so only half a billion in two weeks- half what you earn. I wonder what the disparity really is between different ratting regions? Ratting in a -.08 Angel system with 38 belts. Usually one Domination spawn a day, I lived there 2 weeks (in that system not 0.0), the amount of cash people must make ratting in systems like for months or years is staggering when you think about it, hence spending 12 billion ISK on an Invul field or 8 billion ISK on a cap recharger when buying officer mods.
WhiskeyDP The Druids Green Robe Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:07:00 - [76] yes imo there is way too much isk ingame and have been so more or less since lvl 4 missions came. remove all insurance's would be one way. one other thing that i fond is strange is that while making isk have gotten easier stuff on market is still the same cost(t1 bpo's is one example. why not increase the cost on them with like 10x) ================== === eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:11:00 - [77] There are two things in-game which make you more powerful. One is ISK, the other is SP. Figure out some way to trade ISK for SP, and there you go. An ISK sink everyone can get behind.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:13:00 - [78] TAX NPC CORPS - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Toria Nynys There are two things in-game which make you more powerful. One is ISK, the other is SP. Figure out some way to trade ISK for SP, and there you go. An ISK sink everyone can get behind. Not totally true, anyone can join the game, buy a whole pile of GTC's, sell for billions of ISK, buy a 30 mill sp char and a buy a Rattlesnake. They'll still get popped when those triple civilian shield boosters can't keep up with the damage though (I've even seen killmails with civilian shield boosters on a dread). ISK helps, sp helps more, but knowledge is power.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:35:00 - [80] Mining doesn't generate isk. Ratting does. The bounties on the rats are FAR too high. Why are there bounties on 0.0 rats anyway? It is lawless area! Remove the bounties completely and instead introduce items which needs to be sold on the market like the alloys in the drone regions. Too many people ratting -> prices will drop and so the market is self regulating! In the other regions there is no such mechanism at all. ENDLESS NEW ISK! That is very bad. Also insurace needs to be cut down drastically - at least for the larger ships so that noobs might not be that badly hit. Furthermore the insurance payout for concorded ships must be completely removed! That is complete nonsense! And Eve needs lots of more isk sinks. Lots of more status symbols which are just expensive and shiny but otherwise not useful. Items to show that you are very rich but which don't upset the game balance. Maybe walking in station can help here And people must become aware that making tons of isk does not always mean that there are tons of new isk in the game. If you build stuff and sell it on the player market or if you trade on the player market you do not generate new isk.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:54:00 - [81] Isk? what is that? ooh yeah, that stuff thats in my wallet! I thought that was snow, cuz it seems to melt away as fast as i get it hahahahahahaa Yes i like to burn my isk, i buy expensive toys and stuff, i mean thats what it's there for for me, i buy toys to entertain myself Atm i have aprox 25 mill spread out of 2 chars CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:58:00 - [82] Originally by: Hathi Insurance is needed for the poorer & the noobs. Losing a frigate early on hurts, much the same as a carrier later in the game. Thats why I suggested an increase in actual production cost, increasing over ship size and tech levels. Lets say, and numbers are purely for example, that frigates production cost 1% of CCPs calculated mineral cost for each ship. 5% for cruisers, 10% for battecruisers, 15% for battleships, 25% for capitals. Tech 2 costs being quite a bit higher than their t1 counter parts. Same for modules. Again, numbers are drawn out of my ass. It could be explained with using established methods, mass production benefits, complicated procedures - I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. :) As that would be isk not coming back from insurance, it would mean that you have a relatively better turnaround on your isk, the lower you go in ship size and tech level. it won't hurt the new players much as they will still have insurance available and as they usually fly the small size t1 ships. It would make production a lot bigger isk sink than the small one I reckon it is now. It would not be an end all-be all solution, of course - and I can't quite agree with myself if it really would change ship picking behaviour. But I like the idea. :) (And it would open up an opportunity for industrial chars to specialise further with potential new skills?) Would like to hear if anyone can find side effects of this that might not be so desirable?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:04:00 - [83] 2 year ago i flew T1 or assault frigs. A bs was expensive, i even insured my taranis. Now i dont insure any ship i have, i just pimp em more. Stabber 5 mil, fitting 30 mil+ Dominix 50 mil, 3 pg rig 120 mil, faction smartbombs, dim nos another 100 mil. Including rest of fit thats a 300 mil, 25 mil payout bs. People adapt to there wallet. The boom is better and the isk wastage faaar bigger. Nothing wrong _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
milinkoee Bastage Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:04:00 - [84] Originally by: Corb I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. Totally agree. They should have nerfed the level 4s instead of boosting the belt rats in order to get parity. Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:09:00 - [85] Eve is an economy. It started when the first person flew into this new universe. Its up to the people to civilize it and make it profitable. Eve wasn't rich before, and to think that it can get too rich is absurd. ISK drives everything here, if you want isk sinks all you are really asking for is to slow down the development of the Eve universe. What is done is done... you can't fix one thing and leave out another. If you reduce bounties, you're only affecting the ratters and missioners. Take out insurance and you screw over the pvpers. All while the t2 producers are still making a killing. Lots of isk is a good thing for Eve.
Rhea Tard	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:13:00 - [86] Insurance Stuff In empire insurance works 100% as now, usual payouts. In Lowsec insurance only pays back 50% of the expected amount. In 0.0 insurance is non existant. Wait for the NPC delivery service, should help suck isk down the sink. Introduce smart complexes/spawns that KNOW their being chained, and let them cutoff for a few hours till the party breaks up, stops so many faction gear hunters reaping easy rewards. Get more high reward agents into lowsec. Make a corp bank or just add to the corp wallet features, that works pretty much like the normal corp wallet, that sucks in the % income from npc rewards etc, allow corp members to pay a set fee per week towards the corp "bank" and also allow whatever % of the total in that bank to be paid out to all of the bank donators in the corp per week (a sort of % interest payout), this way if corp members donate to their corp they get rewards for doing very little, and it wouldnt matter how they earned their own fee as long as they all benefit from it in the end.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:13:00 - [87] Originally by: Lord Frost Eve is an economy. It started when the first person flew into this new universe. Its up to the people to civilize it and make it profitable. Eve wasn't rich before, and to think that it can get too rich is absurd. ISK drives everything here, if you want isk sinks all you are really asking for is to slow down the development of the Eve universe. What is done is done... you can't fix one thing and leave out another. If you reduce bounties, you're only affecting the ratters and missioners. Take out insurance and you screw over the pvpers. All while the t2 producers are still making a killing. Lots of isk is a good thing for Eve. T2 produces don't create ISK, they only redistribute it. There is a big difference. Creating more ISK causes inflation. --23 Member--
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:21:00 - [88] Tax (old) players in NPCcorps ...and lower the awards from hisec missionrunning but that's another matter.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:23:00 - [89] Originally by: milinkoee Originally by: Corb I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. Totally agree. They should have nerfed the level 4s instead of boosting the belt rats in order to get parity. They HAVE nerfed level 4s. 1) 7 months ago I was getting better loot drops from level 2s than I get now from level 4s. At least I haven't got a Civilian Shield Booster from a battleship wreck since the last patch 2) Most newer level 4s are factional: No bounties. 3) Most level 4s have been re-written for "Need for Speed". Fewer ships have resulted in even less loot and less bounties. 4) Salvage has even taken a hit 2 patches ago, I get more salvage from running a 1/10 complex in HighSec than I do running a level 4. 5) ISK reward for completing the missions have decreased or held even while the rest of the rewards have dropped. Newer missions give less ISK for completion. Most of the level 4s have got to the point I have been running level 3s in my BCs because there is less of a chance of losing the ship, I can do more in my limited time (2-3 nights a week, 2 hours a night) and the financial rewards aren't much worse for the time put in. I get less loyalty points, but that is not pure cash. Even then a 1/10 or 2/10 complex will net as much ISK in the same amount of time as level 2s do, and over 2x the salvage of a level 3. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Alekseyev Karrde The Royal Guard	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:30:00 - [90] Just make insurence Smart. Have the different banking and insurence npc corps insure instead of one global insurence company. Then have your standing drop everytime an insurence contract ends in a pay out, with pay out being standings based. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -Alekseyev Karrde Ambassador, Fleet Commander =The Royal Guard= www.rgrocks.com/"=TRG=Public" EVE chat channel Now Recru

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